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#1
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Under $1K TS: Craftsman vs the Green Monster
I went to Sears this afternoon to take a look - in particular
at the $950 (list) cabinet saw. I was a lttle disappointed to tell you the truth. I didn't have a lot of time, but there were a few things that jumped out at me. The first thing I went for was the Bies fence. Maybe I'm mis- informed, but I was expecting a massive extruded aluminum fence - the Biesmeyer labeled one that had on the machine was some sort of phenolic (I guess the HMW stuff). When I pressed the handle to lock it, the fence front jumped - is that normal? To be honest, the Craftsman fence on the next lower priced "contractor type" saw looked sturdier. Second, I turned the wheel that controls the blade height. Again, I thought it was a little "dinkey" (?). Not much better than what's on my 15 yr old $300 import. Although the side handle/knob was missing, I got the impression that the one control wheel adjusted BOTH the blade height and angle - you must pull or push a knob on the side - I'm not sure, but it wasn't what I would call sturdy. I have been eyeing this saw vs. The Griz 1023S. From what I have seen so far, I think I would get the green monster if I bought one now. Lou |
#2
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I think it would take more than a table saw to knock down all 37 feet of
green monster. "loutent" wrote in message ... I went to Sears this afternoon to take a look - in particular at the $950 (list) cabinet saw. I was a lttle disappointed to tell you the truth. I didn't have a lot of time, but there were a few things that jumped out at me. The first thing I went for was the Bies fence. Maybe I'm mis- informed, but I was expecting a massive extruded aluminum fence - the Biesmeyer labeled one that had on the machine was some sort of phenolic (I guess the HMW stuff). When I pressed the handle to lock it, the fence front jumped - is that normal? To be honest, the Craftsman fence on the next lower priced "contractor type" saw looked sturdier. Second, I turned the wheel that controls the blade height. Again, I thought it was a little "dinkey" (?). Not much better than what's on my 15 yr old $300 import. Although the side handle/knob was missing, I got the impression that the one control wheel adjusted BOTH the blade height and angle - you must pull or push a knob on the side - I'm not sure, but it wasn't what I would call sturdy. I have been eyeing this saw vs. The Griz 1023S. From what I have seen so far, I think I would get the green monster if I bought one now. Lou |
#3
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On 2004-12-17 15:43:03 -0600, loutent said:
I went to Sears this afternoon to take a look - in particular at the $950 (list) cabinet saw. Much cheaper these days. I was a lttle disappointed to tell you the truth. I didn't have a lot of time, but there were a few things that jumped out at me. The first thing I went for was the Bies fence. Maybe I'm mis- informed, but I was expecting a massive extruded aluminum fence - the Biesmeyer labeled one that had on the machine was some sort of phenolic (I guess the HMW stuff). When I pressed the handle to lock it, the fence front jumped - is that normal? To be honest, the Craftsman fence on the next lower priced "contractor type" saw looked sturdier. While a properly installed Bies may slide slightly when you lock it down if it was not parallel, it should not jump. Perhaps it was not installed properly. Properly installed, the Bies fence is much better than the other contractor fences to which you are referring. The Grizzly 1023 classic fence will certainly be more similar to the Bies than the contractor fences. Second, I turned the wheel that controls the blade height. Again, I thought it was a little "dinkey" (?). Not much better than what's on my 15 yr old $300 import. Although the side handle/knob was missing, I got the impression that the one control wheel adjusted BOTH the blade height and angle - you must pull or push a knob on the side - I'm not sure, but it wasn't what I would call sturdy. Your impression is wrong. There should be two wheels -- one for tilt and one for height. This is what happens when a 16-year old sales clerk puts together the display model. |
#4
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I have been eyeing this saw vs. The Griz 1023S. From what I have seen so far, I think I would get the green monster if I bought one now. I have owned a 1023S for 2-1/2 years and recently stopped by Sears, got down on my hands and knees and looked inside of the new machine. I don't think they compare well. If you cannot get to a Grizzly store, give them a call. They will provide the names and numbers of up to 2 people in your area that have made a similar purchase lately. Go take a look a the Griz 1023, especially under the table, and then look at the Sears machine. Also compare the use of plastic vs metal in cabinet and other parts. If you cannot do this, at least download the 1023 manual from Grizzly and take it to Sears and visually compare the size of the trunnion castings with the Sears. My impression when I open the metal motor cover on my Griz is there is a motor and a lot of cast iron. When I open the plastic door on the Sears machine I see mostly motor, acme screws and smaller amounts of iron. BTW, The ShopFox Classic fence on the 1023S is not aluminum. It is steel and is solid as a rock. |
#5
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Hi Ron,
I own a Grizzly 1.5 HP shaper (5+ years now) and it is everything that is advertized. There is no plastic anywhere on this machine. It "feels" like it will last forever - at least in my small hobby/woodworking shop. This was not my impression with the Craftsman. Before I buy anything, I will definitely have a hands-on look at some recent local Grizzly buyers. Thanks for your suggestion. I figure the next TS I buy will be the last (gulp!). I want it to last for 20 years or so (as long as I can get my wood up onto it, so to speak). No hurry with this. Lou In article KtJwd.12231$F25.10788@okepread07, RonB wrote: I have been eyeing this saw vs. The Griz 1023S. From what I have seen so far, I think I would get the green monster if I bought one now. I have owned a 1023S for 2-1/2 years and recently stopped by Sears, got down on my hands and knees and looked inside of the new machine. I don't think they compare well. If you cannot get to a Grizzly store, give them a call. They will provide the names and numbers of up to 2 people in your area that have made a similar purchase lately. Go take a look a the Griz 1023, especially under the table, and then look at the Sears machine. Also compare the use of plastic vs metal in cabinet and other parts. If you cannot do this, at least download the 1023 manual from Grizzly and take it to Sears and visually compare the size of the trunnion castings with the Sears. My impression when I open the metal motor cover on my Griz is there is a motor and a lot of cast iron. When I open the plastic door on the Sears machine I see mostly motor, acme screws and smaller amounts of iron. BTW, The ShopFox Classic fence on the 1023S is not aluminum. It is steel and is solid as a rock. |
#6
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"RonB" wrote in message news:KtJwd.12231$F25.10788@okepread07... If you cannot get to a Grizzly store, give them a call. They will provide the names and numbers of up to 2 people in your area that have made a similar purchase lately. First I've heard about this practice. Does Grizzly get a release for this? Its getting where references are hard to get because of privacy issues. I'm having a roof done by a major company in our area and they said they had to stop giving references because of increased concerns about privacy issues. They can tell you where a house is that they did but will not give a name and number. Bob |
#7
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Bob responds:
RonB" wrote in message news:KtJwd.12231$F25.10788@okepread07... If you cannot get to a Grizzly store, give them a call. They will provide the names and numbers of up to 2 people in your area that have made a similar purchase lately. First I've heard about this practice. Does Grizzly get a release for this? Its getting where references are hard to get because of privacy issues. I'm having a roof done by a major company in our area and they said they had to stop giving references because of increased concerns about privacy issues. They can tell you where a house is that they did but will not give a name and number. Grizzly has been doing this for over a decade that I know of. Sounds like your roofer had some reference problems that weren't to do with privacy. Charlie Self "It is when power is wedded to chronic fear that it becomes formidable." Eric Hoffer |
#8
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Charlie Self wrote:
Grizzly has been doing this for over a decade that I know of. Sounds like your roofer had some reference problems that weren't to do with privacy. Heh... Makes me think. The roofers who did Dad's roof must have read the ad wrong, and they thought the job entailed reefer. -- Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621 http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/ http://rosegarden.sourceforge.net/tutorial/ |
#9
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"Charlie Self" wrote in message ... Bob responds: Sounds like your roofer had some reference problems that weren't to do with privacy. Nope. Their word-of-mouth reputation is excellent. Bo |
#10
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Bob responds:
"Charlie Self" wrote in message ... Bob responds: Sounds like your roofer had some reference problems that weren't to do with privacy. Nope. Their word-of-mouth reputation is excellent. Then I don't understand why he can't ask for permission from people for whom he's worked and then use them as references. Charlie Self "It is when power is wedded to chronic fear that it becomes formidable." Eric Hoffer |
#11
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Yes. As I recall, when I ordered the saw they let you click a box on the
web order forms giving them permission to use your name and phone#. I did allow it. I used the service prior to my purchase, but have never personally had a call. |
#12
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Someone else already covered the topic but I never rely on a floor sample to
be representative of the product...especially in places like Sears. Even Home Depot and Lowes don't always (almost never?) have their machines properly assembled and adjusted. "loutent" wrote in message ... I went to Sears this afternoon to take a look - in particular at the $950 (list) cabinet saw. I was a lttle disappointed to tell you the truth. I didn't have a lot of time, but there were a few things that jumped out at me. The first thing I went for was the Bies fence. Maybe I'm mis- informed, but I was expecting a massive extruded aluminum fence - the Biesmeyer labeled one that had on the machine was some sort of phenolic (I guess the HMW stuff). When I pressed the handle to lock it, the fence front jumped - is that normal? To be honest, the Craftsman fence on the next lower priced "contractor type" saw looked sturdier. Second, I turned the wheel that controls the blade height. Again, I thought it was a little "dinkey" (?). Not much better than what's on my 15 yr old $300 import. Although the side handle/knob was missing, I got the impression that the one control wheel adjusted BOTH the blade height and angle - you must pull or push a knob on the side - I'm not sure, but it wasn't what I would call sturdy. I have been eyeing this saw vs. The Griz 1023S. From what I have seen so far, I think I would get the green monster if I bought one now. Lou |
#13
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Chuck Hoffman wrote:
be representative of the product...especially in places like Sears. Even Home Depot and Lowes don't always (almost never?) have their machines properly assembled and adjusted. Ain't that the truth. One reason I wound up with a Crapsman TS is because I could at least check out the fence. The similarly priced Delta at Lowe's had no fence whatsoever on display. -- Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621 http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/ http://rosegarden.sourceforge.net/tutorial/ |
#14
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Lessee...the Delta that is priced similar to the Craftsman (around $450) is
probably the 36-650. It has a reasonable fence but, IMO, not as good as the one on the higher end Sears machines. "Silvan" wrote in message ... Chuck Hoffman wrote: be representative of the product...especially in places like Sears. Even Home Depot and Lowes don't always (almost never?) have their machines properly assembled and adjusted. Ain't that the truth. One reason I wound up with a Crapsman TS is because I could at least check out the fence. The similarly priced Delta at Lowe's had no fence whatsoever on display. -- Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621 http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/ http://rosegarden.sourceforge.net/tutorial/ |
#15
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On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 16:43:03 -0500, loutent wrote:
I went to Sears this afternoon to take a look - in particular at the $950 (list) cabinet saw. I was a lttle disappointed to tell you the truth. I didn't have a lot of time, but there were a few things that jumped out at me. The first thing I went for was the Bies fence. Maybe I'm mis- informed, but I was expecting a massive extruded aluminum fence - the Biesmeyer labeled one that had on the machine was some sort of phenolic (I guess the HMW stuff). The Bies fence I saw on the Sears looked like the one I saw at Rockler's on one of the saws they were selling. .... When I pressed the handle to lock it, the fence front jumped - is that normal? To be honest, the Craftsman fence on the next lower priced "contractor type" saw looked sturdier. The fence didn't "jump" on the sample I looked at. Second, I turned the wheel that controls the blade height. Again, I thought it was a little "dinkey" (?). Not much better than what's on my 15 yr old $300 import. It looked & felt large enough to me. Although the side handle/knob was missing, I got the impression that the one control wheel adjusted BOTH the blade height and angle - you must pull or push a knob on the side - I'm not sure, but it wasn't what I would call sturdy. There is a second wheel on the left-hand side of the saw. But it is set further back than the ones on other saws I've looked at. I have been eyeing this saw vs. The Griz 1023S. From what I have seen so far, I think I would get the green monster if I bought one now. You might want to take a closer look or find another Sears to see what their's looks like. |
#16
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I just went through 2 to 3 months of comparing, bought a Grizzly 3 hp
1023SL and got it set up. I must say that I am impressed with it. It is rock solid, high powered and was fairly easy to get set up. The fence is extremely sturdy and set up quick. It does not move at all once locked down. I am upgrading from an old Sears contractor saw that I bought new 20 years ago and have fought many battles with over the years. If you can afford it I would recommend the Grizzly. Both will probably work for you but I can tell you the Grizz has enough power and iron to last forever. |
#17
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On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 16:43:03 -0500, loutent wrote:
I went to Sears this afternoon to take a look - in particular at the $950 (list) cabinet saw. I was a lttle disappointed to tell you the truth. I didn't have a lot of time, but there were a few things that jumped out at me. The first thing I went for was the Bies fence. Maybe I'm mis- informed, but I was expecting a massive extruded aluminum fence - the Biesmeyer labeled one that had on the machine was some sort of phenolic (I guess the HMW stuff). When I pressed the handle to lock it, the fence front jumped - is that normal? To be honest, the Craftsman fence on the next lower priced "contractor type" saw looked sturdier. Never even looked at the Craftsman saw...so my comments are only on the Biesmeyer Fence... I have used a Biesmeyer Fence on my saw for almost 15 years.. and it has NO Aluminum parts that I know of.... STEEL only The sides are faced with a laminate...and after all these years they still look like new... JUMP... ???? If you have the fence... sitting on the table... loose .. and nowhere close to being parallel to the blade or the miter slots .. IT SURE WILL JUMP and it will jump into perfect alignment when you push the locking lever down . which btw you only have to lower you do not need to exert hardly any force to lock it down... . I stopped looking at Fences the day I installed my Bies....just absolutely no need to ...its been a joy to use all these years can't remember how many years ago that I even had to think about adjusting it never ...and I mean never has it locked down in anything but dead on parallel to the blade... That Said... mine was made long before Delta purchased Biesmeyer and the patient expired long ago so there are plenty of clones on the market Bob Griffiths |
#18
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loutent wrote:
.... I have been eyeing this saw vs. The Griz 1023S. From what I have seen so far, I think I would get the green monster if I bought one now. Personally, I'd run as fast as I could away from any power Craftsman-branded stuff I could these days... There was a review of contractor saws in Fine Woodworking just a few issues ago that seemed pretty good...I'm not interested (I've a 20 yr old Model 66) so I don't recall the "best buy" or "favorite" but I'll see if I can find it although you can probably find it following links at www.taunton.com. |
#19
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Duane Bozarth wrote:
loutent wrote: ... I have been eyeing this saw vs. The Griz 1023S. From what I have seen so far, I think I would get the green monster if I bought one now. Personally, I'd run as fast as I could away from any power Craftsman-branded stuff I could these days... There was a review of contractor saws in Fine Woodworking just a few issues ago that seemed pretty good...I'm not interested (I've a 20 yr old Model 66) so I don't recall the "best buy" or "favorite" but I'll see if I can find it although you can probably find it following links at www.taunton.com. The review was a year ago...let's I recall Jet, Powermatic, Delta, General, Grizzly, ...man! I slept since then...any way there were 9 total. General was the favorite of the mid-priced, Grizzly was about the bottom (out of square base, table least flat, near highest runout). Delta rated best quality value overall w/ the Powermatic (as usually the case) also good quality but at the expensive end. |
#20
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... Grizzly was about the bottom (out of square base, table least flat,
near highest runout). Delta rated best quality value overall w/ the Powermatic (as usually the case) also good quality but at the expensive end. Might have something to do with the fact that Griz does not advertise in Fine Woodworking. Don't know whose choice it is but the Griz 1023 does well in magazines in which the advertise. Imagine that! The 1023 also does well with independently submitted reviews by owners. (WWA, e-opinion, amazon, various magazine forums, etc.) Owners like them and some of them are seasoned woodworkers. |
#21
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RonB wrote:
... Grizzly was about the bottom (out of square base, table least flat, near highest runout). Delta rated best quality value overall w/ the Powermatic (as usually the case) also good quality but at the expensive end. Might have something to do with the fact that Griz does not advertise in Fine Woodworking. Don't know whose choice it is but the Griz 1023 does well in magazines in which the advertise. Imagine that! The 1023 also does well with independently submitted reviews by owners. (WWA, e-opinion, amazon, various magazine forums, etc.) Owners like them and some of them are seasoned woodworkers. Doubt seriously that had anything to do with this particular review...data is data. As for not advertising in FW, I know they have in the past although I couldn't say as to which issue they have/have not or how recently (I tend to remember specific topics, etc., although my time association tends to get quite compressed). Such a decision (if they no longer do) although might say something about their target market... I suspect there's sufficient quality control issues with most of the inexpensive imports that from one review to another there could easily be sufficient variation to change precise order of results...there have been some review where the "high-priced spread" has arrived at the shop sadly out of adjustment or something as well--this has been reported in reviews as well so I have no basis to think the FW reviews as published are significantly influenced by advertising/advertisers. |
#22
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On Mon, 20 Dec 2004 15:19:40 -0600, Duane Bozarth
wrote: Such a decision (if they no longer do) although might say something about their target market... Grizzly buys a bunch of space in "Woodshop News", which is an entirely different target than "'Murican Wooddorker" and "Family Handyman". Maybe Taunton's prices are high? Barry |
#23
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On Mon, 20 Dec 2004 15:19:11 -0600, "RonB" wrote:
Might have something to do with the fact that Griz does not advertise in Fine Woodworking. Don't know whose choice it is but the Griz 1023 does well in magazines in which the advertise. When Grizzly buys ads, boy do they buy a lot of space, and on the very expensive pages. I wonder why they pass on FWW? Barry |
#24
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Ba r r y wrote:
On Mon, 20 Dec 2004 15:19:11 -0600, "RonB" wrote: Might have something to do with the fact that Griz does not advertise in Fine Woodworking. Don't know whose choice it is but the Griz 1023 does well in magazines in which the advertise. When Grizzly buys ads, boy do they buy a lot of space, and on the very expensive pages. I wonder why they pass on FWW? Dunno...cost (as you noted elsewhere) could be a logical conclusion but perhaps it is simply trying to target more closely their perceived market... I picked up an old copy that I had laying on the table that I had an article I was referring to and it did have a sizable spread...it turns out to have been an early '99 issue. I haven't done any searching in between although the 2003 issues that were handy didn't seem to have any. Another thought...perhaps the economic slowdown caused them to rein in and use scarce advertising dollars where the think to get more return???? (All pure speculation, of course, I have no inside knowledge...) I've never actually had my hands on any Grizzly altho I do know some have reported happiness...from what I have seen, it appears that the Yorkcraft appear to be good value if one is really looking for the inexpensive or really constrained on initial purchase price. Everytime I've bought anything except what I actually wanted, though, I've ended up being so dissatisfied I've sold the cheaper and gotten the "real thing" so it cost me even more because you can never sell it for what you paid... I simply do w/o now until I can justify it (of course, it's easier once one does have the basics, granted)... No more than $0.01, omo, ymmv, ... |
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