I went to Sears this afternoon to take a look - in particular
at the $950 (list) cabinet saw.

I was a lttle disappointed to tell you the truth. I didn't have
a lot of time, but there were a few things that jumped
out at me.

The first thing I went for was the Bies fence. Maybe I'm mis-
informed, but I was expecting a massive extruded aluminum
fence - the Biesmeyer labeled one that had on the machine
was some sort of phenolic (I guess the HMW stuff). When I
pressed the handle to lock it, the fence front jumped - is that
normal? To be honest, the Craftsman fence on the next lower
priced "contractor type" saw looked sturdier.

Second, I turned the wheel that controls the blade height. Again,
I thought it was a little "dinkey" (?). Not much better than what's
on my 15 yr old $300 import.

Although the side handle/knob was missing, I got the
impression that the one control wheel adjusted BOTH the
blade height and angle - you must pull or push a knob
on the side - I'm not sure, but it wasn't what I would
call sturdy.

I have been eyeing this saw vs. The Griz 1023S. From what
I have seen so far, I think I would get the green monster if I
bought one now.

Lou

I think it would take more than a table saw to knock down all 37 feet of
green monster.


"loutent" wrote in message
...
I went to Sears this afternoon to take a look - in particular
at the $950 (list) cabinet saw.

I was a lttle disappointed to tell you the truth. I didn't have
a lot of time, but there were a few things that jumped
out at me.

The first thing I went for was the Bies fence. Maybe I'm mis-
informed, but I was expecting a massive extruded aluminum
fence - the Biesmeyer labeled one that had on the machine
was some sort of phenolic (I guess the HMW stuff). When I
pressed the handle to lock it, the fence front jumped - is that
normal? To be honest, the Craftsman fence on the next lower
priced "contractor type" saw looked sturdier.

Second, I turned the wheel that controls the blade height. Again,
I thought it was a little "dinkey" (?). Not much better than what's
on my 15 yr old $300 import.

Although the side handle/knob was missing, I got the
impression that the one control wheel adjusted BOTH the
blade height and angle - you must pull or push a knob
on the side - I'm not sure, but it wasn't what I would
call sturdy.

I have been eyeing this saw vs. The Griz 1023S. From what
I have seen so far, I think I would get the green monster if I
bought one now.

Lou

On 2004-12-17 15:43:03 -0600, loutent said:

I went to Sears this afternoon to take a look - in particular
at the $950 (list) cabinet saw.

Much cheaper these days.

I was a lttle disappointed to tell you the truth. I didn't have
a lot of time, but there were a few things that jumped
out at me.

The first thing I went for was the Bies fence. Maybe I'm mis-
informed, but I was expecting a massive extruded aluminum
fence - the Biesmeyer labeled one that had on the machine
was some sort of phenolic (I guess the HMW stuff). When I
pressed the handle to lock it, the fence front jumped - is that
normal? To be honest, the Craftsman fence on the next lower
priced "contractor type" saw looked sturdier.

While a properly installed Bies may slide slightly when you lock it
down if it was not parallel, it should not jump. Perhaps it was not
installed properly. Properly installed, the Bies fence is much better
than the other contractor fences to which you are referring. The
Grizzly 1023 classic fence will certainly be more similar to the Bies
than the contractor fences.

Second, I turned the wheel that controls the blade height. Again,
I thought it was a little "dinkey" (?). Not much better than what's
on my 15 yr old $300 import.

Although the side handle/knob was missing, I got the
impression that the one control wheel adjusted BOTH the
blade height and angle - you must pull or push a knob
on the side - I'm not sure, but it wasn't what I would
call sturdy.

Your impression is wrong. There should be two wheels -- one for tilt
and one for height. This is what happens when a 16-year old sales
clerk puts together the display model.

I have been eyeing this saw vs. The Griz 1023S. From what
I have seen so far, I think I would get the green monster if I
bought one now.

I have owned a 1023S for 2-1/2 years and recently stopped by Sears, got down
on my hands and knees and looked inside of the new machine. I don't think
they compare well.

If you cannot get to a Grizzly store, give them a call. They will provide
the names and numbers of up to 2 people in your area that have made a
similar purchase lately. Go take a look a the Griz 1023, especially under
the table, and then look at the Sears machine. Also compare the use of
plastic vs metal in cabinet and other parts.

If you cannot do this, at least download the 1023 manual from Grizzly and
take it to Sears and visually compare the size of the trunnion castings with
the Sears. My impression when I open the metal motor cover on my Griz is
there is a motor and a lot of cast iron. When I open the plastic door on
the Sears machine I see mostly motor, acme screws and smaller amounts of
iron.

BTW, The ShopFox Classic fence on the 1023S is not aluminum. It is steel
and is solid as a rock.

Hi Ron,

I own a Grizzly 1.5 HP shaper (5+ years now) and it is everything
that is advertized. There is no plastic anywhere on this
machine. It "feels" like it will last forever - at least
in my small hobby/woodworking shop.

This was not my impression with the Craftsman. Before
I buy anything, I will definitely have a hands-on look
at some recent local Grizzly buyers. Thanks for your suggestion.

I figure the next TS I buy will be the last (gulp!). I want
it to last for 20 years or so (as long as I can get my wood
up onto it, so to speak).

No hurry with this.

Lou



In article KtJwd.12231$F25.10788@okepread07, RonB
wrote:


I have been eyeing this saw vs. The Griz 1023S. From what
I have seen so far, I think I would get the green monster if I
bought one now.

I have owned a 1023S for 2-1/2 years and recently stopped by Sears, got down
on my hands and knees and looked inside of the new machine. I don't think
they compare well.

If you cannot get to a Grizzly store, give them a call. They will provide
the names and numbers of up to 2 people in your area that have made a
similar purchase lately. Go take a look a the Griz 1023, especially under
the table, and then look at the Sears machine. Also compare the use of
plastic vs metal in cabinet and other parts.

If you cannot do this, at least download the 1023 manual from Grizzly and
take it to Sears and visually compare the size of the trunnion castings with
the Sears. My impression when I open the metal motor cover on my Griz is
there is a motor and a lot of cast iron. When I open the plastic door on
the Sears machine I see mostly motor, acme screws and smaller amounts of
iron.

BTW, The ShopFox Classic fence on the 1023S is not aluminum. It is steel
and is solid as a rock.

"RonB" wrote in message
news:KtJwd.12231$F25.10788@okepread07...
If you cannot get to a Grizzly store, give them a call. They will provide
the names and numbers of up to 2 people in your area that have made a
similar purchase lately.

First I've heard about this practice. Does Grizzly get a release for this?
Its getting where references are hard to get because of privacy issues. I'm
having a roof done by a major company in our area and they said they had to
stop giving references because of increased concerns about privacy issues.
They can tell you where a house is that they did but will not give a name
and number.

Bob

Bob responds:

RonB" wrote in message
news:KtJwd.12231$F25.10788@okepread07...
If you cannot get to a Grizzly store, give them a call. They will provide
the names and numbers of up to 2 people in your area that have made a
similar purchase lately.

First I've heard about this practice. Does Grizzly get a release for this?
Its getting where references are hard to get because of privacy issues. I'm
having a roof done by a major company in our area and they said they had to
stop giving references because of increased concerns about privacy issues.
They can tell you where a house is that they did but will not give a name
and number.

Grizzly has been doing this for over a decade that I know of.

Sounds like your roofer had some reference problems that weren't to do with
privacy.

Charlie Self
"It is when power is wedded to chronic fear that it becomes formidable." Eric
Hoffer

Charlie Self wrote:

Grizzly has been doing this for over a decade that I know of.

Sounds like your roofer had some reference problems that weren't to do
with privacy.

Heh... Makes me think. The roofers who did Dad's roof must have read the
ad wrong, and they thought the job entailed reefer.

--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/
http://rosegarden.sourceforge.net/tutorial/

"Charlie Self" wrote in message
...
Bob responds:

Sounds like your roofer had some reference problems that weren't to do
with
privacy.

Nope. Their word-of-mouth reputation is excellent.

Bo

Bob responds:

"Charlie Self" wrote in message
...
Bob responds:

Sounds like your roofer had some reference problems that weren't to do
with
privacy.

Nope. Their word-of-mouth reputation is excellent.

Then I don't understand why he can't ask for permission from people for whom
he's worked and then use them as references.

Charlie Self
"It is when power is wedded to chronic fear that it becomes formidable." Eric
Hoffer

Yes. As I recall, when I ordered the saw they let you click a box on the
web order forms giving them permission to use your name and phone#. I did
allow it. I used the service prior to my purchase, but have never
personally had a call.

Someone else already covered the topic but I never rely on a floor sample to
be representative of the product...especially in places like Sears. Even
Home Depot and Lowes don't always (almost never?) have their machines
properly assembled and adjusted.

"loutent" wrote in message
...
I went to Sears this afternoon to take a look - in particular
at the $950 (list) cabinet saw.

I was a lttle disappointed to tell you the truth. I didn't have
a lot of time, but there were a few things that jumped
out at me.

The first thing I went for was the Bies fence. Maybe I'm mis-
informed, but I was expecting a massive extruded aluminum
fence - the Biesmeyer labeled one that had on the machine
was some sort of phenolic (I guess the HMW stuff). When I
pressed the handle to lock it, the fence front jumped - is that
normal? To be honest, the Craftsman fence on the next lower
priced "contractor type" saw looked sturdier.

Second, I turned the wheel that controls the blade height. Again,
I thought it was a little "dinkey" (?). Not much better than what's
on my 15 yr old $300 import.

Although the side handle/knob was missing, I got the
impression that the one control wheel adjusted BOTH the
blade height and angle - you must pull or push a knob
on the side - I'm not sure, but it wasn't what I would
call sturdy.

I have been eyeing this saw vs. The Griz 1023S. From what
I have seen so far, I think I would get the green monster if I
bought one now.

Lou

Chuck Hoffman wrote:

be representative of the product...especially in places like Sears. Even
Home Depot and Lowes don't always (almost never?) have their machines
properly assembled and adjusted.

Ain't that the truth. One reason I wound up with a Crapsman TS is because I
could at least check out the fence. The similarly priced Delta at Lowe's
had no fence whatsoever on display.

--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/
http://rosegarden.sourceforge.net/tutorial/

Lessee...the Delta that is priced similar to the Craftsman (around $450) is
probably the 36-650. It has a reasonable fence but, IMO, not as good as the
one on the higher end Sears machines.

"Silvan" wrote in message
...
Chuck Hoffman wrote:

be representative of the product...especially in places like Sears.
Even
Home Depot and Lowes don't always (almost never?) have their machines
properly assembled and adjusted.

Ain't that the truth. One reason I wound up with a Crapsman TS is because
I
could at least check out the fence. The similarly priced Delta at Lowe's
had no fence whatsoever on display.

--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/
http://rosegarden.sourceforge.net/tutorial/

On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 16:43:03 -0500, loutent wrote:

I went to Sears this afternoon to take a look - in particular
at the $950 (list) cabinet saw.

I was a lttle disappointed to tell you the truth. I didn't have
a lot of time, but there were a few things that jumped
out at me.

The first thing I went for was the Bies fence. Maybe I'm mis-
informed, but I was expecting a massive extruded aluminum
fence - the Biesmeyer labeled one that had on the machine
was some sort of phenolic (I guess the HMW stuff).

The Bies fence I saw on the Sears looked like the one I saw
at Rockler's on one of the saws they were selling.

.... When I
pressed the handle to lock it, the fence front jumped - is that
normal? To be honest, the Craftsman fence on the next lower
priced "contractor type" saw looked sturdier.

The fence didn't "jump" on the sample I looked at.

Second, I turned the wheel that controls the blade height. Again,
I thought it was a little "dinkey" (?). Not much better than what's
on my 15 yr old $300 import.


It looked & felt large enough to me.

Although the side handle/knob was missing, I got the
impression that the one control wheel adjusted BOTH the
blade height and angle - you must pull or push a knob
on the side - I'm not sure, but it wasn't what I would
call sturdy.


There is a second wheel on the left-hand side
of the saw. But it is set further back than the ones
on other saws I've looked at.

I have been eyeing this saw vs. The Griz 1023S. From what
I have seen so far, I think I would get the green monster if I
bought one now.


You might want to take a closer look or find another
Sears to see what their's looks like.

I just went through 2 to 3 months of comparing, bought a Grizzly 3 hp
1023SL and got it set up.

I must say that I am impressed with it. It is rock solid, high powered
and was fairly easy to get set up. The fence is extremely sturdy and
set up quick. It does not move at all once locked down.

I am upgrading from an old Sears contractor saw that I bought new 20
years ago and have fought many battles with over the years. If you can
afford it I would recommend the Grizzly. Both will probably work for
you but I can tell you the Grizz has enough power and iron to last
forever.

On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 16:43:03 -0500, loutent wrote:

I went to Sears this afternoon to take a look - in particular
at the $950 (list) cabinet saw.

I was a lttle disappointed to tell you the truth. I didn't have
a lot of time, but there were a few things that jumped
out at me.

The first thing I went for was the Bies fence. Maybe I'm mis-
informed, but I was expecting a massive extruded aluminum
fence - the Biesmeyer labeled one that had on the machine
was some sort of phenolic (I guess the HMW stuff). When I
pressed the handle to lock it, the fence front jumped - is that
normal? To be honest, the Craftsman fence on the next lower
priced "contractor type" saw looked sturdier.

Never even looked at the Craftsman saw...so my comments are only on
the Biesmeyer Fence...

I have used a Biesmeyer Fence on my saw for almost 15 years..
and it has NO Aluminum parts that I know of.... STEEL only

The sides are faced with a laminate...and after all these years they
still look like new...

JUMP... ????
If you have the fence... sitting on the table... loose .. and nowhere
close to being parallel to the blade or the miter slots ..

IT SURE WILL JUMP and it will jump into perfect alignment when you
push the locking lever down . which btw you only have to lower you
do not need to exert hardly any force to lock it down... .

I stopped looking at Fences the day I installed my Bies....just
absolutely no need to ...its been a joy to use all these years
can't remember how many years ago that I even had to think about
adjusting it never ...and I mean never has it locked down in anything
but dead on parallel to the blade...

That Said... mine was made long before Delta purchased Biesmeyer
and the patient expired long ago so there are plenty of clones on the
market

Bob Griffiths

loutent wrote:
....
I have been eyeing this saw vs. The Griz 1023S. From what
I have seen so far, I think I would get the green monster if I
bought one now.

Personally, I'd run as fast as I could away from any power
Craftsman-branded stuff I could these days...

There was a review of contractor saws in Fine Woodworking just a few
issues ago that seemed pretty good...I'm not interested (I've a 20 yr
old Model 66) so I don't recall the "best buy" or "favorite" but I'll
see if I can find it although you can probably find it following links
at www.taunton.com.

Duane Bozarth wrote:

loutent wrote:
...
I have been eyeing this saw vs. The Griz 1023S. From what
I have seen so far, I think I would get the green monster if I
bought one now.

Personally, I'd run as fast as I could away from any power
Craftsman-branded stuff I could these days...

There was a review of contractor saws in Fine Woodworking just a few
issues ago that seemed pretty good...I'm not interested (I've a 20 yr
old Model 66) so I don't recall the "best buy" or "favorite" but I'll
see if I can find it although you can probably find it following links
at www.taunton.com.

The review was a year ago...let's I recall Jet, Powermatic, Delta,
General,
Grizzly, ...man! I slept since then...any way there were 9 total.
General was the favorite of the mid-priced, Grizzly was about the bottom
(out of square base, table least flat, near highest runout). Delta
rated best quality value overall w/ the Powermatic (as usually the case)
also good quality but at the expensive end.

... Grizzly was about the bottom (out of square base, table least flat,
near highest runout). Delta rated best quality value overall w/ the
Powermatic (as usually the case)
also good quality but at the expensive end.

Might have something to do with the fact that Griz does not advertise in
Fine Woodworking. Don't know whose choice it is but the Griz 1023 does well
in magazines in which the advertise.

Imagine that!


The 1023 also does well with independently submitted reviews by owners.
(WWA, e-opinion, amazon, various magazine forums, etc.) Owners like them
and some of them are seasoned woodworkers.

RonB wrote:

... Grizzly was about the bottom (out of square base, table least flat,
near highest runout). Delta rated best quality value overall w/ the
Powermatic (as usually the case)
also good quality but at the expensive end.

Might have something to do with the fact that Griz does not advertise in
Fine Woodworking. Don't know whose choice it is but the Griz 1023 does well
in magazines in which the advertise.

Imagine that!

The 1023 also does well with independently submitted reviews by owners.
(WWA, e-opinion, amazon, various magazine forums, etc.) Owners like them
and some of them are seasoned woodworkers.

Doubt seriously that had anything to do with this particular
review...data is data.

As for not advertising in FW, I know they have in the past although I
couldn't say as to which issue they have/have not or how recently (I
tend to remember specific topics, etc., although my time association
tends to get quite compressed). Such a decision (if they no longer do)
although might say something about their target market...

I suspect there's sufficient quality control issues with most of the
inexpensive imports that from one review to another there could easily
be sufficient variation to change precise order of results...there
have been some review where the "high-priced spread" has arrived at the
shop sadly out of adjustment or something as well--this has been
reported in reviews as well so I have no basis to think the FW reviews
as published are significantly influenced by advertising/advertisers.

On Mon, 20 Dec 2004 15:19:40 -0600, Duane Bozarth
wrote:


Such a decision (if they no longer do)
although might say something about their target market...


Grizzly buys a bunch of space in "Woodshop News", which is an entirely
different target than "'Murican Wooddorker" and "Family Handyman".

Maybe Taunton's prices are high?

Barry

On Mon, 20 Dec 2004 15:19:11 -0600, "RonB" wrote:


Might have something to do with the fact that Griz does not advertise in
Fine Woodworking. Don't know whose choice it is but the Griz 1023 does well
in magazines in which the advertise.

When Grizzly buys ads, boy do they buy a lot of space, and on the very
expensive pages.

I wonder why they pass on FWW?

Barry

Ba r r y wrote:

On Mon, 20 Dec 2004 15:19:11 -0600, "RonB" wrote:

Might have something to do with the fact that Griz does not advertise in
Fine Woodworking. Don't know whose choice it is but the Griz 1023 does well
in magazines in which the advertise.

When Grizzly buys ads, boy do they buy a lot of space, and on the very
expensive pages.

I wonder why they pass on FWW?

Dunno...cost (as you noted elsewhere) could be a logical conclusion but
perhaps it is simply trying to target more closely their perceived
market...

I picked up an old copy that I had laying on the table that I had an
article I was referring to and it did have a sizable spread...it turns
out to have been an early '99 issue. I haven't done any searching in
between although the 2003 issues that were handy didn't seem to have
any. Another thought...perhaps the economic slowdown caused them to
rein in and use scarce advertising dollars where the think to get more
return????

(All pure speculation, of course, I have no inside knowledge...)

I've never actually had my hands on any Grizzly altho I do know some
have reported happiness...from what I have seen, it appears that the
Yorkcraft appear to be good value if one is really looking for the
inexpensive or really constrained on initial purchase price.
Everytime I've bought anything except what I actually wanted, though,
I've ended up being so dissatisfied I've sold the cheaper and gotten the
"real thing" so it cost me even more because you can never sell it for
what you paid... I simply do w/o now until I can justify it (of
course, it's easier once one does have the basics, granted)...

No more than $0.01, omo, ymmv, ...