I'd apprecaite some feedback on my plan for wiring electrical outlets
in my basement (which I'm in the process of finishing)...

I'm finishing about 2/3 of my basement with the remaining 1/3 being a
dedicated storage area. The perimeter of the finished area is about
180 feet and I'm planning on having about 20 recepticals. I will only
be using a fraction of the recepticals at any given time but I just
want to make sure I always have one in the spot I need it, so I'm
throwing in extra ones.

I plan on using 12-2 copper wire with a 20A breaker & 20A rated
outlets. At first I was considering using 14-2 with a 15A breaker but
I'm concerned about voltage drop over my relatively long 180foot run.
The extra cost and hassle of installing the 12-2 is something I don't
have any issues with so I decided to go that route. I'll be routing
the 12-2 through traditional wood frame 2x4 walls I have setup against
my poured concrete basement walls. I have already drilled 3/4 inch
holes in the studs.

I'm installing the outlets so that they are 18inches above the basement
floor and spaced less that 12feet apart (no more than 6feet from a
doorway). The routing of the wiring through the wall is at least
12inches above the outlets.

Any feedback on my plan? Anything I should look out for or consider?
Anything I should watch out for using 12-2 with a 20A breaker?

Thanks,
Kevin

I know GFCI's aren't required for finished basements, but my personal
preference is for them anywhere in a basement, even the finished part
(in my case it's one GFCI with the rest after it). I believe you are
correct in that you need to use the heavier gauge wire for that length
fo a run.

Basements can be dark. Run a seperate branch for lighting and receptacles,
so if you trip a breaker running a dehumidifier and a skill saw at the same
time, you are not fumbling in the dark. 12-2 is recommended for any
receptacles, #14 should be reserved for lighting IMO. You don't need to pay
extra for 20A receptacles, standard 15A plugs are fine (same for switches)
unless you are dedicating one to a 20A load like an air conditioner.

While you have the walls open, you have a chance to add ventilation for
radon if that is an issue






wrote in message
ups.com...
I'd apprecaite some feedback on my plan for wiring electrical outlets
in my basement (which I'm in the process of finishing)...

I'm finishing about 2/3 of my basement with the remaining 1/3 being a
dedicated storage area. The perimeter of the finished area is about
180 feet and I'm planning on having about 20 recepticals. I will only
be using a fraction of the recepticals at any given time but I just
want to make sure I always have one in the spot I need it, so I'm
throwing in extra ones.

I plan on using 12-2 copper wire with a 20A breaker & 20A rated
outlets. At first I was considering using 14-2 with a 15A breaker but
I'm concerned about voltage drop over my relatively long 180foot run.
The extra cost and hassle of installing the 12-2 is something I don't
have any issues with so I decided to go that route. I'll be routing
the 12-2 through traditional wood frame 2x4 walls I have setup against
my poured concrete basement walls. I have already drilled 3/4 inch
holes in the studs.

I'm installing the outlets so that they are 18inches above the basement
floor and spaced less that 12feet apart (no more than 6feet from a
doorway). The routing of the wiring through the wall is at least
12inches above the outlets.

Any feedback on my plan? Anything I should look out for or consider?
Anything I should watch out for using 12-2 with a 20A breaker?

Thanks,
Kevin

wrote in message
ups.com...
I'd apprecaite some feedback on my plan for wiring electrical outlets
in my basement (which I'm in the process of finishing)...

I'm finishing about 2/3 of my basement with the remaining 1/3 being a
dedicated storage area. The perimeter of the finished area is about
180 feet and I'm planning on having about 20 recepticals. I will only
be using a fraction of the recepticals at any given time but I just
want to make sure I always have one in the spot I need it, so I'm
throwing in extra ones.

I plan on using 12-2 copper wire with a 20A breaker & 20A rated
outlets. At first I was considering using 14-2 with a 15A breaker but
I'm concerned about voltage drop over my relatively long 180foot run.
The extra cost and hassle of installing the 12-2 is something I don't
have any issues with so I decided to go that route. I'll be routing
the 12-2 through traditional wood frame 2x4 walls I have setup against
my poured concrete basement walls. I have already drilled 3/4 inch
holes in the studs.

I'm installing the outlets so that they are 18inches above the basement
floor and spaced less that 12feet apart (no more than 6feet from a
doorway). The routing of the wiring through the wall is at least
12inches above the outlets.

Any feedback on my plan? Anything I should look out for or consider?
Anything I should watch out for using 12-2 with a 20A breaker?

Thanks,
Kevin


You may want to check code but I don't think you can put 20 receptacles on
one circuit regardless of how many you don't plan to use. I know my local
code here says no more than 10 "devices" on a single circuit (a receptacle
being a single device), regardless of what amperage it's rated for (15 or
20). I'm no code expert but thought I'd mention this as something for you
to research!
Cheers,
cc

wrote in message ups.com...
I'd apprecaite some feedback on my plan for wiring electrical outlets
in my basement (which I'm in the process of finishing)...

I'm finishing about 2/3 of my basement with the remaining 1/3 being a
dedicated storage area. The perimeter of the finished area is about
180 feet and I'm planning on having about 20 recepticals. I will only
be using a fraction of the recepticals at any given time but I just
want to make sure I always have one in the spot I need it, so I'm
throwing in extra ones.

I plan on using 12-2 copper wire with a 20A breaker & 20A rated
outlets.

I'd certainly use more than one line/breaker for that many recepticals.

Every receptical on my main floor is on one breaker. I can't run the microwave
and vacuum cleaner at the same time. That's one future project.

Bob

Thanks for your feedback guys. I forgot to mention that the lighting
will be on a sepearate 15A circuit (the circuit is already there si I
will just use it as is with a couple more lights added to it.

CC-
I will check into the number of outlets, but research I have done thus
far has not indicated any limit except for in non-residential
(commercial) applications.

I'll probably stick with the 20A outlets just incase. I can't imagine
using anything in my basement that will draw that much but the price
for the capability isn't that great.

scott21-
With regard to the GFCI... are you recommending that I place one GFCI
at the front of my cable run with the rest being conventional outlets?

Bob-
I feel your pain with your breaker problem! My microwave is somehow on
the same circuit as my kitchen & dining room lights as well as my
outdoor landscape lighting. Every once in a while If I have them all
on, the microwave will cause the breaker to kick. I need to check if a
15A circuit was used...the run is pretty long so maybe the current draw
is higher because of the current drop as well. One of these days I'm
going to run a dedicated line for that microwave.

In my basement, I don't see anything more than a TV or stereo,
computer, & refridgerator going at the same time so I'm pretty sure
I'll be safe with the 20A circuit (especially with the lights on their
own circuit).

Any and all feedback is appreciated!

Thanks,
Kevin

You are correct about the number of outlets on a circuit. In residential
wiring you need a 15 amp circuit for each 600 square feet . In commercial
wiring it's 1.5 amps per outlet


wrote in message
ups.com...
Thanks for your feedback guys. I forgot to mention that the lighting
will be on a sepearate 15A circuit (the circuit is already there si I
will just use it as is with a couple more lights added to it.

CC-
I will check into the number of outlets, but research I have done thus
far has not indicated any limit except for in non-residential
(commercial) applications.

I'll probably stick with the 20A outlets just incase. I can't imagine
using anything in my basement that will draw that much but the price
for the capability isn't that great.

scott21-
With regard to the GFCI... are you recommending that I place one GFCI
at the front of my cable run with the rest being conventional outlets?

Bob-
I feel your pain with your breaker problem! My microwave is somehow on
the same circuit as my kitchen & dining room lights as well as my
outdoor landscape lighting. Every once in a while If I have them all
on, the microwave will cause the breaker to kick. I need to check if a
15A circuit was used...the run is pretty long so maybe the current draw
is higher because of the current drop as well. One of these days I'm
going to run a dedicated line for that microwave.

In my basement, I don't see anything more than a TV or stereo,
computer, & refridgerator going at the same time so I'm pretty sure
I'll be safe with the 20A circuit (especially with the lights on their
own circuit).

Any and all feedback is appreciated!

Thanks,
Kevin

If you use 12-3 wire and a double breaker instead, you can easily wire each
of those 20 receptacles so that the top plug is one branch and the bottom is
another branch. Additional cost and labor is trivial.

You may not see much more than a TV, stereo and a few lights down there but
a future owner might see a workshop or an excercise room with many heavy
loads (tredmill, tanning lamp, dehumidifier, fans, space heater) .







"RBM" rbm2(remove wrote in message
...
You are correct about the number of outlets on a circuit. In residential
wiring you need a 15 amp circuit for each 600 square feet . In commercial
wiring it's 1.5 amps per outlet


wrote in message
ups.com...
Thanks for your feedback guys. I forgot to mention that the lighting
will be on a sepearate 15A circuit (the circuit is already there si I
will just use it as is with a couple more lights added to it.

CC-
I will check into the number of outlets, but research I have done thus
far has not indicated any limit except for in non-residential
(commercial) applications.

I'll probably stick with the 20A outlets just incase. I can't imagine
using anything in my basement that will draw that much but the price
for the capability isn't that great.

scott21-
With regard to the GFCI... are you recommending that I place one GFCI
at the front of my cable run with the rest being conventional outlets?

Bob-
I feel your pain with your breaker problem! My microwave is somehow on
the same circuit as my kitchen & dining room lights as well as my
outdoor landscape lighting. Every once in a while If I have them all
on, the microwave will cause the breaker to kick. I need to check if a
15A circuit was used...the run is pretty long so maybe the current draw
is higher because of the current drop as well. One of these days I'm
going to run a dedicated line for that microwave.

In my basement, I don't see anything more than a TV or stereo,
computer, & refridgerator going at the same time so I'm pretty sure
I'll be safe with the 20A circuit (especially with the lights on their
own circuit).

Any and all feedback is appreciated!

Thanks,
Kevin

yeah DONT cheap out add a extra breaker!!

If your breaker cabinet is full you can get 1/2 width breakers to
increase the number.

you also want to consider ethernet, phone, satellite or cable to runs.

i would protect hopefully the 2 20 amp outlet runs each with a GFCI or
GFCI breaker. home inspectors here make the lkack of them in a basement
a big issue... came up selling a home recently.......

Thanks a lot for the double breaker & 12-3 wire suggestion. I think I
will definitely go that route as I have room in my box for it!! Time
to take out my book and read up on that.

I greatly appreciate everybody's feedback!

kevin

In article et,
PipeDown wrote:
If you use 12-3 wire and a double breaker instead, you can easily wire each
of those 20 receptacles so that the top plug is one branch and the bottom is
another branch. Additional cost and labor is trivial.


Better yet, alternate phases between boxes, but don't split the outlets
within the box unless you decide to add some switched outlets, in which
case you could split an outlet for the switch leg. If you do add switched
outlets, do it as part of a quad box, so that there are at least two
unswitched outlets in the box.

If you know you are going to have a fridge/freezer, add a dedicated 20a
circuit for it.

one less obvious point, add an outlet somewhere near the door where you would
never consider putting any furniture (and thus covering the outlet) for the
vaccum cleaner. could be on a narrow wall, or in the box with the switches.



You may not see much more than a TV, stereo and a few lights down there but
a future owner might see a workshop or an excercise room with many heavy
loads (tredmill, tanning lamp, dehumidifier, fans, space heater) .



I would figure on at least 4 circuits.. 2 staggered along the wall,
1 for the fridge, and 1 for lighting.



--
-- Welcome My Son, Welcome To The Machine --
Bob Vaughan | techie @ tantivy.net |
| P.O. Box 19792, Stanford, Ca 94309 |
-- I am Me, I am only Me, And no one else is Me, What could be simpler? --

In oups.com,
wrote:
Thanks a lot for the double breaker & 12-3 wire suggestion. I think
I will definitely go that route as I have room in my box for it!!
Time to take out my book and read up on that.

Why not take your final plans to show the electrical inspector when you get
your permit (you ARE getting a permit, right???). They can point out things
you missed or make suggestions. It's better than having him/her point out
poblems after the job's done.

"You have to have an outlet with six feet of a door."

"That's a closet. The sump pump is in there."

"You have to have an outlet with six feet of a door."

"Yes, sir." ("Three bags full, sir...")

The outlet's there today. Thanks to Wiremold.
--
Jim
"Remember, an amateur built the Ark; professionals built the Titanic."

wrote in message
ups.com...
I'd apprecaite some feedback on my plan for wiring electrical outlets
in my basement (which I'm in the process of finishing)...

I'm finishing about 2/3 of my basement with the remaining 1/3 being a
dedicated storage area. The perimeter of the finished area is about
180 feet and I'm planning on having about 20 recepticals. I will only
be using a fraction of the recepticals at any given time but I just
want to make sure I always have one in the spot I need it, so I'm
throwing in extra ones.

I plan on using 12-2 copper wire with a 20A breaker & 20A rated
outlets. At first I was considering using 14-2 with a 15A breaker but
I'm concerned about voltage drop over my relatively long 180foot run.
The extra cost and hassle of installing the 12-2 is something I don't
have any issues with so I decided to go that route. I'll be routing
the 12-2 through traditional wood frame 2x4 walls I have setup against
my poured concrete basement walls. I have already drilled 3/4 inch
holes in the studs.

I'm installing the outlets so that they are 18inches above the basement
floor and spaced less that 12feet apart (no more than 6feet from a
doorway). The routing of the wiring through the wall is at least
12inches above the outlets.

Any feedback on my plan? Anything I should look out for or consider?
Anything I should watch out for using 12-2 with a 20A breaker?

Thanks,
Kevin


I concur that you should have more than one receptacle circuit. I would
also put the refrigerator on its own circuit. Here in New Jersey it is
required to have at least one GFI receptacle in the unfinished space and it
is also a requirement to have a three way switch at the top and bottom of
the basement stairs for the lights near and over the stairs. We are also
required to have a ceiling mounted interconnected smoke detector within
three feet of the bottom step of the basement stairs. You should also have
a GFI receptacle near the furnace/air conditioning/water heater space for
servicing purposes.

You might also want to install cable TV and phone jacks in a few places.


John Grabowski
http://www.mrelectrician.tv

wrote in message oups.com...
Thanks a lot for the double breaker & 12-3 wire suggestion. I think I
will definitely go that route as I have room in my box for it!! Time
to take out my book and read up on that.

I greatly appreciate everybody's feedback!

Be aware that having both phases in one box means there is a 240 volt shock
hazard when working in that box. I would choose to not mix phases.

Running 2-4 wires from the breaker box is really easy at this point.
Adding them later is not. Don't scrimp on wire when it's so easy to add more
circuits. When you use a portable heater, buy a treadmill or power saw , etc. you
might be glad.

Bob

I'd run 12-3 and put every other outlet on a circuit. Two circuits, and
you'll never have a problem. Use a 20A double pole breaker. Be sure to
pigtail out when you land the outlets.

--
Steve Barker



wrote in message
ups.com...
Any feedback on my plan? Anything I should look out for or consider?
Anything I should watch out for using 12-2 with a 20A breaker?

Thanks,
Kevin

No more than 10 plug ins on circuit. Plug ins no further than 6 feet
apart.

You need more plug ins (180 lineal feet divided by 6' = nominal 30 plug
ins.)

--
Jim McLaughlin

Reply address is deliberately munged.
If you really need to reply directly, try:
jimdotmclaughlinatcomcastdotcom

And you know it is a dotnet not a dotcom
address.
wrote in message
ups.com...
I'd apprecaite some feedback on my plan for wiring electrical outlets
in my basement (which I'm in the process of finishing)...

I'm finishing about 2/3 of my basement with the remaining 1/3 being a
dedicated storage area. The perimeter of the finished area is about
180 feet and I'm planning on having about 20 recepticals. I will only
be using a fraction of the recepticals at any given time but I just
want to make sure I always have one in the spot I need it, so I'm
throwing in extra ones.

I plan on using 12-2 copper wire with a 20A breaker & 20A rated
outlets. At first I was considering using 14-2 with a 15A breaker but
I'm concerned about voltage drop over my relatively long 180foot run.
The extra cost and hassle of installing the 12-2 is something I don't
have any issues with so I decided to go that route. I'll be routing
the 12-2 through traditional wood frame 2x4 walls I have setup against
my poured concrete basement walls. I have already drilled 3/4 inch
holes in the studs.

I'm installing the outlets so that they are 18inches above the basement
floor and spaced less that 12feet apart (no more than 6feet from a
doorway). The routing of the wiring through the wall is at least
12inches above the outlets.

Any feedback on my plan? Anything I should look out for or consider?
Anything I should watch out for using 12-2 with a 20A breaker?

Thanks,
Kevin

You are misinterpreting two separate rules



"Jim McLaughlin" jim.mclaughlin wrote in message
. ..
No more than 10 plug ins on circuit. Plug ins no further than 6 feet
apart.

You need more plug ins (180 lineal feet divided by 6' = nominal 30 plug
ins.)

--
Jim McLaughlin

Reply address is deliberately munged.
If you really need to reply directly, try:
jimdotmclaughlinatcomcastdotcom

And you know it is a dotnet not a dotcom
address.
wrote in message
ups.com...
I'd apprecaite some feedback on my plan for wiring electrical outlets
in my basement (which I'm in the process of finishing)...

I'm finishing about 2/3 of my basement with the remaining 1/3 being a
dedicated storage area. The perimeter of the finished area is about
180 feet and I'm planning on having about 20 recepticals. I will only
be using a fraction of the recepticals at any given time but I just
want to make sure I always have one in the spot I need it, so I'm
throwing in extra ones.

I plan on using 12-2 copper wire with a 20A breaker & 20A rated
outlets. At first I was considering using 14-2 with a 15A breaker but
I'm concerned about voltage drop over my relatively long 180foot run.
The extra cost and hassle of installing the 12-2 is something I don't
have any issues with so I decided to go that route. I'll be routing
the 12-2 through traditional wood frame 2x4 walls I have setup against
my poured concrete basement walls. I have already drilled 3/4 inch
holes in the studs.

I'm installing the outlets so that they are 18inches above the basement
floor and spaced less that 12feet apart (no more than 6feet from a
doorway). The routing of the wiring through the wall is at least
12inches above the outlets.

Any feedback on my plan? Anything I should look out for or consider?
Anything I should watch out for using 12-2 with a 20A breaker?

Thanks,
Kevin

a 10 receptable per breaker is good common sense rule.

espically if you ever lived in a home like mine where way too many
outlets were on the same circuit.

hey turn the fan and blender off so i can turn on the floodlight to put
out the garbage

I have upgraded endlessely to fix such issues....

On Wed, 10 May 2006 23:34:39 +0000 (UTC),
(Bob Vaughan) wrote:

In article et,
PipeDown wrote:
If you use 12-3 wire and a double breaker instead, you can easily wire each
of those 20 receptacles so that the top plug is one branch and the bottom is
another branch. Additional cost and labor is trivial.


Better yet, alternate phases between boxes, but don't split the outlets
within the box unless you decide to add some switched outlets, in which
case you could split an outlet for the switch leg. If you do add switched
outlets, do it as part of a quad box, so that there are at least two
unswitched outlets in the box.

If you know you are going to have a fridge/freezer, add a dedicated 20a
circuit for it.

one less obvious point, add an outlet somewhere near the door where you would
never consider putting any furniture (and thus covering the outlet) for the
vaccum cleaner. could be on a narrow wall, or in the box with the switches.



That's important. When I want to plug something in temporarily (like
the vacuum cleaner), I'd like an outlet that isn't HIDDEN. Maybe even
one at the height used for switches (easier to reach).


You may not see much more than a TV, stereo and a few lights down there but
a future owner might see a workshop or an excercise room with many heavy
loads (tredmill, tanning lamp, dehumidifier, fans, space heater) .



I would figure on at least 4 circuits.. 2 staggered along the wall,
1 for the fridge, and 1 for lighting.
--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what
to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb
contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin

On Wed, 10 May 2006 23:34:39 +0000 (UTC),
(Bob Vaughan) wrote:

In article et,
PipeDown wrote:
If you use 12-3 wire and a double breaker instead, you can easily wire each
of those 20 receptacles so that the top plug is one branch and the bottom is
another branch. Additional cost and labor is trivial.


Better yet, alternate phases between boxes, but don't split the outlets
within the box unless you decide to add some switched outlets, in which

This isn't better. The way most people use rooms, the power
hungry equipment tends to clump together, so you want
as many DIFFERENT legs accessible at each power-access-point
as you can conveniently manage.

case you could split an outlet for the switch leg. If you do add switched
outlets, do it as part of a quad box, so that there are at least two
unswitched outlets in the box.

Ok, that I like. Quad boxes, 2 outlets on one phase, one on the
other, and the last on the second phase, but switched. MARK
them.

On Wed, 10 May 2006 20:37:44 -0700, "Jim McLaughlin" jim.mclaughlin
wrote:

No more than 10 plug ins on circuit. Plug ins no further than 6 feet
apart.

There is no logical reason for a limit on the number of recepticals
on a circut, nor was it, (last version I checked) in the NEC. The
only general requirement for the number of circuts falls out of the
requirement for 3watts/sqft of available power, and the limit of
20A per circut.

OTOH, there's no such thing as too much available power,
and it's a whole lot cheaper to run circuts all at the same
time than to come back and add another one.

" writes:
What do you mean when you say: "Be sure to pigtail out when you land
the outlets." ?
I think they mean: before installing the outlet, install a 6" wire to
the receptacle connectors. Then, connect *that* to the box wiring.
This gives you extra pull out room and lets you leave the box
wiring mostly alone for swaping the unit out. Probably has some other
benefits as well.

You might have to use larger boxes to handle the extra wire.

--
May no harm befall you,
flip
Ich habe keine Ahnung was das bedeutet, oder vielleicht doch?
In my email replace SeeEmmYou.EeeDeeYou with CMU.EDU

According to Goedjn :
On Wed, 10 May 2006 23:34:39 +0000 (UTC),
(Bob Vaughan) wrote:

Better yet, alternate phases between boxes, but don't split the outlets
within the box unless you decide to add some switched outlets, in which

This isn't better. The way most people use rooms, the power
hungry equipment tends to clump together, so you want
as many DIFFERENT legs accessible at each power-access-point
as you can conveniently manage.

I'd agree with you with a kitchen, workshop or utility room. Up til
very recently (with the advent of GFCI requirements) Canadian electrical
code _required_ kitchen counter outlets to be _both_ split, and alternating
which receptacle box each cable fed (max two boxes per circuit).

Meaning that at any point on the counter between two receptacle boxes, you
have _4_ 15A circuits available within 4'.

I did that in my workshop counter outlets too.

However, in general living space, eg: a rec room, it's not likely to be
critical.

But if you have the slots, it never hurts.
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

Other than allowing the rest of the circuit to function if one of the
outlets dies, what's the benefit to pigtailing the outlets rather than
running them all in series ? Is pigtailing the outlets absolutely
required if using 12/3 with a double pole breaker and alternating
outlets between the two circuits (i.e. outlet1=circuit1,
outlet2=circuit2, outlet3=circuit1 etc. )

If I do pigtail the outlets to the main 12/3 line going around my
basement, where's the appropriate location for the pigtail connections
relative to the main line? Putting the pigtail connection above the
box, between two joists, and surrounded by fiberglass insulation
doesn't seem correct to me.

Also, it seems that the physical connection using the terminal screws
on the outlets would be stronger than the connection provided by a
wirenut. Thoughts on that??

Thanks,
Kevin

According to :
Other than allowing the rest of the circuit to function if one of the
outlets dies, what's the benefit to pigtailing the outlets rather than
running them all in series ? Is pigtailing the outlets absolutely
required if using 12/3 with a double pole breaker and alternating
outlets between the two circuits (i.e. outlet1=circuit1,
outlet2=circuit2, outlet3=circuit1 etc. )

Code requires you to pigtail multi-wire branch neutrals ALWAYS.
The idea being that if you remove a device, pigtailing means it's
less likely that something bad happens downstream.

Eg: losing a neutral on a split circuit can be quite catastrophic.
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

Thanks a lot. Pigtailing it is, then!

By pigtailing you avoid the chance that a loose connection on any one outlet
would affect the downstream outlets. It is especially important when using
12-3 to pigtail the neutrals. This way if you have to replace an outlet,
you don't "open" your neutral circuit to the downstream outlets. It's just
good practice to never use the outlet as a connection by putting 4 wires on
it.

--
Steve Barker


wrote in message
oups.com...
What do you mean when you say: "Be sure to pigtail out when you land
the outlets." ?

I'm looking at a wiring diagram in my DIY book and I think I see what
you're talking about. But, what's the purpose of the pigtails? They
don't look like they perform any function..

It's not a rule, it's a preference. When I wired houses, I typically
installed seven on a 15 amp circuit



wrote in message
ups.com...
a 10 receptable per breaker is good common sense rule.

espically if you ever lived in a home like mine where way too many
outlets were on the same circuit.

hey turn the fan and blender off so i can turn on the floodlight to put
out the garbage

I have upgraded endlessely to fix such issues....

It's perfectly fine to install four wires on a receptacle, it is however
illegal to have a neutral in a three wire Edison circuit dependent upon a
device


"Steve Barker LT" wrote in message
...
By pigtailing you avoid the chance that a loose connection on any one
outlet would affect the downstream outlets. It is especially important
when using 12-3 to pigtail the neutrals. This way if you have to replace
an outlet, you don't "open" your neutral circuit to the downstream
outlets. It's just good practice to never use the outlet as a connection
by putting 4 wires on it.

--
Steve Barker


wrote in message
oups.com...
What do you mean when you say: "Be sure to pigtail out when you land
the outlets." ?

I'm looking at a wiring diagram in my DIY book and I think I see what
you're talking about. But, what's the purpose of the pigtails? They
don't look like they perform any function..

Yes, fine. But not recommended.

--
Steve Barker


"RBM" rbm2(remove wrote in message
...
It's perfectly fine to install four wires on a receptacle, it is however
illegal to have a neutral in a three wire Edison circuit dependent upon a
device


"Steve Barker LT" wrote in message
...
By pigtailing you avoid the chance that a loose connection on any one
outlet would affect the downstream outlets. It is especially important
when using 12-3 to pigtail the neutrals. This way if you have to replace
an outlet, you don't "open" your neutral circuit to the downstream
outlets. It's just good practice to never use the outlet as a connection
by putting 4 wires on it.

--
Steve Barker


wrote in message
oups.com...
What do you mean when you say: "Be sure to pigtail out when you land
the outlets." ?

I'm looking at a wiring diagram in my DIY book and I think I see what
you're talking about. But, what's the purpose of the pigtails? They
don't look like they perform any function..

Steve Barker LT wrote:
I'd run 12-3 and put every other outlet on a circuit. Two circuits, and
you'll never have a problem. Use a 20A double pole breaker. Be sure to
pigtail out when you land the outlets.

Yes - This is the way I would do it too!

Inviato da X-Privat.Org - Registrazione gratuita http://www.x-privat.org/join.php

wrote in message
ups.com...

stuff snipped

If I do pigtail the outlets to the main 12/3 line going around my
basement, where's the appropriate location for the pigtail connections
relative to the main line? Putting the pigtail connection above the
box, between two joists, and surrounded by fiberglass insulation
doesn't seem correct to me.

All connections have to be made *inside* the box to prevent sparks from
igniting any material inside the wall cavities. If you're going to pigtail,
it would be a good idea to use extra deep outlet boxes to accommodate the
wire nuts that will be needed.

Personally, I'd not bother for two reasons. If you decide to use some sort
of automated outlet or dimmer switch, you'll find they are much larger than
standard switches and outlets and you'll be facing a very tight fit if
you've got three wirenuts to account for.

Also, if you wire through the back of the outlets and one outlet dies, it
may take the rest of the string with them but that's not such a bad thing.
It will tell you with a high degree of certainty which outlet needs
attention: the one that's failed closest to the main breakers.

Also, it seems that the physical connection using the terminal screws
on the outlets would be stronger than the connection provided by a
wirenut. Thoughts on that??

I suspect some of the replies you got were assuming you'd use the "backstab"
connections on the outlets. IMHO, those are quick and dirty and far more
likely to fail than either wire nuts or terminal screws. I just repaired
one for a friend whose disposal first became intermittent and then failed
completely. The outlet that it drew power from had been badly "backstabbed"
and the connection became loose. As soon as she told me that there was
another kitchen outlet that was flaky, I realized what the problem was.

Whatever you decide, make sure your wire stripping is clean and without
nicks. The failure point for outlets and switches, at least in my
experience, always seems to be at the point where the copper was nicked by
the stripper.

--
Bobby G.

In ,
Robert Green wrote:

I suspect some of the replies you got were assuming you'd use the
"backstab" connections on the outlets. IMHO, those are quick and
dirty and far more likely to fail than either wire nuts or terminal
screws. I just repaired one for a friend whose disposal first became
intermittent and then failed completely. The outlet that it drew
power from had been badly "backstabbed" and the connection became
loose. As soon as she told me that there was another kitchen outlet
that was flaky, I realized what the problem was.

You friend was lucky. Our house had all (orignall) outlets backstabbed. One
in the family room burned up for some unkown reason (short? arc?). Our
insurance company not only paid for the repair of the 3' x 3' hole the
firefighters had to make in the dry wall to make sure the small insulation
fire was out, but they paid to have an electrican replace that outlet AND
rewire every other outlet in the house to use the terminal screws.
--
Jim
"Remember, an amateur built the Ark; professionals built the Titanic."

In oups.com,
wrote:
What do you mean when you say: "Be sure to pigtail out when you
land the outlets." ?

I'm looking at a wiring diagram in my DIY book and I think I see what
you're talking about. But, what's the purpose of the pigtails? They
don't look like they perform any function..

Instead of "daisy chaining" the outlet with the supply going to one screw
and the downstream loand going to the other, you connect the supply, load,
and a small "pigtail" wire together with a wirenut and then wire the pigtail
to a screw on the outlet.

This is especially important for the neutral on a 3 wire "Edison" type
circuit where you have 2 hots and a netrual e.g., 12-3, in the box. In this
case you really have 2 circuits (opposite phases, usually black and red
sharing the same white netural wire. The reason this works is because the
worst case is one circuit (say, the red wire) is fully loaded and the other
one (back wire) is unused. Then you have the same current in the white wire
as the red one which is OK. As you begin to add load to the black wire, the
opposing phase current in the white wire actually cancels out the other and
you have less current in the neutral (white) wire. If both hot wires carried
exactly the same load, there would be NO current in the neutral.

If one of the outlets is removed or fails or a connection comes loose, and
the neutral is not pigtailed, the downstream outlets will suddenly have 240v
across them and be wired in series. Light bulbs turn blue and go pop; other
devices fail in more spectacular ways.

Originally, our house not only had several of these circuits with no
pigtails, but the neutral wires were backstabbed into the outlets. My skin
crawls just thinking about it. It's all been converted now.
--
Jim
"Remember, an amateur built the Ark; professionals built the Titanic."

Yes...I'll definitely be pigtailing!!

Thanks for the feedback!

Kevin

"Steve Barker LT" wrote in message

By pigtailing you avoid the chance that a loose connection on any one
outlet
would affect the downstream outlets. It is especially important when
using
12-3 to pigtail the neutrals. This way if you have to replace an outlet,
you don't "open" your neutral circuit to the downstream outlets.

If you had to replace an outlet, you'd have the breaker off at the panel,
wouldn't you? Why would you care what happened downstream on a dead circuit
branch?

I looked in a recent addition of "Wiring Simplified" and they show
pigtailing only when the wire feeding the outlet box goes on to another
circuit, and not just the string of outlets. They clearly show a string of
outlets connected by the two pairs of screws on each side. Their only
caveat is that code prohibits more than one wire under a screw terminal.
That just means you have no choice but to continue the string of outlets
until the end and not wire in any other devices. If they were wrong, I
would have hoped someone would have noticed by the 38th edition. :-)

I ask because in the new home construction I've encountered, not only were
the outlets chained together, they were backstabbed together. Now that's
asking for trouble, but for a different reason. Those connections can
vibrate loose and if they're on an outside wall, they can work loose by
expansion and contraction.

It's just good practice to never use the outlet as a connection by
putting 4 wires on it.

From what I've seen adding more connections to the outlet box doesn't
increase reliability. If you pigtail you've got two extra "three wires to
one wire nut" connections for each outlet. I've come across more than one
"three wire nut" that's got one wire popped out of it.

It takes strong hands and a good eye to cut, strip and twist three stiff
wires into a nut that will survive repacking into the back of the box. It's
not a problem for an electrical pro, but for people doing their own electric
al work, it seems a lot easier and lot more reliable if they just daisy
chain the outlets using the screw terminals.

I'm still not clear on why it would be preferable for even an electrician to
make three connections (pigtail) when he could just as easily make only two
(pass-thru), especially when we're talking about a string of outlets on a
dedicate breaker. What am I missing?

--
Bobby G.

In my case, i think the problem is that the neutral wire is shared
between the two alternating circuits. So if the continuity of the
neutral circuit is interrupted because of a bad outlet or something,
pigtailing will avoid that problem. Anyway, that's my take. Both my
Black & Decker DIY books show pigtailing and thats the recommendation I
see in these groups so that's with I'M gonna do. :-)

Kevin

According to :
In my case, i think the problem is that the neutral wire is shared
between the two alternating circuits. So if the continuity of the
neutral circuit is interrupted because of a bad outlet or something,
pigtailing will avoid that problem. Anyway, that's my take. Both my
Black & Decker DIY books show pigtailing and thats the recommendation I
see in these groups so that's with I'M gonna do. :-)

It's code requirement here for shared neutrals.
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

According to Robert Green :
"Steve Barker LT" wrote in message

By pigtailing you avoid the chance that a loose connection on any one
outlet
would affect the downstream outlets. It is especially important when
using
12-3 to pigtail the neutrals. This way if you have to replace an outlet,
you don't "open" your neutral circuit to the downstream outlets.

If you had to replace an outlet, you'd have the breaker off at the panel,
wouldn't you? Why would you care what happened downstream on a dead circuit
branch?

It's not uncommon to see shared neutral circuits to not be tiebarred
together in the panel. Someone naively turning off one breaker, and
pulling out the outlet breaking the neutral (he doesn't get zapped
unless something is live and pulling power on the other leg) can
result in rather nasty things happening. Especially if the first
breaker is turned back on. That downstream may not really be dead
in a shared neutral.

It happened often enough for our code to require neutral pigtails
at least on shared neutral circuits. As yours does.
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

" wrote in message
ups.com...
In my case, i think the problem is that the neutral wire is shared
between the two alternating circuits. So if the continuity of the
neutral circuit is interrupted because of a bad outlet or something,
pigtailing will avoid that problem. Anyway, that's my take. Both my
Black & Decker DIY books show pigtailing and thats the recommendation I
see in these groups so that's with I'M gonna do. :-)

I like pigtailing daisy-chained devices, mainly to avoid the wrestling
getting the device into or flush with the box. 4 or 5 short stiff 12-gauge
wires can be quite uncooperative to fold up and tuck into a small space. And
on some lamp bases I recently hung in the basement, the screw tabs for the
wires were flimsy enough that they wanted to bend with 4 wires attached. I
did the pigtails, folded the feedwires and nuts up tight into the box, and
only had to deal with 2 wires when pushing everything up into place. Much
easier.

aem sends...