[Lieutenant Scott]

http://diydata.com/projects/centralh..._balancing.php

Why? Surely if your boiler is powerful enough you don't need to mess around like this. If your boiler can't heat all the radiators at once, your boiler is too small for the system. Even with all my radiators on full blast, the boiler doesn't run continuously.

--
http://petersparrots.com
http://petersphotos.com

Why does the law society prohibit sex between lawyers and their clients?
To prevent clients from being billed twice for essentially the same service.

[Alan[_10_]]

In message op.v5zn4fz1ytk5n5@i7-940, Lieutenant Scott
wrote
http://diydata.com/projects/centralh..._balancing.php

Why? Surely if your boiler is powerful enough you don't need to mess
around like this. If your boiler can't heat all the radiators at once,
your boiler is too small for the system. Even with all my radiators on
full blast, the boiler doesn't run continuously.



Water takes the path of least resistance. If you left all the valves to
your radiators fully open the pipe work to one radiator would provide
the path of least resistance and the majority of the water would only
flow through that one radiator. Some radiators would get so little water
flow they wouldn't heat up, irrespective of the boiler rating.

If you want to see this for yourself just open the lock-shield valves on
the radiators nearest to your boiler in your system and see if all the
radiators now get heated satisfactory.
--
Alan
news2009 {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

[Graham.[_2_]]

On 04/12/2011 23:42, Lieutenant Scott wrote:
http://diydata.com/projects/centralh..._balancing.php

Why? Surely if your boiler is powerful enough you don't need to mess
around like this. If your boiler can't heat all the radiators at once,
your boiler is too small for the system. Even with all my radiators on
full blast, the boiler doesn't run continuously.

Fine, but all other things being equal the rads further away from the
boiler are going to have less flow than the ones close to it.

My system has most of the rads piped in 10mm off manifolds, but a couple
of later additions are piped in 15mm off the flow & return so these are
turned down on the lockshields ft achieve the same differential.

I have one oversized radiator turned well down on its lockshield so my
idea of a balanced system is not strictly balanced.




--

Graham.

%Profound_observation%

[John Rumm]

On 04/12/2011 23:42, Lieutenant Scott wrote:

http://diydata.com/projects/centralh..._balancing.php

Why? Surely if your boiler is powerful enough you don't need to mess
around like this. If your boiler can't heat all the radiators at once,
your boiler is too small for the system. Even with all my radiators on
full blast, the boiler doesn't run continuously.

I think you may be missing the point... with an unbalanced system, some
rads will get blisteringly hot, some warm, and some may stay stone cold
regardless of the power of the boiler. If there is no water flowing
through the rad, it will not heat, no matter what the boiler does.

Slapdash plumbers may fit TRVs all round the place and let them do the
job - but even that is a bodge because it depends on some rooms reaching
target temperature and throttling back their rads to even begin to heat
other rooms. A well balanced system (with well chosen rad outputs) will
warm all the rooms at a similar rate.

There is another variations on the theme:

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?...ng_radiator s




--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

[Lieutenant Scott]

On Mon, 05 Dec 2011 00:05:55 -0000, Alan wrote:

In message op.v5zn4fz1ytk5n5@i7-940, Lieutenant Scott
wrote
http://diydata.com/projects/centralh..._balancing.php

Why? Surely if your boiler is powerful enough you don't need to mess
around like this. If your boiler can't heat all the radiators at once,
your boiler is too small for the system. Even with all my radiators on
full blast, the boiler doesn't run continuously.



Water takes the path of least resistance. If you left all the valves to
your radiators fully open the pipe work to one radiator would provide
the path of least resistance and the majority of the water would only
flow through that one radiator. Some radiators would get so little water
flow they wouldn't heat up, irrespective of the boiler rating.

If you want to see this for yourself just open the lock-shield valves on
the radiators nearest to your boiler in your system and see if all the
radiators now get heated satisfactory.

Well your system must be really crap then. All my valves are fully open, and all the radiators get hot. The radiators have pipes thinner than the pipe coming from the boiler (obviously). Just like the wire supplying all the lightbulbs in your house is thicker than the filament in one lightbulb!!!!

--
http://petersparrots.com
http://petersphotos.com

Never have I seen a word as accurate as politics.
Poly meaning many, and tic being a blood-sucking thing.

[brass monkey]

"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
On 04/12/2011 23:42, Lieutenant Scott wrote:

http://diydata.com/projects/centralh..._balancing.php

Why? Surely if your boiler is powerful enough you don't need to mess
around like this. If your boiler can't heat all the radiators at once,
your boiler is too small for the system. Even with all my radiators on
full blast, the boiler doesn't run continuously.

I think you may be missing the point... with an unbalanced system, some
rads will get blisteringly hot, some warm, and some may stay stone cold
regardless of the power of the boiler. If there is no water flowing
through the rad, it will not heat, no matter what the boiler does.

Slapdash plumbers may fit TRVs all round the place and let them do the
job - but even that is a bodge because it depends on some rooms reaching
target temperature and throttling back their rads to even begin to heat
other rooms. A well balanced system (with well chosen rad outputs) will
warm all the rooms at a similar rate.

John, I'm happy that you can afford to warm all rooms
I have 10 rads, only 5 are ever used due to the cost.
If I used all 10 I'd be on the high street with a begging bowl

[Lieutenant Scott]

On Mon, 05 Dec 2011 01:00:29 -0000, brass monkey wrote:


"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
On 04/12/2011 23:42, Lieutenant Scott wrote:

http://diydata.com/projects/centralh..._balancing.php

Why? Surely if your boiler is powerful enough you don't need to mess
around like this. If your boiler can't heat all the radiators at once,
your boiler is too small for the system. Even with all my radiators on
full blast, the boiler doesn't run continuously.

I think you may be missing the point... with an unbalanced system, some
rads will get blisteringly hot, some warm, and some may stay stone cold
regardless of the power of the boiler. If there is no water flowing
through the rad, it will not heat, no matter what the boiler does.

Slapdash plumbers may fit TRVs all round the place and let them do the
job - but even that is a bodge because it depends on some rooms reaching
target temperature and throttling back their rads to even begin to heat
other rooms. A well balanced system (with well chosen rad outputs) will
warm all the rooms at a similar rate.

John, I'm happy that you can afford to warm all rooms
I have 10 rads, only 5 are ever used due to the cost.
If I used all 10 I'd be on the high street with a begging bowl

Think yourself lucky, I have a radiator in the garage which uses a lot of gas!

--
http://petersparrots.com
http://petersphotos.com

If I were two faced, would I be wearing this one?

[dennis@home[_3_]]

"Lieutenant Scott" wrote in message
newsp.v5zrnxc8ytk5n5@i7-940...


Well your system must be really crap then. All my valves are fully open,
and all the radiators get hot. The radiators have pipes thinner than the
pipe coming from the boiler (obviously). Just like the wire supplying all
the lightbulbs in your house is thicker than the filament in one
lightbulb!!!!

You should do the lottery, having such a badly commissioned system that
works is pretty lucky.

Of course if you fit an oversized pump and run it on max most systems will
get hot.
But getting hot isn't enough with condensing boilers, the rads have to drop
the return temp to about 50C so the boilers condense while still providing
enough heat to do their job.
This can be somewhat difficult if a lot more water is going through one rad
than another.

[dennis@home[_3_]]

"brass monkey" wrote in message
eb.com...

John, I'm happy that you can afford to warm all rooms
I have 10 rads, only 5 are ever used due to the cost.
If I used all 10 I'd be on the high street with a begging bowl



Your wasting money then.
I only heat rooms when they are being used.
Each one is on a zone valve with a timer and a stat.
My gas is less than £20 pm and that includes hot water.

[Alan Braggins]

In article , Tim Streater wrote:
In article op.v5zn4fz1ytk5n5@i7-940, "Lieutenant Scott"
wrote:

http://diydata.com/projects/centralh..._balancing.php

Why? Surely if your boiler is powerful enough you don't need to mess around
like this. If your boiler can't heat all the radiators at once, your boiler
is too small for the system. Even with all my radiators on full blast, the
boiler doesn't run continuously.

Yes you do, Lootenant. Otherwise a rad nearest to the supply can
short-circuit all the others.

Then that room will warm up first, that TRV will close first, and
then the other radiators will warm up. If you want to get everything
to warm up evenly when the TRVs are open you need to balance them all
carefully, but it's not as essential to get it right as it was before
TRVs. (On the other hand if the radiator closest to the boiler is the
room you care least about, it would be silly to ignore it altogether.)

[Roger Chapman]

On 05/12/2011 09:35, Lieutenant Scott wrote:

Think yourself lucky, I have a radiator in the garage which uses a lot
of gas!

Well if you will keep parrots in your garage ...

If you need to keep that garage so much warmer than usual have you
considered insulating it to the same standard as your house?

Cars don't need heating but having somewhere dry to keep them probably
helps.

--
Roger Chapman

[thirty-six]

On Dec 4, 11:42*pm, "Lieutenant Scott" wrote:
http://diydata.com/projects/centralh...diator_balanci...

Why? *Surely if your boiler is powerful enough you don't need to mess around like this. *If your boiler can't heat all the radiators at once, your boiler is too small for the system. *Even with all my radiators on full blast, the boiler doesn't run continuously.

I suspect then you have a microbore (8mm, 10mm) sealed system radially
distributed by a central manifold. Must not be operated without
corrosion inhibitor else you will possibly not be able to flush the
crap out the radiators while in situ. No leaks are tolerable, and
less likely.

[Ghostrecon]

On Mon, 5 Dec 2011 06:20:06 -0800 (PST), thirty-six wrote:

No leaks are tolerable, and
less likely.
out of interest Why?

--
(º€¢.¸(¨*€¢.¸ ¸.€¢*¨)¸.€¢Âº)
.€¢Â°€¢. Nik .€¢Â°€¢.
(¸.€¢Âº(¸.€¢Â¨* *¨€¢.¸)º€¢.¸)

[Lieutenant Scott]

On Mon, 05 Dec 2011 12:20:47 -0000, Roger Chapman wrote:

On 05/12/2011 09:35, Lieutenant Scott wrote:

Think yourself lucky, I have a radiator in the garage which uses a lot
of gas!

Well if you will keep parrots in your garage ...

I'm spending months repairing the house due to keeping them in here before!

If you need to keep that garage so much warmer than usual have you
considered insulating it to the same standard as your house?

I've added insulation to the ceiling, walls, and doors. But adding a double brick wall would be going too far I think. It'll turn out cheaper than when it was heated with electrocity!

Cars don't need heating but having somewhere dry to keep them probably
helps.

How do you get a car in a garage? Garages automatically fill up with junk. I'm having to build a third shed now to keep stuff in.

--
http://petersparrots.com
http://petersphotos.com

Why isn't 11 pronounced onety one?

[Lieutenant Scott]

On Mon, 05 Dec 2011 14:20:06 -0000, thirty-six wrote:

On Dec 4, 11:42 pm, "Lieutenant Scott" wrote:
http://diydata.com/projects/centralh...diator_balanci...

Why? Surely if your boiler is powerful enough you don't need to mess around like this. If your boiler can't heat all the radiators at once, your boiler is too small for the system. Even with all my radiators on full blast, the boiler doesn't run continuously.

I suspect then you have a microbore (8mm, 10mm) sealed system radially
distributed by a central manifold.

Of course. Do you mean to tell me that the large bore systems don't have a correspondingly larger bore pipe from the boiler to feed them? What ****t designed that?!?

Must not be operated without
corrosion inhibitor else you will possibly not be able to flush the
crap out the radiators while in situ.

I've been told by a heating engineer that's a load of crap.

No leaks are tolerable, and less likely.

Not sure what you mean.

--
http://petersparrots.com
http://petersphotos.com

How do shepherds practice safe sex?
They paint an X on the back of the ones that kick!

[Lieutenant Scott]

On Mon, 05 Dec 2011 09:41:38 -0000, dennis@home wrote:



"Lieutenant Scott" wrote in message
newsp.v5zrnxc8ytk5n5@i7-940...


Well your system must be really crap then. All my valves are fully open,
and all the radiators get hot. The radiators have pipes thinner than the
pipe coming from the boiler (obviously). Just like the wire supplying all
the lightbulbs in your house is thicker than the filament in one
lightbulb!!!!

You should do the lottery, having such a badly commissioned system that
works is pretty lucky.

It was fitted by the Corgi certified fitter that used to live here. It is a brilliant system and I have never even serviced it in 11 years!

Of course if you fit an oversized pump and run it on max most systems will
get hot.

And so you should. The pump should be able to push water through all the radiators at once.

But getting hot isn't enough with condensing boilers, the rads have to drop
the return temp to about 50C so the boilers condense while still providing
enough heat to do their job.
This can be somewhat difficult if a lot more water is going through one rad
than another.

Then don't use a condensing boiler. I have what he called a balanced flu.

--
http://petersparrots.com
http://petersphotos.com

Sky have just won the rights to screen the first World Origami Championships from Tokyo.
Unfortunately it's only available on Paper View.

[Lieutenant Scott]

On Mon, 05 Dec 2011 10:08:38 -0000, Alan Braggins wrote:

In article , Tim Streater wrote:
In article op.v5zn4fz1ytk5n5@i7-940, "Lieutenant Scott"
wrote:

http://diydata.com/projects/centralh..._balancing.php

Why? Surely if your boiler is powerful enough you don't need to mess around
like this. If your boiler can't heat all the radiators at once, your boiler
is too small for the system. Even with all my radiators on full blast, the
boiler doesn't run continuously.

Yes you do, Lootenant. Otherwise a rad nearest to the supply can
short-circuit all the others.

Then that room will warm up first, that TRV will close first, and
then the other radiators will warm up. If you want to get everything
to warm up evenly when the TRVs are open you need to balance them all
carefully, but it's not as essential to get it right as it was before
TRVs. (On the other hand if the radiator closest to the boiler is the
room you care least about, it would be silly to ignore it altogether.)

Unless you are in the habit of letting your house cool right down, I can't see why this is a problem. Perhaps when you come home from holidays the house will warm up unevenly, but just open some doors!

--
http://petersparrots.com
http://petersphotos.com

When you own Llamas... spit happens

[gazz]

"Lieutenant Scott" wrote

I have what he called a balanced flu.

that's just a nicer way for him to tell you your talking out of your arse.

[Roger Chapman]

On 05/12/2011 15:07, Lieutenant Scott wrote:


Cars don't need heating but having somewhere dry to keep them probably
helps.

How do you get a car in a garage? Garages automatically fill up with
junk. I'm having to build a third shed now to keep stuff in.

You stuff your house with junk and also have a bigger garage. It also
helps if you move frequently. If you stay put as I have for the last 33
years it helps to have a barn instead of a garage. (And there is
precious little spare space in my barn even though it is a two story
affair with more floor space than my house).

--
Roger Chapman

[Roger Chapman]

On 05/12/2011 15:11, Lieutenant Scott wrote:

Of course. Do you mean to tell me that the large bore systems don't
have a correspondingly larger bore pipe from the boiler to feed them?
What ****t designed that?!?

You don't get large bore domestic heating systems these days. 1", 3/4"
and 1/2" pipes were traditionally known as small bore which is why the
smaller stuff got labelled micro-bore.
--
Roger Chapman

[thirty-six]

On Dec 5, 3:11*pm, "Lieutenant Scott" wrote:
On Mon, 05 Dec 2011 14:20:06 -0000, thirty-six wrote:
On Dec 4, 11:42 pm, "Lieutenant Scott" wrote:
http://diydata.com/projects/centralh...diator_balanci....

Why? *Surely if your boiler is powerful enough you don't need to mess around like this. *If your boiler can't heat all the radiators at once, your boiler is too small for the system. *Even with all my radiators on full blast, the boiler doesn't run continuously.

I suspect then you have a microbore (8mm, 10mm) sealed system radially
distributed by a central manifold.

Of course. *Do you mean to tell me that the large bore systems don't have a correspondingly larger bore pipe from the boiler to feed them? *What ****t designed that?!?

Do you know anyone using a large bore system in a small house? Do you
alternatively mean minibore (22&15mm)? I would rather you get your
terminology in order before hurling insults.


Must not be operated without
corrosion inhibitor else you will possibly not be able to flush the
crap out the radiators while in situ.

I've been told by a heating engineer that's a load of crap.

Ho-ho.

No leaks are tolerable, and less likely.

Not sure what you mean.

I said LEAKS not LEEKS.

[Roger Chapman]

On 05/12/2011 15:14, Lieutenant Scott wrote:

But getting hot isn't enough with condensing boilers, the rads have to
drop
the return temp to about 50C so the boilers condense while still
providing
enough heat to do their job.
This can be somewhat difficult if a lot more water is going through
one rad
than another.

Then don't use a condensing boiler.

These days you don't get much choice. Except for certain very limited
exceptions condensing boilers are mandatory both as new installations
and as replacements.

I have what he called a balanced flu.

So do most people these days. You could well have a condensing boiler
without knowing it.

I think you need to read up on the basics of central heating design
which should include inter alia boiler types, heat output, circuit
design, pipe sizing, etc.

Then there is the more sophisticated stuff - programmable thermostats,
zoning, weather compensation, heat recovery ...

--
Roger Chapman

[ARWadsworth]

Lieutenant Scott wrote:

Unless you are in the habit of letting your house cool right down, I
can't see why this is a problem. Perhaps when you come home from
holidays the house will warm up unevenly, but just open some doors!

I did that and the next door neighbour had to tell me to keep the front door
closed as heat was escaping from the house.

--
Adam

* Sometimes I like to lay in my neighbours garden and pretend to be a
carrot *

[Lieutenant Scott]

On Mon, 05 Dec 2011 15:17:46 -0000, Gazz wrote:



"Lieutenant Scott" wrote

I have what he called a balanced flu.

that's just a nicer way for him to tell you your talking out of your arse.

I wasn't talking at all. He was telling me what was ion the house when I was wishing to purchase it.

--
http://petersparrots.com
http://petersphotos.com

Rule 1: If it's working, don't **** about with it.
Rule 2: If it's not working, don't **** it.

[Lieutenant Scott]

On Mon, 05 Dec 2011 15:36:07 -0000, Roger Chapman wrote:

On 05/12/2011 15:07, Lieutenant Scott wrote:


Cars don't need heating but having somewhere dry to keep them probably
helps.

How do you get a car in a garage? Garages automatically fill up with
junk. I'm having to build a third shed now to keep stuff in.

You stuff your house with junk and also have a bigger garage. It also
helps if you move frequently. If you stay put as I have for the last 33
years it helps to have a barn instead of a garage. (And there is
precious little spare space in my barn even though it is a two story
affair with more floor space than my house).

I don't understand how I can put 100 things on ebay and a further 50 on freecycle, and have less space than I started with.

There's a Murphy's Law in here somewhere.

--
http://petersparrots.com
http://petersphotos.com

While taking down the vitals for a soon-to-be mom, I asked how much she weighed.
"I really don't know," she said.
"Well, more or less," I prompted.
"More, I guess," she answered sadly.

[Lieutenant Scott]

On Mon, 05 Dec 2011 15:40:54 -0000, Roger Chapman wrote:

On 05/12/2011 15:11, Lieutenant Scott wrote:

Of course. Do you mean to tell me that the large bore systems don't
have a correspondingly larger bore pipe from the boiler to feed them?
What ****t designed that?!?

You don't get large bore domestic heating systems these days. 1", 3/4"
and 1/2" pipes were traditionally known as small bore which is why the
smaller stuff got labelled micro-bore.

Well what I meant was if you have 15mm pipe for the radiators, you should have much more than that from the boiler.

I have: 22mm from boiler and pump,
Branches to 15mm for hot water, 22mm for house radiators (which splits into 8mm for each radiator), and 10mm for garage.

I can turn any or all of the above on and they all get piping hot.

When I say "turn on", it's all automatic - I just set the temperature I want the hot water at, the temperature I want the house at, and the temperature I want the garage at, and leave the system on all the time, all year round. If nothing needs heat, the pump and boiler shut off by themselves. I do have thermostatic radiator valves should I wish some rooms to be cooler, but I don't use them.

Boiler hasn't been serviced since I moved in in Feb 2000. Baxi rule!

--
http://petersparrots.com
http://petersphotos.com

Women like silent men, they think they're listening.

[Lieutenant Scott]

On Mon, 05 Dec 2011 15:43:30 -0000, thirty-six wrote:

On Dec 5, 3:11 pm, "Lieutenant Scott" wrote:
On Mon, 05 Dec 2011 14:20:06 -0000, thirty-six wrote:
On Dec 4, 11:42 pm, "Lieutenant Scott" wrote:
http://diydata.com/projects/centralh...diator_balanci...

Why? Surely if your boiler is powerful enough you don't need to mess around like this. If your boiler can't heat all the radiators at once, your boiler is too small for the system. Even with all my radiators on full blast, the boiler doesn't run continuously.

I suspect then you have a microbore (8mm, 10mm) sealed system radially
distributed by a central manifold.

Of course. Do you mean to tell me that the large bore systems don't have a correspondingly larger bore pipe from the boiler to feed them? What ****t designed that?!?

Do you know anyone using a large bore system in a small house? Do you
alternatively mean minibore (22&15mm)? I would rather you get your
terminology in order before hurling insults.

Large in comparison to microbore ffs. You know perfectly well what I meant. So, answer the question, do you have a larger diameter pipe from the boiler than to each individual radiator? If not no wonder you need to do the silly balancing act.

Must not be operated without
corrosion inhibitor else you will possibly not be able to flush the
crap out the radiators while in situ.

I've been told by a heating engineer that's a load of crap.

Ho-ho.

So why have I never had a problem? I drained the system years ago and never put inhibitor back in. Are you cleverer than a Corgi registered professional?

No leaks are tolerable, and less likely.

Not sure what you mean.

I said LEAKS not LEEKS.

I know. So what did you mean?

--
http://petersparrots.com
http://petersphotos.com

Just remember...if the world didn't suck, we'd all fall off.

[Lieutenant Scott]

On Mon, 05 Dec 2011 15:52:00 -0000, Roger Chapman wrote:

On 05/12/2011 15:14, Lieutenant Scott wrote:

But getting hot isn't enough with condensing boilers, the rads have to
drop
the return temp to about 50C so the boilers condense while still
providing
enough heat to do their job.
This can be somewhat difficult if a lot more water is going through
one rad
than another.

Then don't use a condensing boiler.

These days you don't get much choice.

Worst case scenario it doesn't condense, so you get less efficiency?

And why does all the water going to one radiator cause a problem? The water would still cool by 15C or whatever it is. I assume a condensing boiler can handle only one radiator being switched on, which would have the same effect.

Except for certain very limited
exceptions condensing boilers are mandatory both as new installations
and as replacements.

Mandatory energy savings - whatever next. It's MY money.

I have what he called a balanced flu.

So do most people these days. You could well have a condensing boiler
without knowing it.

I think you need to read up on the basics of central heating design
which should include inter alia boiler types, heat output, circuit
design, pipe sizing, etc.

Then there is the more sophisticated stuff - programmable thermostats,
zoning, weather compensation, heat recovery ...

Ever heard of the acronym KISS?

--
http://petersparrots.com
http://petersphotos.com

Wife to husband: "What's your excuse for coming home at this time of night?"
Husband to wife: "Golfing with friends, my dear."
Wife to husband: "What? At 2A.M.?!"
Husband to wife: "Yes, We used night clubs."

[Lieutenant Scott]

On Mon, 05 Dec 2011 18:10:24 -0000, ARWadsworth wrote:

Lieutenant Scott wrote:

Unless you are in the habit of letting your house cool right down, I
can't see why this is a problem. Perhaps when you come home from
holidays the house will warm up unevenly, but just open some doors!

I did that and the next door neighbour had to tell me to keep the front door
closed as heat was escaping from the house.

Your neighbour is very intelligent, you should listen to his advice.

--
http://petersparrots.com
http://petersphotos.com

"I am returning this otherwise good typing paper to you because someone has printed gibberish all over it and put your name at the top." -- English Professor, Ohio University

[Roger Chapman]

On 05/12/2011 21:50, Lieutenant Scott wrote:

But getting hot isn't enough with condensing boilers, the rads have to
drop
the return temp to about 50C so the boilers condense while still
providing
enough heat to do their job.
This can be somewhat difficult if a lot more water is going through
one rad
than another.

Then don't use a condensing boiler.

These days you don't get much choice.

Worst case scenario it doesn't condense, so you get less efficiency?

For it to condense first get a condensing boiler.

With a natural gas fired boiler the difference can be considerable - up
to 10%.

And why does all the water going to one radiator cause a problem? The
water would still cool by 15C or whatever it is. I assume a condensing
boiler can handle only one radiator being switched on, which would have
the same effect.

You seem to be making a lot of very strange assumptions. The heat loss
in any radiator is a function of the volume of water flowing through the
temperature drop across the radiator. The bigger the radiator the more
scope there is to give out heat and the narrower the pipework the less
water you can force through it.

If you actually want to get a 15C drop across the radiator you have to
slow down the throughput and sacrifice some of the heat output you would
have got had you the means to push water through the radiator so fast
you only get a very small temperature drop.

With condensing boilers you need bigger radiators so you can get the
return temperature to below IIRC 53C to get the condensing process
started but you need the return temperature a good way below that in
order to get a 10% advantage over a non condensing boiler.

Except for certain very limited
exceptions condensing boilers are mandatory both as new installations
and as replacements.

Mandatory energy savings - whatever next. It's MY money.

You want to replace your window you have to have double glazing using
special (ie) expensive glass. You want to improve the insulation of your
has you can't take any half measures, you must do it to new build
standards. Big brother is alive and well and living in your wallet.

I have what he called a balanced flu.

So do most people these days. You could well have a condensing boiler
without knowing it.

I think you need to read up on the basics of central heating design
which should include inter alia boiler types, heat output, circuit
design, pipe sizing, etc.

Then there is the more sophisticated stuff - programmable thermostats,
zoning, weather compensation, heat recovery ...

Ever heard of the acronym KISS?

Well if you want to be considered stupid I will oblige in future and not
bother you with inconvenient facts.

--
Roger Chapman

[Lieutenant Scott]

On Mon, 05 Dec 2011 22:11:38 -0000, Tim Streater wrote:

In article op.v51dmvlfytk5n5@i7-940, "Lieutenant Scott"
wrote:

On Mon, 05 Dec 2011 15:52:00 -0000, Roger Chapman
wrote:

On 05/12/2011 15:14, Lieutenant Scott wrote:

But getting hot isn't enough with condensing boilers, the rads have to
drop
the return temp to about 50C so the boilers condense while still
providing
enough heat to do their job.
This can be somewhat difficult if a lot more water is going through
one rad
than another.

Then don't use a condensing boiler.

These days you don't get much choice.

Worst case scenario it doesn't condense, so you get less efficiency?

And why does all the water going to one radiator cause a problem?

Cos all the others are cold, perhaps?

A problem for the condensing boiler I meant.

--
http://petersparrots.com
http://petersphotos.com

__________________
/\ ______________ \
/::\ \ZZZZZZZZZZZZ/\ \
/:/\.\ \ /:/\:\ \
/:/Z/\:\ \ /:/Z/\:\ \
/:/Z/__\;\_\____/:/Z/ \:\ \
/:/Z/____________\/Z/ \:\ \
\:\ \ZZZZZZZZZZZZ/\ \ \:\ \
\:\ \ \:\ \ \:\ \ \:\ \
\:\ \ \:\ \_\:\ \_____\;\ \
\:\ \ \:\___\ \ \_________\
\:\ \ /:/ZZZZ\:\ \ZZZZZZZZ/
\:\ \ /:/Z/ \:\ \ /:/Z/
\:\ \/:/Z/ \:\ \/:/Z/
\:\/:/Z/________\;\/:/Z/
\::/Z/_______itz__\/Z/
\/ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ/

[Lieutenant Scott]

On Mon, 05 Dec 2011 22:18:25 -0000, Roger Chapman wrote:

On 05/12/2011 21:50, Lieutenant Scott wrote:

But getting hot isn't enough with condensing boilers, the rads have to
drop
the return temp to about 50C so the boilers condense while still
providing
enough heat to do their job.
This can be somewhat difficult if a lot more water is going through
one rad
than another.

Then don't use a condensing boiler.

These days you don't get much choice.

Worst case scenario it doesn't condense, so you get less efficiency?

For it to condense first get a condensing boiler.

I don't think I have one, there is no fan or condensate piping. It was fitted in about 1995.

With a natural gas fired boiler the difference can be considerable - up
to 10%.

I don't call 10% considerable. It's not even enough to make a pig stop you for speeding.

And why does all the water going to one radiator cause a problem? The
water would still cool by 15C or whatever it is. I assume a condensing
boiler can handle only one radiator being switched on, which would have
the same effect.

You seem to be making a lot of very strange assumptions. The heat loss
in any radiator is a function of the volume of water flowing through the
temperature drop across the radiator. The bigger the radiator the more
scope there is to give out heat and the narrower the pipework the less
water you can force through it.

If you actually want to get a 15C drop across the radiator you have to
slow down the throughput and sacrifice some of the heat output you would
have got had you the means to push water through the radiator so fast
you only get a very small temperature drop.

With condensing boilers you need bigger radiators so you can get the
return temperature to below IIRC 53C to get the condensing process
started but you need the return temperature a good way below that in
order to get a 10% advantage over a non condensing boiler.

Sounds like a lot of hassle, one of these things where people spend 1000s of pounds to save a few pennies. Kinda like solar panels.

Except for certain very limited
exceptions condensing boilers are mandatory both as new installations
and as replacements.

Mandatory energy savings - whatever next. It's MY money.

You want to replace your window you have to have double glazing using
special (ie) expensive glass.

Do I hell. I replace it with what *I* want.

You want to improve the insulation of your
has you can't take any half measures, you must do it to new build
standards. Big brother is alive and well and living in your wallet.

Really? Does he watch what I put in the loft?

I have what he called a balanced flu.

So do most people these days. You could well have a condensing boiler
without knowing it.

I think you need to read up on the basics of central heating design
which should include inter alia boiler types, heat output, circuit
design, pipe sizing, etc.

Then there is the more sophisticated stuff - programmable thermostats,
zoning, weather compensation, heat recovery ...

Ever heard of the acronym KISS?

Well if you want to be considered stupid I will oblige in future and not
bother you with inconvenient facts.

I was trying to tell you that overcomplicating thongs is pointless.

--
http://petersparrots.com
http://petersphotos.com

When a man steals your wife, there is no better revenge than to let him keep her.

[Graham.[_2_]]

On 05/12/2011 15:07, Lieutenant Scott wrote:
On Mon, 05 Dec 2011 12:20:47 -0000, Roger Chapman
wrote:

On 05/12/2011 09:35, Lieutenant Scott wrote:

Think yourself lucky, I have a radiator in the garage which uses a lot
of gas!

Well if you will keep parrots in your garage ...

I'm spending months repairing the house due to keeping them in here before!

If you need to keep that garage so much warmer than usual have you
considered insulating it to the same standard as your house?

I've added insulation to the ceiling, walls, and doors. But adding a
double brick wall would be going too far I think. It'll turn out cheaper
than when it was heated with electrocity!

Cars don't need heating but having somewhere dry to keep them probably
helps.

How do you get a car in a garage? Garages automatically fill up with
junk. I'm having to build a third shed now to keep stuff in.


It's very reassuring to learn it's not just me.

--

Graham.

%Profound_observation%

[Lieutenant Scott]

On Tue, 06 Dec 2011 01:12:12 -0000, Graham. wrote:

On 05/12/2011 15:07, Lieutenant Scott wrote:
On Mon, 05 Dec 2011 12:20:47 -0000, Roger Chapman
wrote:

On 05/12/2011 09:35, Lieutenant Scott wrote:

Think yourself lucky, I have a radiator in the garage which uses a lot
of gas!

Well if you will keep parrots in your garage ...

I'm spending months repairing the house due to keeping them in here before!

If you need to keep that garage so much warmer than usual have you
considered insulating it to the same standard as your house?

I've added insulation to the ceiling, walls, and doors. But adding a
double brick wall would be going too far I think. It'll turn out cheaper
than when it was heated with electrocity!

Cars don't need heating but having somewhere dry to keep them probably
helps.

How do you get a car in a garage? Garages automatically fill up with
junk. I'm having to build a third shed now to keep stuff in.


It's very reassuring to learn it's not just me.

Building a shed using breezeblock instead of wood. Am I mad or sensible?

--
http://petersparrots.com
http://petersphotos.com

Whatever hits the fan will not be evenly distributed.

[Lieutenant Scott]

On Mon, 05 Dec 2011 23:31:56 -0000, Tim Streater wrote:

In article op.v51frpnhytk5n5@i7-940, "Lieutenant Scott"
wrote:

On Mon, 05 Dec 2011 22:18:25 -0000, Roger Chapman
wrote:

You want to replace your window you have to have double glazing using
special (ie) expensive glass.

Do I hell. I replace it with what *I* want.

No problem until you come to sell your house. Then the prospective buyer
wants to know what changes you've made - and then wants to see the
accompanying paperwork. If the windows have been done and there's no
FENSA signoff to show its to standard (if you get a builder to do it) or
if you've got nothing from Building Control (if you do it yourself),
then the buyer will evaporate.

Why would they know the window has been replaced?

I actually bought this house in 2000 with single glazing. What if I had never installed double? Are you saying I couldn't now sell it?

--
http://petersparrots.com
http://petersphotos.com

Top Tip. If someone shoves your feet in a fire, quickly put your head in a bucket of iced water. On average, you will be pretty comfortable.

[thirty-six]

On Dec 5, 9:46*pm, "Lieutenant Scott" wrote:
On Mon, 05 Dec 2011 15:43:30 -0000, thirty-six wrote:
On Dec 5, 3:11 pm, "Lieutenant Scott" wrote:
On Mon, 05 Dec 2011 14:20:06 -0000, thirty-six wrote:
On Dec 4, 11:42 pm, "Lieutenant Scott" wrote:
http://diydata.com/projects/centralh...diator_balanci...

Why? *Surely if your boiler is powerful enough you don't need to mess around like this. *If your boiler can't heat all the radiators at once, your boiler is too small for the system. *Even with all my radiators on full blast, the boiler doesn't run continuously.

I suspect then you have a microbore (8mm, 10mm) sealed system radially
distributed by a central manifold.

Of course. *Do you mean to tell me that the large bore systems don't have a correspondingly larger bore pipe from the boiler to feed them? *What ****t designed that?!?

Do you know anyone using a large bore system in a small house? *Do you
alternatively mean minibore (22&15mm)? *I would rather you get your
terminology in order before hurling insults.

Large in comparison to microbore ffs. *You know perfectly well what I meant. *So, answer the question, do you have a larger diameter pipe from the boiler than to each individual radiator? *If not no wonder you need to do the silly balancing act.

Rad feeds from the main flow and return are of different lengths,
available pressure at each rad varies so balncing is tequired to get
the furthest rad to spec. on heat output when all user controls are
fully open.

Must not be operated without
corrosion inhibitor else you will possibly not be able to flush the
crap out the radiators while in situ.

I've been told by a heating engineer that's a load of crap.

Ho-ho.

So why have I never had a problem?

If you don't know, you've been lucky. Your water was neutral with
minimal mineral content the autovent has worked without fault and the
system has remained tight.

*I drained the system years ago and never put inhibitor back in. *Are you cleverer than a Corgi registered professional?

No leaks are tolerable, and less likely.

Not sure what you mean.

I said LEAKS not LEEKS.

I know. *So what did you mean?

LEAKS !

[Dave Liquorice[_3_]]

On Tue, 06 Dec 2011 10:08:40 +0000, Tim Streater wrote:

No. I'm saying that any competent solicitor, and their client, would
want to be assured that any changes made since it was built comply with
the regs in force at the time.

They will ask the questions but if you don't actually lie in your
answers it won't stop a serious buyer. They might ask their surveyor
to pay attention to the windows or what ever but the abscence of a
bit of paper is niether here nor there to most people.

So if you've (say) changed a window in the last 10 years they'd expect
it to be DG. Of course, you could "forget" to mention that, but if the
purchaser then got dinged themselves later, they could sue you.

Highly unlikely once contracts have been exchanged. Buying a house is
very much "buyer beware". So provided you answer any questions
honestly (maybe being a bit "economic with the truth" and to the best
of your knowledge (you are not a window/building regs expert...) the
buyer doesn't really have a case.

--
Cheers
Dave.

[John Rumm]

On 05/12/2011 21:50, Lieutenant Scott wrote:
On Mon, 05 Dec 2011 15:52:00 -0000, Roger Chapman
wrote:

On 05/12/2011 15:14, Lieutenant Scott wrote:

But getting hot isn't enough with condensing boilers, the rads have to
drop
the return temp to about 50C so the boilers condense while still
providing
enough heat to do their job.
This can be somewhat difficult if a lot more water is going through
one rad
than another.

Then don't use a condensing boiler.

These days you don't get much choice.

Worst case scenario it doesn't condense, so you get less efficiency?

No, the condensing boilers have larger more effective heat exchangers,
so even if not running at optimum temperatures will still out perform a
normal one. There is a rise in the rate of improvement of efficiency
when the return temperature drops below about 54 degrees.

And why does all the water going to one radiator cause a problem? The
water would still cool by 15C or whatever it is. I assume a condensing
boiler can handle only one radiator being switched on, which would have
the same effect.

It would be a problem if you wanted other rads to get hot and they were
being starved of flow.

Modern boilers will load sense and modulate - so as the differential
between flow and return falls (which in a correctly working and balanced
system indicates that the house temperature is rising), the boiler will
reduce its output to better match the rate of heat loss into the house.

Except for certain very limited
exceptions condensing boilers are mandatory both as new installations
and as replacements.

Mandatory energy savings - whatever next. It's MY money.

Perhaps, but its not your choice alas. Unless you have the skills to
install and commission your own boiler, then you are restricted by what
your installer is prepared to use and commission. They in turn are
restricted by building regs and Gas Safe etc as to what they can legally
install.


I have what he called a balanced flu.

You and everyone else. There are not many open flue boilers left out in
the wild these days, fortunately.

So do most people these days. You could well have a condensing boiler
without knowing it.

I think you need to read up on the basics of central heating design
which should include inter alia boiler types, heat output, circuit
design, pipe sizing, etc.

Then there is the more sophisticated stuff - programmable thermostats,
zoning, weather compensation, heat recovery ...

Ever heard of the acronym KISS?

Yes, but its not an option with any boiler you can buy today. They must
exceed 86% efficiency, and big lumps of cast iron with permanent pilot
lights don't.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

[John Rumm]

On 05/12/2011 22:36, Lieutenant Scott wrote:
On Mon, 05 Dec 2011 22:18:25 -0000, Roger Chapman
wrote:

On 05/12/2011 21:50, Lieutenant Scott wrote:

But getting hot isn't enough with condensing boilers, the rads
have to
drop
the return temp to about 50C so the boilers condense while still
providing
enough heat to do their job.
This can be somewhat difficult if a lot more water is going through
one rad
than another.

Then don't use a condensing boiler.

These days you don't get much choice.

Worst case scenario it doesn't condense, so you get less efficiency?

For it to condense first get a condensing boiler.

I don't think I have one, there is no fan or condensate piping. It was
fitted in about 1995.

If yours does not have a fanned flue, then its probably fairly basic,
and unlikely to exceed 70% efficiency. Hence it wastes 30p of every £
you spend on gas.

With a natural gas fired boiler the difference can be considerable - up
to 10%.

I don't call 10% considerable. It's not even enough to make a pig stop
you for speeding.

Compared to yours, a modern boiler is likely to be 25% better.

And why does all the water going to one radiator cause a problem? The
water would still cool by 15C or whatever it is. I assume a condensing
boiler can handle only one radiator being switched on, which would have
the same effect.

You seem to be making a lot of very strange assumptions. The heat loss
in any radiator is a function of the volume of water flowing through the
temperature drop across the radiator. The bigger the radiator the more
scope there is to give out heat and the narrower the pipework the less
water you can force through it.

If you actually want to get a 15C drop across the radiator you have to
slow down the throughput and sacrifice some of the heat output you would
have got had you the means to push water through the radiator so fast
you only get a very small temperature drop.

With condensing boilers you need bigger radiators so you can get the
return temperature to below IIRC 53C to get the condensing process
started but you need the return temperature a good way below that in
order to get a 10% advantage over a non condensing boiler.

Sounds like a lot of hassle, one of these things where people spend
1000s of pounds to save a few pennies. Kinda like solar panels.

Much depends on the size of your gas bill. There is often no point in
ripping and replacing a working system unless you have very high bills.
However when you are forced to replace, you may as well go for the best
available at the time.

I will probably rip out and replace my boiler on the grounds of
efficiency, but only because a new one will pay for itself in two to
three years due to the current size of the bills.

Except for certain very limited
exceptions condensing boilers are mandatory both as new installations
and as replacements.

Mandatory energy savings - whatever next. It's MY money.

You want to replace your window you have to have double glazing using
special (ie) expensive glass.

Do I hell. I replace it with what *I* want.

Depends on if you can do it yourself again. A FENSA register installer
will only be able to install stuff that complies with modern building regs.

You want to improve the insulation of your
has you can't take any half measures, you must do it to new build
standards. Big brother is alive and well and living in your wallet.

Really? Does he watch what I put in the loft?

Yup.

I have what he called a balanced flu.

So do most people these days. You could well have a condensing boiler
without knowing it.

I think you need to read up on the basics of central heating design
which should include inter alia boiler types, heat output, circuit
design, pipe sizing, etc.

Then there is the more sophisticated stuff - programmable thermostats,
zoning, weather compensation, heat recovery ...

Ever heard of the acronym KISS?

Well if you want to be considered stupid I will oblige in future and not
bother you with inconvenient facts.

I was trying to tell you that overcomplicating thongs is pointless.

More of a Y front person myself, so can't really comment.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

[John Rumm]

On 07/12/2011 22:58, Tim Streater wrote:
In article ,
John Rumm wrote:

Modern boilers will load sense and modulate - so as the differential
between flow and return falls (which in a correctly working and
balanced system indicates that the house temperature is rising), the
boiler will reduce its output to better match the rate of heat loss
into the house.

You talking about gas or oil, here, John? Or both?

Mostly gas. Some modern oil boilers may be able to modulate, but with
far less range and flexibility compared to a gas one.

Be nice to think an
oil job can vary its output. Otherwise, seems to me, there is a good
risk it just dumps its heat up the flu if the return temp is too high.

Its probably not that bad - as it can't modulate as much, the flow temp
will start to rise and it will then cycle off on its internal stat.
Since the pump will still be running, the hot water in the boiler ought
not be wasted and can still be circulated out to the rads. Cycling like
that is less desirable than a wide modulation range, but it is not the
highly inefficient cycling that one associates with old cast iron
boilers being cycled on the room stat with no pump overrun.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/