On 05/12/2011 21:46, Lieutenant Scott wrote:
On Mon, 05 Dec 2011 15:43:30 -0000, thirty-six
wrote:

On Dec 5, 3:11 pm, "Lieutenant Scott" wrote:
On Mon, 05 Dec 2011 14:20:06 -0000, thirty-six
wrote:
On Dec 4, 11:42 pm, "Lieutenant Scott" wrote:
http://diydata.com/projects/centralh...diator_balanci...


Why? Surely if your boiler is powerful enough you don't need to
mess around like this. If your boiler can't heat all the radiators at
once, your boiler is too small for the system. Even with all my
radiators on full blast, the boiler doesn't run continuously.

I suspect then you have a microbore (8mm, 10mm) sealed system radially
distributed by a central manifold.

Of course. Do you mean to tell me that the large bore systems don't
have a correspondingly larger bore pipe from the boiler to feed them?
What ****t designed that?!?

Do you know anyone using a large bore system in a small house? Do you
alternatively mean minibore (22&15mm)? I would rather you get your
terminology in order before hurling insults.

Large in comparison to microbore ffs. You know perfectly well what I
meant. So, answer the question, do you have a larger diameter pipe from
the boiler than to each individual radiator? If not no wonder you need
to do the silly balancing act.

Modern systems are usuually plumbed in a mixture of 22 and 15mm pipe.
The upper practical limit on the power transfer of a 15mm pipe is around
6kW, so that alone would not be adequate for a whole system, however is
usually ample for a small number of rads.

Balancing is not by any stretch "silly" and is understood by all but the
most clueless of installers to make a system work better.

Microbore systems sometimes have manifolds that include individual
valves for each outlet. These enable the system to be balanced at the
manifold rather than at the rad.

Must not be operated without
corrosion inhibitor else you will possibly not be able to flush the
crap out the radiators while in situ.

I've been told by a heating engineer that's a load of crap.

Ho-ho.

So why have I never had a problem? I drained the system years ago and
never put inhibitor back in.

Define "problem". A system without inhibitor will corrode faster than
one with it. How fast, and what the consequences of that corrosion will
be however are variable.

A clunky old boiler such as yours will care less about dirty primary
water than will a modern HE boiler[1]. Even a badly corroded system can
seem to be operating well right up until the point the rads start to
pinhole, or sludge build up starts to inhibit performance or cause a
blockage.

Are you cleverer than a Corgi registered
professional?

That seems like a rather daft question... there is no fixed level of
"cleverness" required of registered professionals, and some are
noticeably more clued up than others. Some seem well versed in issues of
corrosion, and others would probably think you were talking about
dietary supplements, and a baseball competition if you mention
electrolytes, and the galvanic series.

If you want a practical example of the effects of inhibitor, see:

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?title=Inhibitor


[1] Modern boilers have primary heat exchangers with a greater number
fins, and narrow water pathways to increase the overall surface area.
Needless to say these are more prone to blocking by sludge, and erosion
by particulate debris in the primary flow.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 08/12/2011 14:45, Tim Streater wrote:
In article ,
John Rumm wrote:

On 07/12/2011 22:58, Tim Streater wrote:
In article ,
John Rumm wrote:

Modern boilers will load sense and modulate - so as the differential
between flow and return falls (which in a correctly working and
balanced system indicates that the house temperature is rising), the
boiler will reduce its output to better match the rate of heat loss
into the house.

You talking about gas or oil, here, John? Or both?

Mostly gas. Some modern oil boilers may be able to modulate, but with
far less range and flexibility compared to a gas one.

It is worth remembering that condensing model with oil fired boilers is
not so useful as it is with gas fired boilers. The difference between
lower and high CV for gas is just over 10% but for kerosene it is only
just over 6% and for diesel it is marginally less.

Be nice to think an
oil job can vary its output. Otherwise, seems to me, there is a good
risk it just dumps its heat up the flu if the return temp is too high.

Its probably not that bad - as it can't modulate as much, the flow
temp will start to rise and it will then cycle off on its internal
stat. Since the pump will still be running, the hot water in the
boiler ought not be wasted and can still be circulated out to the
rads. Cycling like that is less desirable than a wide modulation
range, but it is not the highly inefficient cycling that one
associates with old cast iron boilers being cycled on the room stat
with no pump overrun.

Ah. In our case we have only one room stat (and its in the hall). Sounds
like I should turn it up high and control matters via the TRVs.

Possibly not. We have had many an argument over the years about where is
the best place to mount the room stat and position the radiator without
a TRV. Having the room stat in a place where you don't much care how
closely the temperature is controlled is not ideal as far as I am
concerned. Not only do you have to ensure that the hall warms up more
slowly than the rooms where you actually spend your time TRVs are also
more susceptible to changes to outside events than a room stat so have
to adjusted a bit more frequently if you happen to be sensitive to cold.
Be that as it may (and many would dispute the living room as the best
place for the room stat) turning the hall stat right up will leave the
boiler firing up just to heat the hall to a temperature you really don't
want to waste gas on. There is no ideal solution but throttling the hall
radiator down rather than turning the hall stat up is the cheaper one
for your circumstances.

For what its worth I have separate upstairs and downstairs heating zones
with programmable stats in the main bedroom and the living room.

--
Roger Chapman

On Tue, 06 Dec 2011 10:08:40 -0000, Tim Streater wrote:

In article op.v51m53lmytk5n5@i7-940, "Lieutenant Scott"
wrote:

On Mon, 05 Dec 2011 23:31:56 -0000, Tim Streater
wrote:

In article op.v51frpnhytk5n5@i7-940, "Lieutenant Scott"
wrote:

On Mon, 05 Dec 2011 22:18:25 -0000, Roger Chapman

wrote:

You want to replace your window you have to have double glazing using
special (ie) expensive glass.

Do I hell. I replace it with what *I* want.

No problem until you come to sell your house. Then the prospective buyer
wants to know what changes you've made - and then wants to see the
accompanying paperwork. If the windows have been done and there's no
FENSA signoff to show its to standard (if you get a builder to do it) or
if you've got nothing from Building Control (if you do it yourself),
then the buyer will evaporate.

Why would they know the window has been replaced?

I actually bought this house in 2000 with single glazing. What if I had
never installed double? Are you saying I couldn't now sell it?

No. I'm saying that any competent solicitor, and their client, would
want to be assured that any changes made since it was built comply with
the regs in force at the time. So if you've (say) changed a window in
the last 10 years they'd expect it to be DG. Of course, you could
"forget" to mention that, but if the purchaser then got dinged
themselves later, they could sue you.

I'll try not to sell to an American.

--
http://petersparrots.com
http://petersphotos.com

What do you call an aerobics instructor who doesn't cause pain & agony?
Unemployed.

In article op.v7lygsslytk5n5@i7-940,
Lieutenant Scott wrote:
Ah well I am in Scotland. I don't get scale in the kettle or dishwasher
either, but I've been told by my Aunt in London that it's awful. Can't
they filter that crap out of the water supply?

'They' can't manage it in some parts of Scotland either.

BTW, there is some evidence that hard water is better for your heart than
soft.

--
*OK, who stopped payment on my reality check?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 05/01/2012 11:06, Lieutenant Scott wrote:
Ah well I am in Scotland. I don't get scale in the kettle or dishwasher
either, but I've been told by my Aunt in London that it's awful. Can't
they filter that crap out of the water supply?

That crud in the water might ruin your boiler and make the tea scummy,
but it's actually good for you.

Andy

On Jan 5, 11:06*am, "Lieutenant Scott" wrote:
On Tue, 06 Dec 2011 03:52:44 -0000, thirty-six wrote:
On Dec 5, 9:46 pm, "Lieutenant Scott" wrote:
On Mon, 05 Dec 2011 15:43:30 -0000, thirty-six wrote:
On Dec 5, 3:11 pm, "Lieutenant Scott" wrote:
On Mon, 05 Dec 2011 14:20:06 -0000, thirty-six wrote:
On Dec 4, 11:42 pm, "Lieutenant Scott" wrote:
http://diydata.com/projects/centralh...diator_balanci...

Why? *Surely if your boiler is powerful enough you don't need to mess around like this. *If your boiler can't heat all the radiators at once, your boiler is too small for the system. *Even with all my radiators on full blast, the boiler doesn't run continuously.

I suspect then you have a microbore (8mm, 10mm) sealed system radially
distributed by a central manifold.

Of course. *Do you mean to tell me that the large bore systems don't have a correspondingly larger bore pipe from the boiler to feed them? *What ****t designed that?!?

Do you know anyone using a large bore system in a small house? *Do you
alternatively mean minibore (22&15mm)? *I would rather you get your
terminology in order before hurling insults.

Large in comparison to microbore ffs. *You know perfectly well what I meant. *So, answer the question, do you have a larger diameter pipe from the boiler than to each individual radiator? *If not no wonder you need to do the silly balancing act.

Rad feeds from the main flow and return are of different lengths,
available pressure at each rad varies so balncing is tequired to get
the furthest rad to spec. on heat output when all user controls are
fully open.

So how come mine works perfectly with all valves open fully? *All the radiators warm up at the same rate and become piping hot very quickly. *I've got 22mm from the boiler, through the pump, to two 15mm pipes (one for radiators and one for the hot water tank), to 8mm for each radiator (except the garage which is 10mm for two radiators).

A 22mm pipe can feed two 15mm pipes without loss of capacity and a
15mm can feed two 10mm or four 8mm pipes without loss of capacity. As
long as these demands arn't exceeded (with feed lengths within reason)
and are all on the same level it wont matter where the rad valves are
set

Must not be operated without
corrosion inhibitor else you will possibly not be able to flush the
crap out the radiators while in situ.

I've been told by a heating engineer that's a load of crap.

Ho-ho.

So why have I never had a problem?

If you don't know, you've been lucky. *Your water was neutral with
minimal mineral content the autovent has worked without fault and the
system has remained tight.

Ah well I am in Scotland. *I don't get scale in the kettle or dishwasher either, but I've been told by my Aunt in London that it's awful. *Can't they filter that crap out of the water supply?

Hard water is good for your health. Soft acidic water consumed
continuously will draw valuable minerals from your body.

I drained the system years ago and never put inhibitor back in. *Are you cleverer than a Corgi registered professional?

No leaks are tolerable, and less likely.

Not sure what you mean.

I said LEAKS not LEEKS.

I know. *So what did you mean?

LEAKS !

I know what kinda leak you meant, I was querying the context.


Huh, for a pressurised system, was that? If the system leaks then
it requires topping up with fresh water which introduces oxygen, which
if not vented off will cause corrosion. If your autovent is correctly
sited, remains fully functional and you top up with a close circuit
with a high heat running, the oxygen should vent quickly away out the
system, but it's best not to have to put it in, in the first place.
Other problems with top-up water could be excessive acidity or
excessive mineral content, but this will likely only matter if the
leak was great requiring top-ups at least every month.

On 05/01/2012 20:31, Andy Champ wrote:
On 05/01/2012 11:06, Lieutenant Scott wrote:
Ah well I am in Scotland. I don't get scale in the kettle or dishwasher
either, but I've been told by my Aunt in London that it's awful. Can't
they filter that crap out of the water supply?

That crud in the water might ruin your boiler and make the tea scummy,
but it's actually good for you.

Tastes better as well!

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Wed, 07 Dec 2011 21:23:49 -0000, John Rumm wrote:

On 05/12/2011 22:36, Lieutenant Scott wrote:
On Mon, 05 Dec 2011 22:18:25 -0000, Roger Chapman
wrote:

On 05/12/2011 21:50, Lieutenant Scott wrote:

Except for certain very limited
exceptions condensing boilers are mandatory both as new installations
and as replacements.

Mandatory energy savings - whatever next. It's MY money.

You want to replace your window you have to have double glazing using
special (ie) expensive glass.

Do I hell. I replace it with what *I* want.

Depends on if you can do it yourself again. A FENSA register installer
will only be able to install stuff that complies with modern building regs.

That's why it's best to steer clear of them :-)

You want to improve the insulation of your
has you can't take any half measures, you must do it to new build
standards. Big brother is alive and well and living in your wallet.

Really? Does he watch what I put in the loft?

Yup.

I cannot locate the cameras.

So do most people these days. You could well have a condensing boiler
without knowing it.

I think you need to read up on the basics of central heating design
which should include inter alia boiler types, heat output, circuit
design, pipe sizing, etc.

Then there is the more sophisticated stuff - programmable thermostats,
zoning, weather compensation, heat recovery ...

Ever heard of the acronym KISS?

Well if you want to be considered stupid I will oblige in future and not
bother you with inconvenient facts.

I was trying to tell you that overcomplicating thongs is pointless.

More of a Y front person myself, so can't really comment.

Bloody spellchecker!

Y FRONTS?!?!?! Didn't those go out in the 70s?

Anyway, I said kiss....

--
http://petersparrots.com
http://petersphotos.com

If space is a vacuum, who changes the bags?

On Dec 5 2011, 3:14*pm, "Lieutenant Scott" wrote:
On Mon, 05 Dec 2011 09:41:38 -0000, dennis@home wrote:

"Lieutenant Scott" wrote in message
newsp.v5zrnxc8ytk5n5@i7-940...

Well your system must be really crap then. *All my valves are fully open,
and all the radiators get hot. *The radiators have pipes thinner than the
pipe coming from the boiler (obviously). *Just like the wire supplying all
the lightbulbs in your house is thicker than the filament in one
lightbulb!!!!

You should do the lottery, having such a badly commissioned system that
works is pretty lucky.

It was fitted by the Corgi certified fitter that used to live here. *It is a brilliant system and I have never even serviced it in 11 years!

Of course if you fit an oversized pump and run it on max most systems will
get hot.

And so you should. *The pump should be able to push water through all the radiators at once.

But getting hot isn't enough with condensing boilers, the rads have to drop
the return temp to about 50C so the boilers condense while still providing
enough heat to do their job.
This can be somewhat difficult if a lot more water is going through one rad
than another.

Then don't use a condensing boiler. *I have what he called a balanced flu.

--http://petersparrots.comhttp://petersphotos.com

Sky have just won the rights to screen the first World Origami Championships from Tokyo.
Unfortunately it's only available on Paper View.

Blanced flue is not neccesarily anything to do with it being balanced
flue.

On Dec 5 2011, 3:17*pm, "Gazz" wrote:
"Lieutenant Scott" wrote

I have what he called a balanced flu.

that's just a nicer way for him to tell you your talking out of your arse..

But actually the "Lootentant" is talking out o fhis arse (as usual).

On Dec 5 2011, 3:36*pm, Roger Chapman
wrote:
On 05/12/2011 15:07, Lieutenant Scott wrote:

Cars don't need heating but having somewhere dry to keep them probably
helps.

How do you get a car in a garage? *Garages automatically fill up with
junk. *I'm having to build a third shed now to keep stuff in.

You stuff your house with junk and also have a bigger garage. It also
helps if you move frequently. If you stay put as I have for the last 33
years it helps to have a barn instead of a garage. (And there is
precious little spare space in my barn even though it is a two story
affair with more floor space than my house).

--
Roger Chapman

So, you leave your expensive car on the drive/street and fill the
garage full of junk?
That makes sense.

On Dec 5 2011, 3:43*pm, thirty-six wrote:
On Dec 5, 3:11*pm, "Lieutenant Scott" wrote:

On Mon, 05 Dec 2011 14:20:06 -0000, thirty-six wrote:
On Dec 4, 11:42 pm, "Lieutenant Scott" wrote:
http://diydata.com/projects/centralh...diator_balanci....

Why? *Surely if your boiler is powerful enough you don't need to mess around like this. *If your boiler can't heat all the radiators at once, your boiler is too small for the system. *Even with all my radiators on full blast, the boiler doesn't run continuously.

I suspect then you have a microbore (8mm, 10mm) sealed system radially
distributed by a central manifold.

Of course. *Do you mean to tell me that the large bore systems don't have a correspondingly larger bore pipe from the boiler to feed them? *What ****t designed that?!?

Do you know anyone using a large bore system in a small house? *Do you
alternatively mean minibore (22&15mm)? *I would rather you get your
terminology in order before hurling insults.



Must not be operated without
corrosion inhibitor else you will possibly not be able to flush the
crap out the radiators while in situ.

I've been told by a heating engineer that's a load of crap.

Ho-ho.



No leaks are tolerable, and less likely.

Not sure what you mean.

I said LEAKS not LEEKS.

The heating engineer was right.

On Dec 5 2011, 9:46*pm, "Lieutenant Scott" wrote:
On Mon, 05 Dec 2011 15:43:30 -0000, thirty-six wrote:
On Dec 5, 3:11 pm, "Lieutenant Scott" wrote:
On Mon, 05 Dec 2011 14:20:06 -0000, thirty-six wrote:
On Dec 4, 11:42 pm, "Lieutenant Scott" wrote:
http://diydata.com/projects/centralh...diator_balanci...

Why? *Surely if your boiler is powerful enough you don't need to mess around like this. *If your boiler can't heat all the radiators at once, your boiler is too small for the system. *Even with all my radiators on full blast, the boiler doesn't run continuously.

I suspect then you have a microbore (8mm, 10mm) sealed system radially
distributed by a central manifold.

Of course. *Do you mean to tell me that the large bore systems don't have a correspondingly larger bore pipe from the boiler to feed them? *What ****t designed that?!?

Do you know anyone using a large bore system in a small house? *Do you
alternatively mean minibore (22&15mm)? *I would rather you get your
terminology in order before hurling insults.

Large in comparison to microbore ffs. *You know perfectly well what I meant. *So, answer the question, do you have a larger diameter pipe from the boiler than to each individual radiator? *If not no wonder you need to do the silly balancing act.

Must not be operated without
corrosion inhibitor else you will possibly not be able to flush the
crap out the radiators while in situ.

I've been told by a heating engineer that's a load of crap.

Ho-ho.

So why have I never had a problem? *I drained the system years ago and never put inhibitor back in. *Are you cleverer than a Corgi registered professional?

No leaks are tolerable, and less likely.

Not sure what you mean.

I said LEAKS not LEEKS.

I know. *So what did you mean?

--http://petersparrots.comhttp://petersphotos.com

Just remember...if the world didn't suck, we'd all fall off.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Your problem is there but you can't see it. Radiators corrode from the
inside out. By the time a hole appears, too late you have to buy a
new radiator.

On Fri, 06 Jan 2012 08:51:54 -0000, harry wrote:

On Dec 5 2011, 9:46 pm, "Lieutenant Scott" wrote:
On Mon, 05 Dec 2011 15:43:30 -0000, thirty-six wrote:
On Dec 5, 3:11 pm, "Lieutenant Scott" wrote:
On Mon, 05 Dec 2011 14:20:06 -0000, thirty-six wrote:
On Dec 4, 11:42 pm, "Lieutenant Scott" wrote:
http://diydata.com/projects/centralh...diator_balanci...

Why? Surely if your boiler is powerful enough you don't need to mess around like this. If your boiler can't heat all the radiators at once, your boiler is too small for the system. Even with all my radiators on full blast, the boiler doesn't run continuously.

I suspect then you have a microbore (8mm, 10mm) sealed system radially
distributed by a central manifold.

Of course. Do you mean to tell me that the large bore systems don't have a correspondingly larger bore pipe from the boiler to feed them? What ****t designed that?!?

Do you know anyone using a large bore system in a small house? Do you
alternatively mean minibore (22&15mm)? I would rather you get your
terminology in order before hurling insults.

Large in comparison to microbore ffs. You know perfectly well what I meant. So, answer the question, do you have a larger diameter pipe from the boiler than to each individual radiator? If not no wonder you need to do the silly balancing act.

Must not be operated without
corrosion inhibitor else you will possibly not be able to flush the
crap out the radiators while in situ.

I've been told by a heating engineer that's a load of crap.

Ho-ho.

So why have I never had a problem? I drained the system years ago and never put inhibitor back in. Are you cleverer than a Corgi registered professional?

No leaks are tolerable, and less likely.

Not sure what you mean.

I said LEAKS not LEEKS.

I know. So what did you mean?

--http://petersparrots.comhttp://petersphotos.com

Just remember...if the world didn't suck, we'd all fall off.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Your problem is there but you can't see it. Radiators corrode from the
inside out. By the time a hole appears, too late you have to buy a
new radiator.

Radiators are free.


--
http://petersparrots.com
http://petersphotos.com

What lives in the sea, and goes dah di dah dit, dah dah dit dah?
A morse cod.

On Fri, 06 Jan 2012 08:47:45 -0000, harry wrote:

On Dec 5 2011, 3:43 pm, thirty-six wrote:
On Dec 5, 3:11 pm, "Lieutenant Scott" wrote:

On Mon, 05 Dec 2011 14:20:06 -0000, thirty-six wrote:
On Dec 4, 11:42 pm, "Lieutenant Scott" wrote:
http://diydata.com/projects/centralh...diator_balanci...

Why? Surely if your boiler is powerful enough you don't need to mess around like this. If your boiler can't heat all the radiators at once, your boiler is too small for the system. Even with all my radiators on full blast, the boiler doesn't run continuously.

I suspect then you have a microbore (8mm, 10mm) sealed system radially
distributed by a central manifold.

Of course. Do you mean to tell me that the large bore systems don't have a correspondingly larger bore pipe from the boiler to feed them? What ****t designed that?!?

Do you know anyone using a large bore system in a small house? Do you
alternatively mean minibore (22&15mm)? I would rather you get your
terminology in order before hurling insults.



Must not be operated without
corrosion inhibitor else you will possibly not be able to flush the
crap out the radiators while in situ.

I've been told by a heating engineer that's a load of crap.

Ho-ho.



No leaks are tolerable, and less likely.

Not sure what you mean.

I said LEAKS not LEEKS.

The heating engineer was right.

So I've nothing to worry about then?

--
http://petersparrots.com
http://petersphotos.com

Money can't buy you true love.
It does however put you in a good bargaining position.

On Fri, 06 Jan 2012 08:46:23 -0000, harry wrote:

On Dec 5 2011, 3:36 pm, Roger Chapman
wrote:
On 05/12/2011 15:07, Lieutenant Scott wrote:

Cars don't need heating but having somewhere dry to keep them probably
helps.

How do you get a car in a garage? Garages automatically fill up with
junk. I'm having to build a third shed now to keep stuff in.

You stuff your house with junk and also have a bigger garage. It also
helps if you move frequently. If you stay put as I have for the last 33
years it helps to have a barn instead of a garage. (And there is
precious little spare space in my barn even though it is a two story
affair with more floor space than my house).

So, you leave your expensive car on the drive/street and fill the
garage full of junk?
That makes sense.

Well cars are generally waterproof and don't blow away.

--
http://petersparrots.com
http://petersphotos.com

Money can't buy you true love.
It does however put you in a good bargaining position.

On Fri, 06 Jan 2012 08:44:48 -0000, harry wrote:

On Dec 5 2011, 3:17 pm, "Gazz" wrote:
"Lieutenant Scott" wrote

I have what he called a balanced flu.

that's just a nicer way for him to tell you your talking out of your arse.

But actually the "Lootentant" is talking out o fhis arse (as usual).

Well it works just fine.

--
http://petersparrots.com
http://petersphotos.com

How does a Welshman find a sheep in tall grass?
Very satisfying.

On Fri, 06 Jan 2012 08:43:37 -0000, harry wrote:

On Dec 5 2011, 3:14 pm, "Lieutenant Scott" wrote:
On Mon, 05 Dec 2011 09:41:38 -0000, dennis@home wrote:

"Lieutenant Scott" wrote in message
newsp.v5zrnxc8ytk5n5@i7-940...

Well your system must be really crap then. All my valves are fully open,
and all the radiators get hot. The radiators have pipes thinner than the
pipe coming from the boiler (obviously). Just like the wire supplying all
the lightbulbs in your house is thicker than the filament in one
lightbulb!!!!

You should do the lottery, having such a badly commissioned system that
works is pretty lucky.

It was fitted by the Corgi certified fitter that used to live here. It is a brilliant system and I have never even serviced it in 11 years!

Of course if you fit an oversized pump and run it on max most systems will
get hot.

And so you should. The pump should be able to push water through all the radiators at once.

But getting hot isn't enough with condensing boilers, the rads have to drop
the return temp to about 50C so the boilers condense while still providing
enough heat to do their job.
This can be somewhat difficult if a lot more water is going through one rad
than another.

Then don't use a condensing boiler. I have what he called a balanced flu.

--http://petersparrots.comhttp://petersphotos.com

Sky have just won the rights to screen the first World Origami Championships from Tokyo.
Unfortunately it's only available on Paper View.

Blanced flue is not neccesarily anything to do with it being balanced
flue.

What? And being an elephant is nothing to do with an elephant being an elephant? Are you high?

--
http://petersparrots.com
http://petersphotos.com

We've come so far that community service is considered punishment.

On Fri, 06 Jan 2012 00:15:57 -0000, John Rumm wrote:

On 05/01/2012 20:31, Andy Champ wrote:
On 05/01/2012 11:06, Lieutenant Scott wrote:
Ah well I am in Scotland. I don't get scale in the kettle or dishwasher
either, but I've been told by my Aunt in London that it's awful. Can't
they filter that crap out of the water supply?

That crud in the water might ruin your boiler and make the tea scummy,
but it's actually good for you.

Tastes better as well!

She filters it! Mind you I think that's more the thought of Thames water being RECYCLED 7 times. BLURGH!!!!

--
http://petersparrots.com
http://petersphotos.com

If the Internet is a superhighway, then AOL must be a fleet of farm equipment that straddles five lanes and pays no heed to "Keep Right Except to Pass" signs.

On Thu, 08 Dec 2011 11:25:19 -0000, John Rumm wrote:

On 05/12/2011 21:46, Lieutenant Scott wrote:
On Mon, 05 Dec 2011 15:43:30 -0000, thirty-six
wrote:

On Dec 5, 3:11 pm, "Lieutenant Scott" wrote:
On Mon, 05 Dec 2011 14:20:06 -0000, thirty-six
wrote:
On Dec 4, 11:42 pm, "Lieutenant Scott" wrote:
http://diydata.com/projects/centralh...diator_balanci...


Why? Surely if your boiler is powerful enough you don't need to
mess around like this. If your boiler can't heat all the radiators at
once, your boiler is too small for the system. Even with all my
radiators on full blast, the boiler doesn't run continuously.

I suspect then you have a microbore (8mm, 10mm) sealed system radially
distributed by a central manifold.

Of course. Do you mean to tell me that the large bore systems don't
have a correspondingly larger bore pipe from the boiler to feed them?
What ****t designed that?!?

Do you know anyone using a large bore system in a small house? Do you
alternatively mean minibore (22&15mm)? I would rather you get your
terminology in order before hurling insults.

Large in comparison to microbore ffs. You know perfectly well what I
meant. So, answer the question, do you have a larger diameter pipe from
the boiler than to each individual radiator? If not no wonder you need
to do the silly balancing act.

Modern systems are usuually plumbed in a mixture of 22 and 15mm pipe.
The upper practical limit on the power transfer of a 15mm pipe is around
6kW, so that alone would not be adequate for a whole system, however is
usually ample for a small number of rads.

Balancing is not by any stretch "silly" and is understood by all but the
most clueless of installers to make a system work better.

It's a workaround for a poorly thought out system.

Microbore systems sometimes have manifolds that include individual
valves for each outlet. These enable the system to be balanced at the
manifold rather than at the rad.

Must not be operated without
corrosion inhibitor else you will possibly not be able to flush the
crap out the radiators while in situ.

I've been told by a heating engineer that's a load of crap.

Ho-ho.

So why have I never had a problem? I drained the system years ago and
never put inhibitor back in.

Define "problem". A system without inhibitor will corrode faster than
one with it. How fast, and what the consequences of that corrosion will
be however are variable.

A clunky old boiler such as yours will care less about dirty primary
water than will a modern HE boiler[1].

[1] Modern boilers have primary heat exchangers with a greater number
fins, and narrow water pathways to increase the overall surface area.
Needless to say these are more prone to blocking by sludge, and erosion
by particulate debris in the primary flow.

So my boiler is actually better! Cool.

Even a badly corroded system can
seem to be operating well right up until the point the rads start to
pinhole, or sludge build up starts to inhibit performance or cause a
blockage.

Fix it when and if it happens. Anyway the nice clean Scots water will not do that so fast. And when I've removed a radiator (for renovations, nothing to do with the heating), the water in it was perfectly clean.

Are you cleverer than a Corgi registered
professional?

That seems like a rather daft question... there is no fixed level of
"cleverness" required of registered professionals, and some are
noticeably more clued up than others. Some seem well versed in issues of
corrosion, and others would probably think you were talking about
dietary supplements, and a baseball competition if you mention
electrolytes, and the galvanic series.

I know one that didn't understand the word "topological".

--
http://petersparrots.com
http://petersphotos.com

What does a Polish woman do after she sucks a cock?
Spits out the feathers.

"Lieutenant Scott" wrote in message
newsp.v5zrnxc8ytk5n5@i7-940...
On Mon, 05 Dec 2011 00:05:55 -0000, Alan wrote:

In message op.v5zn4fz1ytk5n5@i7-940, Lieutenant Scott
wrote
http://diydata.com/projects/centralh..._balancing.php

Why? Surely if your boiler is powerful enough you don't need to mess
around like this. If your boiler can't heat all the radiators at once,
your boiler is too small for the system. Even with all my radiators on
full blast, the boiler doesn't run continuously.



Water takes the path of least resistance. If you left all the valves to
your radiators fully open the pipe work to one radiator would provide
the path of least resistance and the majority of the water would only
flow through that one radiator. Some radiators would get so little water
flow they wouldn't heat up, irrespective of the boiler rating.

If you want to see this for yourself just open the lock-shield valves on
the radiators nearest to your boiler in your system and see if all the
radiators now get heated satisfactory.

Well your system must be really crap then. All my valves are fully open,
and all the radiators get hot. The radiators have pipes thinner than the
pipe coming from the boiler (obviously). Just like the wire supplying all
the lightbulbs in your house is thicker than the filament in one
lightbulb!!!!


You really have little clue of why rads are sized up properly and balanced.
This is sad.

On 06/01/2012 11:57, Lieutenant Scott wrote:
On Thu, 08 Dec 2011 11:25:19 -0000, John Rumm
wrote:

On 05/12/2011 21:46, Lieutenant Scott wrote:
On Mon, 05 Dec 2011 15:43:30 -0000, thirty-six
wrote:

On Dec 5, 3:11 pm, "Lieutenant Scott" wrote:
On Mon, 05 Dec 2011 14:20:06 -0000, thirty-six
wrote:
On Dec 4, 11:42 pm, "Lieutenant Scott" wrote:
http://diydata.com/projects/centralh...diator_balanci...



Why? Surely if your boiler is powerful enough you don't need to
mess around like this. If your boiler can't heat all the radiators at
once, your boiler is too small for the system. Even with all my
radiators on full blast, the boiler doesn't run continuously.

I suspect then you have a microbore (8mm, 10mm) sealed system
radially
distributed by a central manifold.

Of course. Do you mean to tell me that the large bore systems don't
have a correspondingly larger bore pipe from the boiler to feed them?
What ****t designed that?!?

Do you know anyone using a large bore system in a small house? Do you
alternatively mean minibore (22&15mm)? I would rather you get your
terminology in order before hurling insults.

Large in comparison to microbore ffs. You know perfectly well what I
meant. So, answer the question, do you have a larger diameter pipe from
the boiler than to each individual radiator? If not no wonder you need
to do the silly balancing act.

Modern systems are usuually plumbed in a mixture of 22 and 15mm pipe.
The upper practical limit on the power transfer of a 15mm pipe is around
6kW, so that alone would not be adequate for a whole system, however is
usually ample for a small number of rads.

Balancing is not by any stretch "silly" and is understood by all but the
most clueless of installers to make a system work better.

It's a workaround for a poorly thought out system.

Even well thought out systems usually need balancing to get the best
from them.


So why have I never had a problem? I drained the system years ago and
never put inhibitor back in.

Define "problem". A system without inhibitor will corrode faster than
one with it. How fast, and what the consequences of that corrosion will
be however are variable.

A clunky old boiler such as yours will care less about dirty primary
water than will a modern HE boiler[1].

[1] Modern boilers have primary heat exchangers with a greater number
fins, and narrow water pathways to increase the overall surface area.
Needless to say these are more prone to blocking by sludge, and erosion
by particulate debris in the primary flow.

So my boiler is actually better! Cool.

Better in the sense its less fussy about running in a dirty and poorly
maintained system. You pay for that in lower efficiency though. So you
pays your money and takes your choice...

Even a badly corroded system can
seem to be operating well right up until the point the rads start to
pinhole, or sludge build up starts to inhibit performance or cause a
blockage.

Fix it when and if it happens. Anyway the nice clean Scots water will

Its an expensive fix at that point...

not do that so fast. And when I've removed a radiator (for renovations,
nothing to do with the heating), the water in it was perfectly clean.

The source of the water in the primary circuit has very little to do
with it. The sludge does not come from the water, it comes from
corrosion of the system itself. In hard water areas there will be a
small amount of scale deposited - but this only happens each time the
system is refilled. Once the scale has precipitated out, there is no
more to deposit.

The place the soft water will be of benefit is on the DHW side of a
plate heat exchanger on a combi. It will stop that bit scaling. The does
not prevent the primary side from getting blocked by rust or sludge though.



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
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|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
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\================================================= ================/

On Jan 6, 11:51*am, "Lieutenant Scott" wrote:
On Fri, 06 Jan 2012 08:47:45 -0000, harry wrote:
On Dec 5 2011, 3:43 pm, thirty-six wrote:
On Dec 5, 3:11 pm, "Lieutenant Scott" wrote:

On Mon, 05 Dec 2011 14:20:06 -0000, thirty-six wrote:
On Dec 4, 11:42 pm, "Lieutenant Scott" wrote:
http://diydata.com/projects/centralh...diator_balanci...

Why? *Surely if your boiler is powerful enough you don't need to mess around like this. *If your boiler can't heat all the radiators at once, your boiler is too small for the system. *Even with all my radiators on full blast, the boiler doesn't run continuously.

I suspect then you have a microbore (8mm, 10mm) sealed system radially
distributed by a central manifold.

Of course. *Do you mean to tell me that the large bore systems don't have a correspondingly larger bore pipe from the boiler to feed them? *What ****t designed that?!?

Do you know anyone using a large bore system in a small house? *Do you
alternatively mean minibore (22&15mm)? *I would rather you get your
terminology in order before hurling insults.

Must not be operated without
corrosion inhibitor else you will possibly not be able to flush the
crap out the radiators while in situ.

I've been told by a heating engineer that's a load of crap.

Ho-ho.

No leaks are tolerable, and less likely.

Not sure what you mean.

I said LEAKS not LEEKS.

The heating engineer was right.

So I've nothing to worry about then?

--http://petersparrots.comhttp://petersphotos.com

Money can't buy you true love.
It does however put you in a good bargaining position.

Now that you've told us the water from the radiator you removed was
clean, then I'd say that if you don't get kettle furring anfter 15
minutes of boiling then it's likely safe without treatment. This
generally doesn't apply throughout the kingdom. In this case, you
possibly wont need to flush the radiators despite the lack of
treatment (which it doesn't apparently, so far, need).

On 06/01/2012 11:52, Lieutenant Scott wrote:
Well cars are generally waterproof and don't blow away.

But they rust, and the paint loses its shine. And it saves a load of
time on a frosty morning.

Andy

On Wed, 07 Dec 2011 21:14:09 -0000, John Rumm wrote:

On 05/12/2011 21:50, Lieutenant Scott wrote:
On Mon, 05 Dec 2011 15:52:00 -0000, Roger Chapman
wrote:

On 05/12/2011 15:14, Lieutenant Scott wrote:

I have what he called a balanced flu.

You and everyone else. There are not many open flue boilers left out in
the wild these days, fortunately.

My neighbour just replaced her open flue one. It was on all the time! I assumed it was because they were old people and used the heating a lot, but their house didn't seem that warm really - maybe it was throwing half the gas out into the driveway (I could certainly smell it sometimes). The installation seemed to involve putting in a new chimney to the roof - I think mainly because the old one was leaking.

So do most people these days. You could well have a condensing boiler
without knowing it.

I think you need to read up on the basics of central heating design
which should include inter alia boiler types, heat output, circuit
design, pipe sizing, etc.

Then there is the more sophisticated stuff - programmable thermostats,
zoning, weather compensation, heat recovery ...

Ever heard of the acronym KISS?

Yes, but its not an option with any boiler you can buy today. They must
exceed 86% efficiency, and big lumps of cast iron with permanent pilot
lights don't.

It'll be electric cars next....

--
http://petersparrots.com
http://petersphotos.com

If a cow laughs, does milk come out of its nose?