Hi Everyone,

This question has probably been asked a zillion times before, but I
thought I'd ask since the market is always changing. We're looking at
possibly building a house in a few years, and we're thinking of first
finding an acre or two someplace and buying it now with the hope of
paying it off rather quickly (3-4 years) then starting construction of
a house afterwards. My question is that if we spend those years
researching the in's and out's of building a house, talk to local
folks, etc, would it be possible for us to basically build the house
without a general contractor?

I honestly don't know alot beyond general house repairs and
construction, plus what I've read in Handyman Magazine and seen on
television, but I'd like to think if I spent the time it'll take to
pay off/down the properly I can self-educate myself to contract the
house myself and save some money... plus possibly get involved in
building the house to some degree to cut corners.

Is this common to do or maybe majorly not suggested?

Thanks for any suggestions or ideas in this re guard, and take care --

Alex

In article .com,
"Alex" wrote:

This question has probably been asked a zillion times before, but I
thought I'd ask since the market is always changing. We're looking at
possibly building a house in a few years, and we're thinking of first
finding an acre or two someplace and buying it now with the hope of
paying it off rather quickly (3-4 years) then starting construction of
a house afterwards. My question is that if we spend those years
researching the in's and out's of building a house, talk to local
folks, etc, would it be possible for us to basically build the house
without a general contractor?

It is possible, but why would you want to do that? A contractor
is going to be able to get everything at wholesale prices, then
they charge you a markup. You will pay retail, then have to do
a lot of work just to get that.

Subs are going to want to work with contractors since a contractor
can give them job after job. No sub is going to go out of their
way to work for you since you are just one job, and you are a pain
in the butt since you don't know how things are supposed to work.

Finally, few banks are going to want to deal with you. They know
that do-it-yourself contractors are just are just like do-it-
yourself brain surgeons--a plan for disaster.

-john-

--
================================================== ====================
John A. Weeks III 952-432-2708
Newave Communications http://www.johnweeks.com
================================================== ====================

willshak wrote:
Alex wrote:
Hi Everyone,

This question has probably been asked a zillion times before, but I
thought I'd ask since the market is always changing. We're looking at
possibly building a house in a few years, and we're thinking of first
finding an acre or two someplace and buying it now with the hope of
paying it off rather quickly (3-4 years) then starting construction of
a house afterwards. My question is that if we spend those years
researching the in's and out's of building a house, talk to local
folks, etc, would it be possible for us to basically build the house
without a general contractor?

I honestly don't know alot beyond general house repairs and
construction, plus what I've read in Handyman Magazine and seen on
television, but I'd like to think if I spent the time it'll take to
pay off/down the properly I can self-educate myself to contract the
house myself and save some money... plus possibly get involved in
building the house to some degree to cut corners.

Is this common to do or maybe majorly not suggested?

Thanks for any suggestions or ideas in this re guard, and take care --

Alex



Do what I did. Find a GC that needs a worker. Do the work at minimum
wage until you learn. Then ask the GC to build your house. Work for the
GS while building your house.


--
Bill
I am a peripheral visionary.
I can see the future, but it is off to the side.
Steven Wright

"Alex" wrote:

My question is that if we spend those years
researching the in's and out's of building a house, talk to local
folks, etc, would it be possible for us to basically build the house
without a general contractor?

Is it possible? Sure. Is it advisable? No. There are so many reasons it's hard
to know where to begin.

- You won't know which subs are reliable and which ones haven't a clue.
- You won't know how to catch the mistakes the subs are making or the shortcuts
they'll take when they realize you haven't a clue.
- You won't get access to the good subs because they're busy working for
contractors that will send followon work their way.

A friend of mine bought an owner built house and regrets it to this day. He is
constantly dealing with repairs to improper construction and non-standard
parts/construction techniques.

willshak wrote:

Do what I did. Find a GC that needs a worker. Do the work at minimum
wage until you learn. Then ask the GC to build your house. Work for the
GS while building your house.

That's an interesting way to do it. I'd never heard that one before
and it does make a lot of sense. Of course each person would have to
work out the feasibility based on their current job and earnings to
see if it made financial sense for them.

R

Alex wrote:
Hi Everyone,

This question has probably been asked a zillion times before, but I
thought I'd ask since the market is always changing. We're looking at
possibly building a house in a few years, and we're thinking of first
finding an acre or two someplace and buying it now with the hope of
paying it off rather quickly (3-4 years) then starting construction of
a house afterwards. My question is that if we spend those years
researching the in's and out's of building a house, talk to local
folks, etc, would it be possible for us to basically build the house
without a general contractor?

I honestly don't know alot beyond general house repairs and
construction, plus what I've read in Handyman Magazine and seen on
television, but I'd like to think if I spent the time it'll take to
pay off/down the properly I can self-educate myself to contract the
house myself and save some money... plus possibly get involved in
building the house to some degree to cut corners.

Is this common to do or maybe majorly not suggested?

Thanks for any suggestions or ideas in this re guard, and take care --

Alex



Do what I did. Find a GC that needs a worker. Do the work at minimum
wage until you learn. Then ask the GC to build your house. Work for the
GS while building your house.


--
Bill
I am a peripheral visionary.
I can see the future, but it is off to the side.
Steven Wright

On Mar 22, 8:08 pm, "Alex" wrote:
Hi Everyone,

This question has probably been asked a zillion times before, but I
thought I'd ask since the market is always changing. We're looking at
possibly building a house in a few years, and we're thinking of first
finding an acre or two someplace and buying it now with the hope of
paying it off rather quickly (3-4 years) then starting construction of
a house afterwards. My question is that if we spend those years
researching the in's and out's of building a house, talk to local
folks, etc, would it be possible for us to basically build the house
without a general contractor?

I honestly don't know alot beyond general house repairs and
construction, plus what I've read in Handyman Magazine and seen on
television, but I'd like to think if I spent the time it'll take to
pay off/down the properly I can self-educate myself to contract the
house myself and save some money... plus possibly get involved in
building the house to some degree to cut corners.

Is this common to do or maybe majorly not suggested?

Thanks for any suggestions or ideas in this re guard, and take care --

Alex

Well, other people have done it with varying degrees of success, so
yes, it can be done. Is it worth it? Only you know that. Prepare for
a lot of stress and a lot of work. You probably won't save as much
money as you think, and it will be more work than you think.

Don't think that you can learn what a GC needs to know by studying for
a few years. Being a contractor really takes more knowledge and
experience than most people realize. Unfortunately, the only decent
school I know of is called the school of hard knocks. A good
contractor knows a good bit about pretty much every trade. You won't
have that knowledge, so you will have to rely on your subs.

Finally, pick a simple plan.

RicodJour wrote:
willshak wrote:

Do what I did. Find a GC that needs a worker. Do the work at minimum
wage until you learn. Then ask the GC to build your house. Work for the
GS while building your house.

That's an interesting way to do it. I'd never heard that one before
and it does make a lot of sense. Of course each person would have to
work out the feasibility based on their current job and earnings to
see if it made financial sense for them.


What if it turns out the contractor you go to work for ends up to be shoddy?



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com

Don't expect to save any money, unless your time is worth nothing.
Your job will be building a house, on spec, and you won't get "paid"
until you sell the house.

To learn basic construction skills you might volunteer with Habitat
for Humanity.

Una

Mortimer Schnerd, RN wrote:
RicodJour wrote:
willshak wrote:

Do what I did. Find a GC that needs a worker. Do the work at minimum
wage until you learn. Then ask the GC to build your house. Work for the
GS while building your house.

That's an interesting way to do it. I'd never heard that one before
and it does make a lot of sense. Of course each person would have to
work out the feasibility based on their current job and earnings to
see if it made financial sense for them.


What if it turns out the contractor you go to work for ends up to be shoddy?

Then most likely the contractor he would have hired would have been
shoddy as well. I don't understand your point.

R

Don't bother. A GC is obliged by contract to build a home per
specifications in the contract. Its a legal document. Don't sign it until
you're satisfied with its contents and wording. Watch for generalities,
make it specific.

Yes, get experience in the general mason, framing and finish carpenter,
plumbing, electrician, painter, roofing, sheetrock application, cabinet
installation fields. Be familiar with building code in your area, learn IRC
if not. Learn how to read blueprints. Pay attention to notes in those
blueprints. Take what you learn to keep an eye on the subs. Don't work for
any of the subs or the GC, you need to be free at all times for potential
supervision.

Don't forget the wastewater if no community sewer system is available in the
area. Same for water supply. A few GCs will take care of this too.

After all the experience, it can be generally carried over for homeowner
general maintenance.

--
Noncompliant

Money don't wag the dog's tail.

"Alex" wrote in message
oups.com...
Hi Everyone,

This question has probably been asked a zillion times before, but I
thought I'd ask since the market is always changing. We're looking at
possibly building a house in a few years, and we're thinking of first
finding an acre or two someplace and buying it now with the hope of
paying it off rather quickly (3-4 years) then starting construction of
a house afterwards. My question is that if we spend those years
researching the in's and out's of building a house, talk to local
folks, etc, would it be possible for us to basically build the house
without a general contractor?

I honestly don't know alot beyond general house repairs and
construction, plus what I've read in Handyman Magazine and seen on
television, but I'd like to think if I spent the time it'll take to
pay off/down the properly I can self-educate myself to contract the
house myself and save some money... plus possibly get involved in
building the house to some degree to cut corners.

Is this common to do or maybe majorly not suggested?

Thanks for any suggestions or ideas in this re guard, and take care --

Alex

Don't bother. A GC is obliged by contract to build a home per
specifications in the contract. Its a legal document. Don't sign it until
you're satisfied with its contents and wording. Watch for generalities,
make it specific.

Yes, get experience in the general mason, framing and finish carpenter,
plumbing, electrician, painter, roofing, sheetrock application, cabinet
installation fields. Be familiar with building code in your area, learn IRC
if not. Learn how to read blueprints. Pay attention to notes in those
blueprints. Take what you learn to keep an eye on the subs. Don't work for
any of the subs or the GC, you need to be free at all times for potential
supervision.

Don't forget the wastewater if no community sewer system is available in the
area. Same for water supply. A few GCs will take care of this too.

After all the experience, it can be generally carried over for homeowner
general maintenance.

--
Noncompliant

Money don't wag the dog's tail.

"Alex" wrote in message
oups.com...
Hi Everyone,

This question has probably been asked a zillion times before, but I
thought I'd ask since the market is always changing. We're looking at
possibly building a house in a few years, and we're thinking of first
finding an acre or two someplace and buying it now with the hope of
paying it off rather quickly (3-4 years) then starting construction of
a house afterwards. My question is that if we spend those years
researching the in's and out's of building a house, talk to local
folks, etc, would it be possible for us to basically build the house
without a general contractor?

I honestly don't know alot beyond general house repairs and
construction, plus what I've read in Handyman Magazine and seen on
television, but I'd like to think if I spent the time it'll take to
pay off/down the properly I can self-educate myself to contract the
house myself and save some money... plus possibly get involved in
building the house to some degree to cut corners.

Is this common to do or maybe majorly not suggested?

Thanks for any suggestions or ideas in this re guard, and take care --

Alex

"marson" wrote in message
ps.com...
On Mar 22, 8:08 pm, "Alex" wrote:
Hi Everyone,

This question has probably been asked a zillion times before, but I
thought I'd ask since the market is always changing. We're looking at
possibly building a house in a few years, and we're thinking of first
finding an acre or two someplace and buying it now with the hope of
paying it off rather quickly (3-4 years) then starting construction of
a house afterwards. My question is that if we spend those years
researching the in's and out's of building a house, talk to local
folks, etc, would it be possible for us to basically build the house
without a general contractor?

I honestly don't know alot beyond general house repairs and
construction, plus what I've read in Handyman Magazine and seen on
television, but I'd like to think if I spent the time it'll take to
pay off/down the properly I can self-educate myself to contract the
house myself and save some money... plus possibly get involved in
building the house to some degree to cut corners.

Is this common to do or maybe majorly not suggested?

Thanks for any suggestions or ideas in this re guard, and take care --

Alex

Well, other people have done it with varying degrees of success, so
yes, it can be done. Is it worth it? Only you know that. Prepare for
a lot of stress and a lot of work. You probably won't save as much
money as you think, and it will be more work than you think.

Don't think that you can learn what a GC needs to know by studying for
a few years. Being a contractor really takes more knowledge and
experience than most people realize. Unfortunately, the only decent
school I know of is called the school of hard knocks. A good
contractor knows a good bit about pretty much every trade.

The only thing I'd add is that in most places it does not take any
demonstration of these hard knocks in order to ***call*** oneself a GC. So
there are scenarios where a novice owner-builder could be not that much more
incompetent that someone who calls himself a GC.

To the OP, see link:

http://www.bartleby.com/59/3/foolsrushinw.html


--


MichaelB
www.michaelbulatovich.ca

Don't buy the land now. Wait. Within 3-4 years, a major recession/
deflation will arrive. You will be able to buy at lower prices.

On Mar 22, 7:08 pm, "Alex" wrote:
Hi Everyone,

This question has probably been asked a zillion times before, but I
thought I'd ask since the market is always changing. We're looking at
possibly building a house in a few years, and we're thinking of first
finding an acre or two someplace and buying it now with the hope of
paying it off rather quickly (3-4 years) then starting construction of
a house afterwards. My question is that if we spend those years
researching the in's and out's of building a house, talk to local
folks, etc, would it be possible for us to basically build the house
without a general contractor?

I honestly don't know alot beyond general house repairs and
construction, plus what I've read in Handyman Magazine and seen on
television, but I'd like to think if I spent the time it'll take to
pay off/down the properly I can self-educate myself to contract the
house myself and save some money... plus possibly get involved in
building the house to some degree to cut corners.

Is this common to do or maybe majorly not suggested?

Thanks for any suggestions or ideas in this re guard, and take care --

Alex

wrote:
Don't buy the land now. Wait. Within 3-4 years, a major recession/
deflation will arrive. You will be able to buy at lower prices.

snip

What makes you think the land will be there in 3-4 years?

--
Notan

On Mar 23, 10:04 am, Notan notan@ddressthatcanbespammed wrote:
wrote:
Don't buy the land now. Wait. Within 3-4 years, a major recession/
deflation will arrive. You will be able to buy at lower prices.

snip

What makes you think the land will be there in 3-4 years?

--
Notan

People will be cash-strapped. Lots of land and properties will be on
the market. We're just seeing the very beginning.

"Notan" notan@ddressthatcanbespammed wrote in message
...
wrote:
Don't buy the land now. Wait. Within 3-4 years, a major recession/
deflation will arrive. You will be able to buy at lower prices.

snip

What makes you think the land will be there in 3-4 years?

--
Notan

exactly. in my area, almost all of the land in town has been bought up and
built upon. the places left are the hard builds (nearby washes,
mountainsides, etc), which will cost you far more in the long run to build
upon. also, the shortage of land has caused the price to quadruple in 5
years.

the OP should research where they want to build to see what special
conditions are going to affect their decision.

regards,
charlie
cave creek, az

On Mar 23, 11:18 am, "charlie"
wrote:
"Notan" notan@ddressthatcanbespammed wrote in message

...

wrote:
Don't buy the land now. Wait. Within 3-4 years, a major recession/
deflation will arrive. You will be able to buy at lower prices.

snip

What makes you think the land will be there in 3-4 years?

--
Notan

exactly. in my area, almost all of the land in town has been bought up and
built upon. the places left are the hard builds (nearby washes,
mountainsides, etc), which will cost you far more in the long run to build
upon. also, the shortage of land has caused the price to quadruple in 5
years.

the OP should research where they want to build to see what special
conditions are going to affect their decision.

regards,
charlie
cave creek, az

It's gone up, it will come down. Don't be a fool, don't buy at the
top.
'97-'03: NASDAQ quadrupled in much less than 5 yrs, then it went back
to where it started.

wrote:
On Mar 23, 10:04 am, Notan notan@ddressthatcanbespammed wrote:
wrote:
Don't buy the land now. Wait. Within 3-4 years, a major recession/
deflation will arrive. You will be able to buy at lower prices.
snip

What makes you think the land will be there in 3-4 years?

--
Notan

People will be cash-strapped. Lots of land and properties will be on
the market. We're just seeing the very beginning.

Trust me (or not), if the land is decent, it'll be snatched up.

There are plenty of people, with *lots* of money, that can afford to
take chances.

--
Notan

wrote:
On Mar 23, 11:18 am, "charlie"
wrote:
"Notan" notan@ddressthatcanbespammed wrote in message

...

wrote:
Don't buy the land now. Wait. Within 3-4 years, a major recession/
deflation will arrive. You will be able to buy at lower prices.
snip
What makes you think the land will be there in 3-4 years?
--
Notan
exactly. in my area, almost all of the land in town has been bought up and
built upon. the places left are the hard builds (nearby washes,
mountainsides, etc), which will cost you far more in the long run to build
upon. also, the shortage of land has caused the price to quadruple in 5
years.

the OP should research where they want to build to see what special
conditions are going to affect their decision.

regards,
charlie
cave creek, az

It's gone up, it will come down. Don't be a fool, don't buy at the
top.
'97-'03: NASDAQ quadrupled in much less than 5 yrs, then it went back
to where it started.

Those who "know" when the highs and lows will occur are few and far between.

--
Notan

On 22 Mar 2007 18:08:39 -0700, someone wrote:

.... would it be possible for us to basically build the house
without a general contractor?

I honestly don't know alot beyond general house repairs and
construction, plus what I've read in Handyman Magazine

Sure it's "possible". But you won't save any money.

If you want to learn how to build a house, and are willing to do it in
real time with your own money, go ahead.

An established GC has reliable subs who give him the best prices, as
well as scheduling priority. A good sub isn't hurting for work and
would prefer working with an established professional he knows, than
an ignorant noob who he will have to take the time to educate, plus he
doesn't know how reliable you are about paying your bills. So if the
subs charge you ten percent more, and then with your own screw-ups you
cost yourself 10% in mistakes and omissions and do-overs, then there
goes your savings.

I have done it more than once. But then I have a degree in
architecture, worked as a structural designer, a project manager and
an on-site superintendent. If you have to ask :"can we" or "is it
possible", then no you should not. If you have to ask, the answer is
no.


Reply to NG only - this e.mail address goes to a kill file.

(v) wrote:

If you have to ask :"can we" or "is it possible",
then no you should not. If you have to ask, the answer is no.

Succinctly put...

"Rick Blaine" wrote in message
...
(v) wrote:

If you have to ask :"can we" or "is it possible",
then no you should not. If you have to ask, the answer is no.

Succinctly put...

Is this Rick Blaine of Rhode Island?

"M" wrote:

Is this Rick Blaine of Rhode Island?

'fraid not... Cassablanca...

In article .com,
I honestly don't know alot beyond general house repairs and
construction, plus what I've read in Handyman Magazine and seen on
television, but I'd like to think if I spent the time it'll take to
pay off/down the properly I can self-educate myself to contract the
house myself and save some money... plus possibly get involved in
building the house to some degree to cut corners.

Is this common to do or maybe majorly not suggested?

This is not quite what you wanted, but sort of on the same direction.
At this custom house builder:

http://www.armstrong-homes.com/customhomes/index.html

they have a program that might appeal to you.

(NOTE: I've never dealt with this company. I simply found their web
page when searching for something, and recalled it when I saw you post).

Perhaps someone in your area has a similar program. They talk about it
in the FAQ, but before I get to that question/answer, let me give
another, since they use the term ArmSystem in their answer, so that
needs to be explained first:

Q: What is the ArmSystem(TM)?

Armstrong has been building quality custom homes for over 50 years.
Blending your budget, property, and design to give you the very best
in custom building is what the Armsystem is all about. The entire
project can be handled by our trained professional staff, from start
to finish, including all those special little details that makes
your house your home. A home that not only reflects the outstanding
quality framing methods of the Armsystem, but also reflects your
taste and lifestyle, just the way you want it.

ArmSystem is built in sections at Armstrong's manufacturing
headquarters in Auburn, Washington, using the Off-Site Construction
Method. Then it is installed by the Certified Professionals to
ensure the industry leading warranty up to 10 years for peace of
mind.

They can do the traditional method of home building:

Q: ArmSystem Turn-Key Program?

Turn-Key means you don't have to do anything with building of your
home. You just let us know what you want, and we will make it a
reality. We, literally, give you a key when we finish the
construction.

But they also have a program that might be what you are looking for:

Q: ArmSystem Owner-Builder Program?

With this program, you get to coordinate part of the construction
process, thus, saving you money. The conventional owner-builder
programs are geared towards Do-It-Yourselfers where you have to put
in the labor (or the sweat equity). But with the ArmSystem»
Owner-Builder Program, you make the phone calls! Of course, you can
paint, or install the cabinets, or build a deck... to save you more
money. But we install the ArmSystem» of your home with our
certified professional, so the hardest part of your building
endeavor is done by the time you start calling your electricians and
plumbers. On average, ArmSystem» Owner-Builders are realizing the
instant equity of 10 to 35 percent!!



--
--Tim Smith

"Tim Smith" wrote in message
...
In article .com,
I honestly don't know alot beyond general house repairs and
construction, plus what I've read in Handyman Magazine and seen on
television, but I'd like to think if I spent the time it'll take to
pay off/down the properly I can self-educate myself to contract the
house myself and save some money... plus possibly get involved in
building the house to some degree to cut corners.

Is this common to do or maybe majorly not suggested?

This is not quite what you wanted, but sort of on the same direction.
At this custom house builder:

http://www.armstrong-homes.com/customhomes/index.html

they have a program that might appeal to you.
(Snip)
Sounds like the old shell-home concept, except with modular units.

I grew up in the business, have a fair grasp of most of the trades, and I
wouldn't try to be GC on my own place. Maybe if I was retired and had time
to be on the site every day, and be available to be on-call when questions
and problems arise. The objections everyone else raised are quite valid- all
the subs will consider an owner-builder their lowest scheduling priority,
and be very wary about dealing with someone clueless. So, yeah, it's
possible to do what OP proposed, but it will likely take longer, and not
save very much. And expect to have a real hard time getting financing, since
most banks consider owner-built a high-risk loan. A painfully high per
centage end up being walk-aways or require lots of fixing to pass
inspection.

(I lump owner-as-GC in with owner-built, since almost everyone has to sub
some stuff out.)

But if OP isn't in a hurry, and can self-finanace- what the hell, go for it.
It'll be an educational adventure.

aem sends....

In article ,
"aemeijers" wrote:
This is not quite what you wanted, but sort of on the same direction.
At this custom house builder:

http://www.armstrong-homes.com/customhomes/index.html

they have a program that might appeal to you.
(Snip)
Sounds like the old shell-home concept, except with modular units.

I'm not sure what the distinction is, but they seem to consider
themselves different from modular units:

Q: Is it a modular? Manufactured?? Mobile???

NO, NO and NO!!! Armstrong is a complete custom home builder. That
means everything is CUSTOM! The ArmSystem utilizes the Off-Site
Construction Method. With our Off-Site method, the walls are
assembled into sectional panels just like the On-Site method But the
difference is, with On-Site, the weather and site conditions vary
from day to day causing the walls to be out-of-square and exposed to
rain. But with our ArmSystem.

(I hope the people who build their houses are better than the people who
build their website. That last sentence fragment is from their site,
not an error in my transcription).

--
--Tim Smith

Tim Smith wrote:

With our Off-Site method, the walls are
assembled into sectional panels just like the On-Site method But the
difference is, with On-Site, the weather and site conditions vary
from day to day causing the walls to be out-of-square and exposed to
rain.

We have an outfit nearby that does something similar. They prebuild all the
frame walls in a large building, stage the entire building in an empty field
nextdoor and truck it out to the site. I would think actual site construction is
just a couple of days rather than a couple of weeks for typical framing.

That obviously means the framing plan needs to be good, but I suspect the
overall cost isn't that much more. Material delivery is about the same, labor is
the same or less. Quality can be better in a factory than on site.

They typically have a dozen or more buildings being staged, so buisness must be
good.

On Mar 24, 4:51 pm, Rick Blaine wrote:
Tim Smith wrote:
With our Off-Site method, the walls are
assembled into sectional panels just like the On-Site method But the
difference is, with On-Site, the weather and site conditions vary
from day to day causing the walls to be out-of-square and exposed to
rain.

We have an outfit nearby that does something similar. They prebuild all the
frame walls in a large building, stage the entire building in an empty field
nextdoor and truck it out to the site. I would think actual site construction is
just a couple of days rather than a couple of weeks for typical framing.

That obviously means the framing plan needs to be good, but I suspect the
overall cost isn't that much more. Material delivery is about the same, labor is
the same or less. Quality can be better in a factory than on site.

They typically have a dozen or more buildings being staged, so buisness must be
good.

I have endured more than one sales pitch for panelized building. It
have seen other builders (usually commercial) using them, and one day
I'd like to try them. But I'm still a skeptic. Basically, what you
are saving yourself is the wall building, which as a percentage of
time spent on a project is very small. You still have to set trusses,
run subfascia, sheath the roof, etc. Although you can frame a
building somewhat faster, the cost savings are offset by needing to
have several days worth of crane time (big crane too, probably going
for 200 bucks an hour) and needing to truck the panels to the site
(you have to ship a lot of air with the panels, so a lumber pack which
would fit on one truck is going to take several). I don't believe the
malarky about them being more square and straight...the builders I
talk to who have used them have more swoops in their walls than
conventionally framed houses. When my crew frames a wall, it will be
within an 1/8th or usually less of square--I haven't checked prefab
panels, but it's hard to see the advantage in quality. Provided you
have decent carpenters, the quality of your walls is going to depend
on the quality of the lumber, and we're all in the same boat there.
I'll bet you the panellized outfits aren't going through and picking
the straight studs out of a unit. then you have the problem of
fitting the house to the foundation. Pretty common for the masons to
get things out of whack, especially when dealing with stepped footings
which are common where I live. If your foundation measures, say 36-1,
and the panels are 36, what do you do? Fix it, sure, but there goes
yet more of your labor savings.

There were a couple of projects going up next door to my projects last
summer, built of panels by a company who had earlier given me a hard
sell. That was quite entertaining to watch--took longer to frame
their projects than my conventionally framed houses. There is a very
good reason why sheathing should not be put on the rafters before
they are set! They gave the sawzall a workout more than once. Plus
the lumber pack was provided by the panel company, and guess what!
they were short of vital roof framing material! Some mornings you'd
show up and listen to the foreman bitch about waiting for a load of
panels. I suppose it's best not to judge every panel company by that
bunch of jokers, though. Panel building has been around for a long
time, and time will tell whether it's the way to go or not. But
framing a house is really a pretty small part of the whole process,
and although it sounds good in a sales pitch, a house is a hell of a
lot more than framing.

On Mar 24, 9:58 pm, "aemeijers" wrote:

A prefab panel system I might be inclined to ponder would be those foamcore
SIP panels, like they showed on TOH a couple of times. You can't make those
on site.

Right. The wall framing itself is the least of it. If I can put up a
superior shell, complete with superior insulation and a completed 100%
fastenable interior wall surface, then that's the way to go. Modular
housing also makes more sense than panelized.

R

On Mar 24, 9:23 pm, "RicodJour" wrote:
On Mar 24, 9:58 pm, "aemeijers" wrote:



A prefab panel system I might be inclined to ponder would be those foamcore
SIP panels, like they showed on TOH a couple of times. You can't make those
on site.

Right. The wall framing itself is the least of it. If I can put up a
superior shell, complete with superior insulation and a completed 100%
fastenable interior wall surface, then that's the way to go. Modular
housing also makes more sense than panelized.

R

I always thought that a problem with sips was getting them to fit
together. Easy on paper, but unless your foundation is dead flat, it
seems like a good fit will be a struggle. I saw a new commercial
building one winter that had the roof framed with sips. I wasn't
impressed with the melt lines at the panel joints. Also, wiring and
plumbing penetrations are liable to be interesting. I suppose I come
across as a stick framing neanderthal, but both sips and panel houses
have been around for 20 or 30 years. Given the price pressures in
residential construction, when a method that is better-faster-cheaper
comes along, it will make its own way into the market.

"marson" wrote in message
oups.com...
On Mar 24, 4:51 pm, Rick Blaine wrote:
Tim Smith wrote:
With our Off-Site method, the walls are
assembled into sectional panels just like the On-Site method But the
difference is, with On-Site, the weather and site conditions vary
from day to day causing the walls to be out-of-square and exposed to
rain.

We have an outfit nearby that does something similar. They prebuild all
the
frame walls in a large building, stage the entire building in an empty
field
nextdoor and truck it out to the site. I would think actual site
construction is
just a couple of days rather than a couple of weeks for typical framing.

That obviously means the framing plan needs to be good, but I suspect the
overall cost isn't that much more. Material delivery is about the same,
labor is
the same or less. Quality can be better in a factory than on site.

They typically have a dozen or more buildings being staged, so buisness
must be
good.

I have endured more than one sales pitch for panelized building. It
have seen other builders (usually commercial) using them, and one day
I'd like to try them. But I'm still a skeptic. Basically, what you
are saving yourself is the wall building, which as a percentage of
time spent on a project is very small. You still have to set trusses,
run subfascia, sheath the roof, etc. Although you can frame a
(snip)
and time will tell whether it's the way to go or not. But
framing a house is really a pretty small part of the whole process,
and although it sounds good in a sales pitch, a house is a hell of a
lot more than framing.

As a kid in Indiana 30-some years ago, when lots of big apartment
complexes were going up, a few of them tried the prefab panels. Seems like
an ideal app- 300 to 600 repeats of same basic floor plan. But since even a
short wall gets heavy fast once skin goes on, on a 3-story 4-entrance
apartment building, you end up having to fly them all in with a crane. I
guess they found crane time cost more than carpernter time, becaise within a
few years I never saw it again.

A prefab panel system I might be inclined to ponder would be those foamcore
SIP panels, like they showed on TOH a couple of times. You can't make those
on site.

aem sends....

On Mar 22, 5:08 pm, "Alex" wrote:
Hi Everyone,

This question has probably been asked a zillion times before, but I
thought I'd ask since the market is always changing. We're looking at
possibly building a house in a few years, and we're thinking of first
finding an acre or two someplace and buying it now with the hope of
paying it off rather quickly (3-4 years) then starting construction of
a house afterwards. My question is that if we spend those years
researching the in's and out's of building a house, talk to local
folks, etc, would it be possible for us to basically build the house
without a general contractor?

I honestly don't know alot beyond general house repairs and
construction, plus what I've read in Handyman Magazine and seen on
television, but I'd like to think if I spent the time it'll take to
pay off/down the properly I can self-educate myself to contract the
house myself and save some money... plus possibly get involved in
building the house to some degree to cut corners.

Is this common to do or maybe majorly not suggested?

Thanks for any suggestions or ideas in this re guard, and take care --

Alex


There are pros and cons to each option. Right now I am in the
middle of a major remodeling in my house where I decided to be the
General Contractor. I am saving a lot of money in the process. At
least 30% of the average price some GCs quoted me. And I am not even
including the "change orders".

It is a very wrong assumption thinking that a GC will "take care of
everything" and "everything will go fine" by working with a GC. I
know of several "terror stories" and "bad experiences" of people
working with GCs, even building expensive high-end homes.

Get a very good architect who can make detailed drawings of your
vision and the necessary specifications. Go the the local "Better
Business Bureau" and check the companies and services you wish, as a
start.

Another misconception is the one that you may not get the best
material prices. Well... GCs and Subs overcharge you anyways and
nowadays you can get very good deals in Home Depot, Lowes and over the
Internet. For example, Home Depot and Lowes have a promotion of 10%
discount on your first purchase with their credit card. Get one for
you then later another for your wife, etc.

Pros
- You have the flexibility of changing your project without going
through a contract renegotiations or "change orders" with the GC.
Actually, Change Orders are where they really get you since you are on
the hook with them. Actually, this was confirmed by more than one
GCs (some retired) I talked with. Of course, you may have to
renegotiate the changes with the subs but they are way more flexible
and sometimes will not charge you for the change if you tell them in
time and it is not something major (for example, adding an extra
window - provided you buy it - or changing the location of a door).

- You have more control of the expenses since you are seeing each
sub's costs. With a GC you only see the whole cost.

- If you are handy and a "do-it-yourself" type person you can save a
lot of money, assuming you will treat your home building as a "rea
job". It will take a considerable amount of your time if you want it
done right.

- No "change orders" where GCs usually overcharge/overprice since it's
where they make most of the money and they know they will come because
some things only show up when you have the house being build or
remodeled.

- Did I say you save a lot of money? :-)


Cons
- It will take a lot of your time, both managing the subcontractors
and studying codes, construction techniques, etc. And you will have
to discuss them with the subs explaining very clearly what you want
and what you do not want.

- You will have to deal with the subs on your own and have very good
Project Management skills to make sure materials arrive on time, subs
finish their part on time and clear the site for the next ones,
arrange the inspector visits and deal with them (in my case they have
been very nice and helpful), make sure you have a good insurance
policy, etc.

- You may be put in the end of the line by the best subs since they
usually give priority to the GCs, who keep bringing jobs to them, as
other posters mentioned.


It has been a very nice experience for me and I've been learning a
lot. It is not as difficult as some like to portray as long as you
choose your subs well, dedicate time and patience to the project and
you do a good chunk of the work yourself. In my case I'm doing/did
all the electrical, most of the plumbing, all insulation, painting,
installing doors, trims, etc. All of them, so far, passing the codes
and approved by the inspectors. I hired subs to do the framing,
drywalls and very likely tiling. And, by the way, I could also buy
some very nice tools during the project! ;-)

Good luck!

"Rookie_Remodeler" wrote in message
oups.com...
There are pros and cons to each option. Right now I am in the
middle of a major remodeling in my house where I decided to be the
General Contractor. I am saving a lot of money in the process. At
least 30% of the average price some GCs quoted me. And I am not even
including the "change orders".

It is a very wrong assumption thinking that a GC will "take care of
everything" and "everything will go fine" by working with a GC. I
know of several "terror stories" and "bad experiences" of people
working with GCs, even building expensive high-end homes.

Get a very good architect who can make detailed drawings of your
vision and the necessary specifications. Go the the local "Better
Business Bureau" and check the companies and services you wish, as a
start.

Another misconception is the one that you may not get the best
material prices. Well... GCs and Subs overcharge you anyways and
nowadays you can get very good deals in Home Depot, Lowes and over the
Internet. For example, Home Depot and Lowes have a promotion of 10%
discount on your first purchase with their credit card. Get one for
you then later another for your wife, etc.

Pros
- You have the flexibility of changing your project without going
through a contract renegotiations or "change orders" with the GC.
Actually, Change Orders are where they really get you since you are on
the hook with them. Actually, this was confirmed by more than one
GCs (some retired) I talked with. Of course, you may have to
renegotiate the changes with the subs but they are way more flexible
and sometimes will not charge you for the change if you tell them in
time and it is not something major (for example, adding an extra
window - provided you buy it - or changing the location of a door).

- You have more control of the expenses since you are seeing each
sub's costs. With a GC you only see the whole cost.

- If you are handy and a "do-it-yourself" type person you can save a
lot of money, assuming you will treat your home building as a "rea
job". It will take a considerable amount of your time if you want it
done right.

- No "change orders" where GCs usually overcharge/overprice since it's
where they make most of the money and they know they will come because
some things only show up when you have the house being build or
remodeled.

- Did I say you save a lot of money? :-)


Cons
- It will take a lot of your time, both managing the subcontractors
and studying codes, construction techniques, etc. And you will have
to discuss them with the subs explaining very clearly what you want
and what you do not want.

- You will have to deal with the subs on your own and have very good
Project Management skills to make sure materials arrive on time, subs
finish their part on time and clear the site for the next ones,
arrange the inspector visits and deal with them (in my case they have
been very nice and helpful), make sure you have a good insurance
policy, etc.

- You may be put in the end of the line by the best subs since they
usually give priority to the GCs, who keep bringing jobs to them, as
other posters mentioned.


It has been a very nice experience for me and I've been learning a
lot. It is not as difficult as some like to portray as long as you
choose your subs well, dedicate time and patience to the project and
you do a good chunk of the work yourself. In my case I'm doing/did
all the electrical, most of the plumbing, all insulation, painting,
installing doors, trims, etc. All of them, so far, passing the codes
and approved by the inspectors. I hired subs to do the framing,
drywalls and very likely tiling. And, by the way, I could also buy
some very nice tools during the project! ;-)


Nice post, Rookie. The point that stood out for me is the inverse
relationship between the quality of the drawings and the required experience
of the contractor.
--


MichaelB
www.michaelbulatovich.ca

On Mar 25, 11:00 am, "Michael Bulatovich" wrote:

Nice post, Rookie. The point that stood out for me is the inverse
relationship between the quality of the drawings and the required experience
of the contractor.

What stood out to me was that there was no mention of the value of the
owner's time. Invariably these sort of posts make no mention of
determining the value of that time and don't acknowledge that it is a
real cost that should carry through to the bottom line. It's akin to
figuring a time and materials job and putting zero value on the time.
Do not ever put a zero dollar value on anyone's time at any point. I
am not saying that it can't be done, or shouldn't be done, but don't
fudge the numbers going into the project. That never works out well.

If anyone is serious about doing something like this, don't pretend
that reading a lot and good intentions make up for experience, nor
that your time has no value if you are working on your house. It
might make more sense, depending on your particular situation, to set
up an S-chapter corporation to build your house, hire yourself and pay
yourself wages, deduct the tools as a business expense, etc. That of
course depends on a lot of factors, such as licensing laws. If you
put zero value on your time, and you sell the house, you have made a
major impact on the base cost which will have a major impact on your
capital gains tax liability. Someone should not attempt a large
dollar project like building a house without consulting an accountant
that has knowledge of the tax implications _before_ you do anything
else.

R

"RicodJour" wrote in message
oups.com...
On Mar 25, 11:00 am, "Michael Bulatovich" wrote:

Nice post, Rookie. The point that stood out for me is the inverse
relationship between the quality of the drawings and the required
experience
of the contractor.

What stood out to me was that there was no mention of the value of the
owner's time.

I think he made that pretty clear:

"Cons
- It will take a lot of your time, both managing the subcontractors
and studying codes, construction techniques, etc. "

He didn't beat the point to death, but he made it the top of the Con List.
--


MichaelB
www.michaelbulatovich.ca

On Mar 25, 10:51 am, "RicodJour" wrote:
On Mar 25, 11:00 am, "Michael Bulatovich" wrote:



Nice post, Rookie. The point that stood out for me is the inverse
relationship between the quality of the drawings and the required experience
of the contractor.

What stood out to me was that there was no mention of the value of the
owner's time. Invariably these sort of posts make no mention of
determining the value of that time and don't acknowledge that it is a
real cost that should carry through to the bottom line. It's akin to
figuring a time and materials job and putting zero value on the time.
Do not ever put a zero dollar value on anyone's time at any point. I
am not saying that it can't be done, or shouldn't be done, but don't
fudge the numbers going into the project. That never works out well.

If anyone is serious about doing something like this, don't pretend
that reading a lot and good intentions make up for experience, nor
that your time has no value if you are working on your house. It
might make more sense, depending on your particular situation, to set
up an S-chapter corporation to build your house, hire yourself and pay
yourself wages, deduct the tools as a business expense, etc.

You can't be serious. If you pay yourself, you're taking your own
after tax money and recycling it back through the tax system. Not
only are you going to pay income tax on the wages your paying
yourself, but also social security and unemployment insurance. It's
highly unlikely that is going to be offset by writing off tools or
other expenses. Plus, the IRS does not allow a homeowner to assign a
value to labor they do on their own home with regard to capital
improvements. I would think they would take a dim view of an S
corporation, set up to skirt that, especially one that is running at a
loss.





That of
course depends on a lot of factors, such as licensing laws. If you
put zero value on your time, and you sell the house, you have made a
major impact on the base cost which will have a major impact on your
capital gains tax liability.

In most cases this is a non-issue. The first $250K in capital gains
is exempt from tax for singles, and $500K for couples. So, the house
would have to appreciate a lot before there is any issue at all. And
beyond that, the rate is only 15%. So, if he saves 40K doing work
himself, on the slim chance he exceeds the limits, he only winds up
paying $6K in tax someday in the future. Meantime, he's got the 40K.




Someone should not attempt a large
dollar project like building a house without consulting an accountant
that has knowledge of the tax implications _before_ you do anything
else.

R

On Mar 25, 12:05 pm, "Michael Bulatovich" wrote:
"RicodJour" wrote in message

oups.com...

On Mar 25, 11:00 am, "Michael Bulatovich" wrote:

Nice post, Rookie. The point that stood out for me is the inverse
relationship between the quality of the drawings and the required
experience
of the contractor.

What stood out to me was that there was no mention of the value of the
owner's time.

I think he made that pretty clear:

"Cons
- It will take a lot of your time, both managing the subcontractors
and studying codes, construction techniques, etc. "

He didn't beat the point to death, but he made it the top of the Con List.

You don't see a difference between saying it will take a lot of time
and putting a dollar value on that time?
How about the completed house's cost tax basis affecting tax liability
years down the road?

Don't misunderstand me, I think Rookie's post was just fine on almost
all points, but, as usual in almost all such owner-builder anecdotes,
the owner's time is relegated to little or no value. Certainly no
dollar value is used, and that is a major oversight.

No matter how much enjoyment someone will get out of building their
own home, it's better to do it with eyes wide open so good decisions
can be made. Not just the decision about whether to attempt building
the house on their own or not, but also about how to determine if the
owner should even attempt some of the specific aspects of work that a
pro could complete far faster.

R

On Mar 25, 12:12 pm, wrote:

You can't be serious. If you pay yourself, you're taking your own
after tax money and recycling it back through the tax system. Not
only are you going to pay income tax on the wages your paying
yourself, but also social security and unemployment insurance. It's
highly unlikely that is going to be offset by writing off tools or
other expenses. Plus, the IRS does not allow a homeowner to assign a
value to labor they do on their own home with regard to capital
improvements. I would think they would take a dim view of an S
corporation, set up to skirt that, especially one that is running at a
loss.

I digressed from my main point that the value of the homeowner's time
should be calculated as there is no such thing as "free" time. I got
off point, gave an example that may or may not work for some/most
people, and you are right to call me on it. In my defense, I did
include _lots_ of weasel words! "It might make more sense, depending
on your particular situation...", etc. I have not done the S-chapter
thing, but a contractor buddy got started in construction in just that
way. He'd messed around enough on earlier homes that when the time
came he decided to set up a business and start with his own house. He
said it worked out very well for him on a a number of levels.

In most cases this is a non-issue. The first $250K in capital gains
is exempt from tax for singles, and $500K for couples. So, the house
would have to appreciate a lot before there is any issue at all. And
beyond that, the rate is only 15%. So, if he saves 40K doing work
himself, on the slim chance he exceeds the limits, he only winds up
paying $6K in tax someday in the future. Meantime, he's got the 40K.

He's got the 40K "savings" and how much time did he put in to earn
it? Would he have earned as much or more putting in those hours in
overtime at his regular job?

It's pointless to argue details for a specific case, as everyone's
situation is different. I am pointing out that there are a lot of
intangibles and hidden costs that must be taken into account if
someone is doing something other than pretending to understand what's
involved so they can proceed with building their house. If I
mentioned the increased risk of getting hurt traipsing around on a job
site, some might counter with with, "I have insurance." That does not
offset the increased risk. Similarly, all the things you and I have
learned over the years, some learned the _hard_ way, are not included
in books, anecdotes or covered by an architect's once a week visit.
And let's face it, the type of person that looks to be their own GC to
save money will rarely spring for the architect's paid site visits at
$125 a pop (or whatever). Rookie didn't mention an architect in any
capacity other than preparing "very detailed drawings." Have you ever
seen a set of plans that didn't have errors and omissions? Me
neither.

People point to change orders as being a contractor's way of gouging
the homeowner. Obviously that does happen with some contractors, but
that's the contractor, not the change order mechanism. If an owner
wants to move something, that change can cascade back through the
construction process, requiring existing work to be reworked to allow
the change. It also can interfere with the scheduled flow of work.
It's a disruption. People charge for disruptions. I know I am
preaching to the choir, and you are well aware of how it works, but a
newbie owner-builder probably doesn't. They're thinking, "Well, hell,
just pull out that one, add a trim piece and put in the new one. How
hard can it be?"

Rookie wrote: "Right now I am in the middle of a major remodeling in
my house where I decided to be the General Contractor. I am saving a
lot of money in the process. At least 30% of the average price some
GCs quoted me." Out of curiosity, do you count up your profits before
the job is over? You're well aware that the things at the end of the
project - all of the _visible_ things - can eat up profit at a
tremendous rate.

There was another proud owner-builder (Rookie this does _not_ apply to
you) in alt.architecture who was fumbling his way through his build a
year or so ago:
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.a...bb41f2beddf24c
The situation quickly deteriorated from the
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.b...9dce5b8e106985
"The rough opening for our staircase on the second floor is off by 3
feet. The mistake was made by the truss company that designed our
floor truss systems, and nobody caught it until after our staircase
was built."
I have no idea how such a large dimensional error could get past the
truss company, builder and owner, but it did. An extreme and
unfortunate example.

There are no free lunches. If you think it's free, you've missed
something. That was all I was saying.

R

"RicodJour" wrote in message
oups.com...
On Mar 25, 12:05 pm, "Michael Bulatovich" wrote:
"RicodJour" wrote in message

oups.com...

On Mar 25, 11:00 am, "Michael Bulatovich" wrote:

Nice post, Rookie. The point that stood out for me is the inverse
relationship between the quality of the drawings and the required
experience
of the contractor.

What stood out to me was that there was no mention of the value of the
owner's time.

I think he made that pretty clear:

"Cons
- It will take a lot of your time, both managing the subcontractors
and studying codes, construction techniques, etc. "

He didn't beat the point to death, but he made it the top of the Con
List.

You don't see a difference between saying it will take a lot of time
and putting a dollar value on that time?

I stand corrected.