On Fri, 16 Oct 2009 12:04:44 -0500, bud--
wrote:

wrote:
On Thu, 15 Oct 2009 11:53:22 -0500, bud--
wrote:

wrote:
On Wed, 14 Oct 2009 13:03:03 -0500, bud--
wrote:

bob haller wrote:
On Oct 14, 11:10?am, Douglas Johnson wrote:
bob haller wrote:

You can't win on technical issues so you attack?
--
bud---
ATTACK take a look its you who attacked...........
"your [sic] probably defending K&T because your [sic] too cheap to
replace yours"

Why are your posts so stupid?
Haven't you read I have never had K&T?
You can't win on technical issues so you attack?

bud asked if I knew what a master
electrician was, and has refused to answer what his credentials
are.........
Already answered. You acknowledged my answer. Now you are too stupid to
know.

Just like you were too stupid to figure out that your source does not
agree with you.
Why does your source say "properly installed and unaltered K&T wiring is
not an inherent fire hazard"? Is your source wrong or are you wrong?
You pointed at the "photos of hacked K&T wiring" in your source. Why
weren't most of the photos identified as involving K&T wiring? Couldn't
your source, which was about K&T wiring, find hacked K&T wiring?
Why does your source insulate over K&T wiring? Aren't they as smart as
you are? Apparently your state, PA, allows insulating over K&T. Why is
that? Don't they listen to you?

my poistion is backed by the NEC, his just a few limited areas
Why was the NEC change not based on data indicating a problem?
Why do many jurisdictions, including at least 5 whole states, allow
insulating K&T wiring? Why does your state, PA, also allow insulating
over K&T (as is done by your source)? Aren't they as smart as you are?

The "Illinois report" was to a state agency about the safety of K&T
wiring. Why couldn't the report find significant numbers of house with
K&T wiring and insulation where the insulation caused a fire? Weren't
the authors as smart as you are? Where is the data about fires in the
huge number of K&T houses that have been insulated?

Mike Holt is well known in electrical circles. In his discussion forums
why don't electricians share your paranoia about K&T? Are they stupid?
Why do they just think K&T is a wiring method that just has to follow
NEC rules?

Do you really not know what a master electrician is?

My mother's house was "properly rewired" over 50 years ago. The
electricians just re-fed the K&T.
Does the NEC allow that now? (Hint: I have answered that numerous times.)
50 years ago that WAS properly rewired. Today it falls somewhat short.
It is refreshing to know there are still people that use a Ouija board.
The rewire included a couple kitchen circuits and a laundry circuit,
amongst other additions.

If PROPERLY done for lighting circuits it is most likely still safe.
If new circuits are tied into the panel directly, with no connection
to the K&T they are safe.

The insurance companies don't know if it was done correctly
Insurance companies don't know if modifications to old 2-wire tar/paper
jacketed Romex was done correctly either.

- so many
say NO K&T and others require certification by a qualified electrician
that any remaining K&T is properly connected and in safe condition.
It only makes sense on the part of the insurance companies, as they
are extremely RISK AVERSE.
Still missing - the actuarial data that shows K&T is a significantly
larger problem that other older wiring. What has been shown is that an
insurance company, when challenged, did not provide that data and was
ordered to provide insurance. And that State Farm had a surcharge in MN
that it was ordered to drop because it had no substantiating data.

How about the PA houses (perhaps hallerb's) where inspection was never
required.
Should an insurance company insure them?
Are they safer than a house with K&T where work was inspected?

It can be very large potatoes depending on the construction and what is
being done. For instance replacing ceiling lights and wall switches on a
1st floor when there is a 2nd floor is a major job. (This is obvious in
a recent question from blueman.)


Actually, that is the EASY part. Repair to flooring are the SIMPLEST
and CHEAPEST part of renovating a house. In many cases going through
the second story floor to wire the main floor is simpler than doing
the second floor from the attic (assuming a non-usable "attic" space)

When we wired the old "homestead" back in the sixties all the
existing K&T was stripped out for scrap, and boards were removed from
the upper story floor to gain access to wire the main floor, as well
as the upper floor with exception of ceiling lighting (which there was
not a lot of in a slope-ceilinged story-and-a-half house which was 88
years old at the time - and to that point TOTALLY unmolested.

I would never remove boards from my tight hardwood floors - the boards
would likely have to be replaced with matching wood then finished to
match. I would rather match plaster and paint to match.

And my subfloor runs across the joists with the finish floor parallel
the joists. If you remove a couple finish floor boards you then have to
cut the subfloor. That cuts the structural strength of the floor.
Not at all if it is properly replaced.

I have never seen a finish floor in a house I worked on that I would
consider cutting. And I have never seen electricians cut the floor. It
may have been done long ago.

Hardwood floors would be a bit more of a problem - This house had
pine board floor with linoleum on it. Many have plywood (or even
aspenite) sheathing today with vinyl, or carpet covering.
On the pine T&G we just ripped the board down the center and popped it
out. Dad put a cleat on the back of the one part, and screwed and
glued the second half to the cleat after fitting the T&G back
together. Absolutely no loss of integrety, and new flooring covered it
that you couldn't tell it had ever been open. He did a LOT of rural
electrification work back in those years, and very seldom had to do
much plaster removal.

hallerb's source includes "case studies" of wiring changes done in
conjunction with insulating houses. In no case was all of the K&T
removed (as hallerb insists must be done for safety). In no case were
any floor boards removed except in attics. In one house there was quite
a bit of surface raceway added.


Still missing - data that says K&T is significantly more hazardous than
other wiring.
hallerb's source disagrees with him. And hallerb's source leaves K&T
wiring in the rewiring they show - in hallerb's home state.

Still missing - data that shows there is a significant hazard in the
very large number of houses that have K&T wiring and have been
insulated. The "Illinois report" looked and couldn't find such data.
hallerb's source insulates over K&T.

You and hallerb are long on opinion and short on facts. The NEC was also
short on facts in the code change.