On Jul 7, 8:08 pm, "HeyBub" wrote:
Smitty Two wrote:

Sorry, 12:00 p.m. *is* noon.

Only if you define twelve hours after the sun is at its highest point to be
noon.

Because more than 1 person is disputing whether 12:00 PM is noon, I
decided to do some looking.

TvGuide.com uses it.
So does DHL, a major delivery compay. They have a service called ""DHL
Next Day 12:00pm"
Fedex uses it too (search Google: "12:00 pm" site:fedex.com )
Then there's the loads of radio and TV stations that use it
(schedules).
Here's one: The TV series "24" - where each episode covers one hour.
http://www.aetv.com/24/24_episode_gu...episode=111985

Better idea. Who on Google uses "12:00 PM noon" as opposed to "12:00
AM noon?" -The searches below also match with "p.m." and "(noon)",
the search is for a string, not words anywhere in a document.
"12:00 PM noon" matches "about 195,000" documents on Google
"12:00PM noon" matches "about 32,700"
"12:00 AM noon" matches about 436
"12:00AM noon" matches about 49
So:
Total documents using "12:00pm noon" or "12:00 pm noon" = 227,700 /
228,185 = 99.8%
Total documents using "12:00am noon" or "12:00 am noon" = 485 /
228,185 = 0.2%

So (roughly) 2 people in 1000 think that 12:00am means noon. (The
margin of error with this is not significant enough to matter.)

That should settle this, but of course it won't...

Ever watch a digital watch change from 11:59:59 AM to 12:00:00 PM?

Or how about this - what is 3-2? Of course it is 1. What I mean is
that at 12:00:00PM half the day has already, at that instant, passed,
and it is now the beginning of the second half of the day.

I could care less what some guy says on some government website. If we
lived in a universe where time could move backwards, then that
discussion
would make more sense.

On Jul 7, 4:52 pm, mm wrote:
On Sat, 07 Jul 2007 14:57:04 -0500, Logan Shaw



wrote:
wrote:
On Jul 7, 7:29 am, "HeyBub" wrote:

Hmm. 12:00PM implies twelve hours past midday (p.m. = "post meridian" = past
midday). That would be midnight. From there to 7:46PM means the ac has been
on for almost twenty hours.

Of course one could also say 12:00AM (a.m. = "ante meridian" = before
midday) which would also be midnight.

Sorry, 12:00PM is noon. Have a High School diploma?? Is English your
native language??

I have a high school (and college) diploma. Yet, I don't think everything
I heard in high school (or college) is automatically true. In particular,
2000 wasn't the first year of the new millenium, and 12:00 PM is not noon.

Here's an explanation of why:

http://tf.nist.gov/timefreq/general/...m#Anchor-57026

This is so on-point, I think it deserves to be quoted. Also, I don't
think there can be copyright issues with government websites info, all
of which should be in the public domain"

Are noon and midnight 12 a.m. or 12 p.m.?

This is a tricky question. The answer is that the terms 12 a.m.
and 12 p.m. are wrong and should not be used.

To illustrate this, consider that "a.m" and "p.m." are
abbreviations for "ante meridiem" and "post meridiem." They mean
"before noon" and "after noon," respectively. Noon is neither before
or after noon; it is simply noon. Therefore, neither the "a.m." nor
"p.m." designation is correct. On the other hand, midnight is both 12
hours before noon and 12 hours after noon. Therefore, either 12 a.m.
or 12 p.m. could work as a designation for midnight, but both would be
ambiguous as to the date intended.

When a specific date is important, and when we can use a 24-hour
clock, we prefer to designate that moment not as 1200 midnight, but
rather as 0000 if we are referring to the beginning of a given day (or
date), or 2400 if we are designating the end of a given day (or date).

To be certain of avoiding ambiguity (while still using a 12-hour
clock), specify an event as beginning at 1201 a.m. or ending at 1159
p.m., for example; this method is used by the railroads and airlines
for schedules, and is often found on legal papers such as contracts
and insurance policies.

=== I've heard this before.

If one is referring not to a specific date, but rather to
several days, or days in general, use the terms noon and midnight
instead of 12 a.m. and 12 p.m. For example, a bank might be open on
Saturdays from 8 a.m. to noon. Or a grocery store might be open daily
until midnight. The terms "12 noon" and "12 midnight" are also
correct, though redundant.

==== On July 3, I was a at a supermarket that had a temporary sign,
and someone had written "Open July 4, 7AM to 12AM, and then it had a
dark P written over the second A.

Note that this comes from NIST, the National Institute of Standards
and Technology, which is the US federal government agency responsible
for standardizing measurements.

I liked it better when it was the National Bureau of Standards. They
keep changing names and confusing me. (I'm just going to call the INS
"la Migra" so I don't have to worry when it changes names.)

These are the people who operate
NIST-F1, the atomic clock which is the primary reference for timekeeping
in the United States, and one of the primary references worldwide.

I'll tell you how I remmeber this, and how I think it arose. The
moment of noon is neither before noon or after noon, but the
59.999999999...... seconds after that are after noon, and yet still
part of the minute that is 12:00. (and part of the second that is
12:00:00.) So even though all but the tiniest bit of the minute is not
noon, most of 12:00 noon is PM.

- Logan

I posted a detailed reply to the 12:00 thing elsewhere is this thread.

On Jul 7, 4:37 pm, "Noon-Air" wrote:
"Logan Shaw" wrote in message

...



wrote:
On Jul 7, 7:29 am, "HeyBub" wrote:

Hmm. 12:00PM implies twelve hours past midday (p.m. = "post meridian" =
past
midday). That would be midnight. From there to 7:46PM means the ac has
been
on for almost twenty hours.

Of course one could also say 12:00AM (a.m. = "ante meridian" = before
midday) which would also be midnight.

Sorry, 12:00PM is noon. Have a High School diploma?? Is English your
native language??

I have a high school (and college) diploma. Yet, I don't think everything
I heard in high school (or college) is automatically true. In particular,
2000 wasn't the first year of the new millenium, and 12:00 PM is not noon.

Here's an explanation of why:

http://tf.nist.gov/timefreq/general/...m#Anchor-57026

Note that this comes from NIST, the National Institute of Standards
and Technology, which is the US federal government agency responsible
for standardizing measurements. These are the people who operate
NIST-F1, the atomic clock which is the primary reference for timekeeping
in the United States, and one of the primary references worldwide.

Old news.... who really gives a rats ass anyway. It has absolutely nothing
to do with the price of tea in China.

I posted a detailed reply to the 12:00 thing elsewhere is this thread.

On Jul 7, 3:57 pm, Logan Shaw wrote:
wrote:
On Jul 7, 7:29 am, "HeyBub" wrote:
Hmm. 12:00PM implies twelve hours past midday (p.m. = "post meridian" = past
midday). That would be midnight. From there to 7:46PM means the ac has been
on for almost twenty hours.

Of course one could also say 12:00AM (a.m. = "ante meridian" = before
midday) which would also be midnight.
Sorry, 12:00PM is noon. Have a High School diploma?? Is English your
native language??

I have a high school (and college) diploma. Yet, I don't think everything
I heard in high school (or college) is automatically true. In particular,
2000 wasn't the first year of the new millenium, and 12:00 PM is not noon.

Here's an explanation of why:

http://tf.nist.gov/timefreq/general/...m#Anchor-57026

Note that this comes from NIST, the National Institute of Standards
and Technology, which is the US federal government agency responsible
for standardizing measurements. These are the people who operate
NIST-F1, the atomic clock which is the primary reference for timekeeping
in the United States, and one of the primary references worldwide.

- Logan

I posted a detailed reply to the 12:00 thing elsewhere is this thread.

On Jul 7, 4:20 pm, krw wrote:
In article , lshaw-
says...



wrote:
On Jul 7, 7:29 am, "HeyBub" wrote:

Hmm. 12:00PM implies twelve hours past midday (p.m. = "post meridian" = past
midday). That would be midnight. From there to 7:46PM means the ac has been
on for almost twenty hours.

Of course one could also say 12:00AM (a.m. = "ante meridian" = before
midday) which would also be midnight.

Sorry, 12:00PM is noon. Have a High School diploma?? Is English your
native language??

I have a high school (and college) diploma. Yet, I don't think everything
I heard in high school (or college) is automatically true. In particular,
2000 wasn't the first year of the new millenium, and 12:00 PM is not noon.

Well, we can't all be 100% correct. You're batting .500, which isn't
bad in some shapes.

Here's an explanation of why:

http://tf.nist.gov/timefreq/general/...m#Anchor-57026

Sillyness.

Note that this comes from NIST, the National Institute of Standards
and Technology, which is the US federal government agency responsible

^^ ^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^
1. What part of government is "responsible" for anything?
2. You _are_ talking about the US federal government.
3. Oxymoronic.

for standardizing measurements. These are the people who operate
NIST-F1, the atomic clock which is the primary reference for timekeeping
in the United States, and one of the primary references worldwide.

4. Pedantic.

--
Keith

--
Keith


I posted a detailed reply to the 12:00 thing elsewhere is this thread.

On Jul 7, 7:29 am, "HeyBub" wrote:
wrote:

It's been running non-stop since 12:00 PM, it's 7:46PM, and the temp
is still 83 deg, thermostat still at 80 deg. I would not have said
"hours" if it wasn't...

Hmm. 12:00PM implies twelve hours past midday (p.m. = "post meridian" = past
midday). That would be midnight. From there to 7:46PM means the ac has been
on for almost twenty hours.

Of course one could also say 12:00AM (a.m. = "ante meridian" = before
midday) which would also be midnight.

I posted a detailed reply to the 12:00 thing elsewhere is this thread.

wrote in message
ups.com...
On Jul 7, 8:08 pm, "HeyBub" wrote:
Smitty Two wrote:

Sorry, 12:00 p.m. *is* noon.

Only if you define twelve hours after the sun is at its highest point to
be
noon.

Because more than 1 person is disputing whether 12:00 PM is noon, I
decided to do some looking.

TvGuide.com uses it.
So does DHL, a major delivery compay. They have a service called ""DHL
Next Day 12:00pm"
Fedex uses it too (search Google: "12:00 pm" site:fedex.com )
Then there's the loads of radio and TV stations that use it
(schedules).
Here's one: The TV series "24" - where each episode covers one hour.
http://www.aetv.com/24/24_episode_gu...episode=111985

Better idea. Who on Google uses "12:00 PM noon" as opposed to "12:00
AM noon?" -The searches below also match with "p.m." and "(noon)",
the search is for a string, not words anywhere in a document.
"12:00 PM noon" matches "about 195,000" documents on Google
"12:00PM noon" matches "about 32,700"
"12:00 AM noon" matches about 436
"12:00AM noon" matches about 49
So:
Total documents using "12:00pm noon" or "12:00 pm noon" = 227,700 /
228,185 = 99.8%
Total documents using "12:00am noon" or "12:00 am noon" = 485 /
228,185 = 0.2%

So (roughly) 2 people in 1000 think that 12:00am means noon. (The
margin of error with this is not significant enough to matter.)

That should settle this, but of course it won't...

Ever watch a digital watch change from 11:59:59 AM to 12:00:00 PM?

Or how about this - what is 3-2? Of course it is 1. What I mean is
that at 12:00:00PM half the day has already, at that instant, passed,
and it is now the beginning of the second half of the day.

I could care less what some guy says on some government website. If we
lived in a universe where time could move backwards, then that
discussion
would make more sense.

As I said in another part of this thread, Its not going to effect your base
rate of pay, so who gives a rats ass.

On Sat, 07 Jul 2007 09:28:06 -0000, BobK207
wrote:

On Jul 7, 1:13 am, wrote:
On Jul 7, 3:12 am, mm wrote:



On Fri, 06 Jul 2007 16:47:19 -0700, wrote:
On Jul 6, 7:45 pm, "Don K" wrote:

Running for hours could mean anything more than one hour. There's not
much information there. Let it run overnight. If it can't bring the apartment
down to temperature overnight, then there's something definitely wrong
with it.

Don

It's been running non-stop since 12:00 PM, it's 7:46PM, and the temp
is still 83 deg, thermostat still at 80 deg. I would not have said
"hours" if it wasn't...

You missed his point, that hours can mean 2 or 200. So we don't know
your personality and what you would have said it if, in your opinion,
it wasn't, and even if you would not have said "hours" if it wasn't,
we still didn't know how many hours. You could have said 7 hours and
that would have been clear.

Don't be snotty, especially when you're asking for free advice.

Is there any chance the fan is on ON, and the thermostat is not
accurate? Turn the thermostat down to 70 and see if goes lower than
it is now.

Also check the outside unit and see if it is making noise, and see if
you can tell if the noise is the fan and the compressor, or just the
fan.

You've got to be kidding. Enough "hours" that any human who has ever
used A/C would recognize that there's a problem. Here's what he
said:
"Running for hours could mean anything more than one hour. There's
not much information there. Let it run overnight. If it can't bring
the apartment down to temperature overnight, then there's something
definitely wrong with it."

Gee, do you really think there's something wrong if it can't get down
to 80 deg overnight??? (It would do that with open windows and no A/
C.) I think I was more than polite.

The fan is on "Auto," so as to not recirculate air through vents in a
hot attic when the compressor isn't on.

OP-

Your original post was unclear as to exactly how many "hours" it had
been running 2? 3? 6?

Trying to determine AC performance without thermometer is futile

Oh & for clarity don't use 12:00PM ....use noon or midnight to avoid
confusion

Clearly your AC unit is not working....for a 800 sq ft apt get a
window unit. It's in your interest to reduce the operating costs you
can easily save the cost of the unit in a few months.

cheers
Bob

Dont forget the 13 seer box fan accessory.

On Sat, 07 Jul 2007 09:27:18 -0700, wrote:

On Jul 6, 7:24 pm, wrote:
It's 90 deg. outside, humidity is 37%. The A/C is set to 80 deg. The
temp in the apartment is at 83 deg, and hasn't gone below that. The A/
C has been running non-stop for hours. The temp out of the vents is
colder than the air in the apartment, but not a lot colder. (I don't
have a thermometer.)

Maintenance fixed the A/C only a month ago when it completely quit
working. Our electric bill that month was $320 for a 800 sq ft
apartment.

Maintenance is coming tomorrow. How do I make sure they fix the unit
right, or make the landlord replace it if it won't work properly? The
electric bill is outragous.


Maintenance came today. He hooked an electric probe in two places, and
in two minutes he said "it's fine." He hadn't checked the output
temperature. I asked him to do that. (The A/C was off before he came,
as it wasn't working right, so it's only been running for a couple
minutes.) He went back to his van and got a thermometer (laser,
interesting). The output temperature was 70 deg, and the house was 82
deg. I said it should be 20 deg. "Why do you think it should be 20 deg
different?" he says. I told him that's what I found on the internet.
He checked more wires with his probe for another 5 minutes, then
checked the temperature again. It now said 64 deg (18 deg different).
He said it had to run for a while to get to that temp. (Recall, he
just asked why I thought is should be 20 deg.) I explained the
problem of it not cooling down below 83 deg in 7 hours, and never
having an electric bill like we just had in the year and a half we'd
already been here. He didn't have anything to say, and didn't check
anything else. He never looked at the outside part of the unit. I
asked if he had a contractor HVAC license as he was leaving. He said
yes. I said I'd come down with him and write the number down. When I
got to his van he said I'm not giving you my contractors number, the
landlord has it. I said I need to keep proper records because the
cooling bill is outragous, and the A/C is not cooling the apartment.
He wouldn't give it to me. I said well then I'll write down your plate
number and write the state about it.

(Also, he said the previous problem las month was a broken relay.)

Unfortunately, the law doesn't require him to have a license. I just
found the following on the net:
G.S. 87-21 (c) To Whom Article Applies. - The provisions of this
Article shall apply to all persons, firms, or corporations who engage
in, or attempt to engage in, the business of plumbing, heating, or
fire sprinkler contracting, or any combination thereof as defined in
this Article. The provisions of this Article shall not apply to those
who make minor repairs or minor replacements to an already installed
system of plumbing or heating, but shall apply to those who make
repairs, replacements, or modifications to an already installed fire
sprinkler system.

Break off with a few bucks and buy your own thermometer and check it
yourself. Then go the **** away and take your DIY ho's with you.

On Sat, 7 Jul 2007 13:12:07 -0500, kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:


"Jeff Wisnia" wrote in message
news
Y'know Carie, you can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.

My curious mind wants to know....Are you married or single?


Hell, how about a picture? :-)

Tub girl?

On Jul 7, 2:41 pm, wrote:
On Jul 7, 12:42 pm, BobK207 wrote:



On Jul 7, 9:41 am, wrote:

On Jul 7, 3:13 am, mm wrote:

On Fri, 06 Jul 2007 19:55:23 -0700, wrote:
On Jul 6, 8:05 pm, "Noon-Air" wrote:
wrote in message
...

Hire a *competent*, licensed, bonded, insured, professionally trained HVAC
technician, instead of depending on some flunkie handiman that couldn't make
it doing anything else.

What specifically do I ask him tomorrow? (Types of HVAC

Ask him what the problem is, and how long it will take to fix it.

Since he doesn't work for you, he may not tell you, but if you are
nice, and not the least bit snotty, he may well tell you.

Maybe ask him if it's worth repairing or not, although that is not his
decision and he may be much less willing to speculate. OTOH, if he
knows it's a 50 dollar problem, he may be wiling to speculate. But
you have to be even nicer to get answers to hard questions.
(sometimes even when you yourself are paying).

certifications?) He is being sent by the landlord, which I don't pay
for.

I just posted a description of what maintenance didn't do as a reponse
to my original post.

why are you now posting multiple replies?

new to this whole thing,, huh?

When some people read threads they only check back with the specific
line they were on. I posted a short sentence telling them it's there,
instead of posting the whole thing. Sorry that annoys you...

Wasn't annoyed, just wondered why the change in posting style

On Jul 7, 3:21 pm, Logan Shaw wrote:
mm wrote:
I'll tell you how I remmeber this, and how I think it arose. The
moment of noon is neither before noon or after noon, but the
59.999999999...... seconds after that are after noon, and yet still
part of the minute that is 12:00. (and part of the second that is
12:00:00.) So even though all but the tiniest bit of the minute is not
noon, most of 12:00 noon is PM.

I'll have to admit that makes a lot of sense. The time exactly one
minute after noon is 12:01PM. If noon has to be called either 12:00PM
or 12:00AM, then out of the two, 12:00PM is the much more logical
choice since it would be wacky for 12:00AM to be followed immediately
by 12:01PM.

However, it is still not very good terminology since (a) the literal
meaning of "12:00AM" is nonsensical and (b) there is already a
perfectly good word ("noon") to describe the concept. On the other
other hand, it is convenient for digital clocks to be able to read
"12:00PM" instead of "noon", which is a good argument for defining
12:00PM to be noon. On the other other other hand, there are various
authorities whose opinions should matter, and they don't seem to all
agree on any one thing.

- Logan

mm & Logan-

Of course you two are correct in your analysis of whether noon is
12am or 12 pm

my original point was that 12am or 12pm can be (& is) confusing
depending the understanding writer & the reader

but noon & midnight are unmistakable to all.......

cheers
Bob

On Jul 7, 10:49 pm, BobK207 wrote:
On Jul 7, 3:21 pm, Logan Shaw wrote:



mm wrote:
I'll tell you how I remmeber this, and how I think it arose. The
moment of noon is neither before noon or after noon, but the
59.999999999...... seconds after that are after noon, and yet still
part of the minute that is 12:00. (and part of the second that is
12:00:00.) So even though all but the tiniest bit of the minute is not
noon, most of 12:00 noon is PM.

I'll have to admit that makes a lot of sense. The time exactly one
minute after noon is 12:01PM. If noon has to be called either 12:00PM
or 12:00AM, then out of the two, 12:00PM is the much more logical
choice since it would be wacky for 12:00AM to be followed immediately
by 12:01PM.

However, it is still not very good terminology since (a) the literal
meaning of "12:00AM" is nonsensical and (b) there is already a
perfectly good word ("noon") to describe the concept. On the other
other hand, it is convenient for digital clocks to be able to read
"12:00PM" instead of "noon", which is a good argument for defining
12:00PM to be noon. On the other other other hand, there are various
authorities whose opinions should matter, and they don't seem to all
agree on any one thing.

- Logan

mm & Logan-

Of course you two are correct in your analysis of whether noon is
12am or 12 pm

my original point was that 12am or 12pm can be (& is) confusing
depending the understanding writer & the reader

but noon & midnight are unmistakable to all.......

cheers
Bob


12:00am in used instead of 12:00pm only around 2 times in 1,000.
See my post on that elsewhere in this thread:
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.h...&output=gplain

On Jul 7, 7:58 pm, wrote:
On Jul 7, 10:49 pm, BobK207 wrote:



On Jul 7, 3:21 pm, Logan Shaw wrote:

mm wrote:
I'll tell you how I remmeber this, and how I think it arose. The
moment of noon is neither before noon or after noon, but the
59.999999999...... seconds after that are after noon, and yet still
part of the minute that is 12:00. (and part of the second that is
12:00:00.) So even though all but the tiniest bit of the minute is not
noon, most of 12:00 noon is PM.

I'll have to admit that makes a lot of sense. The time exactly one
minute after noon is 12:01PM. If noon has to be called either 12:00PM
or 12:00AM, then out of the two, 12:00PM is the much more logical
choice since it would be wacky for 12:00AM to be followed immediately
by 12:01PM.

However, it is still not very good terminology since (a) the literal
meaning of "12:00AM" is nonsensical and (b) there is already a
perfectly good word ("noon") to describe the concept. On the other
other hand, it is convenient for digital clocks to be able to read
"12:00PM" instead of "noon", which is a good argument for defining
12:00PM to be noon. On the other other other hand, there are various
authorities whose opinions should matter, and they don't seem to all
agree on any one thing.

- Logan

mm & Logan-

Of course you two are correct in your analysis of whether noon is
12am or 12 pm

my original point was that 12am or 12pm can be (& is) confusing
depending the understanding writer & the reader

but noon & midnight are unmistakable to all.......

cheers
Bob

12:00am in used instead of 12:00pm only around 2 times in 1,000.
See my post on that elsewhere in this thread:http://groups.google.com/group/alt.h...ed86acddde16?d...

I hardly ever see 12pm or 12am......

noon & midnight are MUCH more common & are nearly impossible to
misconstrue because they don't need any explanation

In article ,
"HeyBub" wrote:

Smitty Two wrote:

Sorry, 12:00 p.m. *is* noon.

Only if you define twelve hours after the sun is at its highest point to be
noon.

In this regard, your higher education - hell, your elementary education
- clearly failed you. But you go ahead and be as wrong as you want to be.

"noname" trolling the net for young boys wrote in message
...


Are you 10 or 12?


--

On Jul 7, 5:42 pm, mm wrote:
On Sat, 07 Jul 2007 09:27:18 -0700, wrote:
On Jul 6, 7:24 pm, wrote:
....

He said it had to run for a while to get to that temp. (Recall, he
just asked why I thought is should be 20 deg.)

He asked because curious-type repairmen are always curious when a
customer says something about a repair, right or wrong.

And of course it does have to run for a while to get to that temp. He
may have thought you had had it running.


He wasn't curious, he didn't know what he was doing. He was ready to
leave after 2 minutes, having checked to places with a probe. After I
went in to a longer explaination that I put here about why it should
be 20 deg different, he started looking at the unit (inside) again,
and scratching his head, without actually doing that. He also looked
surprised when I was 18 deg different when he checked it again. - And
he knew the A/C had been off, because I told him, and he turned it on.

On Jul 7, 5:42 pm, mm wrote:
On Sat, 07 Jul 2007 09:27:18 -0700, wrote:
On Jul 6, 7:24 pm, wrote:
....

asked if he had a contractor HVAC license as he was leaving. He said
yes. I said I'd come down with him and write the number down.

For the next time, espeically a more important situation, you have to
have the pencil ready, because if you give someone time to think, they
want to "check with their lawyer". That's why reporters iiuc sometimes
try to surprise the people they interview.

I tried handing him a notebook and pen before I said I'd follow him to
his truck, and he just ignored that, but got very nervous. I then said
I'd go down with him - "You have it in your truck? I'll just go down
with you and write it down." When we got there he said he wouldn't
give it to me. I don't think he has any contractors license at all.
Of course you don't know all those details, because I abreviated down
to just the relevant facts, but I do appreciate the feedback.

On Jul 7, 5:42 pm, mm wrote:
On Sat, 07 Jul 2007 09:27:18 -0700, wrote:
On Jul 6, 7:24 pm, wrote:
....
"Why do you think it should be 20 deg
different?" he says. I told him that's what I found on the internet.
He checked more wires with his probe for another 5 minutes, then
checked the temperature again. It now said 64 deg (18 deg different).

Now the thing is working! Darn. It's much much harder to fix most
things when they are working right. Even things that only work
intermittently. You pretty much have to catch it when it's not
working to be able to fix many things.


I'm not sure what you mean. Are you being sarcastic? He didn't adjust
anything, he was just using something that looked like a voltmeter
(and scratching his head, without actually doing that). Telling him
the A/C couldn't get the apt down below 83 deg all day didn't mean
anything to him.

wrote:
On Jul 7, 5:42 pm, mm wrote:
On Sat, 07 Jul 2007 09:27:18 -0700, wrote:

"Why do you think it should be 20 deg
different?" he says. I told him that's what I found on the internet.
He checked more wires with his probe for another 5 minutes, then
checked the temperature again. It now said 64 deg (18 deg different).

Now the thing is working! Darn. It's much much harder to fix most
things when they are working right.

I'm not sure what you mean. Are you being sarcastic? He didn't adjust
anything, he was just using something that looked like a voltmeter
(and scratching his head, without actually doing that). Telling him
the A/C couldn't get the apt down below 83 deg all day didn't mean
anything to him.

The function of the A/C unit *itself* is to pump out air that's about
15F to 20F colder than the air that comes in (or actually, whatever
temperature difference is in its specifications). If it's doing that,
then *it* is working.

Now, in a larger context, the purpose of the A/C unit within your
actual apartment unit is to achieve a comfortable indoor temperature.
It is possible that the A/C unit is working perfectly according to its
specs but can't do that. In that case, the problem might be that the
A/C unit is simply undersized for the load it's having to handle.
That doesn't mean the A/C unit is broken. It means that you have the
wrong A/C unit. *If* this is the case, it cannot be fixed by tinkering
with the A/C unit.

To make a car analogy, if I try to tow a large trailer up a mountain
with a Toyota Corolla and I fail, does this mean the Toyota Corolla
is broken? No, and if I start looking in the engine compartment to
see what's "wrong" with the Toyota's engine, I am looking in the wrong
place.

The point is, perhaps the problem is that whoever designed the apartment
complex failed to choose appropriate A/C units given the size of the
apartments, the amount of insulation (which may be NONE), and variables
like that. And maybe they chose A/C units which are really energy-
inefficient. I don't know how common this type of bad engineering is,
but it seems like a plausible explanation for your situation.

- Logan

wrote in message
ups.com...
On Jul 7, 5:42 pm, mm wrote:
On Sat, 07 Jul 2007 09:27:18 -0700, wrote:
On Jul 6, 7:24 pm, wrote:
...
"Why do you think it should be 20 deg
different?" he says. I told him that's what I found on the internet.
He checked more wires with his probe for another 5 minutes, then
checked the temperature again. It now said 64 deg (18 deg different).

Now the thing is working! Darn. It's much much harder to fix most
things when they are working right. Even things that only work
intermittently. You pretty much have to catch it when it's not
working to be able to fix many things.


I'm not sure what you mean. Are you being sarcastic? He didn't adjust
anything, he was just using something that looked like a voltmeter
(and scratching his head, without actually doing that). Telling him
the A/C couldn't get the apt down below 83 deg all day didn't mean
anything to him.

Quit screwing with that loser, call a pro to fix it, pay the man then deduct
it from your rent.

On Jul 8, 1:40 pm, "Noon-Air" wrote:
wrote in message

ups.com...



On Jul 7, 5:42 pm, mm wrote:
On Sat, 07 Jul 2007 09:27:18 -0700, wrote:
On Jul 6, 7:24 pm, wrote:
...
"Why do you think it should be 20 deg
different?" he says. I told him that's what I found on the internet.
He checked more wires with his probe for another 5 minutes, then
checked the temperature again. It now said 64 deg (18 deg different).

Now the thing is working! Darn. It's much much harder to fix most
things when they are working right. Even things that only work
intermittently. You pretty much have to catch it when it's not
working to be able to fix many things.

I'm not sure what you mean. Are you being sarcastic? He didn't adjust
anything, he was just using something that looked like a voltmeter
(and scratching his head, without actually doing that). Telling him
the A/C couldn't get the apt down below 83 deg all day didn't mean
anything to him.

Quit screwing with that loser, call a pro to fix it, pay the man then deduct
it from your rent.

I hear you can do that in Illinois, or that use to be the case - maybe
other places. The contract says no tenant repairs or improvements
will be deducted from the rent. Of course that wouldn't matter if the
contract was in IL because the law overrules it, but I don't believe
that's the case here.

On Jul 8, 1:15 pm, Logan Shaw wrote:
wrote:
On Jul 7, 5:42 pm, mm wrote:
On Sat, 07 Jul 2007 09:27:18 -0700, wrote:
"Why do you think it should be 20 deg
different?" he says. I told him that's what I found on the internet.
He checked more wires with his probe for another 5 minutes, then
checked the temperature again. It now said 64 deg (18 deg different).
Now the thing is working! Darn. It's much much harder to fix most
things when they are working right.
I'm not sure what you mean. Are you being sarcastic? He didn't adjust
anything, he was just using something that looked like a voltmeter
(and scratching his head, without actually doing that). Telling him
the A/C couldn't get the apt down below 83 deg all day didn't mean
anything to him.

The function of the A/C unit *itself* is to pump out air that's about
15F to 20F colder than the air that comes in (or actually, whatever
temperature difference is in its specifications). If it's doing that,
then *it* is working.

Now, in a larger context, the purpose of the A/C unit within your
actual apartment unit is to achieve a comfortable indoor temperature.
It is possible that the A/C unit is working perfectly according to its
specs but can't do that. In that case, the problem might be that the
A/C unit is simply undersized for the load it's having to handle.
That doesn't mean the A/C unit is broken. It means that you have the
wrong A/C unit. *If* this is the case, it cannot be fixed by tinkering
with the A/C unit.

To make a car analogy, if I try to tow a large trailer up a mountain
with a Toyota Corolla and I fail, does this mean the Toyota Corolla
is broken? No, and if I start looking in the engine compartment to
see what's "wrong" with the Toyota's engine, I am looking in the wrong
place.

The point is, perhaps the problem is that whoever designed the apartment
complex failed to choose appropriate A/C units given the size of the
apartments, the amount of insulation (which may be NONE), and variables
like that. And maybe they chose A/C units which are really energy-
inefficient. I don't know how common this type of bad engineering is,
but it seems like a plausible explanation for your situation.

- Logan


I've been here for over a year and a half, and never had an electric
bill like that, the A/C has never ran continously like it is, and I
never had any problems getting the temp down to 76 deg.

The unit couldn't get the temperature below 83 the other day, when the
temperature outside was ONLY 90 deg with 37% humidity.

wrote:
On Jul 7, 8:08 pm, "HeyBub" wrote:
Smitty Two wrote:

Sorry, 12:00 p.m. *is* noon.

Only if you define twelve hours after the sun is at its highest
point to be noon.

Because more than 1 person is disputing whether 12:00 PM is noon, I
decided to do some looking.

TvGuide.com uses it.
So does DHL, a major delivery compay. They have a service called ""DHL
Next Day 12:00pm"
Fedex uses it too (search Google: "12:00 pm" site:fedex.com )
Then there's the loads of radio and TV stations that use it
(schedules).
Here's one: The TV series "24" - where each episode covers one hour.
http://www.aetv.com/24/24_episode_gu...episode=111985

Better idea. Who on Google uses "12:00 PM noon" as opposed to "12:00
AM noon?" -The searches below also match with "p.m." and "(noon)",
the search is for a string, not words anywhere in a document.
"12:00 PM noon" matches "about 195,000" documents on Google
"12:00PM noon" matches "about 32,700"
"12:00 AM noon" matches about 436
"12:00AM noon" matches about 49
So:
Total documents using "12:00pm noon" or "12:00 pm noon" = 227,700 /
228,185 = 99.8%
Total documents using "12:00am noon" or "12:00 am noon" = 485 /
228,185 = 0.2%

So (roughly) 2 people in 1000 think that 12:00am means noon. (The
margin of error with this is not significant enough to matter.)

That should settle this, but of course it won't...

Ever watch a digital watch change from 11:59:59 AM to 12:00:00 PM?

Or how about this - what is 3-2? Of course it is 1. What I mean is
that at 12:00:00PM half the day has already, at that instant, passed,
and it is now the beginning of the second half of the day.

I could care less what some guy says on some government website. If we
lived in a universe where time could move backwards, then that
discussion
would make more sense.

But you hold that FedEx, a 24!, and, most importantly, TV Guide are somehow
kept under glass at the National Bureau of Standards as exemplars of
institutional knowledge?

Your observations are, however, excellent! I blame the school systems. Heck,
in my state 60% of high school biology teachers (according to a recent
survey) believed that humans and dinosaurs were contemporaries!

Science and standards are not subject to majority vote (except in the case
of global warming), so whatever "votes" you discover are meaningless. Well,
there is obviously a nuggest of truth in the numbers, but that nugget has
nothing to do with the subject matter.

Your searches (12:00AM noon, et al) were wrong. There is no such thing in
the real world as "12:00AM noon." 12:00 a.m and noon are contradictory -
they cannot both exist at the same time. Likewise "12:00 p.m. and noon" are
also mutually exclusive.

But because something cannot exist does not mean you won't find Google
references. Heck "living+dead" resulted in almost 90 million hits,
"black+white" yields almost 400 million events, "catholic+atheist" shows
over 2 million instances!

An appeal to Google as an arbiter of physical standards is not the epitome
of scientific rigor.

Ignorance can be fixed. It's knowing something that's wrong that's a shame.

Logan Shaw wrote:

Now, in a larger context, the purpose of the A/C unit within your
actual apartment unit is to achieve a comfortable indoor temperature.
It is possible that the A/C unit is working perfectly according to its
specs but can't do that. In that case, the problem might be that the
A/C unit is simply undersized for the load it's having to handle.
That doesn't mean the A/C unit is broken. It means that you have the
wrong A/C unit. *If* this is the case, it cannot be fixed by
tinkering with the A/C unit.

It could be that when she steps into the apartment, that something
generating more heat than the A/C unit can counter also simultaneously
appears in the living area?

I've been here for over a year and a half, and never had an electric
bill like that, the A/C has never ran continously like it is, and I
never had any problems getting the temp down to 76 deg.

The unit couldn't get the temperature below 83 the other day, when the
temperature outside was ONLY 90 deg with 37% humidity.


Whining about it on here won't get it fixed, calling your local housing
authority might, and keep jumping on the landlord about his handyman doesn't
know **** about HVAC, get a pro out there, will. Just flat tell the SOB,
that he can send out a pro, and get it done right, or you will worry the
stew out of him. There is nothing that says you can't call him on the phone
dozens of times a day, or show up on his door step, and camp out until he
does something. How many other tenents are having issues?? Maybe a call to
your local TV station news room??

someone wrote:

keep jumping on the landlord

Just flat tell the SOB

call him on the phone dozens of times a day

Boy, this adversarial relationship between tenant and landlord (neighbor
and neighbor, boss and employee, contractor and homeowner, etc. ad
infinitum) that keeps getting advocated really irritates the **** out of
me. I'm a tenant and a landlord, and I have fantastic, cooperative,
sane, mutually beneficial relationships with the other party in both
circumstances. Luck? No. Intention.

"Noon-Air" wrote in message
Whining about it on here won't get it fixed, calling your local housing
authority might, and keep jumping on the landlord about his handyman
doesn't know **** about HVAC, get a pro out there, will. Just flat tell
the SOB, that he can send out a pro, and get it done right, or you will
worry the stew out of him. There is nothing that says you can't call him
on the phone dozens of times a day, or show up on his door step, and camp
out until he does something. How many other tenents are having issues??
Maybe a call to your local TV station news room??




Those tactics work when something illegal is being done. Landlords are
required to provide heat during the cold seasons, but, at least in most
cases, not required to AC the place in the summer. The housing authority
won't care much about the AC not being as cool as you'd like it.

Carie
is it chance that your ac also have electrical heat
you could have both on at same time???????????
Tony

wrote in message
ups.com...
On Jul 8, 1:40 pm, "Noon-Air" wrote:
wrote in message

ups.com...



On Jul 7, 5:42 pm, mm wrote:
On Sat, 07 Jul 2007 09:27:18 -0700, wrote:
On Jul 6, 7:24 pm, wrote:
...
"Why do you think it should be 20 deg
different?" he says. I told him that's what I found on the internet.
He checked more wires with his probe for another 5 minutes, then
checked the temperature again. It now said 64 deg (18 deg different).

Now the thing is working! Darn. It's much much harder to fix most
things when they are working right. Even things that only work
intermittently. You pretty much have to catch it when it's not
working to be able to fix many things.

I'm not sure what you mean. Are you being sarcastic? He didn't adjust
anything, he was just using something that looked like a voltmeter
(and scratching his head, without actually doing that). Telling him
the A/C couldn't get the apt down below 83 deg all day didn't mean
anything to him.

Quit screwing with that loser, call a pro to fix it, pay the man then
deduct
it from your rent.

I hear you can do that in Illinois, or that use to be the case - maybe
other places. The contract says no tenant repairs or improvements
will be deducted from the rent. Of course that wouldn't matter if the
contract was in IL because the law overrules it, but I don't believe
that's the case here.

wrote:

On Jul 7, 7:29 am, "HeyBub" wrote:

wrote:


It's been running non-stop since 12:00 PM, it's 7:46PM, and the temp
is still 83 deg, thermostat still at 80 deg. I would not have said
"hours" if it wasn't...

Hmm. 12:00PM implies twelve hours past midday (p.m. = "post meridian" = past
midday). That would be midnight. From there to 7:46PM means the ac has been
on for almost twenty hours.

Of course one could also say 12:00AM (a.m. = "ante meridian" = before
midday) which would also be midnight.



Sorry, 12:00PM is noon. Have a High School diploma?? Is English your
native language??



Lady, you are wrapped just a little bit too tght.

And you are wrong about the use of 12:00 PM to universally mean Noon.

wrote:

On Jul 7, 10:49 pm, BobK207 wrote:

On Jul 7, 3:21 pm, Logan Shaw wrote:




mm wrote:

I'll tell you how I remmeber this, and how I think it arose. The
moment of noon is neither before noon or after noon, but the
59.999999999...... seconds after that are after noon, and yet still
part of the minute that is 12:00. (and part of the second that is
12:00:00.) So even though all but the tiniest bit of the minute is not
noon, most of 12:00 noon is PM.

I'll have to admit that makes a lot of sense. The time exactly one
minute after noon is 12:01PM. If noon has to be called either 12:00PM
or 12:00AM, then out of the two, 12:00PM is the much more logical
choice since it would be wacky for 12:00AM to be followed immediately
by 12:01PM.

However, it is still not very good terminology since (a) the literal
meaning of "12:00AM" is nonsensical and (b) there is already a
perfectly good word ("noon") to describe the concept. On the other
other hand, it is convenient for digital clocks to be able to read
"12:00PM" instead of "noon", which is a good argument for defining
12:00PM to be noon. On the other other other hand, there are various
authorities whose opinions should matter, and they don't seem to all
agree on any one thing.

- Logan

mm & Logan-

Of course you two are correct in your analysis of whether noon is
12am or 12 pm

my original point was that 12am or 12pm can be (& is) confusing
depending the understanding writer & the reader

but noon & midnight are unmistakable to all.......

cheers
Bob



12:00am in used instead of 12:00pm only around 2 times in 1,000.
See my post on that elsewhere in this thread:
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.h...&output=gplain

Go fix your own AC you twit.

wrote:

On Jul 7, 4:52 pm, mm wrote:

On Sat, 07 Jul 2007 14:57:04 -0500, Logan Shaw



wrote:

wrote:

On Jul 7, 7:29 am, "HeyBub" wrote:

Hmm. 12:00PM implies twelve hours past midday (p.m. = "post meridian" = past
midday). That would be midnight. From there to 7:46PM means the ac has been
on for almost twenty hours.

Of course one could also say 12:00AM (a.m. = "ante meridian" = before
midday) which would also be midnight.

Sorry, 12:00PM is noon. Have a High School diploma?? Is English your
native language??

I have a high school (and college) diploma. Yet, I don't think everything
I heard in high school (or college) is automatically true. In particular,
2000 wasn't the first year of the new millenium, and 12:00 PM is not noon.

Here's an explanation of why:

http://tf.nist.gov/timefreq/general/...m#Anchor-57026

This is so on-point, I think it deserves to be quoted. Also, I don't
think there can be copyright issues with government websites info, all
of which should be in the public domain"

Are noon and midnight 12 a.m. or 12 p.m.?

This is a tricky question. The answer is that the terms 12 a.m.
and 12 p.m. are wrong and should not be used.

To illustrate this, consider that "a.m" and "p.m." are
abbreviations for "ante meridiem" and "post meridiem." They mean
"before noon" and "after noon," respectively. Noon is neither before
or after noon; it is simply noon. Therefore, neither the "a.m." nor
"p.m." designation is correct. On the other hand, midnight is both 12
hours before noon and 12 hours after noon. Therefore, either 12 a.m.
or 12 p.m. could work as a designation for midnight, but both would be
ambiguous as to the date intended.

When a specific date is important, and when we can use a 24-hour
clock, we prefer to designate that moment not as 1200 midnight, but
rather as 0000 if we are referring to the beginning of a given day (or
date), or 2400 if we are designating the end of a given day (or date).

To be certain of avoiding ambiguity (while still using a 12-hour
clock), specify an event as beginning at 1201 a.m. or ending at 1159
p.m., for example; this method is used by the railroads and airlines
for schedules, and is often found on legal papers such as contracts
and insurance policies.

=== I've heard this before.

If one is referring not to a specific date, but rather to
several days, or days in general, use the terms noon and midnight
instead of 12 a.m. and 12 p.m. For example, a bank might be open on
Saturdays from 8 a.m. to noon. Or a grocery store might be open daily
until midnight. The terms "12 noon" and "12 midnight" are also
correct, though redundant.

==== On July 3, I was a at a supermarket that had a temporary sign,
and someone had written "Open July 4, 7AM to 12AM, and then it had a
dark P written over the second A.


Note that this comes from NIST, the National Institute of Standards
and Technology, which is the US federal government agency responsible
for standardizing measurements.

I liked it better when it was the National Bureau of Standards. They
keep changing names and confusing me. (I'm just going to call the INS
"la Migra" so I don't have to worry when it changes names.)


These are the people who operate
NIST-F1, the atomic clock which is the primary reference for timekeeping
in the United States, and one of the primary references worldwide.

I'll tell you how I remmeber this, and how I think it arose. The
moment of noon is neither before noon or after noon, but the
59.999999999...... seconds after that are after noon, and yet still
part of the minute that is 12:00. (and part of the second that is
12:00:00.) So even though all but the tiniest bit of the minute is not
noon, most of 12:00 noon is PM.


- Logan


I posted a detailed reply to the 12:00 thing elsewhere is this thread.

Who cares what you posted. Is your AC working? If yes, shut up. If
no, shut up and go hire a repair person.

You are an annoying and self defeating fool.

On Sun, 08 Jul 2007 09:41:55 -0700, wrote:

On Jul 7, 5:42 pm, mm wrote:
On Sat, 07 Jul 2007 09:27:18 -0700, wrote:
On Jul 6, 7:24 pm, wrote:
...
"Why do you think it should be 20 deg
different?" he says. I told him that's what I found on the internet.
He checked more wires with his probe for another 5 minutes, then
checked the temperature again. It now said 64 deg (18 deg different).

Now the thing is working! Darn. It's much much harder to fix most
things when they are working right. Even things that only work
intermittently. You pretty much have to catch it when it's not
working to be able to fix many things.


I'm not sure what you mean. Are you being sarcastic? He didn't adjust

No, I'm not being sarcastic. It certainly wasn't working the night
before. It may not have worked 10 minutes earlier, and it may not be
working ten minutes later, but if there was an 18 degree differential,
it was working then.

I didn't say he fixed it. I said it was working then.

It's very hard to fix something when it is working. That's why Click
and Clack, or anyone, tell customers to leave their cars at the shop
the night before, when people have cars that work badly when first
started, but work ok later. Some people will go to a service station
and tell them it's hard to start in the morning, can you fix it? But
they very often can't, because it's either not morning anymore or the
person drove 3 miles to the service station and the engine is warm
now, and it's working fine.

But even things that don't require warming up can have intermittent
problems. (Long story snipped before it was completed. Just take my
word.)

Even if the spec sheet says it should be 20, it's stilll working
pretty well, and if were able to stay that way, it would still cool
your apartment to the temp you want.

anything, he was just using something that looked like a voltmeter
(and scratching his head, without actually doing that). Telling him
the A/C couldn't get the apt down below 83 deg all day didn't mean
anything to him.

He may well have been incompetent, but your relationship is with your
landlord and not with this guy or the AC company.

You can make notes and calmly tell the landlord that he was ready to
leave after making two measurements with the voltmeter, but always be
polite.

I've lived in several apartments and one in Brooklyn NY for 11 years.
Actually one year in 4C and 10 years in 5A. The building was a nice
building, and the old woman landlady sold it after I had been there 3
or 4 years, to a European immigrant. I already had a policy of doing
my own repairs, and the aparment needed little anyhow. But I couldn't
do plaster and when there was a leak or something in the bathroom
above mine, I let him send his guy to repair the plaster, and it
looked like the icing on a cake, with all the hills and swirls.
Pitiful. He also thought he was a plumber and tried to fix the big
oil burner/boiler (6 stories, 49 units, steam heat) but he really
didn't know how. (There was a bucket in the furance room half full of
oil where he seemed unable to stop an oil drip in one of the pipes
related to the furnace. And other things.)

He also tried to evict me illegally. I was 2 weeks late on the rent
and he thought or said he thought I was 6 weeks late. He also only
gave me 48 hours notice, on a FRiday morning when I was going away for
the weekend, instead of starting with the required 30-days notice,
which he just skipped altoghether. So Monday morning, I didnt' go to
work, and I was inside the aparment with the door locked and chained,
and I wouldn't open the door for the city marshall, who had come to
evict me. I insisted on talking to the landlord first and he wasn't
at his office (before cell phones) but they called him and he called
me, and I convinced him I he had proceeded illegally as I say above,
and that if he did get me out, I was going to win in court for moving
charges, storage charges, plus the illegal eviction. (You can do this
with a good chance of success in NYC where tenants have rights. But in
almost all small cities and most big cities, tenants have fewer rights
than in NYC. So check before doing anything.)

I ended up agreeing to leave the apartment and go with his guy Friday
to my bank where I would get the money to pay that months's rent, and
to pay 3 or 4 hundred dollars to the marshall who also had to pay the
moving van for showing up even though they didn't move my stuff.

Did I yell at the landlord or curse him? Did I ever do that? No,
because those things would have not helped me.

I did however, withhold my rent on two occasions that we didn't have
heat, and of the three times he took me to court, once I broke even,
once I was awarded 100 dollars iirc, and once 200 dollars for the
electricity I used to make up for the heat he didn't give me.

If you don't live in New York City, it is very dangerous to withhold
rent. In most places you will get evicted for this, no matter how
valid your claim might be. You may win money later but your claim
will not stop your eviction, which will go much quicker than in NY as
well. This is true even for heat, but for air conditioning, people
have almost no rights, partly because very few people will die without
AC, but many die without heat, and partly because AC is relatively
new, and didn't exist or wasn't very common when most tenants rights
laws were written, several decades ago.

Well, finally, I was ready to move, and I told him I would move if he
gave me 1000 dollars (part to make up for what I shouldn't have had to
pay the marshall, and part for the interest on my secuity deposit for
11 years, which he was obliged by NYS law to give me but I was pretty
sure he woudln't, and part for aggravation.

And he agreed. And his lawyer told him not to give me the money until
after I moved out. And I told them I wouldn't move out until I had
the money. (I must admit. I didn't tell them I had bought a house
already in Baltimore, and accepted a job, and was leaving for sure. I
told him I had found an apartment in Queens, so he would think I might
not move after all.)

And Alex, the landlord, told the lawyer and his guy Friday (who told
me this story), "You can trust Michael".

He trusted me because I had never lied to him, I had never cursed him,
I had never yelled at him or insulted him, I had never called him at
home (even though neighbors had, some in the middle of the night, and
they had given me his home number)

Even when we didn't have heat in the middle of the night, I used my
electric heater, and didn't call him at home. I also treated him and
anyone who answered the phone with politeness and respect, no matter
what I was actually thinking about him.

On Sun, 8 Jul 2007 14:28:34 -0500, "Noon-Air"
wrote:



I've been here for over a year and a half, and never had an electric
bill like that, the A/C has never ran continously like it is, and I
never had any problems getting the temp down to 76 deg.

OK, so it's not the size of the AC.

The unit couldn't get the temperature below 83 the other day, when the
temperature outside was ONLY 90 deg with 37% humidity.

What about today? It was working for a little while. It would be
good to know about how long it was working, and what the temp is in
the apartment today. And what the temp is outside.

You should keep at least a daily record, but maybe an every 12 or 6 or
4 hour record when you are not sleeping. This will be valuable in
convincing the landlord it's still a real problem, in discussing
things with a city agency or in court if it ever gets to either of
those places, and might even turn out to help the repairmnan fix the
problem, if the problem is intermittent, which it seems to be.

Do you have a thermometer? You must have a thermometer, and frankly
it has to be more than 3 or 4 inches long to convince anyone it's ok.
I'm sure you can get one for a dollar at a dollar store, and a good,
prettier one for no more than 5. I'm still using a thermmeter I
bought 35 years ago, and one I bought 29 years ago. They are white
plastic so that it's gently backlit during the day time as the sun
goes through the white plastic. I had to reglue the glass tube into
place about 10 years ago (there's a small mark filed on the side that
should be next to 32 when it is glued, or you can tell where it was
sitting becuase there's a little dirt). I also bought a second
identical thermometer when I didn't have eneough heat (see other post
that may appear below this one) to keep a record of the indoor temp.
So now I have one on the second floor outside and one on the frist
floor outside.

Keep a record of the temp in the room you spend most of your time in,
and of your bedroom, and measure the temp of the air coming out of the
AC, and the air going in, probably where the ac guy did that, and keep
a record of everything. You will get far more respect from everyone
concerned than just saying it was 83 most days. Keep a record of
which of your vents are open and which are closed, and anything
unusual.

While your at it, even though it is the AC that is the big cause,
look for anything else that might be cause heat loss. If you can cure
anything yourself, your ll will respectd that. If you can't fix it,
just list it calmly (although maybe not unless he asks or until the AC
is fixed. If he's a bad landlord, he might decide to spend a week or
two on some small air leak, rather than pay for a high-rate repair
during the very hot weather.

Im assuming there is more than one rate. Do, or how many do, AC
repairmen charge more during July and August. Or do they charge the
same and you just have to wait at the bottom of the list?


Whining about it on here won't get it fixed, calling your local housing
authority might,

These groups usually work slowly, I am under the impression. How
could it be otherwise? First they call on the phone. The secretary
says, He'll get back to you. He calls back the next day, and says he
sent a repairman, but it doesn't seem to be fixed. They say, when do
you think you will be able to fix it. He says, The AC company says
tehgy'll be out the day after tomorrow. They call the tenant in a
week to see if it is fixed. She's at work and calls back the next
day, and so on.

and keep jumping on the landlord about his handyman doesn't
know **** about HVAC,

It doesn't matter how much he knows. The point is that it isn't fixed
yet. (assuming it is still hot inside today.)

get a pro out there, will. Just flat tell the SOB,
that he can send out a pro, and get it done right, or you will worry the
stew out of him. There is nothing that says you can't call him on the phone
dozens of times a day,

Yes there is. At some point LESS than dozens of time a day, it is
harrassment, and besides the potential liablitity for that, no court
of agency will look kindly on someone who does that.

or show up on his door step, and camp out until he
does something.

That too.

How many other tenents are having issues?? Maybe a call to
your local TV station news room??

This is also a mistake, especially when dealing with someone who had
it fixed a month ago (and as far as we know, it worked for the past
month until it broke sometime within the last week) and who has sent a
repairman, no matter how incompetnent. I'm sure the AC charged the LL
for a service call, and when he finds out it still doesn't work, the
LL will want to know what he's paying for. The AC company will say,
as they should, that it had 18 degrees differential when they were
there, and that is why the tenant has to keep a record like I say
above.

Even if perchance the kind of repeated complaining you are
recommending were to get her AC fixed, do you think she will get any
cooperation on anything in the future. At most given the reaction of
most people to being annoyed, she'll get the minimum the lease
requires and she'll have to wait for that.

And when the lease expires, he may well refuse to renew it. AFAIK, in
most places there is no recourse when a landlord refuses to renew a
lease. Even in places with rent control or rent stabilization, unless
you are in an aparment covered by one of those laws, there is afaik no
recourse. Even in NYC maybe but for sure in most or all other places.

She's been there a year and ahalf. Her lease might be up in 6 months.
It might have been up 6 months ago. She might be month-to-month now,
or soon. 30 days notice and she's got to be out, or in some places
she would have to the end of the month.

On Sun, 08 Jul 2007 16:37:41 -0400, mm
wrote:


If you don't live in New York City, it is very dangerous to withhold
rent. In most places you

I mentioned a moving van above, now snipped. Don't expect a moving
van. In NYC, LLs are required when evicting someone to put their
stuff in a moving van and take it to a storage location, where they
can redeem it, by paying the moving and storage, I think.

IN most places in the US and elsewhere, all they do is take your stuff
and put it on the sidewalk. Where it may be rained on, or people can
take it.

I was in Westminster Md, a town of maybe 5,000 near here, and
someone's stuff was in the corner of a parking lot of an apartment
building with 3 long police sawhorses around it, and a poster stapled
to each one that said something like, Police property, or Do not
remove. This was meant to keep other people than the tenant from
stealing the stuff, and that's better than most places, but I wouldn't
count on it.

On Sun, 08 Jul 2007 16:37:41 -0400, mm
wrote:

This is true even for heat, but for air conditioning, people
have almost no rights, partly because very few people will die without
AC, but many die without heat, and partly because AC is relatively
new, and didn't exist or wasn't very common when most tenants rights
laws were written, several decades ago.

I don't want to give the impression that tenants have rights. IN some
places there are tenants rights laws, but in most places afaik, there
are none. And they only have the rights that are in the lease, and in
general contract law or common law. Plus even those rights can be
trampelled, especially if the landlord is wicked or if you tick off
the landlord.

On Jul 8, 4:27 pm, jJim McLaughlin wrote:
wrote:
On Jul 7, 7:29 am, "HeyBub" wrote:

wrote:

It's been running non-stop since 12:00 PM, it's 7:46PM, and the temp
is still 83 deg, thermostat still at 80 deg. I would not have said
"hours" if it wasn't...

Hmm. 12:00PM implies twelve hours past midday (p.m. = "post meridian" = past
midday). That would be midnight. From there to 7:46PM means the ac has been
on for almost twenty hours.

Of course one could also say 12:00AM (a.m. = "ante meridian" = before
midday) which would also be midnight.

Sorry, 12:00PM is noon. Have a High School diploma?? Is English your
native language??

Lady, you are wrapped just a little bit too tght.

And you are wrong about the use of 12:00 PM to universally mean Noon.

I didn't say universally, I said about 99.8% of the time.

On Jul 8, 4:32 pm, jJim McLaughlin wrote:
wrote:
On Jul 7, 4:52 pm, mm wrote:

On Sat, 07 Jul 2007 14:57:04 -0500, Logan Shaw

wrote:

wrote:

On Jul 7, 7:29 am, "HeyBub" wrote:

Hmm. 12:00PM implies twelve hours past midday (p.m. = "post meridian" = past
midday). That would be midnight. From there to 7:46PM means the ac has been
on for almost twenty hours.

Of course one could also say 12:00AM (a.m. = "ante meridian" = before
midday) which would also be midnight.

Sorry, 12:00PM is noon. Have a High School diploma?? Is English your
native language??

I have a high school (and college) diploma. Yet, I don't think everything
I heard in high school (or college) is automatically true. In particular,
2000 wasn't the first year of the new millenium, and 12:00 PM is not noon.

Here's an explanation of why:

http://tf.nist.gov/timefreq/general/...m#Anchor-57026

This is so on-point, I think it deserves to be quoted. Also, I don't
think there can be copyright issues with government websites info, all
of which should be in the public domain"

Are noon and midnight 12 a.m. or 12 p.m.?

This is a tricky question. The answer is that the terms 12 a.m.
and 12 p.m. are wrong and should not be used.

To illustrate this, consider that "a.m" and "p.m." are
abbreviations for "ante meridiem" and "post meridiem." They mean
"before noon" and "after noon," respectively. Noon is neither before
or after noon; it is simply noon. Therefore, neither the "a.m." nor
"p.m." designation is correct. On the other hand, midnight is both 12
hours before noon and 12 hours after noon. Therefore, either 12 a.m.
or 12 p.m. could work as a designation for midnight, but both would be
ambiguous as to the date intended.

When a specific date is important, and when we can use a 24-hour
clock, we prefer to designate that moment not as 1200 midnight, but
rather as 0000 if we are referring to the beginning of a given day (or
date), or 2400 if we are designating the end of a given day (or date).

To be certain of avoiding ambiguity (while still using a 12-hour
clock), specify an event as beginning at 1201 a.m. or ending at 1159
p.m., for example; this method is used by the railroads and airlines
for schedules, and is often found on legal papers such as contracts
and insurance policies.

=== I've heard this before.

If one is referring not to a specific date, but rather to
several days, or days in general, use the terms noon and midnight
instead of 12 a.m. and 12 p.m. For example, a bank might be open on
Saturdays from 8 a.m. to noon. Or a grocery store might be open daily
until midnight. The terms "12 noon" and "12 midnight" are also
correct, though redundant.

==== On July 3, I was a at a supermarket that had a temporary sign,
and someone had written "Open July 4, 7AM to 12AM, and then it had a
dark P written over the second A.

Note that this comes from NIST, the National Institute of Standards
and Technology, which is the US federal government agency responsible
for standardizing measurements.

I liked it better when it was the National Bureau of Standards. They
keep changing names and confusing me. (I'm just going to call the INS
"la Migra" so I don't have to worry when it changes names.)

These are the people who operate
NIST-F1, the atomic clock which is the primary reference for timekeeping
in the United States, and one of the primary references worldwide.

I'll tell you how I remmeber this, and how I think it arose. The
moment of noon is neither before noon or after noon, but the
59.999999999...... seconds after that are after noon, and yet still
part of the minute that is 12:00. (and part of the second that is
12:00:00.) So even though all but the tiniest bit of the minute is not
noon, most of 12:00 noon is PM.

- Logan

I posted a detailed reply to the 12:00 thing elsewhere is this thread.

Who cares what you posted. Is your AC working? If yes, shut up. If
no, shut up and go hire a repair person.

You are an annoying and self defeating fool.

Does your newsreader make you read everthing??? If you don't like the
thread why are you reading it?

mm wrote:
On Sat, 07 Jul 2007 08:20:20 -0700, wrote:

On Jul 7, 5:36 am, mm wrote:
On Sat, 07 Jul 2007 01:13:10 -0700, wrote:
On Jul 7, 3:12 am, mm wrote:
On Fri, 06 Jul 2007 16:47:19 -0700, wrote:
On Jul 6, 7:45 pm, "Don K" wrote:
...
What you think that any buman (who has ever used AC) would recognize
might well not be what someone else thinks.
BobK207 thinks enough of peoples intelligence to say "Oh & for clarity
don't use 12:00PM ....use noon or midnight to avoid confusion." (The
next most recent post in this thread, sorted by time.)

I saw his post. It's not bad advice. I got an 800 on my math SATs,
as high as the score goes, and it wasn't until I was 45 or so that I
finally got straight which was which. I finally came up with a way to
remmeber which was which. Logic is my thing, and not memorization.
There are lots of people who for lots of reasons haven't got it
straight, and it's good policy to make things as easy as possible for
people who are trying to help. It's almost the equivalent of removing
things that are in front of the furnace before the repairman gets
there, even though he can and will do it himself.

What's worse than AM and PM is 12m and 12M. I still don't know which
one of those is noon. I wonder how many people do.

When my mother hired a painter, she took off all he wall plates before
he got there and put them back on after he left. And other stuff like
that. They made that agreement so she could pay less. (She also
told me he was "blind", but I'm not sure what that meant. He did a
good job.)

Who the F cares?

Jeffrey Lebowski wrote:
wrote in message
ps.com...
On Jul 7, 12:47 am, kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:
wrote in message

oups.com...



On Jul 6, 10:55 pm, wrote:
On Jul 6, 8:05 pm, "Noon-Air" wrote:
wrote in message
...
Hire a *competent*, licensed, bonded, insured, professionally
trained
HVAC
technician, instead of depending on some flunkie handiman that
couldn't make
it doing anything else.
What specifically do I ask him tomorrow? (Types of HVAC
certifications?) He is being sent by the landlord, which I don't
pay
for.
Just searched Google - found EPA Section 608 Certification, NEMI -
TABB certification, NATE, and HVAC Excellence.
Comments?
Yeah, you're not footing the bill.
If he's not certified, and if the temperature coming out the vent is
not at least 15 degrees less than the ambient temperature, then I'm
going to send a letter to the landlord. The landlord is required to
keep the A/C in working order, and I'm not responsible for outragous
electric bills if they won't fix it.


Yeah that's something usually written right into your contract.

Now, define outragous.

You ****ing slut.

--

Now this post I can agree with! Geez cross posting fundie idiots...