I'm in Florida working on getting post-hurricane repairs made to my house.
Replacement of the roof, drywall replacement in several rooms and full house
carpet replacement.

I've found a General Contractor who says they can do the work. They left an
agreement with me to sign before they'll begin any contact with the
Insurance company. I realize many of you aren't attornies but am hoping some
have had experience with this sort of issue and see what you think about
some points on the agreement - under each I'll include any questions
concerns about the point. If you see something, by all means speak up. By
the way, sorry for the all caps, but I did this by OCR off my scanner. It
would take forever to type it all:

3. SHOULD DEFAULT BE MADE IN PAYMENT OF THIS AGREEMENT FOR MORE THAN
FIFTEEN DAYS, A LATE CHARGE EQUAL TO FIVE PERCENT OF THE AMOUNT DUE PLUS
INTEREST FROM THE DATE THEREOF AT A RATE OF ONE AND ONE-HALF (1 1/2) PERCENT
PER MONTH (18 PER ANNUM) OR SUCH MAXIMUM AMOUNT ALLOWED BY LAW, AND IF
PLACED IN THE HANDS OF AN ATTORNEY FOR COLLECTION. ALL ALLOWABLE ATTORNEY'S
FEES AND LEGAL AND FILING FEES SHALL BE PAID BY THE CUSTOMER.


I wonder about coordination of money from the Insurance company vs when the
contractor is going to be doing the work. Do they normally not begin work
until the insurance company has agreed to the costs?


6. COMPANY RESERVES THE RIGHT TO REVOKE THIS PROPOSAL 90 DAYS FROM DATE
ACCEPTED. AFTER 90 DAYS, COMPANY RESERVES THE RIGHT TO REVISE ITS PRICE IN
ACCORDANCE WITH COSTS IN EFFECT AT THE TIME.

Is what they're saying is that they can back out any time up to 90 days or
that it's only good for 90 days?


7. THE COMPANY SHALL NOT BE LIABLE FOR FAILURE OF PERFORMANCE DUE TO LABOR
CONTROVERSIES, STRIKES, FIRES, WEATHER, INABILITY TO OBTAIN MATERIALS FROM
USUAL SOURCES, OR ANY OTHER CIRCUMSTANCES BEYOND THE CONTROL OF THE COMPANY,
WHETHER OF A SIMILAR OR DISSIMILAR NATURE.


I wonder what constitutes a "labor controversy"?


11. IF THIS AGREEMENT IS CANCELLED BY THE CUSTOMER, CUSTOMER SHALL PAY TO
THE COMPANY TWENTY-FIVE PERCENT (25) OF THE TOTAL AGREEMENT AMOUNT AS
LIQUIDATED DAMAGES, NOT AS A PENALTY, AND THE COMPANY AGREES TO ACCEPT SUCH
AS A REASONABLE AND JUST COMPENSATION FOR SAID CANCELLATION. THE PARTIES
ACKNOWLEDGE AND AGREE THAT DAMAGES THE COMPANY MIGHT REASONABLY ANTIC-
IPATE IN THE EVENT OF A BREACH OF THIS AGREEMENT BY CUSTOMER(S) WILL BE
DIFFICULT TO ASCERTAIN AND THE AMOUNT STIPULATED HEREIN IS A REASONABLE
ESTIMATE OF SUCH DAMAGES.

What if they keep stalling on work and I get sick of waiting for them and
want to look for someone else?

12. PAYMENT SCHEDULE: DEDUCTIBLE DUE UPON INSURANCE PROVIDER APPROVAL. FIFTY
PERCENT (50) OF THE TOTAL AGREEMENT AMOUNT DUE UPON DATE OF DELIVERY OF
APPLICABLE MATERIALS. BALANCE DUE UPON COMPLETION OF WORK. ALL PAYMENTS MUST
BE MADE TO THE COMPANY. ONLY PAYMENTS MADE TO AND RECEIVED BY THE COMPANY
WILL BE CONSIDERED TO SATISFY THE PAYMENT OF THIS AGREEMENT. PAYMENT
SCHEDULE SHALL NOT BE AMENDED WITHOUT THE PRIOR WRITTEN APPROVAL OF THE
COMPANY.


Is this normal? Btw, it's not quite what the contractor's rep said when he
came to do a preliminary look-see. He said on the roof that they get 1/3
when they get the materials, 1/3 when they "start driving nails" and 1/3
when I was happy with the job.


15. DURING THE DURATION OF THE WORK, THE CUSTOMER'S HOMEOWNERS INSURANCE
WILL BE RESPONSIBLE FOR ANY INTERIOR DAMAGE AS LONG AS THE COMPANY HAS TAKEN
APPROPRIATE ACTION TO PROTECT THE ROOF DURING THE REPAIR OF THE ROOF.


When could this be an issue?


17. THE COMPANY IS NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR PRE-EXISTING CONSTRUCTION
DEFICIENCIES THAT MANIFEST THEMSELVES DURING THE CONSTRUCTION PROCESS, I.E.
NAIL POPS, WOODROT, DECKING DEFLECTION, ETC. IF A CONSTRUCTION PROBLEM IS
POINTED OUT PRIOR TO CONSTRUCTION AND COMPANY IS NOTIFIED IN WRITING,
COMPANY WILL TRY TO ASSIST CUSTOMER TO CORRECT THE PROBLEM(S) ON A TIME AND
MATERIAL BASIS.


They seem to be referring largely to decks here which isn't an issue in my
case, but what is a "nail pop"? Any way it could apply to a roofing job?

19. COMPANY ACCEPTS NO LIABILITY TO INDEMNIFY OR HOLD CUSTOMER HARMLESS FOR
DAMAGES TO PERSONS OR PROPERTY, EXCEPT THOSE THAT ARE THE DIRECT RESULT OF
COMPANY'S NEGLIGENT ERROR OR OMISSION WHICH OCCUR DURING PERFORMANCE OF THE
COMPANY'S WORK. COMPANY DISCLAIMS ANY AND ALL LIABILITY FOR DAMAGES TO
PERSONS OR PROPERTY RESULTING FROM MOLD GROWTH WITHIN ANY PART OF THE
BUILDING ENVELOPE DUE TO MOISTURE ENTERING THE BUILDING ENVELOPE PRIOR TO
COMPANY'S COMPLETION OF INSTALLATION OF THE ROOF SYSTEMS/MEMBRANE, SIDING,
WINDOW AND GUTTER SYSTEMS OR AS THE RESULT OF DAMAGE TO OR PENETRATION OF
THE INSTALLED ROOF SYSTEMS/MEMBRANE, SIDING, WINDOW AND GUTTER SYSTEMS BY
OTHERS. CUSTOMER UNDERSTANDS AND AGREES THAT COMPANY SHALL HAVE NO
RESPONSIBILITY AT ANY TIME AFTER COMPLETION OF THE WORK FOR DAMAGES OF ANY
KIND TO PERSONS OR PROP
ERTY LOCATED BELOW THE INSTALLED ROOF SYSTEMS/MEMBRANE, SIDING, WINDOW AND
GUTTER SYSTEMS, WHETHER OR NOT SUCH DAMAGES RESULT FROM (A) LEAKS OR
WEATHER-ORIENTED SOURCES OR (B) MOLD GROWTH.


Any problems here?


20. THE COMPANY'S MONETARY DAMAGE LIABILITY FOR ANY CLAIM OF PROPERTY DAMAGE
ARISING OUT OF THE COMPANY'S PERFORMANCE OR NON-PERFORMANCE OF THIS
AGREEMENTSHALL NOT EXCEED THE TOTAL AGREEMENT AMOUNT.


I'm fuzzy on what's considered "the total agreement amount".


23. FLORIDA LAW APPLIES TO THIS AGREEMENT. ANY LEGAL PROCEEDING RELATING TO
THIS AGREEMENT SHALL BE FILED EXCLUSIVELY WITH THE COUNTY OR CIRCUIT COURT
OF ORANGE COUNTY, FL. THE RIGHT TO JURY TRIAL IS WAIVED.

The right to a jury trial is waived? Could this come back to bite me? I
wonder under what circumstances it could become an issue.


24. THIS AGREEMENT IS COMPOSED OF THIS BACK PAGE, THE FRONT SIDE OF THE
AGREEMENT AND A SEPARATE PAGE WHICH CONTAINS A MANDATORY FLORIDA DISCLOSURE
REGRADING CONSTRUCTION LIEN LAW. AND ALL MATTERS INCORPORATED HEREIN BY
REFERENCE AND SHALL BE CONSIDERED THE ENTIRE AGREEMENT BY THE PARTIES.


Any thoughts?


What I'm looking for is if you feel these seem like normal, reasonable
provisions or if you see anything that's questionable.

Thanks for all shared wisdom.

"Doc" wrote

Any thoughts?

I'll be brief, run, don't walk away from this company.

There are many problems with this contract, and a lot of them you already
picked up on by questioning certain areas.

20. THE COMPANY'S MONETARY DAMAGE LIABILITY FOR ANY CLAIM OF PROPERTY DAMAGE
ARISING OUT OF THE COMPANY'S PERFORMANCE OR NON-PERFORMANCE OF THIS
AGREEMENTSHALL NOT EXCEED THE TOTAL AGREEMENT AMOUNT.

To me, this alone is enough to say "No Thanks".
As I read it, they are saying they are only liable for any damages they
cause, to the amount that you have agreed to pay them for their work.

So if they set fire to your house, and youve agreed to a 10k contract,
well, they are liable for 10k in dmaages, nothign more.

That is how i read it , anyway.

"Doc" wrote in message
news
I'm in Florida working on getting post-hurricane repairs
made to my house.
Replacement of the roof, drywall replacement in several
rooms and full house
carpet replacement.

I've found a General Contractor who says they can do the
work. They left an
agreement with me to sign before they'll begin any contact
with the
Insurance company. I realize many of you aren't attornies
but am hoping some
have had experience with this sort of issue and see what you
think about
some points on the agreement - under each I'll include any
questions
concerns about the point. If you see something, by all means
speak up. By
the way, sorry for the all caps, but I did this by OCR off
my scanner. It
would take forever to type it all:

3. SHOULD DEFAULT BE MADE IN PAYMENT OF THIS AGREEMENT FOR
MORE THAN
FIFTEEN DAYS, A LATE CHARGE EQUAL TO FIVE PERCENT OF THE
AMOUNT DUE PLUS
INTEREST FROM THE DATE THEREOF AT A RATE OF ONE AND ONE-HALF
(1 1/2) PERCENT
PER MONTH (18 PER ANNUM) OR SUCH MAXIMUM AMOUNT ALLOWED BY
LAW, AND IF
PLACED IN THE HANDS OF AN ATTORNEY FOR COLLECTION. ALL
ALLOWABLE ATTORNEY'S
FEES AND LEGAL AND FILING FEES SHALL BE PAID BY THE
CUSTOMER.


I wonder about coordination of money from the Insurance
company vs when the
contractor is going to be doing the work. Do they normally
not begin work
until the insurance company has agreed to the costs?


thats variable...beware though florida is not famous for
great contractors. Some exist no doubt but thats the main
issue.. the contractor personally.. not the paper work.




6. COMPANY RESERVES THE RIGHT TO REVOKE THIS PROPOSAL 90
DAYS FROM DATE
ACCEPTED. AFTER 90 DAYS, COMPANY RESERVES THE RIGHT TO
REVISE ITS PRICE IN
ACCORDANCE WITH COSTS IN EFFECT AT THE TIME.

a red flag... valid if the work is never started...but once
started a way to screw to the wall..Ive never seen such a
clause before...that takes guts.

So far this contractor has lost big points with me on this
clause alone. its a set up as i see it.


Is what they're saying is that they can back out any time up
to 90 days or
that it's only good for 90 days?

Its weasly in many aspects.. unclear is always
bad..especially when it allows for escallation explicitly.




7. THE COMPANY SHALL NOT BE LIABLE FOR FAILURE OF
PERFORMANCE DUE TO LABOR
CONTROVERSIES, STRIKES, FIRES, WEATHER, INABILITY TO OBTAIN
MATERIALS FROM
USUAL SOURCES, OR ANY OTHER CIRCUMSTANCES BEYOND THE CONTROL
OF THE COMPANY,
WHETHER OF A SIMILAR OR DISSIMILAR NATURE.


Reasonable by itself...combined with the other clauses
probably a ticking time bomb. I doubt if the contractor
has a solid local reputation.. if thats the case, this would
be one to avoid.




I wonder what constitutes a "labor controversy"?

"Joey tells Billy to phuck off" 'so we were short crew,
and yer job had to wait'.... vague legal wording in a legal
document is a boquet of red flags..thats done deliberately by
someone who wants access to your money.





11. IF THIS AGREEMENT IS CANCELLED BY THE CUSTOMER, CUSTOMER
SHALL PAY TO
THE COMPANY TWENTY-FIVE PERCENT (25) OF THE TOTAL AGREEMENT
AMOUNT AS
LIQUIDATED DAMAGES, NOT AS A PENALTY, AND THE COMPANY AGREES
TO ACCEPT SUCH
AS A REASONABLE AND JUST COMPENSATION FOR SAID CANCELLATION.
THE PARTIES
ACKNOWLEDGE AND AGREE THAT DAMAGES THE COMPANY MIGHT
REASONABLY ANTIC-
IPATE IN THE EVENT OF A BREACH OF THIS AGREEMENT BY
CUSTOMER(S) WILL BE
DIFFICULT TO ASCERTAIN AND THE AMOUNT STIPULATED HEREIN IS A
REASONABLE
ESTIMATE OF SUCH DAMAGES.

What if they keep stalling on work and I get sick of waiting
for them and
want to look for someone else?

Thats not even reasonable..lack of time frame makes it
almost a total fraud. I know of no decent contractor who
would employ these tactics, especially in combination.

If you want to jerk this guys chain ask for a list of
satisfied customers that you can go *visit, look at the work
and talk to... watch him go balistic with outrage...a way to
discourage further inquiry.


12. PAYMENT SCHEDULE: DEDUCTIBLE DUE UPON INSURANCE PROVIDER
APPROVAL. FIFTY
PERCENT (50) OF THE TOTAL AGREEMENT AMOUNT DUE UPON DATE OF
DELIVERY OF
APPLICABLE MATERIALS. BALANCE DUE UPON COMPLETION OF WORK.
ALL PAYMENTS MUST
BE MADE TO THE COMPANY. ONLY PAYMENTS MADE TO AND RECEIVED
BY THE COMPANY
WILL BE CONSIDERED TO SATISFY THE PAYMENT OF THIS AGREEMENT.
PAYMENT
SCHEDULE SHALL NOT BE AMENDED WITHOUT THE PRIOR WRITTEN
APPROVAL OF THE
COMPANY.


Is this normal? Btw, it's not quite what the contractor's
rep said when he
came to do a preliminary look-see. He said on the roof that
they get 1/3
when they get the materials, 1/3 when they "start driving
nails" and 1/3
when I was happy with the job.


Another set of red flags ..


15. DURING THE DURATION OF THE WORK, THE CUSTOMER'S
HOMEOWNERS INSURANCE
WILL BE RESPONSIBLE FOR ANY INTERIOR DAMAGE AS LONG AS THE
COMPANY HAS TAKEN
APPROPRIATE ACTION TO PROTECT THE ROOF DURING THE REPAIR OF
THE ROOF.


When could this be an issue?


its weasly. weasly is not what one is looking for in a
contractor..but thats probably close to the florida standard.
You might do better running an ad for escaped felons.




17. THE COMPANY IS NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR PRE-EXISTING
CONSTRUCTION
DEFICIENCIES THAT MANIFEST THEMSELVES DURING THE
CONSTRUCTION PROCESS, I.E.
NAIL POPS, WOODROT, DECKING DEFLECTION, ETC. IF A
CONSTRUCTION PROBLEM IS
POINTED OUT PRIOR TO CONSTRUCTION AND COMPANY IS NOTIFIED IN
WRITING,
COMPANY WILL TRY TO ASSIST CUSTOMER TO CORRECT THE
PROBLEM(S) ON A TIME AND
MATERIAL BASIS.

Reasonable sounding but with traps.. ALL decking deflects..
how much is another issue. Not stated its an obvious trap..
after they get the roof torn off they will find issues and
'deflection' to fix it will cost another 5 or 10k etc. If you
dont go for that they pull off the job and collect their 25%
plus, and keep all other amounts you paid.

Go talk to a national chain has a reputation to protect..see
what they quote you.




They seem to be referring largely to decks here which isn't
an issue in my
case, but what is a "nail pop"? Any way it could apply to a
roofing job?

anything can be made to apply...if you dont like it you can
hire an attorney for 5 or 10k...they know thats not viable for
you..so you will pay a bunch of 2 to 5k extra's until you
finally go nutz.



19. COMPANY ACCEPTS NO LIABILITY TO INDEMNIFY OR HOLD
CUSTOMER HARMLESS FOR
DAMAGES TO PERSONS OR PROPERTY, EXCEPT THOSE THAT ARE THE
DIRECT RESULT OF
COMPANY'S NEGLIGENT ERROR OR OMISSION WHICH OCCUR DURING
PERFORMANCE OF THE
COMPANY'S WORK. COMPANY DISCLAIMS ANY AND ALL LIABILITY FOR
DAMAGES TO
PERSONS OR PROPERTY RESULTING FROM MOLD GROWTH WITHIN ANY
PART OF THE
BUILDING ENVELOPE DUE TO MOISTURE ENTERING THE BUILDING
ENVELOPE PRIOR TO
COMPANY'S COMPLETION OF INSTALLATION OF THE ROOF
SYSTEMS/MEMBRANE, SIDING,
WINDOW AND GUTTER SYSTEMS OR AS THE RESULT OF DAMAGE TO OR
PENETRATION OF
THE INSTALLED ROOF SYSTEMS/MEMBRANE, SIDING, WINDOW AND
GUTTER SYSTEMS BY
OTHERS. CUSTOMER UNDERSTANDS AND AGREES THAT COMPANY SHALL
HAVE NO
RESPONSIBILITY AT ANY TIME AFTER COMPLETION OF THE WORK FOR
DAMAGES OF ANY
KIND TO PERSONS OR PROP
ERTY LOCATED BELOW THE INSTALLED ROOF SYSTEMS/MEMBRANE,
SIDING, WINDOW AND
GUTTER SYSTEMS, WHETHER OR NOT SUCH DAMAGES RESULT FROM (A)
LEAKS OR
WEATHER-ORIENTED SOURCES OR (B) MOLD GROWTH.


Any problems here?

By itself, no problems.. a simple cya clause. except for the
first few lines regarding owner liability for damages, say one
of their men trips on your sidewalk.. that can be arranged...
this contractor says you are liable.

Decent outfits dont use contracts in this way.



20. THE COMPANY'S MONETARY DAMAGE LIABILITY FOR ANY CLAIM OF
PROPERTY DAMAGE
ARISING OUT OF THE COMPANY'S PERFORMANCE OR NON-PERFORMANCE
OF THIS
AGREEMENTSHALL NOT EXCEED THE TOTAL AGREEMENT AMOUNT.

Thats legitimate.. other legitimate clauses are often used
as smoke to distract from the bogus ones.




I'm fuzzy on what's considered "the total agreement amount".

Since anyone signing this paper agrees to whatever escallation
etc the contractor wants.. it is vague..deliberately. Makes
it so no decent attorney would touch the case...so you pay
whatever or they put a lien on your house.



23. FLORIDA LAW APPLIES TO THIS AGREEMENT. ANY LEGAL
PROCEEDING RELATING TO
THIS AGREEMENT SHALL BE FILED EXCLUSIVELY WITH THE COUNTY OR
CIRCUIT COURT
OF ORANGE COUNTY, FL. THE RIGHT TO JURY TRIAL IS WAIVED.

The right to a jury trial is waived? Could this come back to
bite me?

Oh ya...


I
wonder under what circumstances it could become an issue.


Dealing with these guys would be the negative circumstance.



24. THIS AGREEMENT IS COMPOSED OF THIS BACK PAGE, THE FRONT
SIDE OF THE
AGREEMENT AND A SEPARATE PAGE WHICH CONTAINS A MANDATORY
FLORIDA DISCLOSURE
REGRADING CONSTRUCTION LIEN LAW. AND ALL MATTERS
INCORPORATED HEREIN BY
REFERENCE AND SHALL BE CONSIDERED THE ENTIRE AGREEMENT BY
THE PARTIES.


Any thoughts?

A nasty, bogus, tricky contract that nails you squarely to the
wall if you sign it and leaves you wide open for a rip off.

I wouldnt deal with this guy myself.

Here is the deal... on a job like you have, an honest gross
is in the 30 to 50% range...net way less than half that.. the
job is not real big in the first place, lets say 30k...so the
guy is looking at a legitimate profit of 5 to 7k.

He can double or triple the net profit with just a little
fudging. His contract sets that up for him.




What I'm looking for is if you feel these seem like normal,
reasonable
provisions or if you see anything that's questionable.

Thanks for all shared wisdom.


You will find the decent guys are backlogged for years in
florida..those that can 'do the job now'... then present this
kind of contract are in business to rip off as much as
possible, you will be lucky to get the work done, let alone
well.

that is not the interest of these sorts of people.

imo


Phil Scott

Don't be a fool. Don't sign the contract.

The American Institute of Architects (I think that's their name) has a
standard language contract form for large projects like yours. It covers
just about all of the key issues, and isn't a one-sided ripoff contract like
the one presented to you by the general contractor. If you do a google
search, you can probably find it online, or find out where you can get it.
I think there is a modest cost for the conract form, but it's worth it.

"Doc" wrote in message
news
I'm in Florida working on getting post-hurricane repairs made to my house.
Replacement of the roof, drywall replacement in several rooms and full
house
carpet replacement.

I've found a General Contractor who says they can do the work. They left
an
agreement with me to sign before they'll begin any contact with the
Insurance company. I realize many of you aren't attornies but am hoping
some
have had experience with this sort of issue and see what you think about
some points on the agreement - under each I'll include any questions
concerns about the point. If you see something, by all means speak up. By
the way, sorry for the all caps, but I did this by OCR off my scanner. It
would take forever to type it all:

3. SHOULD DEFAULT BE MADE IN PAYMENT OF THIS AGREEMENT FOR MORE THAN
FIFTEEN DAYS, A LATE CHARGE EQUAL TO FIVE PERCENT OF THE AMOUNT DUE PLUS
INTEREST FROM THE DATE THEREOF AT A RATE OF ONE AND ONE-HALF (1 1/2)
PERCENT
PER MONTH (18 PER ANNUM) OR SUCH MAXIMUM AMOUNT ALLOWED BY LAW, AND IF
PLACED IN THE HANDS OF AN ATTORNEY FOR COLLECTION. ALL ALLOWABLE
ATTORNEY'S
FEES AND LEGAL AND FILING FEES SHALL BE PAID BY THE CUSTOMER.


I wonder about coordination of money from the Insurance company vs when
the
contractor is going to be doing the work. Do they normally not begin work
until the insurance company has agreed to the costs?


6. COMPANY RESERVES THE RIGHT TO REVOKE THIS PROPOSAL 90 DAYS FROM DATE
ACCEPTED. AFTER 90 DAYS, COMPANY RESERVES THE RIGHT TO REVISE ITS PRICE IN
ACCORDANCE WITH COSTS IN EFFECT AT THE TIME.

Is what they're saying is that they can back out any time up to 90 days or
that it's only good for 90 days?


7. THE COMPANY SHALL NOT BE LIABLE FOR FAILURE OF PERFORMANCE DUE TO
LABOR
CONTROVERSIES, STRIKES, FIRES, WEATHER, INABILITY TO OBTAIN MATERIALS FROM
USUAL SOURCES, OR ANY OTHER CIRCUMSTANCES BEYOND THE CONTROL OF THE
COMPANY,
WHETHER OF A SIMILAR OR DISSIMILAR NATURE.


I wonder what constitutes a "labor controversy"?


11. IF THIS AGREEMENT IS CANCELLED BY THE CUSTOMER, CUSTOMER SHALL PAY TO
THE COMPANY TWENTY-FIVE PERCENT (25) OF THE TOTAL AGREEMENT AMOUNT AS
LIQUIDATED DAMAGES, NOT AS A PENALTY, AND THE COMPANY AGREES TO ACCEPT
SUCH
AS A REASONABLE AND JUST COMPENSATION FOR SAID CANCELLATION. THE PARTIES
ACKNOWLEDGE AND AGREE THAT DAMAGES THE COMPANY MIGHT REASONABLY ANTIC-
IPATE IN THE EVENT OF A BREACH OF THIS AGREEMENT BY CUSTOMER(S) WILL BE
DIFFICULT TO ASCERTAIN AND THE AMOUNT STIPULATED HEREIN IS A REASONABLE
ESTIMATE OF SUCH DAMAGES.

What if they keep stalling on work and I get sick of waiting for them and
want to look for someone else?

12. PAYMENT SCHEDULE: DEDUCTIBLE DUE UPON INSURANCE PROVIDER APPROVAL.
FIFTY
PERCENT (50) OF THE TOTAL AGREEMENT AMOUNT DUE UPON DATE OF DELIVERY OF
APPLICABLE MATERIALS. BALANCE DUE UPON COMPLETION OF WORK. ALL PAYMENTS
MUST
BE MADE TO THE COMPANY. ONLY PAYMENTS MADE TO AND RECEIVED BY THE COMPANY
WILL BE CONSIDERED TO SATISFY THE PAYMENT OF THIS AGREEMENT. PAYMENT
SCHEDULE SHALL NOT BE AMENDED WITHOUT THE PRIOR WRITTEN APPROVAL OF THE
COMPANY.


Is this normal? Btw, it's not quite what the contractor's rep said when he
came to do a preliminary look-see. He said on the roof that they get 1/3
when they get the materials, 1/3 when they "start driving nails" and 1/3
when I was happy with the job.


15. DURING THE DURATION OF THE WORK, THE CUSTOMER'S HOMEOWNERS INSURANCE
WILL BE RESPONSIBLE FOR ANY INTERIOR DAMAGE AS LONG AS THE COMPANY HAS
TAKEN
APPROPRIATE ACTION TO PROTECT THE ROOF DURING THE REPAIR OF THE ROOF.


When could this be an issue?


17. THE COMPANY IS NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR PRE-EXISTING CONSTRUCTION
DEFICIENCIES THAT MANIFEST THEMSELVES DURING THE CONSTRUCTION PROCESS,
I.E.
NAIL POPS, WOODROT, DECKING DEFLECTION, ETC. IF A CONSTRUCTION PROBLEM IS
POINTED OUT PRIOR TO CONSTRUCTION AND COMPANY IS NOTIFIED IN WRITING,
COMPANY WILL TRY TO ASSIST CUSTOMER TO CORRECT THE PROBLEM(S) ON A TIME
AND
MATERIAL BASIS.


They seem to be referring largely to decks here which isn't an issue in my
case, but what is a "nail pop"? Any way it could apply to a roofing job?

19. COMPANY ACCEPTS NO LIABILITY TO INDEMNIFY OR HOLD CUSTOMER HARMLESS
FOR
DAMAGES TO PERSONS OR PROPERTY, EXCEPT THOSE THAT ARE THE DIRECT RESULT OF
COMPANY'S NEGLIGENT ERROR OR OMISSION WHICH OCCUR DURING PERFORMANCE OF
THE
COMPANY'S WORK. COMPANY DISCLAIMS ANY AND ALL LIABILITY FOR DAMAGES TO
PERSONS OR PROPERTY RESULTING FROM MOLD GROWTH WITHIN ANY PART OF THE
BUILDING ENVELOPE DUE TO MOISTURE ENTERING THE BUILDING ENVELOPE PRIOR TO
COMPANY'S COMPLETION OF INSTALLATION OF THE ROOF SYSTEMS/MEMBRANE, SIDING,
WINDOW AND GUTTER SYSTEMS OR AS THE RESULT OF DAMAGE TO OR PENETRATION OF
THE INSTALLED ROOF SYSTEMS/MEMBRANE, SIDING, WINDOW AND GUTTER SYSTEMS BY
OTHERS. CUSTOMER UNDERSTANDS AND AGREES THAT COMPANY SHALL HAVE NO
RESPONSIBILITY AT ANY TIME AFTER COMPLETION OF THE WORK FOR DAMAGES OF ANY
KIND TO PERSONS OR PROP
ERTY LOCATED BELOW THE INSTALLED ROOF SYSTEMS/MEMBRANE, SIDING, WINDOW AND
GUTTER SYSTEMS, WHETHER OR NOT SUCH DAMAGES RESULT FROM (A) LEAKS OR
WEATHER-ORIENTED SOURCES OR (B) MOLD GROWTH.


Any problems here?


20. THE COMPANY'S MONETARY DAMAGE LIABILITY FOR ANY CLAIM OF PROPERTY
DAMAGE
ARISING OUT OF THE COMPANY'S PERFORMANCE OR NON-PERFORMANCE OF THIS
AGREEMENTSHALL NOT EXCEED THE TOTAL AGREEMENT AMOUNT.


I'm fuzzy on what's considered "the total agreement amount".


23. FLORIDA LAW APPLIES TO THIS AGREEMENT. ANY LEGAL PROCEEDING RELATING
TO
THIS AGREEMENT SHALL BE FILED EXCLUSIVELY WITH THE COUNTY OR CIRCUIT COURT
OF ORANGE COUNTY, FL. THE RIGHT TO JURY TRIAL IS WAIVED.

The right to a jury trial is waived? Could this come back to bite me? I
wonder under what circumstances it could become an issue.


24. THIS AGREEMENT IS COMPOSED OF THIS BACK PAGE, THE FRONT SIDE OF THE
AGREEMENT AND A SEPARATE PAGE WHICH CONTAINS A MANDATORY FLORIDA
DISCLOSURE
REGRADING CONSTRUCTION LIEN LAW. AND ALL MATTERS INCORPORATED HEREIN BY
REFERENCE AND SHALL BE CONSIDERED THE ENTIRE AGREEMENT BY THE PARTIES.


Any thoughts?


What I'm looking for is if you feel these seem like normal, reasonable
provisions or if you see anything that's questionable.

Thanks for all shared wisdom.

"Doc" wrote in message
news k.net...
I'm in Florida working on getting post-hurricane
repairs made to my house.
Any thoughts?


Find another contractor. One who can bid the job
right. And reserve final payment untill you pass
final inspection.

Here are two links for buying AIA construction contract forms:

http://www.stevensness.com/store/bro...ry&category=53



http://www.thecontractorsgroup.com/aia-forms.htm




"T-Jay" wrote in message
...
Don't be a fool. Don't sign the contract.

The American Institute of Architects (I think that's their name) has a
standard language contract form for large projects like yours. It covers
just about all of the key issues, and isn't a one-sided ripoff contract
like the one presented to you by the general contractor. If you do a
google search, you can probably find it online, or find out where you can
get it. I think there is a modest cost for the conract form, but it's
worth it.

"Doc" wrote in message

I've found a General Contractor who says they can do the work. They left
an
agreement with me to sign before they'll begin any contact with the
Insurance company. I realize many of you aren't attornies but am hoping
some
have had experience with this sort of issue and see what you think about
some points on the agreement -

In spite of the comments of others, more important than the language of the
contract is the reputation of the contractor. Most of the clauses are
standard language stuff from the Commercial Code. Read the back of most
company purchase orders and you find this type of thing and in all my years
in the business world, none have ever been enforced. You get the
merchandise, you pay for it, everyone is happy. Problems? Discuss and
resolve.

You can take this to your lawyer and pay him hundreds, maybe thousands of
dollars to negotiate a different set, or, you find another contractor.
Check his reputation. Nothing is more important.

"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote
Most of the clauses are
standard language stuff from the Commercial Code.


Tell me you're kidding. There is nothing standard about the parts below.

" 3. SHOULD DEFAULT BE MADE IN PAYMENT OF THIS AGREEMENT FOR MORE THAN
FIFTEEN DAYS, A LATE CHARGE EQUAL TO FIVE PERCENT"

This next one, would be worthwhile to forward to the State Attorney General.
They think they're clever by putting the "not as a penalty", where as it is
a penalty, and not allowed in any state.

"11. IF THIS AGREEMENT IS CANCELLED BY THE CUSTOMER, CUSTOMER SHALL PAY TO
THE COMPANY TWENTY-FIVE PERCENT (25) OF THE TOTAL AGREEMENT AMOUNT AS
LIQUIDATED DAMAGES, NOT AS A PENALTY, AND THE COMPANY AGREES TO ACCEPT SUCH
AS A REASONABLE AND JUST COMPENSATION FOR SAID CANCELLATION."

Simply outrageous, put in to leave the owner holding the bag.

"15. DURING THE DURATION OF THE WORK, THE CUSTOMER'S HOMEOWNERS INSURANCE
WILL BE RESPONSIBLE FOR ANY INTERIOR DAMAGE AS LONG AS THE COMPANY HAS TAKEN
APPROPRIATE ACTION TO PROTECT THE ROOF DURING THE REPAIR OF THE ROOF."

The customer is supposed to point out wood rot? That's an obligation by the
construction crew, to notify the consumer of problems. Nail pops can show
up after the new roof, because the nails weren't driven properly. This
clause is a go-ahead to rip off the consumer.

"17. THE COMPANY IS NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR PRE-EXISTING CONSTRUCTION
DEFICIENCIES THAT MANIFEST THEMSELVES DURING THE CONSTRUCTION PROCESS, I.E.
NAIL POPS, WOODROT, DECKING DEFLECTION, ETC. IF A CONSTRUCTION PROBLEM IS
POINTED OUT PRIOR TO CONSTRUCTION AND COMPANY IS NOTIFIED IN WRITING,
COMPANY WILL TRY TO ASSIST CUSTOMER TO CORRECT THE PROBLEM(S) ON A TIME AND
MATERIAL BASIS."

This pretty much states no implied warranty what-so-ever. In other words,
the consumer is SOL, and they do less than desirable workmanship.

"19. COMPANY ACCEPTS NO LIABILITY TO INDEMNIFY OR HOLD CUSTOMER HARMLESS FOR
DAMAGES TO PERSONS OR PROPERTY, EXCEPT THOSE THAT ARE THE DIRECT RESULT OF
COMPANY'S NEGLIGENT ERROR OR OMISSION WHICH OCCUR DURING PERFORMANCE OF THE
COMPANY'S WORK. COMPANY DISCLAIMS ANY AND ALL LIABILITY FOR DAMAGES TO
PERSONS OR PROPERTY RESULTING FROM MOLD GROWTH WITHIN ANY PART OF THE
BUILDING ENVELOPE DUE TO MOISTURE ENTERING THE BUILDING ENVELOPE PRIOR TO
COMPANY'S COMPLETION OF INSTALLATION OF THE ROOF SYSTEMS/MEMBRANE, SIDING,
WINDOW AND GUTTER SYSTEMS OR AS THE RESULT OF DAMAGE TO OR PENETRATION OF
THE INSTALLED ROOF SYSTEMS/MEMBRANE, SIDING, WINDOW AND GUTTER SYSTEMS BY
OTHERS. CUSTOMER UNDERSTANDS AND AGREES THAT COMPANY SHALL HAVE NO
RESPONSIBILITY AT ANY TIME AFTER COMPLETION OF THE WORK FOR DAMAGES OF ANY
KIND TO PERSONS OR PROP
ERTY LOCATED BELOW THE INSTALLED ROOF SYSTEMS/MEMBRANE, SIDING, WINDOW AND
GUTTER SYSTEMS, WHETHER OR NOT SUCH DAMAGES RESULT FROM (A) LEAKS OR
WEATHER-ORIENTED SOURCES OR (B) MOLD GROWTH."

What's the potential damage which can occur above agreement.....priceless.

"20. THE COMPANY'S MONETARY DAMAGE LIABILITY FOR ANY CLAIM OF PROPERTY
DAMAGE
ARISING OUT OF THE COMPANY'S PERFORMANCE OR NON-PERFORMANCE OF THIS
AGREEMENTSHALL NOT EXCEED THE TOTAL AGREEMENT AMOUNT."

I particularly like this, give up your constitutional rights.

"23. FLORIDA LAW APPLIES TO THIS AGREEMENT. ANY LEGAL PROCEEDING RELATING TO
THIS AGREEMENT SHALL BE FILED EXCLUSIVELY WITH THE COUNTY OR CIRCUIT COURT
OF ORANGE COUNTY, FL. THE RIGHT TO JURY TRIAL IS WAIVED."

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
"Doc" wrote in message

I've found a General Contractor who says they can do the work. They left
an
agreement with me to sign before they'll begin any contact with the
Insurance company. I realize many of you aren't attornies but am hoping
some
have had experience with this sort of issue and see what you think about
some points on the agreement -

In spite of the comments of others, more important than the language of the
contract is the reputation of the contractor. Most of the clauses are
standard language stuff from the Commercial Code. Read the back of most
company purchase orders and you find this type of thing and in all my years
in the business world, none have ever been enforced. You get the
merchandise, you pay for it, everyone is happy. Problems? Discuss and
resolve.

You can take this to your lawyer and pay him hundreds, maybe thousands of
dollars to negotiate a different set, or, you find another contractor.
Check his reputation. Nothing is more important.

I have to disagree with you on this one. A reputation deals with the
past, a contract with the future. The best contractor can run into
problems. I don't think the guy in question is one of the best. Check
with the BBB and state licensing bureau - I'm sure the guy has plenty
of complaints, or take Phil's advice and ask for a list of satisfied
clients that you can contact and inspect the jobs. The guy will
disappear on you - guaranteed.

Most of those clauses are close enough to normal to seem innocuous on
first reading. But they aren't vague at all. They're specifically
written to remove all responsibility and give the weasel, errrr,
contractor, room to "maneuver". It's a scam contract, pure and simple.
If the contractor didn't give you a tube of KY when he delivered the
contract, he's no gentleman.

R

Doc writes:

I'm in Florida working on getting post-hurricane repairs made to my
house. Replacement of the roof, drywall replacement in several rooms
and full house carpet replacement.

Contracts are for the benefit of the contractor, not you.

You will never get anything enforced for your benefit from a contract like
this.

You enforce your side by not paying until the work is done, and done right.

I didn't take the time to read all articles of this agreement. You
should have it checked out by a construction lawyer. It most probably
will cost you to have it done. Suggestion: have the construction work
done as an open bid competative project. Get at least 5 to 10 bids.
That way you have your GC's working to give you the most reasonable
price possible as well as giving you control of the workmanship.
Examine their quotes. Get references. BBB check. And have them give
you project references that you can physically check yourself. This is
a trick I figured out myself. Put a prize and penalty clause in the
contract: the GC is to get a 1% increase of the total bid quote for
finishing for each week prior to established date of completion. And
that the GC will forfeit 1% of the total bid quote for each week of
delay beyond the established date of completion. Make sure there is
also a clause stating that the GC has not declared bankruptcy within
the last 3 yrs. And that neither has any member of his family done so
as officer of his or any other similar businessed company. See to it
that his company has not changed hands under similar circumstances. In
12 yrs of international construction contracting (about one every 3
weeks), I had only one GC that didn't meet his deadline.

For what it's worth, the name of the company is ABC American Building
Contractors - Insurance Restoration Services, Inc. According to the field
rep who I talked to, they're supposedly a national company. Anyone ever
heard of / dealt with them? I originally heard of them when a guy came
around going through the neighborhood with door hangers.

"Doc" wrote in message

I originally heard of them when a guy came
around going through the neighborhood with door hangers.

Right now, in Florida, every reputable contractor is busy as can be with
hurricane damage. None have to go around and advertise with door hangars.
I'd pass on them.

Disaster Chasers, most likely.
Pick up teams of workers that float around after disasters.
Charleston SC saw a lot of bad work after Hugo.
I waited about 18 months to get my roof permanently repaired and my
ceilings rebuilt.
It was worth it.
TB

"Doc" wrote in message
news


They seem to be referring largely to decks here which isn't an issue in my
case, but what is a "nail pop"? Any way it could apply to a roofing job?


You can have nail pops on a roof. The nail head pops up through the
shingle. In most cases they occur because a nail was missed when the roof
was stripped. The other area for nail pops that no one has mentioned is
drywall nail pops. It is possible to have nail pops in your drywall ceiling
as a result of a roofing job.

Nail pops that occur in a new drywall job are usually, but not always, the
result of the nail not being properly set. Most drywall guys try to limit
the recalls because a lot of consumers abuse the contractor by calling them
out a year after the work to fix a few nail pops and then wanting a new
paint job out of the repair.

I agree with the others who responded. RUN, don't just walk away from this
company.

The poster who provided the links to the "standard" contracts gave you some
good links.

Colbyt

wrote in message
ups.com...
Get at least 5 to 10 bids.
That way you have your GC's working to give you the most reasonable
price possible as well as giving you control of the workmanship.

Not criticising your advice, but the OP is in Florida where there h s been a
lot of hurricane damage. He's lucky to get two contractors to even look at
the job let alone 5 or 10. Therein lies the problem. Lots of undesirables
out to make a quick buck.


Examine their quotes. Get references.

This is the most important aspect of the job. If the guy is good, well
established and has a good reputation you will have satisfactory completion.

Checking the Florida Department of State website (
http://www.tinyurl.com/atwbg ) I see in their Articles of Incorporation that
their business activity should be limited to "roofing, siding and gutters."

Additionally, I do NOT find any listing for them as a licensed contractor on
the DBPR website (what is their license #???)
( https://www.myfloridalicense.com/Default.asp )

The following document from myflorida.com gives some good tips (avoid
door-to-door peddlers, etc.)
http://www.myflorida.com/dbpr/dbpr/n...home_jan04.pdf

Most importantly, the contract, by law, should have the contractor's license
number on it and you should demand a "Certificate of Insurance" from the
contractor's workman's comp and general liablity carrier. Note the carrier
provides it to you directly upon the contractor's request to them.

Are you still seeking repairs from the '04 storms?

"Doc" wrote in message
nk.net...
For what it's worth, the name of the company is ABC American Building
Contractors - Insurance Restoration Services, Inc. According to the
field
rep who I talked to, they're supposedly a national company. Anyone ever
heard of / dealt with them? I originally heard of them when a guy came
around going through the neighborhood with door hangers.

"rj" wrote in message
. ..

Checking the Florida Department of State website (
http://www.tinyurl.com/atwbg ) I see in their Articles of Incorporation
that
their business activity should be limited to "roofing, siding and
gutters."

Hmm. I was under the impression that general contractors in Florida can do
the whole house if they have a roofers license. In fact, the insurance
company strongly urges getting a general contractor so they can handle it
all - roof, carpet, drywall. These people supposedly are a general
contractor.


Additionally, I do NOT find any listing for them as a licensed contractor
on
the DBPR website (what is their license #???)

CGC1507721

( https://www.myfloridalicense.com/Default.asp )

The following document from myflorida.com gives some good tips (avoid
door-to-door peddlers, etc.)

http://www.myflorida.com/dbpr/dbpr/n...home_jan04.pdf

Most importantly, the contract, by law, should have the contractor's
license
number on it and you should demand a "Certificate of Insurance" from the
contractor's workman's comp and general liablity carrier. Note the carrier
provides it to you directly upon the contractor's request to them.

Are you still seeking repairs from the '04 storms?

Yes.

By the way, for anyone reading this, I appreciate all the input.

"Colbyt" wrote in message
news:eoKHe.213051$_o.134561@attbi_s71...

The poster who provided the links to the "standard" contracts gave you
some
good links.

10-4 thanks.

"Ken" wrote in message
...

"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote
Most of the clauses are
standard language stuff from the Commercial Code.

Eds right BTW, but playing Devils Advocate in this post....read on..



Tell me you're kidding. There is nothing standard about the parts below.

" 3. SHOULD DEFAULT BE MADE IN PAYMENT OF THIS AGREEMENT FOR MORE THAN
FIFTEEN DAYS, A LATE CHARGE EQUAL TO FIVE PERCENT"

5% isnt high. There are contracts here that allow up to 25% of the total to
be added.
Your contractor isnt a bank, therefore, he wants his money too.

This next one, would be worthwhile to forward to the State Attorney
General.
They think they're clever by putting the "not as a penalty", where as it
is
a penalty, and not allowed in any state.


Its allowed here...sorry.
Therefore, where do you get off saying its not allowed in any state? If I go
buy $100,000 of parts and supplies on a contract that was signed by you, and
you break the contract cause the weather changed, then damn right you are
gonna pay something.



"11. IF THIS AGREEMENT IS CANCELLED BY THE CUSTOMER, CUSTOMER SHALL PAY TO
THE COMPANY TWENTY-FIVE PERCENT (25) OF THE TOTAL AGREEMENT AMOUNT AS
LIQUIDATED DAMAGES, NOT AS A PENALTY, AND THE COMPANY AGREES TO ACCEPT
SUCH
AS A REASONABLE AND JUST COMPENSATION FOR SAID CANCELLATION."


So..if the contractor goes out and buys materials that he will be charged at
least 25% restocking fees on should you cancel, or worse yet, be unable to
return, you just potentially screwed the hell out of him.


Simply outrageous, put in to leave the owner holding the bag.

"15. DURING THE DURATION OF THE WORK, THE CUSTOMER'S HOMEOWNERS INSURANCE
WILL BE RESPONSIBLE FOR ANY INTERIOR DAMAGE AS LONG AS THE COMPANY HAS
TAKEN
APPROPRIATE ACTION TO PROTECT THE ROOF DURING THE REPAIR OF THE ROOF."

Nope. Thats called what your homeowners insurance is for. If the roofs
already missing off your home, and the contractor starts work on it, and you
get another storm, you are going to hold the contractor liable for anything
that happens after he starts work?
Wrong.
The way I read it is simple:
So long as his company took action to keep rain from entering, be it tarps,
more plywood laid over etc....and you get another storm, and you get a leak
that takes out your new $2000 widescreen, hes not gonna pay for it.
Nor should he.



The customer is supposed to point out wood rot? That's an obligation by
the
construction crew, to notify the consumer of problems. Nail pops can show
up after the new roof, because the nails weren't driven properly. This
clause is a go-ahead to rip off the consumer.

"17. THE COMPANY IS NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR PRE-EXISTING CONSTRUCTION
DEFICIENCIES THAT MANIFEST THEMSELVES DURING THE CONSTRUCTION PROCESS,
I.E.
NAIL POPS, WOODROT, DECKING DEFLECTION, ETC. IF A CONSTRUCTION PROBLEM IS
POINTED OUT PRIOR TO CONSTRUCTION AND COMPANY IS NOTIFIED IN WRITING,
COMPANY WILL TRY TO ASSIST CUSTOMER TO CORRECT THE PROBLEM(S) ON A TIME
AND
MATERIAL BASIS."


Here, that would be called a hidden damage clause. Meaning, that if during
the course of the work, any hidden damage is found that was not quoted for
repair due to it not being able to be seen, then the contractor stops and
allows the customer to make up his mind as to what and how to proceed, after
of course, IF needed requoting.


This pretty much states no implied warranty what-so-ever. In other words,
the consumer is SOL, and they do less than desirable workmanship.

"19. COMPANY ACCEPTS NO LIABILITY TO INDEMNIFY OR HOLD CUSTOMER HARMLESS
FOR
DAMAGES TO PERSONS OR PROPERTY, EXCEPT THOSE THAT ARE THE DIRECT RESULT OF
COMPANY'S NEGLIGENT ERROR OR OMISSION WHICH OCCUR DURING PERFORMANCE OF
THE
COMPANY'S WORK. COMPANY DISCLAIMS ANY AND ALL LIABILITY FOR DAMAGES TO
PERSONS OR PROPERTY RESULTING FROM MOLD GROWTH WITHIN ANY PART OF THE
BUILDING ENVELOPE DUE TO MOISTURE ENTERING THE BUILDING ENVELOPE PRIOR TO
COMPANY'S COMPLETION OF INSTALLATION OF THE ROOF SYSTEMS/MEMBRANE, SIDING,
WINDOW AND GUTTER SYSTEMS OR AS THE RESULT OF DAMAGE TO OR PENETRATION OF
THE INSTALLED ROOF SYSTEMS/MEMBRANE, SIDING, WINDOW AND GUTTER SYSTEMS BY
OTHERS. CUSTOMER UNDERSTANDS AND AGREES THAT COMPANY SHALL HAVE NO
RESPONSIBILITY AT ANY TIME AFTER COMPLETION OF THE WORK FOR DAMAGES OF ANY
KIND TO PERSONS OR PROP
ERTY LOCATED BELOW THE INSTALLED ROOF SYSTEMS/MEMBRANE, SIDING, WINDOW AND
GUTTER SYSTEMS, WHETHER OR NOT SUCH DAMAGES RESULT FROM (A) LEAKS OR
WEATHER-ORIENTED SOURCES OR (B) MOLD GROWTH."


Thats a lawyers way of inserting a mold protection clause.
Mold is the new asbestoes of the new era, and you will find something like
that on most every contractors forms, unless hes wanting to find that one
person who would go sue for millions over something that was in his house
before, and he just didnt have the circumstances prevaliant for it to
manifest itself.


What's the potential damage which can occur above agreement.....priceless.

"20. THE COMPANY'S MONETARY DAMAGE LIABILITY FOR ANY CLAIM OF PROPERTY
DAMAGE
ARISING OUT OF THE COMPANY'S PERFORMANCE OR NON-PERFORMANCE OF THIS
AGREEMENTSHALL NOT EXCEED THE TOTAL AGREEMENT AMOUNT."


And you checked to see if he had insurance right? What that clause is
stating as I read it, as a contractor, that if you sue, and you already
sound like one that would, HIS outlay of liability isnt going to be more
than the amount you agreed to.
His INSURANCE company on the other hand, isnt listed, and THATS what
insurance is for.





Now, on a more serious note.
Its obvious you dont trust the company, and in general, we dont trust
anyone. The reason why is sue happy people.
Business isnt like it used to be. I still have customers I can take care of
with a handshake and never have to worry about.
Then, you get the new one that you just dont have a good feeling about, and
after years of doing this, there has been more than one time I have told
them that I just didnt think we could satisfy them, and that we declined the
work...only to find out later that another company did the work and they
have had nothing but problems since it was done.

If you dont trust the contractor that has given the quote, just walk away
and dont sign anything.
By the same token, you may find a contractor that after talking to you,
states that he cant do your work, or prices it out of your ballpark. It goes
both ways.

That said, suggest you look around, find someone that has a reputation and
ability that you trust, and then look his contract over. Many of the clauses
in the contract will never apply to you, however, witihout them, that ONE
person that is looking for a reason to try to get rich quick will find a way
to manipulate it to his advantage.

Contracts used to be simple...you wanted work done, the contractor wanted to
do the work and make a living.
Now, due to litigation, most of it bull, since these days everyones sue
happy, even when the works done perfect, contractors have HAD to take steps
to protect themsleves.

Seriously tho...find another one you can live with, and allow them to do the
work. Express your concerns to the owner, or the job super, and make sure
its done your way, but at the same time, make sure you allow them to do it
their way too. Over all, it will work out for you and them...you want a roof
fixed, and they want to fix it and make a profit doing so..its how business
works. If you would see the insurance agreements in most grocery stores for
example, you would never set foot in one again....yet, millions do, and few
ever get hurt..except for the 1% of the legitimate injury cases that
actually hit the courts..
Chances are, you could use that company and never have a problem...but
bottom line, you dont trust them, find another, but keep in mind, they dont
trust you either.

"Carolina Breeze HVAC"

Your comments are attempts to justify an utterly bogus
contract. You are doing this by saying correctly that the
contractor needs protection...while ignoring the obvous fact
the contractor has deprived his customer of the customers
legitimate rights.

Not impressive.

Phil Scott





wrote in message
...

"Ken" wrote in message
...

"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote
Most of the clauses are
standard language stuff from the Commercial Code.

Eds right BTW, but playing Devils Advocate in this
post....read on..



Tell me you're kidding. There is nothing standard about
the parts below.

" 3. SHOULD DEFAULT BE MADE IN PAYMENT OF THIS AGREEMENT
FOR MORE THAN
FIFTEEN DAYS, A LATE CHARGE EQUAL TO FIVE PERCENT"

5% isnt high. There are contracts here that allow up to 25%
of the total to be added.
Your contractor isnt a bank, therefore, he wants his money
too.

This next one, would be worthwhile to forward to the State
Attorney General.
They think they're clever by putting the "not as a
penalty", where as it is
a penalty, and not allowed in any state.


Its allowed here...sorry.
Therefore, where do you get off saying its not allowed in
any state? If I go buy $100,000 of parts and supplies on a
contract that was signed by you, and you break the contract
cause the weather changed, then damn right you are gonna pay
something.



"11. IF THIS AGREEMENT IS CANCELLED BY THE CUSTOMER,
CUSTOMER SHALL PAY TO
THE COMPANY TWENTY-FIVE PERCENT (25) OF THE TOTAL AGREEMENT
AMOUNT AS
LIQUIDATED DAMAGES, NOT AS A PENALTY, AND THE COMPANY
AGREES TO ACCEPT SUCH
AS A REASONABLE AND JUST COMPENSATION FOR SAID
CANCELLATION."


So..if the contractor goes out and buys materials that he
will be charged at least 25% restocking fees on should you
cancel, or worse yet, be unable to return, you just
potentially screwed the hell out of him.


Simply outrageous, put in to leave the owner holding the
bag.

"15. DURING THE DURATION OF THE WORK, THE CUSTOMER'S
HOMEOWNERS INSURANCE
WILL BE RESPONSIBLE FOR ANY INTERIOR DAMAGE AS LONG AS THE
COMPANY HAS TAKEN
APPROPRIATE ACTION TO PROTECT THE ROOF DURING THE REPAIR OF
THE ROOF."

Nope. Thats called what your homeowners insurance is for. If
the roofs already missing off your home, and the contractor
starts work on it, and you get another storm, you are going
to hold the contractor liable for anything that happens
after he starts work?
Wrong.
The way I read it is simple:
So long as his company took action to keep rain from
entering, be it tarps, more plywood laid over etc....and you
get another storm, and you get a leak that takes out your
new $2000 widescreen, hes not gonna pay for it.
Nor should he.



The customer is supposed to point out wood rot? That's an
obligation by the
construction crew, to notify the consumer of problems.
Nail pops can show
up after the new roof, because the nails weren't driven
properly. This
clause is a go-ahead to rip off the consumer.

"17. THE COMPANY IS NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR PRE-EXISTING
CONSTRUCTION
DEFICIENCIES THAT MANIFEST THEMSELVES DURING THE
CONSTRUCTION PROCESS, I.E.
NAIL POPS, WOODROT, DECKING DEFLECTION, ETC. IF A
CONSTRUCTION PROBLEM IS
POINTED OUT PRIOR TO CONSTRUCTION AND COMPANY IS NOTIFIED
IN WRITING,
COMPANY WILL TRY TO ASSIST CUSTOMER TO CORRECT THE
PROBLEM(S) ON A TIME AND
MATERIAL BASIS."


Here, that would be called a hidden damage clause. Meaning,
that if during the course of the work, any hidden damage is
found that was not quoted for repair due to it not being
able to be seen, then the contractor stops and allows the
customer to make up his mind as to what and how to proceed,
after of course, IF needed requoting.


This pretty much states no implied warranty what-so-ever.
In other words,
the consumer is SOL, and they do less than desirable
workmanship.

"19. COMPANY ACCEPTS NO LIABILITY TO INDEMNIFY OR HOLD
CUSTOMER HARMLESS FOR
DAMAGES TO PERSONS OR PROPERTY, EXCEPT THOSE THAT ARE THE
DIRECT RESULT OF
COMPANY'S NEGLIGENT ERROR OR OMISSION WHICH OCCUR DURING
PERFORMANCE OF THE
COMPANY'S WORK. COMPANY DISCLAIMS ANY AND ALL LIABILITY FOR
DAMAGES TO
PERSONS OR PROPERTY RESULTING FROM MOLD GROWTH WITHIN ANY
PART OF THE
BUILDING ENVELOPE DUE TO MOISTURE ENTERING THE BUILDING
ENVELOPE PRIOR TO
COMPANY'S COMPLETION OF INSTALLATION OF THE ROOF
SYSTEMS/MEMBRANE, SIDING,
WINDOW AND GUTTER SYSTEMS OR AS THE RESULT OF DAMAGE TO OR
PENETRATION OF
THE INSTALLED ROOF SYSTEMS/MEMBRANE, SIDING, WINDOW AND
GUTTER SYSTEMS BY
OTHERS. CUSTOMER UNDERSTANDS AND AGREES THAT COMPANY SHALL
HAVE NO
RESPONSIBILITY AT ANY TIME AFTER COMPLETION OF THE WORK FOR
DAMAGES OF ANY
KIND TO PERSONS OR PROP
ERTY LOCATED BELOW THE INSTALLED ROOF SYSTEMS/MEMBRANE,
SIDING, WINDOW AND
GUTTER SYSTEMS, WHETHER OR NOT SUCH DAMAGES RESULT FROM (A)
LEAKS OR
WEATHER-ORIENTED SOURCES OR (B) MOLD GROWTH."


Thats a lawyers way of inserting a mold protection clause.
Mold is the new asbestoes of the new era, and you will find
something like that on most every contractors forms, unless
hes wanting to find that one person who would go sue for
millions over something that was in his house before, and he
just didnt have the circumstances prevaliant for it to
manifest itself.


What's the potential damage which can occur above
agreement.....priceless.

"20. THE COMPANY'S MONETARY DAMAGE LIABILITY FOR ANY CLAIM
OF PROPERTY
DAMAGE
ARISING OUT OF THE COMPANY'S PERFORMANCE OR NON-PERFORMANCE
OF THIS
AGREEMENTSHALL NOT EXCEED THE TOTAL AGREEMENT AMOUNT."


And you checked to see if he had insurance right? What that
clause is stating as I read it, as a contractor, that if you
sue, and you already sound like one that would, HIS outlay
of liability isnt going to be more than the amount you
agreed to.
His INSURANCE company on the other hand, isnt listed, and
THATS what insurance is for.





Now, on a more serious note.
Its obvious you dont trust the company, and in general, we
dont trust anyone. The reason why is sue happy people.
Business isnt like it used to be. I still have customers I
can take care of with a handshake and never have to worry
about.
Then, you get the new one that you just dont have a good
feeling about, and after years of doing this, there has been
more than one time I have told them that I just didnt think
we could satisfy them, and that we declined the work...only
to find out later that another company did the work and they
have had nothing but problems since it was done.

If you dont trust the contractor that has given the quote,
just walk away and dont sign anything.
By the same token, you may find a contractor that after
talking to you, states that he cant do your work, or prices
it out of your ballpark. It goes both ways.

That said, suggest you look around, find someone that has a
reputation and ability that you trust, and then look his
contract over. Many of the clauses in the contract will
never apply to you, however, witihout them, that ONE person
that is looking for a reason to try to get rich quick will
find a way to manipulate it to his advantage.

Contracts used to be simple...you wanted work done, the
contractor wanted to do the work and make a living.
Now, due to litigation, most of it bull, since these days
everyones sue happy, even when the works done perfect,
contractors have HAD to take steps to protect themsleves.

Seriously tho...find another one you can live with, and
allow them to do the work. Express your concerns to the
owner, or the job super, and make sure its done your way,
but at the same time, make sure you allow them to do it
their way too. Over all, it will work out for you and
them...you want a roof fixed, and they want to fix it and
make a profit doing so..its how business works. If you would
see the insurance agreements in most grocery stores for
example, you would never set foot in one again....yet,
millions do, and few ever get hurt..except for the 1% of the
legitimate injury cases that actually hit the courts..
Chances are, you could use that company and never have a
problem...but bottom line, you dont trust them, find
another, but keep in mind, they dont trust you either.

wrote in message
ups.com...
I didn't take the time to read all articles of this
agreement. You
should have it checked out by a construction lawyer. It
most probably
will cost you to have it done. Suggestion: have the
construction work
done as an open bid competative project. Get at least 5 to
10 bids.
That way you have your GC's working to give you the most
reasonable
price possible as well as giving you control of the
workmanship.
Examine their quotes. Get references. BBB check. And have
them give
you project references that you can physically check
yourself. This is
a trick I figured out myself. Put a prize and penalty
clause in the
contract: the GC is to get a 1% increase of the total bid
quote for
finishing for each week prior to established date of
completion. And
that the GC will forfeit 1% of the total bid quote for each
week of
delay beyond the established date of completion. Make sure
there is
also a clause stating that the GC has not declared
bankruptcy within
the last 3 yrs. And that neither has any member of his
family done so
as officer of his or any other similar businessed company.
See to it
that his company has not changed hands under similar
circumstances. In
12 yrs of international construction contracting (about one
every 3
weeks), I had only one GC that didn't meet his deadline.

the mind boggles. please. You can do better. Few in
the construction business on projects over a million dollars
ever see one one come in on the original schedule...and the 1%
per week clause... gimme a break. you think one size fits
all? not hardly.

I dont appreciate being lied to.


Phil Scott

It is most unusual to find Articles of Incorporation that state specific
business activities. The general AI say the "purpose" of the corporation is
to "engage in any activities or business permitted under the laws of the
United States and Florida." I've never seen Articles of Incorporation that
don't use that broad langusge.

If they are doing anything other than "roofing, siding and gutters" they
*may* be operating in violation of their Articles of Incorporation and this
may place them in some legal jeopardy. Ask the Department of State or an
attorney.

Regarding GC's doing roofing see:
http://www.state.fl.us/dbpr/os/hot_t...ase_05_148.pdf

Perhaps the fact that their Articles of Incorporation specify roofing has
something to do with getting by "easier" in Florida under the active
executive orders.

And you know their office is in Minnesota - right?


"Doc" wrote in message
ink.net...

"rj" wrote in message
. ..

Checking the Florida Department of State website (
http://www.tinyurl.com/atwbg ) I see in their Articles of Incorporation
that
their business activity should be limited to "roofing, siding and
gutters."

Hmm. I was under the impression that general contractors in Florida can do
the whole house if they have a roofers license. In fact, the insurance
company strongly urges getting a general contractor so they can handle it
all - roof, carpet, drywall. These people supposedly are a general
contractor.


Additionally, I do NOT find any listing for them as a licensed
contractor
on
the DBPR website (what is their license #???)

CGC1507721

( https://www.myfloridalicense.com/Default.asp )

The following document from myflorida.com gives some good tips (avoid
door-to-door peddlers, etc.)


http://www.myflorida.com/dbpr/dbpr/n...home_jan04.pdf

Most importantly, the contract, by law, should have the contractor's
license
number on it and you should demand a "Certificate of Insurance" from the
contractor's workman's comp and general liablity carrier. Note the
carrier
provides it to you directly upon the contractor's request to them.

Are you still seeking repairs from the '04 storms?

Yes.

By the way, for anyone reading this, I appreciate all the input.

"Doc" wrote in message
nk.net...
For what it's worth, the name of the company is ABC American
Building
Contractors - Insurance Restoration Services, Inc.
According to the field
rep who I talked to, they're supposedly a national company.
Anyone ever
heard of / dealt with them? I originally heard of them when
a guy came
around going through the neighborhood with door hangers.

There are many 'national' companies that are complete rip
offs. Their contract tells you who they are.... self
interested with no intest in your welfare. a good contract
provides for both parties best interests contrary to what some
in the semi literate set think. there is ample legal
precident on that.




Phil Scott

Comments inserted:
"Carolina Breeze HVAC" wrote

" 3. SHOULD DEFAULT BE MADE IN PAYMENT OF THIS AGREEMENT FOR MORE THAN
FIFTEEN DAYS, A LATE CHARGE EQUAL TO FIVE PERCENT"

5% isnt high. There are contracts here that allow up to 25% of the total
to
be added.
Your contractor isnt a bank, therefore, he wants his money too.


The problem lies with a late charge after 15 days, they already have an
interest clause in the contract.




This next one, would be worthwhile to forward to the State Attorney
General.
They think they're clever by putting the "not as a penalty", where as it
is
a penalty, and not allowed in any state.


Its allowed here...sorry.
Therefore, where do you get off saying its not allowed in any state? If I
go
buy $100,000 of parts and supplies on a contract that was signed by you,
and
you break the contract cause the weather changed, then damn right you are
gonna pay something.

I suggest you read up on penalty clauses, they are not allowed in any state.
By saying it is not a penalty clause, flashes a light at "look at me", I'm
really liquid damages. Sorry, that doesn't hold water in a court. There
should be no mention of penalty what-so-ever.

Your example of "x" amount for parts is totally irrelevant to the paragraph
mentioned. They want 50% down, surely you read the contract.



"11. IF THIS AGREEMENT IS CANCELLED BY THE CUSTOMER, CUSTOMER SHALL PAY
TO
THE COMPANY TWENTY-FIVE PERCENT (25) OF THE TOTAL AGREEMENT AMOUNT AS
LIQUIDATED DAMAGES, NOT AS A PENALTY, AND THE COMPANY AGREES TO ACCEPT
SUCH
AS A REASONABLE AND JUST COMPENSATION FOR SAID CANCELLATION."


So..if the contractor goes out and buys materials that he will be charged
at
least 25% restocking fees on should you cancel, or worse yet, be unable
to
return, you just potentially screwed the hell out of him.

You read the outlined payment schedule, didn't you? What is the problem?



Simply outrageous, put in to leave the owner holding the bag.

"15. DURING THE DURATION OF THE WORK, THE CUSTOMER'S HOMEOWNERS
INSURANCE
WILL BE RESPONSIBLE FOR ANY INTERIOR DAMAGE AS LONG AS THE COMPANY HAS
TAKEN
APPROPRIATE ACTION TO PROTECT THE ROOF DURING THE REPAIR OF THE ROOF."

Nope. Thats called what your homeowners insurance is for. If the roofs
already missing off your home, and the contractor starts work on it, and
you
get another storm, you are going to hold the contractor liable for
anything
that happens after he starts work?
Wrong.
The way I read it is simple:
So long as his company took action to keep rain from entering, be it
tarps,
more plywood laid over etc....and you get another storm, and you get a
leak
that takes out your new $2000 widescreen, hes not gonna pay for it.
Nor should he.

Total hogwash. This type of job can be totally dried-in. Then it becomes
"their word" against "your word". If a company won't stand behind their in
progress work with a minimum of one million liabilty (some areas require up
to triple the amount), their contract isn't worth reading in the first
place.


The customer is supposed to point out wood rot? That's an obligation by
the
construction crew, to notify the consumer of problems. Nail pops can
show
up after the new roof, because the nails weren't driven properly. This
clause is a go-ahead to rip off the consumer.

"17. THE COMPANY IS NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR PRE-EXISTING CONSTRUCTION
DEFICIENCIES THAT MANIFEST THEMSELVES DURING THE CONSTRUCTION PROCESS,
I.E.
NAIL POPS, WOODROT, DECKING DEFLECTION, ETC. IF A CONSTRUCTION PROBLEM
IS
POINTED OUT PRIOR TO CONSTRUCTION AND COMPANY IS NOTIFIED IN WRITING,
COMPANY WILL TRY TO ASSIST CUSTOMER TO CORRECT THE PROBLEM(S) ON A TIME
AND
MATERIAL BASIS."


Here, that would be called a hidden damage clause. Meaning, that if during
the course of the work, any hidden damage is found that was not quoted for
repair due to it not being able to be seen, then the contractor stops and
allows the customer to make up his mind as to what and how to proceed,
after
of course, IF needed requoting.


It should say hidden damage. I suggest you not take anything for granite,
and read what it actually does say. Pay close attention to the part of
"deficiencies that manifest themselves during the construction process".
What that says, if a problem arises regardless of fault, they will not take
on liability, and you will pay.


the consumer is SOL, and they do less than desirable workmanship.

"19. COMPANY ACCEPTS NO LIABILITY TO INDEMNIFY OR HOLD CUSTOMER HARMLESS
FOR
DAMAGES TO PERSONS OR PROPERTY, EXCEPT THOSE THAT ARE THE DIRECT RESULT
OF
COMPANY'S NEGLIGENT ERROR OR OMISSION WHICH OCCUR DURING PERFORMANCE OF
THE
COMPANY'S WORK. COMPANY DISCLAIMS ANY AND ALL LIABILITY FOR DAMAGES TO
PERSONS OR PROPERTY RESULTING FROM MOLD GROWTH WITHIN ANY PART OF THE
BUILDING ENVELOPE DUE TO MOISTURE ENTERING THE BUILDING ENVELOPE PRIOR
TO
COMPANY'S COMPLETION OF INSTALLATION OF THE ROOF SYSTEMS/MEMBRANE,
SIDING,
WINDOW AND GUTTER SYSTEMS OR AS THE RESULT OF DAMAGE TO OR PENETRATION
OF
THE INSTALLED ROOF SYSTEMS/MEMBRANE, SIDING, WINDOW AND GUTTER SYSTEMS
BY
OTHERS. CUSTOMER UNDERSTANDS AND AGREES THAT COMPANY SHALL HAVE NO
RESPONSIBILITY AT ANY TIME AFTER COMPLETION OF THE WORK FOR DAMAGES OF
ANY
KIND TO PERSONS OR PROP
ERTY LOCATED BELOW THE INSTALLED ROOF SYSTEMS/MEMBRANE, SIDING, WINDOW
AND
GUTTER SYSTEMS, WHETHER OR NOT SUCH DAMAGES RESULT FROM (A) LEAKS OR
WEATHER-ORIENTED SOURCES OR (B) MOLD GROWTH."


Thats a lawyers way of inserting a mold protection clause.
Mold is the new asbestoes of the new era, and you will find something like
that on most every contractors forms, unless hes wanting to find that one
person who would go sue for millions over something that was in his house
before, and he just didnt have the circumstances prevaliant for it to
manifest itself.


That's a way to attempt to shrug liabilty issues. I'm afraid case law has
already ruled in favor of the consumer.




What's the potential damage which can occur above
agreement.....priceless.

"20. THE COMPANY'S MONETARY DAMAGE LIABILITY FOR ANY CLAIM OF PROPERTY
DAMAGE
ARISING OUT OF THE COMPANY'S PERFORMANCE OR NON-PERFORMANCE OF THIS
AGREEMENTSHALL NOT EXCEED THE TOTAL AGREEMENT AMOUNT."


And you checked to see if he had insurance right? What that clause is
stating as I read it, as a contractor, that if you sue, and you already
sound like one that would, HIS outlay of liability isnt going to be more
than the amount you agreed to.
His INSURANCE company on the other hand, isnt listed, and THATS what
insurance is for.


Wrong. Contractors are liable, you can not write I am not liable for
damages, and believe you are free and clear of liability issues. If you
don't carry enough insurance, guess what's next?

You're right about one thing, I have sued and won, and won, for clients that
have been taken by disgraceful contractors.

The bottom-line on a contract like this, it would cost a consumer, more for
legal fees, than the fight would be worth.

I don't care if he can produce satisfied customers, they could be
ringers. I am a heating and air conditioning contractor. I would be
ashamed, ASHAMED to give my customers a contract like that. At best, I
would run as fast as possible away from this dude. At worst, give
Angelo (or Pedro, or Patrick or Mustaffa) a little something to go bust
his kneecaps :-).

Stretch

There was a company by that name years ago in SC. They got sued so much
they left the state, Moved to NC. May be no connection. But companies
like names that begin with A, because it puts them first in the phone
book. The language of their contract scares me. I would put a big
plastic tarp on the roof for now and keep looking for a good
contractor.

Stretch

"Phil Scott" wrote in message
...

"Carolina Breeze HVAC"

Your comments are attempts to justify an utterly bogus contract. You
are doing this by saying correctly that the contractor needs
protection...while ignoring the obvous fact the contractor has deprived
his customer of the customers legitimate rights.

Not impressive.

Phil Scott

Bogus? I bet they paid some lawyers big bucks to write that. Fancy
contracts is a way of life with national companies. Ever read the fine
print on your credit card agreement?

What makes America great is that all you have to do is say "no thanks" and
be on your way.

Below is typical wording of a quotation in my industry. In that industry
for 35 years, I've only ever seen one sentence of this actually used in a
dispute and since it was an industry practice, it was finally accepted by
the buyer.







GENERAL TERMS AND ^CONDITIONS'

1. AGREEMENT. Our entire agreement consists only of the terms and
conditions set forth below or on the front page hereof

and any specifications or other documents specifically referred to
Herein. The terms of this Quotation relating to price/ -

description of goods or services, terms of payment and time and manner
of delivery, shall be superseded by a subsequent

acknowledgement from us to the extent any of such terms therein vary
from those set forth herein,

PRICE AND DELIVERY. Unless otherwise specified herein, all prices are
f.o.b. our plant, no transportation allowed, with

Buyer to pay all charges for special packing and shipping. All quoted
prices will remain in effect for a period of 30 days from

the date of Quotation. If method / routing of shipment is not
specified by Buyer, we shall ship via any reasonable method

and routing. We will have no responsibility for loss or damage
resulting from blocking or staying of goods for transit. Upon

our delivery of goods to a carrier for delivery to Buyer, Buyer shall
be deemed to have received the goods and risk of loss

shall be Buyer's irresponsibility. If in our judgement the ability of
the Buyer to pay when due becomes impaired, we may

withhold shipment (without prejudice to our other rights)

SPECIFICATIONS. Buyer will indemnify and defend us as to any and all
legal proceedings, claims, demands, damages,

costs, expenses and attorney's fees arising from any alleged
infringement of patent or trademark in the manufacture of

goods to the extent that Buyer furnishes specifications, drawings,
notes, instructions, engineering notices or other techni-

cal data to us for us to follow in manufacturing the goods covered
hereby. In addition, any such specifications or other

materials are made a part of our agreement and as to such goods
manufactured, NO WARRANTY OR GUARANTEE AS

TO MERCHANTABILITY OR FITNESS THEREOF FOR ANY PARTICULAR PURPOSE IS
MADE BY US UNLESS THE

SAME IS OTHERWISE SPECIFICALLY STATED BY US IN WRITING.

DELAYS. We will not be liable for loss or damage of any kind resulting
from delay or inability to deliver goods arising

directly or indirectly on account of fire, flood, labor troubles,
accident, acts of civil or military authorities, shortages of labor,

fuel, power, materials, supplies or transportation or from any other
cause beyond our control.

LIABILITY. We warrant that our goods will be free from defects in
materials and workmanship and in compliance with any

specification etc. furnished to us. In the event of defective goods.
Buyers sole and exclusive remedy for any loss it suffers

is to receive, at election, a credit from us, in the amount agreed to
by us, or replacement of the good by us. In no event will

we be liable under our own warranty (or in any action of contract or
tort related to goods sold) for any labor, downtime,

increased expense of operation of any equipment, loss of anticipated
profits or consequential damages of any kind. Claims

for defective goods, or for any other cause, shall be deemed waived
and released by Buyer unless made in writing and

received by us within ten days after Buyer's receipt of the goods. Any
goods as to which no valid claims are made in

pursuant to the foregoing shall be paid for when due regardless of any
other controversies between us relating to other

goods. Buyer agrees to hold us harmless against all claims made by
persons other than the Buyer arising out of our

goods.

SALES & SIMILAR TAXES. No sales, use or similar taxes on the goods are
included in prices specified herein. Such of

these taxes as we are required to pay shall be added to the price and
paid by the Buyer to us.

CHANGE IN SCOPE After an agreement has come into existence, no changes
shall be made except by mutual written

agreement as to the price and nature of change.

CANCELLATION. Upon written notice from Buyer, our agreement may be
cancelled upon concurrent payment of the total

of our cost previously incurred, our then existing commitments, any
costs we incur as the result of cancellation, plus

fifteen percent of such total contract price with us.

STORAGE. At our option, goods may be stored at Buyer's risk and
expense in the event of Buyer's request to defer

manufacture or delivery.

ACCEPTANCE. No agreement shall be binding on us until accepted in
writing by our duly authorized officer at our plant.

ASSIGNMENT No proposal or agreement may be assigned by Buyer without
written consent.

PROPER LAW. All matters concerning a proposal or agreement based
thereon shall be governed by the laws of the state

of manufacture.

WAIVER. A waiver by us of full compliance with these terms and
conditions on any occasion shall in no way constitute a

course of conduct obligating us to waive full compliance on any other
occasion.

MOLDS, DIES OR TOOLING. It is acknowledged that if BUYER is supplying
molds, dies or tooling to us to enable us to

manufacture goods for BUYER, we hold the same at the sole risk and
expense of Buyer and we will not have any liability

whatsoever beyond routine maintenance except to repair or replace the
same in the event of damage thereto caused by

our willful acts or gross negligence. Buyer should obtain any
insurance with respect thereto as Buyer deems proper. We

shall maintain possession of the molds, dies and tooling until Buyer
has paid us all amount due.

"Ken" wrote in message
...
Comments inserted:
"Carolina Breeze HVAC" wrote

" 3. SHOULD DEFAULT BE MADE IN PAYMENT OF THIS AGREEMENT FOR MORE
THAN
FIFTEEN DAYS, A LATE CHARGE EQUAL TO FIVE PERCENT"

5% isnt high. There are contracts here that allow up to 25% of the total
to
be added.
Your contractor isnt a bank, therefore, he wants his money too.


The problem lies with a late charge after 15 days, they already have an
interest clause in the contract.




This next one, would be worthwhile to forward to the State Attorney
General.
They think they're clever by putting the "not as a penalty", where as
it
is
a penalty, and not allowed in any state.


Its allowed here...sorry.
Therefore, where do you get off saying its not allowed in any state? If I
go
buy $100,000 of parts and supplies on a contract that was signed by you,
and
you break the contract cause the weather changed, then damn right you are
gonna pay something.

I suggest you read up on penalty clauses, they are not allowed in any
state.
By saying it is not a penalty clause, flashes a light at "look at me", I'm
really liquid damages. Sorry, that doesn't hold water in a court. There
should be no mention of penalty what-so-ever.

Your example of "x" amount for parts is totally irrelevant to the
paragraph
mentioned. They want 50% down, surely you read the contract.



"11. IF THIS AGREEMENT IS CANCELLED BY THE CUSTOMER, CUSTOMER SHALL PAY
TO
THE COMPANY TWENTY-FIVE PERCENT (25) OF THE TOTAL AGREEMENT AMOUNT AS
LIQUIDATED DAMAGES, NOT AS A PENALTY, AND THE COMPANY AGREES TO ACCEPT
SUCH
AS A REASONABLE AND JUST COMPENSATION FOR SAID CANCELLATION."


So..if the contractor goes out and buys materials that he will be charged
at
least 25% restocking fees on should you cancel, or worse yet, be unable
to
return, you just potentially screwed the hell out of him.

You read the outlined payment schedule, didn't you? What is the problem?



Simply outrageous, put in to leave the owner holding the bag.

"15. DURING THE DURATION OF THE WORK, THE CUSTOMER'S HOMEOWNERS
INSURANCE
WILL BE RESPONSIBLE FOR ANY INTERIOR DAMAGE AS LONG AS THE COMPANY HAS
TAKEN
APPROPRIATE ACTION TO PROTECT THE ROOF DURING THE REPAIR OF THE ROOF."

Nope. Thats called what your homeowners insurance is for. If the roofs
already missing off your home, and the contractor starts work on it, and
you
get another storm, you are going to hold the contractor liable for
anything
that happens after he starts work?
Wrong.
The way I read it is simple:
So long as his company took action to keep rain from entering, be it
tarps,
more plywood laid over etc....and you get another storm, and you get a
leak
that takes out your new $2000 widescreen, hes not gonna pay for it.
Nor should he.

Total hogwash. This type of job can be totally dried-in. Then it becomes
"their word" against "your word". If a company won't stand behind their
in
progress work with a minimum of one million liabilty (some areas require
up
to triple the amount), their contract isn't worth reading in the first
place.


The customer is supposed to point out wood rot? That's an obligation by
the
construction crew, to notify the consumer of problems. Nail pops can
show
up after the new roof, because the nails weren't driven properly. This
clause is a go-ahead to rip off the consumer.

"17. THE COMPANY IS NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR PRE-EXISTING CONSTRUCTION
DEFICIENCIES THAT MANIFEST THEMSELVES DURING THE CONSTRUCTION PROCESS,
I.E.
NAIL POPS, WOODROT, DECKING DEFLECTION, ETC. IF A CONSTRUCTION PROBLEM
IS
POINTED OUT PRIOR TO CONSTRUCTION AND COMPANY IS NOTIFIED IN WRITING,
COMPANY WILL TRY TO ASSIST CUSTOMER TO CORRECT THE PROBLEM(S) ON A TIME
AND
MATERIAL BASIS."


Here, that would be called a hidden damage clause. Meaning, that if
during
the course of the work, any hidden damage is found that was not quoted
for
repair due to it not being able to be seen, then the contractor stops and
allows the customer to make up his mind as to what and how to proceed,
after
of course, IF needed requoting.


It should say hidden damage. I suggest you not take anything for granite,
and read what it actually does say. Pay close attention to the part of
"deficiencies that manifest themselves during the construction process".
What that says, if a problem arises regardless of fault, they will not
take
on liability, and you will pay.


the consumer is SOL, and they do less than desirable workmanship.

"19. COMPANY ACCEPTS NO LIABILITY TO INDEMNIFY OR HOLD CUSTOMER
HARMLESS
FOR
DAMAGES TO PERSONS OR PROPERTY, EXCEPT THOSE THAT ARE THE DIRECT RESULT
OF
COMPANY'S NEGLIGENT ERROR OR OMISSION WHICH OCCUR DURING PERFORMANCE OF
THE
COMPANY'S WORK. COMPANY DISCLAIMS ANY AND ALL LIABILITY FOR DAMAGES TO
PERSONS OR PROPERTY RESULTING FROM MOLD GROWTH WITHIN ANY PART OF THE
BUILDING ENVELOPE DUE TO MOISTURE ENTERING THE BUILDING ENVELOPE PRIOR
TO
COMPANY'S COMPLETION OF INSTALLATION OF THE ROOF SYSTEMS/MEMBRANE,
SIDING,
WINDOW AND GUTTER SYSTEMS OR AS THE RESULT OF DAMAGE TO OR PENETRATION
OF
THE INSTALLED ROOF SYSTEMS/MEMBRANE, SIDING, WINDOW AND GUTTER SYSTEMS
BY
OTHERS. CUSTOMER UNDERSTANDS AND AGREES THAT COMPANY SHALL HAVE NO
RESPONSIBILITY AT ANY TIME AFTER COMPLETION OF THE WORK FOR DAMAGES OF
ANY
KIND TO PERSONS OR PROP
ERTY LOCATED BELOW THE INSTALLED ROOF SYSTEMS/MEMBRANE, SIDING, WINDOW
AND
GUTTER SYSTEMS, WHETHER OR NOT SUCH DAMAGES RESULT FROM (A) LEAKS OR
WEATHER-ORIENTED SOURCES OR (B) MOLD GROWTH."


Thats a lawyers way of inserting a mold protection clause.
Mold is the new asbestoes of the new era, and you will find something
like
that on most every contractors forms, unless hes wanting to find that one
person who would go sue for millions over something that was in his house
before, and he just didnt have the circumstances prevaliant for it to
manifest itself.


That's a way to attempt to shrug liabilty issues. I'm afraid case law has
already ruled in favor of the consumer.




What's the potential damage which can occur above
agreement.....priceless.

"20. THE COMPANY'S MONETARY DAMAGE LIABILITY FOR ANY CLAIM OF PROPERTY
DAMAGE
ARISING OUT OF THE COMPANY'S PERFORMANCE OR NON-PERFORMANCE OF THIS
AGREEMENTSHALL NOT EXCEED THE TOTAL AGREEMENT AMOUNT."


And you checked to see if he had insurance right? What that clause is
stating as I read it, as a contractor, that if you sue, and you already
sound like one that would, HIS outlay of liability isnt going to be more
than the amount you agreed to.
His INSURANCE company on the other hand, isnt listed, and THATS what
insurance is for.


Wrong. Contractors are liable, you can not write I am not liable for
damages, and believe you are free and clear of liability issues. If you
don't carry enough insurance, guess what's next?

You're right about one thing, I have sued and won, and won, for clients
that
have been taken by disgraceful contractors.


And disgraceful, dishonest ones need to be taken out.
Point being, you are wrong on a few items, and I might not have been corrct
on all, but I can tell you this, I have prob been a contractor/owner as long
or longer than you have been in law, and two things are for su
There are contractors that NEED to be taken down
and
There is a lawyer ready to sue anyone, over anything.

Thankfully, our state board, is mostly lawyers.


The bottom-line on a contract like this, it would cost a consumer, more
for
legal fees, than the fight would be worth.

Doc ) said...

I'm in Florida working on getting post-hurricane repairs made to my house.
Replacement of the roof, drywall replacement in several rooms and full house
carpet replacement.

I've found a General Contractor who says they can do the work. They left an
agreement with me to sign before they'll begin any contact with the
Insurance company. I realize many of you aren't attornies but am hoping some
have had experience with this sort of issue and see what you think about
some points on the agreement - under each I'll include any questions
concerns about the point. If you see something, by all means speak up.
[snip]

Regardless of what is pre-printed on a contract, if you do not want something
in there, you have the right to cross it out, make modifications, or add new
sections. Do so, keep them reasonable (a contract is supposed to be fair to
both sides, but that is probably why you would want changes) and initial each
of your changes.

Of course, they don't have to accept your changes, but you won't be locked
into accepting their original terms if you have only signed a modified
contract. Be up front, or be sorry.


This goes for anything in life where something has to be signed. I once
had to sign admission papers when my wife went into hospital and if you
ever read these things, you are basically giving them permission to do
any test and procedures for any possible reason that they feel is
necessary. I crossed out that section and wrote in amedments restricting
them to specifics related to the admission plus emergency procedures for
life threatening situations. I know, this could be open to interpretation,
but at least I felt better than signing a blank cheque.

The clerk reacted like I had made amendments to the Bible! Still, they had
to accept what I had done as it was not unreasonable.

--
Calvin Henry-Cotnam
"Never ascribe to malice what can equally be explained by incompetence."
- Napoleon
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
NOTE: if replying by email, remove "remove." and ".invalid"

I'm a contractor relationship newbie. To date I've never paid a cent to
a contractor, personally. I'm a DIY guy from way back, however that's
gonna change soon, and that's for sure. My house needs a lot of work
that's simply beyond me - foundation, roof repair, tons of stuff.

I checked out a video from the library a few days ago that I'm sure you
would find very interesting. I watched it the other day and found tons
of great stuff pertaining to your situation. It's put out by the BBB and
titled "Hiring A Home Contractor." If you look, you should have trouble
finding the video and it may save you a ton of money and problems and
may help you achieve your goals. Good luck!

Dan

This type of contract is only used by companies who don't have faith in
their work. Kinda like the usless guy who puts on his boots everyday to lean
on a shovel. He thinks because he existed ther is deserves to get paid, and
isn't going to accept responsibility for his problems and damage. SOUNDS
LIKE THEY ARE COVERING THE ISSUES THEY HAVE GOTTEN IN TROUBLE FOR BEFOR.
"Carolina Breeze HVAC" wrote in message
...

"Ken" wrote in message
...

"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote
Most of the clauses are
standard language stuff from the Commercial Code.

Eds right BTW, but playing Devils Advocate in this post....read on..



Tell me you're kidding. There is nothing standard about the parts
below.

" 3. SHOULD DEFAULT BE MADE IN PAYMENT OF THIS AGREEMENT FOR MORE THAN
FIFTEEN DAYS, A LATE CHARGE EQUAL TO FIVE PERCENT"

5% isnt high. There are contracts here that allow up to 25% of the total
to
be added.
Your contractor isnt a bank, therefore, he wants his money too.

This next one, would be worthwhile to forward to the State Attorney
General.
They think they're clever by putting the "not as a penalty", where as it
is
a penalty, and not allowed in any state.


Its allowed here...sorry.
Therefore, where do you get off saying its not allowed in any state? If I
go
buy $100,000 of parts and supplies on a contract that was signed by you,
and
you break the contract cause the weather changed, then damn right you are
gonna pay something.



"11. IF THIS AGREEMENT IS CANCELLED BY THE CUSTOMER, CUSTOMER SHALL PAY
TO
THE COMPANY TWENTY-FIVE PERCENT (25) OF THE TOTAL AGREEMENT AMOUNT AS
LIQUIDATED DAMAGES, NOT AS A PENALTY, AND THE COMPANY AGREES TO ACCEPT
SUCH
AS A REASONABLE AND JUST COMPENSATION FOR SAID CANCELLATION."


So..if the contractor goes out and buys materials that he will be charged
at
least 25% restocking fees on should you cancel, or worse yet, be unable
to
return, you just potentially screwed the hell out of him.


Simply outrageous, put in to leave the owner holding the bag.

"15. DURING THE DURATION OF THE WORK, THE CUSTOMER'S HOMEOWNERS
INSURANCE
WILL BE RESPONSIBLE FOR ANY INTERIOR DAMAGE AS LONG AS THE COMPANY HAS
TAKEN
APPROPRIATE ACTION TO PROTECT THE ROOF DURING THE REPAIR OF THE ROOF."

Nope. Thats called what your homeowners insurance is for. If the roofs
already missing off your home, and the contractor starts work on it, and
you
get another storm, you are going to hold the contractor liable for
anything
that happens after he starts work?
Wrong.
The way I read it is simple:
So long as his company took action to keep rain from entering, be it
tarps,
more plywood laid over etc....and you get another storm, and you get a
leak
that takes out your new $2000 widescreen, hes not gonna pay for it.
Nor should he.



The customer is supposed to point out wood rot? That's an obligation by
the
construction crew, to notify the consumer of problems. Nail pops can
show
up after the new roof, because the nails weren't driven properly. This
clause is a go-ahead to rip off the consumer.

"17. THE COMPANY IS NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR PRE-EXISTING CONSTRUCTION
DEFICIENCIES THAT MANIFEST THEMSELVES DURING THE CONSTRUCTION PROCESS,
I.E.
NAIL POPS, WOODROT, DECKING DEFLECTION, ETC. IF A CONSTRUCTION PROBLEM
IS
POINTED OUT PRIOR TO CONSTRUCTION AND COMPANY IS NOTIFIED IN WRITING,
COMPANY WILL TRY TO ASSIST CUSTOMER TO CORRECT THE PROBLEM(S) ON A TIME
AND
MATERIAL BASIS."


Here, that would be called a hidden damage clause. Meaning, that if during
the course of the work, any hidden damage is found that was not quoted for
repair due to it not being able to be seen, then the contractor stops and
allows the customer to make up his mind as to what and how to proceed,
after
of course, IF needed requoting.


This pretty much states no implied warranty what-so-ever. In other
words,
the consumer is SOL, and they do less than desirable workmanship.

"19. COMPANY ACCEPTS NO LIABILITY TO INDEMNIFY OR HOLD CUSTOMER HARMLESS
FOR
DAMAGES TO PERSONS OR PROPERTY, EXCEPT THOSE THAT ARE THE DIRECT RESULT
OF
COMPANY'S NEGLIGENT ERROR OR OMISSION WHICH OCCUR DURING PERFORMANCE OF
THE
COMPANY'S WORK. COMPANY DISCLAIMS ANY AND ALL LIABILITY FOR DAMAGES TO
PERSONS OR PROPERTY RESULTING FROM MOLD GROWTH WITHIN ANY PART OF THE
BUILDING ENVELOPE DUE TO MOISTURE ENTERING THE BUILDING ENVELOPE PRIOR
TO
COMPANY'S COMPLETION OF INSTALLATION OF THE ROOF SYSTEMS/MEMBRANE,
SIDING,
WINDOW AND GUTTER SYSTEMS OR AS THE RESULT OF DAMAGE TO OR PENETRATION
OF
THE INSTALLED ROOF SYSTEMS/MEMBRANE, SIDING, WINDOW AND GUTTER SYSTEMS
BY
OTHERS. CUSTOMER UNDERSTANDS AND AGREES THAT COMPANY SHALL HAVE NO
RESPONSIBILITY AT ANY TIME AFTER COMPLETION OF THE WORK FOR DAMAGES OF
ANY
KIND TO PERSONS OR PROP
ERTY LOCATED BELOW THE INSTALLED ROOF SYSTEMS/MEMBRANE, SIDING, WINDOW
AND
GUTTER SYSTEMS, WHETHER OR NOT SUCH DAMAGES RESULT FROM (A) LEAKS OR
WEATHER-ORIENTED SOURCES OR (B) MOLD GROWTH."


Thats a lawyers way of inserting a mold protection clause.
Mold is the new asbestoes of the new era, and you will find something like
that on most every contractors forms, unless hes wanting to find that one
person who would go sue for millions over something that was in his house
before, and he just didnt have the circumstances prevaliant for it to
manifest itself.


What's the potential damage which can occur above
agreement.....priceless.

"20. THE COMPANY'S MONETARY DAMAGE LIABILITY FOR ANY CLAIM OF PROPERTY
DAMAGE
ARISING OUT OF THE COMPANY'S PERFORMANCE OR NON-PERFORMANCE OF THIS
AGREEMENTSHALL NOT EXCEED THE TOTAL AGREEMENT AMOUNT."


And you checked to see if he had insurance right? What that clause is
stating as I read it, as a contractor, that if you sue, and you already
sound like one that would, HIS outlay of liability isnt going to be more
than the amount you agreed to.
His INSURANCE company on the other hand, isnt listed, and THATS what
insurance is for.





Now, on a more serious note.
Its obvious you dont trust the company, and in general, we dont trust
anyone. The reason why is sue happy people.
Business isnt like it used to be. I still have customers I can take care
of
with a handshake and never have to worry about.
Then, you get the new one that you just dont have a good feeling about,
and
after years of doing this, there has been more than one time I have told
them that I just didnt think we could satisfy them, and that we declined
the
work...only to find out later that another company did the work and they
have had nothing but problems since it was done.

If you dont trust the contractor that has given the quote, just walk away
and dont sign anything.
By the same token, you may find a contractor that after talking to you,
states that he cant do your work, or prices it out of your ballpark. It
goes
both ways.

That said, suggest you look around, find someone that has a reputation and
ability that you trust, and then look his contract over. Many of the
clauses
in the contract will never apply to you, however, witihout them, that ONE
person that is looking for a reason to try to get rich quick will find a
way
to manipulate it to his advantage.

Contracts used to be simple...you wanted work done, the contractor wanted
to
do the work and make a living.
Now, due to litigation, most of it bull, since these days everyones sue
happy, even when the works done perfect, contractors have HAD to take
steps
to protect themsleves.

Seriously tho...find another one you can live with, and allow them to do
the
work. Express your concerns to the owner, or the job super, and make sure
its done your way, but at the same time, make sure you allow them to do it
their way too. Over all, it will work out for you and them...you want a
roof
fixed, and they want to fix it and make a profit doing so..its how
business
works. If you would see the insurance agreements in most grocery stores
for
example, you would never set foot in one again....yet, millions do, and
few
ever get hurt..except for the 1% of the legitimate injury cases that
actually hit the courts..
Chances are, you could use that company and never have a problem...but
bottom line, you dont trust them, find another, but keep in mind, they
dont
trust you either.

I am a contractor in the same area and have not heard that complaint in 10
months. I call bull****!
"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message
news:s3LHe.15783$QX2.6707@trndny01...

wrote in message
ups.com...
Get at least 5 to 10 bids.
That way you have your GC's working to give you the most reasonable
price possible as well as giving you control of the workmanship.

Not criticising your advice, but the OP is in Florida where there h s been
a
lot of hurricane damage. He's lucky to get two contractors to even look
at
the job let alone 5 or 10. Therein lies the problem. Lots of
undesirables
out to make a quick buck.


Examine their quotes. Get references.

This is the most important aspect of the job. If the guy is good, well
established and has a good reputation you will have satisfactory
completion.

On Tue, 02 Aug 2005 01:21:39 GMT, someone wrote:

I've found a General Contractor who says they can do the work. They left an
agreement with me to sign before they'll begin any contact with the
Insurance company....

hehehe, now you can see whay they are called CONTRACTors.

OF COURSE anything they write, will be favorable to them.

If you know enough to negotiate, and have the bargaining power to do
so, have at it. Otherwise....


Reply to NG only - this e.mail address goes to a kill file.

"v" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 02 Aug 2005 01:21:39 GMT, someone wrote:

I've found a General Contractor who says they can do the
work. They left an
agreement with me to sign before they'll begin any contact
with the
Insurance company....

hehehe, now you can see whay they are called CONTRACTors.

OF COURSE anything they write, will be favorable to them.

Not correct. For a contract to hold up in court is has to
fair, equitable and just for both parties... good contractors
know that and write fair contracts. I write better
contracts, included in mine are liberal warranty terms...but
also included are clause to protect myself if the client fails
to pay progress payments and stalles the job then demands we
stay on schedule.

Phil Scott


If you know enough to negotiate, and have the bargaining
power to do
so, have at it. Otherwise....


Reply to NG only - this e.mail address goes to a kill file.

"It has to be 'reasonable' or its not enforceable. Most people
dont know that and get roped into rip off deals by business
and government all the time... the fact that you signed does
not mean you have to pay if payment puts you into an unviable,
(not survivable or undue damaging position) therefore
unreasonable situation. "

This is one of the dumbest things I ever heard. So, you're saying if I
sign a contract to buy a boat for $200k, agreeing to make payments, and
then say, "It wasn't reasonable, If I have to continue to make payments
on it, then I'll have to sell my house and won't have enought money to
eat" , a court is gonna say, OK, no problem, it just wasn't a
reasonable contract, it's invalid, you're off the hook?

If that were the case, people would be bailing on all kinds of
contracts for all kinds of BS reasons. The court isn't there to go
back and decide how fair or reasonable the contract was. That was up
to the parties that entered into it. As someone else pointed out, as
long as it meets the important tests listed and doesn't violate law,
then it's going to be held valid. Getting a bad deal by signing a bad
contract doesn't mean a court is going to undo it and let you walk.

wrote:

"It has to be 'reasonable' or its not enforceable. Most people
dont know that and get roped into rip off deals by business
and government all the time... the fact that you signed does
not mean you have to pay if payment puts you into an unviable,
(not survivable or undue damaging position) therefore
unreasonable situation. "

This is one of the dumbest things I ever heard. So, you're saying if I
sign a contract to buy a boat for $200k, agreeing to make payments, and
then say, "It wasn't reasonable, If I have to continue to make payments
on it, then I'll have to sell my house and won't have enought money to
eat" , a court is gonna say, OK, no problem, it just wasn't a
reasonable contract, it's invalid, you're off the hook?

If that were the case, people would be bailing on all kinds of
contracts for all kinds of BS reasons. The court isn't there to go
back and decide how fair or reasonable the contract was. That was up
to the parties that entered into it. As someone else pointed out, as
long as it meets the important tests listed and doesn't violate law,
then it's going to be held valid. Getting a bad deal by signing a bad
contract doesn't mean a court is going to undo it and let you walk.

It's known as an "Unconscionable Contract" and there are provisions
under which a contract may be deemed unenforceable owing to such
provisions. However, in order to meet such a criterion, the abuse has
to be extreme and simply a higher than market value in and of itself
would be unlikely unless it were truly and extreme case. In general, it
would require some sort of deceit or other heinous action on the part of
one party to create such a condition. That somebody agreed to pay $200k
or a boat that might only be worth $150k or so would be very unlikely to
elicit such a reaction unless there could be shown a willful
misrepresentation on the part of the seller. Simply the excuse of not
being able to afford the payments would not be sufficient, certainly.

Here's a summary of the general provisions typical...

"Unconscionable contracts are so unfair to one party that the contract
becomes unenforceable, usually with respect to consumers induced to sign
contracts via high pressure sales techniques or who misunderstood the
requirements and conditions. Such contracts hide procedurally unfair
terms in the fine print, contain exorbitant price or limit buyer's
remedy (waiver of buyer's defenses, prohibiting buyer's recovery in case
of product defects, limiting remedies to useless options, giving a
seller the right to reposess items sold on credit regardless of payoffs
on some of them)."

http://www.paradfirm.com/contracts.html

"It's known as an "Unconscionable Contract" and there are provisions
under which a contract may be deemed unenforceable owing to such
provisions. However, in order to meet such a criterion, the abuse has
to be extreme and simply a higher than market value in and of itself
would be unlikely unless it were truly and extreme case. In general,
it
would require some sort of deceit or other heinous action on the part
of
one party to create such a condition. That somebody agreed to pay
$200k
or a boat that might only be worth $150k or so would be very unlikely
to
elicit such a reaction unless there could be shown a willful
misrepresentation on the part of the seller. Simply the excuse of not
being able to afford the payments would not be sufficient, certainly.

Here's a summary of the general provisions typical...


"Unconscionable contracts are so unfair to one party that the contract
becomes unenforceable, usually with respect to consumers induced to
sign
contracts via high pressure sales techniques or who misunderstood the
requirements and conditions. Such contracts hide procedurally unfair
terms in the fine print, contain exorbitant price or limit buyer's
remedy (waiver of buyer's defenses, prohibiting buyer's recovery in
case
of product defects, limiting remedies to useless options, giving a
seller the right to reposess items sold on credit regardless of payoffs

on some of them)."


Yes, I agree, you MIGHT win a case if you had some or all of these
conditions present. But most of those type cases are brought against
companies by the govt for doing that list of things many times to large
numbers of consumers. I didn't see anything in the contract that
started this thread that qualifies as grounds for throwing out the
whole contract. For sure, it's a bad contract for the homeowner and I
wouldn't deal with the company. I'd say much of it is unreasonable
too, but I think they would likely hold up in a court of law.

The problem I had was a previous poster suggesting that a contract had
to be "reasonable" for it to be enforceable. Most people would say
signing a contract to pay $200K for a boat that was only worth $150K
was not reasonable. But I think we agree, it would be hard to find a
court to rule the contract invalid on that basis. Courts don't get
involved in figuring out if the contract was really fair, if somone
should have gotten a better deal etc, unless it's way out of line and
usually then in a number of areas that are totally over the top.