I went to Sears this afternoon to take a look - in particular
at the $950 (list) cabinet saw.

I was a lttle disappointed to tell you the truth. I didn't have
a lot of time, but there were a few things that jumped
out at me.

The first thing I went for was the Bies fence. Maybe I'm mis-
informed, but I was expecting a massive extruded aluminum
fence - the Biesmeyer labeled one that had on the machine
was some sort of phenolic (I guess the HMW stuff). When I
pressed the handle to lock it, the fence front jumped - is that
normal? To be honest, the Craftsman fence on the next lower
priced "contractor type" saw looked sturdier.

Second, I turned the wheel that controls the blade height. Again,
I thought it was a little "dinkey" (?). Not much better than what's
on my 15 yr old $300 import.

Although the side handle/knob was missing, I got the
impression that the one control wheel adjusted BOTH the
blade height and angle - you must pull or push a knob
on the side - I'm not sure, but it wasn't what I would
call sturdy.

I have been eyeing this saw vs. The Griz 1023S. From what
I have seen so far, I think I would get the green monster if I
bought one now.

Lou

I think it would take more than a table saw to knock down all 37 feet of
green monster.


"loutent" wrote in message
...
I went to Sears this afternoon to take a look - in particular
at the $950 (list) cabinet saw.

I was a lttle disappointed to tell you the truth. I didn't have
a lot of time, but there were a few things that jumped
out at me.

The first thing I went for was the Bies fence. Maybe I'm mis-
informed, but I was expecting a massive extruded aluminum
fence - the Biesmeyer labeled one that had on the machine
was some sort of phenolic (I guess the HMW stuff). When I
pressed the handle to lock it, the fence front jumped - is that
normal? To be honest, the Craftsman fence on the next lower
priced "contractor type" saw looked sturdier.

Second, I turned the wheel that controls the blade height. Again,
I thought it was a little "dinkey" (?). Not much better than what's
on my 15 yr old $300 import.

Although the side handle/knob was missing, I got the
impression that the one control wheel adjusted BOTH the
blade height and angle - you must pull or push a knob
on the side - I'm not sure, but it wasn't what I would
call sturdy.

I have been eyeing this saw vs. The Griz 1023S. From what
I have seen so far, I think I would get the green monster if I
bought one now.

Lou

On 2004-12-17 15:43:03 -0600, loutent said:

I went to Sears this afternoon to take a look - in particular
at the $950 (list) cabinet saw.

Much cheaper these days.

I was a lttle disappointed to tell you the truth. I didn't have
a lot of time, but there were a few things that jumped
out at me.

The first thing I went for was the Bies fence. Maybe I'm mis-
informed, but I was expecting a massive extruded aluminum
fence - the Biesmeyer labeled one that had on the machine
was some sort of phenolic (I guess the HMW stuff). When I
pressed the handle to lock it, the fence front jumped - is that
normal? To be honest, the Craftsman fence on the next lower
priced "contractor type" saw looked sturdier.

While a properly installed Bies may slide slightly when you lock it
down if it was not parallel, it should not jump. Perhaps it was not
installed properly. Properly installed, the Bies fence is much better
than the other contractor fences to which you are referring. The
Grizzly 1023 classic fence will certainly be more similar to the Bies
than the contractor fences.

Second, I turned the wheel that controls the blade height. Again,
I thought it was a little "dinkey" (?). Not much better than what's
on my 15 yr old $300 import.

Although the side handle/knob was missing, I got the
impression that the one control wheel adjusted BOTH the
blade height and angle - you must pull or push a knob
on the side - I'm not sure, but it wasn't what I would
call sturdy.

Your impression is wrong. There should be two wheels -- one for tilt
and one for height. This is what happens when a 16-year old sales
clerk puts together the display model.

I have been eyeing this saw vs. The Griz 1023S. From what
I have seen so far, I think I would get the green monster if I
bought one now.

I have owned a 1023S for 2-1/2 years and recently stopped by Sears, got down
on my hands and knees and looked inside of the new machine. I don't think
they compare well.

If you cannot get to a Grizzly store, give them a call. They will provide
the names and numbers of up to 2 people in your area that have made a
similar purchase lately. Go take a look a the Griz 1023, especially under
the table, and then look at the Sears machine. Also compare the use of
plastic vs metal in cabinet and other parts.

If you cannot do this, at least download the 1023 manual from Grizzly and
take it to Sears and visually compare the size of the trunnion castings with
the Sears. My impression when I open the metal motor cover on my Griz is
there is a motor and a lot of cast iron. When I open the plastic door on
the Sears machine I see mostly motor, acme screws and smaller amounts of
iron.

BTW, The ShopFox Classic fence on the 1023S is not aluminum. It is steel
and is solid as a rock.

Someone else already covered the topic but I never rely on a floor sample to
be representative of the product...especially in places like Sears. Even
Home Depot and Lowes don't always (almost never?) have their machines
properly assembled and adjusted.

"loutent" wrote in message
...
I went to Sears this afternoon to take a look - in particular
at the $950 (list) cabinet saw.

I was a lttle disappointed to tell you the truth. I didn't have
a lot of time, but there were a few things that jumped
out at me.

The first thing I went for was the Bies fence. Maybe I'm mis-
informed, but I was expecting a massive extruded aluminum
fence - the Biesmeyer labeled one that had on the machine
was some sort of phenolic (I guess the HMW stuff). When I
pressed the handle to lock it, the fence front jumped - is that
normal? To be honest, the Craftsman fence on the next lower
priced "contractor type" saw looked sturdier.

Second, I turned the wheel that controls the blade height. Again,
I thought it was a little "dinkey" (?). Not much better than what's
on my 15 yr old $300 import.

Although the side handle/knob was missing, I got the
impression that the one control wheel adjusted BOTH the
blade height and angle - you must pull or push a knob
on the side - I'm not sure, but it wasn't what I would
call sturdy.

I have been eyeing this saw vs. The Griz 1023S. From what
I have seen so far, I think I would get the green monster if I
bought one now.

Lou

Hi Ron,

I own a Grizzly 1.5 HP shaper (5+ years now) and it is everything
that is advertized. There is no plastic anywhere on this
machine. It "feels" like it will last forever - at least
in my small hobby/woodworking shop.

This was not my impression with the Craftsman. Before
I buy anything, I will definitely have a hands-on look
at some recent local Grizzly buyers. Thanks for your suggestion.

I figure the next TS I buy will be the last (gulp!). I want
it to last for 20 years or so (as long as I can get my wood
up onto it, so to speak).

No hurry with this.

Lou



In article KtJwd.12231$F25.10788@okepread07, RonB
wrote:


I have been eyeing this saw vs. The Griz 1023S. From what
I have seen so far, I think I would get the green monster if I
bought one now.

I have owned a 1023S for 2-1/2 years and recently stopped by Sears, got down
on my hands and knees and looked inside of the new machine. I don't think
they compare well.

If you cannot get to a Grizzly store, give them a call. They will provide
the names and numbers of up to 2 people in your area that have made a
similar purchase lately. Go take a look a the Griz 1023, especially under
the table, and then look at the Sears machine. Also compare the use of
plastic vs metal in cabinet and other parts.

If you cannot do this, at least download the 1023 manual from Grizzly and
take it to Sears and visually compare the size of the trunnion castings with
the Sears. My impression when I open the metal motor cover on my Griz is
there is a motor and a lot of cast iron. When I open the plastic door on
the Sears machine I see mostly motor, acme screws and smaller amounts of
iron.

BTW, The ShopFox Classic fence on the 1023S is not aluminum. It is steel
and is solid as a rock.

Chuck Hoffman wrote:

be representative of the product...especially in places like Sears. Even
Home Depot and Lowes don't always (almost never?) have their machines
properly assembled and adjusted.

Ain't that the truth. One reason I wound up with a Crapsman TS is because I
could at least check out the fence. The similarly priced Delta at Lowe's
had no fence whatsoever on display.

--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/
http://rosegarden.sourceforge.net/tutorial/

On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 16:43:03 -0500, loutent wrote:

I went to Sears this afternoon to take a look - in particular
at the $950 (list) cabinet saw.

I was a lttle disappointed to tell you the truth. I didn't have
a lot of time, but there were a few things that jumped
out at me.

The first thing I went for was the Bies fence. Maybe I'm mis-
informed, but I was expecting a massive extruded aluminum
fence - the Biesmeyer labeled one that had on the machine
was some sort of phenolic (I guess the HMW stuff).

The Bies fence I saw on the Sears looked like the one I saw
at Rockler's on one of the saws they were selling.

.... When I
pressed the handle to lock it, the fence front jumped - is that
normal? To be honest, the Craftsman fence on the next lower
priced "contractor type" saw looked sturdier.

The fence didn't "jump" on the sample I looked at.

Second, I turned the wheel that controls the blade height. Again,
I thought it was a little "dinkey" (?). Not much better than what's
on my 15 yr old $300 import.


It looked & felt large enough to me.

Although the side handle/knob was missing, I got the
impression that the one control wheel adjusted BOTH the
blade height and angle - you must pull or push a knob
on the side - I'm not sure, but it wasn't what I would
call sturdy.


There is a second wheel on the left-hand side
of the saw. But it is set further back than the ones
on other saws I've looked at.

I have been eyeing this saw vs. The Griz 1023S. From what
I have seen so far, I think I would get the green monster if I
bought one now.


You might want to take a closer look or find another
Sears to see what their's looks like.

Lessee...the Delta that is priced similar to the Craftsman (around $450) is
probably the 36-650. It has a reasonable fence but, IMO, not as good as the
one on the higher end Sears machines.

"Silvan" wrote in message
...
Chuck Hoffman wrote:

be representative of the product...especially in places like Sears.
Even
Home Depot and Lowes don't always (almost never?) have their machines
properly assembled and adjusted.

Ain't that the truth. One reason I wound up with a Crapsman TS is because
I
could at least check out the fence. The similarly priced Delta at Lowe's
had no fence whatsoever on display.

--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/
http://rosegarden.sourceforge.net/tutorial/

I just went through 2 to 3 months of comparing, bought a Grizzly 3 hp
1023SL and got it set up.

I must say that I am impressed with it. It is rock solid, high powered
and was fairly easy to get set up. The fence is extremely sturdy and
set up quick. It does not move at all once locked down.

I am upgrading from an old Sears contractor saw that I bought new 20
years ago and have fought many battles with over the years. If you can
afford it I would recommend the Grizzly. Both will probably work for
you but I can tell you the Grizz has enough power and iron to last
forever.

"RonB" wrote in message
news:KtJwd.12231$F25.10788@okepread07...
If you cannot get to a Grizzly store, give them a call. They will provide
the names and numbers of up to 2 people in your area that have made a
similar purchase lately.

First I've heard about this practice. Does Grizzly get a release for this?
Its getting where references are hard to get because of privacy issues. I'm
having a roof done by a major company in our area and they said they had to
stop giving references because of increased concerns about privacy issues.
They can tell you where a house is that they did but will not give a name
and number.

Bob

On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 16:43:03 -0500, loutent wrote:

I went to Sears this afternoon to take a look - in particular
at the $950 (list) cabinet saw.

I was a lttle disappointed to tell you the truth. I didn't have
a lot of time, but there were a few things that jumped
out at me.

The first thing I went for was the Bies fence. Maybe I'm mis-
informed, but I was expecting a massive extruded aluminum
fence - the Biesmeyer labeled one that had on the machine
was some sort of phenolic (I guess the HMW stuff). When I
pressed the handle to lock it, the fence front jumped - is that
normal? To be honest, the Craftsman fence on the next lower
priced "contractor type" saw looked sturdier.

Never even looked at the Craftsman saw...so my comments are only on
the Biesmeyer Fence...

I have used a Biesmeyer Fence on my saw for almost 15 years..
and it has NO Aluminum parts that I know of.... STEEL only

The sides are faced with a laminate...and after all these years they
still look like new...

JUMP... ????
If you have the fence... sitting on the table... loose .. and nowhere
close to being parallel to the blade or the miter slots ..

IT SURE WILL JUMP and it will jump into perfect alignment when you
push the locking lever down . which btw you only have to lower you
do not need to exert hardly any force to lock it down... .

I stopped looking at Fences the day I installed my Bies....just
absolutely no need to ...its been a joy to use all these years
can't remember how many years ago that I even had to think about
adjusting it never ...and I mean never has it locked down in anything
but dead on parallel to the blade...

That Said... mine was made long before Delta purchased Biesmeyer
and the patient expired long ago so there are plenty of clones on the
market

Bob Griffiths

Bob responds:

RonB" wrote in message
news:KtJwd.12231$F25.10788@okepread07...
If you cannot get to a Grizzly store, give them a call. They will provide
the names and numbers of up to 2 people in your area that have made a
similar purchase lately.

First I've heard about this practice. Does Grizzly get a release for this?
Its getting where references are hard to get because of privacy issues. I'm
having a roof done by a major company in our area and they said they had to
stop giving references because of increased concerns about privacy issues.
They can tell you where a house is that they did but will not give a name
and number.

Grizzly has been doing this for over a decade that I know of.

Sounds like your roofer had some reference problems that weren't to do with
privacy.

Charlie Self
"It is when power is wedded to chronic fear that it becomes formidable." Eric
Hoffer

Charlie Self wrote:

Grizzly has been doing this for over a decade that I know of.

Sounds like your roofer had some reference problems that weren't to do
with privacy.

Heh... Makes me think. The roofers who did Dad's roof must have read the
ad wrong, and they thought the job entailed reefer.

--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/
http://rosegarden.sourceforge.net/tutorial/

Yes. As I recall, when I ordered the saw they let you click a box on the
web order forms giving them permission to use your name and phone#. I did
allow it. I used the service prior to my purchase, but have never
personally had a call.

"Charlie Self" wrote in message
...
Bob responds:

Sounds like your roofer had some reference problems that weren't to do
with
privacy.

Nope. Their word-of-mouth reputation is excellent.

Bo

Bob responds:

"Charlie Self" wrote in message
...
Bob responds:

Sounds like your roofer had some reference problems that weren't to do
with
privacy.

Nope. Their word-of-mouth reputation is excellent.

Then I don't understand why he can't ask for permission from people for whom
he's worked and then use them as references.

Charlie Self
"It is when power is wedded to chronic fear that it becomes formidable." Eric
Hoffer

loutent wrote:
....
I have been eyeing this saw vs. The Griz 1023S. From what
I have seen so far, I think I would get the green monster if I
bought one now.

Personally, I'd run as fast as I could away from any power
Craftsman-branded stuff I could these days...

There was a review of contractor saws in Fine Woodworking just a few
issues ago that seemed pretty good...I'm not interested (I've a 20 yr
old Model 66) so I don't recall the "best buy" or "favorite" but I'll
see if I can find it although you can probably find it following links
at www.taunton.com.

"Charlie Self" wrote in message
...
Bob responds:

"Charlie Self" wrote in message
...
Bob responds:

Sounds like your roofer had some reference problems that weren't to do
with
privacy.

Nope. Their word-of-mouth reputation is excellent.

Then I don't understand why he can't ask for permission from people for
whom
he's worked and then use them as references.

Neither do I, Charlie. I had many meetings with two sales people (I'm doing
roof, siding and window replacement). These guys were pretty straight and
oriented toward doing first class work with top materials, rather than
cutting corners. One of them spent a lot of extra effort doing photos to
help us get $4000 reimbursement from previous shingle manufacturer for early
failure. The reference situation was a bit offputting. They did drive us
around to look at houses they had done in other areas. In the overall
picture, they gained my confidence enough to win the contracts and their
work thus far is superb (still in progress). They were the only bidders
that seemed to understand how much material my weird house would take for
materials. They showed up the first day with 100 tubes of caulk.

Bob

Duane Bozarth wrote:

loutent wrote:
...
I have been eyeing this saw vs. The Griz 1023S. From what
I have seen so far, I think I would get the green monster if I
bought one now.

Personally, I'd run as fast as I could away from any power
Craftsman-branded stuff I could these days...

There was a review of contractor saws in Fine Woodworking just a few
issues ago that seemed pretty good...I'm not interested (I've a 20 yr
old Model 66) so I don't recall the "best buy" or "favorite" but I'll
see if I can find it although you can probably find it following links
at www.taunton.com.

The review was a year ago...let's I recall Jet, Powermatic, Delta,
General,
Grizzly, ...man! I slept since then...any way there were 9 total.
General was the favorite of the mid-priced, Grizzly was about the bottom
(out of square base, table least flat, near highest runout). Delta
rated best quality value overall w/ the Powermatic (as usually the case)
also good quality but at the expensive end.

Then I don't understand why he can't ask for permission from people for
whom
he's worked and then use them as references.


Probably Lawyers.

Most prospective employers want you to provide a list of references for
employment with a resume or application. Problem is, many employers are
restricted by company policies on the level of information they are willing
to provide about a present or former employee. Liability and privacy laws.

... Grizzly was about the bottom (out of square base, table least flat,
near highest runout). Delta rated best quality value overall w/ the
Powermatic (as usually the case)
also good quality but at the expensive end.

Might have something to do with the fact that Griz does not advertise in
Fine Woodworking. Don't know whose choice it is but the Griz 1023 does well
in magazines in which the advertise.

Imagine that!


The 1023 also does well with independently submitted reviews by owners.
(WWA, e-opinion, amazon, various magazine forums, etc.) Owners like them
and some of them are seasoned woodworkers.

RonB wrote:

... Grizzly was about the bottom (out of square base, table least flat,
near highest runout). Delta rated best quality value overall w/ the
Powermatic (as usually the case)
also good quality but at the expensive end.

Might have something to do with the fact that Griz does not advertise in
Fine Woodworking. Don't know whose choice it is but the Griz 1023 does well
in magazines in which the advertise.

Imagine that!

The 1023 also does well with independently submitted reviews by owners.
(WWA, e-opinion, amazon, various magazine forums, etc.) Owners like them
and some of them are seasoned woodworkers.

Doubt seriously that had anything to do with this particular
review...data is data.

As for not advertising in FW, I know they have in the past although I
couldn't say as to which issue they have/have not or how recently (I
tend to remember specific topics, etc., although my time association
tends to get quite compressed). Such a decision (if they no longer do)
although might say something about their target market...

I suspect there's sufficient quality control issues with most of the
inexpensive imports that from one review to another there could easily
be sufficient variation to change precise order of results...there
have been some review where the "high-priced spread" has arrived at the
shop sadly out of adjustment or something as well--this has been
reported in reviews as well so I have no basis to think the FW reviews
as published are significantly influenced by advertising/advertisers.

On Mon, 20 Dec 2004 15:19:11 -0600, "RonB" wrote:


Might have something to do with the fact that Griz does not advertise in
Fine Woodworking. Don't know whose choice it is but the Griz 1023 does well
in magazines in which the advertise.

When Grizzly buys ads, boy do they buy a lot of space, and on the very
expensive pages.

I wonder why they pass on FWW?

Barry

On Mon, 20 Dec 2004 15:19:40 -0600, Duane Bozarth
wrote:


Such a decision (if they no longer do)
although might say something about their target market...


Grizzly buys a bunch of space in "Woodshop News", which is an entirely
different target than "'Murican Wooddorker" and "Family Handyman".

Maybe Taunton's prices are high?

Barry

Ba r r y wrote:

On Mon, 20 Dec 2004 15:19:11 -0600, "RonB" wrote:

Might have something to do with the fact that Griz does not advertise in
Fine Woodworking. Don't know whose choice it is but the Griz 1023 does well
in magazines in which the advertise.

When Grizzly buys ads, boy do they buy a lot of space, and on the very
expensive pages.

I wonder why they pass on FWW?

Dunno...cost (as you noted elsewhere) could be a logical conclusion but
perhaps it is simply trying to target more closely their perceived
market...

I picked up an old copy that I had laying on the table that I had an
article I was referring to and it did have a sizable spread...it turns
out to have been an early '99 issue. I haven't done any searching in
between although the 2003 issues that were handy didn't seem to have
any. Another thought...perhaps the economic slowdown caused them to
rein in and use scarce advertising dollars where the think to get more
return????

(All pure speculation, of course, I have no inside knowledge...)

I've never actually had my hands on any Grizzly altho I do know some
have reported happiness...from what I have seen, it appears that the
Yorkcraft appear to be good value if one is really looking for the
inexpensive or really constrained on initial purchase price.
Everytime I've bought anything except what I actually wanted, though,
I've ended up being so dissatisfied I've sold the cheaper and gotten the
"real thing" so it cost me even more because you can never sell it for
what you paid... I simply do w/o now until I can justify it (of
course, it's easier once one does have the basics, granted)...

No more than $0.01, omo, ymmv, ...

On Mon, 20 Dec 2004 18:48:32 -0600, Duane Bozarth
wrote:


Dunno...cost (as you noted elsewhere) could be a logical conclusion but
perhaps it is simply trying to target more closely their perceived
market...

What do you perceive Grizz's market to be?

(I'll make my point after you answer. G)

Barry

What do you perceive Grizz's market to be?


If I can interrupt, I think part of their market would be folks like me. I
grew up with the Unisaw having used them in high school shop and a college
level cabinet class. These were 60's and 70's vintage machines. When I
started shopping to update my old contractor's saw I was pretty well slanted
toward the Unisaw.

However, after looking at a couple of new unisaws (2-3 years ago) to say I
was disappointed would be understatement. Not the same machines I
remembered. Machining, handwheel locks, motor covers, etc, just not the
same. While I consider myself a pretty serious amateur, the $2,100 PM66 was
too much money. Jet provides a nice saw but it has some shortcomings,
particularly in the fences of some of their machines.

Enter, by accident, the 1023S. I was initially exposed by a cabinet shop
owner who owns one as a backup to his PM66's. Said he took a chance and now
finds it gets as much use as his Powermatics. Then a trip to Springfield to
get a first class demo on a 1023S. In many ways, this is the machine I
remember as a Unisaw, probably because it is reverse engineered. I will
listen to all of the stories about off shore engineering, castings, motors,
bearings etc. But after two years of ownership I need for someone to
convince me that the Unisaw is worth $500 to $600 more than the 1023s.
Grizzly, like any other tool-merchant, has great tools and some doggies.
But considering my experience with the 1023s, Grizzlies top-rate support and
the fact that several of the so called domestics are going the other
direction with quality, I will always consider them in my research for any
tool. It is no accident that they have a large industrial market for both
wood and metal tools.

Sorry - you got me goin'

I personally don't think there is that large of a price range between a saw
like the Griz 1023s and two of it's rivals - Unisaw and the Jet cabinet
saws.

When I started shopping, again, 2-3 years ago the 1023s was about $875 and
this bought the saw. Metal motor cover added about $30, taking the price to
a little over $900 (the machine is a little cheaper now, since they have a
left-tilter out).

At that time the only way I could find and price a Unisaw was with extended
rails and side table that frankly is too large for a lot of smaller shops.
At that time this package sold for about $1,499 and the Jet was in a
slightly lower price range.

When you hang extended rails and a table on the 1023s the price came up to
about $1,160 - $1,200 (with the motor cover too). About $250 - $300 less
than the Unisaw. Grzzly sells direct from three locations in the US. No
Wholesaler - tool shop - then customer distrubution that adds $$$. Grizzly
does advertise heavily in some of the wood magazines but not on national
media and they don't own guys like Norm. All things considered the price
difference at the warehouse probably isn't that different among the brands.

Ba r r y wrote:

On Mon, 20 Dec 2004 18:48:32 -0600, Duane Bozarth
wrote:

Dunno...cost (as you noted elsewhere) could be a logical conclusion but
perhaps it is simply trying to target more closely their perceived
market...

What do you perceive Grizz's market to be?

(I'll make my point after you answer. G)

Can't actually say what they actually think their market is...it
apparently isn't cost-effective to advertise in FW any longer...whether
that is target audience or simply absolute $$ I have no way of knowing
for sure. I'm sure it's a business decision based on what they see as
best for them...

I'm not denigrating Grizzly, I've never actually seen one--I just
reported what was in the particular review.

RonB wrote:

What do you perceive Grizz's market to be?


If I can interrupt, I think part of their market would be folks like me. I
grew up with the Unisaw having used them in high school shop and a college
level cabinet class. These were 60's and 70's vintage machines. When I
started shopping to update my old contractor's saw I was pretty well slanted
toward the Unisaw.

However, after looking at a couple of new unisaws (2-3 years ago) to say I
was disappointed would be understatement. Not the same machines I
remembered. Machining, handwheel locks, motor covers, etc, just not the
same. While I consider myself a pretty serious amateur, the $2,100 PM66 was
too much money. Jet provides a nice saw but it has some shortcomings,
particularly in the fences of some of their machines.
....

I agree that Delta has slipped drastically (as has PM to a somewhat
lesser degree, too, I think). It, unfortunately, is a "sign of the
times" that the large number of consumers look at $$ only and Delta has
moved towards the "consumer" market rather than remaining targetted
towards commercial customers primarily in order to grow their volume.

I waited until I could afford a PM66 (and was living in TN just down the
road from McMinnvilee so I saved shipping by picking it up) but that was
over 20 years ago now...even they aren't exactly like they used to be
although newer fences are actually nicer than my old style one that I've
not (yet) upgraded---can't bring myself to spend the $$$ they ask for
Biesmeyer, etc....

There is good value to be had w/ some of the imports I'm sure. I've
seen some Yorkcraft that I know are the identical as the current
Chinese-built Delta. In general their fit/finish has looked every bit
as good. In particular, I've been looking at the shapers to
replace/upgrade my old light-duty Delta--it's limited to 1/2" spindle.
If I can find a deal on an old PM Model 27 sometime, I'll jump, but so
far nothing has shown up close enough to be practical...

Duane Bozarth wrote:

Ba r r y wrote:
.....
(I'll make my point after you answer. G)
....
BTW (although I would have thought it obvious) I'm speaking only of the
small end stuff that would typically be something individuals or smaller
commercial shops would be looking at...I'm guessing you were planning to
try to sandbag me that Grizzly makes/sells (I don't know who actually
does their manufacturing) a full line including large commercial
equipment as well...

BTW (although I would have thought it obvious) I'm speaking only of the
small end stuff that would typically be something individuals or smaller
commercial shops would be looking at...I'm guessing you were planning to
try to sandbag me that Grizzly makes/sells (I don't know who actually
does their manufacturing) a full line including large commercial
equipment as well...

That would be my guess too. Because they do.

www.grizzly.com

This will get you to their catalogue too. Check out the companies to which
they sell wood and metal working machines.

RonB wrote:

....
That would be my guess too. Because they do.

www.grizzly.com

This will get you to their catalogue too. Check out the companies to which
they sell wood and metal working machines.

I have o need to...I know they are in that market, too...but that is
totally different animule than the $1k tablesaw that started this
(now widely off-topic, but that's ok) thread...

Now waiting for somebody to gripe about the "animule"...

On Tue, 21 Dec 2004 09:00:10 -0600, Duane Bozarth
wrote:


I'm not denigrating Grizzly, I've never actually seen one--I just
reported what was in the particular review.

I didn't mean the question as a positive / negative thing, I actually
think it all comes down to cost.

Why? American Woodworker, and Popular Woodworking seem to appeal to
beginning to intermediate amateur woodworkers. FWW's target market
seems to be intermediate to advanced amateurs, and some pros.

Grizzly also advertises in Wood Shop News, which is as straight out
"trade" as it gets, with little to interest an amateur.

Barry

On Mon, 20 Dec 2004 20:42:52 -0600, "RonB" wrote:


However, after looking at a couple of new unisaws (2-3 years ago) to say I
was disappointed would be understatement. Not the same machines I
remembered. Machining, handwheel locks, motor covers, etc, just not the
same.

That's why I bought a General. G

Barry

"Charlie Self" wrote in message
...

Sorry, that won't wash. A contractor is not going to ask for personal
references, but only to have people who are satisfied with his work make a
statement to that effect.

With the expansion of telephone solicitation, email spam, and junk mail
we've seen in the last two decades, more people are remiss to give out their
contact information for any purpose whatsoever. That doesn't have anything
to do with lawyers, but it often is labled as privacy.

Bob

BillyBob makes sense with:

"Charlie Self" wrote in message
...

Sorry, that won't wash. A contractor is not going to ask for personal
references, but only to have people who are satisfied with his work make a
statement to that effect.

With the expansion of telephone solicitation, email spam, and junk mail
we've seen in the last two decades, more people are remiss to give out their
contact information for any purpose whatsoever. That doesn't have anything
to do with lawyers, but it often is labled as privacy.

OK. That's understandable. But telephone solicitation is pretty much down the
tubes these days, so a phone call might be a decent way to get in touch. Email
has about reached the stage where it's pointless to email someone you don't
already know. Junk mail isn't really relevant in this case, but is minor
nuisance compared to the major PITA spam email brings on, and once almost
hourly interruptions provided by phone sales types.

Charlie Self
"Political language... is designed to make lies sound truthful and murder
respectable, and to give an appearance of solidity to pure wind." George Orwell

On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 04:22:09 GMT, "BillyBob"
wrote:


With the expansion of telephone solicitation, email spam, and junk mail
we've seen in the last two decades, more people are remiss to give out their
contact information for any purpose whatsoever. That doesn't have anything
to do with lawyers, but it often is labled as privacy.


If a contractor does a good job for us, we are very
happy to give him a reference: there are few enough
of them so it's a small way of saying thank you.

On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 14:10:12 -0500, GregP
wrote:

On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 04:22:09 GMT, "BillyBob"
wrote:


With the expansion of telephone solicitation, email spam, and junk mail
we've seen in the last two decades, more people are remiss to give out their
contact information for any purpose whatsoever. That doesn't have anything
to do with lawyers, but it often is labled as privacy.


If a contractor does a good job for us, we are very
happy to give him a reference: there are few enough
of them so it's a small way of saying thank you.


for the most part the work of a roofer (per OP) can be assessed from
the street. and if the person assessing has more questions, they can
go knock on the door.