On 2/17/2017 10:56 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 17 Feb 2017 11:47:28 -0500, Jack wrote:

On 2/16/2017 6:19 PM, Leon wrote:
On 2/16/2017 10:17 AM, Jack wrote:
On 2/14/2017 9:07 PM, wrote:

I was told that the brake fluid should be replaced on shedule to keep
the brake lines from rotting out.

First I ever heard of that.



Brake fluid absorbs moisture. When the master cylinder gets low,
because it is not topped of on regular intervals, It becomes
contaminated from the moisture in the air. If you have ever rebuilt
wheel cylinders or a disk brake caliper, always lubricated with brake
fluid, you will often find pitting on the cylinder walls. That is from
the moisture in the brake fluid.

In my youth I rebuilt plenty of them. Rebuilt plenty of engines as well.
Still, I never replaced brake fluid as routine maintenance ever, never
had a garage or dealer advise me to have brake fluid replaced either.
My GM dealer last time I was there had a 5 foot sign advising to have
your cooling system flushed and new anti freeze for some ridiculous
price, but not a word on replacing brake fluid.

Perhaps their keeping it a secret so your brake lines will rust out and
they'll sell more cars when you run into the back of another car. Just
another planned obsolescence scheme?

Or perhaps you don't listen?

Or perhaps I do!

--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com

On 2/16/2017 1:57 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 16 Feb 2017 11:17:16 -0500, Jack wrote:

On 2/14/2017 9:07 PM, wrote:

I was told that the brake fluid should be replaced on shedule to keep
the brake lines from rotting out.

First I ever heard of that.
Brake fluid is hygroscopic - it attracts moisture -and the moisture
can cause corrosion inside the lines and cyls. The water tends to end
up in the low spots. On newer vehicles where the master reservoirs are
sealed much better thasn in the past (with rubber bellows etc) it is a
LITTLE less critical (3 years rather than 2 often recommended). The
new synthetic brake fluids stand up a wee bit better too.

It appears to me, from looking at rusted brake lines that they are not
rusting from the inside out, but from the outside in. This would make
sense as even if Brake fluid is hygroscopic, air would be needed to get
them to rust. Shouldn't be too much air in brake lines. Also, someone
told me they painted their brake lines with Z-bart stuff, and never had
one rust out since doing that...

My guess is Stainless lines would not rust. Not sure how much pressure
is in a brake line, but shouldn't be all that much. Looking around
seems about a max of 2000psi, not much and easily accommodated with even
thin wall stainless tubing.

--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com

On 2/18/2017 11:31 AM, Jack wrote:
On 2/17/2017 1:11 PM, Leon wrote:
On 2/17/2017 10:57 AM, Jack wrote:

Engineering is always a compromise.

Perhaps a few $Billion in fines would help them compromise on the side
of a safe braking system, rather than $billions for fudging on MPG...

Don't take this like I am ganging up on you. ;~)

A billion dollar fine for an auto manufacturer for a brake problem that
I was never aware of when I was in that business, service manager of an
Oldsmobile dealer. And this may actually be more common in recent years
but up until 1995 not really a thing except in isolated cases.

Did they even have anti-lock brakes when you were in the business. My
2001 GMC truck was the first vehicle I owned with ABS brakes, and they
were a clear safety hazard as they failed routinely.

I do not think so, when I worked for the dealership, cehicles having
anti lock brakes. But my 97 Chevy Silverado did and they worked as
advertised on numerous occasions. But that is not to say that there was
no possibility of a problem. Had this been an inherent problem or
happening often there certainly would have been a campaign/recall.



How about a billion dollar fine against all TS manufacturers that did
not care about our safety enough to build a safer saw when they had the
opportunity. I will give you the possibility that it may have been
expensive. But giving you that, the brand that out sells all others in
the USA pretty much is the most expensive saw in it's class.

How many died from stubbing their toe, or whacking off a finger on a TS?
Many thousands die in auto accidents, and many more are seriously
injured, far worse than 99.999% of table saw accidents.

I highly suspect that people dying in auto injuries is less of a result
of complete brake failure.

On 2/18/2017 8:47 AM, Brewster wrote:
On 2/16/17 8:44 PM, wrote:


Impossible to pump it dry because it is a split reservoir too - but if
you blow the front system and the rear is out of adjustment (extremely
common - auto adjusters stuck and rear brakes not serviced - or
handbrake never used - required to operate the adjusters) and there is
not enough volume pumped from the bottomed rear piston to fully apply
the rear brakes. If you don't "brain freeze" and get a second pump in,
you have a chance to slow down, if not totally stop


All the drum brakes I'm familiar with are adjusted by hitting the brakes
while traveling in reverse. Each event indexes the star adjuster by one
notch. Parking brakes, as used with drums, merely mechanically apply
force to a lever on the drum mechanism, no effect on the adjuster.

-BR

Parking brakes very often are the method of adjusting parking brakes,
drum or disk. Many of the hand operated parking brakes on GM vehicles
adjusted the drum brakes this way. And many of those had no star/screw
type adjuster, they had a one way friction plate that only adjusted out.

On Sat, 18 Feb 2017 08:26:17 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 2/17/2017 7:48 PM, wrote:

I had to look up "Fluid Film", which appears to
be a water repellant waxy lubricant. The clips
are a typical environment for crevice corrosion
and something like Fluid Film would potentially
be a good countermeasure.
Not just potentially - has been for decades.
It is a lanolin based thixotropic lubricant.
Being thixotropic it stays in place, but works itself into any spot
where there is movement between parts. It contains NO SOLVENTS so it
never really dries. It has been used in industry for many years and
has been the "go to" spray lubricant for fussy mechanics for close to
20 years. It has replaced spray lubriplate in all the high end shops
around here - and on the Canadian East Coast it is used quite
extensively as and underbody anti-rust treatment on vehicles. It is
replacing RustChek on a lot of farms for preventing rust on stored
equipment (like plow moldbords etc)

Seems it would be good to use on the inner workings of a table saw.
Thoughts on that?
Works good. It catches some sawdust when exposed though.

On 2/18/2017 4:41 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 18 Feb 2017 08:26:17 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 2/17/2017 7:48 PM, wrote:

I had to look up "Fluid Film", which appears to
be a water repellant waxy lubricant. The clips
are a typical environment for crevice corrosion
and something like Fluid Film would potentially
be a good countermeasure.
Not just potentially - has been for decades.
It is a lanolin based thixotropic lubricant.
Being thixotropic it stays in place, but works itself into any spot
where there is movement between parts. It contains NO SOLVENTS so it
never really dries. It has been used in industry for many years and
has been the "go to" spray lubricant for fussy mechanics for close to
20 years. It has replaced spray lubriplate in all the high end shops
around here - and on the Canadian East Coast it is used quite
extensively as and underbody anti-rust treatment on vehicles. It is
replacing RustChek on a lot of farms for preventing rust on stored
equipment (like plow moldbords etc)

Seems it would be good to use on the inner workings of a table saw.
Thoughts on that?
Works good. It catches some sawdust when exposed though.



Too late! LOL
I bought a can at Lowe's and sprayed it on the gears, lift/tilt screws,
and the large steel guide dowels. No more groaning when I crank the
adjustment wheel quickly.
I tried dry lube on all of that but it did not seem to last very long.
From the factory it had grease but that caught dust all so no big deal.

Kind'a stinks though. ;~)

On Sat, 18 Feb 2017 07:47:32 -0700, Brewster wrote:

On 2/16/17 8:44 PM, wrote:


Impossible to pump it dry because it is a split reservoir too - but if
you blow the front system and the rear is out of adjustment (extremely
common - auto adjusters stuck and rear brakes not serviced - or
handbrake never used - required to operate the adjusters) and there is
not enough volume pumped from the bottomed rear piston to fully apply
the rear brakes. If you don't "brain freeze" and get a second pump in,
you have a chance to slow down, if not totally stop


All the drum brakes I'm familiar with are adjusted by hitting the brakes
while traveling in reverse. Each event indexes the star adjuster by one
notch. Parking brakes, as used with drums, merely mechanically apply
force to a lever on the drum mechanism, no effect on the adjuster.

-BR
That is true on Bendix and Wagner brakes, as well as DElco Moraine but
not many import brakes and a lot of later model Chrysler brakes that
use a "ratchet" instead of a theaded adjuster and star wheel.

see:
http://www.autozone.com/repairguides...96b43f802d6ca5
for one example (Chrysler)

Also, vehicles that have a star wheel adjuster up by the cyl instead
of down at the bottom also adjust by emergency brake application - not
backing up. Homda is an example. These are "fixed anchor" or "dual
servo" brakes.
Toyota works this way too. I was looking for a good picture and found
this one - for a Tundra - showing very clearly it is the hand
brake/parking brake that adjusts the rear drum brakes..

http://www.4x4wire.com/toyota/mainte...es/image30.jpg


and this one shows the old Dodge K car and Omni style.

http://www.ifitjams.com/parking.htm

On Sat, 18 Feb 2017 12:31:11 -0500, Jack wrote:

On 2/17/2017 1:11 PM, Leon wrote:
On 2/17/2017 10:57 AM, Jack wrote:

Engineering is always a compromise.

Perhaps a few $Billion in fines would help them compromise on the side
of a safe braking system, rather than $billions for fudging on MPG...

Don't take this like I am ganging up on you. ;~)

A billion dollar fine for an auto manufacturer for a brake problem that
I was never aware of when I was in that business, service manager of an
Oldsmobile dealer. And this may actually be more common in recent years
but up until 1995 not really a thing except in isolated cases.

Did they even have anti-lock brakes when you were in the business. My
2001 GMC truck was the first vehicle I owned with ABS brakes, and they
were a clear safety hazard as they failed routinely. Brake lines
rusting out is also somewhat new I believe. Never had any rust out
until the 3 GM vehicles I owned since 2001. So that is 100% brake line
failure for GM vehicles. The fact you are/were unaware of the problem
means little to me. The fact I became aware from first hand experience,
and both garages I go to were also aware of it. I suspect the ABS
problem has been fixed, not so sure about the brake lines, but I quit
buying GM products, so won't ever have additional 1st hand experience
with them. Also, someone sent me the GM recall on the ABS, and the fix
was to clean the sensors. THAT didn't work, but shows there certainly
was a problem, besides just my truck.

The problem has not been fixed - and not JUST on GMs. There was ABS on
my '95 Trans Sport, and on my 1995 Mystique as well

snip
Well, I've never been injured by a table saw in almost 60 years of
usage, with no safety devices, and I know only one person that has ever
been cut, and it was not serious, and he was not very handy. Wait, I
also know a mechanic that got cut on a saw, also not very seriously, but
he was handy, but also drunk...;;
Don't know anyone personally injured on a table saw, but I know a
friend who lost a few fingers to a handheld circular saw

He's not as "handy" as he used to be - - - -

On Sat, 18 Feb 2017 13:11:04 -0500, Jack wrote:

On 2/16/2017 1:57 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 16 Feb 2017 11:17:16 -0500, Jack wrote:

On 2/14/2017 9:07 PM, wrote:

I was told that the brake fluid should be replaced on shedule to keep
the brake lines from rotting out.

First I ever heard of that.
Brake fluid is hygroscopic - it attracts moisture -and the moisture
can cause corrosion inside the lines and cyls. The water tends to end
up in the low spots. On newer vehicles where the master reservoirs are
sealed much better thasn in the past (with rubber bellows etc) it is a
LITTLE less critical (3 years rather than 2 often recommended). The
new synthetic brake fluids stand up a wee bit better too.

It appears to me, from looking at rusted brake lines that they are not
rusting from the inside out, but from the outside in.

You are correct. Most of the reust is from outside in - and most where
the like is either running through a chassis memner, running through a
clip, or is an area where mud and salt and other crap gets trapped -
holding moisture to the line.

One exception was early VW Rabbits where the brake lines ran inside
the car, under the "horsehair" noise cushion - which got soaked when
the cowl leaked up around the windshield. The fuse panels corroded
out, the brake lines rotted out, and so did the floor.
Really a LOUSY design.
This would make
sense as even if Brake fluid is hygroscopic, air would be needed to get
them to rust. Shouldn't be too much air in brake lines. Also, someone
told me they painted their brake lines with Z-bart stuff, and never had
one rust out since doing that...

I even know guys who just took a tube of synthetic grease and smeared
it over all the vulnerable parts. Not rocket science to prevent the
failure - yet the manufacturers have not gotten it figured out yet.
My guess is Stainless lines would not rust. Not sure how much pressure
is in a brake line, but shouldn't be all that much. Looking around
seems about a max of 2000psi, not much and easily accommodated with even
thin wall stainless tubing.

On Sat, 18 Feb 2017 13:09:41 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 2/18/2017 11:31 AM, Jack wrote:
On 2/17/2017 1:11 PM, Leon wrote:
On 2/17/2017 10:57 AM, Jack wrote:

Engineering is always a compromise.

Perhaps a few $Billion in fines would help them compromise on the side
of a safe braking system, rather than $billions for fudging on MPG...

Don't take this like I am ganging up on you. ;~)

A billion dollar fine for an auto manufacturer for a brake problem that
I was never aware of when I was in that business, service manager of an
Oldsmobile dealer. And this may actually be more common in recent years
but up until 1995 not really a thing except in isolated cases.

Did they even have anti-lock brakes when you were in the business. My
2001 GMC truck was the first vehicle I owned with ABS brakes, and they
were a clear safety hazard as they failed routinely.

I do not think so, when I worked for the dealership, cehicles having
anti lock brakes. But my 97 Chevy Silverado did and they worked as
advertised on numerous occasions. But that is not to say that there was
no possibility of a problem. Had this been an inherent problem or
happening often there certainly would have been a campaign/recall.



How about a billion dollar fine against all TS manufacturers that did
not care about our safety enough to build a safer saw when they had the
opportunity. I will give you the possibility that it may have been
expensive. But giving you that, the brand that out sells all others in
the USA pretty much is the most expensive saw in it's class.

How many died from stubbing their toe, or whacking off a finger on a TS?
Many thousands die in auto accidents, and many more are seriously
injured, far worse than 99.999% of table saw accidents.

I highly suspect that people dying in auto injuries is less of a result
of complete brake failure.

correct. Mechanical failure is cited in only 10-15% of all automotive
accidents (and that includes things like brake or turn signal lamps
not working) with tire and wheel problems being the majority and total
brake loss WAY down the list.

In the list of causes of fatal auto colisions, mechanical failure
doesn't even make the top 25.

On Sat, 18 Feb 2017 13:13:57 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 2/18/2017 8:47 AM, Brewster wrote:
On 2/16/17 8:44 PM, wrote:


Impossible to pump it dry because it is a split reservoir too - but if
you blow the front system and the rear is out of adjustment (extremely
common - auto adjusters stuck and rear brakes not serviced - or
handbrake never used - required to operate the adjusters) and there is
not enough volume pumped from the bottomed rear piston to fully apply
the rear brakes. If you don't "brain freeze" and get a second pump in,
you have a chance to slow down, if not totally stop


All the drum brakes I'm familiar with are adjusted by hitting the brakes
while traveling in reverse. Each event indexes the star adjuster by one
notch. Parking brakes, as used with drums, merely mechanically apply
force to a lever on the drum mechanism, no effect on the adjuster.

-BR

Parking brakes very often are the method of adjusting parking brakes,
drum or disk. Many of the hand operated parking brakes on GM vehicles
adjusted the drum brakes this way. And many of those had no star/screw
type adjuster, they had a one way friction plate that only adjusted out.
Correct. althogh MOST north anerican built GM cars DID have the
star-wheel

On Sat, 18 Feb 2017 16:57:21 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 2/18/2017 4:41 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 18 Feb 2017 08:26:17 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 2/17/2017 7:48 PM, wrote:

I had to look up "Fluid Film", which appears to
be a water repellant waxy lubricant. The clips
are a typical environment for crevice corrosion
and something like Fluid Film would potentially
be a good countermeasure.
Not just potentially - has been for decades.
It is a lanolin based thixotropic lubricant.
Being thixotropic it stays in place, but works itself into any spot
where there is movement between parts. It contains NO SOLVENTS so it
never really dries. It has been used in industry for many years and
has been the "go to" spray lubricant for fussy mechanics for close to
20 years. It has replaced spray lubriplate in all the high end shops
around here - and on the Canadian East Coast it is used quite
extensively as and underbody anti-rust treatment on vehicles. It is
replacing RustChek on a lot of farms for preventing rust on stored
equipment (like plow moldbords etc)

Seems it would be good to use on the inner workings of a table saw.
Thoughts on that?
Works good. It catches some sawdust when exposed though.



Too late! LOL
I bought a can at Lowe's and sprayed it on the gears, lift/tilt screws,
and the large steel guide dowels. No more groaning when I crank the
adjustment wheel quickly.
I tried dry lube on all of that but it did not seem to last very long.
From the factory it had grease but that caught dust all so no big deal.

Kind'a stinks though. ;~)
Not as bad as some other stuff out there. And what do expect, with
the main ingredient coming from a sheep???

On Sat, 18 Feb 2017 12:37:25 -0500, Jack wrote:

On 2/17/2017 10:56 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 17 Feb 2017 11:47:28 -0500, Jack wrote:

On 2/16/2017 6:19 PM, Leon wrote:
On 2/16/2017 10:17 AM, Jack wrote:
On 2/14/2017 9:07 PM, wrote:

I was told that the brake fluid should be replaced on shedule to keep
the brake lines from rotting out.

First I ever heard of that.



Brake fluid absorbs moisture. When the master cylinder gets low,
because it is not topped of on regular intervals, It becomes
contaminated from the moisture in the air. If you have ever rebuilt
wheel cylinders or a disk brake caliper, always lubricated with brake
fluid, you will often find pitting on the cylinder walls. That is from
the moisture in the brake fluid.

In my youth I rebuilt plenty of them. Rebuilt plenty of engines as well.
Still, I never replaced brake fluid as routine maintenance ever, never
had a garage or dealer advise me to have brake fluid replaced either.
My GM dealer last time I was there had a 5 foot sign advising to have
your cooling system flushed and new anti freeze for some ridiculous
price, but not a word on replacing brake fluid.

Perhaps their keeping it a secret so your brake lines will rust out and
they'll sell more cars when you run into the back of another car. Just
another planned obsolescence scheme?

Or perhaps you don't listen?

Or perhaps I do!

Obviously not.

On 2/18/17 4:15 PM, wrote:

That is true on Bendix and Wagner brakes, as well as DElco Moraine but
not many import brakes and a lot of later model Chrysler brakes that
use a "ratchet" instead of a theaded adjuster and star wheel.

see:
http://www.autozone.com/repairguides...96b43f802d6ca5
for one example (Chrysler)

Also, vehicles that have a star wheel adjuster up by the cyl instead
of down at the bottom also adjust by emergency brake application - not
backing up. Homda is an example. These are "fixed anchor" or "dual
servo" brakes.
Toyota works this way too. I was looking for a good picture and found
this one - for a Tundra - showing very clearly it is the hand
brake/parking brake that adjusts the rear drum brakes..

http://www.4x4wire.com/toyota/mainte...es/image30.jpg


and this one shows the old Dodge K car and Omni style.

http://www.ifitjams.com/parking.htm


Good to know, thanks!

-BR

On 2/18/17 12:09 PM, Leon wrote:
On 2/18/2017 11:31 AM, Jack wrote:
On 2/17/2017 1:11 PM, Leon wrote:
On 2/17/2017 10:57 AM, Jack wrote:

Engineering is always a compromise.

Perhaps a few $Billion in fines would help them compromise on the side
of a safe braking system, rather than $billions for fudging on MPG...

Don't take this like I am ganging up on you. ;~)

A billion dollar fine for an auto manufacturer for a brake problem that
I was never aware of when I was in that business, service manager of an
Oldsmobile dealer. And this may actually be more common in recent years
but up until 1995 not really a thing except in isolated cases.

Did they even have anti-lock brakes when you were in the business. My
2001 GMC truck was the first vehicle I owned with ABS brakes, and they
were a clear safety hazard as they failed routinely.

I do not think so, when I worked for the dealership, cehicles having
anti lock brakes. But my 97 Chevy Silverado did and they worked as
advertised on numerous occasions. But that is not to say that there was
no possibility of a problem. Had this been an inherent problem or
happening often there certainly would have been a campaign/recall.



I have a 98 Dodge Ram (oxymoron, I know 8^), ABS equipped (rear axle
only). Since a pickup can have a widely varying load on the rear tires,
the ABS helped may rear brakes actually do some work. The truck has
been reliable with the notable exception of the rear axle speed sensor
failing. I would have never known except for the ABS dash light. It sure
puckered my wallet when I saw it, knowing how much ABS repairs can cost,
but a few bucks for a new sensor (screws into the top of the
differential housing) and the peasants rejoiced.

I am a former gear head, rebuilt everything, and loved doing it, but
since getting old and despising crawling under things now, I only change
my own oil. Everything else gets put on hold until summer time.
-BR

On 2/16/2017 1:57 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 16 Feb 2017 11:17:16 -0500, Jack wrote:

On 2/14/2017 9:07 PM, wrote:

I was told that the brake fluid should be replaced on shedule to keep
the brake lines from rotting out.

First I ever heard of that.
Brake fluid is hygroscopic - it attracts moisture -and the moisture
can cause corrosion inside the lines and cyls. The water tends to end
up in the low spots. On newer vehicles where the master reservoirs are
sealed much better thasn in the past (with rubber bellows etc) it is a
LITTLE less critical (3 years rather than 2 often recommended). The
new synthetic brake fluids stand up a wee bit better too.



This was a few years ago, but I remember the old standby DOT 3 fluid
(maybe DOT 4?) was considered permanent and was not prone to being
hydroscopic. The newer fluids, synthetic (DOT 5 ?) was very prone to
absorbing moisture and had to be changed regularly. Given the much
higher cost and no real advantage for non-performance driving. the idea
of "upgrading" soon left my thoughts.
I had a number of vehicles from the 60's and 70's, all with non
stainless lines. Never any problems (though these were all southwest
vehicles).

-BR

On 2/18/17 7:15 PM, wrote:


One exception was early VW Rabbits where the brake lines ran inside
the car, under the "horsehair" noise cushion - which got soaked when
the cowl leaked up around the windshield. The fuse panels corroded
out, the brake lines rotted out, and so did the floor.
Really a LOUSY design.


This brings back memories!

A buddy back in college had a Floridian Rabbit, '75 I think. Total rust
bucket. As the car coughed and sputtered, dropping chunks of rust onto
the road, my buddies and I riding along would nod at each other and say
"farfegnugen, cool!"

-BR

On 2/18/2017 9:28 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 18 Feb 2017 13:09:41 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet

I highly suspect that people dying in auto injuries is less of a result
of complete brake failure.

correct. Mechanical failure is cited in only 10-15% of all automotive
accidents (and that includes things like brake or turn signal lamps
not working) with tire and wheel problems being the majority and total
brake loss WAY down the list.

In the list of causes of fatal auto colisions, mechanical failure
doesn't even make the top 25.

If only 1% die from brake failure, that would be 3-400 a year. If
"they" completely banned the use of ALL saws, I think the lives saved
would be about ZERO.

Proving someone died because their ABS system failed would be next to
impossible, at least in my truck it was intermittent. Rusted lines
would be easier to prove, but looking at a mangled wreck, one might
expect a brake line to be ripped apart. Also, when I was a kid, and
worked in a collision shop, never once do I remember anyone trying to
determine if a mechanical failure caused the wreck. This may have
changed, but I doubt it.

A friend of my wife ran though the side of a building and she said her
gas pedal stuck. Could easily have been brake failure IMO. I believe
it was a Lexus and people were suing them for stuck gas pedals.

--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com

On 2/18/2017 10:47 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 18 Feb 2017 12:37:25 -0500, Jack wrote:

On 2/17/2017 10:56 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 17 Feb 2017 11:47:28 -0500, Jack wrote:

On 2/16/2017 6:19 PM, Leon wrote:
On 2/16/2017 10:17 AM, Jack wrote:
On 2/14/2017 9:07 PM, wrote:

I was told that the brake fluid should be replaced on shedule to keep
the brake lines from rotting out.

First I ever heard of that.



Brake fluid absorbs moisture. When the master cylinder gets low,
because it is not topped of on regular intervals, It becomes
contaminated from the moisture in the air. If you have ever rebuilt
wheel cylinders or a disk brake caliper, always lubricated with brake
fluid, you will often find pitting on the cylinder walls. That is from
the moisture in the brake fluid.

In my youth I rebuilt plenty of them. Rebuilt plenty of engines as well.
Still, I never replaced brake fluid as routine maintenance ever, never
had a garage or dealer advise me to have brake fluid replaced either.
My GM dealer last time I was there had a 5 foot sign advising to have
your cooling system flushed and new anti freeze for some ridiculous
price, but not a word on replacing brake fluid.

Perhaps their keeping it a secret so your brake lines will rust out and
they'll sell more cars when you run into the back of another car. Just
another planned obsolescence scheme?

Or perhaps you don't listen?

Or perhaps I do!

Obviously not.

Obviously I do.

--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com

On 2/19/2017 9:31 AM, Brewster wrote:

This was a few years ago, but I remember the old standby DOT 3 fluid
(maybe DOT 4?) was considered permanent and was not prone to being
hydroscopic. The newer fluids, synthetic (DOT 5 ?) was very prone to
absorbing moisture and had to be changed regularly. Given the much
higher cost and no real advantage for non-performance driving. the idea
of "upgrading" soon left my thoughts.
I had a number of vehicles from the 60's and 70's, all with non
stainless lines. Never any problems (though these were all southwest
vehicles).

Same here, except my vehicles were in the rust belt, and started in the
50's rather than the 60's. Actually my first car was a '49 Dodge Truck.
Everything in Cars from the '50s rusted except the frame and break lines.

Even if newer fluid is more hygroscopic, I still think the rust is
coming from the outside, not the inside of the lines.

IF the newer fluid was causing brake line failure, you might think Big
Brother would be all over it, like they got over freon in air
conditioners, or VW for fudging the MPG stats.

--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com

On 2/19/2017 9:37 AM, Brewster wrote:
On 2/18/17 7:15 PM, wrote:


One exception was early VW Rabbits where the brake lines ran inside
the car, under the "horsehair" noise cushion - which got soaked when
the cowl leaked up around the windshield. The fuse panels corroded
out, the brake lines rotted out, and so did the floor.
Really a LOUSY design.


This brings back memories!

A buddy back in college had a Floridian Rabbit, '75 I think. Total rust
bucket. As the car coughed and sputtered, dropping chunks of rust onto
the road, my buddies and I riding along would nod at each other and say
"farfegnugen, cool!"

My wife bought a '79 Honda Accord. It was car of the year. Nice car but
a total rust bucket. EVERYTHING rusted out. Hood, fenders, gas tank,
Strut suspension. I thought my '55 Ford Crown Vic was a rust bucket,
not even close. Honda fixed most of it under warranty, had to lose
money on that one. How does a hood rust? So much for Car of the year crap.

--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com

On Sunday, February 19, 2017 at 10:29:39 AM UTC-5, Jack wrote:
On 2/18/2017 9:28 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 18 Feb 2017 13:09:41 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet

I highly suspect that people dying in auto injuries is less of a result
of complete brake failure.

correct. Mechanical failure is cited in only 10-15% of all automotive
accidents (and that includes things like brake or turn signal lamps
not working) with tire and wheel problems being the majority and total
brake loss WAY down the list.

In the list of causes of fatal auto colisions, mechanical failure
doesn't even make the top 25.

If only 1% die from brake failure, that would be 3-400 a year. If
"they" completely banned the use of ALL saws, I think the lives saved
would be about ZERO.

Proving someone died because their ABS system failed would be next to
impossible, at least in my truck it was intermittent. Rusted lines
would be easier to prove, but looking at a mangled wreck, one might
expect a brake line to be ripped apart. Also, when I was a kid, and
worked in a collision shop, never once do I remember anyone trying to
determine if a mechanical failure caused the wreck. This may have
changed, but I doubt it.

One could assume that with the advancement of accident reconstruction
capabilities it might not be that hard to determine if a rusted brake
line was the cause.

Visual inspection of the brake lines, even if mangled, could show a
difference between "collision mangled" in some sections and "blown out rust
spots" in others. Lack of skid marks, brake fluid upstream from the
accident site, the vehicle's black box, etc. could all help in making the
determination.

Any of the teams from the various CSI's would have it figured out in the
first 10 minutes. ;-)


A friend of my wife ran though the side of a building and she said her
gas pedal stuck. Could easily have been brake failure IMO. I believe
it was a Lexus and people were suing them for stuck gas pedals.


The daughter of a co-worker recently drove her boyfriend's pick-up into a
utility pole - by choice.

She was driving downhill towards a red light at a very busy intersection.
She applied the brake and the pedal went right to the floor. Being a fairly
young driver (18) and in her first real emergency situation, her first thought
wasn't to try the emergency brake, it was to *not* go through the red light.

She chose the pole instead, which did a real good job of stopping the truck.
Poor kid. She had to quit high school sports because of multiple concussions
and then suffered a serious one during the accident.

On Sun, 19 Feb 2017 07:31:44 -0700, Brewster wrote:


On 2/16/2017 1:57 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 16 Feb 2017 11:17:16 -0500, Jack wrote:

On 2/14/2017 9:07 PM, wrote:

I was told that the brake fluid should be replaced on shedule to keep
the brake lines from rotting out.

First I ever heard of that.
Brake fluid is hygroscopic - it attracts moisture -and the moisture
can cause corrosion inside the lines and cyls. The water tends to end
up in the low spots. On newer vehicles where the master reservoirs are
sealed much better thasn in the past (with rubber bellows etc) it is a
LITTLE less critical (3 years rather than 2 often recommended). The
new synthetic brake fluids stand up a wee bit better too.



This was a few years ago, but I remember the old standby DOT 3 fluid
(maybe DOT 4?) was considered permanent and was not prone to being
hydroscopic. The newer fluids, synthetic (DOT 5 ?) was very prone to
absorbing moisture and had to be changed regularly. Given the much
higher cost and no real advantage for non-performance driving. the idea
of "upgrading" soon left my thoughts.
I had a number of vehicles from the 60's and 70's, all with non
stainless lines. Never any problems (though these were all southwest
vehicles).

-BR

Dot3 and DOT5 were VERY hygroscopic. Law required fluid only be sold
from a sealed can.( I was a mechanic back in the late sixties)
DOT5 is hydrophobic, meaning moisture is not absorbed.
All fluids up to DOT4 were poly-glycol based while DOT5 is a silicon
based synthetic. NEVER mix Dot5 with Dot4 or below. Dot5.1 is an
acceptable substitute, but NEVER mix it with Dot5. Any vehicle using
DOT5 should be CLEARLY LABELLED as such. It is technically illegal to
use DOT5 in a vehicle not originally built with and spec'd for DOT5
fluid.

NO DOT fluid has EVER been sold as or considered to be a "permanent"
fluid.. Look up "wet boiling point" and "dry boiling point for DOT
Brake Fluid.. PolyGlycol fluids absorb up to 3% water per year....

On Sun, 19 Feb 2017 10:29:31 -0500, Jack wrote:

On 2/18/2017 9:28 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 18 Feb 2017 13:09:41 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet

I highly suspect that people dying in auto injuries is less of a result
of complete brake failure.

correct. Mechanical failure is cited in only 10-15% of all automotive
accidents (and that includes things like brake or turn signal lamps
not working) with tire and wheel problems being the majority and total
brake loss WAY down the list.

In the list of causes of fatal auto colisions, mechanical failure
doesn't even make the top 25.

If only 1% die from brake failure, that would be 3-400 a year. If
"they" completely banned the use of ALL saws, I think the lives saved
would be about ZERO.

Proving someone died because their ABS system failed would be next to
impossible, at least in my truck it was intermittent. Rusted lines
would be easier to prove, but looking at a mangled wreck, one might
expect a brake line to be ripped apart. Also, when I was a kid, and
worked in a collision shop, never once do I remember anyone trying to
determine if a mechanical failure caused the wreck. This may have
changed, but I doubt it.

A friend of my wife ran though the side of a building and she said her
gas pedal stuck. Could easily have been brake failure IMO. I believe
it was a Lexus and people were suing them for stuck gas pedals.
and 90%+ of those "stuck gas pedals" were stuck to the floor by a
panicked driver's right foot.
There are virtually NO incidents of a "stuck accellerator pedal"
causing an accident without previous signs of trouble like high idle
speeds or sticky-notchy accelerator action. They NEVER failed
catastrophically with no warning. Whether the driver heeded the
warning or not is another question. The failure mode was a gradual
deterioration causing slow return to idle and/or stiffer throttle
actuation before failure.

Many reports said something like "I had both feet on the brake and it
STILL would not stop" Brake Idle Algorytm solved that issue by
forcing the throttle to idle imediately if the brake pedal was
depressed, but made it impossible to drive the vehicle agressively by
locking the rear wheels with the foot brake while powering through the
"slipperystuff" forcing the vehicle into oversteer. by hanging the
rear end out.

Whacking the brake pedal in the "marbles" was an effective way of
getting the rear to hang out on the R12 rallye car - and simpler than
pulling the hand brake.

On 2/19/2017 3:19 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 19 Feb 2017 10:29:31 -0500, Jack wrote:

On 2/18/2017 9:28 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 18 Feb 2017 13:09:41 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet

I highly suspect that people dying in auto injuries is less of a result
of complete brake failure.

correct. Mechanical failure is cited in only 10-15% of all automotive
accidents (and that includes things like brake or turn signal lamps
not working) with tire and wheel problems being the majority and total
brake loss WAY down the list.

In the list of causes of fatal auto colisions, mechanical failure
doesn't even make the top 25.

If only 1% die from brake failure, that would be 3-400 a year. If
"they" completely banned the use of ALL saws, I think the lives saved
would be about ZERO.

Proving someone died because their ABS system failed would be next to
impossible, at least in my truck it was intermittent. Rusted lines
would be easier to prove, but looking at a mangled wreck, one might
expect a brake line to be ripped apart. Also, when I was a kid, and
worked in a collision shop, never once do I remember anyone trying to
determine if a mechanical failure caused the wreck. This may have
changed, but I doubt it.

A friend of my wife ran though the side of a building and she said her
gas pedal stuck. Could easily have been brake failure IMO. I believe
it was a Lexus and people were suing them for stuck gas pedals.
and 90%+ of those "stuck gas pedals" were stuck to the floor by a
panicked driver's right foot.
There are virtually NO incidents of a "stuck accellerator pedal"
causing an accident without previous signs of trouble like high idle
speeds or sticky-notchy accelerator action. They NEVER failed
catastrophically with no warning. Whether the driver heeded the
warning or not is another question. The failure mode was a gradual
deterioration causing slow return to idle and/or stiffer throttle
actuation before failure.

Many reports said something like "I had both feet on the brake and it
STILL would not stop" Brake Idle Algorytm solved that issue by
forcing the throttle to idle imediately if the brake pedal was
depressed, but made it impossible to drive the vehicle agressively by
locking the rear wheels with the foot brake while powering through the
"slipperystuff" forcing the vehicle into oversteer. by hanging the
rear end out.

Whacking the brake pedal in the "marbles" was an effective way of
getting the rear to hang out on the R12 rallye car - and simpler than
pulling the hand brake.


It is still a mystery to me why they did not simply shift into neutral
or turn the ignition off.

On 2/19/2017 4:33 PM, Leon wrote:


Many reports said something like "I had both feet on the brake and it
STILL would not stop" Brake Idle Algorytm solved that issue by
forcing the throttle to idle imediately if the brake pedal was
depressed, but made it impossible to drive the vehicle agressively by
locking the rear wheels with the foot brake while powering through the
"slipperystuff" forcing the vehicle into oversteer. by hanging the
rear end out.

Whacking the brake pedal in the "marbles" was an effective way of
getting the rear to hang out on the R12 rallye car - and simpler than
pulling the hand brake.


It is still a mystery to me why they did not simply shift into neutral
or turn the ignition off.

Lack of common sense, lack of training, panic. It is a strange feeling
to push down and have to brakes though.

On Sun, 19 Feb 2017 10:54:58 -0500, Jack wrote:

On 2/19/2017 9:31 AM, Brewster wrote:

This was a few years ago, but I remember the old standby DOT 3 fluid
(maybe DOT 4?) was considered permanent and was not prone to being
hydroscopic. The newer fluids, synthetic (DOT 5 ?) was very prone to
absorbing moisture and had to be changed regularly. Given the much
higher cost and no real advantage for non-performance driving. the idea
of "upgrading" soon left my thoughts.
I had a number of vehicles from the 60's and 70's, all with non
stainless lines. Never any problems (though these were all southwest
vehicles).

Same here, except my vehicles were in the rust belt, and started in the
50's rather than the 60's. Actually my first car was a '49 Dodge Truck.
Everything in Cars from the '50s rusted except the frame and break lines.

Even if newer fluid is more hygroscopic, I still think the rust is
coming from the outside, not the inside of the lines.

The brake lines on the '57 Fargo (Canadian Dodge) P'Up rusted too. I
replaced them (and rebuilt cyls) for Dad before I left for Africa back
in 1972 - so they were only 15 years old. When my brother redid the
truck circa 1975 the mechanic doing the safety assumed the lines were
original and yanked them off saying they needed replacing. ( just to
show it was common to consider 15 year old lines to have passed their
"best before date") I tore a strip off him about 1/4 inch thick when I
came back from Africa in '75 and the truck was sitting on stands
waiting for wheel cyls and flex hoses, as well as grease seals (it was
a VERY rare Custom Express with heavy duty suspension (basically a 3/4
ton front axle) and the big 241.5 cubic inch flatty -(Same
displacement as the 53-54 Red Ram Hemi).
It was quite possibly a "one of". It took me just over a week to
source all the parts and re-install them - and I told the mechanic and
garage owner (both "family friends") they could tear up any bill
associated with the job AND sign the safety. (Still cost several
hundred dollars in un-necessary parts - as well as delaying my brother
getting it on the road for over 2 months).

I ended up trading my kid brother a 2 or 3 year old Colt wagon for the
truck a couple months later and drove and showed the truck for several
years after completing it.

When I rebuilt my '53 Coronet Sierra (a Van Nuys Californis car) in
1972 I had to replace all of the brake lines as well. - it was only 18
years old..
I scrapped my 1985 LeBaron T&C wagon in about 1994 (it was only 9
years old) when both the brake lines and chassis rotted away.
My 1995 Mystique lost it's brakes due to a rusted line in about 2004
- about 9 years old. It was only a section about 5 or 6 inches long
that had rusted, so I cut the line back to a solid point, flared it,
and spliced in a short hunk of CuNi line I happened to have left over
from another job.

Back when I was an apprentice machanic, back 1968 -1971) I replaced a
LOT of brake and fuel lines on cars from the fifties and sixties.
1959-!961 Chevies were BAD for rust, as were '57--63 Mopars and just
about any Ford newer than 1954. Brake lines, fuel lines, fuel tanks,
and unit bodies - rear spring shackles coming up into the trunk of
Darts and Valiants was pretty common - and Falcons too. And front
fenders developing "zipper fenders" on '63 Ramblers within 3 years.

I got rid of my '63 Valiant when I bought my 2 year old '69 Dart and I
replaced the brake line across the rear axle on that one too - so it
was less than 8 years old when I had to replace rusted lines - and
that was a single system - so when you lost fluid, you lost ALL of the
brakes.

My current vehicles are15 and 21 years old - with all original lines -
I DID need to replace the fuel tank on the 15 year old Taurus due to
rust perforation (just about the only rust on the car)

IF the newer fluid was causing brake line failure, you might think Big
Brother would be all over it, like they got over freon in air
conditioners, or VW for fudging the MPG stats.
It's not the fluid causing the line failures. It's a combination
of"cost engineering" and atmospheric conditions. (Road salt, humidity,
etc)

I'd have to say the problems are LESS pervasive now than in earlier
years. I BUY cars now at the age I used to have to sell./scrap cars
50 years ago, and then I drive them up to another 10 or 12 years!!!!

On Sun, 19 Feb 2017 11:01:22 -0500, Jack wrote:

On 2/19/2017 9:37 AM, Brewster wrote:
On 2/18/17 7:15 PM, wrote:


One exception was early VW Rabbits where the brake lines ran inside
the car, under the "horsehair" noise cushion - which got soaked when
the cowl leaked up around the windshield. The fuse panels corroded
out, the brake lines rotted out, and so did the floor.
Really a LOUSY design.


This brings back memories!

A buddy back in college had a Floridian Rabbit, '75 I think. Total rust
bucket. As the car coughed and sputtered, dropping chunks of rust onto
the road, my buddies and I riding along would nod at each other and say
"farfegnugen, cool!"

My wife bought a '79 Honda Accord. It was car of the year. Nice car but
a total rust bucket. EVERYTHING rusted out. Hood, fenders, gas tank,
Strut suspension. I thought my '55 Ford Crown Vic was a rust bucket,
not even close. Honda fixed most of it under warranty, had to lose
money on that one. How does a hood rust? So much for Car of the year crap.
Was there a 1979 car you could buy that WASN'T a total rust bucket??
1855 to 1961 - or even 1969, and 1978 to 1986 just about EVERYTHING
was a rust bucket.

In 1982 you could sit on your front porch and listen to your new
Torino rust on the driveway. Not uncommon for the driver's mirror and
about 35 square inches of rust-worm infested sheet metal to fall out
of the door before it was 3 years old.. It wasn't uncommon to see
strips of duct tape around the windsheild on 3 or 4 year old cars to
keep the water from dripping on the driver's foot in the rain - didn't
matter WHO made the car..
The front fenders on my brother's 1977 Dodge AshBin (oops, that was
SUPPOSED to be Aspen) had the front fenders replaced under warranty at
2 years of age due to rust PERFORATION..

They say "they don't make 'em like they used to" - and I say "THANK
GOD!!!!"

On Sun, 19 Feb 2017 08:58:25 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:


The daughter of a co-worker recently drove her boyfriend's pick-up into a
utility pole - by choice.

She was driving downhill towards a red light at a very busy intersection.
She applied the brake and the pedal went right to the floor. Being a fairly
young driver (18) and in her first real emergency situation, her first thought
wasn't to try the emergency brake, it was to *not* go through the red light.

She chose the pole instead, which did a real good job of stopping the truck.
Poor kid. She had to quit high school sports because of multiple concussions
and then suffered a serious one during the accident.

Total instant brake failure is more likely to be a bad master cyl
than a blown line - unless the brakes are also WAY out of adjustment
(to the point the pedal was "seriously" low) previous to the failure.

If the rear drum brakes are "loose as a goose" and a front line goes
south, there is not enough displacement in the master cyl to
effectively apply the rear brakes on the first pump. (and then the
rear brakes on an unloaded Pickup truck going downhill are not going
to be anything close to effective in stopping the vehicle anyway)
The properly functionig rear brakes on my 21 year old Ranger are
still original, and about half lining left when I checked them last
fall - at 350,000km while the front pads are set#3 (and now running on
oversized 11 inch rotors) - so you know the rears are not doing a heck
of a lot of work - and mine has several hundred pounds of cap and
bed-liner)

On Sun, 19 Feb 2017 15:33:19 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 2/19/2017 3:19 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 19 Feb 2017 10:29:31 -0500, Jack wrote:

On 2/18/2017 9:28 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 18 Feb 2017 13:09:41 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet

I highly suspect that people dying in auto injuries is less of a result
of complete brake failure.

correct. Mechanical failure is cited in only 10-15% of all automotive
accidents (and that includes things like brake or turn signal lamps
not working) with tire and wheel problems being the majority and total
brake loss WAY down the list.

In the list of causes of fatal auto colisions, mechanical failure
doesn't even make the top 25.

If only 1% die from brake failure, that would be 3-400 a year. If
"they" completely banned the use of ALL saws, I think the lives saved
would be about ZERO.

Proving someone died because their ABS system failed would be next to
impossible, at least in my truck it was intermittent. Rusted lines
would be easier to prove, but looking at a mangled wreck, one might
expect a brake line to be ripped apart. Also, when I was a kid, and
worked in a collision shop, never once do I remember anyone trying to
determine if a mechanical failure caused the wreck. This may have
changed, but I doubt it.

A friend of my wife ran though the side of a building and she said her
gas pedal stuck. Could easily have been brake failure IMO. I believe
it was a Lexus and people were suing them for stuck gas pedals.
and 90%+ of those "stuck gas pedals" were stuck to the floor by a
panicked driver's right foot.
There are virtually NO incidents of a "stuck accellerator pedal"
causing an accident without previous signs of trouble like high idle
speeds or sticky-notchy accelerator action. They NEVER failed
catastrophically with no warning. Whether the driver heeded the
warning or not is another question. The failure mode was a gradual
deterioration causing slow return to idle and/or stiffer throttle
actuation before failure.

Many reports said something like "I had both feet on the brake and it
STILL would not stop" Brake Idle Algorytm solved that issue by
forcing the throttle to idle imediately if the brake pedal was
depressed, but made it impossible to drive the vehicle agressively by
locking the rear wheels with the foot brake while powering through the
"slipperystuff" forcing the vehicle into oversteer. by hanging the
rear end out.

Whacking the brake pedal in the "marbles" was an effective way of
getting the rear to hang out on the R12 rallye car - and simpler than
pulling the hand brake.


It is still a mystery to me why they did not simply shift into neutral
or turn the ignition off.
It's called "panic" and fear that they would have no control with
theengine shut off ( well -duh!!! you have no control now either -
right??)
"common sense" today isn't very common - sadly.

On 2/19/2017 4:19 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 19 Feb 2017 10:29:31 -0500, Jack wrote:

A friend of my wife ran though the side of a building and she said her
gas pedal stuck. Could easily have been brake failure IMO. I believe
it was a Lexus and people were suing them for stuck gas pedals.

and 90%+ of those "stuck gas pedals" were stuck to the floor by a
panicked driver's right foot.

There are virtually NO incidents of a "stuck accellerator pedal"
causing an accident without previous signs of trouble like high idle
speeds or sticky-notchy accelerator action.

Yeah, I was skeptical myself.


Many reports said something like "I had both feet on the brake and it
STILL would not stop"

If you ever were barreling down the road at 50MPH in the summer on dry
pavement, touch your brakes to slow down and the ABS goes of, giving you
50% braking power as you approach a line of stopped cars in front of
you, you will very quickly be standing on your brake pedal. Taught me
that my brake pedal would not break, or bend under immense force brought
on by a rapidly building panic that I was not going to stop in time.
Force vs a computer, computer wins. Fortunately I was not in a hurry
that day, and knew there was traffic at that spot every day, and had
allowed plenty of room to slowly come to a stop. Stopped about a foot
behind the car in front, with both feet on the pedal. Very scary.

--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com

On 2/19/2017 4:53 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 2/19/2017 4:33 PM, Leon wrote:


Many reports said something like "I had both feet on the brake and it
STILL would not stop" Brake Idle Algorytm solved that issue by
forcing the throttle to idle imediately if the brake pedal was
depressed, but made it impossible to drive the vehicle agressively by
locking the rear wheels with the foot brake while powering through the
"slipperystuff" forcing the vehicle into oversteer. by hanging the
rear end out.

It is still a mystery to me why they did not simply shift into neutral
or turn the ignition off.

Lack of common sense, lack of training, panic. It is a strange feeling
to push down and have to brakes though.

Have you ever had to slam on your breaks to avoid hitting something?
Car in front of you slams on breaks to miss dog/deer/kid you hit your
brakes and nothing much happens, or the gas pedal is stuck. Zero chance
to shift into neutral, or open your hood, pull the ABS fuse and hit
brakes again.

In the case of my wife's girlfriend, she was pulling into a parking
space in front of a business, according to her, the gas pedal stuck and
she careened though the wall of the store. Her Lexus was totaled, but
the business suffered astronomical damages. I was skeptical of the
stuck gas pedal as the Lexus issue was pretty much debunked at the time.

--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com

On 2/19/2017 11:58 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Sunday, February 19, 2017 at 10:29:39 AM UTC-5, Jack wrote:

Proving someone died because their ABS system failed would be next to
impossible, at least in my truck it was intermittent. Rusted lines
would be easier to prove, but looking at a mangled wreck, one might
expect a brake line to be ripped apart. Also, when I was a kid, and
worked in a collision shop, never once do I remember anyone trying to
determine if a mechanical failure caused the wreck. This may have
changed, but I doubt it.

One could assume that with the advancement of accident reconstruction
capabilities it might not be that hard to determine if a rusted brake
line was the cause.

Yes, if anyone wants to undertake the task. Intermittent failure like
my GMC Truck ABS system would be impossible to figure out I'd think,
probably why the recall was to "clean the sensors" which works for a
brief time. Not even sure it works at all as they went off randomly,
not constantly.

Visual inspection of the brake lines, even if mangled, could show a
difference between "collision mangled" in some sections and "blown out rust
spots" in others. Lack of skid marks, brake fluid upstream from the
accident site, the vehicle's black box, etc. could all help in making the
determination.

I reckon if the FAA can determine the cause of planes falling out of the
sky, someone given enough time and resources could figure out the cause
of a car falling into a tree. My time spent in a collision shop (many,
many years ago) saw zero efforts made to figure out why someone got dead
in a wreck. Our shop had it in with the local police and all wrecks
were towed by us to our shop unless the owner insisted on someone else.
Dead ones never did... most people never did.

Any of the teams from the various CSI's would have it figured out in the
first 10 minutes. ;-)

For su-)

The daughter of a co-worker recently drove her boyfriend's pick-up into a
utility pole - by choice.

She was driving downhill towards a red light at a very busy intersection.
She applied the brake and the pedal went right to the floor. Being a fairly
young driver (18) and in her first real emergency situation, her first thought
wasn't to try the emergency brake, it was to *not* go through the red light.

She chose the pole instead, which did a real good job of stopping the truck.
Poor kid. She had to quit high school sports because of multiple concussions
and then suffered a serious one during the accident.

She's a real hero. Going through the red light could risk multiple
lives, she is one brave girl, good for her. I hope she was driving a
GMC vehicle and the brake lines rusted out, and she sues them for
millions, and they get fined more than VW did for fudging on MPG.

If it was a GM product, and it was rusted brake lines or ABS failure,
tell her I'd be happy to testify on the 100% brake failure on my last 3
GM purchases since 2001, as well as GM's failure to address or fix the
problems.
--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com

On 2/20/2017 9:30 AM, Jack wrote:


If you ever were barreling down the road at 50MPH in the summer on dry
pavement, touch your brakes to slow down and the ABS goes of, giving you
50% braking power as you approach a line of stopped cars in front of
you, you will very quickly be standing on your brake pedal. Taught me
that my brake pedal would not break, or bend under immense force brought
on by a rapidly building panic that I was not going to stop in time.
Force vs a computer, computer wins. Fortunately I was not in a hurry
that day, and knew there was traffic at that spot every day, and had
allowed plenty of room to slowly come to a stop. Stopped about a foot
behind the car in front, with both feet on the pedal. Very scary.


What set the ABS off? Are you saying it was not needed and cut braking
power to 50% ?

On 2/19/2017 5:10 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 19 Feb 2017 11:01:22 -0500, Jack wrote:

My wife bought a '79 Honda Accord. It was car of the year. Nice car but
a total rust bucket. EVERYTHING rusted out. Hood, fenders, gas tank,
Strut suspension. I thought my '55 Ford Crown Vic was a rust bucket,
not even close. Honda fixed most of it under warranty, had to lose
money on that one. How does a hood rust? So much for Car of the year crap.

Was there a 1979 car you could buy that WASN'T a total rust bucket??
1855 to 1961 - or even 1969, and 1978 to 1986 just about EVERYTHING
was a rust bucket.

I bought a 1978 GMC Van, and it didn't rust out after about 15 years. I
had it Z-barted immediately after purchase though.

In 1982 you could sit on your front porch and listen to your new
Torino rust on the driveway.

Before my wife bought the Accord, she bought a Maveric. I reckon around
1973-4. You absolutely could sit on the porch and listen to it rust away.

They say "they don't make 'em like they used to" - and I say "THANK
GOD!!!!"

Yes, particularly true of cars from the 50's. Bodies were bad, but
motors were pure junk. Well, not sure it was just the motors, motor oil
was junk as well. Tune up every 6 months or year, points, plugs,
condensor, plug wires (never brake fluid though:-)) Complete engine
rebuild after 30 -40,000 miles or so, if anything was left of the car.

My 2001 GMC PU has never been tuned up, runs and starts like it was
brand new. I now wish I would have had the thing Z barted. Outside of
truck looks new, underneath, rust city. Never saw a bumper rust like
this. My SIL stepped on the rear bumper one day (150lbs soaking wet)
and it bent in half. Looked new but underneath it was rust city.

GMC recalled the tailgate straps cause they could rust. No problem with
the bumper, designed to step on to get in the bed, breaking in half. He
could have easily been injured. If it had been me, I would have been
hurt.

--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com

On 2/20/2017 9:41 AM, Jack wrote:
On 2/19/2017 4:53 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 2/19/2017 4:33 PM, Leon wrote:


Many reports said something like "I had both feet on the brake and it
STILL would not stop" Brake Idle Algorytm solved that issue by
forcing the throttle to idle imediately if the brake pedal was
depressed, but made it impossible to drive the vehicle agressively by
locking the rear wheels with the foot brake while powering through the
"slipperystuff" forcing the vehicle into oversteer. by hanging the
rear end out.

It is still a mystery to me why they did not simply shift into neutral
or turn the ignition off.

Lack of common sense, lack of training, panic. It is a strange feeling
to push down and have to brakes though.

Have you ever had to slam on your breaks to avoid hitting something? Car
in front of you slams on breaks to miss dog/deer/kid you hit your brakes
and nothing much happens, or the gas pedal is stuck. Zero chance to
shift into neutral, or open your hood, pull the ABS fuse and hit brakes
again.

Sure, but many of the cases were long distance, not emergency stops. A
couple of them even had time to make a phone call or to call 911. In
those cases, plenty of time to react.



In the case of my wife's girlfriend, she was pulling into a parking
space in front of a business, according to her, the gas pedal stuck and
she careened though the wall of the store. Her Lexus was totaled, but
the business suffered astronomical damages. I was skeptical of the
stuck gas pedal as the Lexus issue was pretty much debunked at the time.


Most people don't pull into a paring spot with the gas pedal to the
floor either. Brakes can easily overcome modest engine power.

On Mon, 20 Feb 2017 09:30:48 -0500, Jack wrote:

On 2/19/2017 4:19 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 19 Feb 2017 10:29:31 -0500, Jack wrote:

A friend of my wife ran though the side of a building and she said her
gas pedal stuck. Could easily have been brake failure IMO. I believe
it was a Lexus and people were suing them for stuck gas pedals.

and 90%+ of those "stuck gas pedals" were stuck to the floor by a
panicked driver's right foot.

There are virtually NO incidents of a "stuck accellerator pedal"
causing an accident without previous signs of trouble like high idle
speeds or sticky-notchy accelerator action.

Yeah, I was skeptical myself.


Many reports said something like "I had both feet on the brake and it
STILL would not stop"

If you ever were barreling down the road at 50MPH in the summer on dry
pavement, touch your brakes to slow down and the ABS goes of, giving you
50% braking power as you approach a line of stopped cars in front of
you, you will very quickly be standing on your brake pedal. Taught me
that my brake pedal would not break, or bend under immense force brought
on by a rapidly building panic that I was not going to stop in time.
Force vs a computer, computer wins. Fortunately I was not in a hurry
that day, and knew there was traffic at that spot every day, and had
allowed plenty of room to slowly come to a stop. Stopped about a foot
behind the car in front, with both feet on the pedal. Very scary.
Gotta think like a pilot. Always keep a "safe landing spot" in sight
at all times. I was told by several cops to choose a guard rail over
the back of the vehicle ahead every time if you "know" you won't get
stopped in time. No chance of a careless driving charge sticking if
you can "proove" you recognized the danger, made a concious decision
on avoiding the colission, and acted on it. You may have made a faulty
decision - but making the decision and acting on it does NOT
constitute careless driving..

Also, releasing and re-applying the brake has about a 50% chance of
re-establishing braking power in the case of intermittently
misbehaving ABS . If you are aware that the ABS is flakey and you
continue to drive the vehicle, you better be allowing a lot of extra
stopping space AT ALL TIMES. Also be ready to use the emergency brake
if required. It will only give you rear brakes - but they will not be
released by the computer. Just don't lock them and slide the rear end
around causing you to loose ALL control of the vehicle. Don't want to
be charged with driving an unsafe vehicle

I have been known to use reverse to stop a vehicle with
malfunctioning brakes too. Hand brake to lock the rear brake, into
reverse and hit the gas. The rire rotating backwards had more effect
slowing the vehicle than just sliding locked!! (rear wheel drive) and
more effect "biting down" through packed snow than wheels rolling on
the snow due to ABS shutting off all 4 brakes. Using reverse cost me a
diff on the 69 dart when one wheel caught dry pavement while moving in
the opposite direction. Took the spider gear out and stopped the car
DEAD - right there. - but I didn't hit anything..

On Mon, 20 Feb 2017 09:42:07 -0500, Jack wrote:

On 2/19/2017 11:58 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Sunday, February 19, 2017 at 10:29:39 AM UTC-5, Jack wrote:

Proving someone died because their ABS system failed would be next to
impossible, at least in my truck it was intermittent. Rusted lines
would be easier to prove, but looking at a mangled wreck, one might
expect a brake line to be ripped apart. Also, when I was a kid, and
worked in a collision shop, never once do I remember anyone trying to
determine if a mechanical failure caused the wreck. This may have
changed, but I doubt it.

One could assume that with the advancement of accident reconstruction
capabilities it might not be that hard to determine if a rusted brake
line was the cause.

Yes, if anyone wants to undertake the task. Intermittent failure like
my GMC Truck ABS system would be impossible to figure out I'd think,
probably why the recall was to "clean the sensors" which works for a
brief time. Not even sure it works at all as they went off randomly,
not constantly.


My ranger had the same "intermittent" false trigger - totally
unpredictable other than more likely to act up when cool and damp.
I cleaned all the grease off the reluctor wheel on the LF wheel hub
(part of the brake rotor on the Ranger) and the problem went away.
That was something around 3 years ago,
Visual inspection of the brake lines, even if mangled, could show a
difference between "collision mangled" in some sections and "blown out rust
spots" in others. Lack of skid marks, brake fluid upstream from the
accident site, the vehicle's black box, etc. could all help in making the
determination.

I reckon if the FAA can determine the cause of planes falling out of the
sky, someone given enough time and resources could figure out the cause
of a car falling into a tree. My time spent in a collision shop (many,
many years ago) saw zero efforts made to figure out why someone got dead
in a wreck. Our shop had it in with the local police and all wrecks
were towed by us to our shop unless the owner insisted on someone else.
Dead ones never did... most people never did.

Any of the teams from the various CSI's would have it figured out in the
first 10 minutes. ;-)

For su-)

The daughter of a co-worker recently drove her boyfriend's pick-up into a
utility pole - by choice.

She was driving downhill towards a red light at a very busy intersection.
She applied the brake and the pedal went right to the floor. Being a fairly
young driver (18) and in her first real emergency situation, her first thought
wasn't to try the emergency brake, it was to *not* go through the red light.

She chose the pole instead, which did a real good job of stopping the truck.
Poor kid. She had to quit high school sports because of multiple concussions
and then suffered a serious one during the accident.

She's a real hero. Going through the red light could risk multiple
lives, she is one brave girl, good for her. I hope she was driving a
GMC vehicle and the brake lines rusted out, and she sues them for
millions, and they get fined more than VW did for fudging on MPG.

If it was a GM product, and it was rusted brake lines or ABS failure,
tell her I'd be happy to testify on the 100% brake failure on my last 3
GM purchases since 2001, as well as GM's failure to address or fix the
problems.
Like I have stated, and given examples before, it is NOT just a GM
problem. GM buys it's lines from the same companies Ford and Chrysler
do. Likely Honda and Toyota and hyundai and all the other companies
that assemble vehicles in North America - whether that be Canada,
Mexico, or the USA.

ABS problems are a different story ---

On Mon, 20 Feb 2017 10:07:21 -0500, Jack wrote:

On 2/19/2017 5:10 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 19 Feb 2017 11:01:22 -0500, Jack wrote:

My wife bought a '79 Honda Accord. It was car of the year. Nice car but
a total rust bucket. EVERYTHING rusted out. Hood, fenders, gas tank,
Strut suspension. I thought my '55 Ford Crown Vic was a rust bucket,
not even close. Honda fixed most of it under warranty, had to lose
money on that one. How does a hood rust? So much for Car of the year crap.

Was there a 1979 car you could buy that WASN'T a total rust bucket??
1855 to 1961 - or even 1969, and 1978 to 1986 just about EVERYTHING
was a rust bucket.

I bought a 1978 GMC Van, and it didn't rust out after about 15 years. I
had it Z-barted immediately after purchase though.

Might have been your salvation, but SOME of the Ziebart treatments
just guaranteed the vehicle WOULD rust - by blocking drainage holes,
and flaking loose after any damage, trapping moisture and salt between
the ziebart film and the metal. Has a LOT of "Ziebart Initiated Rust
Perforation " up here in those years.

In 1982 you could sit on your front porch and listen to your new
Torino rust on the driveway.

Before my wife bought the Accord, she bought a Maveric. I reckon around
1973-4. You absolutely could sit on the porch and listen to it rust away.

They say "they don't make 'em like they used to" - and I say "THANK
GOD!!!!"

Yes, particularly true of cars from the 50's. Bodies were bad, but
motors were pure junk. Well, not sure it was just the motors, motor oil
was junk as well. Tune up every 6 months or year, points, plugs,
condensor, plug wires (never brake fluid though:-)) Complete engine
rebuild after 30 -40,000 miles or so, if anything was left of the car.

My 2001 GMC PU has never been tuned up, runs and starts like it was
brand new. I now wish I would have had the thing Z barted. Outside of
truck looks new, underneath, rust city. Never saw a bumper rust like
this. My SIL stepped on the rear bumper one day (150lbs soaking wet)
and it bent in half. Looked new but underneath it was rust city.

GMC recalled the tailgate straps cause they could rust. No problem with
the bumper, designed to step on to get in the bed, breaking in half. He
could have easily been injured. If it had been me, I would have been
hurt.

On 2/20/2017 12:38 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 20 Feb 2017 09:30:48 -0500, Jack wrote:

On 2/19/2017 4:19 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 19 Feb 2017 10:29:31 -0500, Jack wrote:

A friend of my wife ran though the side of a building and she said her
gas pedal stuck. Could easily have been brake failure IMO. I believe
it was a Lexus and people were suing them for stuck gas pedals.

and 90%+ of those "stuck gas pedals" were stuck to the floor by a
panicked driver's right foot.

There are virtually NO incidents of a "stuck accellerator pedal"
causing an accident without previous signs of trouble like high idle
speeds or sticky-notchy accelerator action.

Yeah, I was skeptical myself.


Many reports said something like "I had both feet on the brake and it
STILL would not stop"

If you ever were barreling down the road at 50MPH in the summer on dry
pavement, touch your brakes to slow down and the ABS goes of, giving you
50% braking power as you approach a line of stopped cars in front of
you, you will very quickly be standing on your brake pedal. Taught me
that my brake pedal would not break, or bend under immense force brought
on by a rapidly building panic that I was not going to stop in time.
Force vs a computer, computer wins. Fortunately I was not in a hurry
that day, and knew there was traffic at that spot every day, and had
allowed plenty of room to slowly come to a stop. Stopped about a foot
behind the car in front, with both feet on the pedal. Very scary.
Gotta think like a pilot. Always keep a "safe landing spot" in sight
at all times. I was told by several cops to choose a guard rail over
the back of the vehicle ahead every time if you "know" you won't get
stopped in time. No chance of a careless driving charge sticking if
you can "proove" you recognized the danger, made a concious decision
on avoiding the colission, and acted on it. You may have made a faulty
decision - but making the decision and acting on it does NOT
constitute careless driving..

In my case the PO would say, you were driving too fast to begin with. ;~(
BUT it certainly would lessen the chance of being sued and or injuring
some one else.