nospam wrote on 1/10/2018 10:11 AM:
In article , rickman
wrote:

Worn out batteries may not be covered by the warranty.

"May not"? Why wouldn't a battery be covered under warranty? It isn't
specifically excluded.


I said "may" as warranties vary by country. In the US: "This Warranty does
not apply: (a) to consumable parts, such as batteries..."

Go read the warranty for your location.

I don't own an Apple Phone

you don't need to own one to read the warranty information.

here's what motorola has to say:

https://motorola-global-portal.custh...wnloads/AUS-On
e_Year_Warranty.pdf
MOBILE PHONES & TABLETS (³Product²)
....
This Warranty Does Not Apply to:
(a) Consumable parts, such as batteries or protective coatings
designed to diminish over time unless failure has occurred due to a
defect in materials or workmanship. As with all batteries, the
maximum capacity of the battery will decrease with time and use; this
is not a defect. Only defective batteries and batteries that leak are
covered by this warranty.

note the key sentence:
As with all batteries, the maximum capacity of the battery will
decrease with time and use; this is not a defect.

Note the key sentence:

"unless failure has occurred due to a defect in materials or workmanship."

I think that is what Apple has said is happening to their batteries. Aren't
they fixing this problem in newer phones with better batteries. If the old
batteries aren't bad, why would they need to fix them?

--

Rick C

Viewed the eclipse at Wintercrest Farms,
on the centerline of totality since 1998

nospam wrote on 1/10/2018 10:02 AM:
In article , rickman
wrote:

I think a battery that prevents the device from running at full speed
because the unit shuts down would be considered to be "truly defective".


Eventually all batteries do that. How the batteries are (mis)used controls
how soon that happens.

I can't imagine you're suggesting that all worn out batteries be replaced
for free, so where would *you* draw the line?

That's an easy one... when they wear out in the warranty period, replace
them as defective.

they didn't wear out.

the batteries work perfectly fine in normal everyday use.

only the absolute maximum was limited, and only slightly.

So they don't work "fine". My understanding is if Apple didn't install
software to throttle the CPU the battery would cause the phone to shutdown.
That's not working "perfectly fine".


But it may go beyond that since this is clearly a design
flaw.

it's not a design flaw and affects all devices that use batteries. it's
a limitation of today's battery technology.

it's also not just apple. here's one example of many:

https://www.engadget.com/2017/04/21/...google-huawei-
over-nexus-6p-battery-issues/
A federal class action complaint has been filed accusing Google and
Huawei of fraud, breaching warranty and improperly handling customer
complaints after a number of Nexus 6P smartphones unexpectedly shut
down and became trapped in "boot loop" cycles.
....
The Nexus 6P hit the market in late 2015. It's a $500 smartphone with
a 5.7 inch screen that was, overall, a welcome improvement over the
previous year's Nexus 6. As long as it didn't suddenly shut off with
full battery, that is.
....
The Nexus 6P joins a handful of other past-gen Android phones
embroiled in lawsuits over dysfunctional devices, including LG's G4,
V10, G5, V20 and even the Nexus 5X.

You clearly don't understand the technology. If Apple had known of the
problem when they designed the phone they would have used a larger battery
with a higher maximum current. Then as it wore it would still power the
phone at 100% capacity past the end of the warranty period.

--

Rick C

Viewed the eclipse at Wintercrest Farms,
on the centerline of totality since 1998

nospam wrote on 1/10/2018 10:02 AM:
In article , rickman
wrote:

Brian Gregory wrote on 1/8/2018 8:11 PM:
On 02/01/2018 16:43, Jolly Roger wrote:
harry newton wrote:

HTC, Motorola, LG and Samsung are
among the major brands quick to stress they see no reason to throttle
the performance of their smartphones."

False. Android phones absolutely do throttle the CPU secretly with no
warning:

https://stackoverflow.com/q/11883404/6540130

Well yes of course the CPU gets throttled to prevent overheating.

Why would the CPU overheat?

because the user is doing something cpu intensive for an extended
period of time causing the cpu to get hot.

You completely ignore the issue. CPUs overheating mean the CPU cooling is
not designed appropriately. Just like the cooling in a car. If I drive and
my car overheats the problem is the car wasn't designed correctly or is
broken. Cooling systems should be designed to cool the thing they are
cooling.


Most computers are designed with adequate
cooling capacity.

they are, for normal everyday use. push it hard, such as playing a
graphics intensive game, and it will get warm, possibly very warm.

What? You aren't supposed to play games on a computer? LOL


there are no fans in a mobile phone. there is no room for a large
heatsink on the processor.

They also don't run the same sort of programs as PCs. But they are
computers and need to be designed to keep cool when being used and not to
burst into flames because someone played a game too long.


if it gets too warm, it has to throttle.

Or it can be designed with adequate passive cooling.


Overheating in a phone would be very bad. High
temperatures in a phone heat the Lithium battery which can in extreme cases
catch fire.

yep, which is why it has to be throttled.

Or better, cooled.

--

Rick C

Viewed the eclipse at Wintercrest Farms,
on the centerline of totality since 1998

On Wednesday, January 10, 2018 at 10:04:29 AM UTC-5, rickman wrote:


So, every car comes with a battery warranty. If it fails to start your car
within the warranty period you get a replacement. Why are you arguing this?

!@#$%^ apples and (*&^%$ oranges! That batter warranty (if it exists):

Has not one damned thing to do with the vehicle warranty - and must be pursued separately from the vehicle warranty if a claim is necessary. Why are you so dense as to not "GET" that?

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

In article , rickman
wrote:

It had nothing to do with avoiding the warranty. Period.

How can you make that assertion?


Worn out batteries may not be covered by the warranty.

"May not"? Why wouldn't a battery be covered under warranty? It isn't
specifically excluded.

batteries are excluded because they are a consumable part.

only if it's defective is it covered under warranty. normal wear and
tear is *not* covered.

if the battery fails a diagnostic test (or any other component) it will
be replaced under warranty. if it passes, then there's no reason to
replace it.

Did you read this in the Apple warranty? I'd like to see a copy.

https://www.apple.com/legal/warranty...ty-document-us.
html
This Warranty does not apply: (a) to consumable parts, such as
batteries or protective coatings that are designed to diminish over
time, unless failure has occurred due to a defect in materials or
workmanship; ...

it's a standard disclaimer.

The only test I really care about is running the phone the way it did when
new. If it doesn't do that the diagnostic test is pointless.

it's not a pointless test.

there's a big difference between a battery that's at 95% capacity after
a year (well within normal range) versus one that's at 60% capacity in
the same time frame, or has swollen or some other defect.

In article , rickman
wrote:

Go read the warranty for your location.

I don't own an Apple Phone

you don't need to own one to read the warranty information.

here's what motorola has to say:

https://motorola-global-portal.custh...wnloads/AUS-On
e_Year_Warranty.pdf
MOBILE PHONES & TABLETS (³Product²)
....
This Warranty Does Not Apply to:
(a) Consumable parts, such as batteries or protective coatings
designed to diminish over time unless failure has occurred due to a
defect in materials or workmanship. As with all batteries, the
maximum capacity of the battery will decrease with time and use; this
is not a defect. Only defective batteries and batteries that leak are
covered by this warranty.

note the key sentence:
As with all batteries, the maximum capacity of the battery will
decrease with time and use; this is not a defect.

Note the key sentence:

"unless failure has occurred due to a defect in materials or workmanship."

it's not a defect in materials or workmanship.

*all* batteries degrade over time. there is no getting around that, at
least with today's technology.

maybe at some point in the future there will be an eternal power source
that never wears out. that time is not now.

I think that is what Apple has said is happening to their batteries. Aren't
they fixing this problem in newer phones with better batteries. If the old
batteries aren't bad, why would they need to fix them?

no.

In article , rickman
wrote:


I can't imagine you're suggesting that all worn out batteries be replaced
for free, so where would *you* draw the line?

That's an easy one... when they wear out in the warranty period, replace
them as defective.

they didn't wear out.

the batteries work perfectly fine in normal everyday use.

only the absolute maximum was limited, and only slightly.

So they don't work "fine".

they do work fine.

My understanding is if Apple didn't install
software to throttle the CPU the battery would cause the phone to shutdown.
That's not working "perfectly fine".

it's also something that happens to every other battery operated device
when pushed hard enough.

But it may go beyond that since this is clearly a design
flaw.

it's not a design flaw and affects all devices that use batteries. it's
a limitation of today's battery technology.

it's also not just apple. here's one example of many:

https://www.engadget.com/2017/04/21/...google-huawei-
over-nexus-6p-battery-issues/
A federal class action complaint has been filed accusing Google and
Huawei of fraud, breaching warranty and improperly handling customer
complaints after a number of Nexus 6P smartphones unexpectedly shut
down and became trapped in "boot loop" cycles.
....
The Nexus 6P hit the market in late 2015. It's a $500 smartphone with
a 5.7 inch screen that was, overall, a welcome improvement over the
previous year's Nexus 6. As long as it didn't suddenly shut off with
full battery, that is.
....
The Nexus 6P joins a handful of other past-gen Android phones
embroiled in lawsuits over dysfunctional devices, including LG's G4,
V10, G5, V20 and even the Nexus 5X.

You clearly don't understand the technology.

far more than you do, and unlike you, i understand that *all* battery
powered devices are affected, not just from one particular company.

If Apple had known of the
problem when they designed the phone they would have used a larger battery
with a higher maximum current.

larger batteries cost more and take up more space.

mobile devices are highly competitive and users don't want big bulky
phones, nor do they want to pay for battery capacity they won't end up
needing.

most people check email, text, web surf, etc., hardly cpu intensive
activities, so a high capacity battery would be wasted.

the battery is more than adequate for the vast majority of use cases.

apple could have made the iphone the size of an ipad to hold a very
large battery, but it wouldn't have sold particularly well.

everything has tradeoffs.

Then as it wore it would still power the
phone at 100% capacity past the end of the warranty period.

again, this has nothing whatsoever to do with warranty periods.

In article , rickman
wrote:

False. Android phones absolutely do throttle the CPU secretly with no
warning:

https://stackoverflow.com/q/11883404/6540130

Well yes of course the CPU gets throttled to prevent overheating.

Why would the CPU overheat?

because the user is doing something cpu intensive for an extended
period of time causing the cpu to get hot.

You completely ignore the issue. CPUs overheating mean the CPU cooling is
not designed appropriately. Just like the cooling in a car. If I drive and
my car overheats the problem is the car wasn't designed correctly or is
broken. Cooling systems should be designed to cool the thing they are
cooling.

i'm not ignoring anything.

if you drive your car in extreme situations, it likely will overheat,
possibly with other failures too.

you can see these people on the side of the road on hot summer days.

Most computers are designed with adequate
cooling capacity.

they are, for normal everyday use. push it hard, such as playing a
graphics intensive game, and it will get warm, possibly very warm.

What? You aren't supposed to play games on a computer? LOL

nonsense. games are extremely popular on mobile devices.

there are no fans in a mobile phone. there is no room for a large
heatsink on the processor.

They also don't run the same sort of programs as PCs.

yes they do. the obvious ones are email and web browsing, but many
people also edit photos and videos on their phones.

But they are
computers and need to be designed to keep cool when being used and not to
burst into flames because someone played a game too long.

and they are.

if it gets too warm, it has to throttle.

Or it can be designed with adequate passive cooling.

it is, but everything has limits.

Overheating in a phone would be very bad. High
temperatures in a phone heat the Lithium battery which can in extreme cases
catch fire.

yep, which is why it has to be throttled.

Or better, cooled.

right, because a phone with a large heatsink sticking out the back and
a fan that's always on will sell.

not.

On 1/10/18 9:02 AM, rickman wrote:

I don't own an Apple Phone

So you don't even have a dog in this race.


--
"I am a river to my people."
Jeff-1.0
WA6FWi
http:foxsmercantile.com

On Wednesday, January 10, 2018 at 10:44:44 AM UTC-5, nospam wrote:


right, because a phone with a large heatsink sticking out the back and
a fan that's always on will sell.

not.

Of course, now the battery must support the fan as well.

Each phone will now come with a Beanie including solar cells and a wind turbine, a fanny-pack for the battery, and a tump line for the phone itself. They will throw in the blue-tooth earpiece for free.

Go figure.


Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

nospam wrote on 1/10/2018 10:44 AM:
In article , rickman
wrote:

False. Android phones absolutely do throttle the CPU secretly with no
warning:

https://stackoverflow.com/q/11883404/6540130

Well yes of course the CPU gets throttled to prevent overheating.

Why would the CPU overheat?

because the user is doing something cpu intensive for an extended
period of time causing the cpu to get hot.

You completely ignore the issue. CPUs overheating mean the CPU cooling is
not designed appropriately. Just like the cooling in a car. If I drive and
my car overheats the problem is the car wasn't designed correctly or is
broken. Cooling systems should be designed to cool the thing they are
cooling.

i'm not ignoring anything.

if you drive your car in extreme situations, it likely will overheat,
possibly with other failures too.

you can see these people on the side of the road on hot summer days.

Yes, because there is something *wrong* with their car, not because it is
expected for cars to stop working when it is warm. *Your* car didn't fail
did it? Did everyone's cars fail? No, only the cars that had a defect.

If your car is under warranty and it overheats on a very hot summer day, do
they say, "Hey, it was a hot day"? No, they fix it!


Most computers are designed with adequate
cooling capacity.

they are, for normal everyday use. push it hard, such as playing a
graphics intensive game, and it will get warm, possibly very warm.

What? You aren't supposed to play games on a computer? LOL

nonsense. games are extremely popular on mobile devices.

So it is reasonable to expect a mobile device to run games without
overheating? If not, then it sounds like mobile devices are real crap!


there are no fans in a mobile phone. there is no room for a large
heatsink on the processor.

They also don't run the same sort of programs as PCs.

yes they do. the obvious ones are email and web browsing, but many
people also edit photos and videos on their phones.

None of which will cause a mobile device to overheat. Why are you just
disputing everything I say without paying any attention to the context?


But they are
computers and need to be designed to keep cool when being used and not to
burst into flames because someone played a game too long.

and they are.

if it gets too warm, it has to throttle.

Or it can be designed with adequate passive cooling.

it is, but everything has limits.

Yes, and those limits should be beyond anything a user can do. It's very
easy. Every CPU has a figure for the maximum power dissipation. The phone
needs to be able to dissipate that much power or the CPU will overheat.
Isn't that easy?


Overheating in a phone would be very bad. High
temperatures in a phone heat the Lithium battery which can in extreme cases
catch fire.

yep, which is why it has to be throttled.

Or better, cooled.

right, because a phone with a large heatsink sticking out the back and
a fan that's always on will sell.

not.

You clearly know nothing about designing mobile electronics. I'm done with
this discussion with you.

--

Rick C

Viewed the eclipse at Wintercrest Farms,
on the centerline of totality since 1998

nospam wrote on 1/10/2018 10:44 AM:
In article , rickman
wrote:

Go read the warranty for your location.

I don't own an Apple Phone

you don't need to own one to read the warranty information.

here's what motorola has to say:

https://motorola-global-portal.custh...wnloads/AUS-On
e_Year_Warranty.pdf
MOBILE PHONES & TABLETS (³Product²)
....
This Warranty Does Not Apply to:
(a) Consumable parts, such as batteries or protective coatings
designed to diminish over time unless failure has occurred due to a
defect in materials or workmanship. As with all batteries, the
maximum capacity of the battery will decrease with time and use; this
is not a defect. Only defective batteries and batteries that leak are
covered by this warranty.

note the key sentence:
As with all batteries, the maximum capacity of the battery will
decrease with time and use; this is not a defect.

Note the key sentence:

"unless failure has occurred due to a defect in materials or workmanship."

it's not a defect in materials or workmanship.

*all* batteries degrade over time. there is no getting around that, at
least with today's technology.

maybe at some point in the future there will be an eternal power source
that never wears out. that time is not now.

Yep, all batteries degrade with time and use. But the batteries in question
degraded more and faster than Apple expected requiring action on their part
after the sale.


I think that is what Apple has said is happening to their batteries. Aren't
they fixing this problem in newer phones with better batteries. If the old
batteries aren't bad, why would they need to fix them?

no.



--

Rick C

Viewed the eclipse at Wintercrest Farms,
on the centerline of totality since 1998

nospam wrote on 1/10/2018 10:44 AM:
In article , rickman
wrote:

It had nothing to do with avoiding the warranty. Period.

How can you make that assertion?


Worn out batteries may not be covered by the warranty.

"May not"? Why wouldn't a battery be covered under warranty? It isn't
specifically excluded.

batteries are excluded because they are a consumable part.

only if it's defective is it covered under warranty. normal wear and
tear is *not* covered.

if the battery fails a diagnostic test (or any other component) it will
be replaced under warranty. if it passes, then there's no reason to
replace it.

Did you read this in the Apple warranty? I'd like to see a copy.

https://www.apple.com/legal/warranty...ty-document-us.
html
This Warranty does not apply: (a) to consumable parts, such as
batteries or protective coatings that are designed to diminish over
time, unless failure has occurred due to a defect in materials or
workmanship; ...

it's a standard disclaimer.

"unless failure has occurred due to a defect in materials or
workmanship;"

Enough said.


The only test I really care about is running the phone the way it did when
new. If it doesn't do that the diagnostic test is pointless.

it's not a pointless test.

there's a big difference between a battery that's at 95% capacity after
a year (well within normal range) versus one that's at 60% capacity in
the same time frame, or has swollen or some other defect.

A diagnostic is used to catch eminent failures or batteries that are
degrading faster than expected. It is not the criteria for replacing a
battery. If the battery won't operate the phone as the phone was intended
to be operated, it doesn't matter what the diagnostic says.

Done here. Argue with yourself.

--

Rick C

Viewed the eclipse at Wintercrest Farms,
on the centerline of totality since 1998

wrote on 1/10/2018 10:26 AM:
On Wednesday, January 10, 2018 at 10:04:29 AM UTC-5, rickman wrote:


So, every car comes with a battery warranty. If it fails to start your car
within the warranty period you get a replacement. Why are you arguing this?

!@#$%^ apples and (*&^%$ oranges! That batter warranty (if it exists):

Has not one damned thing to do with the vehicle warranty - and must be pursued separately from the vehicle warranty if a claim is necessary. Why are you so dense as to not "GET" that?

It's still covered by a warranty, why are you so dense you don't GET it?

I'm done these pointless arguments.

--

Rick C

Viewed the eclipse at Wintercrest Farms,
on the centerline of totality since 1998

In article , rickman
wrote:

You completely ignore the issue. CPUs overheating mean the CPU cooling is
not designed appropriately. Just like the cooling in a car. If I drive
and
my car overheats the problem is the car wasn't designed correctly or is
broken. Cooling systems should be designed to cool the thing they are
cooling.

i'm not ignoring anything.

if you drive your car in extreme situations, it likely will overheat,
possibly with other failures too.

you can see these people on the side of the road on hot summer days.

Yes, because there is something *wrong* with their car, not because it is
expected for cars to stop working when it is warm. *Your* car didn't fail
did it? Did everyone's cars fail? No, only the cars that had a defect.

nothing is wrong with the vehicle.

If your car is under warranty and it overheats on a very hot summer day, do
they say, "Hey, it was a hot day"? No, they fix it!

there isn't anything to fix.

Most computers are designed with adequate
cooling capacity.

they are, for normal everyday use. push it hard, such as playing a
graphics intensive game, and it will get warm, possibly very warm.

What? You aren't supposed to play games on a computer? LOL

nonsense. games are extremely popular on mobile devices.

So it is reasonable to expect a mobile device to run games without
overheating? If not, then it sounds like mobile devices are real crap!

they run them perfectly fine.

there are no fans in a mobile phone. there is no room for a large
heatsink on the processor.

They also don't run the same sort of programs as PCs.

yes they do. the obvious ones are email and web browsing, but many
people also edit photos and videos on their phones.

None of which will cause a mobile device to overheat. Why are you just
disputing everything I say without paying any attention to the context?

editing videos certainly can.

do you even own a smartphone?

But they are
computers and need to be designed to keep cool when being used and not to
burst into flames because someone played a game too long.

and they are.

if it gets too warm, it has to throttle.

Or it can be designed with adequate passive cooling.

it is, but everything has limits.

Yes, and those limits should be beyond anything a user can do. It's very
easy. Every CPU has a figure for the maximum power dissipation. The phone
needs to be able to dissipate that much power or the CPU will overheat.
Isn't that easy?

there's a *lot* more to it than just that.

Overheating in a phone would be very bad. High
temperatures in a phone heat the Lithium battery which can in extreme
cases catch fire.

yep, which is why it has to be throttled.

Or better, cooled.

right, because a phone with a large heatsink sticking out the back and
a fan that's always on will sell.

not.

You clearly know nothing about designing mobile electronics.

far more than you do, that much is clear.

I'm done with
this discussion with you.

good.

In article , rickman
wrote:

"unless failure has occurred due to a defect in materials or workmanship."

it's not a defect in materials or workmanship.

*all* batteries degrade over time. there is no getting around that, at
least with today's technology.

maybe at some point in the future there will be an eternal power source
that never wears out. that time is not now.

Yep, all batteries degrade with time and use.

exactly the point.

But the batteries in question
degraded more and faster than Apple expected requiring action on their part
after the sale.

no they didn't.

they are well within normal expected range.

In article , rickman
wrote:

The only test I really care about is running the phone the way it did when
new. If it doesn't do that the diagnostic test is pointless.

it's not a pointless test.

there's a big difference between a battery that's at 95% capacity after
a year (well within normal range) versus one that's at 60% capacity in
the same time frame, or has swollen or some other defect.

A diagnostic is used to catch eminent failures or batteries that are
degrading faster than expected. It is not the criteria for replacing a
battery. If the battery won't operate the phone as the phone was intended
to be operated, it doesn't matter what the diagnostic says.

yes it does matter what the diagnostic says. that's why it's called a
diagnostic.

and the battery is *not* degrading faster than expected either.

On Wednesday, January 10, 2018 at 11:54:12 AM UTC-5, rickman wrote:


It's still covered by a warranty, why are you so dense you don't GET it?

Which has nothing to do with the phone. You keep conflating the two.

Fox's Mercantile wrote:
On 1/10/18 9:02 AM, rickman wrote:

I don't own an Apple Phone

So you don't even have a dog in this race.

He does, it's just his dog lives under a bridge. ; )

--
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR

rickman wrote:
nospam wrote on 1/10/2018 10:44 AM:

it's not a defect in materials or workmanship.

*all* batteries degrade over time. there is no getting around that, at
least with today's technology.

maybe at some point in the future there will be an eternal power source
that never wears out. that time is not now.

Yep, all batteries degrade with time and use. But the batteries in question
degraded more and faster

That's your trollish assumption. Repeating it doesn't make it factual.
There's no actual evidence that Apple's batteries degrade faster than
others.

--
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR

rickman wrote:

Done here.

Bye, Felicia.

--
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR

On 2018-01-10, rickman wrote:
wrote on 1/7/2018 2:01 PM:

It had nothing to do with avoiding the warranty. Period.

How can you make that assertion?

Since you are the one who originally stated "the user experience is
being impacted to mitigate the problems of a battery that is degrading
prematurely in order to avoid warranty replacements", the onus is on
you. So go right ahead and prove that's the case, if you can.

We'll wait...

--
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR

On 2018-01-10, rickman wrote:
nospam wrote on 1/10/2018 10:02 AM:

if the battery fails a diagnostic test (or any other component) it
will be replaced under warranty. if it passes, then there's no reason
to replace it.

The only test I really care about is running the phone the way it did
when new. If it doesn't do that the diagnostic test is pointless.

You don't even own an iPhone.

Meanwhile I know plenty of people (including me) who use their iPhones
for 3-5 years with no problem without replacing the battery. There's no
evidence of a widespread defect in Apple's batteries, just like there's
no evidence that the majority of them die within a year.

--
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR

On Wed, 10 Jan 2018 08:53:31 -0500, rickman
wrote:

wrote on 1/7/2018 2:01 PM:

It had nothing to do with avoiding the warranty. Period.

How can you make that assertion?

Because I've followed it starting with IOS 10.1 that explained what
they were doing.

On Wednesday, January 10, 2018 at 1:13:59 PM UTC-5, Jolly Roger wrote:


Meanwhile I know plenty of people (including me) who use their iPhones
for 3-5 years with no problem without replacing the battery. There's no
evidence of a widespread defect in Apple's batteries, just like there's
no evidence that the majority of them die within a year.

My wife walked into the Apple Store in Willow Grove, PA on December 28th. They took one look at her phone (I-6) and replaced her battery - no cost. Her complaint was that it did not hold a charge. It did not. Verizon sent her to Apple as they do not cover batteries or the physical phone itself.

Her phone two (2) years old.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

On Wed, 10 Jan 2018 10:02:49 -0500, rickman
wrote:

joe wrote on 1/10/2018 9:51 AM:
On 01/10/2018 08:44 AM, rickman wrote:
joe wrote on 1/10/2018 9:06 AM:
On 01/10/2018 07:53 AM, rickman wrote:
wrote on 1/7/2018 2:01 PM:

It had nothing to do with avoiding the warranty. Period.

How can you make that assertion?


Worn out batteries may not be covered by the warranty.

"May not"? Why wouldn't a battery be covered under warranty? It isn't
specifically excluded.



I said "may" as warranties vary by country. In the US: "This Warranty does
not apply: (a) to consumable parts, such as batteries..."

Go read the warranty for your location.

I don't own an Apple Phone

Then:
1. What's your complaint?
2. Why are you posting to an iPhone newsgroup?

On Wednesday, January 10, 2018 at 9:01:10 AM UTC-5, rickman wrote:
nospam wrote on 1/7/2018 1:42 PM:
In article , rickman
wrote:

I think a battery that prevents the device from running at full speed
because the unit shuts down would be considered to be "truly defective".

if *you* were the product manager, what would *you* do, given that
batteries age and there's no getting around that?

Everything wears out. If I sold autos and gave a 3 year, 36,000 mile
warranty and had customers who's cars used a quart or two of oil between
changes during the warranty period, would you think it reasonable that I
said, "engines wear, oil burns, no warranty claim" and then secretly updated
firmware in all my customer's engines, that prevented the oil leak/burn but
prevented the engine from running at full capacity?

No one would tolerate this from any manufacturer.

Harry may be a bit of a odd ball, but he is right that you are blowing smoke
about this. The fact that batteries wear does not mean a phone can't be
designed that won't have it's performance limited by the battery during the
warranty period. Get over it and quit saying "batteries age" like it is a
holy mantra. Yeah, they age and the product should be designed with that in
mind so the product still works 100% during the warranty period.


and if you are going to make an update that effects performance,
don't try to keep it secret.

Or more probably, work at 75% performance potential throughout the warranty period. Throttled from day 1 so that no degradation is applied.

This is more common than you might imagine!

Terry

Yeah, they age and the product should be designed with that in
mind so the product still works 100% during the warranty period.

--

Rick C

Viewed the eclipse at Wintercrest Farms,
on the centerline of totality since 1998

On 1/10/18 11:13 AM, Jolly Roger wrote:
That's your trollish assumption. Repeating it doesn't
make it factual.

€œYou are entitled to your opinion. But you are not entitled
to your own facts.€�

ۥ Daniel Patrick Moynihan



--
"I am a river to my people."
Jeff-1.0
WA6FWi
http:foxsmercantile.com

On Wednesday, January 10, 2018 at 4:04:50 PM UTC-5, Fox's Mercantile wrote:
On 1/10/18 11:13 AM, Jolly Roger wrote:
That's your trollish assumption. Repeating it doesn't
make it factual.

€œYou are entitled to your opinion. But you are not entitled
to your own facts.€�

ۥ Daniel Patrick Moynihan

A better quote:

€œYou are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your informed opinion. No one is entitled to be ignorant.€�

- Harlan Ellison

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

On 1/10/2018 7:18 AM, rickman wrote:

So they don't work "fine".Â* My understanding is if Apple didn't install
software to throttle the CPU the battery would cause the phone to
shutdown. That's not working "perfectly fine".

No.

Whether the battery is brand new, or three years old, if it's in a low
state of charge it could shut down under heavy processor demand.

Here are the good choices:

1. Shut the phone down before the battery is discharged to a level that
would cause an unexpected shutdown if high demand were placed on the
battery. If this event occurs after an abnormally short amount of
operating time, inform the user that a battery replacement is needed.

2. Reduce performance only when the battery is discharged to a level
that would cause an unexpected shutdown if high demand were placed on
the battery.

3. Give the user the option of a "battery-saver" mode that would reduce
performance in order to increase the operating time.

On 1/10/2018 7:22 AM, rickman wrote:

snip

Or it can be designed with adequate passive cooling.

That would needlessly reduce performance in most use. A lot of devices
are now designed with thermal sensors that allow a performance level
that cannot be sustained for long periods of time under certain conditions.

In article , sms
wrote:


So they don't work "fine".* My understanding is if Apple didn't install
software to throttle the CPU the battery would cause the phone to
shutdown. That's not working "perfectly fine".

No.

Whether the battery is brand new, or three years old, if it's in a low
state of charge it could shut down under heavy processor demand.

state of charge is not the issue. it's aging to where it can't supply
peak loads anymore, even if it's at full soc.

Here are the good choices:

1. Shut the phone down before the battery is discharged to a level that
would cause an unexpected shutdown if high demand were placed on the
battery. If this event occurs after an abnormally short amount of
operating time, inform the user that a battery replacement is needed.

that exists now.

2. Reduce performance only when the battery is discharged to a level
that would cause an unexpected shutdown if high demand were placed on
the battery.

that's what apple is doing (and some android makers even though they
refuse to outright admit it).

3. Give the user the option of a "battery-saver" mode that would reduce
performance in order to increase the operating time.

that also exists now.

In comp.mobile.android Jolly Roger wrote:
On 2018-01-10, rickman wrote:
nospam wrote on 1/10/2018 10:02 AM:

if the battery fails a diagnostic test (or any other component) it
will be replaced under warranty. if it passes, then there's no reason
to replace it.

The only test I really care about is running the phone the way it did
when new. If it doesn't do that the diagnostic test is pointless.

You don't even own an iPhone.

Meanwhile I know plenty of people (including me) who use their iPhones
for 3-5 years with no problem without replacing the battery. There's no
evidence of a widespread defect in Apple's batteries, just like there's
no evidence that the majority of them die within a year.

Still using an old iPhone 4S with its original battery. I don't use it
much. Its batttery life does suck badly (e.g., could shut it down within
30 minutes with Pokemon Go), but the key part is not to use it often and
under control. Also, I keep its cellular, backaground apps, etc. in
control. I wonder how much longer I can keep using it before replacing
it or its battery (probably not worth it since its iOS is so old, slow,
and unsupported).

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On Wed, 10 Jan 2018 15:04:40 -0600, Fox's Mercantile wrote:

+IBw-You are entitled to your opinion. But you are not entitled
to your own facts.+IB0-

Bear in mind that Fox' Mercantile is the utter moron Snit, who is again,
lamely following people around the net like the little retard child he is.

This is a moving graph of what Snit/Fox's Mercantile claimed was dB!
http://wetakepic.com/images/2017/10/11/wifi_sweetspots.jpg

All Fox's Mercantile/Snit saw was a moving graph for heavens' sake.

Snit/Fox's Mercantile is *that* stupid!

Just look at this hilarious video, where he makes an utter fool of himself,
and doesn't even realize that he probably the *dumbest* of all the Apple
Apologists, even dumber than is Jolly Roger and Lewis (which is hard to
fathom).

Proof that Snit/Fox's Mercantile is an utter moron Apple Apologist:
https://youtu.be/7QaABa6DFIo

Snit === Fox's Mercantile

On Wed, 10 Jan 2018 09:47:10 -0600, Fox's Mercantile wrote:

So you don't even have a dog in this race.

Bear in mind that Fox' Mercantile is the utter moron Snit, who is again,
lamely following people around the net like the little retard child he is.

This is a moving graph of what Snit/Fox's Mercantile claimed was dB!
http://wetakepic.com/images/2017/10/11/wifi_sweetspots.jpg

All Fox's Mercantile/Snit saw was a moving graph for heavens' sake.

Snit/Fox's Mercantile is *that* stupid!

Just look at this hilarious video, where he makes an utter fool of himself,
and doesn't even realize that he probably the *dumbest* of all the Apple
Apologists, even dumber than is Jolly Roger and Lewis (which is hard to
fathom).

Proof that Snit/Fox's Mercantile is an utter moron Apple Apologist:
https://youtu.be/7QaABa6DFIo

Snit === Fox's Mercantile

On Wed, 10 Jan 2018 10:44:39 -0500, nospam wrote:

*all* batteries degrade over time. there is no getting around that, at
least with today's technology.

Only Apple iPhones "begin to fall apart after a year".

https://www.theverge.com/circuitbrea...also-a-problem
"Apple is knowingly designing and selling products that
begin to fall apart after a year"

On Wed, 10 Jan 2018 12:06:39 -0500, nospam wrote:

Yep, all batteries degrade with time and use.

exactly the point.

Classic Apple Apologists distort reason because facts shake their belief
system to the core.

Saying all batteries degrade with time and use is correct, but only Apple
iPhone batteries consistently fail within a year such that CPU speeds need
to be halved to "prolong the life of the iPhone".

The Apple Apologists are making an analogy akin to saying all people age
and die, so what does it matter if a huge number of them die within a year.

https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/a...ight-to-repair
"If Apple were serious about battery life, they+IBk-d market battery
replacements," instead of fighting the government to prevent
the consumer from easily replacing the battery themselves.

On Wed, 10 Jan 2018 11:49:55 -0500, rickman wrote:

Yep, all batteries degrade with time and use. But the batteries in question
degraded more and faster than Apple expected requiring action on their part
after the sale.

"iPhones start slowing down after a year of use, and that+IBk-s way too soon"
https://www.theverge.com/circuitbreaker/2017/12/20/16803190/iphone-slowdown-is-needed-but-also-a-problem

I agree with your logic, rickman, but you're dealing with Apple Apologists
whose very belief system is shaken off its foundations when the truth about
Apple is revealed to them.

I just supplied a quote that says only Apple iPhones "begin to fall apart
after a year", which is the main point. In Europe, that's within the
whole-phone warranty period, and certainly within the whole-phone warranty
period of the Android LG Stylo 3 Plus phones I bought over Christmas.

The point is that a year is too soon, and it only happens, en masse, with
Apple, and Apple is the ONLY manufacturer who throttles the CPU with an iOS
update (secretly in the past, and more openly in the future).

Basically, you must logically *halve* any benchmark for an iPhone, if you
plan to own an iPhone for more than a year.

On Sun, 7 Jan 2018 19:22:09 -0600, Fox's Mercantile wrote:

Actually, he's doing an excellent job on Rickman.


Bear in mind that Fox' Mercantile is the utter moron Snit, who is again,
lamely following people around the net like the little retard child he is.

This is a moving graph of what Snit/Fox's Mercantile claimed was dB!
http://wetakepic.com/images/2017/10/11/wifi_sweetspots.jpg

All Fox's Mercantile/Snit saw was a moving graph for heavens' sake.

Snit/Fox's Mercantile is *that* stupid!

Just look at this hilarious video, where he makes an utter fool of himself,
and doesn't even realize that he probably the *dumbest* of all the Apple
Apologists, even dumber than is Jolly Roger and Lewis (which is hard to
fathom).

Proof that Snit/Fox's Mercantile is an utter moron Apple Apologist:
https://youtu.be/7QaABa6DFIo

Snit === Fox's Mercantile