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Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work. |
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OT- Crime at a 30 year low
It was widely reported in the press yesterday that violent and property crimes are at a 30 year low nationwide. So how come none of the media pundits and talking heads drew the obvious connection between a plunging crime rate and the growth of firearm ownership, including most states now licensing law abiding citizens to carry concealed. I guarantee you they would have been beating the drum if the numbers had been the otherway! Red ----------------------------------------------------------- Learn about rec.guns at http://www.recguns.com ----------------------------------------------------------- -- The problem with defending the purity of the English language is that English is about as pure as a cribhouse whore. We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary. --James D. Nicoll |
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OT- Crime at a 30 year low
Much as I hate to argue with you, Gunner, I'm afraid gun ownership has
little to do with it. It's pure demographics. There's been a dip in the 17-27 male population which contributes most of the crimes (also most of the innovations, same drive just different goals) so crime is down. There's a big cohort of boys in the sub-teen group so crime will surge in another 5-10 years and everybody will wring their hands and wonder why. Testosterone poisoning is the answer, but people hate to admit that most behavior isn't logically driven. Mac |
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OT- Crime at a 30 year low
It was widely reported in the press yesterday that violent and property
crimes are at a 30 year low nationwide. Only because police departments have been ordered to loose 50% of crime reports submitted by citizens, when the other 50% of citizens get fed up and don't bother to report crime anymore the new crime rate will be 0. The vote for me crowd will tout that they have saved us all and will demand the get re-elected and since there is no more crime police officers will be used to enforce traffic laws designed for our own saftey, of course this will solve the budget crissis now plauging many large cities. The new police doctrine will be: We serve and collect. Best Regards Tom. |
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OT- Crime at a 30 year low
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OT- Crime at a 30 year low
"Gunner" wrote in message
... We serve and collect. Of course you have cites for this rubbish? I think it's called -- Humor. Tim -- In the immortal words of Ned Flanders: "No foot longs!" Website @ http://webpages.charter.net/dawill/tmoranwms |
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OT- Crime at a 30 year low
On Thu, 28 Aug 2003 06:13:12 GMT, Gunner
pixelated: On 28 Aug 2003 04:29:16 GMT, (AZOTIC) wrote: It was widely reported in the press yesterday that violent and property crimes are at a 30 year low nationwide. Only because police departments have been ordered to loose 50% of crime reports submitted by citizens, when the other 50% of citizens get fed up and don't bother to report crime anymore the new crime rate will be 0. The vote for me crowd will tout that they have saved us all and will demand the get re-elected and since there is no more crime police officers will be used to enforce traffic laws designed for our own saftey, of course this will solve the budget crissis now plauging many large cities. The new police doctrine will be: We serve and collect. Correction: "We serve TO collect." Of course you have cites for this rubbish? Who needs 'em? Ask any cop. The last few I asked (as I was being actively discouraged from filing a complaint) said that a) the perp probably wouldn't be caught; b) the crime wasn't that important; c) and that the paperwork involved took them off their beat too long. The San Diego County Sheriff's Department caught the last 2 guys who tried to break into my home. I was home the last time and the drunk was fumbling at the back door, about to break in. The time before that the guy cut himself so badly after having to go back out the broken window he came in that he left a trail. (He couldn't get out a door due to double-keyed deadbolts on all 3 doors.) This one went to trial and I was called in. While I was hanging around in the courtroom hallways [I wasn't allowed into the courtroom until my case came up. I spent 2 half-days in the halls before the guy confessed without my testimony (I wasn't home at the time so I never did figure that one out.)] I listened closely to the lamentation of local city and county cops. It was then that I realized that the movies had lied to me. =:0 All cops are NOT on a "life's mission", they're just 9 to 5ers and our troubles don't mean nearly as much to them as we were led to believe by our parents and the old movies. I lost all respect for our judicial system those 2 days, and lost some respect for the cops. They're just like us. If they are there when you call for help, they'll probably respond. So, next time you're in the range, ask a cop if he feels that his actions have been in any way hampered (either by himself or his superiors) in regards to crime reporting. I'll give you odds that 90% feel they have been. Regarding the cites, they're right there with the Whitewater papers, Whitehouse bedroom rental agreements, Iraq's WMDs, and OJ's confession. Perhaps the hawks are right. A suitable application of copper jacketed lead will swiftly solve the problem. (back on topic - - - Brain cells come and brain cells go, but fat cells live forever. --- http://diversify.com Website Application Programming for YOU! |
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OT- Crime at a 30 year low
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OT- Crime at a 30 year low
On Fri, 29 Aug 2003 02:32:17 GMT, Gunner
pixelated: So, other than personal anecdotes, you have no facts to back up your statement? The personal experience of two people doesn't cut it with you, eh, Gunner? Do you truly feel that crime is as low as it is reported, that the cops (or their supervisors, etc) are not doing any of this lowballing/cheating/fibbing? Whatever. (but we know better) P.S: After sobering up in '85, I actually like the cops now. I just no longer respect them as much due to their now political (and uncaring) nature. - - - Brain cells come and brain cells go, but fat cells live forever. --- http://diversify.com Website Application Programming for YOU! |
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OT- Crime at a 30 year low
So, other than personal anecdotes, you have no facts to back up your
statement? Gunner G Just the two police reports for the same crime, saved them for the day the detective investigating the case came by to return my tools when he recovered them.G Best Regards Tom. |
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OT- Crime at a 30 year low
On Fri, 29 Aug 2003 05:26:57 GMT, Larry Jaques
wrote: On Fri, 29 Aug 2003 02:32:17 GMT, Gunner pixelated: So, other than personal anecdotes, you have no facts to back up your statement? The personal experience of two people doesn't cut it with you, eh, Gunner? Do you truly feel that crime is as low as it is reported, that the cops (or their supervisors, etc) are not doing any of this lowballing/cheating/fibbing? Whatever. (but we know better) P.S: After sobering up in '85, I actually like the cops now. I just no longer respect them as much due to their now political (and uncaring) nature. Actually it may show some trend in your area, maybe. But no, its not good enough for me. I was a Deputy for several years in the 70s, and I can tell you that such report laziness has always been the norm. And that would have been reflected in the stats for every year. So its simply part of the normal stats as a common variable. Its worse in some places than others, even within departments. I stopped being a Peace Officer, when the drive to force cops into being Law Enforcement Officers was starting. And Im sure you have run into both types. Cops now tend to be rather insular 9-5ers, with a bad attitude they developed on the job, and its far worse in the young guys, whom are encouraged by most departments to be Barney Badass, where they demand respect, rather than earn it. Chuckle..a trend today, coupled with the fairly rare but highly publisized police corruption, and the militarization of the police, has given good cause for few people to respect, trust or even like them, leading further to their alienation from the public. Police have always by nature been political. They are hired by political agencies run by political hacks (in many cases), and paid by political corporations (cities and country governments tend to be corporations) and are blown hither and yon by the various political whims of their higher ups. Hell, in days gone by, the politics was far far worse in most places. As to their "caring".. most do. But being cynical and having developed a bad attitude by dealing with so many scrotes daily, they tend to reserve their "careing" for only the worst cases. And lets be honest, we dont pay them to operate on an emotional level, but to simply enforce the laws. Peace officers tend to care, the other type dont. Small towns tend to have more Peace officers, assuming the city council isnt totally revenue oriented..sigh. Big cities tend to have a hell of a lot of cowboys and Law Enforcement types, as they are often stretched pretty thin, and simply dont have the time to spend resolving a situation, or even "caring". "Tag em an Bag em, Hookem and bookem" and back out on the street. Always keep in mind, there are two kinds of people in a cops life. Cops and their families, and The Bad Guys, with a very nebulous layer in between called the Citizens. Personally, having been around the law enforcement community for a very long time, and having a few friends in the business, I can say, I dont trust the vast majority of them, and have little personal respect for the majority. The exceptions are notable, and if I wasnt friends with the various individuals, am not sure Id trust them either. Shrug.. But ..Its a dirty job and someone has to do it. And as long as the public will allow their public servants to misbehave...they get the cops they deserve. Gunner "The people who believe that, as a result of industrial development, life is about to become a hell, or may be one already, are guilty, at least, of sloppy pronouncements. On page 8 of Earth in the Balance, Al Gore claims that his study of the arms race gave him "a deeper appreciation for the most horrifying fact in all our lives: civilization is now capable of destroying itself." In the first place, the most horrifying fact in many of our lives is that our ex-spouse has gotten ahold of our ATM card. And civilization has always been able to destroy itself. The Greeks of ancient Athens, who had a civilization remarkable for lack of technological progress during its period of greatest knowledge and power, managed to destroy themselves just fine." -- P.J. O'Rourke, All the trouble in the world. The lighter side of famine, pestilence, destruction and death. |
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OT- Crime at a 30 year low
On Fri, 29 Aug 2003 17:27:01 GMT, Gunner wrote:
On Fri, 29 Aug 2003 05:26:57 GMT, Larry Jaques wrote: On Fri, 29 Aug 2003 02:32:17 GMT, Gunner pixelated: So, other than personal anecdotes, you have no facts to back up your statement? The personal experience of two people doesn't cut it with you, eh, Gunner? Do you truly feel that crime is as low as it is reported, that the cops (or their supervisors, etc) are not doing any of this lowballing/cheating/fibbing? Whatever. (but we know better) Actually it may show some trend in your area, maybe. But no, its not good enough for me. I was a Deputy for several years in the 70s, and I can tell you that such report laziness has always been the norm. And that would have been reflected in the stats for every year. So its simply part of the normal stats as a common variable. Its worse in some places than others, even within departments. Actually, it is more than laziness. In recent weeks, it has been reported that the police departments of Atlanta, New Orleans, Houston, and Dallas, among others, have been caught by an FBI audit deliberately cooking the books to make crime stats look better than they actually are. Always keep in mind, there are two kinds of people in a cops life. Cops and their families, and The Bad Guys, with a very nebulous layer in between called the Citizens. Another observation which too often has a grain of truth is that the only difference between the police and the criminals is that the police carry a badge. As example, Atlanta's "cop of the year" award winner was just busted in an FBI sting for running a murder for hire gang. The difference between ordinary thugs and police is that police are supposed to be *our* thugs, but they don't always seem to understand that subtle distinction. Gary |
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OT- Crime at a 30 year low
On Fri, 29 Aug 2003 17:27:01 GMT, Gunner
pixelated: But ..Its a dirty job and someone has to do it. And as long as the public will allow their public servants to misbehave...they get the cops they deserve. I guess that goes double for us with our congresscritters, huh? Sigh... -- P.J. O'Rourke, All the trouble in the world. The lighter side of famine, pestilence, destruction and death. I have a bid in to read a copy of that from my local library one of these days soon. I love ironic humor. - - - Brain cells come and brain cells go, but fat cells live forever. --- http://diversify.com Website Application Programming for YOU! |
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OT- Crime at a 30 year low
Actually, it is more than laziness. In recent weeks, it has been reported that
the police departments of Atlanta, New Orleans, Houston, and Dallas, among others, have been caught by an FBI audit deliberately cooking the books to make crime stats look better than they actually are The same holds true in chicago, the orders come from the top to minimize crime reports and give the illusion of a low crime safe city. The purpose of cooking the books is to protect the convention and tourism trade and the tax dollars they generate. As reported on fox news this spring in chicago people who report crime are punished by the police for thier efforts in trying to be good citizens. The story aired in segments over several days as a walter jacobson perspective in april or may. Best Regards Tom. |
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OT- Crime at a 30 year low
On Fri, 29 Aug 2003 21:43:07 GMT, Larry Jaques
wrote: On Fri, 29 Aug 2003 17:27:01 GMT, Gunner pixelated: But ..Its a dirty job and someone has to do it. And as long as the public will allow their public servants to misbehave...they get the cops they deserve. I guess that goes double for us with our congresscritters, huh? Sigh... -- P.J. O'Rourke, All the trouble in the world. The lighter side of famine, pestilence, destruction and death. I have a bid in to read a copy of that from my local library one of these days soon. I love ironic humor. - - - Brain cells come and brain cells go, but fat cells live forever. --- http://diversify.com Website Application Programming for YOU! You really need to read his Parliment of Whores also. Gunner "The people who believe that, as a result of industrial development, life is about to become a hell, or may be one already, are guilty, at least, of sloppy pronouncements. On page 8 of Earth in the Balance, Al Gore claims that his study of the arms race gave him "a deeper appreciation for the most horrifying fact in all our lives: civilization is now capable of destroying itself." In the first place, the most horrifying fact in many of our lives is that our ex-spouse has gotten ahold of our ATM card. And civilization has always been able to destroy itself. The Greeks of ancient Athens, who had a civilization remarkable for lack of technological progress during its period of greatest knowledge and power, managed to destroy themselves just fine." -- P.J. O'Rourke, All the trouble in the world. The lighter side of famine, pestilence, destruction and death. |
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OT- Crime at a 30 year low
Sorry for the repost to AMC ... it's one of Gunner's crossposts of
someone else's post again I noted ... so here's back at him for a change G. In article , Gunner writes: #It was widely reported in the press yesterday that violent and property #crimes are at a 30 year low nationwide. # #So how come none of the media pundits and talking heads drew the obvious #connection between a plunging crime rate and the growth of firearm #ownership, including most states now licensing law abiding citizens to carry #concealed. Probably because murder by firearms rates went up quite a bit. Most of the rest went down but NOT that. *Exactly* as anyone sane would expect when more people in the US have more guns. -- Cliff Huprich ----------------------------------------------------------- Learn about rec.guns at http://www.recguns.com ----------------------------------------------------------- |
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OT- Crime at a 30 year low
Gunner wrote in message . ..
Personally, having been around the law enforcement community for a very long time, and having a few friends in the business, I can say, I dont trust the vast majority of them, and have little personal respect for the majority. The exceptions are notable, and if I wasnt friends with the various individuals, am not sure Id trust them either. Shrug.. But ..Its a dirty job and someone has to do it. And as long as the public will allow their public servants to misbehave...they get the cops they deserve. Kinda odd, finding myself agreeing with you. Musta been the chicken feet I had for lunch ... |
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OT- Crime at a 30 year low
"Excitable Boy" wrote in message
om... Gunner wrote in message . .. Personally, having been around the law enforcement community for a very long time, and having a few friends in the business, I can say, I dont trust the vast majority of them, and have little personal respect for the majority. The exceptions are notable, and if I wasnt friends with the various individuals, am not sure Id trust them either. Shrug.. But ..Its a dirty job and someone has to do it. And as long as the public will allow their public servants to misbehave...they get the cops they deserve. Kinda odd, finding myself agreeing with you. Musta been the chicken feet I had for lunch ... Welcome back! :0) --Len |
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OT- Crime at a 30 year low
On 2 Sep 2003 15:11:18 -0700, (Cliff Huprich) wrote:
(Cliff Huprich) wrote in message ... snip Probably because murder by firearms rates went up quite a bit. Most of the rest went down but NOT that. *Exactly* as anyone sane would expect when more people in the US have more guns. Not exactly. From a recent post to talk.politics.guns: (You can check these numbers from the CDC link at http://www.tincher.to/deaths.htm although I have no reason to doubt them) ------------------------------ Message-ID: From: Peter McMullen Subject: Firearms preferred choice to commit robberies and murders Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2003 06:56:45 GMT OK, Lets tighten up the numbers even further: the U.S. population in 1973 was 212 Million http://www.factmonster.com/year/1973.html the U.S. population in 2000 was 275 Million http://www.photius.com/wfb2000/count...es_people.html so the population increase in that period was actually roughly 30% according to the BATF there are about 230 million firearms currently firearms increased 73% from '73 to '92, from 122 million to 222 million, handguns rose 110% http://teapot.usask.ca/cdn-firearms/Polsby/gcsumm.html http://www.jpfo.org/data-docs.htm according to the BATF there are about 230 million firearms in the U.S. or at least an 89% increase since '73 So conservatively the population increased only 30% while the number of firearms at least 89%, and handguns probably accounting for most of the increase from 92 to 00 (due to so-called AW bans and handguns being better suited to most self defense, along with a probable decrease in hunting rifle sales) yet: total firearms crimes per 100k population 1973 = 171 total firearms crimes per 100k population 2000 = 121 171 - 171x = 121 171x = 50 x = 50/171 or a roughly 30% reduction total murders per 100k w/ firearms 1973 = 6.2 total murders per 100k w/ firearms 2000 = 3.6 same story The statistical trends actually correlate with tougher criminal sentences, anti-gang legislation and enforcement, and pro CCW legislation, which began in the early '90's. ----------------------------- Peter McMullen didn't mention that crack cocaine started going out of style in 1990. Gun control lobbyists always count nineteen-year-old drug dealers as children because so darned many of them shoot each other, and more child gun deaths means more support for gun control. Note to folks: I crossposted this to rec.guns which seems to be moderated. It took about a week for the moderators to approve it. IF you want anyone to soon see any responses/replies to YOUR posts don't crosspost to rec.guns. Seems like the moderated groups must first approve a post before anyone else sees it. If you crosspost to multiple moderated groups ... shudder. Yep, you've figured out how moderated groups work. BTW, THIS post does NOT go to rec.guns. You made a mistake, admitted it, and then learned from it. I'm sorry, but you are over-qualified to be a gun control lobbyist. Have you considered joining the NRA? -- "I can't describe how I felt when I picked up that rifle, loaded it into my little car and drove home. It seemed so incredibly strange: Sarah Brady, of all people, packing heat." - Sarah Brady, explaining how her son avoided the Brady criminal background check by getting her to buy the sniper rifle for him. Source: New York Daily News, Mar. 21, 2002, "Gun control advocate may have violated gun laws" |
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OT- Crime at a 30 year low
Rex Tincher wrote in message . ..
On 2 Sep 2003 15:11:18 -0700, (Cliff Huprich) wrote: (Cliff Huprich) wrote in message ... snip Probably because murder by firearms rates went up quite a bit. Most of the rest went down but NOT that. *Exactly* as anyone sane would expect when more people in the US have more guns. Not exactly. From a recent post to talk.politics.guns: (You can check these numbers from the CDC link at http://www.tincher.to/deaths.htm although I have no reason to doubt them) snip That's quite old data and unrelated. (Actually, only the numbers from 2 fairly recent years seem available using that link.) Note what the post said to begin with: [ In article , Gunner writes: #It was widely reported in the press yesterday that violent and property #crimes are at a 30 year low nationwide. # #So how come none of the media pundits and talking heads drew the obvious #connection between a plunging crime rate and the growth of firearm #ownership, including most states now licensing law abiding citizens to carry #concealed. ] A) "Violent and property crime" stats for the last year are down. B) We blame the medis for not reporting that this is due to all the new guns on the streets. In point of fact, the same report than mentioned the decline in *reported* "violent & property" crimes also mentioned that gun deaths were up quite a bit. I do wonder if the FBI's recent refusal to deal with things like bank robberies where nobody was killed enters into it. It's now just a local matter it seems ... too busy looking for people to send to Cuba. They cannot fudge the death stats at the CDC so easily it seems. -- Cliff Huprich |
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