I've been woodworking for about 10 years now and have built many
projects using detailed plans. I've also done a few designs of my own.
I'm realizing that I need to learn how to produce detailed drawings of
my concepts to help avoid design mistakes midstream. Not to mention to
have something to show my wife what I'm building. Right now I just
have to describe it the best I can and then say "trust me, it will be
nice."

I looked into taking a drafting class at the local schools, but can't
seem to find a non-CAD drafting class (I want to start on paper). I
also found it difficult to find books on this subject as well. Does
anyone have any suggestions on how to teach myself designing on paper?
BTW, my drawing skills are somewhat lacking, so I need to start at the
basics here.

Might try your local library for old drafting textbooks. Libraries seem
to abound in out-of-date books...
Since cad became the rage, no one is writing, much less selling
drafting books. Too bad. It's much faster to learn to draft than to
learn cad.
You'll need a minium of equipment to start: small drafting board,
t-square, couple of triangles, scaling rule (to draw to some scale, say
1/4 or 1/8), compass, drafting pencil, sharpener, eraser.
No need for fancy, expensive drafting sets just to start.
I'd try to find books that had lessons in them to get started.
Hope this helps.

I use KeyCad but learned the basics in school woodshop years ago on how to
draw your project. Its not real hard to do depending upon how big a table
you have. Basically KeyCad makes you calculate the measurements as if you
were puting it on paper I just like the ability to cut and paste. Here is
the link if you want to look at it.

http://compwizz.safeshopper.com/40/165.htm?742

-- Log

wrote in message
ups.com...
Another related question:
I've also looked quite a bit online for relatively inexpensive
designing software suitable for woodworking. I have either found
useless software that is very difficult to use and not very efficient
or very cool, but expensive software. Has anyone found anything in
between that is useful?

I'd still like to learn by hand, but with limited drawing skills, I was
looking for a software package to improve the quality and give others
the ability to understand my designs.

On 21 Jan 2005 10:23:41 -0800, "
wrote:

I've been woodworking for about 10 years now and have built many
projects using detailed plans. I've also done a few designs of my own.
I'm realizing that I need to learn how to produce detailed drawings of
my concepts to help avoid design mistakes midstream. Not to mention to
have something to show my wife what I'm building. Right now I just
have to describe it the best I can and then say "trust me, it will be
nice."

I looked into taking a drafting class at the local schools, but can't
seem to find a non-CAD drafting class (I want to start on paper). I
also found it difficult to find books on this subject as well. Does
anyone have any suggestions on how to teach myself designing on paper?
BTW, my drawing skills are somewhat lacking, so I need to start at the
basics here.
====================
I am now in my 60's.... and I "learned".. woodworking from my Dad..
who was a draftsman ... BUT he never sat down and "drew" up a complete
set of plans in his life that I know of...

He did make rough sketches for a basic design all with correct
demensions etc and he did make enlarged sketches of some of the
joints...again with measurements....

I continue to use the same methods...I sure can not draw either
but to make something like a end table or chest of drawers or a desk
you really do not need to be an artist...

I will admit to a "few" screw ups.

Bob Griffiths.

It has been about 15 years since I last looked at it, but Frank Ching's book
"Architectural Graphics" is a standard. It covers all types of drawing and
does not limit itself to "drafting". Looking at ebay I see it is selling for
anywhere from $0.99 to $5.00.

The techniques in there will come in handy when you need more than an
isometric drawing to show to your wife.

-j


wrote in message
oups.com...
I've been woodworking for about 10 years now and have built many
projects using detailed plans. I've also done a few designs of my own.
I'm realizing that I need to learn how to produce detailed drawings of
my concepts to help avoid design mistakes midstream. Not to mention to
have something to show my wife what I'm building. Right now I just
have to describe it the best I can and then say "trust me, it will be
nice."

I looked into taking a drafting class at the local schools, but can't
seem to find a non-CAD drafting class (I want to start on paper). I
also found it difficult to find books on this subject as well. Does
anyone have any suggestions on how to teach myself designing on paper?
BTW, my drawing skills are somewhat lacking, so I need to start at the
basics here.

On 21 Jan 2005 10:23:41 -0800, "
wrote:

I've been woodworking for about 10 years now and have built many
projects using detailed plans. I've also done a few designs of my own.
I'm realizing that I need to learn how to produce detailed drawings of
my concepts to help avoid design mistakes midstream. Not to mention to
have something to show my wife what I'm building. Right now I just
have to describe it the best I can and then say "trust me, it will be
nice."

I looked into taking a drafting class at the local schools, but can't
seem to find a non-CAD drafting class (I want to start on paper). I
also found it difficult to find books on this subject as well. Does
anyone have any suggestions on how to teach myself designing on paper?
BTW, my drawing skills are somewhat lacking, so I need to start at the
basics here.


go to a book store. go to the oldest store in town, the one with the
oldest books, the oldest booksellers and the been at that location the
longest.

look for a really old copy of architectural graphics standards.

go to a book store. go to the oldest store in town, the one with the
oldest books, the oldest booksellers and the been at that location the
longest.

look for a really old copy of architectural graphics standards.

Architectural Graphics Standards does not teach you how to draw/draft. It is
useful if you want to find out standard width of parking stalls or flashing
details, but it won't help this poster as much as many other more topical
books will.

-j

This doesn't answer your question about learning how to draw on paper.
I guess that's been covered--get thee to a library or bookstore.

On the subject of CAD software, I realize it is expensive but may I
suggest a different way to look at it? Think of it as another workshop
tool. One that will help save you money and time in mistakes not made.
I doubt that anyone would argue against proper planning.

I find that by the time I've completed a drawing whether with paper and
pencil or on the computer, it feels almost like I've built the project
once and I go out to the shop with much more confidence.

http://www.woodshopphotos.com/albums...m/shopcab3.jpg
The link is to a drawing of a cabinet I built for my shop. although you
can't see it in the drawing, all parts were drawn as individual pieces
and "assembled" to make the cabinet. Duplicate parts were drawn once
and copied. Everything was worked out in the drawing down to the
joinery.

No, the software wasn't as cheap as a pencil and a pad of paper but it
is makes it easier for me to make 3D views which I am able to do on
paper. It also lets me "walk" around the model to ensure I haven't
missed something.

My .02

Dave

On 21 Jan 2005 14:13:37 -0800, "Dave" wrote:

No, the software wasn't as cheap as a pencil and a pad of paper but it
is makes it easier for me to make 3D views which I am able to do on
paper. It also lets me "walk" around the model to ensure I haven't
missed something.

Does it have a name?

" wrote:

I've been woodworking for about 10 years now and have built many
projects using detailed plans. I've also done a few designs of my own.
I'm realizing that I need to learn how to produce detailed drawings of
my concepts to help avoid design mistakes midstream. Not to mention to
have something to show my wife what I'm building. Right now I just
have to describe it the best I can and then say "trust me, it will be
nice."

I looked into taking a drafting class at the local schools, but can't
seem to find a non-CAD drafting class (I want to start on paper). I
also found it difficult to find books on this subject as well. Does
anyone have any suggestions on how to teach myself designing on paper?
BTW, my drawing skills are somewhat lacking, so I need to start at the
basics here.


While not a drawing 'how to', you might want to take a look at some of the
'Shop Drawings ...' books on the market. There could be enough information
there for both learning and inspiration. Also check out some of the
woodworking design books.

On 21 Jan 2005 10:23:41 -0800, "
wrote:

I've been woodworking for about 10 years now and have built many
projects using detailed plans. I've also done a few designs of my own.
I'm realizing that I need to learn how to produce detailed drawings of
my concepts to help avoid design mistakes midstream. Not to mention to
have something to show my wife what I'm building. Right now I just
have to describe it the best I can and then say "trust me, it will be
nice."

I looked into taking a drafting class at the local schools, but can't
seem to find a non-CAD drafting class (I want to start on paper). I
also found it difficult to find books on this subject as well. Does
anyone have any suggestions on how to teach myself designing on paper?
BTW, my drawing skills are somewhat lacking, so I need to start at the
basics here.

Go to a used book store that handles technical books and pick up a
book on drafting from the 60s or earlier.

I have my father's copy of French's "Mechanical Drawing" from the
1930s and it is invaluable.

--RC

"Sometimes history doesn't repeat itself. It just yells
'can't you remember anything I've told you?' and lets
fly with a club.
-- John W. Cambell Jr.

Guess who, yes, it does have a name. The software that I use is called
SketchUp ( http://www.sketchup.com ). It was developed as a tool for
architects to do design work. It isn't really a CAD application
although it has the ability to do dimensioning and can be a very
effective tool for woodworkers. I have several CAD programs as well but
I've found that SketchUp has a much shorter learning curve and is more
intuitive to use. The company's site has tutorial videos under Training
if you'd like to see it in action.

I also use a 2D CAD application called Anvil 1000 which is ancient but
very effective. As CAD software goes, it is about as easy as you can
get. It runs in DOS so it doesn't have a pretty GUI but it runs faster
than AutoCAD or other similar software. That program and a bunch of
drawings will fit on a 1.44Mb floppy and will run from the disk. That
makes it very portable. Unfortunately, Anvil 1K would be tough to find
any more. Admittedly, since I bought SketchUp, I don't use Anvil as
much as I did before.

Dave

On 21 Jan 2005 17:02:27 -0800, "Dave" wrote:

Thanks. Try DeltaCad. Very intuitive and effective 2D drafting.
Solid Edge has the edge over a lot of 3D modelling software.

Guess who, yes, it does have a name. The software that I use is called
SketchUp ( http://www.sketchup.com ). It was developed as a tool for
architects to do design work. It isn't really a CAD application
although it has the ability to do dimensioning and can be a very
effective tool for woodworkers. I have several CAD programs as well but
I've found that SketchUp has a much shorter learning curve and is more
intuitive to use. The company's site has tutorial videos under Training
if you'd like to see it in action.

I also use a 2D CAD application called Anvil 1000 which is ancient but
very effective. As CAD software goes, it is about as easy as you can
get. It runs in DOS so it doesn't have a pretty GUI but it runs faster
than AutoCAD or other similar software. That program and a bunch of
drawings will fit on a 1.44Mb floppy and will run from the disk. That
makes it very portable. Unfortunately, Anvil 1K would be tough to find
any more. Admittedly, since I bought SketchUp, I don't use Anvil as
much as I did before.

Dave

I looked into taking a drafting class at the local schools, but can't
seem to find a non-CAD drafting class (I want to start on paper). I
also found it difficult to find books on this subject as well. Does
anyone have any suggestions on how to teach myself designing on paper?
BTW, my drawing skills are somewhat lacking, so I need to start at the
basics here.

Do you know anyone that does have the skill? It takes time to become a
really good draftsman, but you'd be amazed at how much you can learn in 30
minutes with a hands on instructor. Then a book to teach you more detail as
needed.

I was fortunate about 40 years ago when I worked in inventory control I
needed to find a part and all I had was a drawing. I floundered for a while
and asked a designer to explain what I was looking at. He took the time to
explain a drawing, the different views, sections, etc. While I don't have
the skill needed to do the drawings for a house or an engine block, I can
draw out a table, bench, etc. with some scale. That gives me a good sense
of proportion, allows me to dimension, plan material, cuts, etc.

Ask your friends if they know how to draw or if they can recommend someone
that would be willing to sit down with you for a short time. In no time
you'll be doing some simple designs with a ruler, triangle sharp pencil and
grid paper. Oh, don't forget an eraser also.
--
Ed
http://pages.cthome.net/edhome/

On 21 Jan 2005 10:23:41 -0800, "
wrote:

I've been woodworking for about 10 years now and have built many
projects using detailed plans. I've also done a few designs of my own.
I'm realizing that I need to learn how to produce detailed drawings of
my concepts to help avoid design mistakes midstream. Not to mention to
have something to show my wife what I'm building. Right now I just
have to describe it the best I can and then say "trust me, it will be
nice."

I looked into taking a drafting class at the local schools, but can't
seem to find a non-CAD drafting class (I want to start on paper). I
also found it difficult to find books on this subject as well. Does
anyone have any suggestions on how to teach myself designing on paper?
BTW, my drawing skills are somewhat lacking, so I need to start at the
basics here.

I doubt that it is still in print, but "Engineering Design Graphics" by
Earle was what I had in college. In addition to various drafting
instruction, it had information regarding design process and a number of
very handy reference information (screw size, drill size, etc).




+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

If you're gonna be dumb, you better be tough

+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

On 21 Jan 2005 10:23:41 -0800, "
vaguely proposed a theory
.......and in reply I say!:

remove ns from my header address to reply via email

When you say "designing" do you want accurate drawings of the things,
or somethong that lets you see what it will look like, rendered with
pretty colours etc? Purists actually argue that nobody really works
off a 3d drawing except CNC stuff! G

For most drawing I use DeltaCad. 2D only. But it's so easy and basic
to use (and cheap at $49(?)) that it's as simple as paper, and more
accurate. Try the demo. You can of course draw plans, pieces and
views, but it does not do these for you. I have used it for Isometric
and Perspective "3d" views, but these required basic drafting skills,
and are not rotatable in 3-space or whatever. They are simply
"artist's impressions".

The beauty of the programme is that you can leave it for a week or two
and simply sit down and draw again. To give you an idea, support sux,
but I don't care! G

I have just ordered DesignCad 3d for other uses, after using up the
(too short) 15 day trial time. You can get this for around US$60, but
it will be US$85 if you are overseas (rrrgh!) In that 15 days, of
which I used maybe 8, or say 16 hours, I managed to get far enough
that I did not hate the programme, which is the best I have done with
3d packages in most cases.It's 3d drafting. It is as simple (as in
intuitive) and powerful a combination as any I have tried, and I have
not used any package except DeltaCad 2d enough to become "hide bound".
But immediately you get into 3d you get complexity. You have to. You
can work in 2d mode, or in any of the "views". But once you jump to 3d
it's a bit of a change of pace. It's magic to watch, but you need to
be on your toes a bit.

We shall see how I "sit down and draw" after I get the full programme.
G

The support forums by users and volunteer staff are excellent.

I've been woodworking for about 10 years now and have built many
projects using detailed plans. I've also done a few designs of my own.
I'm realizing that I need to learn how to produce detailed drawings of
my concepts to help avoid design mistakes midstream. Not to mention to
have something to show my wife what I'm building. Right now I just
have to describe it the best I can and then say "trust me, it will be
nice."

I looked into taking a drafting class at the local schools, but can't
seem to find a non-CAD drafting class (I want to start on paper). I
also found it difficult to find books on this subject as well. Does
anyone have any suggestions on how to teach myself designing on paper?
BTW, my drawing skills are somewhat lacking, so I need to start at the
basics here.

Guess who, I've tried DeltaCAD--it's on my computer. Still not as easy
as Anvil 1000.

I think I'll stick with SketchUp for 3D work. Take a look at these.
This is just a little of what I've drawn with it.
http://www.woodshopphotos.com/albums...ller.sized.jpg
http://www.woodshopphotos.com/albums...orse.sized.jpg
The last is a 3-view drawing of a child's sled. This is done with out
dimensions but it shows that 2D drawings can be made from the 3D model.
http://hamiltonwoodworks.com/drichards/sled3view.jpg

"Dave" wrote in message
oups.com...
Guess who, I've tried DeltaCAD--it's on my computer. Still not as easy
as Anvil 1000.

I think I'll stick with SketchUp for 3D work. Take a look at these.
This is just a little of what I've drawn with it.
http://www.woodshopphotos.com/albums...ller.sized.jpg
http://www.woodshopphotos.com/albums...orse.sized.jpg
The last is a 3-view drawing of a child's sled. This is done with out
dimensions but it shows that 2D drawings can be made from the 3D model.
http://hamiltonwoodworks.com/drichards/sled3view.jpg


The drawings look nice, but what about dimesionining? How does it handle it
and will it put the part in proper relationship by size?

Edwin, dimensioning is a simple thing. I'll post a dimensioned drawing
shortly.

As to your other question, I'm not certain what you mean. If parts are
drawn to the desired size, they will be in proper size relationship to
each other.

It is possible to draw components that can be later inserted into a
drawing. Maybe you have a standard hinge that you like to use on your
cabinets. You could draw the hinge and save it as a component. Then
draw the cabinet and insert and place the hinge component where you
want it.

http://www.woodshopphotos.com/albums...bdim.sized.jpg

I just did a quick one for illustration. This is that shop cabinet I
built. The tops, doors and slide out tray were left out of the drawing
for clarity. I only put in a few of the dimensions just to show that it
can do it.

hope that shows what you wanted to see, Edwin.

Dave

"Dave" wrote in message
ups.com...
http://www.woodshopphotos.com/albums...bdim.sized.jpg

I just did a quick one for illustration. This is that shop cabinet I
built. The tops, doors and slide out tray were left out of the drawing
for clarity. I only put in a few of the dimensions just to show that it
can do it.

hope that shows what you wanted to see, Edwin.

Dave


Yes, it is. My other question was in reference to the dimensions. In this
drawing you show the base as 3' 2" and the top as 3' 6". If you go into the
program and change the base to 4' 5" will the drawing change proportions or
just the dimension be noted? Am I expecting too much from a low cost
program?

Another way of putting it, will the program allow me to put a 12" diameter
dowel into a 6" hole?

"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message
. com...

Another way of putting it, will the program allow me to put a 12" diameter
dowel into a 6" hole?


Yes, it will.

Fri, Jan 21, 2005, 10:23am (EST-3) claims:
snip I'm realizing that I need to learn how to produce detailed
drawings of my concepts to help avoid design mistakes midstream. snip

I think you're dreaming there, I've seen a lot of detailed plans
with design mistakes.

I usually figure out most of my plans in my head, maybe a rough
sketch or two to clarify something in my mine.

But, if you want a picture to show the wife, I would think a sketch
would work. The way I would do it, will come up with a pretty detailed
drawing.

Use a hard pencil, and very light lines, make a sketch of what you
want. Then go over the lines that look "right"with a slightly heavier
line. Repeat as needed. You can erase the lines you aren't happy with
at any time. Even if you can't draw great, you can come up with some
pretty detailed drawing this way. Feel free to use a ruler, and/or
compass.

Speaking of compasses, I had one of those el-cheapo metal ones,
like I had in school. Never worked worth crap. Found a plastic one at
an office supply store for about $1, and it works great.



JOAT
Charity ain't giving people what you wants to give, it's giving people
what they need to get.
- Albert

On Sat, 22 Jan 2005 13:58:34 -0500, (J T)
wrote:

Feel free to use a ruler, and/or
compass.

Speaking of compasses, I had one of those el-cheapo metal ones,
like I had in school. Never worked worth crap. Found a plastic one at
an office supply store for about $1, and it works great.

Yes, they'd work better than a compass.

BTW, I've used compasses and straight edge for a lot of constructions.
You'll get bang-on 90 degrees for example. Still, a decent frafting
program like DeltaCad gets rid of the need for that now.

On Sat, 22 Jan 2005 13:58:34 -0500, (J T)
vaguely proposed a theory
.......and in reply I say!:

remove ns from my header address to reply via email

Fri, Jan 21, 2005, 10:23am (EST-3) claims:
snip I'm realizing that I need to learn how to produce detailed
drawings of my concepts to help avoid design mistakes midstream. snip

I think you're dreaming there, I've seen a lot of detailed plans
with design mistakes.

Yeah. I remember starting out I had my faith on designs warped because
spome stup[id WW magazine had made a chair with legs that were _drawn_
OK, but the dimension shown was too short. Being a newbie and "trying
to do the right thing" and having no idea, I simply followed the
plans.

Edwin, the dimensions shown are based upon the sizes things were drawn
when I was working out the design of the cabinet. For example the base
is drawn to be 5" wide stock (by 1-1/4" milled from 2x6 construction
lumber). I controlled the lengths of the various pieces. The
dimensioning is simplt derived from the distance between the endpoints
selected when applying the dimension.

As far as putting a 12" dowel in a 6" hole, well you could place the
dowel through the piece containing the hole but it wouldn't look like a
6" dowel in a six inch hole.

You could change the dimension as you say from 3' 2" to 4' 6" but it
won't resize the cabinet. You could, however rescale the piece so that
the dimension is increased to the desired 4' 6" if you'd like.

By using grouping and layers you can draw all the individual components
so they can be edited indepently from each other.

That kind of thing is a lot less likely with modern software. When drawing
on paper, the dimensions are written in by hand. If the draftsman puts in
the wrong dimension, it's wrong. The way I do it (and the way the
engineering world is going) is to draw each part in 3D. Assemble everything
into the finished product. If it all fits, disassemble and dimension the
parts. Since the dimensions are given by measuring the parts rather than
entering them manually, these types of mistakes are far less likely. 3D work
takes more time learning (and the software certainly isn't cheap) than most
hobbyists are willing to put into it but the results are great.
To the OP. The idea of learning first on the board is a good one. There is
no better way of getting the basic skills than with pencil and paper. It
will be a great foundation for any further work. There is a local college
here that teaches a drafting course. It is a ten month full time course. The
first two months are entirely on the board. They then move on to CAD. So, it
is not entirely dead but finding a teacher may be hard.

"Old Nick" wrote in message
...
Yeah. I remember starting out I had my faith on designs warped because
spome stup[id WW magazine had made a chair with legs that were _drawn_
OK, but the dimension shown was too short. Being a newbie and "trying
to do the right thing" and having no idea, I simply followed the
plans.

On 22 Jan 2005 05:35:28 -0800, "Dave" vaguely
proposed a theory
.......and in reply I say!:

remove ns from my header address to reply via email

Guess who, I've tried DeltaCAD--it's on my computer. Still not as easy
as Anvil 1000.

And A1000 is a hole lot more fun to buy too!....in the pocket that
is!!!! G

I think I'll stick with SketchUp for 3D work. Take a look at these.
This is just a little of what I've drawn with it.
http://www.woodshopphotos.com/albums...ller.sized.jpg
http://www.woodshopphotos.com/albums...orse.sized.jpg
The last is a 3-view drawing of a child's sled. This is done with out
dimensions but it shows that 2D drawings can be made from the 3D model.
http://hamiltonwoodworks.com/drichards/sled3view.jpg

"Dave" wrote in message

As far as putting a 12" dowel in a 6" hole, well you could place the
dowel through the piece containing the hole but it wouldn't look like a
6" dowel in a six inch hole.

What I'd hope to happen is a big error message "you can't do that dummy"
and then crash my computer or something.



You could change the dimension as you say from 3' 2" to 4' 6" but it
won't resize the cabinet. You could, however rescale the piece so that
the dimension is increased to the desired 4' 6" if you'd like.

I sometimes draw things out just to get the cut sizes and figure dimensions.
Appearance is not a big factor as I know what it is going to look like.
Sometimes I draw a piece out and don't like the proportions. To change the
drawing on paper you have to re-draw. The re-scale may be what I'm hoping
it would do.


I guess I should try out a couple of programs to see how well I can handle
them. They all look so simple when an experienced person is doing the
drawing.

"What I'd hope to happen is a big error message "you can't do that
dummy"
and then crash my computer or something."

Just let windows take care of those things for you. g

I agree, Edwin, you should give a couple of them a try. Most CAD
software will have some sort of free trial period if you download off
the net. SketchUp has an 8 hour trial period. That's 8 hours of program
open time.

Take a look at the training videos on their site. They'll let you see
what SketchUp can do.

By the way, one thing that is nice about SketchUp is that you can
ignore dimensions altogether and basically just doodle to get an idea
of what something might look like. Then you can clean up and adjust as
needed to get to a working drawing that you take to the shop.

Think of that as starting out with a big fat crayon, drawing shapes
freehand until you get what you want. Then switching to a sharpened
pencil and a ruler to do a final drawing.

SketchUp has a several functions that make it a wonderful tool for
woodworkers. First, the Push/Pull tool which allows surfaces to be
moved perpendicular to the face. Another is the Rescale tool which will
allow you to adjust the size of things without redrawing. The third
cool tool is called Follow Me. It allows you to draw a profile and then
extrude it along a path. This is useful for drawing moldings as you can
draw the cross section of the molding and then extrude it to follow the
shape of the cabinet or whatever. You could use this function to draw a
picture frame or whatever as well.

Dave

"Dave" wrote:

Think of that as starting out with a big fat crayon, drawing shapes
freehand until you get what you want. Then switching to a sharpened
pencil and a ruler to do a final drawing.



Is this the SketchUp that goes for $475, or have I found the wrong site?

If it's $475, it's a pretty spendy crayon.

On 23 Jan 2005 13:34:29 -0800, "Dave" vaguely
proposed a theory
.......and in reply I say!:

remove ns from my header address to reply via email

"What I'd hope to happen is a big error message "you can't do that
dummy"
and then crash my computer or something."

That happened to me the first time I _used_ Windows (and many times
since)! G

On Mon, 24 Jan 2005 11:42:19 +0800, Old Nick
wrote:

On 23 Jan 2005 13:34:29 -0800, "Dave" vaguely
proposed a theory
......and in reply I say!:

remove ns from my header address to reply via email

"What I'd hope to happen is a big error message "you can't do that
dummy"
and then crash my computer or something."

That happened to me the first time I _used_ Windows (and many times
since)! G

Difference with windows was that the message wasn't "You can't do that,
dummy!", it was "I don't *feel* like doing that now sucker!"





+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

If you're gonna be dumb, you better be tough

+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

L.D., yes, it is expensive for a crayon but think of it as Crayola's
biggest set with the sharpener in the back of the box, a drawing board,
T-square, drafting triangles and scales, compass, pencils, eraser...

Like I said earlier, I think of SketchUp as another shop tool. For me
and some other woodworkers who have it, it ends up saving a lot of time
in the shop.

In addition, if you're building something for someone else, SketchUp
makes it easy to make sure both of you know what you're building.

Dave

"Dave" wrote:

In addition, if you're building something for someone else, SketchUp
makes it easy to make sure both of you know what you're building.



I can see using it for that. I'd sure like to have that big box of
crayolas, but the desire for more physical tools pretty much busts my
budget. )

On Sat, 22 Jan 2005 13:58:34 -0500, (J T)
wrote:

I think you're dreaming there, I've seen a lot of detailed plans
with design mistakes.

absolutely...
and -in spite of the real benefits and safeguards CAD does offer
(especially 'second generation' CAD programs which use 3D parametric
objects with associated dimensioning, interference checking, etc )- it
is *still* possible for 'impossible to build' objects to be
designed/drafted, dimensioning errors/mistakes to be made, bad
annoations that mislead, wrong version of data used, etc, etc, etc...

not to mention, there are *many* times where computer-generated
drawings are user-edited/overridden in the computer drawing files
(whether rightly, wrongly, or expeditiously), and/or the actual
physical vellums/plots/blueprints are manually erased/changed (whether
rightly, wrongly, or expeditiously)...

I usually figure out most of my plans in my head, maybe a rough
sketch or two to clarify something in my mine.

agree with most points made by previous posters, but surprised i see
no mention of one of the most indispensable tools for
designing/detailing/drafting projects of all sorts : a letter size pad
of 1/4" GRID paper ! ! !

i use it for design development, making thumbnail sketches of shapes,
proportions, outlines, and the 'look'; usually, these are made to
rough scale, like, 1/4" grid = 3/4", 1", or up to a foot on larger
projects...

after i get the design semi-established, then i use the grid paper for
figuring out full-scale drawings of the joint details, design
features, etc... (except on the simplest of objects, i almost always
have to go back and modify the original design, once i figure out how
the structure/joints/details have to interact, influence, and limit
one another...)

*sometimes* i fire up autocad for doing such drawings; especially if i
need to plot out fullsize templates for pieces/parts; but, otherwise,
the grid pad is where my humble project ideas are born, then virtually
raised...

(i would not recommend autocad for these purposes; the cheaper CAD
alternatives mentioned -and others- would be *better* for 99% of all
woodworkers than acad would be...)

grid paper, don't leave home without it...

charleyy

eof

Ooooh ! Beware the CAD plague, it will stifle any instant , accidental
design 'eureka moment'. I use a few sketches and then into making a
maquette. 3D mockups where you can see proportions and see a lot of
problems before you cut the wood and clients can see and touch
something tangible. Read 'Courage to Create' by Rollo May for the real
programme.