"Upscale" wrote in message
...
Ahh, but does it take a hard shove of a finger or just a light touch? From
the description of the sawstop, it just takes a light touch. With that in
mind, it's not as unbelievably stupid as one would know they are only
risking a slight piece of fleshy skin.

I guess with that in mind that is not as unbelievably stupid for a person to
point a loaded gun, with his finger on the trigger, at his foot as to look
down the barrel.

The better way to demonstrate the saw stop is to simply touch the "SIDE" of
the blade. The part with no teeth. ;~)

"Mike S" wrote in message
oups.com...
From my conversations with the rep at IWF 2002....

cost of cartridge was about $80 and replacing it was a DIY project of
very short duration. (they could do it in a few minutes - they did a
demo every hour on the same saw). Sawblades were said to not be
destroyed - maybe loose a couple of carbide teeth. If it were to
happen with my WWII, then I would hang it on the wall as a reminder and
gladly shell out for a new one. (now if it was a misfire, then it
would be a different story)

Certainly $200 for a new cartridge and blade is EXTREMELY cheap insurance to
guard against a "serious" injury. You or your employeer pay way more than
that monthly for health insurance.


Since my day job invloves keeping people asleep while the hand surgeons
try to sew fingers back on, I can easily justify this device for my
shop. About once a week I see someone cut off fingers. (My worst week
ever I personally took care of 8 severe hand injuries in 5 days) If
you think a couple hundred dollars is too much for this product, and
that $80 for a cartridge is out of line, then you would really be
shocked at the hospital bill if you ever have the misfortune to have a
bad accident and you and your fingers go to the hospital in different
vehicles. My insurance.... $150 for the ambulance ride, $150 ER
copay, surgery would be free, $40 copay for each specialist, each visit
(think of a couple of months of physical therapy @ $40 a pop), $25 for
each prescription; then add in a pain factor, loss of wages, loss of
use, and the 20% copay that I almost forgot about for several days in
the hospital. Sawstop is pretty cheap insurance after all (IMHO -
YMMV).

Exactly. And the scary part is that the people that believe that proper use
of your brain is going to prevent these kind of accidents are the ones that
probably need the Saw Stop the most. There are countless ways to be
seriousely injured with a TS while "not" cutting wood and IMHO that is when
your mental guard will be less effective.

"Leon" wrote in message news:5eCvd.32213

The better way to demonstrate the saw stop is to simply touch the "SIDE"
of
the blade. The part with no teeth. ;~)

No argument there, but then the demonstration wouldn't have near as much
sales impact and that's the whole purpose by doing it, isn't it?

Hell, if I could float a business advertising campaign by slicing a little
chunk of skin from a finger while recording it for posterity with an on
camera record, then call me crazy, but I'd probably do it. Just don't ask me
to do it repeatedly.

"Upscale" wrote in message
...
"Leon" wrote in message news:5eCvd.32213

The better way to demonstrate the saw stop is to simply touch the "SIDE"
of
the blade. The part with no teeth. ;~)

No argument there, but then the demonstration wouldn't have near as much
sales impact and that's the whole purpose by doing it, isn't it?

IMHO I believe it would have the same impact.


Hell, if I could float a business advertising campaign by slicing a little
chunk of skin from a finger while recording it for posterity with an on
camera record, then call me crazy, but I'd probably do it. Just don't ask
me
to do it repeatedly.

Yeah, showing a recorded vidio of a finger being nicked would be good along
with a live demonstration of touching the side of the blade. I would not
recomend doing either very often. Eventually something terribly wrong might
happen.

On 14 Dec 2004 05:10:45 -0800, "Mike S" wrote:

Since my day job invloves keeping people asleep

CRNA or MD?

My wife is a CRNA, although no longer practicing.


- -
LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net

Upscale responds:

"Mike Marlow" wrote in message

The inventor of the SawStop actually tested it with his own finger. He
said that despite his confidence in the product it was unbelieveably
hard to force his finger into the spinning saw blade.

Despite his confidence in his product, it was an unbelievably stupid thing
to do.

Ahh, but does it take a hard shove of a finger or just a light touch? From
the description of the sawstop, it just takes a light touch. With that in
mind, it's not as unbelievably stupid as one would know they are only
risking a slight piece of fleshy skin.

If it works as expected.

Charlie Self
"He has all the virtues I dislike and none of the vices I admire." Sir Winston
Churchill

Great quantification to justify the real-world cost of this product. If and
when it ever becomes available for my Jet cabinet saw - it will be
installed.

Bob S.


"Mike S" wrote in message
oups.com...
From my conversations with the rep at IWF 2002....

cost of cartridge was about $80 and replacing it was a DIY project of
very short duration. (they could do it in a few minutes - they did a
demo every hour on the same saw). Sawblades were said to not be
destroyed - maybe loose a couple of carbide teeth. If it were to
happen with my WWII, then I would hang it on the wall as a reminder and
gladly shell out for a new one. (now if it was a misfire, then it
would be a different story)

Since my day job invloves keeping people asleep while the hand surgeons
try to sew fingers back on, I can easily justify this device for my
shop. About once a week I see someone cut off fingers. (My worst week
ever I personally took care of 8 severe hand injuries in 5 days) If
you think a couple hundred dollars is too much for this product, and
that $80 for a cartridge is out of line, then you would really be
shocked at the hospital bill if you ever have the misfortune to have a
bad accident and you and your fingers go to the hospital in different
vehicles. My insurance.... $150 for the ambulance ride, $150 ER
copay, surgery would be free, $40 copay for each specialist, each visit
(think of a couple of months of physical therapy @ $40 a pop), $25 for
each prescription; then add in a pain factor, loss of wages, loss of
use, and the 20% copay that I almost forgot about for several days in
the hospital. Sawstop is pretty cheap insurance after all (IMHO -
YMMV).

and if/when I do get a SS, I'll still be super careful around it - as I
am now with all of my shop tools.

BTW... I keep a picture of a mangled hand right next to the on/off
switch on the TS just as a reminder. (posted to APW or APBW a few
years back)

On Tue, 14 Dec 2004 03:00:12 GMT, Dave Mundt wrote:

No...actually more like the Automatic Braking System
included in many cars today.
It is a device which is added to the basic, perfectly workable
mechanism, which is designed to replace skill and ability on the part
of the driver with robotics.

Are you claiming that you can brake better in bad conditions than ABS
can? Can you describe specifically what condition you believe this
to be true for?

The bottom line is that using a tablesaw is a dangerous
thing to do. I want myself and everyone that DOES use it to
maintain a cautious nervousness around it, and, not get lulled
into a false sense of security. That sense of security is
exactly what ends up with folks in trouble.

My biggest problem with the SawStop folks is that they continue
to not sell something that they also want to force everyone to use,
while locking others out from making it. That and I'm not convinced
it'll work.

BobS wrote:

Great quantification to justify the real-world cost of this product. If
and when it ever becomes available for my Jet cabinet saw - it will be
installed.

I doubt that there's ever going to be a retrofit kit available. If that was
doable at reasonable cost and effort I'm sure the Sawstop people would have
gone that route rather than trying to break into an established market with
a new line of saws.



Bob S.


"Mike S" wrote in message
oups.com...
From my conversations with the rep at IWF 2002....

cost of cartridge was about $80 and replacing it was a DIY project of
very short duration. (they could do it in a few minutes - they did a
demo every hour on the same saw). Sawblades were said to not be
destroyed - maybe loose a couple of carbide teeth. If it were to
happen with my WWII, then I would hang it on the wall as a reminder and
gladly shell out for a new one. (now if it was a misfire, then it
would be a different story)

Since my day job invloves keeping people asleep while the hand surgeons
try to sew fingers back on, I can easily justify this device for my
shop. About once a week I see someone cut off fingers. (My worst week
ever I personally took care of 8 severe hand injuries in 5 days) If
you think a couple hundred dollars is too much for this product, and
that $80 for a cartridge is out of line, then you would really be
shocked at the hospital bill if you ever have the misfortune to have a
bad accident and you and your fingers go to the hospital in different
vehicles. My insurance.... $150 for the ambulance ride, $150 ER
copay, surgery would be free, $40 copay for each specialist, each visit
(think of a couple of months of physical therapy @ $40 a pop), $25 for
each prescription; then add in a pain factor, loss of wages, loss of
use, and the 20% copay that I almost forgot about for several days in
the hospital. Sawstop is pretty cheap insurance after all (IMHO -
YMMV).

and if/when I do get a SS, I'll still be super careful around it - as I
am now with all of my shop tools.

BTW... I keep a picture of a mangled hand right next to the on/off
switch on the TS just as a reminder. (posted to APW or APBW a few
years back)


--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

From what I've heard of the SS, that might be risky. Doesn't the blade
drop under the table at the same time it stops? If that's true, you
could get cut from the edge of a tooth as it's on it's way down.

David

Leon wrote:

"Upscale" wrote in message
...

Ahh, but does it take a hard shove of a finger or just a light touch? From
the description of the sawstop, it just takes a light touch. With that in
mind, it's not as unbelievably stupid as one would know they are only
risking a slight piece of fleshy skin.


I guess with that in mind that is not as unbelievably stupid for a person to
point a loaded gun, with his finger on the trigger, at his foot as to look
down the barrel.

The better way to demonstrate the saw stop is to simply touch the "SIDE" of
the blade. The part with no teeth. ;~)

In article ,
otforme (Charlie Self) wrote:


It's also going to get expensive with a cartridge and blade for each "test".
Not to mention any other damage to the saw the SawStop might cause by being
repeatedly put through its paces.


Perhaps we've actually found a good use for those Harbor Freight saw
blades. There's nothing that says he has to use a $200 Forrest blade for
the demo.

--
Hank Gillette

In article ,
Dave Hinz wrote:

My biggest problem with the SawStop folks is that they continue
to not sell something that they also want to force everyone to use,
while locking others out from making it. That and I'm not convinced
it'll work.

Is that what they actually done? My understanding is that they've tried
to license the technology, and no one was interested (the reason for
that could be a long topic in itself). That's hardly keeping others from
making it. Yes, the thing is patented up the wazoo, but I assume that
most people here believe in capitalism and the right of an inventor to
make money on an invention.

As far as forcing everyone to use it, they demonstrated that the
technology exists and asked for legislation to make such a safety device
be mandatory on table saws. Assuming that such a law was passed, it
seems reasonable that the manufacturers of table saws could find
alternate methods of accomplishing the same thing. If you remember, the
auto companies claimed that they could not raise gas mileage on their
vehicles until they were told that they had to.

Whether it works or not, only time will tell. If you've seen the videos,
they are very compelling. Going back to the auto industry, there were a
lot of doubters about air bags when they were first introduced, but
their reliability has been remarkably good, and there are a lot of
people walking around today who would be dead or crippled without them.

--
Hank Gillette

In article ,
otforme (Charlie Self) wrote:

That's a good point, but do most people drive recklessly simply because
their car has airbags?

Not a good analogy. I don't know if it's the airbags, but there do seem to be
more and more idiots on the road today, people who tailgate, speed, cut in
and out. Possibly it's more noticeable because traffic is heavier than ever in
just about every location, but it sometimes seems to me that adding
extra safety gear to cars and SUVs gave a lot of people a sense of
invulnerability that is a bit frightening.

So are you saying that airbags are causing people to drive more
recklessly?

My impression is that there have always been idiot drivers. Increased
congestion makes them more noticeable, and the frustrations of
congestion make more people do stupid things. I doubt that removing
airbags and seat belts and forcing everyone to drive in Hyundais would
be an improvement.

I haven't personally seen the phenomena of people thinking that the SUV
makes them invulnerable, but I have heard of it.

Since the airbags are hidden, I don't think they affect me much one way
or another. But if anything, when I first started using seat belts, it
reminded me that driving was inherently dangerous. Of course, now,
buckling up is to automatic, that I don't even think about it. But it
certainly doesn't make me less cautious.

--
Hank Gillette

On Tue, 14 Dec 2004 06:41:56 -0600, "Swingman" wrote:

"Mike Marlow" wrote in message

the owner of the idea is entitled to charge what the market will bear, but
there's no reason for it to double or triple the cost of a low end saw.

Yeah there is ... it's called "manufacturer's liability insurance".


How much is the maunfacturer's per-unit liability insurance ?

On 14 Dec 2004 09:54:21 GMT, otforme (Charlie Self)
wrote:


Not a good analogy. I don't know if it's the airbags, but there do seem to be
more and more idiots on the road today, people who tailgate, speed, cut in and
out. Possibly it's more noticeable because traffic is heavier than ever in just
about every location, but it sometimes seems to me that adding extra safety
gear to cars and SUVs gave a lot of people a sense of invulnerability that is a
bit frightening.


I think that it's a combination of people having to drive more and
more to accomplish basic things, in traffic that is increasingly
worsening, as well as bloated pig SUVs (they have quite a bit
in common with those early 60's Caddies).

On Mon, 13 Dec 2004 17:54:46 GMT, "patrick conroy"
wrote:

If the blade drops below the tabletop, what's the point of stopping it
? If it doesn't drop quickly enough to be safe, why drop it at all ?

To me - the blade stop is safety system #1. Dropping it below the saw is the
backup...


I suspect that for a given cost, it can be dropped mre quickly
than it can be stopped.

On 13 Dec 2004 15:12:19 -0800, "Mike S" wrote:


I got an e-mail from sawstop saying my cabinet saw is ready to be
shipped to me. I put my name on the mailing list 2 yrs ago at IWF. So
it looks as though there are actually starting production.


Would you post details about it ? I'm interested in it.

"Hank Gillette" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Dave Hinz wrote:

My biggest problem with the SawStop folks is that they continue
to not sell something that they also want to force everyone to use,
while locking others out from making it. That and I'm not convinced
it'll work.

Is that what they actually done? My understanding is that they've tried
to license the technology, and no one was interested (the reason for
that could be a long topic in itself). That's hardly keeping others from
making it. Yes, the thing is patented up the wazoo, but I assume that
most people here believe in capitalism and the right of an inventor to
make money on an invention.

As far as forcing everyone to use it, they demonstrated that the
technology exists and asked for legislation to make such a safety device
be mandatory on table saws. Assuming that such a law was passed, it
seems reasonable that the manufacturers of table saws could find
alternate methods of accomplishing the same thing. If you remember, the
auto companies claimed that they could not raise gas mileage on their
vehicles until they were told that they had to.

Whether it works or not, only time will tell. If you've seen the videos,
they are very compelling. Going back to the auto industry, there were a
lot of doubters about air bags when they were first introduced, but
their reliability has been remarkably good, and there are a lot of
people walking around today who would be dead or crippled without them.

and a whole bunch of (usually) kids killed by them.

--
Hank Gillette

"Hank Gillette" wrote in message
...
In article ,
otforme (Charlie Self) wrote:

That's a good point, but do most people drive recklessly simply because
their car has airbags?

Not a good analogy. I don't know if it's the airbags, but there do seem
to be
more and more idiots on the road today, people who tailgate, speed, cut
in
and out. Possibly it's more noticeable because traffic is heavier than
ever in
just about every location, but it sometimes seems to me that adding
extra safety gear to cars and SUVs gave a lot of people a sense of
invulnerability that is a bit frightening.

So are you saying that airbags are causing people to drive more
recklessly?

My impression is that there have always been idiot drivers. Increased
congestion makes them more noticeable, and the frustrations of
congestion make more people do stupid things. I doubt that removing
airbags and seat belts and forcing everyone to drive in Hyundais would
be an improvement.

I haven't personally seen the phenomena of people thinking that the SUV
makes them invulnerable, but I have heard of it.

used to be boat sized cadillac drivers, now it's hummer and escalade
drivers.

Since the airbags are hidden, I don't think they affect me much one way
or another. But if anything, when I first started using seat belts, it
reminded me that driving was inherently dangerous. Of course, now,
buckling up is to automatic, that I don't even think about it. But it
certainly doesn't make me less cautious.

--
Hank Gillette

Hank Gillette asks:

In article ,
otforme (Charlie Self) wrote:

That's a good point, but do most people drive recklessly simply because
their car has airbags?

Not a good analogy. I don't know if it's the airbags, but there do seem to
be
more and more idiots on the road today, people who tailgate, speed, cut in
and out. Possibly it's more noticeable because traffic is heavier than ever
in
just about every location, but it sometimes seems to me that adding
extra safety gear to cars and SUVs gave a lot of people a sense of
invulnerability that is a bit frightening.

So are you saying that airbags are causing people to drive more
recklessly?


Did you READ what I wrote?

Charlie Self
"He has all the virtues I dislike and none of the vices I admire." Sir Winston
Churchill

GregP wrote:

On 14 Dec 2004 09:54:21 GMT, otforme (Charlie Self)
wrote:


Not a good analogy. I don't know if it's the airbags, but there do seem to
be more and more idiots on the road today, people who tailgate, speed, cut
in and out. Possibly it's more noticeable because traffic is heavier than
ever in just about every location, but it sometimes seems to me that
adding extra safety gear to cars and SUVs gave a lot of people a sense of
invulnerability that is a bit frightening.


I think that it's a combination of people having to drive more and
more to accomplish basic things, in traffic that is increasingly
worsening, as well as bloated pig SUVs (they have quite a bit
in common with those early 60's Caddies).

Actually, they _are_ those early 60s Caddies. Since you can't get a car
like that anymore, people buy SUVs in order to have the same amount of
space and comfort.

And if you ban SUVs then you'll see people driving around in bobtail
18-wheelers to get the same.

--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

--
'
"Hank Gillette" wrote in message news:hankgillette-

As far as forcing everyone to use it, they demonstrated that the
technology exists and asked for legislation to make such a safety device
be mandatory on table saws. Assuming that such a law was passed, it
seems reasonable that the manufacturers of table saws could find
alternate methods of accomplishing the same thing.

I suggest you read the proposed legislation. I posted the links earlier. It
is pretty clear that the legislation specifies the very method that they
have patented. I'm of this opinion that it was anti competitive.

If you remember, the
auto companies claimed that they could not raise gas mileage on their
vehicles until they were told that they had to.

They didn't until the market showed them that people will buy small fuel
efficient cars. Manufucturers claims are nearly always in their own
interest.

Whether it works or not, only time will tell. If you've seen the videos,
they are very compelling.

They better be. If not they better fire their marketing people. I'm waiting
for them to do an internet version where the hot dog is replaced with spam.

Going back to the auto industry, there were a
lot of doubters about air bags when they were first introduced, but
their reliability has been remarkably good, and there are a lot of
people walking around today who would be dead or crippled without them.

Airbags are practical and were not mandated until they were proven. Now they
are a selling point. Manufacturers add them because they help sell cars. In
my opinion Sawstop is not practical. But, if you want one, it appears that
they will sell you one, so feel free. Let us know how it works out.

-j

Sounds like you would make a good customer. Feel free to buy one.
Let us know how it works out.

-j

"Greg O" wrote in message
...
Have you watched the videos? Sawstop stops and drops the blade so fast you
could not hurt yourself with one if you wanted to! No way you could hook a
pinkie in a tooth of the blade!
Greg

"Dave Hinz" wrote in message
...


Are you claiming that you can brake better in bad conditions than ABS
can? Can you describe specifically what condition you believe this
to be true for?

Not to jump into the middle of this arg - but IIRC, one of the rags (C&D and
R&T) had some fun here. They had run across some Driving School where the
instruction was to "lock 'em up and lock 'em up hard." I think they brought
in some "semi-pro" drivers and tried to see who could stop shorter with the
most control. A pro who put the foot down to the limit of locking, or an
amature who just stomped on the pedal.

The conditions were dry - and the locked up brakes consistently stopped
shorter.

I had driven a lot of miles on ice and snow, and when my first vehicle with
ABS showed up, I spent several hours in a empty parking lot retraining my
foot to let the system do it's job.

It's still hard to get your head around "I can steer, I can still steer..."

On Tue, 14 Dec 2004 11:47:10 -0500, Hank Gillette wrote:

As far as forcing everyone to use it, they demonstrated that the
technology exists and asked for legislation to make such a safety device
be mandatory on table saws.

But the technology does _not_ exist, except in their demo units. If
they could ship a reliable product, they would be.

Assuming that such a law was passed, it
seems reasonable that the manufacturers of table saws could find
alternate methods of accomplishing the same thing.

Not if the patent is written in such a way as to restrict others
from adapting it.

If you remember, the
auto companies claimed that they could not raise gas mileage on their
vehicles until they were told that they had to.

Actually, all that results from that legislation is a gas-guzzler tax.

Whether it works or not, only time will tell. If you've seen the videos,
they are very compelling. Going back to the auto industry, there were a
lot of doubters about air bags when they were first introduced, but
their reliability has been remarkably good, and there are a lot of
people walking around today who would be dead or crippled without them.

And yet, I bet there's someone out there who holds the patent on the
airbag, and they're not trying to have the government force a single-source
for their invention.

Public good is _not_ their motivation. That's fine, really it is, but
pretending it is is what gets me.

On Tue, 14 Dec 2004 10:52:46 -0700, Charles Spitzer wrote:

"Hank Gillette" wrote in message
...

Whether it works or not, only time will tell. If you've seen the videos,
they are very compelling. Going back to the auto industry, there were a
lot of doubters about air bags when they were first introduced, but
their reliability has been remarkably good, and there are a lot of
people walking around today who would be dead or crippled without them.

and a whole bunch of (usually) kids killed by them.

I've been an EMT for about a dozen years. I have seen a lot more people
hurt very very badly by running into dashboards, windshields, all sorts of
other hard/sharp/non-moving stuff in a car, that they wouldn't have hit
if they had their belt on and had an airbag been between them and what
they hit. The statistics of airbag-related injuries show it's a _very_ small
amount compared to the injuries they prevent.

On Tue, 14 Dec 2004 18:54:36 GMT, patrick conroy wrote:

"Dave Hinz" wrote in message
...

Are you claiming that you can brake better in bad conditions than ABS
can? Can you describe specifically what condition you believe this
to be true for?

Not to jump into the middle of this arg - but IIRC, one of the rags (C&D and
R&T) had some fun here. They had run across some Driving School where the
instruction was to "lock 'em up and lock 'em up hard." I think they brought
in some "semi-pro" drivers and tried to see who could stop shorter with the
most control. A pro who put the foot down to the limit of locking, or an
amature who just stomped on the pedal.

Right. I saw a similar study, not sure if it was the same.

The conditions were dry - and the locked up brakes consistently stopped
shorter.

Well, the ABS "stomp hard on pedal and leave it down" wasn't technically
locking up the brakes.

A very good driver can "threshhold brake", where he applies pressure to
the foot pedal _just_ shy of losing friction. The problem is, he has one
foot pedal, and there are four wheels, each of which are going to have
a maximum braking before they start sliding/skidding. One actuator, four
outputs. He can only be as good as the slippiest wheel.

ABS, on the other hand, detects slip and modulates the brake pressure
to specifially that wheel. It's doing on each of the 4 wheels what the
really really good driver can only do on the slippiest of them at best.
So, for the one wheel with the least grip, it's as good as an expert
driver; for the other 3, it's making adjustments that that driver just
can't get to, because he doesn't have 4 left feet or the response time.

The _only_ situation where ABS can be beat by an expert driver is
in a slush/heavy snow situation, where you _want_ the tires to slide
so the snow gets pushed in the front of the tires as in a snowplow,
but of course you can't steer when that's happening.

I had driven a lot of miles on ice and snow, and when my first vehicle with
ABS showed up, I spent several hours in a empty parking lot retraining my
foot to let the system do it's job.

Fun times. Did the cops stop over to see what you were up to as well?
I explained, and they said "have fun" and left. Being in my 30s helped,
I'm sure, they were probably expecting a 17 year old or something.

It's still hard to get your head around "I can steer, I can still steer..."

There is some very interesting vector force stuff going on when you're
steering while it's in ABS mode. Saved sheet metal damage for me once
already, I'm certain.

Dave Hinz

On Tue, 14 Dec 2004 18:54:36 GMT, "patrick conroy"
wrote:


I had driven a lot of miles on ice and snow, and when my first vehicle with
ABS showed up, I spent several hours in a empty parking lot retraining my
foot to let the system do it's job.


I do something like that in the winter every time I get another
car: Buffalo requires a lot of slush & ice driving.

On Tue, 14 Dec 2004 13:23:55 -0500, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

Actually, they _are_ those early 60s Caddies. Since you can't get a car
like that anymore, people buy SUVs in order to have the same amount of
space and comfort.

Just about any minivan does that a lot better than just
about any SUV. And those big old Caddies didn't really
have all that much room in them, especially if you
considered their ponderous gas-eating bulk requiring
a large military presence in the Mideast to support, just
like the majority of the SUVs out now.

"Dave Hinz" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 14 Dec 2004 18:54:36 GMT, patrick conroy
wrote:

"Dave Hinz" wrote in message
...

Are you claiming that you can brake better in bad conditions than ABS
can? Can you describe specifically what condition you believe this
to be true for?

Not to jump into the middle of this arg - but IIRC, one of the rags (C&D
and
R&T) had some fun here. They had run across some Driving School where the
instruction was to "lock 'em up and lock 'em up hard." I think they
brought
in some "semi-pro" drivers and tried to see who could stop shorter with
the
most control. A pro who put the foot down to the limit of locking, or an
amature who just stomped on the pedal.

Right. I saw a similar study, not sure if it was the same.

The conditions were dry - and the locked up brakes consistently stopped
shorter.

Well, the ABS "stomp hard on pedal and leave it down" wasn't technically
locking up the brakes.

A very good driver can "threshhold brake", where he applies pressure to
the foot pedal _just_ shy of losing friction. The problem is, he has one
foot pedal, and there are four wheels, each of which are going to have
a maximum braking before they start sliding/skidding. One actuator, four
outputs. He can only be as good as the slippiest wheel.

ABS, on the other hand, detects slip and modulates the brake pressure
to specifially that wheel. It's doing on each of the 4 wheels what the
really really good driver can only do on the slippiest of them at best.
So, for the one wheel with the least grip, it's as good as an expert
driver; for the other 3, it's making adjustments that that driver just
can't get to, because he doesn't have 4 left feet or the response time.

The _only_ situation where ABS can be beat by an expert driver is
in a slush/heavy snow situation, where you _want_ the tires to slide
so the snow gets pushed in the front of the tires as in a snowplow,
but of course you can't steer when that's happening.

when i was auto-xing, there are LOTS of times i didn't want the abs to kick
in, mostly when i wanted the rear of the car to step out to turn the car
faster.

I had driven a lot of miles on ice and snow, and when my first vehicle
with
ABS showed up, I spent several hours in a empty parking lot retraining my
foot to let the system do it's job.

Fun times. Did the cops stop over to see what you were up to as well?
I explained, and they said "have fun" and left. Being in my 30s helped,
I'm sure, they were probably expecting a 17 year old or something.

It's still hard to get your head around "I can steer, I can still
steer..."

There is some very interesting vector force stuff going on when you're
steering while it's in ABS mode. Saved sheet metal damage for me once
already, I'm certain.

Dave Hinz

On Tue, 14 Dec 2004 14:49:49 -0500, GregP wrote:
On Tue, 14 Dec 2004 18:54:36 GMT, "patrick conroy"
wrote:

I had driven a lot of miles on ice and snow, and when my first vehicle with
ABS showed up, I spent several hours in a empty parking lot retraining my
foot to let the system do it's job.

I do something like that in the winter every time I get another
car: Buffalo requires a lot of slush & ice driving.

Yes, it does. Hey Patrick, was this the empty parking lot at State Fair
Park, by any chance? ISTR we're both Milwaukee locals.

Dave

On Tue, 14 Dec 2004 13:07:54 -0700, Charles Spitzer wrote:

"Dave Hinz" wrote in message
...

The _only_ situation where ABS can be beat by an expert driver is
in a slush/heavy snow situation, where you _want_ the tires to slide
so the snow gets pushed in the front of the tires as in a snowplow,
but of course you can't steer when that's happening.

when i was auto-xing, there are LOTS of times i didn't want the abs to kick
in, mostly when i wanted the rear of the car to step out to turn the car
faster.

Isn't that what the hand-brake is for? Keep the front (driven) wheels going
with your right foot, pull up on the handbrake, let the ass end slide
around. Works great in a Saab, I suppose if you have RWD you can do
something sort of like that with the throttle?

"left foot steering" is what the Saab rally drivers call it.

Dave Hinz

In article ,
otforme (Charlie Self) wrote:

In article ,
otforme (Charlie Self) wrote:

That's a good point, but do most people drive recklessly simply because
their car has airbags?

Not a good analogy. I don't know if it's the airbags, but there do seem to
be
more and more idiots on the road today, people who tailgate, speed, cut in
and out. Possibly it's more noticeable because traffic is heavier than ever
in
just about every location, but it sometimes seems to me that adding
extra safety gear to cars and SUVs gave a lot of people a sense of
invulnerability that is a bit frightening.

So are you saying that airbags are causing people to drive more
recklessly?


Did you READ what I wrote?


I read it. You left open the possibility that you think the airbags are
a factor.

"but it sometimes seems to me that adding extra safety gear to cars and
SUVs gave a lot of people a sense of invulnerability that is a bit
frightening."

What point did you make that you think I missed?

--
Hank Gillette

"Dave Hinz" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 14 Dec 2004 13:07:54 -0700, Charles Spitzer
wrote:

"Dave Hinz" wrote in message
...

The _only_ situation where ABS can be beat by an expert driver is
in a slush/heavy snow situation, where you _want_ the tires to slide
so the snow gets pushed in the front of the tires as in a snowplow,
but of course you can't steer when that's happening.

when i was auto-xing, there are LOTS of times i didn't want the abs to
kick
in, mostly when i wanted the rear of the car to step out to turn the car
faster.

Isn't that what the hand-brake is for? Keep the front (driven) wheels
going
with your right foot, pull up on the handbrake, let the ass end slide
around. Works great in a Saab, I suppose if you have RWD you can do
something sort of like that with the throttle?

corvette. rwd. manual transmission. already doing heel (brake) and toe
(throttle) with the right foot. one almost never takes hands off the wheel
in autox, so ran out of limbs to do that. also, a vette handbrake is on the
left side of the passenger seat down low, and you have to apply it harder to
get it to release as it's on a ratchet of some kind. i usually can't reach
it when using a 5 point harness.

"left foot steering" is what the Saab rally drivers call it.

Dave Hinz

In article , "J"
wrote:

Airbags are practical and were not mandated until they were proven. Now they
are a selling point. Manufacturers add them because they help sell cars. In
my opinion Sawstop is not practical. But, if you want one, it appears that
they will sell you one, so feel free. Let us know how it works out.

How do they help sell cars? They're required. At least some sort of
passive restraint system is required, and I don't think anyone likes the
seat belts that wrap themselves around you automatically.

I'm not in favor of requiring safety equipment that hasn't been proven.
Nor am I in favor of writing a requirement such that only one company
can supply it if there are alternative choices, whether it's SawStop or
Halliburton. I'm just saying that I don't think the SawStop people are
bad, based on what they've done so far.

--
Hank Gillette

In article , "J"
wrote:

Sounds like you would make a good customer. Feel free to buy one.
Let us know how it works out.


I would have seriously considered one had they been available when I
bought my saw.

--
Hank Gillette

On Tue, 14 Dec 2004 15:36:00 -0500, Hank Gillette wrote:
How do they help sell cars? They're required.

No they're not.

At least some sort of
passive restraint system is required,

Ah, there you go.

and I don't think anyone likes the
seat belts that wrap themselves around you automatically.

Hence, airbags help sell cars.

I'm not in favor of requiring safety equipment that hasn't been proven.

You're not? You seemed to be before.

Nor am I in favor of writing a requirement such that only one company
can supply it if there are alternative choices, whether it's SawStop or
Halliburton. I'm just saying that I don't think the SawStop people are
bad, based on what they've done so far.

They haven't done _****_ so far, but produce a demo that we've all seen
and promise that they're shipping "real soon now", while lobbying to have
their nonexistant vaporware made mandatory by law. I see this as a
pretty deep hole for them to dig out of before I'd consider buying
their non-product.

In article ,
Dave Hinz wrote:

As far as forcing everyone to use it, they demonstrated that the
technology exists and asked for legislation to make such a safety device
be mandatory on table saws.

But the technology does _not_ exist, except in their demo units. If
they could ship a reliable product, they would be.


I agree, I'd like to see a reliable product first.

Assuming that such a law was passed, it
seems reasonable that the manufacturers of table saws could find
alternate methods of accomplishing the same thing.

Not if the patent is written in such a way as to restrict others
from adapting it.


Well, that's the whole point of patents, isn't it. But despite the
millions of patents out there, usually companies find a way to duplicate
the functionality of a product without infringing if there is money to
be made. Either that, or they license the patent.

Public good is _not_ their motivation. That's fine, really it is, but
pretending it is is what gets me.

I don't see any conflict between being interested in the public good and
wanting to make a profit at the same time. If the standard is to give
away anything that would benefit the public, why don't I get my air bags
for free? Why can't I just walk into the store and walk out with a fire
extinguisher without paying?

I _think_ I understand your ire at their attempt to make their device
mandatory. I guess it just doesn't bug me in the same way. I'd like to
see the justification from the saw manufacturers as to why they were not
interested. That has the potential to irritate me much more.

--
Hank Gillette

"GregP" wrote in message
On Tue, 14 Dec 2004 06:41:56 -0600, "Swingman" wrote:

"Mike Marlow" wrote in message

the owner of the idea is entitled to charge what the market will bear,
but
there's no reason for it to double or triple the cost of a low end saw.

Yeah there is ... it's called "manufacturer's liability insurance".


How much is the maunfacturer's per-unit liability insurance ?

How many units?

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 11/06/04

On Tue, 14 Dec 2004 09:55:46 GMT, "Mike Marlow"
wrote:


"Dave Hall" wrote in message
oups.com...
The Sawstop may be like brakes and airbags in some respects, but I have
not seen airbags that cost more than an entry level car. The SawStop
would eliminate entry level tablesaws completely as you can't add it to
a $200 benchtop. Even if you could somehow manage to fit this thing
into an entry level saw, the base price would have to double or triple
and the cost of it going off would be more than the pre-SawStop cost of
the saw. Incremental safety equipment additions to cars and such have
certainly added to the cost of such items substantially, but they have
not doubled or tripled the entry level price. The cost of an airbag
replacement hasn't yet reached the cost of the rest of the car.
Dave Hall


There's no reason it has to add that kind of cost to a table saw. There's
nothing in it that costs that much. Granted, it's a capitalist world and
the owner of the idea is entitled to charge what the market will bear, but
there's no reason for it to double or triple the cost of a low end saw.


well, it has control electronics, actuators capable of stopping the
blade fast and most importantly it requires a reingineering of the
machine to survive the forces generated. even in a production
environment this is gonna add a hundred dollars or so to a saw's
price. there *are* hundred dollar saws on the market.