Do you know that going against the NEC can put whoever ignores their
rules, at liability if something bad happens?

includng a electrician or even municipality building
department.........

bob haller wrote:
Are YOU a master electrician?

Can YOU read?

Still no answers to any questions:
Why do many jurisdictions, including at least 5 whole states, allow
insulating K&T wiring?
Aren't they as smart as you are?
Why does your source insulate over K&T wiring? Aren't they as smart as
you are?

Is a house with Romex "better"?
Is my house with rigid conduit "better"?
How do you manage to ask such stupid questions?

Do you really not know what a master electrician is?

My mother's house was "properly rewired" over 50 years ago. The
electricians just re-fed the K&T.
Does the NEC allow that now? (Hint: I have answered that numerous times.)

Mike Holt is well known in electrical circles. In his discussion forums
why don't electricians share your paranoia about K&T? Are they stupid?
Why do they just think K&T is a wiring method that just has to follow
NEC rules?

Why are your posts so stupid?
Haven't you read I have never had K&T?
You can't win on technical issues so you attack?

Have you figured out that your source doesn't agree with you?
Why does your source say "properly installed and unaltered K&T wiring is
not an inherent fire hazard"? Is your source wrong or are you wrong?
You pointed at the "photos of hacked K&T wiring" in your source. Why
weren't most of the photos identified as involving K&T wiring? Couldn't
your source, which was about K&T wiring, find hacked K&T wiring?

The "Illinois report" was to a state agency about the safety of K&T
wiring. Why couldn't the report find significant numbers of house with
K&T wiring and insulation where the insulation caused a fire? Weren't
the authors as smart as you are? Where is the data about fires in the
huge number of K&T houses that have been insulated?


Why are you unable to answer any questions hallerb?

--
bud--

On Mon, 12 Oct 2009 10:52:09 -0500, bud--
wrote:

bob haller wrote:
Are YOU a master electrician?

Can YOU read?

Still no answers to any questions:
Why do many jurisdictions, including at least 5 whole states, allow
insulating K&T wiring?
Aren't they as smart as you are?
Why does your source insulate over K&T wiring? Aren't they as smart as
you are?


If 5 states allow it 46 don't.

On Oct 12, 3:08�pm, wrote:
On Mon, 12 Oct 2009 10:52:09 -0500, bud--
wrote:

bob haller wrote:
Are YOU a master electrician?

Can YOU read?

Still no answers to any questions:
Why do many jurisdictions, including at least 5 whole states, allow
insulating K&T wiring?
Aren't they as smart as you are?
Why does your source insulate over K&T wiring? Aren't they as smart as
you are?

If 5 states allow it �46 don't.

yeah and the NEC has had a rule against it for many years..........

heck its not just my opinion but ther NECs.

bob haller wrote:
On Oct 12, 3:08�pm, wrote:
On Mon, 12 Oct 2009 10:52:09 -0500, bud--
wrote:

bob haller wrote:
Are YOU a master electrician?

Can YOU read?
Still no answers to any questions:
Why do many jurisdictions, including at least 5 whole states, allow
insulating K&T wiring?
Aren't they as smart as you are?
Why does your source insulate over K&T wiring? Aren't they as smart as
you are?

If 5 states allow it �46 don't.

Last I heard there were 50 states. Canada has not yet been accepted as a
state.

If you read the "Illinois report" there are 5 states (as of 2000)
listed. The report indicates Illinois (and an unknown number of other
states) do not have a statewide code, so individual jurisdictions would
adopt electrical codes. Some of those jurisdictions have. Unless one
went through and looked at all the jurisdictions you have no idea what
percentage of houses have modified rules.

As the "Illinois report" states, "looking at the record of the code
change, it was not based on data substantiating a actual problems."
There was no data indicating a problem used as a basis of the code
change. You and hallerb have not posted such data. The "Illinois report"
looked for such data and couldn't find it. There are many thousands of
houses that have been insulated over K&T. Where is the data indicating a
problem?

And why have 5 whole states, (plus additional jurisdictions) modified
the NEC rule?
Are you smarter than the 5 states (plus other jurisdictions) that have
modified the NEC?
hallerb refuses to answer.

Why does hallerb's own source insulate over K&T? And that is in
hallerb's own state. Last I heard, large areas of PA had no inspection
and no requirement that work be done by licenced electricians. Are those
houses more of a fire risk than houses with K&T where installation was
inspected?
hallerb also refuses to say if he is smarter than his own source.

hallerb's only support comes from home inspectors, which you say are
"pretty clueless".
No other source agrees with hallerb.

Maybe you could answer the questions hallerb refuses to.


yeah and the NEC has had a rule against it for many years..........

heck its not just my opinion but ther NECs.


You and the home inspectors. Reports to 2 state agencies don't agree
with you.

I have answered your questions. Why can't you answer *any* questions?

Have you figured out that your source doesn't agree with you?
Why does your source say "properly installed and unaltered K&T wiring is
not an inherent fire hazard"? Is your source wrong or are you wrong?
You pointed at the "photos of hacked K&T wiring" in your source. Why
weren't most of the photos identified as involving K&T wiring? Couldn't
your source, which was about K&T wiring, find hacked K&T wiring?

Mike Holt is well known in electrical circles. In his discussion forums
why don't electricians share your paranoia about K&T? Are they stupid?
Why do they just think K&T is a wiring method that just has to follow
NEC rules?

Do you really not know what a master electrician is?

My mother's house was "properly rewired" over 50 years ago. The
electricians just re-fed the K&T.
Does the NEC allow that now? (Hint: I have answered that numerous times.)

Is a house with Romex "better"?
Is my house with rigid conduit "better"?
How do you manage to ask such stupid questions?

Why are your posts so stupid?
Haven't you read I have never had K&T?
You can't win on technical issues so you attack?

--
bud--

You can't win on technical issues so you attack?

--
bud---

ATTACK take a look its you who attacked...........

so are you a master electrician? you threw out the question do you
know what a master electrician is...... but NEVER said just exactly
whaty qualifications if any you have

bob haller wrote:


You can't win on technical issues so you attack?

--
bud---

ATTACK take a look its you who attacked...........

so are you a master electrician? you threw out the question do you
know what a master electrician is...... but NEVER said just exactly
whaty qualifications if any you have

Have you two beat this horse dead enough?
-- Doug

On Oct 14, 11:10�am, Douglas Johnson wrote:
bob haller wrote:

You can't win on technical issues so you attack?

--
bud---

ATTACK take a look its you who attacked...........

so are you a master electrician? you threw out the question do you
know what a master electrician is...... but NEVER said just exactly
whaty qualifications if any you have

Have you two beat this horse dead enough?
-- Doug

no its a war of attrition. bud asked if I knew what a master
electrician was, and has refused to answer what his credentials
are.........

we both want the last word, heck his looking foolish can go on for
years.

my poistion is backed by the NEC, his just a few limited areas

bob haller wrote:

my poistion is backed by the NEC, his just a few limited areas


yes, but WHO backs the NEC? Who are they but a bunch of paranoid pencil
pushing dorks who don't want to be sued? THEY in themselves have no
practical knowledge of the stuff, and I'd bet most of them have never
even seen K&T wiring.

**** the NEC. and the pencil pushers who wrote it. A good portion of it
is irrelevant to real world wiring anyway.

s

bob haller wrote:
On Oct 14, 11:10�am, Douglas Johnson wrote:
bob haller wrote:

You can't win on technical issues so you attack?
--
bud---
ATTACK take a look its you who attacked...........

"your [sic] probably defending K&T because your [sic] too cheap to
replace yours"

Why are your posts so stupid?
Haven't you read I have never had K&T?
You can't win on technical issues so you attack?

bud asked if I knew what a master
electrician was, and has refused to answer what his credentials
are.........

Already answered. You acknowledged my answer. Now you are too stupid to
know.

Just like you were too stupid to figure out that your source does not
agree with you.
Why does your source say "properly installed and unaltered K&T wiring is
not an inherent fire hazard"? Is your source wrong or are you wrong?
You pointed at the "photos of hacked K&T wiring" in your source. Why
weren't most of the photos identified as involving K&T wiring? Couldn't
your source, which was about K&T wiring, find hacked K&T wiring?
Why does your source insulate over K&T wiring? Aren't they as smart as
you are? Apparently your state, PA, allows insulating over K&T. Why is
that? Don't they listen to you?

my poistion is backed by the NEC, his just a few limited areas

Why was the NEC change not based on data indicating a problem?
Why do many jurisdictions, including at least 5 whole states, allow
insulating K&T wiring? Why does your state, PA, also allow insulating
over K&T (as is done by your source)? Aren't they as smart as you are?

The "Illinois report" was to a state agency about the safety of K&T
wiring. Why couldn't the report find significant numbers of house with
K&T wiring and insulation where the insulation caused a fire? Weren't
the authors as smart as you are? Where is the data about fires in the
huge number of K&T houses that have been insulated?

Mike Holt is well known in electrical circles. In his discussion forums
why don't electricians share your paranoia about K&T? Are they stupid?
Why do they just think K&T is a wiring method that just has to follow
NEC rules?

Do you really not know what a master electrician is?

My mother's house was "properly rewired" over 50 years ago. The
electricians just re-fed the K&T.
Does the NEC allow that now? (Hint: I have answered that numerous times.)


Why can I answer your questions but you can't even answer one of my
questions?

--
bud--

On Oct 14, 2:00�pm, Steve Barker wrote:
bob haller wrote:

my poistion is backed by the NEC, his just a few limited areas

yes, but WHO backs the NEC? �Who are they but a bunch of paranoid pencil
pushing dorks who don't want to be sued? �THEY in themselves have no
practical knowledge of the stuff, and I'd bet most of them have never
even seen K&T wiring.

**** the NEC. and the pencil pushers who wrote it. �A good portion of it
is irrelevant to real world wiring anyway.

s

thats a interesting position, i suppose you feel GFCIs, arc fault
breakers, grounds, and generator lockouts are all unnecessary?

On Wed, 14 Oct 2009 13:03:03 -0500, bud--
wrote:

bob haller wrote:
On Oct 14, 11:10?am, Douglas Johnson wrote:
bob haller wrote:

You can't win on technical issues so you attack?
--
bud---
ATTACK take a look its you who attacked...........

"your [sic] probably defending K&T because your [sic] too cheap to
replace yours"

Why are your posts so stupid?
Haven't you read I have never had K&T?
You can't win on technical issues so you attack?

bud asked if I knew what a master
electrician was, and has refused to answer what his credentials
are.........

Already answered. You acknowledged my answer. Now you are too stupid to
know.

Just like you were too stupid to figure out that your source does not
agree with you.
Why does your source say "properly installed and unaltered K&T wiring is
not an inherent fire hazard"? Is your source wrong or are you wrong?
You pointed at the "photos of hacked K&T wiring" in your source. Why
weren't most of the photos identified as involving K&T wiring? Couldn't
your source, which was about K&T wiring, find hacked K&T wiring?
Why does your source insulate over K&T wiring? Aren't they as smart as
you are? Apparently your state, PA, allows insulating over K&T. Why is
that? Don't they listen to you?

my poistion is backed by the NEC, his just a few limited areas

Why was the NEC change not based on data indicating a problem?
Why do many jurisdictions, including at least 5 whole states, allow
insulating K&T wiring? Why does your state, PA, also allow insulating
over K&T (as is done by your source)? Aren't they as smart as you are?

The "Illinois report" was to a state agency about the safety of K&T
wiring. Why couldn't the report find significant numbers of house with
K&T wiring and insulation where the insulation caused a fire? Weren't
the authors as smart as you are? Where is the data about fires in the
huge number of K&T houses that have been insulated?

Mike Holt is well known in electrical circles. In his discussion forums
why don't electricians share your paranoia about K&T? Are they stupid?
Why do they just think K&T is a wiring method that just has to follow
NEC rules?

Do you really not know what a master electrician is?

My mother's house was "properly rewired" over 50 years ago. The
electricians just re-fed the K&T.
Does the NEC allow that now? (Hint: I have answered that numerous times.)

50 years ago that WAS properly rewired. Today it falls somewhat short.
If PROPERLY done for lighting circuits it is most likely still safe.
If new circuits are tied into the panel directly, with no connection
to the K&T they are safe.

The insurance companies don't know if it was done correctly - so many
say NO K&T and others require certification by a qualified electrician
that any remaining K&T is properly connected and in safe condition.
It only makes sense on the part of the insurance companies, as they
are extremely RISK AVERSE.

A house wired with K&T in the '20s, supporting today's normal
life-style, is NOT adequate, and NOT safe.
A house with a new modern service and additional circuits added
properly, with unmolested K&T handling all the "modern" loads and only
normal lighting supported by K&T is ain all likelihood safe - BUT
How many houses wired with K&T in the '20s (or even up to the early
'40s) has "unmolested K&T wiring" with properly installed modern
wiring updates???

Not too many - and when going to the work of installing the extra
required modern wiring, the work required to replace the K&T circuits
is very small potatoes in the grand sceme of things.


Why can I answer your questions but you can't even answer one of my
questions?

wrote:
On Oct 14, 2:00�pm, Steve Barker wrote:
bob haller wrote:

my poistion is backed by the NEC, his just a few limited areas
yes, but WHO backs the NEC? �Who are they but a bunch of paranoid pencil
pushing dorks who don't want to be sued? �THEY in themselves have no
practical knowledge of the stuff, and I'd bet most of them have never
even seen K&T wiring.

**** the NEC. and the pencil pushers who wrote it. �A good portion of it
is irrelevant to real world wiring anyway.

s

thats a interesting position, i suppose you feel GFCIs, arc fault
breakers, grounds, and generator lockouts are all unnecessary?


I like GFCI's. I won't use one in my own house, but in the rentals, i
have them all over.

Arc fault i think is a waste of time and will cause many many more
problems than they could ever think of solving.

Grounds, good.

Generator lockout?? Well I don't use one, but then again, i know how to
pull my main, and also have ways of knowing when the power comes back on
with my main pulled.

s

A house wired with K&T in the '20s, supporting today's normal
life-style, is NOT adequate, and NOT safe.
A house with a new modern service and additional circuits added
properly, with unmolested K&T handling all the "modern" loads and only
normal lighting supported by K&T is ain all likelihood safe - BUT
How many houses wired with K&T in the '20s (or even up to the early
'40s) has "unmolested K&T wiring" with properly installed modern
wiring updates???

Not too many - and when going to the work of installing the extra
required modern wiring, the work required to replace the K&T circuits
is very small potatoes in the grand sceme of things.





Why can I answer your questions but you can't even answer one of my
questions?-all excellent points...........

not only that but if you have a home with K&T your far better off to
replace the wiring before insulating......

fishing new wires thru insulated cavaties is a PIA. and today who
wants home without insulation?

even the OP of this thread said the K&T was hacked.

no doubt there are very few unmolested original K&T installations
still in existence

wrote:
On Wed, 14 Oct 2009 13:03:03 -0500, bud--
wrote:

bob haller wrote:
On Oct 14, 11:10?am, Douglas Johnson wrote:
bob haller wrote:

You can't win on technical issues so you attack?
--
bud---
ATTACK take a look its you who attacked...........
"your [sic] probably defending K&T because your [sic] too cheap to
replace yours"

Why are your posts so stupid?
Haven't you read I have never had K&T?
You can't win on technical issues so you attack?

bud asked if I knew what a master
electrician was, and has refused to answer what his credentials
are.........
Already answered. You acknowledged my answer. Now you are too stupid to
know.

Just like you were too stupid to figure out that your source does not
agree with you.
Why does your source say "properly installed and unaltered K&T wiring is
not an inherent fire hazard"? Is your source wrong or are you wrong?
You pointed at the "photos of hacked K&T wiring" in your source. Why
weren't most of the photos identified as involving K&T wiring? Couldn't
your source, which was about K&T wiring, find hacked K&T wiring?
Why does your source insulate over K&T wiring? Aren't they as smart as
you are? Apparently your state, PA, allows insulating over K&T. Why is
that? Don't they listen to you?

my poistion is backed by the NEC, his just a few limited areas
Why was the NEC change not based on data indicating a problem?
Why do many jurisdictions, including at least 5 whole states, allow
insulating K&T wiring? Why does your state, PA, also allow insulating
over K&T (as is done by your source)? Aren't they as smart as you are?

The "Illinois report" was to a state agency about the safety of K&T
wiring. Why couldn't the report find significant numbers of house with
K&T wiring and insulation where the insulation caused a fire? Weren't
the authors as smart as you are? Where is the data about fires in the
huge number of K&T houses that have been insulated?

Mike Holt is well known in electrical circles. In his discussion forums
why don't electricians share your paranoia about K&T? Are they stupid?
Why do they just think K&T is a wiring method that just has to follow
NEC rules?

Do you really not know what a master electrician is?

My mother's house was "properly rewired" over 50 years ago. The
electricians just re-fed the K&T.
Does the NEC allow that now? (Hint: I have answered that numerous times.)

50 years ago that WAS properly rewired. Today it falls somewhat short.

It is refreshing to know there are still people that use a Ouija board.
The rewire included a couple kitchen circuits and a laundry circuit,
amongst other additions.

If PROPERLY done for lighting circuits it is most likely still safe.
If new circuits are tied into the panel directly, with no connection
to the K&T they are safe.

The insurance companies don't know if it was done correctly

Insurance companies don't know if modifications to old 2-wire tar/paper
jacketed Romex was done correctly either.

- so many
say NO K&T and others require certification by a qualified electrician
that any remaining K&T is properly connected and in safe condition.
It only makes sense on the part of the insurance companies, as they
are extremely RISK AVERSE.

Still missing - the actuarial data that shows K&T is a significantly
larger problem that other older wiring. What has been shown is that an
insurance company, when challenged, did not provide that data and was
ordered to provide insurance. And that State Farm had a surcharge in MN
that it was ordered to drop because it had no substantiating data.

How about the PA houses (perhaps hallerb's) where inspection was never
required.
Should an insurance company insure them?
Are they safer than a house with K&T where work was inspected?

A house wired with K&T in the '20s, supporting today's normal
life-style, is NOT adequate, and NOT safe.

How many houses are there with a 30A 120V service? You will probably
have to look real hard to find a K&T house that has not had major
additions. (It should probably be on the national registry of historic
buildings.)

A house with a new modern service and additional circuits added
properly, with unmolested K&T handling all the "modern" loads and only
normal lighting supported by K&T is ain all likelihood safe - BUT
How many houses wired with K&T in the '20s (or even up to the early
'40s) has "unmolested K&T wiring" with properly installed modern
wiring updates???

How many houses have "unmolested 2-wire tar/paper jacketed Romex".
Where is the data?

Not too many

Ouija board again?
Maybe you borrowed hallerb's?

- and when going to the work of installing the extra
required modern wiring, the work required to replace the K&T circuits
is very small potatoes in the grand sceme of things.

It can be very large potatoes depending on the construction and what is
being done. For instance replacing ceiling lights and wall switches on a
1st floor when there is a 2nd floor is a major job. (This is obvious in
a recent question from blueman.)

--
bud--

On Thu, 15 Oct 2009 11:53:22 -0500, bud--
wrote:

wrote:
On Wed, 14 Oct 2009 13:03:03 -0500, bud--
wrote:

bob haller wrote:
On Oct 14, 11:10?am, Douglas Johnson wrote:
bob haller wrote:

You can't win on technical issues so you attack?
--
bud---
ATTACK take a look its you who attacked...........
"your [sic] probably defending K&T because your [sic] too cheap to
replace yours"

Why are your posts so stupid?
Haven't you read I have never had K&T?
You can't win on technical issues so you attack?

bud asked if I knew what a master
electrician was, and has refused to answer what his credentials
are.........
Already answered. You acknowledged my answer. Now you are too stupid to
know.

Just like you were too stupid to figure out that your source does not
agree with you.
Why does your source say "properly installed and unaltered K&T wiring is
not an inherent fire hazard"? Is your source wrong or are you wrong?
You pointed at the "photos of hacked K&T wiring" in your source. Why
weren't most of the photos identified as involving K&T wiring? Couldn't
your source, which was about K&T wiring, find hacked K&T wiring?
Why does your source insulate over K&T wiring? Aren't they as smart as
you are? Apparently your state, PA, allows insulating over K&T. Why is
that? Don't they listen to you?

my poistion is backed by the NEC, his just a few limited areas
Why was the NEC change not based on data indicating a problem?
Why do many jurisdictions, including at least 5 whole states, allow
insulating K&T wiring? Why does your state, PA, also allow insulating
over K&T (as is done by your source)? Aren't they as smart as you are?

The "Illinois report" was to a state agency about the safety of K&T
wiring. Why couldn't the report find significant numbers of house with
K&T wiring and insulation where the insulation caused a fire? Weren't
the authors as smart as you are? Where is the data about fires in the
huge number of K&T houses that have been insulated?

Mike Holt is well known in electrical circles. In his discussion forums
why don't electricians share your paranoia about K&T? Are they stupid?
Why do they just think K&T is a wiring method that just has to follow
NEC rules?

Do you really not know what a master electrician is?

My mother's house was "properly rewired" over 50 years ago. The
electricians just re-fed the K&T.
Does the NEC allow that now? (Hint: I have answered that numerous times.)

50 years ago that WAS properly rewired. Today it falls somewhat short.

It is refreshing to know there are still people that use a Ouija board.
The rewire included a couple kitchen circuits and a laundry circuit,
amongst other additions.

If PROPERLY done for lighting circuits it is most likely still safe.
If new circuits are tied into the panel directly, with no connection
to the K&T they are safe.

The insurance companies don't know if it was done correctly

Insurance companies don't know if modifications to old 2-wire tar/paper
jacketed Romex was done correctly either.

- so many
say NO K&T and others require certification by a qualified electrician
that any remaining K&T is properly connected and in safe condition.
It only makes sense on the part of the insurance companies, as they
are extremely RISK AVERSE.

Still missing - the actuarial data that shows K&T is a significantly
larger problem that other older wiring. What has been shown is that an
insurance company, when challenged, did not provide that data and was
ordered to provide insurance. And that State Farm had a surcharge in MN
that it was ordered to drop because it had no substantiating data.

How about the PA houses (perhaps hallerb's) where inspection was never
required.
Should an insurance company insure them?
Are they safer than a house with K&T where work was inspected?


It can be very large potatoes depending on the construction and what is
being done. For instance replacing ceiling lights and wall switches on a
1st floor when there is a 2nd floor is a major job. (This is obvious in
a recent question from blueman.)


Actually, that is the EASY part. Repair to flooring are the SIMPLEST
and CHEAPEST part of renovating a house. In many cases going through
the second story floor to wire the main floor is simpler than doing
the second floor from the attic (assuming a non-usable "attic" space)

When we wired the old "homestead" back in the sixties all the
existing K&T was stripped out for scrap, and boards were removed from
the upper story floor to gain access to wire the main floor, as well
as the upper floor with exception of ceiling lighting (which there was
not a lot of in a slope-ceilinged story-and-a-half house which was 88
years old at the time - and to that point TOTALLY unmolested.

just a few years ago statistics showed the average person moves every
7 years.

now think about that, lets raise it to 10 years.

so a 70 year old home could of easily had 7 owners or more in 70
years.

each a risk of mucking around their wiring, trying to make do.

BUD NOTE !!!

K&T is the ONLY wiring system with no boxes.

boxes that can permit inspection of the wiring.

K&T is buried in walls, impossdible to inspect without opening those
walls, and at that point you might as well just rewire.............

a home today with 30 or 60 amp main fuse box probably cant get
homeowners insurance either.

just like K&T insurance companies are risk adverse.

heck while I type this network news reports chinese drywall homes are
losing their homeowners insurance...... policies cancelled

wrote:
On Thu, 15 Oct 2009 11:53:22 -0500, bud--
wrote:

wrote:
On Wed, 14 Oct 2009 13:03:03 -0500, bud--
wrote:

bob haller wrote:
On Oct 14, 11:10?am, Douglas Johnson wrote:
bob haller wrote:

You can't win on technical issues so you attack?
--
bud---
ATTACK take a look its you who attacked...........
"your [sic] probably defending K&T because your [sic] too cheap to
replace yours"

Why are your posts so stupid?
Haven't you read I have never had K&T?
You can't win on technical issues so you attack?

bud asked if I knew what a master
electrician was, and has refused to answer what his credentials
are.........
Already answered. You acknowledged my answer. Now you are too stupid to
know.

Just like you were too stupid to figure out that your source does not
agree with you.
Why does your source say "properly installed and unaltered K&T wiring is
not an inherent fire hazard"? Is your source wrong or are you wrong?
You pointed at the "photos of hacked K&T wiring" in your source. Why
weren't most of the photos identified as involving K&T wiring? Couldn't
your source, which was about K&T wiring, find hacked K&T wiring?
Why does your source insulate over K&T wiring? Aren't they as smart as
you are? Apparently your state, PA, allows insulating over K&T. Why is
that? Don't they listen to you?

my poistion is backed by the NEC, his just a few limited areas
Why was the NEC change not based on data indicating a problem?
Why do many jurisdictions, including at least 5 whole states, allow
insulating K&T wiring? Why does your state, PA, also allow insulating
over K&T (as is done by your source)? Aren't they as smart as you are?

The "Illinois report" was to a state agency about the safety of K&T
wiring. Why couldn't the report find significant numbers of house with
K&T wiring and insulation where the insulation caused a fire? Weren't
the authors as smart as you are? Where is the data about fires in the
huge number of K&T houses that have been insulated?

Mike Holt is well known in electrical circles. In his discussion forums
why don't electricians share your paranoia about K&T? Are they stupid?
Why do they just think K&T is a wiring method that just has to follow
NEC rules?

Do you really not know what a master electrician is?

My mother's house was "properly rewired" over 50 years ago. The
electricians just re-fed the K&T.
Does the NEC allow that now? (Hint: I have answered that numerous times.)
50 years ago that WAS properly rewired. Today it falls somewhat short.
It is refreshing to know there are still people that use a Ouija board.
The rewire included a couple kitchen circuits and a laundry circuit,
amongst other additions.

If PROPERLY done for lighting circuits it is most likely still safe.
If new circuits are tied into the panel directly, with no connection
to the K&T they are safe.

The insurance companies don't know if it was done correctly
Insurance companies don't know if modifications to old 2-wire tar/paper
jacketed Romex was done correctly either.

- so many
say NO K&T and others require certification by a qualified electrician
that any remaining K&T is properly connected and in safe condition.
It only makes sense on the part of the insurance companies, as they
are extremely RISK AVERSE.
Still missing - the actuarial data that shows K&T is a significantly
larger problem that other older wiring. What has been shown is that an
insurance company, when challenged, did not provide that data and was
ordered to provide insurance. And that State Farm had a surcharge in MN
that it was ordered to drop because it had no substantiating data.

How about the PA houses (perhaps hallerb's) where inspection was never
required.
Should an insurance company insure them?
Are they safer than a house with K&T where work was inspected?

It can be very large potatoes depending on the construction and what is
being done. For instance replacing ceiling lights and wall switches on a
1st floor when there is a 2nd floor is a major job. (This is obvious in
a recent question from blueman.)


Actually, that is the EASY part. Repair to flooring are the SIMPLEST
and CHEAPEST part of renovating a house. In many cases going through
the second story floor to wire the main floor is simpler than doing
the second floor from the attic (assuming a non-usable "attic" space)

When we wired the old "homestead" back in the sixties all the
existing K&T was stripped out for scrap, and boards were removed from
the upper story floor to gain access to wire the main floor, as well
as the upper floor with exception of ceiling lighting (which there was
not a lot of in a slope-ceilinged story-and-a-half house which was 88
years old at the time - and to that point TOTALLY unmolested.

I would never remove boards from my tight hardwood floors - the boards
would likely have to be replaced with matching wood then finished to
match. I would rather match plaster and paint to match.

And my subfloor runs across the joists with the finish floor parallel
the joists. If you remove a couple finish floor boards you then have to
cut the subfloor. That cuts the structural strength of the floor.

I have never seen a finish floor in a house I worked on that I would
consider cutting. And I have never seen electricians cut the floor. It
may have been done long ago.

hallerb's source includes "case studies" of wiring changes done in
conjunction with insulating houses. In no case was all of the K&T
removed (as hallerb insists must be done for safety). In no case were
any floor boards removed except in attics. In one house there was quite
a bit of surface raceway added.


Still missing - data that says K&T is significantly more hazardous than
other wiring.
hallerb's source disagrees with him. And hallerb's source leaves K&T
wiring in the rewiring they show - in hallerb's home state.

Still missing - data that shows there is a significant hazard in the
very large number of houses that have K&T wiring and have been
insulated. The "Illinois report" looked and couldn't find such data.
hallerb's source insulates over K&T.

You and hallerb are long on opinion and short on facts. The NEC was also
short on facts in the code change.

--
bud--

On Fri, 16 Oct 2009 12:04:44 -0500, bud--
wrote:

wrote:
On Thu, 15 Oct 2009 11:53:22 -0500, bud--
wrote:

wrote:
On Wed, 14 Oct 2009 13:03:03 -0500, bud--
wrote:

bob haller wrote:
On Oct 14, 11:10?am, Douglas Johnson wrote:
bob haller wrote:

You can't win on technical issues so you attack?
--
bud---
ATTACK take a look its you who attacked...........
"your [sic] probably defending K&T because your [sic] too cheap to
replace yours"

Why are your posts so stupid?
Haven't you read I have never had K&T?
You can't win on technical issues so you attack?

bud asked if I knew what a master
electrician was, and has refused to answer what his credentials
are.........
Already answered. You acknowledged my answer. Now you are too stupid to
know.

Just like you were too stupid to figure out that your source does not
agree with you.
Why does your source say "properly installed and unaltered K&T wiring is
not an inherent fire hazard"? Is your source wrong or are you wrong?
You pointed at the "photos of hacked K&T wiring" in your source. Why
weren't most of the photos identified as involving K&T wiring? Couldn't
your source, which was about K&T wiring, find hacked K&T wiring?
Why does your source insulate over K&T wiring? Aren't they as smart as
you are? Apparently your state, PA, allows insulating over K&T. Why is
that? Don't they listen to you?

my poistion is backed by the NEC, his just a few limited areas
Why was the NEC change not based on data indicating a problem?
Why do many jurisdictions, including at least 5 whole states, allow
insulating K&T wiring? Why does your state, PA, also allow insulating
over K&T (as is done by your source)? Aren't they as smart as you are?

The "Illinois report" was to a state agency about the safety of K&T
wiring. Why couldn't the report find significant numbers of house with
K&T wiring and insulation where the insulation caused a fire? Weren't
the authors as smart as you are? Where is the data about fires in the
huge number of K&T houses that have been insulated?

Mike Holt is well known in electrical circles. In his discussion forums
why don't electricians share your paranoia about K&T? Are they stupid?
Why do they just think K&T is a wiring method that just has to follow
NEC rules?

Do you really not know what a master electrician is?

My mother's house was "properly rewired" over 50 years ago. The
electricians just re-fed the K&T.
Does the NEC allow that now? (Hint: I have answered that numerous times.)
50 years ago that WAS properly rewired. Today it falls somewhat short.
It is refreshing to know there are still people that use a Ouija board.
The rewire included a couple kitchen circuits and a laundry circuit,
amongst other additions.

If PROPERLY done for lighting circuits it is most likely still safe.
If new circuits are tied into the panel directly, with no connection
to the K&T they are safe.

The insurance companies don't know if it was done correctly
Insurance companies don't know if modifications to old 2-wire tar/paper
jacketed Romex was done correctly either.

- so many
say NO K&T and others require certification by a qualified electrician
that any remaining K&T is properly connected and in safe condition.
It only makes sense on the part of the insurance companies, as they
are extremely RISK AVERSE.
Still missing - the actuarial data that shows K&T is a significantly
larger problem that other older wiring. What has been shown is that an
insurance company, when challenged, did not provide that data and was
ordered to provide insurance. And that State Farm had a surcharge in MN
that it was ordered to drop because it had no substantiating data.

How about the PA houses (perhaps hallerb's) where inspection was never
required.
Should an insurance company insure them?
Are they safer than a house with K&T where work was inspected?

It can be very large potatoes depending on the construction and what is
being done. For instance replacing ceiling lights and wall switches on a
1st floor when there is a 2nd floor is a major job. (This is obvious in
a recent question from blueman.)


Actually, that is the EASY part. Repair to flooring are the SIMPLEST
and CHEAPEST part of renovating a house. In many cases going through
the second story floor to wire the main floor is simpler than doing
the second floor from the attic (assuming a non-usable "attic" space)

When we wired the old "homestead" back in the sixties all the
existing K&T was stripped out for scrap, and boards were removed from
the upper story floor to gain access to wire the main floor, as well
as the upper floor with exception of ceiling lighting (which there was
not a lot of in a slope-ceilinged story-and-a-half house which was 88
years old at the time - and to that point TOTALLY unmolested.

I would never remove boards from my tight hardwood floors - the boards
would likely have to be replaced with matching wood then finished to
match. I would rather match plaster and paint to match.

And my subfloor runs across the joists with the finish floor parallel
the joists. If you remove a couple finish floor boards you then have to
cut the subfloor. That cuts the structural strength of the floor.
Not at all if it is properly replaced.

I have never seen a finish floor in a house I worked on that I would
consider cutting. And I have never seen electricians cut the floor. It
may have been done long ago.

Hardwood floors would be a bit more of a problem - This house had
pine board floor with linoleum on it. Many have plywood (or even
aspenite) sheathing today with vinyl, or carpet covering.
On the pine T&G we just ripped the board down the center and popped it
out. Dad put a cleat on the back of the one part, and screwed and
glued the second half to the cleat after fitting the T&G back
together. Absolutely no loss of integrety, and new flooring covered it
that you couldn't tell it had ever been open. He did a LOT of rural
electrification work back in those years, and very seldom had to do
much plaster removal.

hallerb's source includes "case studies" of wiring changes done in
conjunction with insulating houses. In no case was all of the K&T
removed (as hallerb insists must be done for safety). In no case were
any floor boards removed except in attics. In one house there was quite
a bit of surface raceway added.


Still missing - data that says K&T is significantly more hazardous than
other wiring.
hallerb's source disagrees with him. And hallerb's source leaves K&T
wiring in the rewiring they show - in hallerb's home state.

Still missing - data that shows there is a significant hazard in the
very large number of houses that have K&T wiring and have been
insulated. The "Illinois report" looked and couldn't find such data.
hallerb's source insulates over K&T.

You and hallerb are long on opinion and short on facts. The NEC was also
short on facts in the code change.

How many houses are there with a 30A 120V service? You will probably
have to look real hard to find a K&T house that has not had major
additions. (It should probably be on the national registry of historic
buildings.)

yet bud concludes K&T is fine despite the fact it must of been
altered.

hey I have the NEC agreeing with me while bud has a few exceptions
which may have changed by now, since its been a lot of years since
buds illinois report came out.

and state farm sopped surcharging K&T they just refuse to write new
policies

- and when going to the work of installing the extra
required modern wiring, the work required to replace the K&T circuits
is very small potatoes in the grand sceme of things.

It can be very large potatoes depending on the construction and what is
being done. For instance replacing ceiling lights and wall switches on a
1st floor when there is a 2nd floor is a major job. (This is obvious in
a recent question from blueman.)

--
bud---

the cost is small potatoes in comparison with the cost of buying a
home, and $ probably less than a new roof, new kitchen or bath or
other common major home upgrade.

homes arent just a place to live, for nearly everyone its their
biggest lifetime purchase and their most valuable asset.........

why muck around trying to avoid spending a few grand, for the biggest
asset of your life?

wrote:
How many houses are there with a 30A 120V service? You will probably
have to look real hard to find a K&T house that has not had major
additions. (It should probably be on the national registry of historic
buildings.)

yet bud concludes K&T is fine despite the fact it must of been
altered.

"Must have been altered"? Can't you read? [A rhetorical question - it
is obvious that you can't.] What you quoted above is that K&T had NOT
been altered.


hey I have the NEC agreeing with me while bud has a few exceptions
which may have changed by now, since its been a lot of years since
buds illinois report came out.

The Ouija board at work again? As always long on opinion, short on
facts. If anything I expect more jurisdictions allow insulation.
Including yours. Why does your state allow insulating over K&T?


and state farm sopped surcharging K&T they just refuse to write new
policies

Who said State Farm surcharged K&T. Can't you read? [A rhetorical
question - it is obvious that you can't.] How can you say such stupid
things? Do you have help or are you that stupid by yourself?
Have you figured out if I am a master electrician yet?

Have you figured out that your source does not agree with you?
Why does your source say "properly installed and unaltered K&T wiring is
not an inherent fire hazard"? Is your source wrong or are you wrong?
You pointed at the "photos of hacked K&T wiring" in your source. Why
weren't most of the photos identified as involving K&T wiring? Couldn't
your source, which was about K&T wiring, find hacked K&T wiring?
Why does your source, when it does some rewiring, leave K&T? Aren't they
as smart as you are? How could they do that in your home state?

Mike Holt is well known in electrical circles. In his discussion forums
why don't electricians share your paranoia about K&T? Are they stupid?
Why do they just think K&T is a wiring method that just has to follow
NEC rules?

Why was the NEC change not based on data indicating a problem?
Why do many jurisdictions, including at least 5 whole states, allow
insulating K&T wiring?
Why does your source insulate over K&T? Aren't they as smart as you are?
Why does your state, PA, also allow insulating over K&T (as is done by
your source)?
Why did the "Illinois report", to a state agency, not find significant
numbers of house with K&T wiring and insulation where the insulation
caused a fire? They looked for a problem and couldn't find it. Weren't
the authors as smart as you are? Where is the data about fires in the
huge number of K&T houses that have been insulated? So many houses and
no problem?


Why can I answer your questions but you can't even answer one of my
questions? Aren't you smart enough to answer questions?

--
bud--

sure there are unmodified K&T installs out there. NOT!

in its lifetime estimates indicate at least 7 and probably more
families lived there......

each likely making changes to get by

the root of the problem is anything approaching 100 years old.

even solder joints dont last forever, espically if overheated, which
insulating around can lead too, besides overfusing.

this 20 amp fuse blows so often just install a 30

wrote:
sure there are unmodified K&T installs out there. NOT!

hallerb knows. It was in a nightmare last night.
But there is a lot of original K&T with added wiring, just like my
mother's old house.


in its lifetime estimates indicate at least 7 and probably more
families lived there......

each likely making changes to get by

hallerb's Ouija board told him.


the root of the problem is anything approaching 100 years old.

What about people who parade beliefs as facts, can't figure out what has
been said, and can't even answer questions?
Have you seen Soylent Green?

And have you figured out that _your source_ does not agree with you?
Why does _your source_ say "properly installed and unaltered K&T wiring
is not an inherent fire hazard"? Is _your source_ wrong or are you wrong?


even solder joints dont last forever, espically if overheated, which
insulating around can lead too, besides overfusing.

Something hallerb read in the National Enquirer? Certainly didn't come
from anyone who knows anything about solder.
Why does _your source_ insulate over K&T? Aren't they as smart as you
are? Did you even read _your source_?


this 20 amp fuse blows so often just install a 30

It is what hallerb does all the time. It is why his Romex is rotting.

Another post with beliefs and no facts. And still too dumb to answer
even one question?

Have you figured out if I am a master electrician yet?

Why does _your source_, when it does some rewiring, leave K&T? Aren't
they as smart as you are? How could they do that in your home state?

Mike Holt is well known in electrical circles. In his discussion forums
why don't electricians share your paranoia about K&T? Are they stupid?
Why do they just think K&T is a wiring method that just has to follow
NEC rules?

Why was the NEC change not based on data indicating a problem?
Why do many jurisdictions, including at least 5 whole states, allow
insulating K&T wiring?
Why does your state, PA, also allow insulating over K&T (as is done by
_your source_)?
Why did the "Illinois report", to a state agency, not find significant
numbers of house with K&T wiring and insulation where the insulation
caused a fire? They looked for a problem and couldn't find it. Weren't
the authors as smart as you are? Where is the data about fires in the
huge number of K&T houses that have been insulated? So many houses and
no problem?

But reality doesn't bother a fanatic.

--
bud--

where the insulation
caused a fire? They looked for a problem and couldn't find it. Weren't
the authors as smart as you are? Where is the data about fires in the
huge number of K&T houses that have been insulated? So many houses and
no problem?

But reality doesn't bother a fanatic.

--
bud--


bud has lost it........ but he is funny to read.

disagreeing with the NEC is buds hobby.............

and for bthose who had a home fire caused by insulating K&T........

bud doesnt care.................

wrote:
where the insulation
caused a fire? They looked for a problem and couldn't find it. Weren't
the authors as smart as you are? Where is the data about fires in the
huge number of K&T houses that have been insulated? So many houses and
no problem?

But reality doesn't bother a fanatic.

--
bud--


bud has lost it........ but he is funny to read.

hallerb clings to his opinions, just like the creationists.
All hallerb has are his opinions. Even his _own source_ disagrees with him.


disagreeing with the NEC is buds hobby.............

Not understanding the NEC is hallerb's hobby.

Do you still think with a major rewire the whole house has to meet the
current NEC (like receptacle spacing)?

Do you still think the NEC applies even when the controlling
jurisdiction has an electrical code different from the NEC?

Does the NEC still allow K&T to be refed, just like it was in my
mother's old house over 50 years ago?


and for bthose who had a home fire caused by insulating K&T........

bud doesnt care.................

Ho-hum.
Still missing - data that shows there is a significant hazard in the
very large number of houses that have K&T wiring and have been
insulated. The "Illinois report" looked and couldn't find such data.
But hallerb doesn't care.
He believes there are fires all the time.

Still missing - answers to even one question.

Have you figured out if I am a master electrician yet?

Have you figured out that your source does not agree with you?
Why does your source say "properly installed and unaltered K&T wiring is
not an inherent fire hazard"? Is your source wrong or are you wrong?
You pointed at the "photos of hacked K&T wiring" in your source. Why
weren't most of the photos identified as involving K&T wiring? Couldn't
your source, which was about K&T wiring, find hacked K&T wiring?
Why does your source, when it does some rewiring, leave K&T? Aren't they
as smart as you are? How could they do that in your home state?

Mike Holt is well known in electrical circles. In his discussion forums
why don't electricians share your paranoia about K&T? Are they stupid?
Why do they just think K&T is a wiring method that just has to follow
NEC rules?

Why was the NEC change not based on data indicating a problem?
Why do many jurisdictions, including at least 5 whole states, allow
insulating K&T wiring?
Why does your source insulate over K&T? Aren't they as smart as you are?
Why does your state, PA, also allow insulating over K&T (as is done by
your source)?
Why did the "Illinois report", to a state agency, not find significant
numbers of house with K&T wiring and insulation where the insulation
caused a fire? They looked for a problem and couldn't find it. Weren't
the authors as smart as you are? Where is the data about fires in the
huge number of K&T houses that have been insulated? So many houses and
no problem?

Even creationists answer questions.

--
bud--

On Oct 20, 9:08�am, bud-- wrote:
wrote:
where the insulation
caused a fire? They looked for a problem and couldn't find it. Weren't
the authors as smart as you are? Where is the data about fires in the
huge number of K&T houses that have been insulated? So many houses and
no problem?

But reality doesn't bother a fanatic.

--
bud--

bud has lost it........ but he is funny to read.

hallerb clings to his opinions, just like the creationists.
All hallerb has are his opinions. Even his _own source_ disagrees with him.



disagreeing with the NEC is buds hobby.............

Not understanding the NEC is hallerb's hobby.

Do you still think with a major rewire the whole house has to meet the
current NEC (like receptacle spacing)?

Do you still think the NEC applies even when the controlling
jurisdiction has an electrical code different from the NEC?

Does the NEC still allow K&T to be refed, just like it was in my
mother's old house over 50 years ago?



and for bthose who had a home fire caused by insulating K&T........

bud doesnt care.................

Ho-hum.
Still missing - data that shows there is a significant hazard in the
very large number of houses that have K&T wiring and have been
insulated. The "Illinois report" looked and couldn't find such data.
But hallerb doesn't care.
He believes there are fires all the time.

Still missing - answers to even one question.

Have you figured out if I am a master electrician yet?

Have you figured out that your source does not agree with you?
Why does your source say "properly installed and unaltered K&T wiring is
not an inherent fire hazard"? Is your source wrong or are you wrong?
You pointed at the "photos of hacked K&T wiring" in your source. Why
weren't most of the photos identified as involving K&T wiring? Couldn't
your source, which was about K&T wiring, find hacked K&T wiring?
Why does your source, when it does some rewiring, leave K&T? Aren't they
as smart as you are? How could they do that in your home state?

Mike Holt is well known in electrical circles. In his discussion forums
why don't electricians share your paranoia about K&T? Are they stupid?
Why do they just think K&T is a wiring method that just has to follow
NEC rules?

Why was the NEC change not based on data indicating a problem?
Why do many jurisdictions, including at least 5 whole states, allow
insulating K&T wiring?
Why does your source insulate over K&T? Aren't they as smart as you are?
Why does your state, PA, also allow insulating over K&T (as is done by
your source)?
Why did the "Illinois report", to a state agency, not find significant
numbers of house with K&T wiring and insulation where the insulation
caused a fire? They looked for a problem and couldn't find it. Weren't
the authors as smart as you are? Where is the data about fires in the
huge number of K&T houses that have been insulated? So many houses and
no problem?

Even creationists answer questions.

--
bud--

Hi Bud, see your still spewing nonsense

If insurance requires all K&T is taken out of service, and its a LOT,
then most places require a complete rewire bringing the home to
current code.

if you get a permit, GFCIs, main breaker panel, arc fault, receptables
every X feet, ground jumper at meter, ground rods at service etc etc
etc.

you cant just replace the K&T with one outlet per room. not and pass
inspection

of course code means nothing to you, no doubt you hack the wiring
everywhere you go.

or you would have at least a little respect for the NEC and what they
do.

which is for everyones safety

Video Proves Cars Are Safer Than Ever


just like new wiring is safer than K&T.

sad they destroyed a 50 year old car

wrote:
On Oct 20, 9:08�am, bud-- wrote:
wrote:
where the insulation
caused a fire? They looked for a problem and couldn't find it. Weren't
the authors as smart as you are? Where is the data about fires in the
huge number of K&T houses that have been insulated? So many houses and
no problem?
But reality doesn't bother a fanatic.
--
bud--
bud has lost it........ but he is funny to read.
hallerb clings to his opinions, just like the creationists.
All hallerb has are his opinions. Even his _own source_ disagrees with him.



disagreeing with the NEC is buds hobby.............
Not understanding the NEC is hallerb's hobby.

Do you still think with a major rewire the whole house has to meet the
current NEC (like receptacle spacing)?

Do you still think the NEC applies even when the controlling
jurisdiction has an electrical code different from the NEC?

Does the NEC still allow K&T to be refed, just like it was in my
mother's old house over 50 years ago?



and for bthose who had a home fire caused by insulating K&T........
bud doesnt care.................
Ho-hum.
Still missing - data that shows there is a significant hazard in the
very large number of houses that have K&T wiring and have been
insulated. The "Illinois report" looked and couldn't find such data.
But hallerb doesn't care.
He believes there are fires all the time.

Still missing - answers to even one question.

Have you figured out if I am a master electrician yet?

Have you figured out that your source does not agree with you?
Why does your source say "properly installed and unaltered K&T wiring is
not an inherent fire hazard"? Is your source wrong or are you wrong?
You pointed at the "photos of hacked K&T wiring" in your source. Why
weren't most of the photos identified as involving K&T wiring? Couldn't
your source, which was about K&T wiring, find hacked K&T wiring?
Why does your source, when it does some rewiring, leave K&T? Aren't they
as smart as you are? How could they do that in your home state?

Mike Holt is well known in electrical circles. In his discussion forums
why don't electricians share your paranoia about K&T? Are they stupid?
Why do they just think K&T is a wiring method that just has to follow
NEC rules?

Why was the NEC change not based on data indicating a problem?
Why do many jurisdictions, including at least 5 whole states, allow
insulating K&T wiring?
Why does your source insulate over K&T? Aren't they as smart as you are?
Why does your state, PA, also allow insulating over K&T (as is done by
your source)?
Why did the "Illinois report", to a state agency, not find significant
numbers of house with K&T wiring and insulation where the insulation
caused a fire? They looked for a problem and couldn't find it. Weren't
the authors as smart as you are? Where is the data about fires in the
huge number of K&T houses that have been insulated? So many houses and
no problem?

Even creationists answer questions.

--
bud--

Hi Bud, see your still spewing nonsense

If insurance requires all K&T is taken out of service, and its a LOT,
then most places require a complete rewire bringing the home to
current code.

Complete nonsense. The NEC only covers the work done.
There is no jurisdiction that will require outlets be added so any point
is 6 ft max from an outlet (the current NEC requirement).

if you get a permit, GFCIs, main breaker panel, arc fault, receptables
every X feet, ground jumper at meter, ground rods at service etc etc
etc.

Your stupidity is astounding.
With minimal reading ability you could look at the "case studies" in
your source and see that what you say is nonsense.

you cant just replace the K&T with one outlet per room. not and pass
inspection

Cite.

of course code means nothing to you, no doubt you hack the wiring
everywhere you go.

You are beyond pathetic.

or you would have at least a little respect for the NEC and what they
do.

One of us has a licence and understands the scope and content of the NEC.


Have you figured out yet that your source from your state totally
demolishes your opinions?

Why does your source say "properly installed and unaltered K&T wiring is
not an inherent fire hazard"? Is your source wrong or are you wrong?
You pointed at the "photos of hacked K&T wiring" in your source. Why
weren't most of the photos identified as involving K&T wiring? Couldn't
your source, which was about K&T wiring, find hacked K&T wiring?
Why does your source, when it does some rewiring, leave K&T? Aren't they
as smart as you are? How could they do that in your home state?

Mike Holt is well known in electrical circles. In his discussion forums
why don't electricians share your paranoia about K&T? Are they stupid?
Why do they just think K&T is a wiring method that just has to follow
NEC rules?

Why was the NEC change not based on data indicating a problem?
Why do many jurisdictions, including at least 5 whole states, allow
insulating K&T wiring?
Why does your source insulate over K&T? Aren't they as smart as you are?
Why does your state, PA, also allow insulating over K&T (as is done by
your source)?
Why did the "Illinois report", to a state agency, not find significant
numbers of house with K&T wiring and insulation where the insulation
caused a fire? They looked for a problem and couldn't find it. Weren't
the authors as smart as you are? Where is the data about fires in the
huge number of K&T houses that have been insulated? So many houses and
no problem?

Do you still think the NEC applies even when the controlling
jurisdiction has an electrical code different from the NEC?

Does the NEC still allow K&T to be refed, just like it was in my
mother's old house over 50 years ago?

Have you figured out if I am a master electrician yet?

Still can't answer the questions?

--
bud--

On Oct 21, 11:12�am, bud-- wrote:
wrote:
On Oct 20, 9:08 am, bud-- wrote:
wrote:
where the insulation
caused a fire? They looked for a problem and couldn't find it. Weren't
the authors as smart as you are? Where is the data about fires in the
huge number of K&T houses that have been insulated? So many houses and
no problem?
But reality doesn't bother a fanatic.
--
bud--
bud has lost it........ but he is funny to read.
hallerb clings to his opinions, just like the creationists.
All hallerb has are his opinions. Even his _own source_ disagrees with him.

disagreeing with the NEC is buds hobby.............
Not understanding the NEC is hallerb's hobby.

Do you still think with a major rewire the whole house has to meet the
current NEC (like receptacle spacing)?

Do you still think the NEC applies even when the controlling
jurisdiction has an electrical code different from the NEC?

Does the NEC still allow K&T to be refed, just like it was in my
mother's old house over 50 years ago?

and for bthose who had a home fire caused by insulating K&T........
bud doesnt care.................
Ho-hum.
Still missing - data that shows there is a significant hazard in the
very large number of houses that have K&T wiring and have been
insulated. The "Illinois report" looked and couldn't find such data.
But hallerb doesn't care.
He believes there are fires all the time.

Still missing - answers to even one question.

Have you figured out if I am a master electrician yet?

Have you figured out that your source does not agree with you?
Why does your source say "properly installed and unaltered K&T wiring is
not an inherent fire hazard"? Is your source wrong or are you wrong?
You pointed at the "photos of hacked K&T wiring" in your source. Why
weren't most of the photos identified as involving K&T wiring? Couldn't
your source, which was about K&T wiring, find hacked K&T wiring?
Why does your source, when it does some rewiring, leave K&T? Aren't they
as smart as you are? How could they do that in your home state?

Mike Holt is well known in electrical circles. In his discussion forums
why don't electricians share your paranoia about K&T? Are they stupid?
Why do they just think K&T is a wiring method that just has to follow
NEC rules?

Why was the NEC change not based on data indicating a problem?
Why do many jurisdictions, including at least 5 whole states, allow
insulating K&T wiring?
Why does your source insulate over K&T? Aren't they as smart as you are?
Why does your state, PA, also allow insulating over K&T (as is done by
your source)?
Why did the "Illinois report", to a state agency, not find significant
numbers of house with K&T wiring and insulation where the insulation
caused a fire? They looked for a problem and couldn't find it. Weren't
the authors as smart as you are? Where is the data about fires in the
huge number of K&T houses that have been insulated? So many houses and
no problem?

Even creationists answer questions.

--
bud--

Hi Bud, see your still spewing nonsense

If insurance requires all K&T is taken out of service, and its a LOT,
then most places require a complete rewire bringing the home to
current code.

Complete nonsense. The NEC only covers the work done.
There is no jurisdiction that will require outlets be added so any point
is 6 ft max from an outlet (the current NEC requirement).

if you get a permit, GFCIs, main breaker panel, arc fault, receptables
every X feet, ground jumper at meter, ground rods at service etc etc
etc.

Your stupidity is astounding.
With minimal reading ability you could look at the "case studies" in
your source and see that what you say is nonsense.

you cant just replace the K&T with one outlet per room. not and pass
inspection

Cite.

of course code means nothing to you, no doubt you hack the wiring
everywhere you go.

You are beyond pathetic.

or you would have at least a little respect for the NEC and what they
do.

One of us has a licence and understands the scope and content of the NEC.

Have you figured out yet that your source from your state totally
demolishes your opinions?

Why does your source say "properly installed and unaltered K&T wiring is
not an inherent fire hazard"? Is your source wrong or are you wrong?
You pointed at the "photos of hacked K&T wiring" in your source. Why
weren't most of the photos identified as involving K&T wiring? Couldn't
your source, which was about K&T wiring, find hacked K&T wiring?
Why does your source, when it does some rewiring, leave K&T? Aren't they
as smart as you are? How could they do that in your home state?

Mike Holt is well known in electrical circles. In his discussion forums
why don't electricians share your paranoia about K&T? Are they stupid?
Why do they just think K&T is a wiring method that just has to follow
NEC rules?

Why was the NEC change not based on data indicating a problem?
Why do many jurisdictions, including at least 5 whole states, allow
insulating K&T wiring?
Why does your source insulate over K&T? Aren't they as smart as you are?
Why does your state, PA, also allow insulating over K&T (as is done by
your source)?
Why did the "Illinois report", to a state agency, not find significant
numbers of house with K&T wiring and insulation where the insulation
caused a fire? They looked for a problem and couldn't find it. Weren't
the authors as smart as you are? Where is the data about fires in the
huge number of K&T houses that have been insulated? So many houses and
no problem?

Do you still think the NEC applies even when the controlling
jurisdiction has an electrical code different from the NEC?

Does the NEC still allow K&T to be refed, just like it was in my
mother's old house over 50 years ago?

Have you figured out if I am a master electrician yet?

Still can't answer the questions?

--
bud--- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

bud if your a master electrician how many homes have you burned down?

nationwide most areas follow the NEC since if they dont and something
bad happens the local is on the hook........

no comment about the crash test of a 59 car vs a new one today?

wrote:
On Oct 21, 11:12�am, bud-- wrote:
wrote:

Hi Bud, see your still spewing nonsense
If insurance requires all K&T is taken out of service, and its a LOT,
then most places require a complete rewire bringing the home to
current code.

Complete nonsense. The NEC only covers the work done.
There is no jurisdiction that will require outlets be added so any point
is 6 ft max from an outlet (the current NEC requirement).

if you get a permit, GFCIs, main breaker panel, arc fault, receptables
every X feet, ground jumper at meter, ground rods at service etc etc
etc.

Your stupidity is astounding.
With minimal reading ability you could look at the "case studies" in
your source and see that what you say is nonsense.

you cant just replace the K&T with one outlet per room. not and pass
inspection

Cite.

of course code means nothing to you, no doubt you hack the wiring
everywhere you go.

You are beyond pathetic.

or you would have at least a little respect for the NEC and what they
do.

One of us has a licence and understands the scope and content of the NEC.

Have you figured out yet that your source from your state totally
demolishes your opinions?

Why does your source say "properly installed and unaltered K&T wiring is
not an inherent fire hazard"? Is your source wrong or are you wrong?
You pointed at the "photos of hacked K&T wiring" in your source. Why
weren't most of the photos identified as involving K&T wiring? Couldn't
your source, which was about K&T wiring, find hacked K&T wiring?
Why does your source, when it does some rewiring, leave K&T? Aren't they
as smart as you are? How could they do that in your home state?

Mike Holt is well known in electrical circles. In his discussion forums
why don't electricians share your paranoia about K&T? Are they stupid?
Why do they just think K&T is a wiring method that just has to follow
NEC rules?

Why was the NEC change not based on data indicating a problem?
Why do many jurisdictions, including at least 5 whole states, allow
insulating K&T wiring?
Why does your source insulate over K&T? Aren't they as smart as you are?
Why does your state, PA, also allow insulating over K&T (as is done by
your source)?
Why did the "Illinois report", to a state agency, not find significant
numbers of house with K&T wiring and insulation where the insulation
caused a fire? They looked for a problem and couldn't find it. Weren't
the authors as smart as you are? Where is the data about fires in the
huge number of K&T houses that have been insulated? So many houses and
no problem?

Do you still think the NEC applies even when the controlling
jurisdiction has an electrical code different from the NEC?

Does the NEC still allow K&T to be refed, just like it was in my
mother's old house over 50 years ago?

Have you figured out if I am a master electrician yet?

Still can't answer the questions?

--
bud--

- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Still too retarded to remove the retarded artifacts of your retarded
newsreader?

bud if your a master electrician how many homes have you burned down?

How long will you troll because you can't admit you are wrong?
_Your own source_ disagrees with *all* your opinions.

nationwide most areas follow the NEC since if they dont and something
bad happens the local is on the hook........

NEC goons will appear? The goons have a hook? Have the goons gone after
your source?
Do you understand that the hallucinations will stop if you stop using drugs?


Why can't you even answer one question?

Why does _your own source_ not bring the whole house up to the current
code like you say is required? Your source does only the electrical work
it wants to - often very little. Is your source wrong or are you wrong?

_Your own source_ doesn't even remove all the K&T wiring. Isn't your
source as smart as you are? How can they do that in your home state?

Does the NEC still allow K&T to be refed, just like it was in my
mother's old house over 50 years ago? Like your own source does?

Why does _your own source_ say "properly installed and unaltered K&T
wiring is not an inherent fire hazard"? Is your source wrong or are you
wrong?
You pointed at the "photos of hacked K&T wiring" in your source. Why
weren't most of the photos identified as involving K&T wiring? Couldn't
your source, which was about K&T wiring, find hacked K&T wiring?

Mike Holt is well known in electrical circles. In his discussion forums
why don't electricians share your paranoia about K&T? Are they stupid?
Why do they just think K&T is a wiring method that just has to follow
NEC rules?

Why was the NEC change not based on data indicating a problem?
Why do many jurisdictions, including at least 5 whole states, allow
insulating K&T wiring?
Why does _your own source_ insulate over K&T? Aren't they as smart as
you are?
Why does your own state, PA, also allow insulating over K&T (as is done
by your source)?
Why did the "Illinois report", to a state agency, not find significant
numbers of house with K&T wiring and insulation where the insulation
caused a fire? They looked for a problem and couldn't find it. Weren't
the authors as smart as you are? Where is the data about fires in the
huge number of K&T houses that have been insulated? So many houses and
no problem?

--
bud--

On Oct 22, 11:46�am, bud-- wrote:
wrote:
On Oct 21, 11:12 am, bud-- wrote:
wrote:
Hi Bud, see your still spewing nonsense
If insurance requires all K&T is taken out of service, and its a LOT,
then most places require a complete rewire bringing the home to
current code.

Complete nonsense. The NEC only covers the work done.
There is no jurisdiction that will require outlets be added so any point
is 6 ft max from an outlet (the current NEC requirement).

if you get a permit, GFCIs, main breaker panel, arc fault, receptables
every X feet, ground jumper at meter, ground rods at service etc etc
etc.

Your stupidity is astounding.
With minimal reading ability you could look at the "case studies" in
your source and see that what you say is nonsense.

you cant just replace the K&T with one outlet per room. not and pass
inspection

Cite.

of course code means nothing to you, no doubt you hack the wiring
everywhere you go.

You are beyond pathetic.

or you would have at least a little respect for the NEC and what they
do.

One of us has a licence and understands the scope and content of the NEC.

Have you figured out yet that your source from your state totally
demolishes your opinions?

Why does your source say "properly installed and unaltered K&T wiring is
not an inherent fire hazard"? Is your source wrong or are you wrong?
You pointed at the "photos of hacked K&T wiring" in your source. Why
weren't most of the photos identified as involving K&T wiring? Couldn't
your source, which was about K&T wiring, find hacked K&T wiring?
Why does your source, when it does some rewiring, leave K&T? Aren't they
as smart as you are? How could they do that in your home state?

Mike Holt is well known in electrical circles. In his discussion forums
why don't electricians share your paranoia about K&T? Are they stupid?
Why do they just think K&T is a wiring method that just has to follow
NEC rules?

Why was the NEC change not based on data indicating a problem?
Why do many jurisdictions, including at least 5 whole states, allow
insulating K&T wiring?
Why does your source insulate over K&T? Aren't they as smart as you are?
Why does your state, PA, also allow insulating over K&T (as is done by
your source)?
Why did the "Illinois report", to a state agency, not find significant
numbers of house with K&T wiring and insulation where the insulation
caused a fire? They looked for a problem and couldn't find it. Weren't
the authors as smart as you are? Where is the data about fires in the
huge number of K&T houses that have been insulated? So many houses and
no problem?

Do you still think the NEC applies even when the controlling
jurisdiction has an electrical code different from the NEC?

Does the NEC still allow K&T to be refed, just like it was in my
mother's old house over 50 years ago?

Have you figured out if I am a master electrician yet?

Still can't answer the questions?

--
bud--
- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Still too retarded to remove the retarded artifacts of your retarded
newsreader?

bud if your a master electrician how many homes have you burned down?

How long will you troll because you can't admit you are wrong?
_Your own source_ disagrees with *all* your opinions.

nationwide most areas follow the NEC since if they dont and something
bad happens the local is on the hook........

NEC goons will appear? The goons have a hook? Have the goons gone after
your source?
Do you understand that the hallucinations will stop if you stop using drugs?

Why can't you even answer one question?

Why does _your own source_ not bring the whole house up to the current
code like you say is required? Your source does only the electrical work
it wants to - often very little. Is your source wrong or are you wrong?

_Your own source_ doesn't even remove all the K&T wiring. Isn't your
source as smart as you are? How can they do that in your home state?

Does the NEC still allow K&T to be refed, just like it was in my
mother's old house over 50 years ago? Like your own source does?

Why does _your own source_ say "properly installed and unaltered K&T
wiring is not an inherent fire hazard"? Is your source wrong or are you
wrong?
You pointed at the "photos of hacked K&T wiring" in your source. Why
weren't most of the photos identified as involving K&T wiring? Couldn't
your source, which was about K&T wiring, find hacked K&T wiring?

Mike Holt is well known in electrical circles. In his discussion forums
why don't electricians share your paranoia about K&T? Are they stupid?
Why do they just think K&T is a wiring method that just has to follow
NEC rules?

Why was the NEC change not based on data indicating a problem?
Why do many jurisdictions, including at least 5 whole states, allow
insulating K&T wiring?
Why does _your own source_ insulate over K&T? Aren't they as smart as
you are?
Why does your own state, PA, also allow insulating over K&T (as is done
by your source)?
Why did the "Illinois report", to a state agency, not find significant
numbers of house with K&T wiring and insulation where the insulation
caused a fire? They looked for a problem and couldn't find it. Weren't
the authors as smart as you are? Where is the data about fires in the
huge number of K&T houses that have been insulated? So many houses and
no problem?

--
bud--- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Bud you OCD? you appear stuck

why havent you filled in your profile here? if you were truly a master
anything you should of done this.

if a local juristiction decides to not follow the NEC ( national
electrical code ) they can be fiancially liable.

you would know this if you were a electrician..............

obviously your not.........

wrote:
On Oct 22, 11:46�am, bud-- wrote:
wrote:
On Oct 21, 11:12 am, bud-- wrote:
wrote:
Hi Bud, see your still spewing nonsense
If insurance requires all K&T is taken out of service, and its a LOT,
then most places require a complete rewire bringing the home to
current code.
Complete nonsense. The NEC only covers the work done.
There is no jurisdiction that will require outlets be added so any point
is 6 ft max from an outlet (the current NEC requirement).
if you get a permit, GFCIs, main breaker panel, arc fault, receptables
every X feet, ground jumper at meter, ground rods at service etc etc
etc.
Your stupidity is astounding.
With minimal reading ability you could look at the "case studies" in
your source and see that what you say is nonsense.
you cant just replace the K&T with one outlet per room. not and pass
inspection
Cite.
of course code means nothing to you, no doubt you hack the wiring
everywhere you go.
You are beyond pathetic.
or you would have at least a little respect for the NEC and what they
do.
One of us has a licence and understands the scope and content of the NEC.
Have you figured out yet that your source from your state totally
demolishes your opinions?
Why does your source say "properly installed and unaltered K&T wiring is
not an inherent fire hazard"? Is your source wrong or are you wrong?
You pointed at the "photos of hacked K&T wiring" in your source. Why
weren't most of the photos identified as involving K&T wiring? Couldn't
your source, which was about K&T wiring, find hacked K&T wiring?
Why does your source, when it does some rewiring, leave K&T? Aren't they
as smart as you are? How could they do that in your home state?
Mike Holt is well known in electrical circles. In his discussion forums
why don't electricians share your paranoia about K&T? Are they stupid?
Why do they just think K&T is a wiring method that just has to follow
NEC rules?
Why was the NEC change not based on data indicating a problem?
Why do many jurisdictions, including at least 5 whole states, allow
insulating K&T wiring?
Why does your source insulate over K&T? Aren't they as smart as you are?
Why does your state, PA, also allow insulating over K&T (as is done by
your source)?
Why did the "Illinois report", to a state agency, not find significant
numbers of house with K&T wiring and insulation where the insulation
caused a fire? They looked for a problem and couldn't find it. Weren't
the authors as smart as you are? Where is the data about fires in the
huge number of K&T houses that have been insulated? So many houses and
no problem?
Do you still think the NEC applies even when the controlling
jurisdiction has an electrical code different from the NEC?
Does the NEC still allow K&T to be refed, just like it was in my
mother's old house over 50 years ago?
Have you figured out if I am a master electrician yet?
Still can't answer the questions?
--
bud--
- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Still too retarded to remove the retarded artifacts of your retarded
newsreader?

bud if your a master electrician how many homes have you burned down?
How long will you troll because you can't admit you are wrong?
_Your own source_ disagrees with *all* your opinions.

nationwide most areas follow the NEC since if they dont and something
bad happens the local is on the hook........
NEC goons will appear? The goons have a hook? Have the goons gone after
your source?
Do you understand that the hallucinations will stop if you stop using drugs?

Why can't you even answer one question?

Why does _your own source_ not bring the whole house up to the current
code like you say is required? Your source does only the electrical work
it wants to - often very little. Is your source wrong or are you wrong?

_Your own source_ doesn't even remove all the K&T wiring. Isn't your
source as smart as you are? How can they do that in your home state?

Does the NEC still allow K&T to be refed, just like it was in my
mother's old house over 50 years ago? Like your own source does?

Why does _your own source_ say "properly installed and unaltered K&T
wiring is not an inherent fire hazard"? Is your source wrong or are you
wrong?
You pointed at the "photos of hacked K&T wiring" in your source. Why
weren't most of the photos identified as involving K&T wiring? Couldn't
your source, which was about K&T wiring, find hacked K&T wiring?

Mike Holt is well known in electrical circles. In his discussion forums
why don't electricians share your paranoia about K&T? Are they stupid?
Why do they just think K&T is a wiring method that just has to follow
NEC rules?

Why was the NEC change not based on data indicating a problem?
Why do many jurisdictions, including at least 5 whole states, allow
insulating K&T wiring?
Why does _your own source_ insulate over K&T? Aren't they as smart as
you are?
Why does your own state, PA, also allow insulating over K&T (as is done
by your source)?
Why did the "Illinois report", to a state agency, not find significant
numbers of house with K&T wiring and insulation where the insulation
caused a fire? They looked for a problem and couldn't find it. Weren't
the authors as smart as you are? Where is the data about fires in the
huge number of K&T houses that have been insulated? So many houses and
no problem?

--
bud--


- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Still too retarded to remove the retarded artifacts of your retarded
newsreader?

Bud you OCD? you appear stuck

Still trolling because you can't admit you are wrong?
_Your own source_ disagrees with *all* your opinions.

why havent you filled in your profile here? if you were truly a master
anything you should of done this.

You are as uninformed about newsgroups as you are about electrical (what
a surprise).
Newsgroups don't have "profiles". Look them up in Wikipedia.

if a local juristiction decides to not follow the NEC ( national
electrical code ) they can be fiancially liable.

A non-governmental organization (the NFPA) has power over state, county
or municipal governmental agencies that are the organizations that adopt
codes? This may be your stupidest idea (out of many to choose from).

Jurisdictions can adopt the building codes they want. There are multiple
general building codes. It is not at all uncommon for jurisdictions to
modify the NEC.


Still missing (what a surprise) - answers to even one question.

Why does _your own source_ not bring the whole house up to the current
code like you say is required? Your source does only the electrical work
it wants to - often very little. Is your source wrong or are you wrong?

_Your own source_ doesn't even remove all the K&T wiring. Isn't your
source as smart as you are? How can they do that in your home state?

Does the NEC still allow K&T to be refed, just like it was in my
mother's old house over 50 years ago? Like your own source does?

Why does _your own source_ say "properly installed and unaltered K&T
wiring is not an inherent fire hazard"? Is your source wrong or are you
wrong?
You pointed at the "photos of hacked K&T wiring" in your source. Why
weren't most of the photos identified as involving K&T wiring? Couldn't
your source, which was about K&T wiring, find hacked K&T wiring?

Mike Holt is well known in electrical circles. In his discussion forums
why don't electricians share your paranoia about K&T? Are they stupid?
Why do they just think K&T is a wiring method that just has to follow
NEC rules?

Why was the NEC change not based on data indicating a problem?
Why do many jurisdictions, including at least 5 whole states, allow
insulating K&T wiring?
Why does _your own source_ insulate over K&T? Aren't they as smart as
you are?
Why does your own state, PA, also allow insulating over K&T (as is done
by your source)?
Why did the "Illinois report", to a state agency, not find significant
numbers of house with K&T wiring and insulation where the insulation
caused a fire? They looked for a problem and couldn't find it. Weren't
the authors as smart as you are? Where is the data about fires in the
huge number of K&T houses that have been insulated? So many houses and
no problem?

--
bud--

On Oct 23, 10:05�am, bud-- wrote:
wrote:
On Oct 22, 11:46 am, bud-- wrote:
wrote:
On Oct 21, 11:12 am, bud-- wrote:
wrote:
Hi Bud, see your still spewing nonsense
If insurance requires all K&T is taken out of service, and its a LOT,
then most places require a complete rewire bringing the home to
current code.
Complete nonsense. The NEC only covers the work done.
There is no jurisdiction that will require outlets be added so any point
is 6 ft max from an outlet (the current NEC requirement).
if you get a permit, GFCIs, main breaker panel, arc fault, receptables
every X feet, ground jumper at meter, ground rods at service etc etc
etc.
Your stupidity is astounding.
With minimal reading ability you could look at the "case studies" in
your source and see that what you say is nonsense.
you cant just replace the K&T with one outlet per room. not and pass
inspection
Cite.
of course code means nothing to you, no doubt you hack the wiring
everywhere you go.
You are beyond pathetic.
or you would have at least a little respect for the NEC and what they
do.
One of us has a licence and understands the scope and content of the NEC.
Have you figured out yet that your source from your state totally
demolishes your opinions?
Why does your source say "properly installed and unaltered K&T wiring is
not an inherent fire hazard"? Is your source wrong or are you wrong?
You pointed at the "photos of hacked K&T wiring" in your source. Why
weren't most of the photos identified as involving K&T wiring? Couldn't
your source, which was about K&T wiring, find hacked K&T wiring?
Why does your source, when it does some rewiring, leave K&T? Aren't they
as smart as you are? How could they do that in your home state?
Mike Holt is well known in electrical circles. In his discussion forums
why don't electricians share your paranoia about K&T? Are they stupid?
Why do they just think K&T is a wiring method that just has to follow
NEC rules?
Why was the NEC change not based on data indicating a problem?
Why do many jurisdictions, including at least 5 whole states, allow
insulating K&T wiring?
Why does your source insulate over K&T? Aren't they as smart as you are?
Why does your state, PA, also allow insulating over K&T (as is done by
your source)?
Why did the "Illinois report", to a state agency, not find significant
numbers of house with K&T wiring and insulation where the insulation
caused a fire? They looked for a problem and couldn't find it. Weren't
the authors as smart as you are? Where is the data about fires in the
huge number of K&T houses that have been insulated? So many houses and
no problem?
Do you still think the NEC applies even when the controlling
jurisdiction has an electrical code different from the NEC?
Does the NEC still allow K&T to be refed, just like it was in my
mother's old house over 50 years ago?
Have you figured out if I am a master electrician yet?
Still can't answer the questions?
--
bud--
- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Still too retarded to remove the retarded artifacts of your retarded
newsreader?

bud if your a master electrician how many homes have you burned down?
How long will you troll because you can't admit you are wrong?
_Your own source_ disagrees with *all* your opinions.

nationwide most areas follow the NEC since if they dont and something
bad happens the local is on the hook........
NEC goons will appear? The goons have a hook? Have the goons gone after
your source?
Do you understand that the hallucinations will stop if you stop using drugs?

Why can't you even answer one question?

Why does _your own source_ not bring the whole house up to the current
code like you say is required? Your source does only the electrical work
it wants to - often very little. Is your source wrong or are you wrong?

_Your own source_ doesn't even remove all the K&T wiring. Isn't your
source as smart as you are? How can they do that in your home state?

Does the NEC still allow K&T to be refed, just like it was in my
mother's old house over 50 years ago? Like your own source does?

Why does _your own source_ say "properly installed and unaltered K&T
wiring is not an inherent fire hazard"? Is your source wrong or are you
wrong?
You pointed at the "photos of hacked K&T wiring" in your source. Why
weren't most of the photos identified as involving K&T wiring? Couldn't
your source, which was about K&T wiring, find hacked K&T wiring?

Mike Holt is well known in electrical circles. In his discussion forums
why don't electricians share your paranoia about K&T? Are they stupid?
Why do they just think K&T is a wiring method that just has to follow
NEC rules?

Why was the NEC change not based on data indicating a problem?
Why do many jurisdictions, including at least 5 whole states, allow
insulating K&T wiring?
Why does _your own source_ insulate over K&T? Aren't they as smart as
you are?
Why does your own state, PA, also allow insulating over K&T (as is done
by your source)?
Why did the "Illinois report", to a state agency, not find significant
numbers of house with K&T wiring and insulation where the insulation
caused a fire? They looked for a problem and couldn't find it. Weren't
the authors as smart as you are? Where is the data about fires in the
huge number of K&T houses that have been insulated? So many houses and
no problem?

--
bud--
- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Still too retarded to remove the retarded artifacts of your retarded
newsreader?

Bud you OCD? you appear stuck

Still trolling because you can't admit you are wrong?
_Your own source_ disagrees with *all* your opinions.

why havent you filled in your profile here? if you were truly a master
anything you should of done this.

You are as uninformed about newsgroups as you are about electrical (what
a surprise).
Newsgroups don't have "profiles". Look them up in Wikipedia.

if a local juristiction decides to not follow the NEC ( national
electrical code ) they can be fiancially liable.

A non-governmental organization (the NFPA) has power over state, county
or municipal governmental agencies that are the organizations that adopt
codes? This may be your stupidest idea (out of many to choose from).

Jurisdictions can adopt the building codes they want. There are multiple
general building codes. �It is not at all uncommon for jurisdictions to
modify the NEC.

Still missing (what a surprise) - answers to even one question.

Why does _your own source_ not bring the whole house up to the current
code like you say is required? Your source does only the electrical work
it wants to - often very little. Is your source wrong or are you wrong?

_Your own source_ doesn't even remove all the K&T wiring. Isn't your
source as smart as you are? How can they do that in your home state?

Does the NEC still allow K&T to be refed, just like it was in my
mother's old house over 50 years ago? Like your own source does?

Why does _your own source_ say "properly installed and unaltered K&T
wiring is not an inherent fire hazard"? Is your source wrong or are you
wrong?
You pointed at the "photos of hacked K&T wiring" in your source. Why
weren't most of the photos identified as involving K&T wiring? Couldn't
your source, which was about K&T wiring, find hacked K&T wiring?

Mike Holt is well known in electrical circles. In his discussion forums
why don't electricians share your paranoia about K&T? Are they stupid?
Why do they just think K&T is a wiring method that just has to follow
NEC rules?

Why was the NEC change not based on data indicating a problem?
Why do many jurisdictions, including at least 5 whole states, allow
insulating K&T wiring?
Why does _your own source_ insulate over K&T? Aren't they as smart as
you are?
Why does your own state, PA, also allow insulating over K&T (as is done
by your source)?
Why did the "Illinois report", to a state agency, not find significant
numbers of house with K&T wiring and insulation where the insulation
caused a fire? They looked for a problem and couldn't find it. Weren't
the authors as smart as you are? Where is the data about fires in the
huge number of K&T houses that have been insulated? So many houses and
no problem?

--
bud--- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


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bud doesnt even know how to use the net, he is a master BSer

wrote:
On Oct 23, 10:05�am, bud-- wrote:
wrote:
On Oct 22, 11:46 am, bud-- wrote:
wrote:
On Oct 21, 11:12 am, bud-- wrote:
wrote:
Hi Bud, see your still spewing nonsense
If insurance requires all K&T is taken out of service, and its a LOT,
then most places require a complete rewire bringing the home to
current code.
Complete nonsense. The NEC only covers the work done.
There is no jurisdiction that will require outlets be added so any point
is 6 ft max from an outlet (the current NEC requirement).
if you get a permit, GFCIs, main breaker panel, arc fault, receptables
every X feet, ground jumper at meter, ground rods at service etc etc
etc.
Your stupidity is astounding.
With minimal reading ability you could look at the "case studies" in
your source and see that what you say is nonsense.
you cant just replace the K&T with one outlet per room. not and pass
inspection
Cite.
of course code means nothing to you, no doubt you hack the wiring
everywhere you go.
You are beyond pathetic.
or you would have at least a little respect for the NEC and what they
do.
One of us has a licence and understands the scope and content of the NEC.
Have you figured out yet that your source from your state totally
demolishes your opinions?
Why does your source say "properly installed and unaltered K&T wiring is
not an inherent fire hazard"? Is your source wrong or are you wrong?
You pointed at the "photos of hacked K&T wiring" in your source. Why
weren't most of the photos identified as involving K&T wiring? Couldn't
your source, which was about K&T wiring, find hacked K&T wiring?
Why does your source, when it does some rewiring, leave K&T? Aren't they
as smart as you are? How could they do that in your home state?
Mike Holt is well known in electrical circles. In his discussion forums
why don't electricians share your paranoia about K&T? Are they stupid?
Why do they just think K&T is a wiring method that just has to follow
NEC rules?
Why was the NEC change not based on data indicating a problem?
Why do many jurisdictions, including at least 5 whole states, allow
insulating K&T wiring?
Why does your source insulate over K&T? Aren't they as smart as you are?
Why does your state, PA, also allow insulating over K&T (as is done by
your source)?
Why did the "Illinois report", to a state agency, not find significant
numbers of house with K&T wiring and insulation where the insulation
caused a fire? They looked for a problem and couldn't find it. Weren't
the authors as smart as you are? Where is the data about fires in the
huge number of K&T houses that have been insulated? So many houses and
no problem?
Do you still think the NEC applies even when the controlling
jurisdiction has an electrical code different from the NEC?
Does the NEC still allow K&T to be refed, just like it was in my
mother's old house over 50 years ago?
Have you figured out if I am a master electrician yet?
Still can't answer the questions?
--
bud--
- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Still too retarded to remove the retarded artifacts of your retarded
newsreader?
bud if your a master electrician how many homes have you burned down?
How long will you troll because you can't admit you are wrong?
_Your own source_ disagrees with *all* your opinions.
nationwide most areas follow the NEC since if they dont and something
bad happens the local is on the hook........
NEC goons will appear? The goons have a hook? Have the goons gone after
your source?
Do you understand that the hallucinations will stop if you stop using drugs?
Why can't you even answer one question?
Why does _your own source_ not bring the whole house up to the current
code like you say is required? Your source does only the electrical work
it wants to - often very little. Is your source wrong or are you wrong?
_Your own source_ doesn't even remove all the K&T wiring. Isn't your
source as smart as you are? How can they do that in your home state?
Does the NEC still allow K&T to be refed, just like it was in my
mother's old house over 50 years ago? Like your own source does?
Why does _your own source_ say "properly installed and unaltered K&T
wiring is not an inherent fire hazard"? Is your source wrong or are you
wrong?
You pointed at the "photos of hacked K&T wiring" in your source. Why
weren't most of the photos identified as involving K&T wiring? Couldn't
your source, which was about K&T wiring, find hacked K&T wiring?
Mike Holt is well known in electrical circles. In his discussion forums
why don't electricians share your paranoia about K&T? Are they stupid?
Why do they just think K&T is a wiring method that just has to follow
NEC rules?
Why was the NEC change not based on data indicating a problem?
Why do many jurisdictions, including at least 5 whole states, allow
insulating K&T wiring?
Why does _your own source_ insulate over K&T? Aren't they as smart as
you are?
Why does your own state, PA, also allow insulating over K&T (as is done
by your source)?
Why did the "Illinois report", to a state agency, not find significant
numbers of house with K&T wiring and insulation where the insulation
caused a fire? They looked for a problem and couldn't find it. Weren't
the authors as smart as you are? Where is the data about fires in the
huge number of K&T houses that have been insulated? So many houses and
no problem?
--
bud--
- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Still too retarded to remove the retarded artifacts of your retarded
newsreader?

Bud you OCD? you appear stuck
Still trolling because you can't admit you are wrong?
_Your own source_ disagrees with *all* your opinions.

why havent you filled in your profile here? if you were truly a master
anything you should of done this.
You are as uninformed about newsgroups as you are about electrical (what
a surprise).
Newsgroups don't have "profiles". Look them up in Wikipedia.

if a local juristiction decides to not follow the NEC ( national
electrical code ) they can be fiancially liable.
A non-governmental organization (the NFPA) has power over state, county
or municipal governmental agencies that are the organizations that adopt
codes? This may be your stupidest idea (out of many to choose from).

Jurisdictions can adopt the building codes they want. There are multiple
general building codes. �It is not at all uncommon for jurisdictions to
modify the NEC.

Still missing (what a surprise) - answers to even one question.

Why does _your own source_ not bring the whole house up to the current
code like you say is required? Your source does only the electrical work
it wants to - often very little. Is your source wrong or are you wrong?

_Your own source_ doesn't even remove all the K&T wiring. Isn't your
source as smart as you are? How can they do that in your home state?

Does the NEC still allow K&T to be refed, just like it was in my
mother's old house over 50 years ago? Like your own source does?

Why does _your own source_ say "properly installed and unaltered K&T
wiring is not an inherent fire hazard"? Is your source wrong or are you
wrong?
You pointed at the "photos of hacked K&T wiring" in your source. Why
weren't most of the photos identified as involving K&T wiring? Couldn't
your source, which was about K&T wiring, find hacked K&T wiring?

Mike Holt is well known in electrical circles. In his discussion forums
why don't electricians share your paranoia about K&T? Are they stupid?
Why do they just think K&T is a wiring method that just has to follow
NEC rules?

Why was the NEC change not based on data indicating a problem?
Why do many jurisdictions, including at least 5 whole states, allow
insulating K&T wiring?
Why does _your own source_ insulate over K&T? Aren't they as smart as
you are?
Why does your own state, PA, also allow insulating over K&T (as is done
by your source)?
Why did the "Illinois report", to a state agency, not find significant
numbers of house with K&T wiring and insulation where the insulation
caused a fire? They looked for a problem and couldn't find it. Weren't
the authors as smart as you are? Where is the data about fires in the
huge number of K&T houses that have been insulated? So many houses and
no problem?

--
bud--


- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

The usual retarded artifacts from the retarded newsreader used by the
retarded poster.


This person has not created a profile.

You are as ignorant about usenet newsgroups you are about electrical.
You think newsgroups are owned by google.


And you continue trolling because you can't admit you are wrong.
Your opinions have been demolished by _your own source_ from your own state.

You are unable to answer even one question.

Why does _your own source_ not bring the whole house up to the current
code like you say is required? Your source does only the electrical work
it wants to - often very little. Is your source wrong or are you wrong?

_Your own source_ doesn't even remove all the K&T wiring. Isn't your
source as smart as you are? How can they do that in your home state?

Does the NEC still allow K&T to be refed, just like it was in my
mother's old house over 50 years ago? Like your own source does?

Why does _your own source_ say "properly installed and unaltered K&T
wiring is not an inherent fire hazard"? Is your source wrong or are you
wrong?
You pointed at the "photos of hacked K&T wiring" in your source. Why
weren't most of the photos identified as involving K&T wiring? Couldn't
your source, which was about K&T wiring, find hacked K&T wiring?

Mike Holt is well known in electrical circles. In his discussion forums
why don't electricians share your paranoia about K&T? Are they stupid?
Why do they just think K&T is a wiring method that just has to follow
NEC rules?

Why was the NEC change not based on data indicating a problem?
Why do many jurisdictions, including at least 5 whole states, allow
insulating K&T wiring?
Why does _your own source_ insulate over K&T? Aren't they as smart as
you are?
Why does your own state, PA, also allow insulating over K&T (as is done
by your source)?
Why did the "Illinois report", to a state agency, not find significant
numbers of house with K&T wiring and insulation where the insulation
caused a fire? They looked for a problem and couldn't find it. Weren't
the authors as smart as you are? Where is the data about fires in the
huge number of K&T houses that have been insulated? So many houses and
no problem?

--
bud--

The usual retarded artifacts from the retarded newsreader used by the
retarded poster.


sad for you people repeatedly accusiung others of being retarded often
means the accuser has mental problems themselves.

hopefully you will get help soon so you can again contribuite to
society

wrote:
The usual retarded artifacts from the retarded newsreader used by the
retarded poster.


sad for you people repeatedly accusiung others of being retarded often
means the accuser has mental problems themselves.

You regularly demonstrate your retardation.

Such as by your inability admit you are wrong.
Your opinions have been demolished by your own source from your own state.
So you turn into a troll. And try to change the subject.


Still unable to answer even answer one question?

Why does _your own source_ not bring the whole house up to the current
code like you say is required? Your source does only the electrical work
it wants to - often very little. Is your source wrong or are you wrong?

_Your own source_ doesn't even remove all the K&T wiring. Isn't your
source as smart as you are? How can they do that in your home state?

Does the NEC still allow K&T to be refed, just like it was in my
mother's old house over 50 years ago? Like your own source does?

Why does _your own source_ say "properly installed and unaltered K&T
wiring is not an inherent fire hazard"? Is your source wrong or are you
wrong?
You pointed at the "photos of hacked K&T wiring" in your source. Why
weren't most of the photos identified as involving K&T wiring? Couldn't
your source, which was about K&T wiring, find hacked K&T wiring?

Mike Holt is well known in electrical circles. In his discussion forums
why don't electricians share your paranoia about K&T? Are they stupid?
Why do they just think K&T is a wiring method that just has to follow
NEC rules?

Why was the NEC change not based on data indicating a problem?
Why do many jurisdictions, including at least 5 whole states, allow
insulating K&T wiring?
Why does _your own source_ insulate over K&T? Aren't they as smart as
you are?
Why does your own state, PA, also allow insulating over K&T (as is done
by your source)?
Why did the "Illinois report", to a state agency, not find significant
numbers of house with K&T wiring and insulation where the insulation
caused a fire? They looked for a problem and couldn't find it. Weren't
the authors as smart as you are? Where is the data about fires in the
huge number of K&T houses that have been insulated? So many houses and
no problem?

--
bud--

On Oct 26, 3:57�am, bud-- wrote:
wrote:
The usual retarded artifacts from the retarded newsreader used by the
retarded poster.

sad for you people repeatedly accusiung others of being retarded often
means the accuser has mental problems themselves.

You regularly demonstrate your retardation.

Such as by your inability admit you are wrong.
Your opinions have been demolished by your own source from your own state..
So you turn into a troll. And try to change the subject.

Still unable to answer even answer one question?

Why does _your own source_ not bring the whole house up to the current
code like you say is required? Your source does only the electrical work
it wants to - often very little. Is your source wrong or are you wrong?

_Your own source_ doesn't even remove all the K&T wiring. Isn't your
source as smart as you are? How can they do that in your home state?

Does the NEC still allow K&T to be refed, just like it was in my
mother's old house over 50 years ago? Like your own source does?

Why does _your own source_ say "properly installed and unaltered K&T
wiring is not an inherent fire hazard"? Is your source wrong or are you
wrong?
You pointed at the "photos of hacked K&T wiring" in your source. Why
weren't most of the photos identified as involving K&T wiring? Couldn't
your source, which was about K&T wiring, find hacked K&T wiring?

Mike Holt is well known in electrical circles. In his discussion forums
why don't electricians share your paranoia about K&T? Are they stupid?
Why do they just think K&T is a wiring method that just has to follow
NEC rules?

Why was the NEC change not based on data indicating a problem?
Why do many jurisdictions, including at least 5 whole states, allow
insulating K&T wiring?
Why does _your own source_ insulate over K&T? Aren't they as smart as
you are?
Why does your own state, PA, also allow insulating over K&T (as is done
by your source)?
Why did the "Illinois report", to a state agency, not find significant
numbers of house with K&T wiring and insulation where the insulation
caused a fire? They looked for a problem and couldn't find it. Weren't
the authors as smart as you are? Where is the data about fires in the
huge number of K&T houses that have been insulated? So many houses and
no problem?

--
bud--

No doubt the NEC rules were based on the following.

theres probably no unaltered K&T wiring remaining........

in a 100 years people make changes............. most changes cant be
inspected properly


besides whats it worth to avoid a home fire? people can and do
die...........

besides possible loss of life the inconvenience is unreal.

with the extreme high costs of home fires .........

incidently a friend stopped by tonight he was a fire investigator, had
lots of training and said K&T is bad news / obsolete.

he has worked as a local code inspector and says the NEC is the gold
standard for regulations around here,.

wrote:
On Oct 26, 3:57�am, bud-- wrote:
wrote:
The usual retarded artifacts from the retarded newsreader used by the
retarded poster.
sad for you people repeatedly accusiung others of being retarded often
means the accuser has mental problems themselves.
You regularly demonstrate your retardation.

Such as by your inability admit you are wrong.
Your opinions have been demolished by your own source from your own state.
So you turn into a troll. And try to change the subject.

Still unable to answer even answer one question?

Why does _your own source_ not bring the whole house up to the current
code like you say is required? Your source does only the electrical work
it wants to - often very little. Is your source wrong or are you wrong?

_Your own source_ doesn't even remove all the K&T wiring. Isn't your
source as smart as you are? How can they do that in your home state?

Does the NEC still allow K&T to be refed, just like it was in my
mother's old house over 50 years ago? Like your own source does?

Why does _your own source_ say "properly installed and unaltered K&T
wiring is not an inherent fire hazard"? Is your source wrong or are you
wrong?
You pointed at the "photos of hacked K&T wiring" in your source. Why
weren't most of the photos identified as involving K&T wiring? Couldn't
your source, which was about K&T wiring, find hacked K&T wiring?

Mike Holt is well known in electrical circles. In his discussion forums
why don't electricians share your paranoia about K&T? Are they stupid?
Why do they just think K&T is a wiring method that just has to follow
NEC rules?

Why was the NEC change not based on data indicating a problem?
Why do many jurisdictions, including at least 5 whole states, allow
insulating K&T wiring?
Why does _your own source_ insulate over K&T? Aren't they as smart as
you are?
Why does your own state, PA, also allow insulating over K&T (as is done
by your source)?
Why did the "Illinois report", to a state agency, not find significant
numbers of house with K&T wiring and insulation where the insulation
caused a fire? They looked for a problem and couldn't find it. Weren't
the authors as smart as you are? Where is the data about fires in the
huge number of K&T houses that have been insulated? So many houses and
no problem?

--
bud--

No doubt the NEC rules were based on the following.

With minimal reading ability you could find out what the NEC insulation
rule was based on. It is in the "Illinois report". What a surprise - you
are wrong again.

theres probably no unaltered K&T wiring remaining........

The Ouija board again.

in a 100 years people make changes............. most changes cant be
inspected properly

More Ouija board.


Still can't admit you are wrong so you continue to troll.
_Your own source_ disagrees with *all* your opinions.


And you still can't answer even one question.

Why does _your own source_ not bring the whole house up to the current
code like you say is required? Your source does only the electrical work
it wants to - often very little. Is your source wrong or are you wrong?

_Your own source_ doesn't even remove all the K&T wiring. Isn't your
source as smart as you are? How can they do that in your home state?

Does the NEC still allow K&T to be refed, just like it was in my
mother's old house over 50 years ago? Like your own source does?

Why does _your own source_ say "properly installed and unaltered K&T
wiring is not an inherent fire hazard"? Is your source wrong or are you
wrong?
You pointed at the "photos of hacked K&T wiring" in your source. Why
weren't most of the photos identified as involving K&T wiring? Couldn't
your source, which was about K&T wiring, find hacked K&T wiring?

Mike Holt is well known in electrical circles. In his discussion forums
why don't electricians share your paranoia about K&T? Are they stupid?
Why do they just think K&T is a wiring method that just has to follow
NEC rules?

Why was the NEC change not based on data indicating a problem?
Why do many jurisdictions, including at least 5 whole states, allow
insulating K&T wiring?
Why does _your own source_ insulate over K&T? Aren't they as smart as
you are?
Why does your own state, PA, also allow insulating over K&T (as is done
by your source)?
Why did the "Illinois report", to a state agency, not find significant
numbers of house with K&T wiring and insulation where the insulation
caused a fire? They looked for a problem and couldn't find it. Weren't
the authors as smart as you are? Where is the data about fires in the
huge number of K&T houses that have been insulated? So many houses and
no problem?

--
bud--

http://www.google.com/search?q=home%...&ned=us&tab=nw

hey bud if you can comprehend whats in this link you might better
understand whats going on