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Default Not looking good for the Bosch Reaxx TS

In article dc9f137a-2000-4f3e-8836-4f450f8f8e27
@googlegroups.com,
says...

On Friday, February 10, 2017 at 9:55:24 PM UTC-6, wrote:

Driving has long been considered a privelege, not a right. Your
comparison doesn't hold water.


Do you consider using a table saw a right? I'd classify it as a privilege too. There is some document written hundreds of years ago talking about the pursuit of happiness. Maybe table saws fall under that saying. Using table saws is a privilege. The government can mandate insurance and/or safety devices.




Can anyone give an example of a law that required using a patented, licensed device?


This question still stands. Does anyone have an example of a government mandated device that was still under license and restricted? ABS, airbags, seatbelts were all public property free to everyone when they were mandated.


The notion that airbags and abs were"public
property" is based in the rather naive notion
that patenting a device that has a certain
function makes it impossible to patent
improvements in such a device. If the airbags
or antiskid brakes that were originally patented
were actually viable in the market they would
have gone into widespread service much sooner.
The fact is that neither went into widespread
service until patented technology was developed
that made them sufficiently inexpensive and
reliable to be viable in the market.


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On Sat, 11 Feb 2017 09:57:24 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Friday, February 10, 2017 at 9:55:24 PM UTC-6, wrote:

Driving has long been considered a privelege, not a right. Your
comparison doesn't hold water.


Do you consider using a table saw a right?


Certainly.

I'd classify it as a privilege too. There is some document written hundreds of years ago talking about the pursuit of happiness. Maybe table saws fall under that saying. Using table saws is a privilege. The government can mandate insurance and/or safety devices.



Maybe you have a table saw license?



Can anyone give an example of a law that required using a patented, licensed device?


This question still stands. Does anyone have an example of a government mandated device that was still under license and restricted? ABS, airbags, seatbelts were all public property free to everyone when they were mandated.


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On Sat, 11 Feb 2017 16:08:55 -0500, Bill
wrote:

Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 2/11/2017 2:47 PM, Bill wrote:
Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 2/11/2017 1:48 PM, Bill wrote:
Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 2/11/2017 12:57 PM, wrote:
On Friday, February 10, 2017 at 9:55:24 PM UTC-6,
wrote:

Driving has long been considered a privelege, not a right. Your
comparison doesn't hold water.


Do you consider using a table saw a right? I'd classify it as a
privilege too. There is some document written hundreds of years ago
talking about the pursuit of happiness. Maybe table saws fall under
that saying. Using table saws is a privilege. The government can
mandate insurance and/or safety devices.

I see it as a right.

Your insurance company could say they wouldn't accept liability
associated with it


So? They haven't. I do know our carrier for Workmen's Comp is asking
customers to buy a SawStop or equal but have not stopped insuring.
That is anecdotal as we don't have saws at work.

Still a right

Some say smoking is a "right". But if they charge $10 a pack, hasn't the
right been taken away from you?


No, just made more expensive. I gave it up 40+ years ago. You can
grow your own tobacco if you want.


If you don't agree that some would use taxation to take away you rights,
you may just not have seen high enough rates yet... Charge a "birth
tax" and see if you can't affect population growth.


No one said that taxes don't change behavior. Only lefties believe
that twaddle.

OTOH, death taxes haven't stopped people from dying. ;-)

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On Sat, 11 Feb 2017 12:22:43 -0500, "J. Clarke"
wrote:



Just google "abs problems".
I've had sensors fail. I've had reluctor wheels split and spin, split
and jam, and split and fall off. I've had them rust, and I've had them
fill with crud between the teeth - all rendering them inneffective.
I've had wires break and connections corrode.. I've had to replace
very expensive wheel bearing assemblies because the sensor built into
them failed.


What do you _do_ to the poor things? The only
ABS maintenance my Jeep has needed in 20 years
was having one cable replaced after it got
snagged on something or other and got physically
ripped off.


I FIX the damned things.

I've had the actuators fail in Myriad different modes, including a
piston unwinding right off the actuator screw, activators seizing, and
pump motors (in the activator) burning out. Activator failures are
very hard to diagnose - in many of the cases no warning lights came on
- the ABS just stopped working -often along with one half of the
braking system. On the one with the spun off system I could even bleed
the brakes, but could never get any pressure - to the point a leaky
line didn't even show up untill the activator was replaced..
I've had them so sensitive that replacing a damaged tire with a new
one after about 10,000km threw the system into a fit, and in much of
our winter driving conditions it is virtually impossible to stop with
quite a few vehicles with ABS (particularly with OEM wide tires
installed - (even all season or snow tires). All ABS does in those
situations is make sure you hit what you hit square on.

Benz basically put their patent "into the public domain" because they
knew there were so many ways to re-engineer the system to get around
their patent that they would spend millions ineffectively trying to
defend the patent - due in part to the prior state of the science
which rendered the patent almost undefendable. It had all been done,
in one way or another, by someone else before them.
Their releasing the patent just made it a lot simpler for everyone
else yto move ahead without worrying about patent infringement suites
like the old Selden Patent fiasco.



Uh, huh, right. So there was not one iotia of
altruism involved, in your opinion.


Absolutely convinced. Have you ever had to deal with Mercedes Benz???
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On 2/11/2017 8:48 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 11 Feb 2017 12:22:43 -0500, "J. Clarke"


Just google "abs problems".
I've had sensors fail. I've had reluctor wheels split and spin, split
and jam, and split and fall off. I've had them rust, and I've had them
fill with crud between the teeth - all rendering them inneffective.
I've had wires break and connections corrode.. I've had to replace
very expensive wheel bearing assemblies because the sensor built into
them failed.


What do you _do_ to the poor things? The only
ABS maintenance my Jeep has needed in 20 years
was having one cable replaced after it got
snagged on something or other and got physically
ripped off.


I FIX the damned things.


GM was never able to (permanently) fix the ABS on my 2001 GMC truck.
After numerous repairs and almost killing me several times on dry
pavement, I gave up and pulled the ABS fuse to prevent them going off
under normal breaking conditions.

All you need is to have the ABS go off on a dry day on concrete at 50
mph when attempting to make a routine stop behind a line of traffic.
This was apparently common with GM as two inspection garages told me it
was common and most just pull the fuse and disable the ABS. That
"fixed" it, so next, the brake lines rusted out.

When your braking ability suddenly is reduced to 50% for no apparent
reason other than the ABS deciding to activate for no reason, you learn
quickly just how much force your brake peddle can handle w/o
breaking/bending. Trust me, it is a lot.

GM recalled my truck for the tailgate straps that could (but didn't)
rust. No problem with ABS brake failure, or brake lines rusting out,
but sure wouldn't want tailgate to drop 6 inches. How is it I have
stainless steel exhaust but break lines on every GM product I've owned
have rusted out?

--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com
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On Sun, 12 Feb 2017 12:32:39 -0500, Jack wrote:

How is it I have
stainless steel exhaust but break lines on every GM product I've owned
have rusted out?


Protecting the margin and ignoring the prefered winter treatment on
asphalt and concrete.


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On 2/9/2017 8:11 PM, Larry Blanchard wrote:

C'mon people. Every time anyone even mentions Sawstop someone resurrects
the brouhaha we've had several times now. Whatever your opinion, you're
not changing others. Can't we just let it go? Get back to woodworking?
Even a political thread would be more interesting :-).


Why is it when a lot of people engage in a topic they find interesting,
someone attempts to impose their personal disinterest on the rest of the
group. Why can't you just skip the topics you are not interested in,
that's what most people would do?

You are free to open or participate in anything you are interested in,
although some would like you to do an intensive Google search to make
sure any issues have not already been covered somewhere on the net
before mentioning them here.

--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com
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In article , jbstein2
@comcast.net says...

On 2/11/2017 8:48 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 11 Feb 2017 12:22:43 -0500, "J. Clarke"


Just google "abs problems".
I've had sensors fail. I've had reluctor wheels split and spin, split
and jam, and split and fall off. I've had them rust, and I've had them
fill with crud between the teeth - all rendering them inneffective.
I've had wires break and connections corrode.. I've had to replace
very expensive wheel bearing assemblies because the sensor built into
them failed.

What do you _do_ to the poor things? The only
ABS maintenance my Jeep has needed in 20 years
was having one cable replaced after it got
snagged on something or other and got physically
ripped off.


I FIX the damned things.


GM was never able to (permanently) fix the ABS on my 2001 GMC truck.
After numerous repairs and almost killing me several times on dry
pavement, I gave up and pulled the ABS fuse to prevent them going off
under normal breaking conditions.

All you need is to have the ABS go off on a dry day on concrete at 50
mph when attempting to make a routine stop behind a line of traffic.
This was apparently common with GM as two inspection garages told me it
was common and most just pull the fuse and disable the ABS. That
"fixed" it, so next, the brake lines rusted out.

When your braking ability suddenly is reduced to 50% for no apparent
reason other than the ABS deciding to activate for no reason, you learn
quickly just how much force your brake peddle can handle w/o
breaking/bending. Trust me, it is a lot.

GM recalled my truck for the tailgate straps that could (but didn't)
rust. No problem with ABS brake failure, or brake lines rusting out,
but sure wouldn't want tailgate to drop 6 inches. How is it I have
stainless steel exhaust but break lines on every GM product I've owned
have rusted out?


Contrary to popular belief, stainless steel
corrodes under the right circumstances. If you
want it to last you have to keep it pretty
clean.

Also look into recall 05V379000.




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On Sunday, February 12, 2017 at 10:54:04 AM UTC-6, Leon wrote:

I mentioned the recyclable trash bags that the City of Houlston requires
for yard waste. they are patented and required by the city if you are
going to throw away yard waste.

While not a vehicle component it is an example of a product that has to
be used with the city's approval code, if you are going to throw yard
refuse away.


I guess the refuse bags sort of, kind of meet what I was asking. Although I doubt plastic bags are patented. They are specifically marked for Houston use. But anyone could make a similar bag out of petroleum and put the same markings on the bag and sell it for refuse use in Houston. And I suspect other landfills in your area or another county will accept yard waste without the specific Houston bag. I'm guessing the bags are required only if you want the city of Houston to pick up the waste from your curb. You are buying their service and are required to use their procedures. When I buy my cable TV I have to use their receiver box. With waste pickup its built into the water bill you get each month so not really a choice. In my city for picking up Christmas trees on the curb you have to buy a special ribbon and tie it onto the tree for the city workers to pick up the tree. Can't remember how we do yard waste. Might be the same as Houston.
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On Sun, 12 Feb 2017 12:43:20 -0500, Jack wrote:

C'mon people. Every time anyone even mentions Sawstop someone
resurrects the brouhaha we've had several times now. Whatever your
opinion, you're not changing others. Can't we just let it go? Get
back to woodworking? Even a political thread would be more interesting
:-).


Why is it when a lot of people engage in a topic they find interesting,
someone attempts to impose their personal disinterest on the rest of the
group. Why can't you just skip the topics you are not interested in,
that's what most people would do?


I found the topic quite interesting the first time it generated a massive
response. Even the second time gave me a few more snippets of info. But
now it just elicits an "Oh no, not again" response.

In other words, it's not that the topic isn't of interest, it's that its
been beaten to death already. Now if you're a newbie, I forgive you.
You haven't seen all the previous incarnations. But what I see is mostly
the same posters with the same opinions they've had since the beginning.

I wonder if some of them have any time left to do woodworking?


--
What if a much of a which of a wind gives the truth to summer's lie?
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On 2/12/2017 12:55 PM, Larry Blanchard wrote:
On Sun, 12 Feb 2017 12:43:20 -0500, Jack wrote:

C'mon people. Every time anyone even mentions Sawstop someone
resurrects the brouhaha we've had several times now. Whatever your
opinion, you're not changing others. Can't we just let it go? Get
back to woodworking? Even a political thread would be more interesting
:-).


Why is it when a lot of people engage in a topic they find interesting,
someone attempts to impose their personal disinterest on the rest of the
group. Why can't you just skip the topics you are not interested in,
that's what most people would do?


I found the topic quite interesting the first time it generated a massive
response. Even the second time gave me a few more snippets of info. But
now it just elicits an "Oh no, not again" response.

In other words, it's not that the topic isn't of interest, it's that its
been beaten to death already. Now if you're a newbie, I forgive you.
You haven't seen all the previous incarnations. But what I see is mostly
the same posters with the same opinions they've had since the beginning.


But Larry, the same could be said about, why is my finish doing such and
such. What brand such and such do you use? Most any question or topic
you see here has surly been covered a dozen times. If topics were not
repeated there would be no conversation.


I wonder if some of them have any time left to do woodworking?

Well, I tend to defend the SawStop regardless of how it got there and I
might be considered a newby, I have only been posting here for 18 years.
And I seem to be one of the very few that actually post pictures of my
projects on a regular basis. So you know that I am building. It just
might be the ones that are not building that do not have enough actual
experience to have a valid/relevant opinion.

Not jumping you!, I'm just saying in general. ;~)







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On Sunday, February 12, 2017 at 1:45:27 PM UTC-5, wrote:
....snip...

Can't remember how we do yard waste.


....snip...

I carry mine over to the woods across the street and toss it down the hill. By
the next season, it's all composted down to nothing.

35 years and have never bagged a leaf (and we have a lot of trees!) or
grass clipping. :-)

I give and I take. The woods are a great source of kindling for our fire
pit. There's some downed trees too, but the hill is way too steep to bring
anything up.
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On 2/12/2017 12:27 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
In article , jbstein2
@comcast.net says...

On 2/11/2017 8:48 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 11 Feb 2017 12:22:43 -0500, "J. Clarke"


Just google "abs problems".
I've had sensors fail. I've had reluctor wheels split and spin, split
and jam, and split and fall off. I've had them rust, and I've had them
fill with crud between the teeth - all rendering them inneffective.
I've had wires break and connections corrode.. I've had to replace
very expensive wheel bearing assemblies because the sensor built into
them failed.

What do you _do_ to the poor things? The only
ABS maintenance my Jeep has needed in 20 years
was having one cable replaced after it got
snagged on something or other and got physically
ripped off.

I FIX the damned things.


GM was never able to (permanently) fix the ABS on my 2001 GMC truck.
After numerous repairs and almost killing me several times on dry
pavement, I gave up and pulled the ABS fuse to prevent them going off
under normal breaking conditions.

All you need is to have the ABS go off on a dry day on concrete at 50
mph when attempting to make a routine stop behind a line of traffic.
This was apparently common with GM as two inspection garages told me it
was common and most just pull the fuse and disable the ABS. That
"fixed" it, so next, the brake lines rusted out.

When your braking ability suddenly is reduced to 50% for no apparent
reason other than the ABS deciding to activate for no reason, you learn
quickly just how much force your brake peddle can handle w/o
breaking/bending. Trust me, it is a lot.

GM recalled my truck for the tailgate straps that could (but didn't)
rust. No problem with ABS brake failure, or brake lines rusting out,
but sure wouldn't want tailgate to drop 6 inches. How is it I have
stainless steel exhaust but break lines on every GM product I've owned
have rusted out?


Contrary to popular belief, stainless steel
corrodes under the right circumstances. If you
want it to last you have to keep it pretty
clean.

Also look into recall 05V379000.




You are not being specific with the SS you mentioned but it will indeed
rust if a magnet will stick to it.
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On 2/12/2017 12:45 PM, wrote:
On Sunday, February 12, 2017 at 10:54:04 AM UTC-6, Leon wrote:

I mentioned the recyclable trash bags that the City of Houlston
requires for yard waste. they are patented and required by the
city if you are going to throw away yard waste.

While not a vehicle component it is an example of a product that
has to be used with the city's approval code, if you are going to
throw yard refuse away.


I guess the refuse bags sort of, kind of meet what I was asking.
Although I doubt plastic bags are patented. They are specifically
marked for Houston use. But anyone could make a similar bag out of
petroleum and put the same markings on the bag and sell it for refuse
use in Houston.


Well a reasonable person would assume that. IIRC the bags had a patent
pending number, had a seal, Approved by the city of Houston. There
were/are several other heavier/thicker mil recycleable refuse bags
available and much less expensive. But if you used those bags a warning
label was attached and the bag was not picked up.
The really unfortunate thing about the city of Housotn bags was that
they were so thin that the humidity/condensation would cause them to
begin melting from sitting out for just one one night and totally forget
it it rained. And of course those that failed because of the moisture
were left for the home owner to clean up.


And I suspect other landfills in your area or
another county will accept yard waste without the specific Houston
bag.


Absolutely, I live out side of the Houston city limits NOW and simply
dump the grass in a 45 gas 4 mil contractors bag and put it in with the
regular trash container.


I'm guessing the bags are required only if you want the city of
Houston to pick up the waste from your curb. You are buying their
service and are required to use their procedures.


The city does not care which bag you use for normal trash, they want
yard waste to be handled separately for recycling purposes. If you live
in the city limits you have no separate bill for trash pick up.
And no really had a problem with that except for the more expensive,
smaller, and thinner bags you had to use.



When I buy my
cable TV I have to use their receiver box.


And I can understand that, but you have a "reasonable" choice to use
cable or another service. No other trash pick up service is offered and
you get no credit for taking trash to the dump yourself.


With waste pickup its
built into the water bill you get each month so not really a choice.



Exactly


In my city for picking up Christmas trees on the curb you have to buy
a special ribbon and tie it onto the tree for the city workers to
pick up the tree.


And I would have no problem with that as it is only once a year and the
ribbon does not fail more than 50% of the time.

The yard waste bags, specific to Houston, was something that happen just
before the mayor left office and his fingers along with a cloud of
suspicion were associated.

There was no reason in the world that better bags could not be used.

To give a fair comparison, you mentioned cable. The cable company makes
you use their box, the only one they offer you is the lowest quality and
at a premium price. Your neighbor across the street gets the better
quality box at a reduced price.






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On Sun, 12 Feb 2017 13:27:08 -0500, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

In article , jbstein2
says...

On 2/11/2017 8:48 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 11 Feb 2017 12:22:43 -0500, "J. Clarke"


Just google "abs problems".
I've had sensors fail. I've had reluctor wheels split and spin, split
and jam, and split and fall off. I've had them rust, and I've had them
fill with crud between the teeth - all rendering them inneffective.
I've had wires break and connections corrode.. I've had to replace
very expensive wheel bearing assemblies because the sensor built into
them failed.

What do you _do_ to the poor things? The only
ABS maintenance my Jeep has needed in 20 years
was having one cable replaced after it got
snagged on something or other and got physically
ripped off.

I FIX the damned things.


GM was never able to (permanently) fix the ABS on my 2001 GMC truck.
After numerous repairs and almost killing me several times on dry
pavement, I gave up and pulled the ABS fuse to prevent them going off
under normal breaking conditions.

All you need is to have the ABS go off on a dry day on concrete at 50
mph when attempting to make a routine stop behind a line of traffic.
This was apparently common with GM as two inspection garages told me it
was common and most just pull the fuse and disable the ABS. That
"fixed" it, so next, the brake lines rusted out.

When your braking ability suddenly is reduced to 50% for no apparent
reason other than the ABS deciding to activate for no reason, you learn
quickly just how much force your brake peddle can handle w/o
breaking/bending. Trust me, it is a lot.

GM recalled my truck for the tailgate straps that could (but didn't)
rust. No problem with ABS brake failure, or brake lines rusting out,
but sure wouldn't want tailgate to drop 6 inches. How is it I have
stainless steel exhaust but break lines on every GM product I've owned
have rusted out?


Contrary to popular belief, stainless steel
corrodes under the right circumstances. If you
want it to last you have to keep it pretty
clean.

Also look into recall 05V379000.



The copper alloy lines used by many european manufacturers lastrs
virtually forever.(Copper-nickel alloy C70600,)
It is becoming more readily available in the North American Automotive
Aftermarket over the last few years.


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On Sun, 12 Feb 2017 10:45:25 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Sunday, February 12, 2017 at 10:54:04 AM UTC-6, Leon wrote:

I mentioned the recyclable trash bags that the City of Houlston requires
for yard waste. they are patented and required by the city if you are
going to throw away yard waste.

While not a vehicle component it is an example of a product that has to
be used with the city's approval code, if you are going to throw yard
refuse away.


I guess the refuse bags sort of, kind of meet what I was asking. Although I doubt plastic bags are patented. They are specifically marked for Houston use. But anyone could make a similar bag out of petroleum and put the same markings on the bag and sell it for refuse use in Houston. And I suspect other landfills in your area or another county will accept yard waste without the specific Houston bag. I'm guessing the bags are required only if you want the city of Houston to pick up the waste from your curb. You are buying their service and are required to use their procedures. When I buy my cable TV I have to use their receiver box. With waste pickup its built into the water bill you get each month so not really a choice. In my city for picking up Christmas trees on the curb you have to buy a special ribbon and tie it onto the tree for the city workers to pick up the tree. Can't remember how we do yard waste. Might be the same as Houston.

The bags are not made of petro-plastic. They are (at least the ones
we use here for composible refuse - food waste etc) made of corn or
soy and are fully biodegradable. And they ARE patented (AT least the
plastic they are made of is) and the few companies authorized to make
them DO have an "enforced monopoly"
For yard waste we have to use multi-layer paper bags which are widely
available from many suppliers and retailers.
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On 2/12/2017 2:13 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 12 Feb 2017 10:45:25 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Sunday, February 12, 2017 at 10:54:04 AM UTC-6, Leon wrote:

I mentioned the recyclable trash bags that the City of Houlston requires
for yard waste. they are patented and required by the city if you are
going to throw away yard waste.

While not a vehicle component it is an example of a product that has to
be used with the city's approval code, if you are going to throw yard
refuse away.


I guess the refuse bags sort of, kind of meet what I was asking. Although I doubt plastic bags are patented. They are specifically marked for Houston use. But anyone could make a similar bag out of petroleum and put the same markings on the bag and sell it for refuse use in Houston. And I suspect other landfills in your area or another county will accept yard waste without the specific Houston bag. I'm guessing the bags are required only if you want the city of Houston to pick up the waste from your curb. You are buying their service and are required to use their procedures. When I buy my cable TV I have to use their receiver box. With waste pickup its built into the water bill you get each month so not really a choice. In my city for picking up Christmas trees on the curb you have to buy a special ribbon and tie it onto the tree for the city workers to pick up the tree. Can't remember how we do yard waste. Might be the same as Houston.

The bags are not made of petro-plastic. They are (at least the ones
we use here for composible refuse - food waste etc) made of corn or
soy and are fully biodegradable. And they ARE patented (AT least the
plastic they are made of is) and the few companies authorized to make
them DO have an "enforced monopoly"
For yard waste we have to use multi-layer paper bags which are widely
available from many suppliers and retailers.



And doesn't seem only natural to use paper bags... follow the money to
see why patented city approved bags are the only ones you can use....
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On Sun, 12 Feb 2017 10:45:25 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Sunday, February 12, 2017 at 10:54:04 AM UTC-6, Leon wrote:

I mentioned the recyclable trash bags that the City of Houlston requires
for yard waste. they are patented and required by the city if you are
going to throw away yard waste.

While not a vehicle component it is an example of a product that has to
be used with the city's approval code, if you are going to throw yard
refuse away.


I guess the refuse bags sort of, kind of meet what I was asking. Although I doubt plastic bags are patented. They are specifically marked for Houston use. But anyone could make a similar bag out of petroleum and put the same markings on the bag and sell it for refuse use in Houston. And I suspect other landfills in your area or another county will accept yard waste without the specific Houston bag. I'm guessing the bags are required only if you want the city of Houston to pick up the waste from your curb. You are buying their service and are required to use their procedures. When I buy my cable TV I have to use their receiver box. With waste pickup its built into the water bill you get each month so not really a choice. In my city for picking up Christmas trees on the curb you have to buy a special ribbon and tie it onto the tree for the city workers to pick up the tree. Can't remember how we do yard waste. Might be the same as Houston.


Why would you believe that plastic bags couldn't be patented. I can
easily imagine that a patent would be granted on some greenie
bio-degradable, not-from-oil, bag or the process from which it's made.

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In article srqdndLNJIliLj3FnZ2dnUU7-
, lcb11211@swbelldotnet
says...

On 2/12/2017 12:27 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
In article , jbstein2
@comcast.net says...

On 2/11/2017 8:48 PM,
wrote:
On Sat, 11 Feb 2017 12:22:43 -0500, "J. Clarke"

Just google "abs problems".
I've had sensors fail. I've had reluctor wheels split and spin, split
and jam, and split and fall off. I've had them rust, and I've had them
fill with crud between the teeth - all rendering them inneffective.
I've had wires break and connections corrode.. I've had to replace
very expensive wheel bearing assemblies because the sensor built into
them failed.

What do you _do_ to the poor things? The only
ABS maintenance my Jeep has needed in 20 years
was having one cable replaced after it got
snagged on something or other and got physically
ripped off.

I FIX the damned things.

GM was never able to (permanently) fix the ABS on my 2001 GMC truck.
After numerous repairs and almost killing me several times on dry
pavement, I gave up and pulled the ABS fuse to prevent them going off
under normal breaking conditions.

All you need is to have the ABS go off on a dry day on concrete at 50
mph when attempting to make a routine stop behind a line of traffic.
This was apparently common with GM as two inspection garages told me it
was common and most just pull the fuse and disable the ABS. That
"fixed" it, so next, the brake lines rusted out.

When your braking ability suddenly is reduced to 50% for no apparent
reason other than the ABS deciding to activate for no reason, you learn
quickly just how much force your brake peddle can handle w/o
breaking/bending. Trust me, it is a lot.

GM recalled my truck for the tailgate straps that could (but didn't)
rust. No problem with ABS brake failure, or brake lines rusting out,
but sure wouldn't want tailgate to drop 6 inches. How is it I have
stainless steel exhaust but break lines on every GM product I've owned
have rusted out?


Contrary to popular belief, stainless steel
corrodes under the right circumstances. If you
want it to last you have to keep it pretty
clean.

Also look into recall 05V379000.




You are not being specific with the SS you mentioned but it will indeed
rust if a magnet will stick to it.


I'm not being specific because my statment is
true of _all_ stainless steel. Google "crevice
corrosion".

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On Sun, 12 Feb 2017 13:10:50 -0600, Leon wrote:

But Larry, the same could be said about, why is my finish doing such and
such. What brand such and such do you use? Most any question or topic
you see here has surly been covered a dozen times. If topics were not
repeated there would be no conversation.


Agreed. There'll always be a need to re-answer old questions as new
people show up. But few topics inspire passionate responses by the
hundreds every time :-).

--
What if a much of a which of a wind gives the truth to summer's lie?


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On 2/12/2017 6:52 PM, Larry Blanchard wrote:
On Sun, 12 Feb 2017 13:10:50 -0600, Leon wrote:

But Larry, the same could be said about, why is my finish doing such and
such. What brand such and such do you use? Most any question or topic
you see here has surly been covered a dozen times. If topics were not
repeated there would be no conversation.


Agreed. There'll always be a need to re-answer old questions as new
people show up. But few topics inspire passionate responses by the
hundreds every time :-).



Thanks for keeping us in line Larry. ;~)
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On 2/12/2017 1:27 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
GM recalled my truck for the tailgate straps that could (but didn't)
rust. No problem with ABS brake failure, or brake lines rusting out,
but sure wouldn't want tailgate to drop 6 inches. How is it I have
stainless steel exhaust but break lines on every GM product I've owned
have rusted out?


Contrary to popular belief, stainless steel
corrodes under the right circumstances. If you
want it to last you have to keep it pretty
clean.


Not true with my exhaust system. The stainless steel exhaust has never
once been cleaned and it is now 16+ years old, and in the rust belt.
Surely GM could have used the same stuff in the brake lines, which is
magnitudes more important than the exhaust system as far as safety goes.

Also look into recall 05V379000.


Thanks for that, I never received that recall notice, but did get the
notice on the tailgate straps. I looked it up and the recall is for
them to clean the sensors. That works temporarily until they get dirty
again. They also are to check the wheel speed sensor, which apparently
doesn't work on my truck, allowing the screwed up ABS system to fire off
at high speeds? Not sure why it wouldn't go off at high speeds if you
are sliding, but who knows?

Personally, after several heart stopping misfires on dry pavement, I
don't want ABS period if there is ever a chance they will fire off at
the wrong time. I think I'll just leave the fuse out rather than risk my
life with a defective system.

They sued VW billions for cheating on MPG crap, I think braking systems
are WAY more important and GM should be sued out of business for the
crappy ABS stuff and for sure the rusting brake line crap.

--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com
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In article ,
says...

On 2/12/2017 1:27 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
GM recalled my truck for the tailgate straps that could (but didn't)
rust. No problem with ABS brake failure, or brake lines rusting out,
but sure wouldn't want tailgate to drop 6 inches. How is it I have
stainless steel exhaust but break lines on every GM product I've owned
have rusted out?


Contrary to popular belief, stainless steel
corrodes under the right circumstances. If you
want it to last you have to keep it pretty
clean.


Not true with my exhaust system. The stainless steel exhaust has never
once been cleaned and it is now 16+ years old, and in the rust belt.
Surely GM could have used the same stuff in the brake lines, which is
magnitudes more important than the exhaust system as far as safety goes.


So you never go through a car wash?

And what pressure does your exhaust have to
withstand? What pressure do your brake lines
have to withstand?

Also look into recall 05V379000.


Thanks for that, I never received that recall notice, but did get the
notice on the tailgate straps. I looked it up and the recall is for
them to clean the sensors. That works temporarily until they get dirty
again. They also are to check the wheel speed sensor, which apparently
doesn't work on my truck, allowing the screwed up ABS system to fire off
at high speeds? Not sure why it wouldn't go off at high speeds if you
are sliding, but who knows?

Personally, after several heart stopping misfires on dry pavement, I
don't want ABS period if there is ever a chance they will fire off at
the wrong time. I think I'll just leave the fuse out rather than risk my
life with a defective system.

They sued VW billions for cheating on MPG crap, I think braking systems
are WAY more important and GM should be sued out of business for the
crappy ABS stuff and for sure the rusting brake line crap.


It doesn't matter what the brake lines are made
of, a 16 year old vehicle should have them
inspected and replaced as necessary.

You're expecting magic materials to take the
place of proper maintenance.
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On 2/12/2017 1:55 PM, Larry Blanchard wrote:
On Sun, 12 Feb 2017 12:43:20 -0500, Jack wrote:

C'mon people. Every time anyone even mentions Sawstop someone
resurrects the brouhaha we've had several times now. Whatever your
opinion, you're not changing others. Can't we just let it go? Get
back to woodworking? Even a political thread would be more interesting
:-).


Why is it when a lot of people engage in a topic they find interesting,
someone attempts to impose their personal disinterest on the rest of the
group. Why can't you just skip the topics you are not interested in,
that's what most people would do?


I found the topic quite interesting the first time it generated a massive
response. Even the second time gave me a few more snippets of info. But
now it just elicits an "Oh no, not again" response.


That's fine, you don't like it, skip it.

In other words, it's not that the topic isn't of interest, it's that its
been beaten to death already. Now if you're a newbie, I forgive you.


Should everyone but newbies ask forgiveness for participating in topics
Larry is no longer interested in?

You haven't seen all the previous incarnations. But what I see is mostly
the same posters with the same opinions they've had since the beginning.


If you were forced to read every message posted, I could see you trying
to get everyone to kowtow to your views, but of course you are free to
read what you want. If a topic is popular, naturally it will garner
plenty of response. If it's not popular, it will die a natural death,
with no need for Larry's help.

In the old (very, very old days, before the internet) People like you
would bitch because it wasted bandwidth. It was a lie then, because it
wasn't really about the bandwidth, it was a control freak issue, just as
it is today.

I wonder if some of them have any time left to do woodworking?


Yeah, right. You're worried that people participating in a topic you
find not interesting is keeping them from woodworking. That's a new
twist on the bandwidth crap. Just skip what you don't like and stop
trying to control everything.

--
Jack
If we are here to help others, then what exactly are the others here for?
http://jbstein.com
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On Mon, 13 Feb 2017 11:19:22 -0500, Jack wrote:

If a topic is popular, naturally it will garner
plenty of response.


Agreed. But on the Sawstop topic it's mostly the same 5-10 posters
who've been obsessing on the issue since the beginning. According to
Google, there have been 164 posts by only 17 authors. 'Nuff said?

It was a lie then, because it
wasn't really about the bandwidth, it was a control freak issue, just as
it is today.


My wife and friends got a good laugh out of that one! If there are any
control freaks here, it's the ones who decry or defend the ethics of the
Sawstop founder.

But you've convinced me that I'm ****ing into the wind. So I'll stop.

--
What if a much of a which of a wind gives the truth to summer's lie?


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On 2/13/2017 11:14 AM, J. Clarke wrote:


So you never go through a car wash?

And what pressure does your exhaust have to
withstand? What pressure do your brake lines
have to withstand?



It doesn't matter what the brake lines are made
of, a 16 year old vehicle should have them
inspected and replaced as necessary.

You're expecting magic materials to take the
place of proper maintenance.


I'd agree if the lines lasted that long. In 55 years of driving, I
never replaced corroded brake lines until rather recently. I drove
plenty of 10 to 15 year old crap cars but two newer cars (2001 and 2010)
needed brake lines after six years.

That said, the 2001 Buick was falling apart in six years and I ended up
giving it away. Last GM car for me.
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On Mon, 13 Feb 2017 17:07:28 -0500, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 2/13/2017 11:14 AM, J. Clarke wrote:


So you never go through a car wash?

And what pressure does your exhaust have to
withstand? What pressure do your brake lines
have to withstand?



It doesn't matter what the brake lines are made
of, a 16 year old vehicle should have them
inspected and replaced as necessary.

You're expecting magic materials to take the
place of proper maintenance.


I'd agree if the lines lasted that long. In 55 years of driving, I
never replaced corroded brake lines until rather recently. I drove
plenty of 10 to 15 year old crap cars but two newer cars (2001 and 2010)
needed brake lines after six years.

That said, the 2001 Buick was falling apart in six years and I ended up
giving it away. Last GM car for me.



My 1985 LeBaron rotted the lines - but at about the same point where
the body was too weak to put it on the hoist to repair it
The 1995 TransSport also split a line. I've seen a lot of late model
cars rust the line under the clip that holds it in place. (Plastic or
metal clip doesn't seem to make a difference) m 21 year old ford
Ranger still has all original lines but it has been under-oiled since
new and all the lines are well caked with a layer of grease and dirt.
(just watch - now one will let go - serve me right for opening my big
mouth - - - )
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On 2/13/2017 10:14 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
In article ,
says...

On 2/12/2017 1:27 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
GM recalled my truck for the tailgate straps that could (but didn't)
rust. No problem with ABS brake failure, or brake lines rusting out,
but sure wouldn't want tailgate to drop 6 inches. How is it I have
stainless steel exhaust but break lines on every GM product I've owned
have rusted out?


Contrary to popular belief, stainless steel
corrodes under the right circumstances. If you
want it to last you have to keep it pretty
clean.


Not true with my exhaust system. The stainless steel exhaust has never
once been cleaned and it is now 16+ years old, and in the rust belt.
Surely GM could have used the same stuff in the brake lines, which is
magnitudes more important than the exhaust system as far as safety goes.


So you never go through a car wash?


In the south a good many car washes do not hit the bottom of the
vehicle, only the wheels/wheel wells and the body.

But the old exhaust systems rusted from within. Lot's of nasty crap
coming from inside the exhaust including condensation that mixes to form
some concoction. Remember the sulfur smell that was very common with GM
vehicles equipped with catalytic converters in the 70's? These systems
rusted out quickly and then the stainless steel exhaust systems began
showing up and the problem has virtually gone away down here.
The old steel exhaust systems looked fine on the outside but with just a
little pressure with a pair of channel locks and you could easily crush
and put a hole in the pipe.





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On Monday, February 13, 2017 at 5:07:28 PM UTC-5, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 2/13/2017 11:14 AM, J. Clarke wrote:


So you never go through a car wash?

And what pressure does your exhaust have to
withstand? What pressure do your brake lines
have to withstand?



It doesn't matter what the brake lines are made
of, a 16 year old vehicle should have them
inspected and replaced as necessary.

You're expecting magic materials to take the
place of proper maintenance.


I'd agree if the lines lasted that long. In 55 years of driving, I
never replaced corroded brake lines until rather recently. I drove
plenty of 10 to 15 year old crap cars but two newer cars (2001 and 2010)
needed brake lines after six years.

That said, the 2001 Buick was falling apart in six years and I ended up
giving it away. Last GM car for me.


2002 Mitsubishi Galant. Brake lines rusted out, strut towers rusted out, body rusted out, water was leaking in from under the globe compartment. I sold it to my mechanic for the price of
scrap so he could teach his son how to fix cars.

2 weeks later he found out that the frame was rusted out so he rewrote the lesson plan.
He taught his son how to part out junk cars.
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In article PcqdnbxO4tImoD_FnZ2dnUU7-
, lcb11211@swbelldotnet
says...

On 2/13/2017 10:14 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
In article ,
says...

On 2/12/2017 1:27 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
GM recalled my truck for the tailgate straps that could (but didn't)
rust. No problem with ABS brake failure, or brake lines rusting out,
but sure wouldn't want tailgate to drop 6 inches. How is it I have
stainless steel exhaust but break lines on every GM product I've owned
have rusted out?

Contrary to popular belief, stainless steel
corrodes under the right circumstances. If you
want it to last you have to keep it pretty
clean.

Not true with my exhaust system. The stainless steel exhaust has never
once been cleaned and it is now 16+ years old, and in the rust belt.
Surely GM could have used the same stuff in the brake lines, which is
magnitudes more important than the exhaust system as far as safety goes.


So you never go through a car wash?


In the south a good many car washes do not hit the bottom of the
vehicle, only the wheels/wheel wells and the body.


In the south corrosion from road salt is not an
issue. Driving on the beach on the other hand .
.. .

Town I grew up in (north Florida)had a couple of
pulp mills. The pulp mills provided a
drivethrough rinsedown as a courtesy to
employees to clean the fly ash off their cars.
The rinsedown hit the underside. Everybody who
knew about it went over to the pulp mill and ran
through the rinsedown after driving on the beach
(it was a different world then--security was a
lot less stringent).



But the old exhaust systems rusted from within. Lot's of nasty crap
coming from inside the exhaust including condensation that mixes to form
some concoction. Remember the sulfur smell that was very common with GM
vehicles equipped with catalytic converters in the 70's? These systems
rusted out quickly and then the stainless steel exhaust systems began
showing up and the problem has virtually gone away down here.
The old steel exhaust systems looked fine on the outside but with just a
little pressure with a pair of channel locks and you could easily crush
and put a hole in the pipe.





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On Mon, 13 Feb 2017 16:44:57 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Monday, February 13, 2017 at 5:07:28 PM UTC-5, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 2/13/2017 11:14 AM, J. Clarke wrote:


So you never go through a car wash?

And what pressure does your exhaust have to
withstand? What pressure do your brake lines
have to withstand?



It doesn't matter what the brake lines are made
of, a 16 year old vehicle should have them
inspected and replaced as necessary.

You're expecting magic materials to take the
place of proper maintenance.


I'd agree if the lines lasted that long. In 55 years of driving, I
never replaced corroded brake lines until rather recently. I drove
plenty of 10 to 15 year old crap cars but two newer cars (2001 and 2010)
needed brake lines after six years.

That said, the 2001 Buick was falling apart in six years and I ended up
giving it away. Last GM car for me.


2002 Mitsubishi Galant. Brake lines rusted out, strut towers rusted out, body rusted out, water was leaking in from under the globe compartment. I sold it to my mechanic for the price of
scrap so he could teach his son how to fix cars.

2 weeks later he found out that the frame was rusted out so he rewrote the lesson plan.
He taught his son how to part out junk cars.

Mitsu****is and Mazdas still rust like it's 1984.
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On 2/13/2017 7:54 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
In article PcqdnbxO4tImoD_FnZ2dnUU7-
, lcb11211@swbelldotnet
says...

On 2/13/2017 10:14 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
In article ,
says...

On 2/12/2017 1:27 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
GM recalled my truck for the tailgate straps that could (but didn't)
rust. No problem with ABS brake failure, or brake lines rusting out,
but sure wouldn't want tailgate to drop 6 inches. How is it I have
stainless steel exhaust but break lines on every GM product I've owned
have rusted out?

Contrary to popular belief, stainless steel
corrodes under the right circumstances. If you
want it to last you have to keep it pretty
clean.

Not true with my exhaust system. The stainless steel exhaust has never
once been cleaned and it is now 16+ years old, and in the rust belt.
Surely GM could have used the same stuff in the brake lines, which is
magnitudes more important than the exhaust system as far as safety goes.

So you never go through a car wash?


In the south a good many car washes do not hit the bottom of the
vehicle, only the wheels/wheel wells and the body.


In the south corrosion from road salt is not an
issue. Driving on the beach on the other hand .
. .

Town I grew up in (north Florida)had a couple of
pulp mills. The pulp mills provided a
drivethrough rinsedown as a courtesy to
employees to clean the fly ash off their cars.
The rinsedown hit the underside. Everybody who
knew about it went over to the pulp mill and ran
through the rinsedown after driving on the beach
(it was a different world then--security was a
lot less stringent).


When I lived 3 miles from the coast we had a very long island, Padre
Island, that allowed vehicles on the beach. As you were leaving the
island there was a 4 way spray wash to go throuhg. And rust was an issue.

Houston, you don't see rust and I have never seen a spray wash any
where, even on Galveston island. I actually don't think they drive on
the beach and if so only a small area.




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"J. Clarke" wrote in
:

It doesn't matter what the brake lines are made
of, a 16 year old vehicle should have them
inspected and replaced as necessary.

You're expecting magic materials to take the
place of proper maintenance.


Nonsense. Metal brake lines are not a "maintenance" item, even on a 16-yo vehicle.

In more than forty years of doing the vast majority of my own maintenance and repair, I've
had to replace a corroded brake line exactly once: last March, on the Dodge truck which
my wife and I bought new shortly after we got married -- in 1985.


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Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet writes:
On 2/12/2017 12:45 PM, wrote:
On Sunday, February 12, 2017 at 10:54:04 AM UTC-6, Leon wrote:

I mentioned the recyclable trash bags that the City of Houlston
requires for yard waste. they are patented and required by the
city if you are going to throw away yard waste.

While not a vehicle component it is an example of a product that
has to be used with the city's approval code, if you are going to
throw yard refuse away.


I guess the refuse bags sort of, kind of meet what I was asking.
Although I doubt plastic bags are patented. They are specifically
marked for Houston use. But anyone could make a similar bag out of
petroleum and put the same markings on the bag and sell it for refuse
use in Houston.


Well a reasonable person would assume that.


Actually, I disagree. It's quite clear that a bag designed
for yard-waste would need to be made from a substance that
will quickly break down into environmentally benign
byproducts. That precludes petroleum-based bags.

IIRC the bags had a patent
pending number, had a seal, Approved by the city of Houston.


Yard waste, right? They compost it, so the bags must also
be compostable.

There
were/are several other heavier/thicker mil recycleable refuse bags
available and much less expensive. But if you used those bags a warning
label was attached and the bag was not picked up.


Of course, since they'd contaminate the compost.

The really unfortunate thing about the city of Housotn bags was that
they were so thin that the humidity/condensation would cause them to
begin melting from sitting out for just one one night and totally forget
it it rained.


The bags are designed to be biodegradable.

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On 2/13/2017 11:14 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
In article ,
says...


Not true with my exhaust system. The stainless steel exhaust has never
once been cleaned and it is now 16+ years old, and in the rust belt.
Surely GM could have used the same stuff in the brake lines, which is
magnitudes more important than the exhaust system as far as safety goes.


So you never go through a car wash?


Never, at least not with this truck.

And what pressure does your exhaust have to
withstand? What pressure do your brake lines
have to withstand?


The break lines have no problem withstanding pressure, until they RUST!
There is no excuse not to use break lines that don't rust. Exhaust
system were/are notorious rusters when made of steel. They rust from
the inside because of all the crap, including water expelled from the
engine, and laying in the pipes. Break lines don't have to battle all
that crap and could easily be made not to rust for the life of the car.

Between the brake lines rusting and the ABS braking system failing
repeatedly, GM should have been sued out of business. BTW, it only cost
$700 to have all the brake lines replaced on that truck, and that was a
few years ago, and at a garage, not a dealer. Would have been more at
the dealer.

My daughter and son both had Chevy Cavaliers in college and brake lines
rusted out on both cars. I've been driving for 56 years and never
replaced brake lines until this GM truck and the two Cavaliers my kids
had. That's 3 for 3... good job there GM. Our screwed up government
fines VW a $billion or more for fudging MPG on a few cars, but could
care less that the brakes on GM products SUCK big time.

My brother has a '95 Ford truck and brake lines are fine. GM is a no
sale for me and my family. My wife has a VS Passat, my daughter a Ford
and Son a VW Jetta I think it is. If I ever buy another truck, it will
be a Ford, or a Toyota, leaning towards the Toyota although the aluminum
Ford sounds rust free, something I would like a lot.

--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com
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