Have a client with a house built in the '20s, originally knob and tube
wired but (partly) converted to more modren wiring methods. Basement
ceiling is exposed and where the majority of the house wiring is. Lots
of strange, non-standard and some clearly improper wiring exists the
"flying" splices between K&T wiring and NM or armored cable (no junction
box), and one place where someone just ran a single insulated wire (THHN
or whatever) as a neutral from one place to another. Plus exposed K&T
runs going everywhere, one right next to the hot-water shutoff valve.

So I've figured out pretty much what goes where and how to replace it
(mostly with runs of Romex, since it's not an occupied space).

But there's one thing about the old wiring that's puzzling to me.
Usually K&T runs are done with pairs of wires (Hot & neutral) running
alongside each other, and in most cases that's followed he a run up
into a wall will have a pair of wires going up into the subfloor.

But there are a couple of places where a *single wire* is routed up out
of the basement into the house above. In these cases, the wires are all
hots. No corresponding single neutral wire anywhere nearby. Presumably
the neutral side of the circuit is tied to the neutral of another pair
of wires.

This, of course, makes it difficult to map these circuits, since I can
only assume that the neutral connection is made to the neutral wire
corresponding to the hot wire. That's my operating assumption, anyhow:
my plan is to simply replace these single-wire runs with Romex, using
only the black wire. (Hmm, wonder if they make 12-1 Romex w/o ground?
Probably not.)

Anyone ever seen this situation in an older house?

--
Found--the gene that causes belief in genetic determinism

"David Nebenzahl" wrote in message
s.com...
Have a client with a house built in the '20s, originally knob and tube
wired but (partly) converted to more modren wiring methods. Basement
ceiling is exposed and where the majority of the house wiring is. Lots of
strange, non-standard and some clearly improper wiring exists the
"flying" splices between K&T wiring and NM or armored cable (no junction
box), and one place where someone just ran a single insulated wire (THHN
or whatever) as a neutral from one place to another. Plus exposed K&T runs
going everywhere, one right next to the hot-water shutoff valve.

So I've figured out pretty much what goes where and how to replace it
(mostly with runs of Romex, since it's not an occupied space).

But there's one thing about the old wiring that's puzzling to me. Usually
K&T runs are done with pairs of wires (Hot & neutral) running alongside
each other, and in most cases that's followed he a run up into a wall
will have a pair of wires going up into the subfloor.

But there are a couple of places where a *single wire* is routed up out of
the basement into the house above. In these cases, the wires are all hots.
No corresponding single neutral wire anywhere nearby. Presumably the
neutral side of the circuit is tied to the neutral of another pair of
wires.

This, of course, makes it difficult to map these circuits, since I can
only assume that the neutral connection is made to the neutral wire
corresponding to the hot wire. That's my operating assumption, anyhow: my
plan is to simply replace these single-wire runs with Romex, using only
the black wire. (Hmm, wonder if they make 12-1 Romex w/o ground? Probably
not.)

Anyone ever seen this situation in an older house?

--
Found--the gene that causes belief in genetic determinism

You need to ring it out and see where that conductor goes. It's probably
going to a switch, who's return takes another path. Check outside lights,
hall lights, or things like the oil burner , that may have an emergency
switch in the main house

David Nebenzahl wrote:
Have a client with a house built in the '20s, originally knob and tube
wired but (partly) converted to more modren wiring methods. Basement
ceiling is exposed and where the majority of the house wiring is. Lots
of strange, non-standard and some clearly improper wiring exists the
"flying" splices between K&T wiring and NM or armored cable (no junction
box), and one place where someone just ran a single insulated wire (THHN
or whatever) as a neutral from one place to another. Plus exposed K&T
runs going everywhere, one right next to the hot-water shutoff valve.

So I've figured out pretty much what goes where and how to replace it
(mostly with runs of Romex, since it's not an occupied space).

But there's one thing about the old wiring that's puzzling to me.
Usually K&T runs are done with pairs of wires (Hot & neutral) running
alongside each other, and in most cases that's followed he a run up
into a wall will have a pair of wires going up into the subfloor.

But there are a couple of places where a *single wire* is routed up out
of the basement into the house above. In these cases, the wires are all
hots. No corresponding single neutral wire anywhere nearby. Presumably
the neutral side of the circuit is tied to the neutral of another pair
of wires.

This, of course, makes it difficult to map these circuits, since I can
only assume that the neutral connection is made to the neutral wire
corresponding to the hot wire. That's my operating assumption, anyhow:
my plan is to simply replace these single-wire runs with Romex, using
only the black wire. (Hmm, wonder if they make 12-1 Romex w/o ground?
Probably not.)

Anyone ever seen this situation in an older house?


I'm pretty sure you can't run a single wire.

"All conductors of the same circuit and, where used, the grounded
conductor and all equipment-grounding conductors and bonding conductors
shall be contained within the same raceway, auxiliary gutter, cable
tray, cablebus assembly, trench, cable, or cord, unless otherwise permitted"

If you google appropriate portions of the code quoted above you can
learn more, including the rationale.

On 9/10/2009 5:09 PM Mike Paulsen spake thus:

David Nebenzahl wrote:

But there are a couple of places where a *single wire* is routed up out
of the basement into the house above. In these cases, the wires are all
hots. No corresponding single neutral wire anywhere nearby. Presumably
the neutral side of the circuit is tied to the neutral of another pair
of wires.

This, of course, makes it difficult to map these circuits, since I can
only assume that the neutral connection is made to the neutral wire
corresponding to the hot wire. That's my operating assumption, anyhow:
my plan is to simply replace these single-wire runs with Romex, using
only the black wire. (Hmm, wonder if they make 12-1 Romex w/o ground?
Probably not.)

Anyone ever seen this situation in an older house?

I'm pretty sure you can't run a single wire.

"All conductors of the same circuit and, where used, the grounded
conductor and all equipment-grounding conductors and bonding conductors
shall be contained within the same raceway, auxiliary gutter, cable
tray, cablebus assembly, trench, cable, or cord, unless otherwise permitted"

I believe you. However, think about it: the only way to rectify the
situation so as to bring it in line with the current code would be to
rip out the existing wiring in the walls of the house and replace it.

I can tell you that ain't gonna happen in this case.

What I plan to do will make it safer than it is now and satisfy the
client, plus make it possible for them to insulate under their floor
(which can't be done now since K&T wiring cannot be embedded in insulation).

By the way, in answer to another respondent, I have figured out where
that single hot wire goes: I cut it, and found that most of the lighting
in the front part of the house quit working.


--
Found--the gene that causes belief in genetic determinism

David Nebenzahl wrote:
On 9/10/2009 5:09 PM Mike Paulsen spake thus:

David Nebenzahl wrote:

But there are a couple of places where a *single wire* is routed up
out of the basement into the house above. In these cases, the wires
are all hots. No corresponding single neutral wire anywhere nearby.
Presumably the neutral side of the circuit is tied to the neutral of
another pair of wires.

This, of course, makes it difficult to map these circuits, since I
can only assume that the neutral connection is made to the neutral
wire corresponding to the hot wire. That's my operating assumption,
anyhow: my plan is to simply replace these single-wire runs with
Romex, using only the black wire. (Hmm, wonder if they make 12-1
Romex w/o ground? Probably not.)

Anyone ever seen this situation in an older house?

I'm pretty sure you can't run a single wire.

"All conductors of the same circuit and, where used, the grounded
conductor and all equipment-grounding conductors and bonding
conductors shall be contained within the same raceway, auxiliary
gutter, cable tray, cablebus assembly, trench, cable, or cord, unless
otherwise permitted"

I believe you. However, think about it: the only way to rectify the
situation so as to bring it in line with the current code would be to
rip out the existing wiring in the walls of the house and replace it.

I can tell you that ain't gonna happen in this case.

What I plan to do will make it safer than it is now and satisfy the
client, plus make it possible for them to insulate under their floor
(which can't be done now since K&T wiring cannot be embedded in
insulation).

By the way, in answer to another respondent, I have figured out where
that single hot wire goes: I cut it, and found that most of the lighting
in the front part of the house quit working.


In the town I went to college in (long before they tore them all down to
put up 4plexes for rich yuppie kid students), there were lots
of older K&T era houses split up into student slum housing. Most common
approach was to disconnect and abandon the K&T in place, and rewire the
house with conduit and/or raceway on the walls.

Is this a viable temporary workaround in your situation? A conduit riser
in the back of a closet to small subpanels, and then out like a
spiderweb into the rooms? Not pretty, but livable, and a lot cheaper
than opening walls.

Oh, and on that single wire? By any chance, was the house old enough
that it originally had gas lights? I have seen once or twice, a
cheapjack conversion, where they used the old gas lines as the return
path....

--
aem sends...

On Thu, 10 Sep 2009 16:43:09 -0700, David Nebenzahl
wrote:

Have a client with a house built in the '20s, originally knob and tube
wired but (partly) converted to more modren wiring methods. Basement
ceiling is exposed and where the majority of the house wiring is. Lots
of strange, non-standard and some clearly improper wiring exists the
"flying" splices between K&T wiring and NM or armored cable (no junction
box), and one place where someone just ran a single insulated wire (THHN
or whatever) as a neutral from one place to another. Plus exposed K&T
runs going everywhere, one right next to the hot-water shutoff valve.

So I've figured out pretty much what goes where and how to replace it
(mostly with runs of Romex, since it's not an occupied space).

But there's one thing about the old wiring that's puzzling to me.
Usually K&T runs are done with pairs of wires (Hot & neutral) running
alongside each other, and in most cases that's followed he a run up
into a wall will have a pair of wires going up into the subfloor.

But there are a couple of places where a *single wire* is routed up out
of the basement into the house above. In these cases, the wires are all
hots. No corresponding single neutral wire anywhere nearby. Presumably
the neutral side of the circuit is tied to the neutral of another pair
of wires.

This, of course, makes it difficult to map these circuits, since I can
only assume that the neutral connection is made to the neutral wire
corresponding to the hot wire. That's my operating assumption, anyhow:
my plan is to simply replace these single-wire runs with Romex, using
only the black wire. (Hmm, wonder if they make 12-1 Romex w/o ground?
Probably not.)

Anyone ever seen this situation in an older house?

Typical "ring wiring" In the low current requirements of years gone by
it was not uncommon. The first house my folks bought in 1958 only had
2 circuits. All K&T, and the "live" was connected to the fuse at both
ends. There had been NO modifications made in over 50 years (house was
85 when we got it) and my dad, being an electrician, rewired
EVERYTHING within the first 6 months to a year.

On 9/10/2009 7:34 PM spake thus:

On Thu, 10 Sep 2009 16:43:09 -0700, David Nebenzahl
wrote:

But there's one thing about the old wiring that's puzzling to me.
Usually K&T runs are done with pairs of wires (Hot & neutral)
running alongside each other, and in most cases that's followed
he a run up into a wall will have a pair of wires going up into
the subfloor.

But there are a couple of places where a *single wire* is routed up
out of the basement into the house above. In these cases, the wires
are all hots. No corresponding single neutral wire anywhere nearby.
Presumably the neutral side of the circuit is tied to the neutral
of another pair of wires.

This, of course, makes it difficult to map these circuits, since I
can only assume that the neutral connection is made to the neutral
wire corresponding to the hot wire. That's my operating assumption,
anyhow: my plan is to simply replace these single-wire runs with
Romex, using only the black wire. (Hmm, wonder if they make 12-1
Romex w/o ground? Probably not.)

Anyone ever seen this situation in an older house?

Typical "ring wiring" In the low current requirements of years gone by
it was not uncommon. The first house my folks bought in 1958 only had
2 circuits. All K&T, and the "live" was connected to the fuse at both
ends.

Apparently this house has a couple of partial "ring" circuits in
addition to more conventional (by U.S. standards) wiring.



--
Found--the gene that causes belief in genetic determinism

On Thu, 10 Sep 2009 19:47:25 -0700, David Nebenzahl
wrote:

On 9/10/2009 7:34 PM spake thus:

On Thu, 10 Sep 2009 16:43:09 -0700, David Nebenzahl
wrote:

But there's one thing about the old wiring that's puzzling to me.
Usually K&T runs are done with pairs of wires (Hot & neutral)
running alongside each other, and in most cases that's followed
he a run up into a wall will have a pair of wires going up into
the subfloor.

But there are a couple of places where a *single wire* is routed up
out of the basement into the house above. In these cases, the wires
are all hots. No corresponding single neutral wire anywhere nearby.
Presumably the neutral side of the circuit is tied to the neutral
of another pair of wires.

This, of course, makes it difficult to map these circuits, since I
can only assume that the neutral connection is made to the neutral
wire corresponding to the hot wire. That's my operating assumption,
anyhow: my plan is to simply replace these single-wire runs with
Romex, using only the black wire. (Hmm, wonder if they make 12-1
Romex w/o ground? Probably not.)

Anyone ever seen this situation in an older house?

Typical "ring wiring" In the low current requirements of years gone by
it was not uncommon. The first house my folks bought in 1958 only had
2 circuits. All K&T, and the "live" was connected to the fuse at both
ends.

Apparently this house has a couple of partial "ring" circuits in
addition to more conventional (by U.S. standards) wiring.

What you soon learn working on old K&T houses is there is no such
thing as "conventional"

does the clients homeowners insurance know they have K&T?

The home really needs a complete rewire bringing up to current code

once you muck with this a future fire can see you on the hook for
damages and insurtance company can go after you.........

K&T is very obsolete and what of attic insulation? as you said you
cant imbed K&T in insulation and the roof is the largest loss of heat
in a home......

you say client, are you doing repairs there?

bob haller wrote:
does the clients homeowners insurance know they have K&T?

The home really needs a complete rewire bringing up to current code

once you muck with this a future fire can see you on the hook for
damages and insurtance company can go after you.........

K&T is very obsolete and what of attic insulation? as you said you
cant imbed K&T in insulation and the roof is the largest loss of heat
in a home......

you say client, are you doing repairs there?

their insurance, like mine, probably couldn't care less.

On Sep 11, 12:34�am, Steve Barker wrote:
bob haller wrote:
does the clients homeowners insurance know they have K&T?

The home really needs a complete rewire bringing up to current code

once you muck with this a future fire can see you on the hook for
damages and insurtance company can go after you.........

K&T is very obsolete and what of attic insulation? as you said you
cant imbed K&T in insulation and the roof is the largest loss of heat
in a home......

you say client, are you doing repairs there?

their insurance, like mine, probably couldn't care less.

GUARANTEED they will if theres a fire. you having been the last to
work on the wiring will be on the hook. are you insured? liability if
theres a fire? are you a registered electrician?

besides TODAY most insurance companies wouldnt take on new customers
with K&T

insurance is risk adverse

bob haller wrote:
does the clients homeowners insurance know they have K&T?

The home really needs a complete rewire bringing up to current code

once you muck with this a future fire can see you on the hook for
damages and insurtance company can go after you.........

K&T is very obsolete and what of attic insulation? as you said you
cant imbed K&T in insulation and the roof is the largest loss of heat
in a home......

The only links I remember on K&T (originally posted by Phil Munro) a
http://www.waptac.org/sp.asp?id=7190
is a report to the Illinois Department of Commerce and Community Affairs
on adding building insulation around existing K&T wiring. No record of
hazard was found in the large number of K&T installations that had
insulation added around them. (Larry Seekon, whose comments are quoted,
was head electrical inspector in Minneapolis.)

http://web.archive.org/web/20040825060154/http://www.maine.gov/pfr/ins/hearing_2003-13680.htm
or
http://tinyurl.com/297uk7
is the record of a complaint to the Maine state Bureau of Insurance by a
homeowner against an insurance company. The insurance company denied
renewal of a policy based on K&T wiring. The insurance company was
ordered to renew the policy because the insurance company "provided no
justification for its position that knob and tube wiring per se
automatically provides grounds for nonrenewal".

In my opinion insurance rejection of K&T is the latest version of
redlining.

And if I remember right, the electricians in this newsgroup think K&T is
not significantly more hazardous than other wiring methods. If it has
been abused it can be a problem, as can other wiring methods.

--
bud--

David Nebenzahl wrote:
Have a client with a house built in the '20s, originally knob and tube
wired but (partly) converted to more modren wiring methods. Basement
ceiling is exposed and where the majority of the house wiring is. Lots
of strange, non-standard and some clearly improper wiring exists the
"flying" splices between K&T wiring and NM or armored cable (no junction
box), and one place where someone just ran a single insulated wire (THHN
or whatever) as a neutral from one place to another. Plus exposed K&T
runs going everywhere, one right next to the hot-water shutoff valve.

So I've figured out pretty much what goes where and how to replace it
(mostly with runs of Romex, since it's not an occupied space).

But there's one thing about the old wiring that's puzzling to me.
Usually K&T runs are done with pairs of wires (Hot & neutral) running
alongside each other, and in most cases that's followed he a run up
into a wall will have a pair of wires going up into the subfloor.

But there are a couple of places where a *single wire* is routed up out
of the basement into the house above. In these cases, the wires are all
hots. No corresponding single neutral wire anywhere nearby. Presumably
the neutral side of the circuit is tied to the neutral of another pair
of wires.

This, of course, makes it difficult to map these circuits, since I can
only assume that the neutral connection is made to the neutral wire
corresponding to the hot wire. That's my operating assumption, anyhow:
my plan is to simply replace these single-wire runs with Romex, using
only the black wire. (Hmm, wonder if they make 12-1 Romex w/o ground?
Probably not.)

Anyone ever seen this situation in an older house?


The only singe-wire runs you *should* have are ground wires added later
to an existing ungrounded circuit. I would recommend leaving any sound
K&T wiring going to the bedrooms and such alone. Original wiring that
was done right and not messed with. The mess that you're talking about,
I'd replace it all with new NM cable; abandon in place the stuff that's
hidden in the walls and tear out what's exposed in the basement. DO NOT
do that black-wire-only thing you are talking about.

Last time I checked (which was in 1995) K&T was an acceptable wiring
method in the electrical code, but not for new work. You could still
make repairs to old K&T and the NEC gave some details about it.

Maybe you could just cut those single wires and see what goes dead? :-)
(Probably switched lights or split outlets.)

Best regards,
Bob (not an electrician)

On 9/11/2009 9:27 AM bud-- spake thus:

bob haller wrote:

does the clients homeowners insurance know they have K&T?

The home really needs a complete rewire bringing up to current code

once you muck with this a future fire can see you on the hook for
damages and insurtance company can go after you.........

K&T is very obsolete and what of attic insulation? as you said you
cant imbed K&T in insulation and the roof is the largest loss of heat
in a home......

The only links I remember on K&T (originally posted by Phil Munro) a
http://www.waptac.org/sp.asp?id=7190
is a report to the Illinois Department of Commerce and Community Affairs
on adding building insulation around existing K&T wiring. No record of
hazard was found in the large number of K&T installations that had
insulation added around them. (Larry Seekon, whose comments are quoted,
was head electrical inspector in Minneapolis.)

http://web.archive.org/web/20040825060154/http://www.maine.gov/pfr/ins/hearing_2003-13680.htm
or
http://tinyurl.com/297uk7
is the record of a complaint to the Maine state Bureau of Insurance by a
homeowner against an insurance company. The insurance company denied
renewal of a policy based on K&T wiring. The insurance company was
ordered to renew the policy because the insurance company "provided no
justification for its position that knob and tube wiring per se
automatically provides grounds for nonrenewal".

In my opinion insurance rejection of K&T is the latest version of
redlining.

And if I remember right, the electricians in this newsgroup think K&T is
not significantly more hazardous than other wiring methods. If it has
been abused it can be a problem, as can other wiring methods.

Thank you very much for those useful links, which are a good antidote to
the previous poster's paranoia.

I must say, though, that as comforting as the findings there are (that
insulating around K&T wiring poses no dire threat), I won't do it. When
it comes to wiring I always like to err on the side of caution.

But yes, the previous poster's shrieks of alarm are unwarranted.
Properly done K&T wiring in good condition (as the wiring in this
particular house is) is no less safe than modren wiring methods.


--
Found--the gene that causes belief in genetic determinism

On 9/11/2009 10:00 AM zxcvbob spake thus:

David Nebenzahl wrote:

But there's one thing about the old wiring that's puzzling to me.
Usually K&T runs are done with pairs of wires (Hot & neutral) running
alongside each other, and in most cases that's followed he a run up
into a wall will have a pair of wires going up into the subfloor.

But there are a couple of places where a *single wire* is routed up out
of the basement into the house above. In these cases, the wires are all
hots. No corresponding single neutral wire anywhere nearby. Presumably
the neutral side of the circuit is tied to the neutral of another pair
of wires.

This, of course, makes it difficult to map these circuits, since I can
only assume that the neutral connection is made to the neutral wire
corresponding to the hot wire. That's my operating assumption, anyhow:
my plan is to simply replace these single-wire runs with Romex, using
only the black wire. (Hmm, wonder if they make 12-1 Romex w/o ground?
Probably not.)

Anyone ever seen this situation in an older house?

The only singe-wire runs you *should* have are ground wires added later
to an existing ungrounded circuit. I would recommend leaving any sound
K&T wiring going to the bedrooms and such alone. Original wiring that
was done right and not messed with. The mess that you're talking about,
I'd replace it all with new NM cable; abandon in place the stuff that's
hidden in the walls and tear out what's exposed in the basement. DO NOT
do that black-wire-only thing you are talking about.

But I have to if I want to get rid of the K&T runs as the homeowner
wants me to. Since I'll be replacing it with NM cable (which is what I
proposed--*NOT* just running a single black wire, like the person before
me who ran a single white wire several feet for a neutral
conductor)--it'll be as safe or safer than what was there before.

Last time I checked (which was in 1995) K&T was an acceptable wiring
method in the electrical code, but not for new work. You could still
make repairs to old K&T and the NEC gave some details about it.

Maybe you could just cut those single wires and see what goes dead? :-)
(Probably switched lights or split outlets.)

I already did that, and I thought I posted that here. When I cut the
single wire, all the lights in the front of the house--living room and
front porch--went out. No outlets, just lights. So I know what's on that
circuit. I just don't know exactly where neutral wire for that circuit
comes out. But since it'll all be replaced by NM anyhow, doesn't really
matter. I was hoping someone could comment authoritatively on that
anomaly (the single-wire feeds), but I guess not.


--
Found--the gene that causes belief in genetic determinism

David Nebenzahl wrote:
....
But yes, the previous poster's shrieks of alarm are unwarranted.

Indeed...

But, it's his personal vendetta it appears despite chastisement and
demonstration that he's simply just generally wrong on numerous previous
occasions as well...

--

On 9/11/2009 10:48 AM dpb spake thus:

David Nebenzahl wrote:

...
But yes, the previous poster's shrieks of alarm are unwarranted.

Indeed...

But, it's his personal vendetta it appears despite chastisement and
demonstration that he's simply just generally wrong on numerous previous
occasions as well...

Plus he's one of the few posters here with the annoying habit of never
quoting previous replies (small point, but not in his favor).

I will say that I think exercising due caution when doing electrical
work is important. I cringe when I see the numerous news reports of
houses burning down, just wondering whether it was an electrical fire
that was responsible. I don't *ever* want to be the cause of such a fire.

But that doesn't mean one has to be a total Cassandra about it either ...


--
Found--the gene that causes belief in genetic determinism

bob haller wrote:
On Sep 11, 12:34�am, Steve Barker wrote:
bob haller wrote:
does the clients homeowners insurance know they have K&T?
The home really needs a complete rewire bringing up to current code
once you muck with this a future fire can see you on the hook for
damages and insurtance company can go after you.........
K&T is very obsolete and what of attic insulation? as you said you
cant imbed K&T in insulation and the roof is the largest loss of heat
in a home......
you say client, are you doing repairs there?
their insurance, like mine, probably couldn't care less.

GUARANTEED they will if theres a fire. you having been the last to
work on the wiring will be on the hook. are you insured? liability if
theres a fire? are you a registered electrician?

besides TODAY most insurance companies wouldnt take on new customers
with K&T

BULL****. pure and simple bull****. Bob buddy, we've been down this
road before in this group about K&T wiring and your Bull**** theories
about insurance. I even ASKED my *new* insurance agent about this exact
thing, and he said "we could care less". He also told me they're not
concerned as to who worked on the wiring last, cause I told him I do all
my own work. So, why not just drop the bull**** insurance thing about
this type of wiring. There's absolutely NO documented evidence about
K&T wiring causing fires, there's absolutely NO documented evidence
about K&T wiring being covered with insulation being any more dangerous
than if not covered, AND there's absolutely NO documentation to
substantiate your bull**** claim that insurance companies will not
insure a house with K&T wiring. Why don't you just get off it? Did
your mom whip you with K&T wiring, or what? What is your big ****ing
deal anyway?

s

David Nebenzahl wrote:
On 9/11/2009 9:27 AM bud-- spake thus:

bob haller wrote:

does the clients homeowners insurance know they have K&T?

The home really needs a complete rewire bringing up to current code

once you muck with this a future fire can see you on the hook for
damages and insurtance company can go after you.........

K&T is very obsolete and what of attic insulation? as you said you
cant imbed K&T in insulation and the roof is the largest loss of heat
in a home......

The only links I remember on K&T (originally posted by Phil Munro) a
http://www.waptac.org/sp.asp?id=7190
is a report to the Illinois Department of Commerce and Community
Affairs on adding building insulation around existing K&T wiring. No
record of hazard was found in the large number of K&T installations
that had insulation added around them. (Larry Seekon, whose comments
are quoted, was head electrical inspector in Minneapolis.)

http://web.archive.org/web/20040825060154/http://www.maine.gov/pfr/ins/hearing_2003-13680.htm

or
http://tinyurl.com/297uk7
is the record of a complaint to the Maine state Bureau of Insurance by
a homeowner against an insurance company. The insurance company denied
renewal of a policy based on K&T wiring. The insurance company was
ordered to renew the policy because the insurance company "provided no
justification for its position that knob and tube wiring per se
automatically provides grounds for nonrenewal".

In my opinion insurance rejection of K&T is the latest version of
redlining.

And if I remember right, the electricians in this newsgroup think K&T
is not significantly more hazardous than other wiring methods. If it
has been abused it can be a problem, as can other wiring methods.

Thank you very much for those useful links, which are a good antidote to
the previous poster's paranoia.

I must say, though, that as comforting as the findings there are (that
insulating around K&T wiring poses no dire threat), I won't do it. When
it comes to wiring I always like to err on the side of caution.

But yes, the previous poster's shrieks of alarm are unwarranted.
Properly done K&T wiring in good condition (as the wiring in this
particular house is) is no less safe than modren wiring methods.


That's a fact jack. And covering it with insulation does nothing to it
either. Well, it might keep the mice and squirrels off it. LOL! As for
being a fire hazard, well a 14 ga wire on a 15a breaker is not going to
get hot, and it is almost always at least 10" away from it's partner
wire, so there's not much chance of a short, so I would go so far as to
say the K&T wiring methods in many ways are much safer than the
practices we use today.

David Nebenzahl wrote:
On 9/11/2009 9:27 AM bud-- spake thus:

bob haller wrote:

does the clients homeowners insurance know they have K&T?

The home really needs a complete rewire bringing up to current code

once you muck with this a future fire can see you on the hook for
damages and insurtance company can go after you.........

K&T is very obsolete and what of attic insulation? as you said you
cant imbed K&T in insulation and the roof is the largest loss of heat
in a home......

The only links I remember on K&T (originally posted by Phil Munro) a
http://www.waptac.org/sp.asp?id=7190
is a report to the Illinois Department of Commerce and Community
Affairs on adding building insulation around existing K&T wiring. No
record of hazard was found in the large number of K&T installations
that had insulation added around them. (Larry Seekon, whose comments
are quoted, was head electrical inspector in Minneapolis.)

http://web.archive.org/web/20040825060154/http://www.maine.gov/pfr/ins/hearing_2003-13680.htm

or
http://tinyurl.com/297uk7
is the record of a complaint to the Maine state Bureau of Insurance by
a homeowner against an insurance company. The insurance company denied
renewal of a policy based on K&T wiring. The insurance company was
ordered to renew the policy because the insurance company "provided no
justification for its position that knob and tube wiring per se
automatically provides grounds for nonrenewal".

In my opinion insurance rejection of K&T is the latest version of
redlining.

And if I remember right, the electricians in this newsgroup think K&T
is not significantly more hazardous than other wiring methods. If it
has been abused it can be a problem, as can other wiring methods.

Thank you very much for those useful links, which are a good antidote to
the previous poster's paranoia.

I must say, though, that as comforting as the findings there are (that
insulating around K&T wiring poses no dire threat), I won't do it. When
it comes to wiring I always like to err on the side of caution.

But yes, the previous poster's shrieks of alarm are unwarranted.
Properly done K&T wiring in good condition (as the wiring in this
particular house is) is no less safe than modren wiring methods.



I think the phrase "once you muck with this" is the key. It doesn't
matter whether you (in theory) do or do not make it any worse than it is
now. Once you touch it you may be held responsible for it.

Does local code/law require you to be a licensed electrician to do this
work? Does your liability insurance cover electrical work you perform?
Does the locale require permits? Will the owner's policy cover them if
non-permitted or non-inspected work results in damage?

"David Nebenzahl" wrote in message
s.com...


I already did that, and I thought I posted that here. When I cut the
single wire, all the lights in the front of the house--living room and
front porch--went out. No outlets, just lights. So I know what's on that
circuit. I just don't know exactly where neutral wire for that circuit
comes out. But since it'll all be replaced by NM anyhow, doesn't really
matter. I was hoping someone could comment authoritatively on that
anomaly (the single-wire feeds), but I guess not.


To trace the mystery wire get one of those AC circuit tester pen gizmos. If
I recall these will sniff out an active circuit under the plaster. So what
you do is kill all circuits except the mystery one and trace the wire runs.

--

Roger Shoaf

About the time I had mastered getting the toothpaste back in the tube, then
they come up with this striped stuff.

On Sep 11, 2:34�pm, Mike Paulsen wrote:
David Nebenzahl wrote:
On 9/11/2009 9:27 AM bud-- spake thus:

bob haller wrote:

does the clients homeowners insurance know they have K&T?

The home really needs a complete rewire bringing up to current code

once you muck with this a future fire can see you on the hook for
damages and insurtance company can go after you.........

K&T is very obsolete and what of attic insulation? as you said you
cant imbed K&T in insulation and the roof is the largest loss of heat
in a home......

The only links I remember on K&T (originally posted by Phil Munro) a
http://www.waptac.org/sp.asp?id=7190
is a report to the Illinois Department of Commerce and Community
Affairs on adding building insulation around existing K&T wiring. No
record of hazard was found in the large number of K&T installations
that had insulation added around them. (Larry Seekon, whose comments
are quoted, was head electrical inspector in Minneapolis.)

http://web.archive.org/web/20040825060154/http://www.maine.gov/pfr/in....

� or
http://tinyurl.com/297uk7
is the record of a complaint to the Maine state Bureau of Insurance by
a homeowner against an insurance company. The insurance company denied
renewal of a policy based on K&T wiring. The insurance company was
ordered to renew the policy because the insurance company "provided no
justification for its position that knob and tube wiring per se
automatically provides grounds for nonrenewal".

In my opinion insurance rejection of �K&T is the latest version of
redlining.

And if I remember right, the electricians in this newsgroup think K&T
is not significantly more hazardous than other wiring methods. If it
has been abused it can be a problem, as can other wiring methods.

Thank you very much for those useful links, which are a good antidote to
the previous poster's paranoia.

I must say, though, that as comforting as the findings there are (that
insulating around K&T wiring poses no dire threat), I won't do it. When
it comes to wiring I always like to err on the side of caution.

But yes, the previous poster's �shrieks of alarm are unwarranted.
Properly done K&T wiring in good condition (as the wiring in this
particular house is) is no less safe than modren wiring methods.

I think the phrase "once you muck with this" is the key. It doesn't
matter whether you (in theory) do or do not make it any worse than it is
now. �Once you touch it you may be held responsible for it.

Does local code/law require you to be a licensed electrician to do this
work? Does your liability insurance cover electrical work you perform?
Does the locale require permits? �Will the owner's policy cover them if
non-permitted or non-inspected work results in damage?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I asked state farm my homeowners carrier about K&T the agent reported
we cant write new policies for it.

A few years ago A friends homeowners company wenty out of business, he
HAD to have his home rewired since no other company would insure K&T

He also had to have a railing installed on some outside steps, repair
some cracked cement walk areas, dispose of debris stored under his
porch.

homeowners insurance has changed dramatically in the last 10 years

I really dont care what anyone does to their home. but a contractor or
home handyman should be very careful. its probably impossible to prove
who did what when to the wiring the OP admits was hacked repaired.

so there could be another unknown fault he doesnt know about but might
end up in legal trouble over that he didnt even do.

if theres a fire the wiring will be looked at carefully, legal defense
even if OP wins can easily cost thousands.

you were warned

On Fri, 11 Sep 2009 13:27:52 -0500, Steve Barker
wrote:

bob haller wrote:
On Sep 11, 12:34?am, Steve Barker wrote:
bob haller wrote:
does the clients homeowners insurance know they have K&T?
The home really needs a complete rewire bringing up to current code
once you muck with this a future fire can see you on the hook for
damages and insurtance company can go after you.........
K&T is very obsolete and what of attic insulation? as you said you
cant imbed K&T in insulation and the roof is the largest loss of heat
in a home......
you say client, are you doing repairs there?
their insurance, like mine, probably couldn't care less.

GUARANTEED they will if theres a fire. you having been the last to
work on the wiring will be on the hook. are you insured? liability if
theres a fire? are you a registered electrician?

besides TODAY most insurance companies wouldnt take on new customers
with K&T

BULL****. pure and simple bull****. Bob buddy, we've been down this
road before in this group about K&T wiring and your Bull**** theories
about insurance. I even ASKED my *new* insurance agent about this exact
thing, and he said "we could care less". He also told me they're not
concerned as to who worked on the wiring last, cause I told him I do all
my own work. So, why not just drop the bull**** insurance thing about
this type of wiring. There's absolutely NO documented evidence about
K&T wiring causing fires, there's absolutely NO documented evidence
about K&T wiring being covered with insulation being any more dangerous
than if not covered, AND there's absolutely NO documentation to
substantiate your bull**** claim that insurance companies will not
insure a house with K&T wiring. Why don't you just get off it? Did
your mom whip you with K&T wiring, or what? What is your big ****ing
deal anyway?

s
I beg to differ with you.
There is not an insurance company doing business in Ontario Canada
that will write new business on a house with
1) K&T wiring
or
2) aluminum wiring without electrical inspection proving either
compatible (coalr) devices or properly installed copper pigtails

ANd very few that will write new business on houses with
1) Cast iron waste stack

or
2) Galvanized water pipes.

Or non UL listed wood burning stoves or fireplaces

My daughter is assistant operations manager of a relatively large
general insurance brokerage (agency) here in Kitchener/Waterloo and
placing insurance on these types of properties is getting EXTREMELY
difficult.

On Fri, 11 Sep 2009 10:29:29 -0700, David Nebenzahl
wrote:

On 9/11/2009 9:27 AM bud-- spake thus:

bob haller wrote:

does the clients homeowners insurance know they have K&T?

The home really needs a complete rewire bringing up to current code

once you muck with this a future fire can see you on the hook for
damages and insurtance company can go after you.........

K&T is very obsolete and what of attic insulation? as you said you
cant imbed K&T in insulation and the roof is the largest loss of heat
in a home......

The only links I remember on K&T (originally posted by Phil Munro) a
http://www.waptac.org/sp.asp?id=7190
is a report to the Illinois Department of Commerce and Community Affairs
on adding building insulation around existing K&T wiring. No record of
hazard was found in the large number of K&T installations that had
insulation added around them. (Larry Seekon, whose comments are quoted,
was head electrical inspector in Minneapolis.)

http://web.archive.org/web/20040825060154/http://www.maine.gov/pfr/ins/hearing_2003-13680.htm
or
http://tinyurl.com/297uk7
is the record of a complaint to the Maine state Bureau of Insurance by a
homeowner against an insurance company. The insurance company denied
renewal of a policy based on K&T wiring. The insurance company was
ordered to renew the policy because the insurance company "provided no
justification for its position that knob and tube wiring per se
automatically provides grounds for nonrenewal".

In my opinion insurance rejection of K&T is the latest version of
redlining.

And if I remember right, the electricians in this newsgroup think K&T is
not significantly more hazardous than other wiring methods. If it has
been abused it can be a problem, as can other wiring methods.

Thank you very much for those useful links, which are a good antidote to
the previous poster's paranoia.

I must say, though, that as comforting as the findings there are (that
insulating around K&T wiring poses no dire threat), I won't do it. When
it comes to wiring I always like to err on the side of caution.

But yes, the previous poster's shrieks of alarm are unwarranted.
Properly done K&T wiring in good condition (as the wiring in this
particular house is) is no less safe than modren wiring methods.


EXCEPT it is not designed to handle the current requirements of
today's average home.

In a LOT of ways, it is actually SAFER (electrically) than current
wiring practices as the live and neutral are widely spaced.
Pretty hard to drive a nail through a wire and cause a short.

However, MANY older homes with K&T have NO BOXES. Therefore no "fire
enclosure" if a faulty device (switch , receptacle, or lamp base)
should start on fire. That's where the underwritters start having
fits. Particularly if there is flamable insulation around those wires.

On Fri, 11 Sep 2009 11:11:28 -0700, David Nebenzahl
wrote:

On 9/11/2009 10:48 AM dpb spake thus:

David Nebenzahl wrote:

...
But yes, the previous poster's shrieks of alarm are unwarranted.

Indeed...

But, it's his personal vendetta it appears despite chastisement and
demonstration that he's simply just generally wrong on numerous previous
occasions as well...

Plus he's one of the few posters here with the annoying habit of never
quoting previous replies (small point, but not in his favor).

I will say that I think exercising due caution when doing electrical
work is important. I cringe when I see the numerous news reports of
houses burning down, just wondering whether it was an electrical fire
that was responsible. I don't *ever* want to be the cause of such a fire.

But that doesn't mean one has to be a total Cassandra about it either ...


My younger brother's old house (old crappy farm house) burned down due
to an electrical fault. The house had a LOT of K&T wiring - but it
wasn't K&T that caused the fire. The old "shack" had a sagging summer
kitchen - and the ROMEX wire going from the main house to the addition
had a "shear failure" due to movement between the 2 parts of the
building. The wires rubbed through the insulation enough to cause heat
without blowing the breaker/fuse. (Think it was the stove cable).

Anyway, it got him a new house.

On Sep 11, 2:34*pm, Mike Paulsen wrote:
David Nebenzahl wrote:
On 9/11/2009 9:27 AM bud-- spake thus:

bob haller wrote:

does the clients homeowners insurance know they have K&T?

The home really needs a complete rewire bringing up to current code

once you muck with this a future fire can see you on the hook for
damages and insurtance company can go after you.........

K&T is very obsolete and what of attic insulation? as you said you
cant imbed K&T in insulation and the roof is the largest loss of heat
in a home......

The only links I remember on K&T (originally posted by Phil Munro) a
http://www.waptac.org/sp.asp?id=7190
is a report to the Illinois Department of Commerce and Community
Affairs on adding building insulation around existing K&T wiring. No
record of hazard was found in the large number of K&T installations
that had insulation added around them. (Larry Seekon, whose comments
are quoted, was head electrical inspector in Minneapolis.)

http://web.archive.org/web/20040825060154/http://www.maine.gov/pfr/in....

* or
http://tinyurl.com/297uk7
is the record of a complaint to the Maine state Bureau of Insurance by
a homeowner against an insurance company. The insurance company denied
renewal of a policy based on K&T wiring. The insurance company was
ordered to renew the policy because the insurance company "provided no
justification for its position that knob and tube wiring per se
automatically provides grounds for nonrenewal".

In my opinion insurance rejection of *K&T is the latest version of
redlining.

And if I remember right, the electricians in this newsgroup think K&T
is not significantly more hazardous than other wiring methods. If it
has been abused it can be a problem, as can other wiring methods.

Thank you very much for those useful links, which are a good antidote to
the previous poster's paranoia.

I must say, though, that as comforting as the findings there are (that
insulating around K&T wiring poses no dire threat), I won't do it. When
it comes to wiring I always like to err on the side of caution.

But yes, the previous poster's *shrieks of alarm are unwarranted.
Properly done K&T wiring in good condition (as the wiring in this
particular house is) is no less safe than modren wiring methods.

I think the phrase "once you muck with this" is the key. It doesn't
matter whether you (in theory) do or do not make it any worse than it is
now. *Once you touch it you may be held responsible for it.

Does local code/law require you to be a licensed electrician to do this
work? Does your liability insurance cover electrical work you perform?
Does the locale require permits? *Will the owner's policy cover them if
non-permitted or non-inspected work results in damage?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


I think all the above are very good questions. I would be damn
careful what I did to patch up or improve old K&T wiring which is
already a mess. And I would be certain to know the code, pull any
required permits and get any required inspections.

Just because a customer wants something done on the cheap doesn't mean
as a professional you should do it. If someone gets electrocuted or
the house burns down, you could very well be sued. And for a
professional the courts generally take the view that YOU are the
expert and should not be doing something half assed or on the cheap
that isn't really the right thing to do just because a client wants
it.

Also regarding the debate about insurance and K&T, a simple google for
"knob tube insurance" brings you lots of hits that say there most
certainly are issues of insurability with at least some insurance
companies.

On Sep 10, 11:05*pm, wrote:
On Thu, 10 Sep 2009 19:47:25 -0700, David Nebenzahl





wrote:
On 9/10/2009 7:34 PM spake thus:

On Thu, 10 Sep 2009 16:43:09 -0700, David Nebenzahl
wrote:

But there's one thing about the old wiring that's puzzling to me.
Usually K&T runs are done with pairs of wires (Hot & neutral)
running alongside each other, and in most cases that's followed
he a run up into a wall will have a pair of wires going up into
the subfloor.

But there are a couple of places where a *single wire* is routed up
out of the basement into the house above. In these cases, the wires
are all hots. No corresponding single neutral wire anywhere nearby.
Presumably the neutral side of the circuit is tied to the neutral
of another pair of wires.

This, of course, makes it difficult to map these circuits, since I
can only assume that the neutral connection is made to the neutral
wire corresponding to the hot wire. That's my operating assumption,
anyhow: my plan is to simply replace these single-wire runs with
Romex, using only the black wire. (Hmm, wonder if they make 12-1
Romex w/o ground? Probably not.)

Anyone ever seen this situation in an older house?

Typical "ring wiring" In the low current requirements of years gone by
it was not uncommon. The first house my folks bought in 1958 only had
2 circuits. All K&T, and the "live" was connected to the fuse at both
ends.

Apparently this house has a couple of partial "ring" circuits in
addition to more conventional (by U.S. standards) wiring.

What you soon learn working on old K&T houses is there is no such
thing as "conventional"- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I was trying to sort out the K&T wiring in my grandfathers house. I
followed a pair of wires through the attic thinking one was hot and
the other neutral. Wrong, both were hot and went to overhead lighting.
The switches were in the neutral side and these wires connected to a
pipe buried in the ground along side the house. Apparently this was
the neutral/ground buss. The current switches in the house were modern
switches but from some old photos taken in the 40sI learned they used
to be knife switches. Final solution was to just rip everything out
and rewire.

Jimmie

On 9/11/2009 2:53 PM spake thus:

On Fri, 11 Sep 2009 10:29:29 -0700, David Nebenzahl
wrote:

But yes, the previous poster's shrieks of alarm are unwarranted.
Properly done K&T wiring in good condition (as the wiring in this
particular house is) is no less safe than modren wiring methods.

EXCEPT it is not designed to handle the current requirements of
today's average home.

Yabut, the K&T circuits (3 of them) are all on 15-amp breakers, so
they're well within their ratings. No danger there.

In a LOT of ways, it is actually SAFER (electrically) than current
wiring practices as the live and neutral are widely spaced.
Pretty hard to drive a nail through a wire and cause a short.

This was stated elsewhere in the thread, and I agree with it.

However, MANY older homes with K&T have NO BOXES. Therefore no "fire
enclosure" if a faulty device (switch , receptacle, or lamp base)
should start on fire. That's where the underwritters start having
fits. Particularly if there is flamable insulation around those wires.

I've seen lots of houses with K&T wiring, but *none* with "no boxes" as
you describe. (On the other hand, I have seen *lots* of wiring added
later that should have in boxes but wasn't.) All devices (switches,
outlets and lighting fixtures) have proper boxes here.


--
Found--the gene that causes belief in genetic determinism

wrote:
On Fri, 11 Sep 2009 13:27:52 -0500, Steve Barker
wrote:

bob haller wrote:
On Sep 11, 12:34?am, Steve Barker wrote:
bob haller wrote:
does the clients homeowners insurance know they have K&T?
The home really needs a complete rewire bringing up to current code
once you muck with this a future fire can see you on the hook for
damages and insurtance company can go after you.........
K&T is very obsolete and what of attic insulation? as you said you
cant imbed K&T in insulation and the roof is the largest loss of heat
in a home......
you say client, are you doing repairs there?
their insurance, like mine, probably couldn't care less.
GUARANTEED they will if theres a fire. you having been the last to
work on the wiring will be on the hook. are you insured? liability if
theres a fire? are you a registered electrician?

besides TODAY most insurance companies wouldnt take on new customers
with K&T
BULL****. pure and simple bull****. Bob buddy, we've been down this
road before in this group about K&T wiring and your Bull**** theories
about insurance. I even ASKED my *new* insurance agent about this exact
thing, and he said "we could care less". He also told me they're not
concerned as to who worked on the wiring last, cause I told him I do all
my own work. So, why not just drop the bull**** insurance thing about
this type of wiring. There's absolutely NO documented evidence about
K&T wiring causing fires, there's absolutely NO documented evidence
about K&T wiring being covered with insulation being any more dangerous
than if not covered, AND there's absolutely NO documentation to
substantiate your bull**** claim that insurance companies will not
insure a house with K&T wiring. Why don't you just get off it? Did
your mom whip you with K&T wiring, or what? What is your big ****ing
deal anyway?

s
I beg to differ with you.
There is not an insurance company doing business in Ontario Canada
that will write new business on a house with
1) K&T wiring
or
2) aluminum wiring without electrical inspection proving either
compatible (coalr) devices or properly installed copper pigtails

ANd very few that will write new business on houses with
1) Cast iron waste stack

or
2) Galvanized water pipes.

Or non UL listed wood burning stoves or fireplaces

My daughter is assistant operations manager of a relatively large
general insurance brokerage (agency) here in Kitchener/Waterloo and
placing insurance on these types of properties is getting EXTREMELY
difficult.

So, what you're telling me is that a guy goes and buys a 80 yo house
from the original family (never rewired) and he flat cannot buy
insurance without a complete rewire??? Sounds like reason #459 not to
live in canada if that's the case.

wrote:
On Fri, 11 Sep 2009 11:11:28 -0700, David Nebenzahl
wrote:

On 9/11/2009 10:48 AM dpb spake thus:

David Nebenzahl wrote:

...
But yes, the previous poster's shrieks of alarm are unwarranted.
Indeed...

But, it's his personal vendetta it appears despite chastisement and
demonstration that he's simply just generally wrong on numerous previous
occasions as well...
Plus he's one of the few posters here with the annoying habit of never
quoting previous replies (small point, but not in his favor).

I will say that I think exercising due caution when doing electrical
work is important. I cringe when I see the numerous news reports of
houses burning down, just wondering whether it was an electrical fire
that was responsible. I don't *ever* want to be the cause of such a fire.

But that doesn't mean one has to be a total Cassandra about it either ...


My younger brother's old house (old crappy farm house) burned down due
to an electrical fault. The house had a LOT of K&T wiring - but it
wasn't K&T that caused the fire. The old "shack" had a sagging summer
kitchen - and the ROMEX wire going from the main house to the addition
had a "shear failure" due to movement between the 2 parts of the
building. The wires rubbed through the insulation enough to cause heat
without blowing the breaker/fuse. (Think it was the stove cable).

Anyway, it got him a new house.


WOW! you mean he actually was able to insure it?? HELLOOOOO Bob
buddy, this guy got insurance on a K&T wired house!!!! HELLO???

JIMMIE wrote:
On Sep 10, 11:05 pm, wrote:
On Thu, 10 Sep 2009 19:47:25 -0700, David Nebenzahl





wrote:
On 9/10/2009 7:34 PM spake thus:
On Thu, 10 Sep 2009 16:43:09 -0700, David Nebenzahl
wrote:
But there's one thing about the old wiring that's puzzling to me.
Usually K&T runs are done with pairs of wires (Hot & neutral)
running alongside each other, and in most cases that's followed
he a run up into a wall will have a pair of wires going up into
the subfloor.
But there are a couple of places where a *single wire* is routed up
out of the basement into the house above. In these cases, the wires
are all hots. No corresponding single neutral wire anywhere nearby.
Presumably the neutral side of the circuit is tied to the neutral
of another pair of wires.
This, of course, makes it difficult to map these circuits, since I
can only assume that the neutral connection is made to the neutral
wire corresponding to the hot wire. That's my operating assumption,
anyhow: my plan is to simply replace these single-wire runs with
Romex, using only the black wire. (Hmm, wonder if they make 12-1
Romex w/o ground? Probably not.)
Anyone ever seen this situation in an older house?
Typical "ring wiring" In the low current requirements of years gone by
it was not uncommon. The first house my folks bought in 1958 only had
2 circuits. All K&T, and the "live" was connected to the fuse at both
ends.
Apparently this house has a couple of partial "ring" circuits in
addition to more conventional (by U.S. standards) wiring.
What you soon learn working on old K&T houses is there is no such
thing as "conventional"- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I was trying to sort out the K&T wiring in my grandfathers house. I
followed a pair of wires through the attic thinking one was hot and
the other neutral. Wrong, both were hot and went to overhead lighting.
The switches were in the neutral side and these wires connected to a
pipe buried in the ground along side the house. Apparently this was
the neutral/ground buss. The current switches in the house were modern
switches but from some old photos taken in the 40sI learned they used
to be knife switches. Final solution was to just rip everything out
and rewire.

Jimmie

The switching on the neutral side carried over into the romex days. I
found that in my next to last house we bought. BUT they did have all
the switch branches junctioned in boxes in the attic, so it wasn't a big
deal to make it right.

Steve Barker wrote:
wrote:
On Fri, 11 Sep 2009 13:27:52 -0500, Steve Barker
wrote:

bob haller wrote:
On Sep 11, 12:34?am, Steve Barker wrote:
bob haller wrote:
does the clients homeowners insurance know they have K&T?
The home really needs a complete rewire bringing up to current code
once you muck with this a future fire can see you on the hook for
damages and insurtance company can go after you.........
K&T is very obsolete and what of attic insulation? as you said you
cant imbed K&T in insulation and the roof is the largest loss of heat
in a home......
you say client, are you doing repairs there?
their insurance, like mine, probably couldn't care less.
GUARANTEED they will if theres a fire. you having been the last to
work on the wiring will be on the hook. are you insured? liability if
theres a fire? are you a registered electrician?

besides TODAY most insurance companies wouldnt take on new customers
with K&T
BULL****. pure and simple bull****. Bob buddy, we've been down this
road before in this group about K&T wiring and your Bull**** theories
about insurance. I even ASKED my *new* insurance agent about this
exact thing, and he said "we could care less". He also told me
they're not concerned as to who worked on the wiring last, cause I
told him I do all my own work. So, why not just drop the bull****
insurance thing about this type of wiring. There's absolutely NO
documented evidence about K&T wiring causing fires, there's
absolutely NO documented evidence about K&T wiring being covered with
insulation being any more dangerous than if not covered, AND there's
absolutely NO documentation to substantiate your bull**** claim that
insurance companies will not insure a house with K&T wiring. Why
don't you just get off it? Did your mom whip you with K&T wiring, or
what? What is your big ****ing deal anyway?

s
I beg to differ with you.
There is not an insurance company doing business in Ontario Canada
that will write new business on a house with
1) K&T wiring
or
2) aluminum wiring without electrical inspection proving either
compatible (coalr) devices or properly installed copper pigtails

ANd very few that will write new business on houses with 1) Cast iron
waste stack

or
2) Galvanized water pipes.

Or non UL listed wood burning stoves or fireplaces

My daughter is assistant operations manager of a relatively large
general insurance brokerage (agency) here in Kitchener/Waterloo and
placing insurance on these types of properties is getting EXTREMELY
difficult.

So, what you're telling me is that a guy goes and buys a 80 yo house
from the original family (never rewired) and he flat cannot buy
insurance without a complete rewire??? Sounds like reason #459 not to
live in canada if that's the case.


Hell, the present Communist takeover of the US Government is
going to put rules into place that will require you to upgrade
a home to their satisfaction before you can sell it. I see
many mysterious house fires happening to properties that can't
be sold.

TDD

Mudslides, hurricanes, and such will make a big comeback.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"The Daring Dufas" wrote in
message ...

Hell, the present Communist takeover of the US Government is
going to put rules into place that will require you to
upgrade
a home to their satisfaction before you can sell it. I see
many mysterious house fires happening to properties that
can't
be sold.

TDD

In article ,
Steve Barker wrote:


BULL****. pure and simple bull****. Bob buddy, we've been down this
road before in this group about K&T wiring and your Bull**** theories
about insurance. I even ASKED my *new* insurance agent about this exact
thing, and he said "we could care less". He also told me they're not
concerned as to who worked on the wiring last, cause I told him I do all
my own work. So, why not just drop the bull**** insurance thing about
this type of wiring. There's absolutely NO documented evidence about
K&T wiring causing fires, there's absolutely NO documented evidence
about K&T wiring being covered with insulation being any more dangerous
than if not covered, AND there's absolutely NO documentation to
substantiate your bull**** claim that insurance companies will not
insure a house with K&T wiring. Why don't you just get off it? Did
your mom whip you with K&T wiring, or what? What is your big ****ing
deal anyway?

s

C'mon, Steve, don't be shy. How do you really feel about K&T? Give it to
us straight.

Steve Barker wrote:


So, why not just drop the bull**** insurance thing about
this type of wiring. There's absolutely NO documented evidence about
K&T wiring causing fires, there's absolutely NO documented evidence
about K&T wiring being covered with insulation being any more dangerous
than if not covered, AND there's absolutely NO documentation to
substantiate your bull**** claim that insurance companies will not
insure a house with K&T wiring.


When I changed insurance companies, the questionnaire asked if the house had
K&T wiring. I have no idea what they do with the information if they get a
yes. They also asked about swimming pools, fences, roof, etc.

In article ,
Mike Paulsen wrote:


I think the phrase "once you muck with this" is the key. It doesn't
matter whether you (in theory) do or do not make it any worse than it is
now. Once you touch it you may be held responsible for it.

Agreed. I tried to refer my electrician to a friend with a mobile home
with an intermittent outlet, and he flat-out refused. Called them all
fire traps, and said he wouldn't so much as change a light bulb in a
mobile home for fear of being held liable if the place burned down later.

I've also heard rumors that once you upgrade any part of older wiring,
the entire house has to be brought up to current code. But since no one
else has brought it up, maybe no truth to it or maybe it's just a local
issue.

On Fri, 11 Sep 2009 20:29:51 -0500, Steve Barker
wrote:

wrote:
On Fri, 11 Sep 2009 13:27:52 -0500, Steve Barker
wrote:

bob haller wrote:
On Sep 11, 12:34?am, Steve Barker wrote:
bob haller wrote:
does the clients homeowners insurance know they have K&T?
The home really needs a complete rewire bringing up to current code
once you muck with this a future fire can see you on the hook for
damages and insurtance company can go after you.........
K&T is very obsolete and what of attic insulation? as you said you
cant imbed K&T in insulation and the roof is the largest loss of heat
in a home......
you say client, are you doing repairs there?
their insurance, like mine, probably couldn't care less.
GUARANTEED they will if theres a fire. you having been the last to
work on the wiring will be on the hook. are you insured? liability if
theres a fire? are you a registered electrician?

besides TODAY most insurance companies wouldnt take on new customers
with K&T
BULL****. pure and simple bull****. Bob buddy, we've been down this
road before in this group about K&T wiring and your Bull**** theories
about insurance. I even ASKED my *new* insurance agent about this exact
thing, and he said "we could care less". He also told me they're not
concerned as to who worked on the wiring last, cause I told him I do all
my own work. So, why not just drop the bull**** insurance thing about
this type of wiring. There's absolutely NO documented evidence about
K&T wiring causing fires, there's absolutely NO documented evidence
about K&T wiring being covered with insulation being any more dangerous
than if not covered, AND there's absolutely NO documentation to
substantiate your bull**** claim that insurance companies will not
insure a house with K&T wiring. Why don't you just get off it? Did
your mom whip you with K&T wiring, or what? What is your big ****ing
deal anyway?

s
I beg to differ with you.
There is not an insurance company doing business in Ontario Canada
that will write new business on a house with
1) K&T wiring
or
2) aluminum wiring without electrical inspection proving either
compatible (coalr) devices or properly installed copper pigtails

ANd very few that will write new business on houses with
1) Cast iron waste stack

or
2) Galvanized water pipes.

Or non UL listed wood burning stoves or fireplaces

My daughter is assistant operations manager of a relatively large
general insurance brokerage (agency) here in Kitchener/Waterloo and
placing insurance on these types of properties is getting EXTREMELY
difficult.

So, what you're telling me is that a guy goes and buys a 80 yo house
from the original family (never rewired) and he flat cannot buy
insurance without a complete rewire??? Sounds like reason #459 not to
live in canada if that's the case.
That is true, but there is no better place on earth to live, on the
whole. And I've lived in quite a few.

On Fri, 11 Sep 2009 23:12:48 -0500, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

Steve Barker wrote:
wrote:
On Fri, 11 Sep 2009 13:27:52 -0500, Steve Barker
wrote:

bob haller wrote:
On Sep 11, 12:34?am, Steve Barker wrote:
bob haller wrote:
does the clients homeowners insurance know they have K&T?
The home really needs a complete rewire bringing up to current code
once you muck with this a future fire can see you on the hook for
damages and insurtance company can go after you.........
K&T is very obsolete and what of attic insulation? as you said you
cant imbed K&T in insulation and the roof is the largest loss of heat
in a home......
you say client, are you doing repairs there?
their insurance, like mine, probably couldn't care less.
GUARANTEED they will if theres a fire. you having been the last to
work on the wiring will be on the hook. are you insured? liability if
theres a fire? are you a registered electrician?

besides TODAY most insurance companies wouldnt take on new customers
with K&T
BULL****. pure and simple bull****. Bob buddy, we've been down this
road before in this group about K&T wiring and your Bull**** theories
about insurance. I even ASKED my *new* insurance agent about this
exact thing, and he said "we could care less". He also told me
they're not concerned as to who worked on the wiring last, cause I
told him I do all my own work. So, why not just drop the bull****
insurance thing about this type of wiring. There's absolutely NO
documented evidence about K&T wiring causing fires, there's
absolutely NO documented evidence about K&T wiring being covered with
insulation being any more dangerous than if not covered, AND there's
absolutely NO documentation to substantiate your bull**** claim that
insurance companies will not insure a house with K&T wiring. Why
don't you just get off it? Did your mom whip you with K&T wiring, or
what? What is your big ****ing deal anyway?

s
I beg to differ with you.
There is not an insurance company doing business in Ontario Canada
that will write new business on a house with
1) K&T wiring
or
2) aluminum wiring without electrical inspection proving either
compatible (coalr) devices or properly installed copper pigtails

ANd very few that will write new business on houses with 1) Cast iron
waste stack

or
2) Galvanized water pipes.

Or non UL listed wood burning stoves or fireplaces

My daughter is assistant operations manager of a relatively large
general insurance brokerage (agency) here in Kitchener/Waterloo and
placing insurance on these types of properties is getting EXTREMELY
difficult.

So, what you're telling me is that a guy goes and buys a 80 yo house
from the original family (never rewired) and he flat cannot buy
insurance without a complete rewire??? Sounds like reason #459 not to
live in canada if that's the case.


Hell, the present Communist takeover of the US Government is
going to put rules into place that will require you to upgrade
a home to their satisfaction before you can sell it. I see
many mysterious house fires happening to properties that can't
be sold.

TDD
ANd not because of any regulation by a "communist" government.

They can't be sold because the bankers and lending institutions are
running scared. Afraid THEY might be regulated. Two many houses that
are not worth the money owing on the mortgage doesn't help matters
any. Banks tearing down whole subdivisions of unsold houses because it
costs too much to keep them maintained to minimum required standards -
with no prospect of being able to sell them for what is owing.

Heck, I'll take a well regulated banking system any day!!!!

On Fri, 11 Sep 2009 20:32:26 -0500, Steve Barker
wrote:

wrote:
On Fri, 11 Sep 2009 11:11:28 -0700, David Nebenzahl
wrote:

On 9/11/2009 10:48 AM dpb spake thus:

David Nebenzahl wrote:

...
But yes, the previous poster's shrieks of alarm are unwarranted.
Indeed...

But, it's his personal vendetta it appears despite chastisement and
demonstration that he's simply just generally wrong on numerous previous
occasions as well...
Plus he's one of the few posters here with the annoying habit of never
quoting previous replies (small point, but not in his favor).

I will say that I think exercising due caution when doing electrical
work is important. I cringe when I see the numerous news reports of
houses burning down, just wondering whether it was an electrical fire
that was responsible. I don't *ever* want to be the cause of such a fire.

But that doesn't mean one has to be a total Cassandra about it either ...


My younger brother's old house (old crappy farm house) burned down due
to an electrical fault. The house had a LOT of K&T wiring - but it
wasn't K&T that caused the fire. The old "shack" had a sagging summer
kitchen - and the ROMEX wire going from the main house to the addition
had a "shear failure" due to movement between the 2 parts of the
building. The wires rubbed through the insulation enough to cause heat
without blowing the breaker/fuse. (Think it was the stove cable).

Anyway, it got him a new house.


WOW! you mean he actually was able to insure it?? HELLOOOOO Bob
buddy, this guy got insurance on a K&T wired house!!!! HELLO???
The house burned down 15 years ago last week.
Long before the insurance companies became "extremely risk adverse"

On Sep 11, 9:29�pm, Steve Barker wrote:
wrote:
On Fri, 11 Sep 2009 13:27:52 -0500, Steve Barker
wrote:

bob haller wrote:
On Sep 11, 12:34?am, Steve Barker wrote:
bob haller wrote:
does the clients homeowners insurance know they have K&T?
The home really needs a complete rewire bringing up to current code
once you muck with this a future fire can see you on the hook for
damages and insurtance company can go after you.........
K&T is very obsolete and what of attic insulation? as you said you
cant imbed K&T in insulation and the roof is the largest loss of heat
in a home......
you say client, are you doing repairs there?
their insurance, like mine, probably couldn't care less.
GUARANTEED they will if theres a fire. you having been the last to
work on the wiring will be on the hook. are you insured? liability if
theres a fire? are you a registered electrician?

besides TODAY most insurance companies wouldnt take on new customers
with K&T
BULL****. �pure and simple bull****. �Bob buddy, we've been down this
road before in this group about K&T wiring and your Bull**** theories
about insurance. �I even ASKED my *new* insurance agent about this exact
thing, and he said "we could care less". �He also told me they're not
concerned as to who worked on the wiring last, cause I told him I do all
my own work. �So, why not just drop the bull**** insurance thing about
this type of wiring. �There's absolutely NO documented evidence about
K&T wiring causing fires, there's absolutely NO documented evidence
about K&T wiring being covered with insulation being any more dangerous
than if not covered, AND there's absolutely NO documentation to
substantiate your bull**** claim that insurance companies will not
insure a house with K&T wiring. �Why don't you just get off it? �Did
your mom whip you with K&T wiring, or what? �What is your big ****ing
deal anyway?

s
I beg to differ with you.
There is not an insurance company doing business in Ontario Canada
that will write new business on a house with
1) K&T wiring
or
2) aluminum wiring without electrical inspection proving either
compatible (coalr) devices or properly installed copper pigtails

ANd very few that will write new business on houses with
1) Cast iron �waste stack

or
�2) Galvanized water pipes.

Or non UL listed wood burning stoves or fireplaces

My daughter is assistant operations manager of a relatively large
general insurance brokerage (agency) here in Kitchener/Waterloo and
placing insurance on these types of properties is getting EXTREMELY
difficult.

So, what you're telling me is that a guy goes and buys a 80 yo house
from the original family (never rewired) �and he flat cannot buy
insurance without a complete rewire??? � Sounds like reason #459 not to
live in canada if that's the case.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

actually common in the US. just check with state farm, they will nt
insure a new customer with K&T

you cant sell a home if new owner cant get homeowners insurance