Hi all.

So, I am about to give up

I've been pumping water out of my basement every evening for two weeks
now (following NE two weeks ago). The water is still comming back.
Every rainy day sets me about 5 days back (in my basement water
condition). It looks water table is not going anywhere any time soon.

So I am almost about to pay big bucks for something to be done in my
basement.

My basment is unfinished and consists of crawl space and another space
6 feet high, deeper in the ground. The floor is concrete, and it is
not even (I have to pump out of three different spots now).

One of contractors suggests 2 separate systems -- one for the crawl
space and one for the another space -- each one with sump pump and
french drain. He is saying that two systems are nesessary because the
different floor level, and the french drain is especially necessary
since the floor is not even. He is asking $7000 for this work.

I am in NJ.

Do you think what he suggested to be done is reasonable?

Do you think the price is reasonable? How is it affected with the
fact that the work seems urgent?

Thanks for any advice.

Arkadiy

So, I am about to give up

It sounds like you posted all the details earlier. For those of us who
don't remember it, can you repost?

On Apr 29, 10:28 am, "Toller" wrote:
So, I am about to give up

It sounds like you posted all the details earlier. For those of us who
don't remember it, can you repost?

2 weeks ago, during the noreaster, my basement got flooded (about a
foot of water). I don't have a sump pump, and during previous five
years (I bought the house 5 years ago) everything was mostly
allright, although once I saw a small pool of water sipping through
the floor. I wiped it off then, and that was it. Apparently
everything was more or less OK during the previous 40 years since the
house was built.

I use a utility pump to get rid of water, but the water keeps comming
back through the floor (apparently because of the raised water
table). The first five days since the main event were dry and hot, so
I almost got rid of water, but then there was one more rainy day, and
again I had about 3 in of water... Now, three days later, I am down
to half an inch, but tomorrow, according to the forcast, is gonna rain
again

Also I have a separate crawl space, and even though it's floor level
is higher, there is more water in the lowest part of it...

Thanks for any advice,
Arkadiy

Here is the link to the original discussion:

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.h...8400879e0bf943

Thanks,
Arkadiy

Arkadiy writes:

Hi all.

So, I am about to give up

I've been pumping water out of my basement every evening for two weeks
now (following NE two weeks ago). The water is still comming back.
Every rainy day sets me about 5 days back (in my basement water
condition). It looks water table is not going anywhere any time soon.

So I am almost about to pay big bucks for something to be done in my
basement.

My basment is unfinished and consists of crawl space and another space
6 feet high, deeper in the ground. The floor is concrete, and it is
not even (I have to pump out of three different spots now).

One of contractors suggests 2 separate systems -- one for the crawl
space and one for the another space -- each one with sump pump and
french drain. He is saying that two systems are nesessary because the
different floor level, and the french drain is especially necessary
since the floor is not even. He is asking $7000 for this work.

I am in NJ.

I'm NJ too.
I had the french drains put in years ago.
They will solve the problem.

The price seems reasonable.
In NJ most people had Vulcan calling them
all the time. This was before telemarketing
went completely out of control and I called
them when I decided to have the work done.
I can't remember what I paid but this was in
the 70s.

When you see the amount of work it takes
the price will seem more reasonable.

Some things to consider.
They may want to hook up to the sanitary system.
Don't let them, in most places that's illegal.
Discuss that before hand.

If you might have radon issues, consider that.
They will be opening the slab to air infiltration.
It may agravate radon penetration and you might
later have to have the system sealed.

"Arkadiy" wrote in message
oups.com...
On Apr 29, 10:28 am, "Toller" wrote:
So, I am about to give up

It sounds like you posted all the details earlier. For those of us who
don't remember it, can you repost?

2 weeks ago, during the noreaster, my basement got flooded (about a
foot of water). I don't have a sump pump, and during previous five
years (I bought the house 5 years ago) everything was mostly
allright, although once I saw a small pool of water sipping through
the floor. I wiped it off then, and that was it. Apparently
everything was more or less OK during the previous 40 years since the
house was built.

Do you have close neighbors? What is going on with them?
Do you have a storm sewer to pump into? If not, do you have anywhere to
pump to?

On Apr 29, 2:40 pm, "Toller" wrote:

Do you have close neighbors? What is going on with them?

Most people do have sump pumps. But they have not worked in years, so
some of them happen to be out of order, and those basements also got
flooded...

Do you have a storm sewer to pump into? If not, do you have anywhere to
pump to?

I can't answer this question -- got to figure out the answer yet...

Thanks,
Arkadiy

On Apr 29, 11:38 am, Dan Espen
wrote:

I'm NJ too.
I had the french drains put in years ago.
They will solve the problem.

The price seems reasonable.
In NJ most people had Vulcan calling them
all the time. This was before telemarketing
went completely out of control and I called
them when I decided to have the work done.
I can't remember what I paid but this was in
the 70s.

When you see the amount of work it takes
the price will seem more reasonable.

Some things to consider.
They may want to hook up to the sanitary system.
Don't let them, in most places that's illegal.
Discuss that before hand.

If you might have radon issues, consider that.
They will be opening the slab to air infiltration.
It may agravate radon penetration and you might
later have to have the system sealed.- Hide quoted text -

Thanks.

How do I know if I have rodon issues? 5 years ago, during the
inspection, the rodon level was normal...

On Apr 29, 2:56�pm, Arkadiy wrote:
On Apr 29, 11:38 am, Dan Espen
wrote:





I'm NJ too.
I had the french drains put in years ago.
They will solve the problem.

The price seems reasonable.
In NJ most people had Vulcan calling them
all the time. *This was before telemarketing
went completely out of control and I called
them when I decided to have the work done.
I can't remember what I paid but this was in
the 70s.

When you see the amount of work it takes
the price will seem more reasonable.

Some things to consider.
They may want to hook up to the sanitary system.
Don't let them, in most places that's illegal.
Discuss that before hand.

If you might have radon issues, consider that.
They will be opening the slab to air infiltration.
It may agravate radon penetration and you might
later have to have the system sealed.- Hide quoted text -

Thanks.

How do I know if I have rodon issues? *5 years ago, during the
inspection, the rodon level was normal...- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

does your homes basement sit above the level of the street?

rephrased is there somewhere to drain the water too?

Arkadiy writes:

On Apr 29, 11:38 am, Dan Espen
wrote:

I'm NJ too.
I had the french drains put in years ago.
They will solve the problem.

The price seems reasonable.
In NJ most people had Vulcan calling them
all the time. This was before telemarketing
went completely out of control and I called
them when I decided to have the work done.
I can't remember what I paid but this was in
the 70s.

When you see the amount of work it takes
the price will seem more reasonable.

Some things to consider.
They may want to hook up to the sanitary system.
Don't let them, in most places that's illegal.
Discuss that before hand.

If you might have radon issues, consider that.
They will be opening the slab to air infiltration.
It may agravate radon penetration and you might
later have to have the system sealed.- Hide quoted text -

Thanks.

How do I know if I have rodon issues? 5 years ago, during the
inspection, the rodon level was normal...


Any houses in your area with Radon levels that needed remediation
would be one clue.

"Arkadiy" wrote in message
ups.com...
On Apr 29, 2:40 pm, "Toller" wrote:

Do you have close neighbors? What is going on with them?

Most people do have sump pumps. But they have not worked in years, so
some of them happen to be out of order, and those basements also got
flooded...

Do you have a storm sewer to pump into? If not, do you have anywhere to
pump to?

I can't answer this question -- got to figure out the answer yet...

Knowing what you can do with the water is obviously very important. Find
that out before talking to contractors. Pumping water up 2' is very
different than pumping it up 10'.

I would be real reluctant to spend $7,000 to fix a problem that happens
every 15 years, especially with an unfinished basement.
If you can wait a while, the price ought to come down.

A sump pump (maybe two) might solve your problem. They should be under
$1,000 each, depending on where the water has to go. They might not handle
the floods you had this year, but it is possible that the $7000 fix wouldn't
have handled it either. Talk to your neighbors to find out what was, and
what wasn't, adequate.

I find it real hard to believe that drains are necessary in the crawl space.
If you are pumping water out of the basement the crawl space shouldn't see
much water. But there might be a good reason for it; we can't see your
house...

On 29 Apr 2007 06:49:00 -0700, Arkadiy wrote:

Hi all.

So, I am about to give up

I've been pumping water out of my basement every evening for two weeks
now (following NE two weeks ago). The water is still comming back.

P&M

I'm not sure what kind of utility pump you are using, but instead of
pumping in the evening, why don't you buy a sump pump and pump all day
and all night long. The pump will turn off when the water level gets
to an inch or two. I think you can buy a pedestal pump or a
submersillble sump pump and both will work the same basically.

You don't need a sump to use a sump pump if there is water in the
whole basement.

I'm sure you can use flexible hose, perhaps the same hose you are
using now, and clamp it on to the output with a radiator hose clamp.

I'm not saying this will solve your problem, but you won't have to
tend to the pump, and you won't feel like you are in such a rush with
only an inch or two in the basement. You may be able to channel the
water from the crawlspace to the six foot basement area, but you'lve
probably already done that.

When you solve this problem, however you do it, you can take your sump
pump and put it in (one of?) your sumps. So it won't cost you a
thing.

I would turn it on and run it for a half hour without leaving the
house the first time. And don't plug it in or unplug it when you are
standing in water. I hope you are turning your current pump on and
off safely, so whatever you are doing for that you can probably do for
this one.

Every rainy day sets me about 5 days back (in my basement water
condition).

That won't be true if you pump 24 hours a day.

That's all I have for now.


It looks water table is not going anywhere any time soon.

So I am almost about to pay big bucks for something to be done in my
basement.

My basment is unfinished and consists of crawl space and another space
6 feet high, deeper in the ground. The floor is concrete, and it is
not even (I have to pump out of three different spots now).

One of contractors suggests 2 separate systems -- one for the crawl
space and one for the another space -- each one with sump pump and
french drain. He is saying that two systems are nesessary because the
different floor level, and the french drain is especially necessary
since the floor is not even. He is asking $7000 for this work.

I am in NJ.

Do you think what he suggested to be done is reasonable?

Do you think the price is reasonable? How is it affected with the
fact that the work seems urgent?

Thanks for any advice.

Arkadiy

On Sun, 29 Apr 2007 15:35:03 -0400, Dan Espen
wrote:


If you might have radon issues, consider that.
They will be opening the slab to air infiltration.
It may agravate radon penetration and you might
later have to have the system sealed.- Hide quoted text -

Thanks.

How do I know if I have rodon issues? 5 years ago, during the
inspection, the rodon level was normal...

If you didn't have it in the first test, especially if was a 5-day
test and not a 12 hour test, you probably don't have it now.

Except for the point he makes that if you cut a hole for the sump,
maybe more will slip through.

They sell radon test kits at hardware stores, including Home Depot
etc. The good ones (at least 20 years ago) had to stay in the
basement for several days, then had to be sent away in the envelope
provided where they would process the test. I don't remember how long
this takes in practice. Probably less now.

I think what they do now often is put the radon removal fan vent in
the sump. I saw that once.

But don't get too worried. Only what 10% of houses have radon, or
more, or fewer. I don't remember but it's nowhere near a majority
even. Still this would be a good time to run one more test if you are
going to cut all the way through your floor.

Because a complete floor keeps the radon out, right? It only gets in
through cracks if there are some, and sumps. Right?

On 29 Apr 2007 11:53:40 -0700, Arkadiy wrote:

On Apr 29, 2:40 pm, "Toller" wrote:

Do you have close neighbors? What is going on with them?

Most people do have sump pumps. But they have not worked in years, so
some of them happen to be out of order, and those basements also got
flooded...

In my n'hood, everyone with a below grade basement had to have a sump
pump, the law. everyone, in 1979, who had a basement which was at
ground level, which in our case was just at one end of the basement
(to the back yard), didn't get a sump pump. I don't know if any of
them added one.

Do you have a storm sewer to pump into? If not, do you have anywhere to
pump to?

I can't answer this question -- got to figure out the answer yet...

Where does your utility pump pump to?

Thanks,
Arkadiy

Without pictures, it's hard to say for sure, but ti does sound
reasonable. Sounds like whatever is happening is gettign worse over
time. My only question is to (given the age of the home) if the
outside concrete has been waterproffed lately. It probably needs it
if it hasn't been done in a long time. I'd try that first.

Toller wrote:

Do you have close neighbors? What is going on with them?

Yes, most of them have sump pumps.

Do you have a storm sewer to pump into? If not, do you have anywhere to
pump to?

On the street?

Toller wrote:

Knowing what you can do with the water is obviously very important. Find
that out before talking to contractors. Pumping water up 2' is very
different than pumping it up 10'.

It's definitely closer to 2' than to 10'

I would be real reluctant to spend $7,000 to fix a problem that happens
every 15 years, especially with an unfinished basement.
If you can wait a while, the price ought to come down.

Here is my concern -- I am afraid for the floor which is currently
exposed to wery high humidity. I can't provide appropriate
ventilation -- I have only one tiny window in the whole basement
area. I don't know how dangerous it is. If not, I would wait untill
things dry out, and then decide what to do.

A sump pump (maybe two) might solve your problem. They should be under
$1,000 each, depending on where the water has to go. They might not handle
the floods you had this year, but it is possible that the $7000 fix wouldn't
have handled it either. Talk to your neighbors to find out what was, and
what wasn't, adequate.

Here is the question: if there is a sump pump, how does the water get
to it? Through the floor serfice or under it, before reaching the
floor level? I got the impression that it goes through the floor
serfice (or french drain on this surface).


Thanks,
Arkadiy

mm wrote:

Where does your utility pump pump to?

on to the street.

wrote:

does your homes basement sit above the level of the street?

rephrased is there somewhere to drain the water too?

No, I think the basement floor is below the level of the street -- the
water has to be pumped out...

Arkadiy writes:

Toller wrote:

Knowing what you can do with the water is obviously very important. Find
that out before talking to contractors. Pumping water up 2' is very
different than pumping it up 10'.

It's definitely closer to 2' than to 10'

I would be real reluctant to spend $7,000 to fix a problem that happens
every 15 years, especially with an unfinished basement.
If you can wait a while, the price ought to come down.

Here is my concern -- I am afraid for the floor which is currently
exposed to wery high humidity. I can't provide appropriate
ventilation -- I have only one tiny window in the whole basement
area. I don't know how dangerous it is. If not, I would wait untill
things dry out, and then decide what to do.

A sump pump (maybe two) might solve your problem. They should be under
$1,000 each, depending on where the water has to go. They might not handle
the floods you had this year, but it is possible that the $7000 fix wouldn't
have handled it either. Talk to your neighbors to find out what was, and
what wasn't, adequate.

Here is the question: if there is a sump pump, how does the water get
to it? Through the floor serfice or under it, before reaching the
floor level? I got the impression that it goes through the floor
serfice (or french drain on this surface).

Hi,

The french drain I previously posted about replaced a sump pump.
A sump pump by itself can work, but there are all kinds
of "work".

I was only getting water every 3rd year or so with the sump
pump.

Now that I have the french drain, I haven't had a flood
for 20+ years.
I'm sure there is some amount of rain that would cause of flood
though.

My drain goes out thru the basement wall thru a long pipe under
the lawn and thru the curb (belgian block) into the street.

If you can get far enough from the house to flow over
the lawn that would probably be OK, but I'd expect
to see some canals form that you might have to fill
periodically.

On Sun, 29 Apr 2007 22:22:35 -0400, mm
wrote:

Still this would be a good time to run one more test if you are
going to cut all the way through your floor.

I mean, to run one more test AFTER you cut the holes in the floor.
Would definitely do that.

mm wrote:

I'm not saying this will solve your problem, but you won't have to
tend to the pump, and you won't feel like you are in such a rush with
only an inch or two in the basement.

This is what I have now (or even a little better), but tomorrow is
another rainy day according to the forcast My main concern is high
humidity in the basement, and how it affects the wood (floor) above
it.

You may be able to channel the
water from the crawlspace to the six foot basement area, but you'lve
probably already done that.

No, I thought about this, but I would have to do it in the
concrete... to my surprise the contractor doing the estimate didn't
propose this... He proposed two separate french drain systems.

Every rainy day sets me about 5 days back (in my basement water
condition).

That won't be true if you pump 24 hours a day.

Correct, but for this I need enough water to collect in one place.

On Apr 30, 1:34 pm, Arkadiy wrote:
Toller wrote:
Knowing what you can do with the water is obviously very important. Find
that out before talking to contractors. Pumping water up 2' is very
different than pumping it up 10'.

It's definitely closer to 2' than to 10'

I would be real reluctant to spend $7,000 to fix a problem that happens
every 15 years, especially with an unfinished basement.
If you can wait a while, the price ought to come down.

Here is my concern -- I am afraid for the floor which is currently
exposed to wery high humidity. I can't provide appropriate
ventilation -- I have only one tiny window in the whole basement
area. I don't know how dangerous it is. If not, I would wait untill
things dry out, and then decide what to do.

A sump pump (maybe two) might solve your problem. They should be under
$1,000 each, depending on where the water has to go. They might not handle
the floods you had this year, but it is possible that the $7000 fix wouldn't
have handled it either. Talk to your neighbors to find out what was, and
what wasn't, adequate.

Here is the question: if there is a sump pump, how does the water get
to it? Through the floor serfice or under it, before reaching the
floor level? I got the impression that it goes through the floor
serfice (or french drain on this surface).

Thanks,
Arkadiy

The water should get to the pump, under the slab, before anything is
wet above.
Make the sump as deep as possible. In my case, in previous house, I
then
hand-formed mortar into sump-liner, with multiple entry holes.

Not knowing how permeable the material is under your slab, which I'd
hope
is gravel, deep is the solution with the sump. Just as deep as is
practical.

Depending on your local aquifers, more than one sump may be the
ticket.

J

wrote:

The water should get to the pump, under the slab, before anything is
wet above.

Does this mean a french drain inside the basement doesn't make sense?
Or is it a backup thing (if the water does reach the floor)?

Arkadiy writes:

wrote:

The water should get to the pump, under the slab, before anything is
wet above.

Does this mean a french drain inside the basement doesn't make sense?
Or is it a backup thing (if the water does reach the floor)?

It doesn't mean that at all.
Water won't flow freely under all edges of the floor to the sump.
That's what the french drain does.

The pressure of the water against the cement causes the water
to come right thru the cement.
My basement used to form a puddle right in the middle of the floor
without running in from the sides.

Also you don't want to go too deep with the sump pump.
You'll end up trying to pump out the water table, wasting
electricity.

Dan Espen wrote:

Also you don't want to go too deep with the sump pump.
You'll end up trying to pump out the water table, wasting
electricity.

FWIW, I think my problem right now _is_ with the elevated water
table... otherwise where would water come from when there is no rain?

"Arkadiy" wrote in message
oups.com...
wrote:

The water should get to the pump, under the slab, before anything is
wet above.

Does this mean a french drain inside the basement doesn't make sense?
Or is it a backup thing (if the water does reach the floor)?

If you don't have drains you will create a dry area around the sump pump.
The water under your floor would rather go to the dry area then up through
your floor. Its ability to do that will vary with your soil. Drains make
it much easier for the water to get to the sump pump.

If you had continual problems, or if you suddenly developed a problem while
your neighbors were dry, drains would probably be worthwhile. But since the
problem happens every 20 years, I sure wouldn't want to spend $5000 to have
them put in. (actually, that sounds cheap and I would be concerned it was
too low) In fact, when you have this 20 year even it might flood whether
you have drains or not, OR it might not flood whether you have drains or
not.

Toller wrote:

If you don't have drains you will create a dry area around the sump pump.
The water under your floor would rather go to the dry area then up through
your floor. Its ability to do that will vary with your soil. Drains make
it much easier for the water to get to the sump pump.

By bringing the water up on to the basement floor or by collecting
water that is already on the basement floor?

On 30 Apr 2007 11:19:26 -0700, wrote:


The water should get to the pump, under the slab, before anything is
wet above.
Make the sump as deep as possible. In my case, in previous house, I
then
hand-formed mortar into sump-liner, with multiple entry holes.

Not knowing how permeable the material is under your slab, which I'd
hope
is gravel, deep is the solution with the sump. Just as deep as is
practical.

Depending on your local aquifers, more than one sump may be the
ticket.

If the sump is too deep, isn't there a possibility of getting to an
depth that is wet most of the time but isn't causing a problem for the
house?

My sump is so many inches deep but almost all the water comes in
though corrugated perforated pipe which was laid around the house
during construction, and those two pipes are about 8 inches above the
bottom of the sump. Maybe some water comes in through the bottom of
the sump, but not much, and I haven't noticed that any does. (I'd
have to be looking when nothing is coming in through the 2 4" pipes,
but it's still wet enough for water to seep in at the bottom.

Arkadiy writes:

Dan Espen wrote:

Also you don't want to go too deep with the sump pump.
You'll end up trying to pump out the water table, wasting
electricity.

FWIW, I think my problem right now _is_ with the elevated water
table... otherwise where would water come from when there is no rain?

Yes, but you don't want to pump more than you have to.
You can't pump a whole underground river out thru a 2 inch pipe.
I was respondiing to one of the other posters that seemed to be
suggesting solving the problem by just making the sump hole deeper.
That might work up to a point.

On Mon, 30 Apr 2007 21:21:54 -0400, Dan Espen
wrote:

Arkadiy writes:

Dan Espen wrote:

Also you don't want to go too deep with the sump pump.
You'll end up trying to pump out the water table, wasting
electricity.

FWIW, I think my problem right now _is_ with the elevated water
table... otherwise where would water come from when there is no rain?

To avoid communication problems in the futu
"Water table: the planar, underground surface beneath which earth
materials, as soil or rock, are saturated with water."

The other definition says "completely saturated"

So, you don't have an elevated water table when there is rain. You
have wet ground, or maybe some more specific term, from which water is
entering your house. But the water table doesn't go up with each rain
and down afterwards.

Here's more "The American Heritage Science Dictionary - water table
The upper surface of an area filled with groundwater, separating the
zone of aeration (the subsurface region of soil and rocks in which the
pores are filled with air and usually some water) from the zone of
saturation (the subsurface region in which the pores are filled only
with water). Water tables rise and fall with seasonal moisture, water
absorption by vegetation, and the withdrawal of groundwater from
wells, among other factors. The water table is not flat but has peaks
and valleys that generally conform to the overlying land surface.
Compare potentiometric surface. "

Yes, but you don't want to pump more than you have to.
You can't pump a whole underground river out thru a 2 inch pipe.
I was respondiing to one of the other posters that seemed to be
suggesting solving the problem by just making the sump hole deeper.
That might work up to a point.