It was widely reported in the press yesterday that violent and property
crimes are at a 30 year low nationwide.

So how come none of the media pundits and talking heads drew the obvious
connection between a plunging crime rate and the growth of firearm
ownership, including most states now licensing law abiding citizens to carry
concealed.

I guarantee you they would have been beating the drum if the numbers had
been the otherway!

Red


-----------------------------------------------------------
Learn about rec.guns at http://www.recguns.com
-----------------------------------------------------------

--
The problem with defending the purity of the English language is that
English is about as pure as a cribhouse whore. We don't just borrow words;
on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat
them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary.
--James D. Nicoll

Much as I hate to argue with you, Gunner, I'm afraid gun ownership has
little to do with it. It's pure demographics. There's been a dip in the
17-27 male population which contributes most of the crimes (also most of
the innovations, same drive just different goals) so crime is down.
There's a big cohort of boys in the sub-teen group so crime will surge
in another 5-10 years and everybody will wring their hands and wonder
why. Testosterone poisoning is the answer, but people hate to admit that
most behavior isn't logically driven.

Mac

It was widely reported in the press yesterday that violent and property
crimes are at a 30 year low nationwide.

Only because police departments have been ordered
to loose 50% of crime reports submitted by citizens,
when the other 50% of citizens get fed up and don't
bother to report crime anymore the new crime rate
will be 0. The vote for me crowd will tout that they have
saved us all and will demand the get re-elected and
since there is no more crime police officers will be
used to enforce traffic laws designed for our own saftey,
of course this will solve the budget crissis now
plauging many large cities.

The new police doctrine will be:

We serve and collect.

Best Regards
Tom.

On 28 Aug 2003 04:29:16 GMT, (AZOTIC) wrote:

It was widely reported in the press yesterday that violent and property
crimes are at a 30 year low nationwide.

Only because police departments have been ordered
to loose 50% of crime reports submitted by citizens,
when the other 50% of citizens get fed up and don't
bother to report crime anymore the new crime rate
will be 0. The vote for me crowd will tout that they have
saved us all and will demand the get re-elected and
since there is no more crime police officers will be
used to enforce traffic laws designed for our own saftey,
of course this will solve the budget crissis now
plauging many large cities.

The new police doctrine will be:

We serve and collect.

Best Regards
Tom.

Of course you have cites for this rubbish?
--
The problem with defending the purity of the English language is that
English is about as pure as a cribhouse whore. We don't just borrow words;
on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat
them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary.
--James D. Nicoll

"Gunner" wrote in message
...
We serve and collect.

Of course you have cites for this rubbish?

I think it's called -- Humor.

Tim

--
In the immortal words of Ned Flanders: "No foot longs!"
Website @ http://webpages.charter.net/dawill/tmoranwms

On Thu, 28 Aug 2003 06:13:12 GMT, Gunner
pixelated:

On 28 Aug 2003 04:29:16 GMT, (AZOTIC) wrote:

It was widely reported in the press yesterday that violent and property
crimes are at a 30 year low nationwide.

Only because police departments have been ordered
to loose 50% of crime reports submitted by citizens,
when the other 50% of citizens get fed up and don't
bother to report crime anymore the new crime rate
will be 0. The vote for me crowd will tout that they have
saved us all and will demand the get re-elected and
since there is no more crime police officers will be
used to enforce traffic laws designed for our own saftey,
of course this will solve the budget crissis now
plauging many large cities.

The new police doctrine will be:

We serve and collect.

Correction: "We serve TO collect."

Of course you have cites for this rubbish?

Who needs 'em? Ask any cop. The last few I asked (as I
was being actively discouraged from filing a complaint)
said that a) the perp probably wouldn't be caught; b)
the crime wasn't that important; c) and that the paperwork
involved took them off their beat too long.

The San Diego County Sheriff's Department caught the last 2
guys who tried to break into my home. I was home the last
time and the drunk was fumbling at the back door, about to
break in. The time before that the guy cut himself so badly
after having to go back out the broken window he came in
that he left a trail. (He couldn't get out a door due to
double-keyed deadbolts on all 3 doors.) This one went to
trial and I was called in. While I was hanging around in the
courtroom hallways [I wasn't allowed into the courtroom until
my case came up. I spent 2 half-days in the halls before the
guy confessed without my testimony (I wasn't home at the time
so I never did figure that one out.)] I listened closely to
the lamentation of local city and county cops. It was then that
I realized that the movies had lied to me. =:0 All cops are NOT
on a "life's mission", they're just 9 to 5ers and our troubles
don't mean nearly as much to them as we were led to believe by
our parents and the old movies. I lost all respect for our
judicial system those 2 days, and lost some respect for the cops.
They're just like us. If they are there when you call for help,
they'll probably respond.

So, next time you're in the range, ask a cop if he feels that
his actions have been in any way hampered (either by himself or
his superiors) in regards to crime reporting. I'll give you odds
that 90% feel they have been.

Regarding the cites, they're right there with the Whitewater
papers, Whitehouse bedroom rental agreements, Iraq's WMDs, and
OJ's confession.

Perhaps the hawks are right. A suitable application of copper
jacketed lead will swiftly solve the problem. (back on topic

- - -
Brain cells come and brain cells go, but fat cells live forever.
---
http://diversify.com Website Application Programming for YOU!

On 28 Aug 2003 20:13:08 GMT, (AZOTIC) wrote:

Who needs 'em? Ask any cop. The last few I asked (as I
was being actively discouraged from filing a complaint)
said that a) the perp probably wouldn't be caught; b)
the crime wasn't that important; c) and that the paperwork
involved took them off their beat too long.

In addition the cops are ordered to under report the
value of thefts, I had a burgulary about 2 years ago
and the cops would not send out a officer to take a
report, they took the info over the phone and mailed
us a copy of thier report. They reported the value of the
stolen items as under $300.00 when i told the cop over
the phone the value was $1500.00, i went down to the
police station and had them redo the report with the
correct numbers and those wonderfull servents of
the people treated me like a criminal for making them
do the report over correctley. The only time we see any cops on our block is
when the parking ban is enforced at
rush hour.

Best Regards
Tom.

So, other than personal anecdotes, you have no facts to back up your
statement?

Gunner
G
--
The problem with defending the purity of the English language is that
English is about as pure as a cribhouse whore. We don't just borrow words;
on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat
them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary.
--James D. Nicoll

On Fri, 29 Aug 2003 02:32:17 GMT, Gunner
pixelated:

So, other than personal anecdotes, you have no facts to back up your
statement?

The personal experience of two people doesn't cut it with
you, eh, Gunner? Do you truly feel that crime is as low
as it is reported, that the cops (or their supervisors, etc)
are not doing any of this lowballing/cheating/fibbing?

Whatever. (but we know better)

P.S: After sobering up in '85, I actually like the cops now.
I just no longer respect them as much due to their now
political (and uncaring) nature.

- - -
Brain cells come and brain cells go, but fat cells live forever.
---
http://diversify.com Website Application Programming for YOU!

So, other than personal anecdotes, you have no facts to back up your
statement?

Gunner
G

Just the two police reports for the same crime,
saved them for the day the detective investigating
the case came by to return my tools when he
recovered them.G

Best Regards
Tom.

On Fri, 29 Aug 2003 05:26:57 GMT, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Fri, 29 Aug 2003 02:32:17 GMT, Gunner
pixelated:

So, other than personal anecdotes, you have no facts to back up your
statement?

The personal experience of two people doesn't cut it with
you, eh, Gunner? Do you truly feel that crime is as low
as it is reported, that the cops (or their supervisors, etc)
are not doing any of this lowballing/cheating/fibbing?

Whatever. (but we know better)

P.S: After sobering up in '85, I actually like the cops now.
I just no longer respect them as much due to their now
political (and uncaring) nature.

Actually it may show some trend in your area, maybe. But no, its not
good enough for me. I was a Deputy for several years in the 70s, and I
can tell you that such report laziness has always been the norm. And
that would have been reflected in the stats for every year. So its
simply part of the normal stats as a common variable. Its worse in
some places than others, even within departments.

I stopped being a Peace Officer, when the drive to force cops into
being Law Enforcement Officers was starting. And Im sure you have run
into both types.
Cops now tend to be rather insular 9-5ers, with a bad attitude they
developed on the job, and its far worse in the young guys, whom are
encouraged by most departments to be Barney Badass, where they demand
respect, rather than earn it. Chuckle..a trend today, coupled with the
fairly rare but highly publisized police corruption, and the
militarization of the police, has given good cause for few people to
respect, trust or even like them, leading further to their alienation
from the public.

Police have always by nature been political. They are hired by
political agencies run by political hacks (in many cases), and paid by
political corporations (cities and country governments tend to be
corporations) and are blown hither and yon by the various political
whims of their higher ups. Hell, in days gone by, the politics was far
far worse in most places.

As to their "caring".. most do. But being cynical and having
developed a bad attitude by dealing with so many scrotes daily, they
tend to reserve their "careing" for only the worst cases. And lets be
honest, we dont pay them to operate on an emotional level, but to
simply enforce the laws. Peace officers tend to care, the other type
dont. Small towns tend to have more Peace officers, assuming the city
council isnt totally revenue oriented..sigh. Big cities tend to have a
hell of a lot of cowboys and Law Enforcement types, as they are often
stretched pretty thin, and simply dont have the time to spend
resolving a situation, or even "caring". "Tag em an Bag em, Hookem and
bookem" and back out on the street.

Always keep in mind, there are two kinds of people in a cops life.
Cops and their families, and The Bad Guys, with a very nebulous layer
in between called the Citizens.

Personally, having been around the law enforcement community for a
very long time, and having a few friends in the business, I can say, I
dont trust the vast majority of them, and have little personal respect
for the majority. The exceptions are notable, and if I wasnt friends
with the various individuals, am not sure Id trust them either.
Shrug..

But ..Its a dirty job and someone has to do it. And as long as the
public will allow their public servants to misbehave...they get the
cops they deserve.

Gunner

"The people who believe that, as a result of industrial development, life is about to become a hell,
or may be one already, are guilty, at least, of sloppy pronouncements.
On page 8 of Earth in the Balance, Al Gore claims that his study of the arms race gave him
"a deeper appreciation for the most horrifying fact in all our lives:
civilization is now capable of destroying itself."

In the first place, the most horrifying fact in many of our lives is that
our ex-spouse has gotten ahold of our ATM card.
And civilization has always been able to destroy itself. The Greeks of ancient Athens,
who had a civilization remarkable for lack of technological progress
during its period of greatest knowledge and power, managed to destroy themselves just fine."
-- P.J. O'Rourke, All the trouble in the world. The lighter side of famine, pestilence, destruction and death.

On Fri, 29 Aug 2003 17:27:01 GMT, Gunner wrote:
On Fri, 29 Aug 2003 05:26:57 GMT, Larry Jaques
wrote:
On Fri, 29 Aug 2003 02:32:17 GMT, Gunner
pixelated:

So, other than personal anecdotes, you have no facts to back up your
statement?

The personal experience of two people doesn't cut it with
you, eh, Gunner? Do you truly feel that crime is as low
as it is reported, that the cops (or their supervisors, etc)
are not doing any of this lowballing/cheating/fibbing?

Whatever. (but we know better)

Actually it may show some trend in your area, maybe. But no, its not
good enough for me. I was a Deputy for several years in the 70s, and I
can tell you that such report laziness has always been the norm. And
that would have been reflected in the stats for every year. So its
simply part of the normal stats as a common variable. Its worse in
some places than others, even within departments.

Actually, it is more than laziness. In recent weeks, it has been reported
that the police departments of Atlanta, New Orleans, Houston, and
Dallas, among others, have been caught by an FBI audit deliberately
cooking the books to make crime stats look better than they actually are.

Always keep in mind, there are two kinds of people in a cops life.
Cops and their families, and The Bad Guys, with a very nebulous layer
in between called the Citizens.

Another observation which too often has a grain of truth is that the only
difference between the police and the criminals is that the police carry
a badge. As example, Atlanta's "cop of the year" award winner was just
busted in an FBI sting for running a murder for hire gang. The difference
between ordinary thugs and police is that police are supposed to be *our*
thugs, but they don't always seem to understand that subtle distinction.

Gary

On Fri, 29 Aug 2003 17:27:01 GMT, Gunner
pixelated:

But ..Its a dirty job and someone has to do it. And as long as the
public will allow their public servants to misbehave...they get the
cops they deserve.

I guess that goes double for us with our congresscritters, huh?
Sigh...


-- P.J. O'Rourke, All the trouble in the world. The lighter side of famine, pestilence, destruction and death.

I have a bid in to read a copy of that from my local library
one of these days soon. I love ironic humor.

- - -
Brain cells come and brain cells go, but fat cells live forever.
---
http://diversify.com Website Application Programming for YOU!

Actually, it is more than laziness. In recent weeks, it has been reported that
the police departments of Atlanta, New Orleans, Houston, and Dallas, among
others, have been caught by an FBI audit deliberately cooking the books to make
crime stats look better than they actually are

The same holds true in chicago, the orders come from the top to minimize crime
reports and give the illusion of a
low crime safe city. The purpose of cooking the books is to
protect the convention and tourism trade and the tax
dollars they generate. As reported on fox news this spring in chicago people
who report crime are punished by the
police for thier efforts in trying to be good citizens.
The story aired in segments over several days as a
walter jacobson perspective in april or may.

Best Regards
Tom.

On Fri, 29 Aug 2003 21:43:07 GMT, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Fri, 29 Aug 2003 17:27:01 GMT, Gunner
pixelated:

But ..Its a dirty job and someone has to do it. And as long as the
public will allow their public servants to misbehave...they get the
cops they deserve.

I guess that goes double for us with our congresscritters, huh?
Sigh...


-- P.J. O'Rourke, All the trouble in the world. The lighter side of famine, pestilence, destruction and death.

I have a bid in to read a copy of that from my local library
one of these days soon. I love ironic humor.

- - -
Brain cells come and brain cells go, but fat cells live forever.
---
http://diversify.com Website Application Programming for YOU!

You really need to read his Parliment of Whores also.

Gunner

"The people who believe that, as a result of industrial development, life is about to become a hell,
or may be one already, are guilty, at least, of sloppy pronouncements.
On page 8 of Earth in the Balance, Al Gore claims that his study of the arms race gave him
"a deeper appreciation for the most horrifying fact in all our lives:
civilization is now capable of destroying itself."

In the first place, the most horrifying fact in many of our lives is that
our ex-spouse has gotten ahold of our ATM card.
And civilization has always been able to destroy itself. The Greeks of ancient Athens,
who had a civilization remarkable for lack of technological progress
during its period of greatest knowledge and power, managed to destroy themselves just fine."
-- P.J. O'Rourke, All the trouble in the world. The lighter side of famine, pestilence, destruction and death.

Sorry for the repost to AMC ... it's one of Gunner's crossposts of
someone else's post again I noted ... so here's back at him for
a change G.

In article , Gunner
writes:

#It was widely reported in the press yesterday that violent and property
#crimes are at a 30 year low nationwide.
#
#So how come none of the media pundits and talking heads drew the obvious
#connection between a plunging crime rate and the growth of firearm
#ownership, including most states now licensing law abiding citizens to carry
#concealed.

Probably because murder by firearms rates went up quite a bit.

Most of the rest went down but NOT that. *Exactly* as anyone sane
would expect when more people in the US have more guns.
--
Cliff Huprich

-----------------------------------------------------------
Learn about rec.guns at http://www.recguns.com
-----------------------------------------------------------

Gunner wrote in message . ..


Personally, having been around the law enforcement community for a
very long time, and having a few friends in the business, I can say, I
dont trust the vast majority of them, and have little personal respect
for the majority. The exceptions are notable, and if I wasnt friends
with the various individuals, am not sure Id trust them either.
Shrug..

But ..Its a dirty job and someone has to do it. And as long as the
public will allow their public servants to misbehave...they get the
cops they deserve.



Kinda odd, finding myself agreeing with you. Musta been the
chicken feet I had for lunch ...

"Excitable Boy" wrote in message
om...
Gunner wrote in message
. ..


Personally, having been around the law enforcement community for a
very long time, and having a few friends in the business, I can say, I
dont trust the vast majority of them, and have little personal respect
for the majority. The exceptions are notable, and if I wasnt friends
with the various individuals, am not sure Id trust them either.
Shrug..

But ..Its a dirty job and someone has to do it. And as long as the
public will allow their public servants to misbehave...they get the
cops they deserve.



Kinda odd, finding myself agreeing with you. Musta been the
chicken feet I had for lunch ...


Welcome back! :0)

--Len

On 2 Sep 2003 02:42:18 -0700, (Excitable Boy) wrote:

Gunner wrote in message . ..


Personally, having been around the law enforcement community for a
very long time, and having a few friends in the business, I can say, I
dont trust the vast majority of them, and have little personal respect
for the majority. The exceptions are notable, and if I wasnt friends
with the various individuals, am not sure Id trust them either.
Shrug..

But ..Its a dirty job and someone has to do it. And as long as the
public will allow their public servants to misbehave...they get the
cops they deserve.



Kinda odd, finding myself agreeing with you. Musta been the
chicken feet I had for lunch ...

Hey, we both agree on somethings G We both like Gorton Mills.
Which reminds me, I scrounged a VERY nice 016-A Jig Mill. Got pics if
you would like to see one. They are supposed to be fairly uncommon.

Gunner

"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling
which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight,
nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being
free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."
- John Stewart Mill

(Cliff Huprich) wrote in message ...
Sorry for the repost to AMC ... it's one of Gunner's crossposts of
someone else's post again I noted ... so here's back at him for
a change G.

In article , Gunner
writes:

#It was widely reported in the press yesterday that violent and property
#crimes are at a 30 year low nationwide.
#
#So how come none of the media pundits and talking heads drew the obvious
#connection between a plunging crime rate and the growth of firearm
#ownership, including most states now licensing law abiding citizens to carry
#concealed.

Probably because murder by firearms rates went up quite a bit.

Most of the rest went down but NOT that. *Exactly* as anyone sane
would expect when more people in the US have more guns.

Note to folks:
I crossposted this to rec.guns which seems to be moderated. It took
about a week for the moderators to approve it.

IF you want anyone to soon see any responses/replies to YOUR
posts don't crosspost to rec.guns. Seems like the moderated groups must first
approve a post before anyone else sees it.

If you crosspost to multiple moderated groups ... shudder.

BTW, THIS post does NOT go to rec.guns.
--
Cliff Huprich

On 2 Sep 2003 15:11:18 -0700, (Cliff Huprich) wrote:

(Cliff Huprich) wrote in message ...
snip
Probably because murder by firearms rates went up quite a bit.

Most of the rest went down but NOT that. *Exactly* as anyone sane
would expect when more people in the US have more guns.

Not exactly. From a recent post to talk.politics.guns: (You can check
these numbers from the CDC link at http://www.tincher.to/deaths.htm
although I have no reason to doubt them)

------------------------------

Message-ID:
From: Peter McMullen
Subject: Firearms preferred choice to commit robberies and murders
Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2003 06:56:45 GMT

OK, Lets tighten up the numbers even further:

the U.S. population in 1973 was 212 Million

http://www.factmonster.com/year/1973.html

the U.S. population in 2000 was 275 Million

http://www.photius.com/wfb2000/count...es_people.html

so the population increase in that period was actually
roughly 30%

according to the BATF there are about 230 million firearms
currently

firearms increased 73% from '73 to '92, from 122 million to
222 million, handguns rose 110%

http://teapot.usask.ca/cdn-firearms/Polsby/gcsumm.html

http://www.jpfo.org/data-docs.htm

according to the BATF there are about 230 million firearms
in the U.S. or at least an 89% increase since '73

So conservatively the population increased only 30% while
the number of firearms at least 89%, and handguns probably
accounting for most of the increase from 92 to 00 (due to
so-called AW bans and handguns being better suited to most
self defense, along with a probable decrease in hunting
rifle sales) yet:

total firearms crimes per 100k population 1973 = 171
total firearms crimes per 100k population 2000 = 121

171 - 171x = 121
171x = 50
x = 50/171 or a roughly 30% reduction

total murders per 100k w/ firearms 1973 = 6.2
total murders per 100k w/ firearms 2000 = 3.6

same story

The statistical trends actually correlate with tougher
criminal sentences, anti-gang legislation and enforcement,
and pro CCW legislation, which began in the early '90's.

-----------------------------

Peter McMullen didn't mention that crack cocaine started going out of
style in 1990. Gun control lobbyists always count nineteen-year-old
drug dealers as children because so darned many of them shoot each
other, and more child gun deaths means more support for gun control.

Note to folks:
I crossposted this to rec.guns which seems to be moderated. It took
about a week for the moderators to approve it.

IF you want anyone to soon see any responses/replies to YOUR
posts don't crosspost to rec.guns. Seems like the moderated groups must first
approve a post before anyone else sees it.

If you crosspost to multiple moderated groups ... shudder.

Yep, you've figured out how moderated groups work.

BTW, THIS post does NOT go to rec.guns.

You made a mistake, admitted it, and then learned from it. I'm sorry,
but you are over-qualified to be a gun control lobbyist. Have you
considered joining the NRA?

--
"I can't describe how I felt when I picked up that rifle, loaded
it into my little car and drove home. It seemed so incredibly
strange: Sarah Brady, of all people, packing heat."
- Sarah Brady, explaining how her son avoided the Brady criminal
background check by getting her to buy the sniper rifle for him.
Source: New York Daily News, Mar. 21, 2002, "Gun control advocate
may have violated gun laws"

Cliff Huprich wrote:

(Cliff Huprich) wrote in message ...
Sorry for the repost to AMC ... it's one of Gunner's crossposts of
someone else's post again I noted ... so here's back at him for
a change G.

In article , Gunner
writes:

#It was widely reported in the press yesterday that violent and property
#crimes are at a 30 year low nationwide.
#
#So how come none of the media pundits and talking heads drew the obvious
#connection between a plunging crime rate and the growth of firearm
#ownership, including most states now licensing law abiding citizens to carry
#concealed.

Probably because murder by firearms rates went up quite a bit.

Most of the rest went down but NOT that. *Exactly* as anyone sane
would expect when more people in the US have more guns.

Note to folks:
I crossposted this to rec.guns which seems to be moderated. It took
about a week for the moderators to approve it.

Things slow down some when the moderator is in the hospital. May or may
not have affected your posting.


IF you want anyone to soon see any responses/replies to YOUR
posts don't crosspost to rec.guns. Seems like the moderated groups must first
approve a post before anyone else sees it.

If you crosspost to multiple moderated groups ... shudder.

BTW, THIS post does NOT go to rec.guns.
--
Cliff Huprich

Rex Tincher wrote in message . ..
On 2 Sep 2003 15:11:18 -0700, (Cliff Huprich) wrote:

(Cliff Huprich) wrote in message ...
snip
Probably because murder by firearms rates went up quite a bit.

Most of the rest went down but NOT that. *Exactly* as anyone sane
would expect when more people in the US have more guns.

Not exactly. From a recent post to talk.politics.guns: (You can check
these numbers from the CDC link at http://www.tincher.to/deaths.htm
although I have no reason to doubt them)

snip

That's quite old data and unrelated. (Actually,
only the numbers from 2 fairly recent years seem available
using that link.)
Note what the post said to begin with:

[
In article , Gunner
writes:

#It was widely reported in the press yesterday that violent and property
#crimes are at a 30 year low nationwide.
#
#So how come none of the media pundits and talking heads drew the obvious
#connection between a plunging crime rate and the growth of firearm
#ownership, including most states now licensing law abiding citizens to carry
#concealed.
]

A) "Violent and property crime" stats for the last year are down.
B) We blame the medis for not reporting that this is due to all the
new guns on the streets.

In point of fact, the same report than mentioned the decline in
*reported* "violent & property" crimes also mentioned that gun
deaths were up quite a bit.

I do wonder if the FBI's recent refusal to deal with things like bank
robberies where nobody was killed enters into it. It's now just a local
matter it seems ... too busy looking for people to send to Cuba.
They cannot fudge the death stats at the CDC so easily it seems.
--
Cliff Huprich