[john lewis]

Talking to a man the other day who had spent years and years working for
british gas, but is now working elsewhere.

Do people here generally agree with what he told me?

That new boilers cost about £900 and a new main circuit board costs about
£600 so its worth getting the 'call out' type insurance, to cover it, if it
goes wrong. Of which he thinks Eion and Southern Electric are the best to
get. (he doesn't work for either of them).

He also said if the main circuit board goes its almost work paying out the
extra £300 and get a completely new boiler. (of which he thought Valiant and
another make {which i cannot remember what he said} are the best.

I find it staggering that there are not people out there who can repair
these circuit boards without paying £600 for one.

What he says seems like 'off another planet' to me, but he seemed a
reasonable bloke with a very technical and responsible surveying job.

[Tabby]

On Dec 15, 9:31*pm, "john lewis" wrote:
Talking to a man the other day who had spent years and years working for
british gas, but is now working elsewhere.

Do people here generally agree with what he told me?

That new boilers cost about 900 and a new main circuit board costs about
600 so its worth getting the 'call out' type insurance, to cover it, if it
goes wrong. *Of which he thinks Eion and Southern Electric are the best to
get. (he doesn't work for either of them).

I wouldnt remotely agree. If you buy insurance, even if you're lucky
enough to get an insurer that does what they should, you're then
paying average maintenance costs plus advertising costs plus employee
costs plus profit margin and all sorts of other issues that simply
don't apply when you pay for your own maintenance. Mug's game.


NT

[Bob Eager]

On Wed, 15 Dec 2010 21:31:51 +0000, john lewis wrote:

I find it staggering that there are not people out there who can repair
these circuit boards without paying £600 for one.

You haven't been reading this newsgroup long, have you?

http://www.cetltd.com/

--
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org

*lightning protection* - a w_tom conductor

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article ,
john lewis wrote:
I find it staggering that there are not people out there who can repair
these circuit boards without paying £600 for one.

Oh dear.

But don't you find it even more staggering that a maker can charge 600
quid for something a fraction as complicated as the most basic laptop?

--
*A closed mouth gathers no feet.*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

[Andrew Gabriel]

In article ,
"Booty" writes:

On a similar sort of topic but with less expensive parts I recently repaired
a washing machine that had a blown PCB control module.
The new PCB cost just short of £80 but it was an expensive washer so worth
it.

Especially being that, it's likely, I will have a spare PCB once the Triac
is replaced - I got its ID off the new PCB before I fitted it.
Was unable to ID the Triac after a web search and before buying the new PCB
because the side was blown off.
A new triac of the right type is about £1.00.

I knew the PCB was blown as the side had blown off one of the Triacs and,
thus, I couldn't see the part No.
I took note of all the semiconductor numbers from the new PCB before fitting
it so if any blow in future I know their ID's.

I replaced the motor drive triacs in my Hotpoint. Only one had blown,
but they were 50p each so I couldn't even be bothered to work out which
one, and changed them both. (One does everything except top spin speed,
and the other just does top spin speed which has separate field winding
connection.)

Any 8A 800V Triac can be used - pick one with matching case style.

I knew the fault was a door interlock fault so, to be safe, I replaced the
door interlock as well ( only £9 ish ) - didn't want to blow the new PCB if
For that, you can probably use any 1A 400V triac.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

[The Medway Handyman[_3_]]

john lewis wrote:
Talking to a man the other day who had spent years and years working
for british gas, but is now working elsewhere.

Do people here generally agree with what he told me?

That new boilers cost about £900 and a new main circuit board costs
about £600 so its worth getting the 'call out' type insurance, to
cover it, if it goes wrong. Of which he thinks Eion and Southern
Electric are the best to get. (he doesn't work for either of them).

He also said if the main circuit board goes its almost work paying
out the extra £300 and get a completely new boiler. (of which he
thought Valiant and another make {which i cannot remember what he
said} are the best.
I find it staggering that there are not people out there who can
repair these circuit boards without paying £600 for one.

Paging Geoff. Would Geoff please pick up the white telephone.


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

[harry]

On Dec 15, 9:50*pm, Tabby wrote:
On Dec 15, 9:31*pm, "john *lewis" wrote:

Talking to a man the other day who had spent years and years working for
british gas, but is now working elsewhere.

Do people here generally agree with what he told me?

That new boilers cost about 900 and a new main circuit board costs about
600 so its worth getting the 'call out' type insurance, to cover it, if it
goes wrong. *Of which he thinks Eion and Southern Electric are the best to
get. (he doesn't work for either of them).

I wouldnt remotely agree. If you buy insurance, even if you're lucky
enough to get an insurer that does what they should, you're then
paying average maintenance costs plus advertising costs plus employee
costs plus profit margin and all sorts of other issues that simply
don't apply when you pay for your own maintenance. Mug's game.

NT

Exactly so. I never buy insurance except for house and car.
It's like a roulette wheel. Taken over a period, the insurance will
always win financially. That's why they're there. Not for your
benefit. Most things that arise, I can fix myself anyway. But even
if you can't fix anything it's not worth insurance. Statistics gets
you in the end.

[Dave Liquorice[_2_]]

On Thu, 16 Dec 2010 00:59:55 -0800 (PST), harry wrote:

Exactly so. I never buy insurance except for house and car.

Being self employed I also have Permenant Health Insurance, that pays
out should I be unable to work and is also an investment (I will get
back some of the premiums paid). It doesn't pay a lot but combined
with HMG's basic Sickness Benefit means that we can keep the heating
and lights on and still eat... Her indoors life is also insured so
that if I have to stop work to look after the kids we can still keep
the heating and lights on and still eat.

I certainly don't buy any "extended warranty" insurances though.

--
Cheers
Dave.

[Tabby]

On Dec 16, 9:41*am, "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:
On Thu, 16 Dec 2010 00:59:55 -0800 (PST), harry wrote:
Exactly so. * I never buy insurance except for house and car.

Being self employed I also have Permenant Health Insurance, that pays
out should I be unable to work and is also an investment (I will get
back some of the premiums paid). It doesn't pay a lot but combined
with HMG's basic Sickness Benefit means that we can keep the heating
and lights on and still eat... Her indoors life is also insured so
that if I have to stop work to look after the kids we can still keep
the heating and lights on and still eat.

I certainly don't buy any "extended warranty" insurances though.

Yes, it can be worth it for events you couldnt survive financially,
but an appliance breakdown isnt one of those. And even if it were,
there would be more useful things to do with it, like put in in the
bank and build up a fund to cover a wider range of life's
unpredictables.


NT

[Mark[_30_]]

On Wed, 15 Dec 2010 13:50:20 -0800 (PST), Tabby
wrote:

On Dec 15, 9:31*pm, "john lewis" wrote:
Talking to a man the other day who had spent years and years working for
british gas, but is now working elsewhere.

Do people here generally agree with what he told me?

That new boilers cost about 900 and a new main circuit board costs about
600 so its worth getting the 'call out' type insurance, to cover it, if it
goes wrong. *Of which he thinks Eion and Southern Electric are the best to
get. (he doesn't work for either of them).

I wouldnt remotely agree. If you buy insurance, even if you're lucky
enough to get an insurer that does what they should, you're then
paying average maintenance costs plus advertising costs plus employee
costs plus profit margin and all sorts of other issues that simply
don't apply when you pay for your own maintenance. Mug's game.

I find Worcestor-Bosch offer a decent service + insurance scheme,
although this is only for their own boilers.

One thing to bear in mind is how long can you manage without a working
boiler? WB will come out next day, and sometimes the same day if you
have a problem. Not bad for around £12 per month IIRC.

If the boiler does go wrong it is not always obvious where the fault
lies and I wouldn't want to pay out a lot of money on parts that I
don't need.
--
(\__/) M.
(='.'=) Due to the amount of spam posted via googlegroups and
(")_(") their inaction to the problem. I am blocking some articles
posted from there. If you wish your postings to be seen by
everyone you will need use a different method of posting.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article ,
Mark wrote:
One thing to bear in mind is how long can you manage without a working
boiler? WB will come out next day, and sometimes the same day if you
have a problem. Not bad for around £12 per month IIRC.

I could 'manage' without the boiler working as I have an immersion and
some fan heaters.

--
*I couldn't repair your brakes, so I made your horn louder *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

[Tabby]

On Dec 16, 10:17*am, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:
In article ,
* *Mark wrote:

One thing to bear in mind is how long can you manage without a working
boiler? *WB will come out next day, and sometimes the same day if you
have a problem. *Not bad for around 12 per month IIRC.

I could 'manage' without the boiler working as I have an immersion and
some fan heaters.

Even ovens make passable heaters. 12 a month sounds like a poor deal
to me.


NT

[Chris J Dixon]

Tabby wrote:

I wouldnt remotely agree. If you buy insurance, even if you're lucky
enough to get an insurer that does what they should, you're then
paying average maintenance costs plus advertising costs plus employee
costs plus profit margin and all sorts of other issues that simply
don't apply when you pay for your own maintenance. Mug's game.

Had a call from the AA recently, initially to get my rating for
services provided. It then became marketing for their new
breakdown insurance. Seems that if you call them out, and work
is required that needs a garage, you are covered for £500, with
£25 excess (on up to 5 occasions), at a cost of about £70 per
year.

I gave them the usual response - if you can make a profit at it,
then I am better off putting the money in a savings account. The
guy wanted me to believe that the average user got back about
£300. Perhaps what he might have said more accurately was that it
was the average of those who claimed. When I expressed the
opinion that his figures did not support a business (managed to
stop myself saying "I'm out") he seemed incapable of
understanding this.

Chris
--
Chris J Dixon Nottingham UK


Have dancing shoes, will ceilidh.

[Pete Zahut[_4_]]

harry wrote:
On Dec 15, 9:50 pm, Tabby wrote:
On Dec 15, 9:31 pm, "john lewis" wrote:

Talking to a man the other day who had spent years and years
working for british gas, but is now working elsewhere.

Do people here generally agree with what he told me?

That new boilers cost about 900 and a new main circuit board costs
about 600 so its worth getting the 'call out' type insurance, to
cover it, if it goes wrong. Of which he thinks Eion and Southern
Electric are the best to get. (he doesn't work for either of them).

I wouldnt remotely agree. If you buy insurance, even if you're lucky
enough to get an insurer that does what they should, you're then
paying average maintenance costs plus advertising costs plus employee
costs plus profit margin and all sorts of other issues that simply
don't apply when you pay for your own maintenance. Mug's game.

NT

Exactly so. I never buy insurance except for house and car.
It's like a roulette wheel. Taken over a period, the insurance will
always win financially. That's why they're there. Not for your
benefit. Most things that arise, I can fix myself anyway. But even
if you can't fix anything it's not worth insurance. Statistics gets
you in the end.

The trouble with Tabby's premise and your's is that it's not always obvious
what's gone wrong, even to trained engineers. Mate of mine has a
Worcester-Bosch boiler and pays (IIRC) about 12-quid per month for a
maintenance contract on it (they also throw in an annual service with the
price).

Under your system, boiler goes faulty, you have to take the time and effort
to do the fault-finding, find a spare part, either wait for it to be
delivered or go for it and then install it, all while SWMBO is giving you
greif because it's cold - and then you may find out that it wasn't that
particular part after all 'cos the replacement didn't fix the problem.

My mate's £12/month get him an annual service, all call-out charges, all
parts and all labour, within 24 hours of reporting the fault. Last year he
was very unlucky and had a spate of problems; first the spark generator went
then a couple of months later the gas valve was replaced. About 3 or 4
months later the PCB had to be replaced. All covered for just £12/month -
well worth it IMHO.

[Peter B]

On 16/12/2010 10:44, Tabby wrote:

One thing to bear in mind is how long can you manage without a working
boiler? WB will come out next day, and sometimes the same day if you
have a problem. Not bad for around 12 per month IIRC.

Even ovens make passable heaters. 12 a month sounds like a poor deal
to me.

Not if you've inherited a Highflow 400 with the house. About the only
things not yet replaced are the basic chassis and the cover panels...

--
Cheers, Pete

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article ,
Pete Zahut wrote:
My mate's £12/month get him an annual service, all call-out charges, all
parts and all labour, within 24 hours of reporting the fault. Last year
he was very unlucky and had a spate of problems; first the spark
generator went then a couple of months later the gas valve was
replaced. About 3 or 4 months later the PCB had to be replaced. All
covered for just £12/month - well worth it IMHO.

Until they decide they will no longer support this model. As happened to
my brother with a BG service contract. On a boiler they'd installed only 6
years earlier.

Needless to say he no longer has a BG service contract and had a decent
boiler installed - rather than the BG recommended c**p as before.

--
*If at first you don't succeed, destroy all evidence that you tried *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

[Pete Zahut[_4_]]

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Pete Zahut wrote:
My mate's £12/month get him an annual service, all call-out charges,
all parts and all labour, within 24 hours of reporting the fault.
Last year he was very unlucky and had a spate of problems; first the
spark generator went then a couple of months later the gas valve was
replaced. About 3 or 4 months later the PCB had to be replaced. All
covered for just £12/month - well worth it IMHO.

Until they decide they will no longer support this model. As happened
to my brother with a BG service contract. On a boiler they'd
installed only 6 years earlier.

Needless to say he no longer has a BG service contract and had a
decent boiler installed - rather than the BG recommended c**p as
before.

True, but then again, there isn't just BG offering these service contracts.
We have one with a local company and they're excellent but if they decide to
pull that trick, there's other places to go to.

[Andy Cap[_4_]]

On Thu, 16 Dec 2010 11:09:15 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:


Until they decide they will no longer support this model. As happened to
my brother with a BG service contract. On a boiler they'd installed only 6
years earlier.

Needless to say he no longer has a BG service contract and had a decent
boiler installed - rather than the BG recommended c**p as before.

What happens to all insurance schemes IMO, is that the work expands because they
have intentionally broken the link between the amount paid and the service
provided. Same with vets, dentists, car body repairers. Frequently a licence to
print money. with the added incentive of generating unnecessary work.

[Stuart Noble]

On 16/12/2010 11:46, Pete Zahut wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In ,
Pete wrote:
My mate's £12/month get him an annual service, all call-out charges,
all parts and all labour, within 24 hours of reporting the fault.
Last year he was very unlucky and had a spate of problems; first the
spark generator went then a couple of months later the gas valve was
replaced. About 3 or 4 months later the PCB had to be replaced. All
covered for just £12/month - well worth it IMHO.

Until they decide they will no longer support this model. As happened
to my brother with a BG service contract. On a boiler they'd
installed only 6 years earlier.

Needless to say he no longer has a BG service contract and had a
decent boiler installed - rather than the BG recommended c**p as
before.

True, but then again, there isn't just BG offering these service contracts.
We have one with a local company and they're excellent but if they decide to
pull that trick, there's other places to go to.



For me it's the peace of mind thing. I am not prepared to a) look at it
myself or b) ring a load of cowboys from yellow pages who might be able
to diagnose the fault, might be able to get the parts, and might come
when they say they will. With a manufacturer's callout you know it will
be fixed there and then, and they take the hit for any parts fitted on a
trial and error basis.
The other important thing to consider is the price of spares. My boiler
has a "special" pump, identical to a generic pump apart from one little
detail, so it's £120 instead of £40. Labour charges are probably the
least of your worries when assessing the risk.

[Mark[_30_]]

On Thu, 16 Dec 2010 03:23:12 -0800 (PST), Owain
wrote:

On Dec 16, 9:58*am, Mark wrote:
I find Worcestor-Bosch offer a decent service + insurance scheme,
although this is only for their own boilers.
One thing to bear in mind is how long can you manage without a working
boiler? *WB will come out next day, and sometimes the same day if you
have a problem. *Not bad for around 12 per month IIRC.

Yes, but I bet they don't promise to fix it next day.

I can't recall the exact guarantee but they have always fixed it next
day, even when they had to make two journeys to pick up extra parts.

I can't imagine anyone else giving such a promise.

Although I suppose they should have better parts availability if they
only cover their own stuff.
--
(\__/) M.
(='.'=) Due to the amount of spam posted via googlegroups and
(")_(") their inaction to the problem. I am blocking some articles
posted from there. If you wish your postings to be seen by
everyone you will need use a different method of posting.

[Mark.]

On 15/12/10 21:31, john lewis wrote:
Talking to a man the other day who had spent years and years working for
british gas,
Do people here generally agree with what he told me?

That new main circuit board costs about
£600

Trained by BG with their 400% mark-up ?
The average price for a boiler pcb is £80-150 with a few around the £250
mark, much less if you get a reconditioned board.

I find it staggering that there are not people out there who can repair
these circuit boards

I find it staggering you have not discovered Google.


-

[Andy Champ[_2_]]

On 16/12/2010 12:57, stuart noble wrote:

For me it's the peace of mind thing. I am not prepared to a) look at it
myself or b) ring a load of cowboys from yellow pages who might be able
to diagnose the fault, might be able to get the parts, and might come
when they say they will. With a manufacturer's callout you know it will
be fixed there and then, and they take the hit for any parts fitted on a
trial and error basis.
The other important thing to consider is the price of spares. My boiler
has a "special" pump, identical to a generic pump apart from one little
detail, so it's £120 instead of £40. Labour charges are probably the
least of your worries when assessing the risk.

Well my boiler's running on a fan that was a replacement from (let me
plug him too!) cetltd.co.uk. It's actually the second replacement, the
first one only lasted a couple of years must have been a dud this one
has lasted ages.

We've been in this house for over 15 years. Same boiler. 12 quid a
month for 15 years - that's over 2 grand. Enough in the bank so if it
does go wrong tomorrow and I _can't_ fix it I can afford to replace it.

Also, check the terms. I heard someone's small print on the radio the
other day saying they'll come out and inside 24 hours except at times of
unusual demand.

Translated they might come and look at it if they aren't too busy, but
they won't fix it unless it's easy.

I _like_ having a backup immersion heater, gas fire, electric heaters...

Andy

[geoff]

In message , Mark
writes
On Thu, 16 Dec 2010 03:23:12 -0800 (PST), Owain
wrote:

On Dec 16, 9:58*am, Mark wrote:
I find Worcestor-Bosch offer a decent service + insurance scheme,
although this is only for their own boilers.
One thing to bear in mind is how long can you manage without a working
boiler? *WB will come out next day, and sometimes the same day if you
have a problem. *Not bad for around 12 per month IIRC.

Yes, but I bet they don't promise to fix it next day.

I can't recall the exact guarantee but they have always fixed it next
day, even when they had to make two journeys to pick up extra parts.

They say "begin fixing" on the TV ad IIRC


--
geoff

[geoff]

In message , The Medway Handyman
writes
john lewis wrote:
Talking to a man the other day who had spent years and years working
for british gas, but is now working elsewhere.

Do people here generally agree with what he told me?

That new boilers cost about £900 and a new main circuit board costs
about £600 so its worth getting the 'call out' type insurance, to
cover it, if it goes wrong. Of which he thinks Eion and Southern
Electric are the best to get. (he doesn't work for either of them).

He also said if the main circuit board goes its almost work paying
out the extra £300 and get a completely new boiler. (of which he
thought Valiant and another make {which i cannot remember what he
said} are the best.
I find it staggering that there are not people out there who can
repair these circuit boards without paying £600 for one.

Paging Geoff. Would Geoff please pick up the white telephone.


Everyone seemed to be doing quite well without me

Yeah, I'm the man who repairs boiler pcbs

well, not me personally any more, but www.cetltd.com


Has the OP been going around with earplugs and a blindfold? Never
watched watchdog or any of the other programs that has shown BG up for
the rip off artists they are? I expect some of the employees actually
get drawn into the bull****


--
geoff

[Mark[_30_]]

On Thu, 16 Dec 2010 22:29:22 +0000, geoff wrote:

In message , Mark
writes
On Thu, 16 Dec 2010 03:23:12 -0800 (PST), Owain
wrote:

On Dec 16, 9:58*am, Mark wrote:
I find Worcestor-Bosch offer a decent service + insurance scheme,
although this is only for their own boilers.
One thing to bear in mind is how long can you manage without a working
boiler? *WB will come out next day, and sometimes the same day if you
have a problem. *Not bad for around 12 per month IIRC.

Yes, but I bet they don't promise to fix it next day.

I can't recall the exact guarantee but they have always fixed it next
day, even when they had to make two journeys to pick up extra parts.

They say "begin fixing" on the TV ad IIRC

Better than BG, who sent someone out within a few hours but did not
have any parts and didn't appear to know much about anything. Took
them 13 visits to replace a valve! Needless to say I stopped my
maintenance contract then.
--
(\__/) M.
(='.'=) Due to the amount of spam posted via googlegroups and
(")_(") their inaction to the problem. I am blocking some articles
posted from there. If you wish your postings to be seen by
everyone you will need use a different method of posting.

[Dave Liquorice[_2_]]

On Thu, 16 Dec 2010 21:08:28 +0000, Andy Champ wrote:

Also, check the terms. I heard someone's small print on the radio the
other day saying they'll come out and inside 24 hours except at times of
unusual demand.

Any sensible company offering such services has such a force majeure
(aka "get out") clause in the T&Cs. Why should they be liable for not
being able to fix your boiler within 48hrs when there is 3' of level
snow on the ground?

BT instigated their force majeure clause for fault repairs over quite
a bit of Scotland and the NE the other week.

I _like_ having a backup immersion heater, gas fire, electric heaters...

Any sensible household has at least one reasonable backup for each
major element of a house; light, heat, cooking and entertainment.

--
Cheers
Dave.

[John]

"Dave Liquorice" wrote in message
ll.co.uk...
On Thu, 16 Dec 2010 21:08:28 +0000, Andy Champ wrote:

Also, check the terms. I heard someone's small print on the radio the
other day saying they'll come out and inside 24 hours except at times of
unusual demand.

Any sensible company offering such services has such a force majeure
(aka "get out") clause in the T&Cs. Why should they be liable for not
being able to fix your boiler within 48hrs when there is 3' of level
snow on the ground?

BT instigated their force majeure clause for fault repairs over quite
a bit of Scotland and the NE the other week.

I _like_ having a backup immersion heater, gas fire, electric heaters...

Any sensible household has at least one reasonable backup for each
major element of a house; light, heat, cooking and entertainment.

--
Cheers
Dave.





Just a thought - based on the cost of a boiler PCB - how much would a
computer cost - or a TV?

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article ,
John wrote:
Just a thought - based on the cost of a boiler PCB - how much would a
computer cost - or a TV?

Quite.

--
*See no evil, Hear no evil, Date no evil.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

[geoff]

In message , John
writes
"Dave Liquorice" wrote in message
ill.co.uk...
On Thu, 16 Dec 2010 21:08:28 +0000, Andy Champ wrote:

Also, check the terms. I heard someone's small print on the radio the
other day saying they'll come out and inside 24 hours except at times of
unusual demand.

Any sensible company offering such services has such a force majeure
(aka "get out") clause in the T&Cs. Why should they be liable for not
being able to fix your boiler within 48hrs when there is 3' of level
snow on the ground?

BT instigated their force majeure clause for fault repairs over quite
a bit of Scotland and the NE the other week.

I _like_ having a backup immersion heater, gas fire, electric heaters...

Any sensible household has at least one reasonable backup for each
major element of a house; light, heat, cooking and entertainment.

--
Cheers
Dave.





Just a thought - based on the cost of a boiler PCB - how much would a
computer cost - or a TV?


If you have to ask, you can't afford it ...

It's not a question that would give a sensible repluy

There are a huge number of boiler pcbs with very different levels of
complexity. Complexity has little to do with the price

compare the Worcester 24i junior which is a fairly complicated pcb at
£94.95

http://www.akgas.co.uk/Worcester-PCB...JUNIOR-8748300
4840.html?gclid=CIPI4MzC9KUCFYUe4QodYUQHoA

with the potterton profile at £120.46

http://www.akgas.co.uk/Potterton-PCB...aProfile-PCB-4
07677.html

The profile contains three transistors

--
geoff

[Mark]

john lewis wrote:


"Huge" wrote in message

http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html

its like you go into a pub and there is about thirty sweaty old salts,
plumbers, electricians and various top experts with umpteen years of
experience; and you say sorry lads to break up the conversation about
naked women. But i know s*d all about plumbing (but have a degree in
fission and a docturate in psychology) and could you give your opinion
about someone elses opionion about boilers.


But no degree or docturate? in common sense or social skills i see.

-