On Oct 14, 10:29*pm, wrote:
On Wed, 14 Oct 2009 16:00:59 -0700 (PDT), RicodJour



wrote:
On Oct 14, 5:56*pm, wrote:
On Wed, 14 Oct 2009 *RicodJour wrote:

About the comment of using a stud finder as a foolproof method of
finding wires, and scanning everywhere before nailing. *As Roger
mentioned, there's a top plate running along the wall, and there are
(toe)nails attaching the stud to the plate. *Nobody except a
blithering idiot would run a wire in a location that would require
them to drill through the (toe)nails. *More likely the wire was either
set into notches, or just draped or stapled up in the soffit.

And the "contractor" would still have known there was a possibility of
hitting wire if he had used his scanner first. The wire may not have
been running along the plate at all - it may (and most likely was)
have been coming THROUGH the plate to go down to a switch or
receptacle in the wall - and the nail ANYWHERE but where he put ir
would have been a total non issue.

You're putting another layer of drywall or paneling over an existing
wall. *Do you scan the entire room to locate the wires? *Do you scan
every stud and joist along its entire length? *How long does that
take? *What about if there were a pipe in the wall? *A wire that
wasn't live until a switch was flicked on?

Contract law is full of cases that were determined based on
"reasonable expectations". *Code is full of requirements that dictate
where and how wires should be run. *In the vast majority of cases its
not an issue as nothing ever happens - even if the wires are run
incorrectly. *You're backtracking and cherry-picking this one example
and using it to make a blanket statement that would suck down a lot of
time with very little benefit. *If 100 carpenters didn't scan the
walls, probably one or two would hit a live wire, none if it were run
correctly. *So to prevent the one occurrence you want all 100
carpenters to scan all the walls all of the time. *Please. *Why not
just recommend using construction adhesive to attach the trim? *That's
even safer!

Knowing there was a live wire in the immediate area, the nail would
have been moved 3 or 4 inches one way or the other and no problem..

Hey, any hints on who won last week's big game?

The fact of the matter is that someone ran a wire where it shouldn't
have been, or the guy installing the trim used too long of a nail.

When working in older homes in particular, you ASSUME there is a wire
there untill you prove to your satisfaction there is none. With
today's low-cost technology *readily available there is NO EXCUSE for
a contractor or a handyman to EVER put a nail , a drill, or a saw into
a live wire.

I've been swatting nails for 35 years. *I've never hit a live wire. *I
also have never used a scanner to scan all the surfaces. *If I did,
guess who'd be paying for my time? *Every job I did I'd have to charge
for that 'extra' service, and it would only pay off in extremely rare
cases. *I'd still get paid.

This all goes to risk management. *Do you want to pay up front to me,
whether or not there is a problem, or, _if_ there is a problem pay to
fix it? *A case could also be made that hitting the wire is doing the
owner a favor by locating a shoddy wiring job.

R

I look at the room and the layout of the electrics and say "where did
they connect that?" and I know whether the wire went up or down (or
both) from a switch or receptacle, and if wires run across between
receptacles through the sruds, and at what height. I also mark where
the studs are - putting in drywall screws where there is no stud does
no good at all. When hanging items I also try to locate hanger nails
in studs whenever possible - and with the studfinder I also know if
there is a metal pipe (or other metal article) in the wall, as well as
the wiriing and the location of the studs.

I then stay away from the location of wires and pipes when driving
screws or nails, and use extreme caution when opening a hole in a wall
where either exists.

Not very productive to cut a hole in a wall to install a box for a
light switch, only to find a forced air duct taking up all the space
either.

Helps to know where the "fire stops" are too, when trying to pull new
wiring into a wall. - and if other wires share the space before
attempting to drill through the "fire stop" to pull in a new wire. The
stud finder lets me know where they are and if they exist. Gives me an
idea how long the job might end up taking.

By "fire stop" I mean the 2X4 nailed in across between 2 studs,
usually between where you can access to feed a wire (whether attic or
basement) and the location of the switch/outlet/box you are trying to
connect to.

So it takes half an hour longer to do the job *(or even to quote it if
you are a contractor) - you KNOW what you are up against before it
happens - and believe me - THAT is good.

My Dad was a professional electrician - I worked with him many times
on both new construction and renos - and KNOW that wires are not
always in the center of the stud, and when they aren't they are not
always protected by a "scab plate". If you did the original wiring,
you have control over that. If you didn't, you don't..

I also know that not all electricians are as neat or logical in their
layout as others. My dad was a pro - many are not. If I need to work
in my house or a friend's house I don't just assume everything is as
it should be, or that I'm going to be "lucky"

Now, when you have to break out concrete to do drain work in a
basement, and you don't KNOW where the existing pipes run, That can be
a challenge. Last project I had my plumber look at it and give me his
"best guess" - then we laid out what we figured was a "safe" cut - cut
it with a diamond saw, and carefully broke it out with the Kango,
making sure not to let the chisel get in too deep. Good thing, because
the ABS pipe was NOT where we thought it was. and we could easily have
broken the pipe.

That's really my point. Just as someone else was saying in another
thread how a newbie DIYer tries to not poke any holes and makes small
access holes - how that's counterproductive and an actual waste of
time most of the time - I'm constantly evaluating the work I'm doing
for efficiency and risk/reward. I hardly ever use a stud scanner as I
use my other senses to locate the stud - sound and touch. I can hear
and feel how a hammer tapped on a wall changes as it crosses over a
stud. After that the studs are going to be on 16's. I could break
out the scanner and locate every stud, but that won't improve my final
product or increase my speed.

We appear to have some different ways of approaching a project - no
surprise there. I accept that you can't have it all spelled out,
there will always be surprises, and the really odd ones are totally
unavoidable no matter how carefully you think it through. If the
idiot who did the wacky installation did something stupid, it probably
won't be something you can deduce. At a certain point you just have
to jump in, and of course, trust your instincts.

R