On Sat, 08 Jan 2005 02:06:25 -0500, Silvan
wrote:

Ah, so he was a good one, because he _recognized_ that you knew where
to go. It's the ones who tell you blatantly wrong things that **** me
off. "Reboot and clear your cache." "Um, why exactly?" "Because I
can't go on to the next line in my script until you do that."

Yeah, me too. "OK, I'm rebooting. Beep. There, I'm rebooted. Next
question. Yes, this machine boots very fast. Next question please. It's
a, um, Octegenarian 4000. They're new. Next question please."

I did tech support for a while. The reason for the script (and the
stupid questions) is to weed out the calls that are just someone who
is trying to print with the printer off or something. I spent a lot of
time on the phone with someone once because their system was running
but the monitor was totally dead. I suspected it was unplugged (you
sometimes just get a feeling from the person you're talking to). He
absolutely *refused* to check to see if it was plugged in "I've been
in this industry for x years and I know how to use these things."
"OK, let's try it on a different outlet to see if it will work there
before I have you ship the monitor back for a replacement." Long
silence while he crawls behind the desk to "unplug" it. Suddenly he
comes back on the line "Never mind." click.

A friend worked support for the local cable company. The "clearing
question" for them was "what time does your VCR show?" If it was
flashing 12:00 you could safely assume they were incapable of
following instructions an you simply terminated the call and
dispatched a service guy.

The point is that there is usually a reason for the stupid questions.
When you deal with a Windows system reboots are a normal part of any
debugging cycle because it is too stupid to forget anything until you
turn the power off. Especially network stuff. I have had to turn off
(power off, not just rebood) every system on my network and bring them
back up again in order to restore communication. Win98 is really bad
that way, but XP does it quite a bit too. I find it is not uncommon to
need to reboot 15-20 times in order to make a network change work.
There is no logical explanation (other than that Microsoft writes
crummy software), but it *does* work a lot of the time. It frustrates
the heck out of me to reboot four times with nothing changing and have
it suddenly work on the fifth, but that's life in the MS world.

Tim Douglass

http://www.DouglassClan.com

Silvan wrote in
:

Yeah, like I can remember everybody's password for everything. Nine
computers, eight routers, six cable/DSL/dialup modems. I don't even
have a big "network" but it's big enough I need a crib sheet. I wrote
down her particulars some place where *I* can keep up with it this
time, so I can deal with future problems over the phone.

So why is a certified LINUX geek who can network driving a truck for a job?

Patriarch

Mark & Juanita wrote:

yep those password policies really
helped improve security, didn't they?

One client of our has insane IMO requirements: 15 characters, must include
at least a number and a special character, and NO WORDS! Usually for
requirements like that I'll use the dictionary technique. Open a thick
book, use the first word I see, open to another page, use the page number,
open to another page & use the first word I see, etc. This client's policy
wouldn't accept e.g.
banana48file62uses323/count
because it said "banana" was a word!

However, a password of this form is blessed. g
aaaaaaaaaaaaa1/

-- Mark

Silvan wrote:
Mark & Juanita wrote:


they? Now, I won't say where those passwords are, but suffice it to say,
I don't hide them under my keyboard or mousepad -- I have a little bit of
operations security sense.


They're on a big yellow Post-It note on the front of your monitor,
right?

It floored me when I saw a machine at a, um, locally owned store which shall
remain namless. The server responsible for handling all the credit card
transactions for the store. Big yellow Post-It note with usernames and
passwords right on it. Gee willakers Mrs. Cleaver, I wonder if I can
figure out how to break into that machine?



My set up requires new passwords every 30 days. So the password on the
second month is a 1 in front of the old ones, on the third month they
revert to the original passwords, the fourth month gets the 1 back in
front of them, and so on. Fortunately I only have 4 to keep up with.
Hardest part is to remember whether this is a 1 or non 1 month.

Saw an article about passwords -- the security experts were saying that
these foolish ideas about different passwords for everything plus the
required frequent changes has caused the opposite result of what was
desired. Security is worse because of the very thing you all mentioned
-- a post it note with passwords and user names on the computer. If they
are conscious of security they use the pale yellow instead of the neon
green ones so they don't stand out as much. If they are real conscious
of security, they hide it under the keyboard instead of taping it to the
monitor.

On Sat, 08 Jan 2005 19:52:23 GMT, "Mark Jerde"
wrote:

Mark & Juanita wrote:

yep those password policies really
helped improve security, didn't they?

One client of our has insane IMO requirements: 15 characters, must include
at least a number and a special character, and NO WORDS!

Ostensibly this is to prevent dictionary-driven programs from trying
combinations of words and numbers to break into a user's account. Now,
applying the common sense rule here, coupled with the fact that most
security protocols either lock out the user for a certain period of time
(30 minutes, 2 hours, etc) or permanently (requiring sysadmin to reset the
password) after 3 (or some other number) of failed login attempts -- given
that the user hasn't chosen aardvark1 as a password, how long is it going
to take an automated hacking program to get user access with brute-force
attacks? Given the example you cite below, just because banana may be a
word is not an aid to an attack on a system with a password lock policy.

Usually for
requirements like that I'll use the dictionary technique. Open a thick
book, use the first word I see, open to another page, use the page number,
open to another page & use the first word I see, etc. This client's policy
wouldn't accept e.g.
banana48file62uses323/count
because it said "banana" was a word!

However, a password of this form is blessed. g
aaaaaaaaaaaaa1/


Oooh, I can see how that is *much* more secure than the banana password
:-)


-- Mark




+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

Now we'll just use some glue to hold things in place until the brads dry

+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

On Sat, 08 Jan 2005 10:31:04 -0800, Tim Douglass
wrote:

.... snip

The point is that there is usually a reason for the stupid questions.
When you deal with a Windows system reboots are a normal part of any
debugging cycle because it is too stupid to forget anything until you
turn the power off. Especially network stuff.

You ought to try Windows systems on Novell networks. Not only do you
have to power off, you have to unhook the LAN cable (and shake the bits
out) before you can reboot and Novell forgets you were connected to the
network. Part of this may be because of a stupid policy that only allows
one simultaneous network logon per user id -- it's irritating as all get
out when an app freezes the computer and simply re-booting won't get you
back on the network.


I have had to turn off
(power off, not just rebood) every system on my network and bring them
back up again in order to restore communication. Win98 is really bad
that way, but XP does it quite a bit too. I find it is not uncommon to
need to reboot 15-20 times in order to make a network change work.
There is no logical explanation (other than that Microsoft writes
crummy software), but it *does* work a lot of the time. It frustrates
the heck out of me to reboot four times with nothing changing and have
it suddenly work on the fifth, but that's life in the MS world.

Tim Douglass

http://www.DouglassClan.com



+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

Now we'll just use some glue to hold things in place until the brads dry

+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

Patriarch wrote:

down her particulars some place where *I* can keep up with it this
time, so I can deal with future problems over the phone.

So why is a certified LINUX geek who can network driving a truck for a
job?

Have you looked at any of the help wanted ads for Linux geeks?

I'm not selling myself short here. I'm just really not remotely qualified
for any job I've ever seen advertised. The home desktop arena where I play
has almost nothing in common with the corporate world. I've never used a
computer in a professional setting, except for a brief stint working as a
typist in a copy center in college, and I have no computer experience. No
training, no education, just a couple decades as a competent hobbiest.
I've never worked in an office environment either.

Plus I guess I tolerate it pretty well. I could talk about it for quite a
long time, both the ups and downs. There are ups, there are downs.
Everything is always a balancing act. Up, having a lot of time off. Down,
having to work ridiculous hours during busy times. Up, being free to do my
job my own way, without being micromanaged. Down, spending long periods of
time by myself, without any coworkers to socialize with. Up, paying the
bills. Down, having a job I'm just not really very proud of, because I
have the intellectual potential to do more exciting sounding things.

I guess on balance, the thing that bothers me most of all is not having any
friends to spend time with in person. I'm not a very sociable guy to start
with, but I used to have some semblance of a social life. That all ended
eight years ago, and I live a very solitary life now. I have my family,
the people on the other side of a computer monitor, and a couple of people
who work in furniture stores in distant cities. Most of that time this
doesn't really bother me at all, but sometimes it does. I guess even
hermits like me like to have a little human contact now and again.

--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/
http://rosegarden.sourceforge.net/tutorial/

Tim Douglass wrote:

before I have you ship the monitor back for a replacement." Long
silence while he crawls behind the desk to "unplug" it. Suddenly he
comes back on the line "Never mind." click.



Dad's job, growing up, was similar. I remember those conversations at 2:00
AM. "Is it plugged in?" Pause. "Is it PLUGGED IN?" Longer pause. "Is
it turned on?"

The point is that there is usually a reason for the stupid questions.

Yeah, I know. That's why I humor them.

crummy software), but it *does* work a lot of the time. It frustrates
the heck out of me to reboot four times with nothing changing and have
it suddenly work on the fifth, but that's life in the MS world.

Right, which is why I don't run Windows at my house. I *can* do it, but
it's not worth the hassle.

Although, I guess I won't be saying that too much longer. I'm going to
throw Windows on my son's computer. I can't quite expect him to learn the
Linux way of programming his Lego Mindstorms, and he's on the team at
school. The trick is going to be making sure that pile of monkey guts
doesn't figure out how to get onto the internet even though it will be
plugged into a router. The last time I tried this, it said "Oh, I see you
have installed a router. Now Internet Exploder is ready to acquire viruses
for you." Maybe that would be friendly to some people, but I actually like
having complete control over every aspect of my system. I'm not used to
things happening without my express permission, and that annoys the hell
out of me.

--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/
http://rosegarden.sourceforge.net/tutorial/

Mark & Juanita wrote:

that the user hasn't chosen aardvark1 as a password, how long is it going
to take an automated hacking program to get user access with brute-force
attacks? Given the example you cite below, just because banana may be a

Reminds me... I had a bit of fun once, for no particular reason. I decided
to list out all the possible passwords for a... I don't remember, maybe 7
character password and write them to a file. I ran the program, and it
filled up my 40 gig hard drive in practically no time, probably less than
five minutes, and hadn't gotten much past stuff like @@@@@@! or whatever.

Of course I knew there were 13.4 bajillion different combinations, but that
really drove it home. I never really thought about how big the resulting
text file would be to hold them all listed out.


--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/
http://rosegarden.sourceforge.net/tutorial/

Hey Michael,

I think you can block a range of ip addresses that the router will pass with
a subnet mask. Set a static IP on your son's computer (say 192.168.0.129)
and set the ROUTER subnet mask to 255.255.255.128. This should pass all
addresses between 192.168.0.0 and 192.168.0.127, and reject all else
(assuming you set your lan address to that particular block address).

I THINK that's the right approach ... you can still use the hub portion to
allow connections on your lan, but the subnet mask will prevent him from
crossing the divide to the real world.

Or, for even more fun, set the subnet mask on all your home computers to
0.0.0.0 (allow all to communicate), leave your router subnet mask set as
255,255,255,0; and set your son's computer to 192.168.x.y, where x is 1-255
(just not zero), and y is 0-255.

*****

Wouldn't WINE be a better approach however? It would allow you to retain
your linux administration stuff, but allow the windows application a place
to run (er die?). BSOD only kills the windows app, not the supporting OS.

HTH,

Rick
"Silvan" wrote in message
...


Although, I guess I won't be saying that too much longer. I'm going to
throw Windows on my son's computer. I can't quite expect him to learn the
Linux way of programming his Lego Mindstorms, and he's on the team at
school. The trick is going to be making sure that pile of monkey guts
doesn't figure out how to get onto the internet even though it will be
plugged into a router. The last time I tried this, it said "Oh, I see you
have installed a router. Now Internet Exploder is ready to acquire
viruses
for you." Maybe that would be friendly to some people, but I actually
like
having complete control over every aspect of my system. I'm not used to
things happening without my express permission, and that annoys the hell
out of me.

--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/
http://rosegarden.sourceforge.net/tutorial/

On Sat, 08 Jan 2005 23:15:06 -0500, Silvan
calmly ranted:

Patriarch wrote:

down her particulars some place where *I* can keep up with it this
time, so I can deal with future problems over the phone.

So why is a certified LINUX geek who can network driving a truck for a
job?

Have you looked at any of the help wanted ads for Linux geeks?

I'm not selling myself short here. I'm just really not remotely qualified
for any job I've ever seen advertised. The home desktop arena where I play
has almost nothing in common with the corporate world. I've never used a
computer in a professional setting, except for a brief stint working as a
typist in a copy center in college, and I have no computer experience. No
training, no education, just a couple decades as a competent hobbiest.

Well, Glenn misspelled "certifiable" and you misspelled "hobbyist."
I guess that makes you even.

I'm fairly certain that the idiots who write up want ads have never
even heard of the technologies they require for any given job. Some
seem to want people younger than 22 with a Bachelors in Arts, a
Masters in Computer Sciences, and a PHD in something else, know 27
different computer languages fluently, be able to levitate, etc.
Oh, and they're offering minimum wage + perqs.


---
- Sarcasm is just one more service we offer. -
http://diversify.com Web Applications

Larry Jaques wrote:

On Sat, 08 Jan 2005 23:15:06 -0500, Silvan
calmly ranted:

Patriarch wrote:

down her particulars some place where *I* can keep up
with it this time, so I can deal with future problems
over the phone.

So why is a certified LINUX geek who can network driving a
truck for a job?

Have you looked at any of the help wanted ads for Linux
geeks?

I'm not selling myself short here. I'm just really not
remotely qualified for any job I've ever seen advertised.
The home desktop arena where I play has almost nothing in
common with the corporate world. I've never used a computer
in a professional setting, except for a brief stint working
as a typist in a copy center in college, and I have no
computer experience. No training, no education, just a
couple decades as a competent hobbiest.

Hmm. I think you /are/ selling yourself short.

Well, Glenn misspelled "certifiable" and you misspelled
"hobbyist." I guess that makes you even.

I'm fairly certain that the idiots who write up want ads have
never even heard of the technologies they require for any
given job. Some seem to want people younger than 22 with a
Bachelors in Arts, a Masters in Computer Sciences, and a PHD
in something else, know 27 different computer languages
fluently, be able to levitate, etc. Oh, and they're offering
minimum wage + perqs.

A year after NT was released, I remember seeing an ad looking for
someone with 5 years of NT experience. (:

BTW, when the unpaid overtime is figured in, a lot of the young
software H1B types ended up making /far/ less than minimum wage.
I recall 7 young Indian programmers in San Jose sharing an
apartment because none of them could afford a single bedroom unit
of their own. When I asked if it wasn't uncomfortably crowded,
the answer I got was there were almost never more than two or
three at home - because the other four or five would be at work.
These guys typically worked twelve to eighteen hours a day and
got paid for only eight. Not all the sweatshops are on the
/other/ side of the Pacific rim...

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/collectors.html

Larry Jaques wrote:

training, no education, just a couple decades as a competent hobbiest.

Well, Glenn misspelled "certifiable" and you misspelled "hobbyist."
I guess that makes you even.

I have to turn off the on-the-fly splee cheker because it makes my 2 GHz
machine feel like a 200 MHz machine, and I get about 20 words ahead of it
typing. I never have been able to spelee wroth a damn. In English anyway.
My spelling in Spanish is damn near perfect.

I'm fairly certain that the idiots who write up want ads have never
even heard of the technologies they require for any given job. Some
seem to want people younger than 22 with a Bachelors in Arts, a
Masters in Computer Sciences, and a PHD in something else, know 27
different computer languages fluently, be able to levitate, etc.
Oh, and they're offering minimum wage + perqs.

That's an apt summary of the ads anyway, except you forgot 15 years of Linux
kernel hacking experience.

--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/
http://rosegarden.sourceforge.net/tutorial/

Rick wrote:

I think you can block a range of ip addresses that the router will pass
with a subnet mask. Set a static IP on your son's computer (say

Yeah, sumpin' like that. I'll save this post for later. Thanks.

Wouldn't WINE be a better approach however? It would allow you to retain
your linux administration stuff, but allow the windows application a place
to run (er die?). BSOD only kills the windows app, not the supporting OS.

I doubt it. I've never found WINE to be particularly useful for anything.

--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/
http://rosegarden.sourceforge.net/tutorial/

Years ago, one of my Windows NT instructors mentioned two passwords to use
that most people would never think of..

1. Rather than using conventional keyboard characters, use something from
the extended ASCII character set by holding down the Alt key and using the
numeric keypad to enter the ASCII equivilant number representing the
character.

I believe he demonstrated by using the ASCII number equivilant to
'backspace'. Hold down the Alt key and enter using the numeric keypad, 008
then let off the Alt key.
Not only would most people never think of it, it wouldn't display anything
on the screen.

2. The other simpler example he used, was based on the fact that in NT at
least, in User Manager for Domains, you can look up any user, but the field
that lists the users password, displays 14 *'s no matter what the password
is.

Simply use a password of 14 *'s. (**************)

One of the Salemen at our company, has a company issued laptop. He was
having some problems with it one day, so he asked me to come take a look at
it for him.

Yep, right on the OUTSIDE lid of the laptop was a piece of paper perhaps
4x6" with both his login name for the corporate network AND the password!
Didn't even tape it to the INSIDE of the lid!

At least the way he taped it to the lid was such that when the laptop was
open, anybody from across the room that looked at it would see it upside
down....


"Silvan" wrote in message
...
Mark & Juanita wrote:

that the user hasn't chosen aardvark1 as a password, how long is it going
to take an automated hacking program to get user access with brute-force
attacks? Given the example you cite below, just because banana may be a

Reminds me... I had a bit of fun once, for no particular reason. I
decided
to list out all the possible passwords for a... I don't remember, maybe 7
character password and write them to a file. I ran the program, and it
filled up my 40 gig hard drive in practically no time, probably less than
five minutes, and hadn't gotten much past stuff like @@@@@@! or whatever.

Of course I knew there were 13.4 bajillion different combinations, but
that
really drove it home. I never really thought about how big the resulting
text file would be to hold them all listed out.


--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/
http://rosegarden.sourceforge.net/tutorial/

"Silvan" wrote in message

I doubt it. I've never found WINE to be particularly useful for anything.

--

I find it very useful. Most women like it and . . . . . . . . .

On Sun, 09 Jan 2005 17:43:53 GMT, "Edwin Pawlowski" wrote:


"Silvan" wrote in message

I doubt it. I've never found WINE to be particularly useful for anything.

--

I find it very useful. Most women like it and . . . . . . . . .

Ahh, pantie remover....

On Sun, 09 Jan 2005 11:27:54 -0500, Silvan
calmly ranted:

Larry Jaques wrote:

training, no education, just a couple decades as a competent hobbiest.

Well, Glenn misspelled "certifiable" and you misspelled "hobbyist."
I guess that makes you even.

I have to turn off the on-the-fly splee cheker because it makes my 2 GHz
machine feel like a 200 MHz machine, and I get about 20 words ahead of it
typing. I never have been able to spelee wroth a damn. In English anyway.
My spelling in Spanish is damn near perfect.

So write a new spel chuker, Mr. 15-y/o Linux Wiz.


I'm fairly certain that the idiots who write up want ads have never
even heard of the technologies they require for any given job. Some
seem to want people younger than 22 with a Bachelors in Arts, a
Masters in Computer Sciences, and a PHD in something else, know 27
different computer languages fluently, be able to levitate, etc.
Oh, and they're offering minimum wage + perqs.

That's an apt summary of the ads anyway, except you forgot 15 years of Linux
kernel hacking experience.

Right, 15 years with a 12-y/o system.


---
- Sarcasm is just one more service we offer. -
http://diversify.com Web Applications

Naw. Actually, the kids bought them for me, so I guess I had better
hang on to them a while longer.