bob haller wrote:
On Sep 21, 12:58�am, bud-- wrote:
bob haller wrote:
On Sep 20, 12:00 am, bud-- wrote:
bob haller wrote:
On Sep 19, 2:42 am, bud-- wrote:
wrote:
On Thu, 17 Sep 2009 16:31:07 -0500, bud--
wrote:
The notion that insurance companies just go around "redlining" for no
reason is silly.
The notion that insurance companies have gone around "redlining"
neighborhoods is well documented. The neighborhood are likely to have
old houses. Old houses may have K&T. They also tended to have a black
population (maybe coincidence?)
Likely have a very high loss ratio in the neighbourhood.
They have their factors which affect how much they
may or may not pay out depending on multiple factors.
Like casualty [loss] data?
Personally, I
would not want to insure a 100 year old house with hacked up knob and
tube as described in the original post.
Personally I wouldn't want to insure my kid's house (when he bought it)
with hacked up Romex and other wiring.
Hacked up, along with not many outlets, is a separate issue.
IMHO K&T is safer than the early Romex (which also did not have a ground).
And what about the early 60 degree rated Romex that is buried in
insulation? Twice the heat, wires in close proximity?
Maybe insurance companies could look at the condition of the wiring?
They could at least look at casualty data. No indication yet that they did.
I guess I'd guiltu of
"redlining", whatever exactly that term means.
It was (maybe metaphorically) drawing a "red line" on a map and not
insuring houses in that area. I believe it is illegal in many (all?)
states, so insurance companies may use other means to accomplish the
same thing.
Insurance companies
are in the business of making money. Denying to take policy when
there is not substantial increased risk makes no sense.
Which goes back to the same question - what is the evidence there is
increased risk? Still missing.
Anecdotal evidence in this thread (clare's younger brother) proves Romex
is hazardous.
You are being STUPID.
The romex was not the hazard. The house was. And the installation of
the Romex.
The hazard is anecdotal proofs, which this thread seems to be full of.
--
bud--- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
the proof the OPs wiring is a hazard is found in his first post. he
admitted its been hack repaired and altered. the perfect combo for a
home fire
since the OP is working for a client he will be on the hook if theres
a fire, even years later.
Whatever the condition from the OP, that is not a reflection on K&T in
general, as you want to claim.
Still missing - evidence that K&T is an intrinsic hazard. Or that it is
more of a problem than, for example, early 2 wire Romex.
--
bud--
- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
So are you too lazy or too stupid to edit out this garbage?



obviously anything thats been around this long is obsolete, lacks new
safety upgrades, and is great risk of hack repairs over its life.
"Obviously" is not proof. Obviously missing - evidence that K&T is an
intrinsic hazard. I don't believe electricians in this newsgroup agree
with you.

What evidence is there *hack* repairs are common on K&T? I don't
remember ever seeing any.

Is *hack" wiring more common than with other wiring methods?

Your opinion doesn't count. Where is a source? Never anything but
opinion and anecdotes.

In the link supplied previously an insurance company did not provide
evidence when challenged. Insurance companies employ lots of actuaries
to determine risk. I see no reason to believe insurance companies have
determined such a risk.

have you called statre farm to confirm they wouldnt write new policies
for K&T homes?
Have you read that in Minnesota State Farm (probably) had a surcharge on
older services and the state insurance regulator ordered the surcharge
dropped.

Because an insurance company does something does not necessarily mean
there is a rational basis. Where is your evidence?

I see no reason to believe State Farm is not redlining.

--
bud--



- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Still too lazy/stupid.

would yopu be happy to pay say 100 bucks more a month for homeowners
insurance so homes with K&T and other obsolete systems can have
insurance?

That begs the question of whether K&T is significantly more hazardous
than other wiring. You have still not provided a reliable source that
says it is. The only relevant link in this thread is that an insurance
company, which employs actuaries to get casualty information, did not
show K&T was a hazard when challenged.

Where is your evidence. All you provide is FUD.

are YOU stating the CURRENT NEC regulations havent made new installs
safer?

Also begs the question of whether existing K&T is significantly more
hazardous.

I have read that K&T has been 'recently' used in areas subject to
flooding because it dries out faster. K&T is allowed to be used by
"special permission".

--
bud--

On Sep 22, 10:37�am, bud-- wrote:
bob haller wrote:
On Sep 21, 12:58 am, bud-- wrote:
bob haller wrote:
On Sep 20, 12:00 am, bud-- wrote:
bob haller wrote:
On Sep 19, 2:42 am, bud-- wrote:
wrote:
On Thu, 17 Sep 2009 16:31:07 -0500, bud--
wrote:
The notion that insurance companies just go around "redlining" for no
reason is silly.
The notion that insurance companies have gone around "redlining"
neighborhoods is well documented. The neighborhood are likely to have
old houses. Old houses may have K&T. They also tended to have a black
population (maybe coincidence?)
Likely have a very high loss ratio in the neighbourhood.
They have their factors which affect how much they
may or may not pay out depending on multiple factors.
Like casualty [loss] data?
Personally, I
would not want to insure a 100 year old house with hacked up knob and
tube as described in the original post.
Personally I wouldn't want to insure my kid's house (when he bought it)
with hacked up Romex and other wiring.
Hacked up, along with not many outlets, is a separate issue.
IMHO K&T is safer than the early Romex (which also did not have a ground).
And what about the early 60 degree rated Romex that is buried in
insulation? Twice the heat, wires in close proximity?
Maybe insurance companies could look at the condition of the wiring?
They could at least look at casualty data. No indication yet that they did.
I guess I'd guiltu of
"redlining", whatever exactly that term means.
It was (maybe metaphorically) drawing a "red line" on a map and not
insuring houses in that area. I believe it is illegal in many (all?)
states, so insurance companies may use other means to accomplish the
same thing.
Insurance companies
are in the business of making money. Denying to take policy when
there is not substantial increased risk makes no sense.
Which goes back to the same question - what is the evidence there is
increased risk? Still missing.
Anecdotal evidence in this thread (clare's younger brother) proves Romex
is hazardous.
You are being STUPID.
The romex was not the hazard. The house was. And the installation of
the Romex.
The hazard is anecdotal proofs, which this thread seems to be full of.
--
bud--- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
the proof the OPs wiring is a hazard is found in his first post. he
admitted its been hack repaired and altered. the perfect combo for a
home fire
since the OP is working for a client he will be on the hook if theres
a fire, even years later.
Whatever the condition from the OP, that is not a reflection on K&T in
general, as you want to claim.
Still missing - evidence that K&T is an intrinsic hazard. Or that it is
more of a problem than, for example, early 2 wire Romex.
--
bud--
- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
So are you too lazy or too stupid to edit out this garbage?

obviously anything thats been around this long is obsolete, lacks new
safety upgrades, and is great risk of hack repairs over its life.
"Obviously" is not proof. Obviously missing - evidence that K&T is an
intrinsic hazard. I don't believe electricians in this newsgroup agree
with you.

What evidence is there *hack* repairs are common on K&T? I don't
remember ever seeing any.

Is *hack" wiring more common than with other wiring methods?

Your opinion doesn't count. Where is a source? Never anything but
opinion and anecdotes.

In the link supplied previously an insurance company did not provide
evidence when challenged. Insurance companies employ lots of actuaries
to determine risk. I see no reason to believe insurance companies have
determined such a risk.

have you called statre farm to confirm they wouldnt write new policies
for K&T homes?
Have you read that in Minnesota State Farm (probably) had a surcharge on
older services and the state insurance regulator ordered the surcharge
dropped.

Because an insurance company does something does not necessarily mean
there is a rational basis. Where is your evidence?

I see no reason to believe State Farm is not redlining.

--
bud--
- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Still too lazy/stupid.

would yopu be happy to pay say 100 bucks more a month for homeowners
insurance so homes with K&T and other obsolete systems can have
insurance?

That begs the question of whether K&T is significantly more hazardous
than other wiring. You have still not provided a reliable source that
says it is. The only relevant link in this thread is that an insurance
company, which employs actuaries to get casualty information, did not
show K&T was a hazard when challenged.

Where is your evidence. All you provide is FUD.

are YOU stating the CURRENT NEC regulations havent made new installs
safer?

Also begs the question of whether existing K&T is significantly more
hazardous.

I have read that K&T has been 'recently' used in areas subject to
flooding because it dries out faster. K&T is allowed to be used by
"special permission".

--
bud--- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

you ignored my questions and failed to respond to the specific issue.

would you pay more for homeowners insurance so people with K&T could
get insurance

please supply a link to the info of K&T being used today. does it have
a ground conductor? GFCI? arc fault breaker? boxes for connections?

bob haller wrote:
On Sep 22, 10:37�am, bud-- wrote:
bob haller wrote:
On Sep 21, 12:58 am, bud-- wrote:
bob haller wrote:
On Sep 20, 12:00 am, bud-- wrote:
bob haller wrote:
On Sep 19, 2:42 am, bud-- wrote:
wrote:
On Thu, 17 Sep 2009 16:31:07 -0500, bud--
wrote:
The notion that insurance companies just go around "redlining" for no
reason is silly.
The notion that insurance companies have gone around "redlining"
neighborhoods is well documented. The neighborhood are likely to have
old houses. Old houses may have K&T. They also tended to have a black
population (maybe coincidence?)
Likely have a very high loss ratio in the neighbourhood.
They have their factors which affect how much they
may or may not pay out depending on multiple factors.
Like casualty [loss] data?
Personally, I
would not want to insure a 100 year old house with hacked up knob and
tube as described in the original post.
Personally I wouldn't want to insure my kid's house (when he bought it)
with hacked up Romex and other wiring.
Hacked up, along with not many outlets, is a separate issue.
IMHO K&T is safer than the early Romex (which also did not have a ground).
And what about the early 60 degree rated Romex that is buried in
insulation? Twice the heat, wires in close proximity?
Maybe insurance companies could look at the condition of the wiring?
They could at least look at casualty data. No indication yet that they did.
I guess I'd guiltu of
"redlining", whatever exactly that term means.
It was (maybe metaphorically) drawing a "red line" on a map and not
insuring houses in that area. I believe it is illegal in many (all?)
states, so insurance companies may use other means to accomplish the
same thing.
Insurance companies
are in the business of making money. Denying to take policy when
there is not substantial increased risk makes no sense.
Which goes back to the same question - what is the evidence there is
increased risk? Still missing.
Anecdotal evidence in this thread (clare's younger brother) proves Romex
is hazardous.
You are being STUPID.
The romex was not the hazard. The house was. And the installation of
the Romex.
The hazard is anecdotal proofs, which this thread seems to be full of.
--
bud--- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
the proof the OPs wiring is a hazard is found in his first post. he
admitted its been hack repaired and altered. the perfect combo for a
home fire
since the OP is working for a client he will be on the hook if theres
a fire, even years later.
Whatever the condition from the OP, that is not a reflection on K&T in
general, as you want to claim.
Still missing - evidence that K&T is an intrinsic hazard. Or that it is
more of a problem than, for example, early 2 wire Romex.
--
bud--
- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
So are you too lazy or too stupid to edit out this garbage?
obviously anything thats been around this long is obsolete, lacks new
safety upgrades, and is great risk of hack repairs over its life.
"Obviously" is not proof. Obviously missing - evidence that K&T is an
intrinsic hazard. I don't believe electricians in this newsgroup agree
with you.
What evidence is there *hack* repairs are common on K&T? I don't
remember ever seeing any.
Is *hack" wiring more common than with other wiring methods?
Your opinion doesn't count. Where is a source? Never anything but
opinion and anecdotes.
In the link supplied previously an insurance company did not provide
evidence when challenged. Insurance companies employ lots of actuaries
to determine risk. I see no reason to believe insurance companies have
determined such a risk.
have you called statre farm to confirm they wouldnt write new policies
for K&T homes?
Have you read that in Minnesota State Farm (probably) had a surcharge on
older services and the state insurance regulator ordered the surcharge
dropped.
Because an insurance company does something does not necessarily mean
there is a rational basis. Where is your evidence?
I see no reason to believe State Farm is not redlining.
--
bud--
- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Still too lazy/stupid.

would yopu be happy to pay say 100 bucks more a month for homeowners
insurance so homes with K&T and other obsolete systems can have
insurance?
That begs the question of whether K&T is significantly more hazardous
than other wiring. You have still not provided a reliable source that
says it is. The only relevant link in this thread is that an insurance
company, which employs actuaries to get casualty information, did not
show K&T was a hazard when challenged.

Where is your evidence. All you provide is FUD.

are YOU stating the CURRENT NEC regulations havent made new installs
safer?
Also begs the question of whether existing K&T is significantly more
hazardous.

I have read that K&T has been 'recently' used in areas subject to
flooding because it dries out faster. K&T is allowed to be used by
"special permission".

--
bud--


- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Still too lazy/stupid.

you ignored my questions and failed to respond to the specific issue.

You continue your compulsive FUD.

The links to state agencies that have been provided say:
- an insurance company did not provide any justification for not
insuring a house with K&T
- an Illinois investigation of insulation around K&T found no record of
hazard - apparently you think they ignored the intrinsic hazard of the
K&T???

You have provided no reliable evidence that K&T is hazardous.

would you pay more for homeowners insurance so people with K&T could
get insurance

It is a red herring. Where is the casualty information that K&T is more
hazardous. Maybe you could call your buddies at State Farm and get it.

please supply a link to the info of K&T being used today. does it have
a ground conductor? GFCI? arc fault breaker? boxes for connections?

All I have read is that it was used 'recently'.

--
bud--

when anyone wit K&T decides to sell their home would they please
report back here with what happens?

I asked a realtor about this question yesterday, they had sold my oms
house, I bumped into them at the grocery store.

they said its not very common here anymore, at least partially because
you cant get homeowners insurance. at home resale time house must be
rewired to current code, or no insurance no sale.

he did report one derelict home sold, the buyer paid cash for a home
under 20 grand. he said the new owner had a home fire, not caused by
wiring and lost his entire life savings. owner was attempting to heat
house in winter totally by fireplace, chimney failed.

everyone should have homeowners insurance

On Sep 24, 8:32�am, bob haller wrote:
when anyone wit K&T decides to sell their home would they please
report back here with what happens?

I asked a realtor about this question yesterday, they had sold my oms
house, I bumped into them at the grocery store.

they said its not very common here anymore, at least partially because
you cant get homeowners insurance. at home resale time house must be
rewired to current code, or no insurance no sale.

he did report one derelict home sold, the buyer paid cash for a home
under 20 grand. he said the new owner had a home fire, not caused by
wiring and lost his entire life savings. owner was attempting to heat
house in winter totally by fireplace, chimney failed.

everyone should have homeowners insurance

my moms house

On Sep 24, 8:32*am, bob haller wrote:
when anyone wit K&T decides to sell their home would they please
report back here with what happens?

18 months ago. SW Ontario. Purchaser used a copy of a recent ESA
(Electrical Safety Authority) inspection provided by us to obtain
insurance. Of course, the major load circuits had been replaced
previously with current code wiring and a 200A service panel had been
installed. K&T was still present in some second floor lighting and
wall plug circuits.

On Sep 24, 8:32*am, bob haller wrote:
when anyone wit K&T decides to sell their home would they please
report back here with what happens?

18 months ago. SW Ontario. Purchaser used a copy of a recent ESA
(Electrical Safety Authority) inspection provided by us to obtain
insurance. Of course, the major load circuits had been replaced
previously with current code wiring and a 200A service panel had been
installed. K&T was still present in some second floor lighting and
wall plug circuits.

bob haller wrote:

they said its not very common here anymore, at least partially because
you cant get homeowners insurance. at home resale time house must be
rewired to current code, or no insurance no sale.

There is no possibility houses have to be rewired to the 2008NEC.
AFCIs on most circuits?
Kid-proof receptacles in most locations?
Receptacles at current spacing requirements?
Ufer earthing electrode required?
Boxes have light fixture or fan rating?
All wiring has a ground?
All grounded receptacles?
Eliminate almost all of the GFCI exceptions?
Replace old stove/dryer circuits that have a neutral but no ground?
Garages must have a ground wire in the feeder?
Everything meets the UL standards in effect now?

Either you misunderstood the agent or he is as wacked-out as you are.

K&T is code compliant.

Still missing - a reliable source that says K&T is hazardous.

--
bud--

bob haller wrote:

they said its not very common here anymore, at least partially because
you cant get homeowners insurance. at home resale time house must be
rewired to current code, or no insurance no sale.

There is no possibility houses have to be rewired to the 2008NEC.
AFCIs on most circuits?
Kid-proof receptacles in most locations?
Receptacles at current spacing requirements?
Ufer earthing electrode required?
Boxes have light fixture or fan rating?
All wiring has a ground?
All grounded receptacles?
Eliminate almost all of the GFCI exceptions?
Replace old stove/dryer circuits that have a neutral but no ground?
Garages must have a ground wire in the feeder?
Everything meets the UL standards in effect now?

Either you misunderstood the agent or he is as wacked-out as you are.

K&T is code compliant.

Still missing - a reliable source that says K&T is hazardous.

--
bud--

On Sep 24, 11:21�am, bud-- wrote:
bob haller wrote:

they said its not very common here anymore, at least partially because
you cant get homeowners insurance. at home resale time house must be
rewired to current code, or no insurance no sale.

There is no possibility houses have to be rewired to the 2008NEC.
AFCIs on most circuits?
Kid-proof receptacles in most locations?
Receptacles at current spacing requirements?
Ufer earthing electrode required?
Boxes have light fixture or fan rating?
All wiring has a ground?
All grounded receptacles?
Eliminate almost all of the GFCI exceptions?
Replace old stove/dryer circuits that have a neutral but no ground?
Garages must have a ground wire in the feeder?
Everything meets the UL standards in effect now?

Either you misunderstood the agent or he is as wacked-out as you are.

K&T is code compliant.

Still missing - a reliable source that says K&T is hazardous.

--
bud--

if you cant get homeowners insurance then a major upgrade of wiring is
necessary. once its a major upgrade and not just a repair curerent
codes must be met...........

as they must with other safety issues.

On Sep 24, 11:21�am, bud-- wrote:
bob haller wrote:

they said its not very common here anymore, at least partially because
you cant get homeowners insurance. at home resale time house must be
rewired to current code, or no insurance no sale.

There is no possibility houses have to be rewired to the 2008NEC.
AFCIs on most circuits?
Kid-proof receptacles in most locations?
Receptacles at current spacing requirements?
Ufer earthing electrode required?
Boxes have light fixture or fan rating?
All wiring has a ground?
All grounded receptacles?
Eliminate almost all of the GFCI exceptions?
Replace old stove/dryer circuits that have a neutral but no ground?
Garages must have a ground wire in the feeder?
Everything meets the UL standards in effect now?

Either you misunderstood the agent or he is as wacked-out as you are.

K&T is code compliant.

Still missing - a reliable source that says K&T is hazardous.

--
bud--

if you cant get homeowners insurance then a major upgrade of wiring is
necessary. once its a major upgrade and not just a repair curerent
codes must be met...........

as they must with other safety issues.

On Sep 24, 11:21*am, bud-- wrote:
bob haller wrote:

they said its not very common here anymore, at least partially because
you cant get homeowners insurance. at home resale time house must be
rewired to current code, or no insurance no sale.

There is no possibility houses have to be rewired to the 2008NEC.
AFCIs on most circuits?
Kid-proof receptacles in most locations?
Receptacles at current spacing requirements?
Ufer earthing electrode required?
Boxes have light fixture or fan rating?
All wiring has a ground?
All grounded receptacles?
Eliminate almost all of the GFCI exceptions?
Replace old stove/dryer circuits that have a neutral but no ground?
Garages must have a ground wire in the feeder?
Everything meets the UL standards in effect now?

Either you misunderstood the agent or he is as wacked-out as you are.

K&T is code compliant.

Still missing - a reliable source that says K&T is hazardous.

--
bud--

Any wiring that is in poor repair is hazardous and this is usually the
case with K&T.

On Sep 24, 11:21*am, bud-- wrote:
bob haller wrote:

they said its not very common here anymore, at least partially because
you cant get homeowners insurance. at home resale time house must be
rewired to current code, or no insurance no sale.

There is no possibility houses have to be rewired to the 2008NEC.
AFCIs on most circuits?
Kid-proof receptacles in most locations?
Receptacles at current spacing requirements?
Ufer earthing electrode required?
Boxes have light fixture or fan rating?
All wiring has a ground?
All grounded receptacles?
Eliminate almost all of the GFCI exceptions?
Replace old stove/dryer circuits that have a neutral but no ground?
Garages must have a ground wire in the feeder?
Everything meets the UL standards in effect now?

Either you misunderstood the agent or he is as wacked-out as you are.

K&T is code compliant.

Still missing - a reliable source that says K&T is hazardous.

--
bud--

Any wiring that is in poor repair is hazardous and this is usually the
case with K&T.

bob haller wrote:
On Sep 24, 11:21�am, bud-- wrote:
bob haller wrote:

they said its not very common here anymore, at least partially because
you cant get homeowners insurance. at home resale time house must be
rewired to current code, or no insurance no sale.
There is no possibility houses have to be rewired to the 2008NEC.
AFCIs on most circuits?
Kid-proof receptacles in most locations?
Receptacles at current spacing requirements?
Ufer earthing electrode required?
Boxes have light fixture or fan rating?
All wiring has a ground?
All grounded receptacles?
Eliminate almost all of the GFCI exceptions?
Replace old stove/dryer circuits that have a neutral but no ground?
Garages must have a ground wire in the feeder?
Everything meets the UL standards in effect now?

Either you misunderstood the agent or he is as wacked-out as you are.

K&T is code compliant.

Still missing - a reliable source that says K&T is hazardous.

--
bud--

if you cant get homeowners insurance then a major upgrade of wiring is
necessary. once its a major upgrade and not just a repair curerent
codes must be met...........

The idea that you cant get insurance unless the house meets "current
code" is more wacko than your comments on K&T. What insurance company
requires all the features above?

As I have said several times, Minnesota required State Farm (probably)
to drop a surcharge for older services. Insurance companies, at least in
some states, are not allowed to do whatever they want.

If wiring is upgraded, only the parts of the system that are modified
must meet "current code", just like a "repair".

Existing K&T can be picked up in a rewire - it is allowed by the code.
The NEC does not require replacement of K&T. So in your "major upgrade"
K&T can remain.

as they must with other safety issues.

Still missing - a reliable source that says K&T is hazardous.

--
bud--

JIMMIE wrote:
On Sep 24, 11:21 am, bud-- wrote:
bob haller wrote:

they said its not very common here anymore, at least partially because
you cant get homeowners insurance. at home resale time house must be
rewired to current code, or no insurance no sale.
There is no possibility houses have to be rewired to the 2008NEC.
AFCIs on most circuits?
Kid-proof receptacles in most locations?
Receptacles at current spacing requirements?
Ufer earthing electrode required?
Boxes have light fixture or fan rating?
All wiring has a ground?
All grounded receptacles?
Eliminate almost all of the GFCI exceptions?
Replace old stove/dryer circuits that have a neutral but no ground?
Garages must have a ground wire in the feeder?
Everything meets the UL standards in effect now?

Either you misunderstood the agent or he is as wacked-out as you are.

K&T is code compliant.

Still missing - a reliable source that says K&T is hazardous.

--
bud--

Any wiring that is in poor repair is hazardous and this is usually the
case with K&T.

In many years of doing trouble calls I have not seen that. It certainly
was not "usually the case".

The 2 sources in this thread, from state agencies, do not indicate a
particular problem with K&T.

Where is a reliable source that says K&T is hazardous.

--
bud--

What is Knob and Tube Wiring
March 8, 2008 · Filed Under Home Inspections and Home Maintenance
I’ve recently witnessed knob and tube wiring in some downtown St.
John’s homes. It’s not a common sight, but when things are uncommon
and unknown a lot of questions arise.

So, just what is knob and tube wiring?

Knob and tube wiring is found in older homes dating back to the
1940’s. It was the electrical wiring choice at the time due to being
inexpensive and practical. Knob and tube is a two wire system
consisting of a ‘hot’ and a ‘neutral’ wire – no ground wire. When the
wiring was run through floor joists it was placed in a ceramic tube to
prevent the wires from chafing.

If you happen to notice knob and tube in a home you are purchasing
(hopefully you have a Home Inspector) asks lots of questions.

In the “older days”, this method was quite adequate for the electrical
loads being produced in a house hold. However as computers, plasma
TV’s and microwaves became the new way of life, the increase is
amperage (electrical current) to run these devices posed a problem for
knob and tube wiring. It became subject to repeatedly blowing 15mp amp
fuses. Quick fixes allowed homeowners to over-fuse circuits (changing
the 15amp fuse to a 20 or 30amp fuse) which in turn caused heat damage
to the wiring due to higher levels of current.

Some insurance companies in St. John’s will still insure knob and tube
wiring but they require an electrician to inspect the house to make
sure that there are no circuits over-fused. Of course there are some
insurance companies in St. John’s that refuse to insure knob and tube
wiring. No insurance = no mortgage.

Tags: downtown St. John's, electrical, home inspector, homeowner, knob
and tube

Connections to concealed knob-and-tube wiring. In cases where the
existing wiring is concealed knob-and-tube, the NEC does allow it to
be extended from an existing application. But that is seldom practical
because the hardware is no longer readily available, and the existing
knobs salvaged from old jobs have internal spacings for old Type R
conductor insulation that will not work on today’s thinner insulated
conductors. Concealed knob-and-tube, as a wiring method, has no
equipment grounding conductor carried with it. Over the generations,
NEC provisions have changed to the point that it is almost impossible
legally to wire anything without grounding it. For example, until the
1984 NEC, what is now 314.4 only required the grounding of metal boxes
used with concealed knob-and-tube wiring if in contact with metal lath
or metallic surfaces. Now all metal boxes must be grounded without
exception.

Meanwhile, grounding has been getting more difficult to arrange to
remote extensions of concealed knob-and-tube outlets. Until the 1993
NEC, you could go to a local bonded water pipe to pick up an equipment
grounding connection, and then extend from there with modern wiring
methods. Now 250.130(C), which governs this work, requires that the
equipment grounding connection be made on the equipment grounding
terminal bar of the supply panelboard, or directly to the grounding
electrode system or grounding electrode conductor. You will not be
inspecting grounding connections associated with concealed knob-and-
tube wiring in a steel-frame building. Rather you will see this in old
wood-frame buildings, probably residential. In such occupancies, even
if the water supply lateral is metallic, the water piping system
ceases to be considered as an electrode beyond 5 feet from the point
of entry. This usually means fishing into the basement. If the
contractor can fish a ground wire down to this point, he or she can
fish a modern circuit up in the reverse direction and avoid the entire
problem.

It is true that some geographical areas have more extensive use of
slab-on-grade construction, and here interior water piping is
sometimes permitted to qualify as electrodes because the pipes extend
to grade for the minimum threshold distance of 10 feet, and thereby
allow interior connections. But in almost every case, extensions of
concealed knob-and-tube wiring do not do well upon close inspection.

In addition to the grounding issue, beginning with the 1987 NEC this
wiring method cannot be used in wall or ceiling cavities that have
“loose, filled, or foamed-in-place insulating material that envelops
the conductors.” This effectively means that such cavities cannot be
insulated, because the only method of compliance involves opening all
the walls to install board insulation products, and no contractor is
going to keep this wiring method with the walls open. This rule is
particularly controversial because, to the extent enforced in existing
construction, it is a powerful economic disincentive for owners to
retrofit thermal insulation.3


bud I copied and pasted because obviously you are too lazy to click on
links, while you spout dis information it just adds to readers
confusion.

this is just a few of the references. who wants a obsolete system that
shouldnt be insulated?

few homebuyers will be interested in buying such a home.

rewiring isnt that expensive, when you consider how it increases your
homes value.

besides if a homebuyer cant get homeowners insurance its a no
sale...... for nearly every buyer out there.

so the seller must rewire, at that point the rewire must meet all
current safety codes...............

bud you want a 100 more? or a 1000?

just to discredit you i nwill be happy to keep on posting.

Bud now knows I am correct The K&T issues are well documented,
everything from insulation being a bad idea, to insurance troubles.
besides lack of grounds and being obsolete.

Bud glad i was able to help educate you

bob haller wrote:
how many links do you want posted?

heres one, i can flood the board if you like.

sadly bud is living in dreamland, where stuff thats 100 years old is
just fine

My "dreamland" is based on years of experience as an electrician. Much
of it was doing service calls where I saw numerous K&T installations.

I believe Roy, another electrician, has also written K&T that has not
been abused is not a problem.

halerb had a nightmare where he was attacked by knobs and was forced to
hide in tubes.


To look at claims of K&T hazards:

Oversized fuses allow much more current to flow than originally
intended, resulting in additional heat in the conductors. This heat
causes the insulation protecting the wire to become brittle, and
eventually to disintegrate.

Over fusing is a problem for any wiring method. One could argue that K&T
is more immune in that wires are not in contact with each other until
they reach a box.

Heat directly above ceiling lights and in un-vented attics can also
degrade the wire insulation.

I have seen no evidence of problems in attic wiring. I have salvaged
wire out of attics that was in like-new shape.

Heat at ceiling lights can certainly rot out insulation. It rots out
*all* insulation including plastic. I have seen rubber insulation on BX
and plastic insulation on Romex crack off when the wires were moved.
Light fixtures now have ratings for the temperature rating of the supply
wiring. And Romex now has a higher temperature rating. What about the
old 2 wire Romex? If anything K&T is safer because the wires are not in
contact until they reach the box. It is not easy to fix BX where there
are bare wires back to the connector.

Some types of insulation used on knob and
tube wiring seem to be a delicacy for the critters that find their way
into old homes. They can make short work of the insulation covering
the wires.

"Critters" can be a problem for Romex.

None of these problems are unique K&T hazards.

Faced with drafty houses and high heating bills, homeowners often add
thermal insulation to their attics and walls. Insulation on top of
knob and tube wiring is a major fire hazard.

As posted previously
http://www.waptac.org/sp.asp?id=7190
is a report to the Illinois Department of Commerce and Community Affairs
on adding building insulation around existing K&T wiring. The report
looked at available information on hazards of insulation around K&T. The
report found no record of hazard was found in the large number of K&T
installations that had insulation added around them. Larry Seekon, whose
comments are quoted, was head electrical inspector in Minneapolis.

There is no reason to believe "insulation on top of knob and tube wiring
is a major fire hazard". This is home inspector FUD. Where is the
supporting data.

--
bud--

bob haller wrote:

In the “older days”, this method was quite adequate for the electrical
loads being produced in a house hold. However as computers, plasma
TV’s and microwaves became the new way of life, the increase is
amperage (electrical current) to run these devices posed a problem for
knob and tube wiring. It became subject to repeatedly blowing 15mp amp
fuses. Quick fixes allowed homeowners to over-fuse circuits (changing
the 15amp fuse to a 20 or 30amp fuse) which in turn caused heat damage
to the wiring due to higher levels of current.

The only K&T hazard in the post - as already stated, over fusing can be
a problem for any wiring system. This is not a specific K&T hazard.

--
bud--

bob haller wrote:

beginning with the 1987 NEC this
wiring method cannot be used in wall or ceiling cavities that have
“loose, filled, or foamed-in-place insulating material that envelops
the conductors.” This effectively means that such cavities cannot be
insulated, because the only method of compliance involves opening all
the walls to install board insulation products, and no contractor is
going to keep this wiring method with the walls open. This rule is
particularly controversial because, to the extent enforced in existing
construction, it is a powerful economic disincentive for owners to
retrofit thermal insulation.3

Again looking at
http://www.waptac.org/sp.asp?id=7190
a report to the Illinois Department of Commerce and Community Affairs -
looking at the record of the code change, it was not based on data
substantiating a actual problems. The report found that many
jurisdictions have modifications to the code prohibition of insulating
where K&T is present.

As I have already pointed out, there is no *data* to support the claim
that the insulation causes a hazard. The chief electrical inspector for
Minneapolis has said insulation was not a problem.

bud I copied and pasted because obviously you are too lazy to click on
links,

Too lazy - I am devastated. (Have you read my sources?)

while you spout dis information it just adds to readers
confusion.

My "dis information" came from state agencies and electrical inspectors.

Two of your sources were apparently home inspectors. Two of your
sources were completely unidentified.

I want to see a knowledgeable electrical industry source, not home
inspector FUD.

rewiring isnt that expensive, when you consider how it increases your
homes value.

In the real world, rewiring to completely eliminate K&T is enormously
expensive.

besides if a homebuyer cant get homeowners insurance its a no
sale...... for nearly every buyer out there.

Where is the insurance casualty *data* that justifies insurance denial.
Still missing.

Just as it was missing when challenged in Maine and the insurance
company "provided no justification for its position that knob and tube
wiring per se automatically provides grounds for nonrenewal".

so the seller must rewire, at that point the rewire must meet all
current safety codes...............

You appear to have no concept of what the NEC requires. A "rewire" only
affects the wiring that is changed. A "rewire" does not require all
wiring in a house conform to the current NEC. You are really a fount of
misinformation.

As I have said, you can "rewire" and leave the existing K&T.

bud you want a 100 more? or a 1000?

just to discredit you i nwill be happy to keep on posting.

Of course, just like a Jehovah's Witness.

Still missing - *data* that supports your claim. Your buddies at State
Farm can't help you?

--
bud--

Still missing - *data* that supports your claim. Your buddies at State
Farm can't help you?

--
bud--

Bud ignores the NEC, which prohibits insulation contacting K&T

jeez i wouldnt want to live in a home you worked on.........

you must believe the NEC is advisory only?

you must be smarter than the entire NEC, which must look at all these
issues carefully

affects the wiring that is changed. A "rewire" does not require all
wiring in a house conform to the current NEC. You are really a fount of
� misinformation.

As I have said, you can "rewire" and leave the existing K&T.


it does if homeowners insurance REQUIRES its removal and once the
homeowner faces that it requires things like GFCIs

the NEC must be a nuisance to you, soft shoe shuffling past safety
cdes and requirements

bob haller wrote:
Bud now knows I am correct The K&T issues are well documented,
everything from insulation being a bad idea, to insurance troubles.
besides lack of grounds and being obsolete.

Bud glad i was able to help educate you


You haven't proved or educated anyone you pin headed *******. No links,
no official docs, just a bunch of made up text that had no conclusive
results.

s

bob haller wrote:
Still missing - *data* that supports your claim. Your buddies at State
Farm can't help you?

--
bud--

Bud ignores the NEC, which prohibits insulation contacting K&T

jeez i wouldnt want to live in a home you worked on.........

you must believe the NEC is advisory only?

you must be smarter than the entire NEC, which must look at all these
issues carefully


The NEC does not regulate the insulation of houses. AND the K&T wiring
is not new enough to be involved in a current inspection process. I've
covered miles of it with insulation in multiple rentals. Proper fusing
of the circuits is the key. No overamperage= No heat. You should just
go hang yourself with some single strand wire you pin headed *******.

bob haller wrote:
affects the wiring that is changed. A "rewire" does not require all
wiring in a house conform to the current NEC. You are really a fount of
� misinformation.

As I have said, you can "rewire" and leave the existing K&T.


it does if homeowners insurance REQUIRES its removal and once the
homeowner faces that it requires things like GFCIs

the NEC must be a nuisance to you, soft shoe shuffling past safety
cdes and requirements

The insurance DOES NOT require the removal of it. And you have not
provided any documentation to the effect that it does.

s

The insurance DOES NOT require the removal of it. �And you have not
provided any documentation to the effect that it does.



many insurance companies REFUSE to write NEW policies on homes with
K&T wiring.

OK its time i flood this discussion with info

In 1987, the National Electric Code prohibited the placement of
insulation in contact with this type wiring. Later, a couple of west
coast states permitted insulation provided the wiring was "certified"
by a licensed electrician, foil or paper backed batt insulation was
not used and warning signs were placed where the old wiring is
concealed by the insulation.

The NEC does not regulate the insulation of houses. �AND the K&T wiring
is not new enough to be involved in a current inspection process. �I've
covered miles of it with insulation in multiple rentals. �Proper fusing
of the circuits is the key. �No overamperage= No heat. �You should just
go hang yourself with some single strand wire you pin headed *******.-

Currently the United States NEC forbids use of loose, blown-in, or
expanding foam insulation over K&T wiring.[5] This is because K&T is
designed to let heat dissipate to the surrounding air. As a result,
energy efficiency upgrades that involve insulating previously
uninsulated walls usually also require replacement of the wiring in
affected homes.

you must be buds realtive or something your rentals are at some risk
from fire.......

you need to check current codes, but heres the wikipedia reference

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knob_and_tube_wiring

As existing K&T wiring gets ever older, insurance companies may deny
coverage due to increased risk. Several companies will not write new
homeowners policies at all unless all K&T wiring is replaced or unless
an electrician has certified that the wiring is in good condition.

bob haller wrote:
The insurance DOES NOT require the removal of it. �And you have not
provided any documentation to the effect that it does.



many insurance companies REFUSE to write NEW policies on homes with
K&T wiring.

OK its time i flood this discussion with info


make sure it's reliable info with links.

bob haller wrote:
The NEC does not regulate the insulation of houses. �AND the K&T wiring
is not new enough to be involved in a current inspection process. �I've
covered miles of it with insulation in multiple rentals. �Proper fusing
of the circuits is the key. �No overamperage= No heat. �You should just
go hang yourself with some single strand wire you pin headed *******.-

Currently the United States NEC forbids use of loose, blown-in, or
expanding foam insulation over K&T wiring.[5] This is because K&T is
designed to let heat dissipate to the surrounding air. As a result,
energy efficiency upgrades that involve insulating previously
uninsulated walls usually also require replacement of the wiring in
affected homes.

you must be buds realtive or something your rentals are at some risk
from fire.......

you need to check current codes, but heres the wikipedia reference

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knob_and_tube_wiring

As existing K&T wiring gets ever older, insurance companies may deny
coverage due to increased risk. Several companies will not write new
homeowners policies at all unless all K&T wiring is replaced or unless
an electrician has certified that the wiring is in good condition.


I'm not worried about your so called "codes" and i'm CERTAINLY not
reading ANYthing from MF wikipedia.

On Sep 27, 3:21*pm, bob haller wrote:
The insurance DOES NOT require the removal of it. And you have not
provided any documentation to the effect that it does.

*many insurance companies REFUSE to write NEW policies on homes with
K&T wiring.

OK its time i flood this discussion with info

The only thing I have ever found wrong with K&T is that it is getting
close to 100 years old . Not just the wiring but the insulators and
the framing they are attached too and the fasteners they are attached
with. Almost all problems I have seen with it are due to age. A lot of
things happen in years. Wood shrinks, nails rust, insulators crack,
all it takes is time for something to go wrong. If the argument is
that there is still plenty of K&T that looks like the day it was
installed I would agree but I would have to ask, "for how much
longer".

The only code I know of that specifically addresses K&T is a local
code that forbids the repair and modification of K&T wiring.This
pretty much means if it breaks or you touch it rip it out. I first
became aware of this when helping my then fiance to restore her
Victorian farmhouse around 1982. Switch wiring mounted externally on
a wall which we had taken down while making repairs to the wall could
not be replaced. We were able to get around this by letting the K&T
become a low voltage control circuit for her lights. Under this code
the updating the breaker panel forced the removal of all of the K&T
with the exception of the part we used for low voltage.

Jimmie

NEC 394.12 2002 specifially prohibits insulating K&T in wall cavaties

geez its near a 100 years old, everything needs replaced eventually.

shingle roofs 25 years

On Sun, 27 Sep 2009 12:09:59 -0500, bud--
wrote:

bob haller wrote:

beginning with the 1987 NEC this
wiring method cannot be used in wall or ceiling cavities that have
€œloose, filled, or foamed-in-place insulating material that envelops
the conductors.€� This effectively means that such cavities cannot be
insulated, because the only method of compliance involves opening all
the walls to install board insulation products, and no contractor is
going to keep this wiring method with the walls open. This rule is
particularly controversial because, to the extent enforced in existing
construction, it is a powerful economic disincentive for owners to
retrofit thermal insulation.3

Again looking at
http://www.waptac.org/sp.asp?id=7190
a report to the Illinois Department of Commerce and Community Affairs -
looking at the record of the code change, it was not based on data
substantiating a actual problems. The report found that many
jurisdictions have modifications to the code prohibition of insulating
where K&T is present.

As I have already pointed out, there is no *data* to support the claim
that the insulation causes a hazard. The chief electrical inspector for
Minneapolis has said insulation was not a problem.

bud I copied and pasted because obviously you are too lazy to click on
links,

Too lazy - I am devastated. (Have you read my sources?)

while you spout dis information it just adds to readers
confusion.

My "dis information" came from state agencies and electrical inspectors.

Two of your sources were apparently home inspectors. Two of your
sources were completely unidentified.

I'm likely going to raise the ire of some home inspectors on this
group, but I've found them, on the whole, to be a pretty clueless
bunch.Many "minor issues" identified are actually pretty expensive
and serious shortcomings, while many "serious issues" are simple
maintenance items that can be easily remedied at low cost. And many
quite major issues are totally missed.

I want to see a knowledgeable electrical industry source, not home
inspector FUD.

rewiring isnt that expensive, when you consider how it increases your
homes value.

In the real world, rewiring to completely eliminate K&T is enormously
expensive.

Actually, in many cases , done as part of a redecoration job to get a
house ready to sell (improve curb appeal, make it "show well", the
cost to totally rewire to current code is SURPRISINGLY affordable.
Particularly if the house has both an accessible attic and a full
basement. It's incredible how little plaster/drywall really needs atro
be damaged/opened up to rewire an older home. The only thing not "to
code" would be the spacing of "handy-straps" holding the cable to the
studs. The extra wire needed to do it the "simple" way is much less
expensive than the extra labour etc to do it the "hard" way.

besides if a homebuyer cant get homeowners insurance its a no
sale...... for nearly every buyer out there.

Where is the insurance casualty *data* that justifies insurance denial.
Still missing.


Yup - but the FACT is, you still cannot buy NEW insurance on a home
with K&T wiring in the vast majority of both the USA and Canada.

Renewals are still (generally) available - but no "new business"
Just as it was missing when challenged in Maine and the insurance
company "provided no justification for its position that knob and tube
wiring per se automatically provides grounds for nonrenewal".

so the seller must rewire, at that point the rewire must meet all
current safety codes...............

You appear to have no concept of what the NEC requires. A "rewire" only
affects the wiring that is changed. A "rewire" does not require all
wiring in a house conform to the current NEC. You are really a fount of
misinformation.

As I have said, you can "rewire" and leave the existing K&T.

In many cases you can leave K&T by code, but in those same cases you
may STILL not be able to write new insurance policies on the home.

A friend's son bought a home less than 10 years ago that was
advertized as fully rewired and re-plumbed.

When he went to sell 2 months ago, a home inspector found there was
still K&T in use throughout most of the main part of the house, as
well as a lot of galvanized water pipe and the cast iron sewer stack
(which was rusted through and leaking in several spots)

When that was discovered, it had to be told to all prospective buyers
- which severely limited the market, and the price he could expect to
get for the house.

After getting some estimates they dropped the price something like
$30,000 and it was snapped up almost immediately - the buyer knowing
the wiring and plumbing could be brought up to current code, with all
iron pipe and K&T wiring replaced, and redecorated for that amount,
with money left over. (House listed for $285,000)

bud you want a 100 more? or a 1000?

just to discredit you i nwill be happy to keep on posting.

Of course, just like a Jehovah's Witness.

Still missing - *data* that supports your claim. Your buddies at State
Farm can't help you?

bob haller wrote:
Still missing - *data* that supports your claim. Your buddies at State
Farm can't help you?

--
bud--

Bud ignores the NEC, which prohibits insulation contacting K&T

"Obviously you are too lazy to click on links." Insulating K&T is the
subject of the link to the Illinois Dept of Commerce. But you could just
read what I posted that came from that link: "No record of hazard was
found in the large number of K&T installations that had insulation added
around them."

If you knew anything about the NEC you would know it has no intrinsic
authority and is in effect only as it is adopted by enforcement
jurisdictions.

If you read the Illinois report you would know that many jurisdictions,
including 5 entire states, have modified the NEC prohibition on insulation.

jeez i wouldnt want to live in a home you worked on.........

you must believe the NEC is advisory only?

Lacking competent sources you attack others. Your level of stupidity is
amazing.

you must be smarter than the entire NEC, which must look at all these
issues carefully

Your understanding of the NEC is minimal.

As you consistently ignore, the NEC does not require removal of K&T. A
"rewire" can just refeed K&T.

If you read the Illinois report on insulation around K&T you would know
that "looking at the record of the code change, it was not based on data
substantiating a actual problems."

But why would you want to read - you would just get confused. Zealots
don't like conflicting information.

Still missing - *data* that supports your claim that K&T is
intrinsically hazardous. Or *authoritative* sources.

Still missing - data that indicates significant hazard from insulation
around K&T.

--
bud--

Still missing - data that indicates significant hazard from insulation
around K&T.

--
bud--

so the NEC prohibition means NOTHING?

heres a interesting link including info on 3 homefires caused by
encapsulating K&T with insulation.

http://www.pct.edu/wtc/docs/articles...Report_WTC.pdf

so bud what do you think of the photos of hacked K&T wiring?

wrote:

Yup - but the FACT is, you still cannot buy NEW insurance on a home
with K&T wiring in the vast majority of both the USA and Canada.

Bull****. That's just not true in the US. Don't know about the french.

bob haller wrote:
Still missing - data that indicates significant hazard from insulation
around K&T.

--
bud--

so the NEC prohibition means NOTHING?


No, they don't regulate insulation practices.

bob haller wrote:
heres a interesting link including info on 3 homefires caused by
encapsulating K&T with insulation.

http://www.pct.edu/wtc/docs/articles...Report_WTC.pdf

so bud what do you think of the photos of hacked K&T wiring?

That page will not load. Probably being caught by the bull**** filter.