On 08 Jan 2017 20:25:28 GMT, Puckdropper
puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com wrote:

Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in news:7vadnaMfj97Q6u_FnZ2dnUU7-
:

On 1/7/2017 10:09 PM, Martin Eastburn wrote:
Just wait - 56v is coming to auto. Local switchers for voltages.
Martin


Thinking about this more, The hybrids and especially the all electrics
,like Tesla, have much much higher voltage.


Not only that, but they've got DUAL VOLTAGE! Just wait until the
marketers get ahold of that. (Dear marketers, if you want to use that,
please contact me for terms and conditions.)

I'm wondering when we'll get rid of the awful cigarette lighter power
plug design and go with something better suited for the purpose like
Anderson Powerpoles.

More likely, they'll be replaced by USB connectors.

On Sun, 8 Jan 2017 14:45:33 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

On 1/8/2017 2:13 PM, wrote:
On Saturday, January 7, 2017 at 5:26:45 PM UTC-6, Spalted Walt
wrote:

SawStop https://s3.amazonaws.com/vs-lumberjocks.com/lymffnt.jpg

Completely unrelated to the electrical discussion in this thread.
But I am shocked by the picture of the SawStop motor. Made in
Taiwan. On another forum I read people are always talking about how
wonderful and professional and heavy duty their SawStop saws are. I
would never have guessed they use an Asian motor. Foolishly assumed
a US company would use a Marathon, Baldor, Leeson motor. I looked on
their website and it says this:

"The combination of safety, unparalleled design and craftsmanship has
made SawStop the #1 cabinet saw in North America.

SawStop is a privately owned company based in Tualatin, Oregon, just
south of Portland. We are proud to be 100% U.S. owned and
engineered."

Apparently US owned and engineered does not mean Made in USA.

Did you think differently? American automobiles are built elsewhere
too. Some Buicks are built in China and only sold here.

Hmm. Are you comparing SawStop to a Buick? ;-)


I
guess its just another Asian made saw with a US invented safety
device on it. Kind of like the current Jet, General, Delta,
Powermatic, Grizzly, etc. saws are all Asian made saws designed to
resemble the original American made Unisaw and 66 saws from many
decades ago.

Not like those saws at all. The internals are totally different than
the brands you listed above. It looks nothing like the others saws on
the inside. The trunion slides straight up and down on two large steel
dowels.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb112...posted-public/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb112...posted-public/

Those gears for tilt and raising the trunion are an inch and a half in
diameter.

chttps://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb11211/8680321455/in/dateposted-public/




I'm not too confident in the quality and reliability of
Asian products. I don't associate quality and Asia together. Not
sure I would trust the SawStop safety feature to even work when I
needed it. A safety saw that cuts your fingers off.


Ignorance is bliss I guess, Honda, Toyota, Lexus, Acura are Asian
products and pretty much at the top of the hill.

AFAIK, Acura is a NA-only brand (of Honda). They don't sell them in
Japan, anyway.

On 1/8/2017 4:45 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 8 Jan 2017 14:45:33 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

On 1/8/2017 2:13 PM, wrote:
On Saturday, January 7, 2017 at 5:26:45 PM UTC-6, Spalted Walt
wrote:

SawStop https://s3.amazonaws.com/vs-lumberjocks.com/lymffnt.jpg

Completely unrelated to the electrical discussion in this thread.
But I am shocked by the picture of the SawStop motor. Made in
Taiwan. On another forum I read people are always talking about how
wonderful and professional and heavy duty their SawStop saws are. I
would never have guessed they use an Asian motor. Foolishly assumed
a US company would use a Marathon, Baldor, Leeson motor. I looked on
their website and it says this:

"The combination of safety, unparalleled design and craftsmanship has
made SawStop the #1 cabinet saw in North America.

SawStop is a privately owned company based in Tualatin, Oregon, just
south of Portland. We are proud to be 100% U.S. owned and
engineered."

Apparently US owned and engineered does not mean Made in USA.

Did you think differently? American automobiles are built elsewhere
too. Some Buicks are built in China and only sold here.

Hmm. Are you comparing SawStop to a Buick? ;-)

Not at all but Buick is getting good ratings these days. Just saying
country of origin does not dictate quality or the lack there of.





I
guess its just another Asian made saw with a US invented safety
device on it. Kind of like the current Jet, General, Delta,
Powermatic, Grizzly, etc. saws are all Asian made saws designed to
resemble the original American made Unisaw and 66 saws from many
decades ago.

Not like those saws at all. The internals are totally different than
the brands you listed above. It looks nothing like the others saws on
the inside. The trunion slides straight up and down on two large steel
dowels.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb112...posted-public/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb112...posted-public/

Those gears for tilt and raising the trunion are an inch and a half in
diameter.

chttps://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb11211/8680321455/in/dateposted-public/




I'm not too confident in the quality and reliability of
Asian products. I don't associate quality and Asia together. Not
sure I would trust the SawStop safety feature to even work when I
needed it. A safety saw that cuts your fingers off.


Ignorance is bliss I guess, Honda, Toyota, Lexus, Acura are Asian
products and pretty much at the top of the hill.

AFAIK, Acura is a NA-only brand (of Honda). They don't sell them in
Japan, anyway.

Interesting to know! And mostly built here.

On 1/8/2017 2:25 PM, Puckdropper wrote:
Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in news:7vadnaMfj97Q6u_FnZ2dnUU7-
:

On 1/7/2017 10:09 PM, Martin Eastburn wrote:
Just wait - 56v is coming to auto. Local switchers for voltages.
Martin


Thinking about this more, The hybrids and especially the all electrics
,like Tesla, have much much higher voltage.


Not only that, but they've got DUAL VOLTAGE! Just wait until the
marketers get ahold of that. (Dear marketers, if you want to use that,
please contact me for terms and conditions.)

I'm wondering when we'll get rid of the awful cigarette lighter power
plug design and go with something better suited for the purpose like
Anderson Powerpoles.

Puckdropper



The Anderson connectors look to be more of a connector intended to be
left in tact, ie. most electrical connections in vehicles. They may be
a PIA to hook an accessory up to on a daily basis.

The ones I saw look more like a more secure version of the old
automotive spade connectors.

Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in news:A92dnc2hrtp3fu_FnZ2dnUU7-
:



The Anderson connectors look to be more of a connector intended to be
left in tact, ie. most electrical connections in vehicles. They may be
a PIA to hook an accessory up to on a daily basis.

The ones I saw look more like a more secure version of the old
automotive spade connectors.


They're rated for 10,000 connect/disconnect cycles, and take
approximately 3 lbs of force to do so. For a 2-position PowerPole block,
the force rating is probably true. For a larger block, it's a little
harder.

https://powerwerx.com/anderson-power...mp-unassembled

One of the problems we constantly experience with cigarette lighter plugs
is they come out so easily. PowerPoles still connect and disconnect
readily, but won't come apart with a tiny tug on the power cable.

I haven't ever tried them with something heavy hanging off the end like a
power converter, so I don't know how they'd handle that situation.

Puckdropper
--
http://www.puckdroppersplace.us/rec.woodworking
A mini archive of some of rec.woodworking's best and worst!

On Sun, 8 Jan 2017 19:09:25 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

On 1/8/2017 4:45 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 8 Jan 2017 14:45:33 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

On 1/8/2017 2:13 PM, wrote:
On Saturday, January 7, 2017 at 5:26:45 PM UTC-6, Spalted Walt
wrote:

SawStop https://s3.amazonaws.com/vs-lumberjocks.com/lymffnt.jpg

Completely unrelated to the electrical discussion in this thread.
But I am shocked by the picture of the SawStop motor. Made in
Taiwan. On another forum I read people are always talking about how
wonderful and professional and heavy duty their SawStop saws are. I
would never have guessed they use an Asian motor. Foolishly assumed
a US company would use a Marathon, Baldor, Leeson motor. I looked on
their website and it says this:

"The combination of safety, unparalleled design and craftsmanship has
made SawStop the #1 cabinet saw in North America.

SawStop is a privately owned company based in Tualatin, Oregon, just
south of Portland. We are proud to be 100% U.S. owned and
engineered."

Apparently US owned and engineered does not mean Made in USA.

Did you think differently? American automobiles are built elsewhere
too. Some Buicks are built in China and only sold here.

Hmm. Are you comparing SawStop to a Buick? ;-)

Not at all but Buick is getting good ratings these days. Just saying
country of origin does not dictate quality or the lack there of.

Ick. They were always your grandfather's car and AFAIC still are,
even though I'm alost 65. ;-)



I
guess its just another Asian made saw with a US invented safety
device on it. Kind of like the current Jet, General, Delta,
Powermatic, Grizzly, etc. saws are all Asian made saws designed to
resemble the original American made Unisaw and 66 saws from many
decades ago.

Not like those saws at all. The internals are totally different than
the brands you listed above. It looks nothing like the others saws on
the inside. The trunion slides straight up and down on two large steel
dowels.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb112...posted-public/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb112...posted-public/

Those gears for tilt and raising the trunion are an inch and a half in
diameter.

chttps://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb11211/8680321455/in/dateposted-public/




I'm not too confident in the quality and reliability of
Asian products. I don't associate quality and Asia together. Not
sure I would trust the SawStop safety feature to even work when I
needed it. A safety saw that cuts your fingers off.


Ignorance is bliss I guess, Honda, Toyota, Lexus, Acura are Asian
products and pretty much at the top of the hill.

AFAIK, Acura is a NA-only brand (of Honda). They don't sell them in
Japan, anyway.

Interesting to know! And mostly built here.

Marysville Ohio (NE of Columbus).

Actually they have that figured.

Run a small, high voltage wire to under the dash. Attach through fuse
and confuse customer with odd numbering. Take the fuses line to a power
block - contains a switcher in a block (swap out) and the block produces
5, 6, 12, 14, 28v..... have three or so blocks of different colors and
they produce various voltages - e.g. for back seat of the drivers - for
the local computer / game console. Another to the xxx for USB and other
charging. It can supply high current or simply reference voltages.
Just modules to plug and play. Kinda like large fist size or thinner -
power pack. Even supply the 12v socket.

Might have to supply a 12V to high voltage for the boost a battery....
(switcher use in reverse).

Martin

On 1/8/2017 2:59 AM, whit3rd wrote:
On Saturday, January 7, 2017 at 8:51:51 AM UTC-8, wrote:
On Sat, 7 Jan 2017 16:21:42 +0000 (UTC), John McCoy
wrote:

"Safe" is considered to be anything less than 52V. There was once
talk about the automotive industry moving to a 48V battery. The
reason for 48V was that it was just below the "safe" limit. Of course
it never happened because it would have caused more problems than it
solved.

At full charging rate, the terminals would be well over 52V; what I remember, the
auto buzz was about '42V', which is a 36V battery and allowance for
overvoltage during heavy charging.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/a2198/4226979/

Changing standards can be an engineering nightmare, because so many
decisions have already been optimized for 12V. There aren't 'too many
problems' so much as too many decisions to be remade.

Is there a class of machine that is foreign and others are local ? Or
are you looking at foreign made for foreign markets ?

I looked at the 3hp 230v and 13 amps.

Martin

On 1/8/2017 2:13 PM, wrote:
On Saturday, January 7, 2017 at 5:26:45 PM UTC-6, Spalted Walt wrote:

SawStop
https://s3.amazonaws.com/vs-lumberjocks.com/lymffnt.jpg

Completely unrelated to the electrical discussion in this thread. But I am shocked by the picture of the SawStop motor. Made in Taiwan. On another forum I read people are always talking about how wonderful and professional and heavy duty their SawStop saws are. I would never have guessed they use an Asian motor. Foolishly assumed a US company would use a Marathon, Baldor, Leeson motor. I looked on their website and it says this:

"The combination of safety, unparalleled design and craftsmanship has made SawStop the #1 cabinet saw in North America.

SawStop is a privately owned company based in Tualatin, Oregon, just south of Portland. We are proud to be 100% U.S. owned and engineered."

Apparently US owned and engineered does not mean Made in USA. I guess its just another Asian made saw with a US invented safety device on it. Kind of like the current Jet, General, Delta, Powermatic, Grizzly, etc. saws are all Asian made saws designed to resemble the original American made Unisaw and 66 saws from many decades ago. I'm not too confident in the quality and reliability of Asian products. I don't associate quality and Asia together. Not sure I would trust the SawStop safety feature to even work when I needed it. A safety saw that cuts your fingers off.

Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet writes:

The wires out side my home on utility poles are maybe 480 volt NOT forty
six thousand. Now the voltage on the hi power transmission lines are
much much higher but they are not near by and they go to transformer
stations where the voltage is dropped and sent to consumers and still
more power pole transformers.. The closest transformer station to me is
8 miles away.

The transformer that feeds 240v to my domicile has 22kv on the primary side
(fed underground).

On Sunday, January 8, 2017 at 2:45:41 PM UTC-6, Leon wrote:

Ignorance is bliss I guess, Honda, Toyota, Lexus, Acura are Asian
products and pretty much at the top of the hill.

Guessing everyone but you knew what I meant when I wrote Asian. Japan is excluded. China and similar countries are Asian. Kind of like saying European. Some think Germany and Switzerland. But Turkey and Slovakia and Hungary and Poland are European too. Same quality?

I have many Chinese products. Or Asian. The computer I am typing on is probably Chinese. TV too. They seem to be OK quality. But not what I consider the best of the best quality.

On 1/9/2017 2:05 PM, wrote:
On Sunday, January 8, 2017 at 2:45:41 PM UTC-6, Leon wrote:

Ignorance is bliss I guess, Honda, Toyota, Lexus, Acura are Asian
products and pretty much at the top of the hill.

Guessing everyone but you knew what I meant when I wrote Asian.
Japan is excluded. China and similar countries are Asian. Kind of
like saying European. Some think Germany and Switzerland. But
Turkey and Slovakia and Hungary and Poland are European too. Same
quality?

Ok, Samsung, Hyundai, Genesis, Powermatic Is that close enough for you? ;~)




I have many Chinese products. Or Asian. The computer I am typing on
is probably Chinese. TV too. They seem to be OK quality. But not
what I consider the best of the best quality.


Well you get what you pay for. If you don't buy the best that a country
offers you are ignorant to what is available.

In article ,
says...

On 1/7/2017 1:39 PM, Leon wrote:

Today "safe" is considered to be around 12V. I can't think
of any situation where you'd consider 110V to be "safe",
unless you're comparing it to something like 1200V.

"Safe" is considered to be anything less than 52V. There was once
talk about the automotive industry moving to a 48V battery. The
reason for 48V was that it was just below the "safe" limit. Of course
it never happened because it would have caused more problems than it
solved.



When was that talk? No doubt, there is always something in the air but
I never read or heard of that back when I was in the automotive business.

I'm sure it was intended to help make vehicles lighter in weight.



Coming soon, evidently


Not every electrical component will switch to 48-volt. Lights, radios,
electric windows and door locks, for example, would stay 12-volt. And
Delphi?s vision is that vehicles with 48-volt systems would also have a
strong regenerative braking system to capture much of the energy lost
when a vehicle slows down.

Read mo
http://autoweek.com/article/technolo...#ixzz4V6czYRqB

And when you can buy a car that says "Delphi
Motors" on the front then the industry will give
a crap what bull**** "Delphi" is trying to sell.

Bolt runs on 350v, Volt runs on 360, Tesla runs
on 375. All have 12v subsystems to support
various accessories. The notion that 48v is of
some great advantage in building hybrids and
electrics has little contact with reality.

In article cfe219e3-fffb-4c22-b101-
, russellseaton1
@yahoo.com says...

On Saturday, January 7, 2017 at 5:26:45 PM UTC-6, Spalted Walt wrote:

SawStop
https://s3.amazonaws.com/vs-lumberjocks.com/lymffnt.jpg

Completely unrelated to the electrical discussion in this thread. But I am shocked by the picture of the SawStop motor. Made in Taiwan. On another forum I read people are always talking about how wonderful and professional and heavy duty their SawStop saws are. I would never have guessed they use an Asian motor. Foolishly assumed a US company would use a Marathon, Baldor, Leeson motor. I looked on their website and it says this:

"The combination of safety, unparalleled design and craftsmanship has made SawStop the #1 cabinet saw in North America.

SawStop is a privately owned company based in Tualatin, Oregon, just south of Portland. We are proud to be 100% U.S. owned and engineered."

Apparently US owned and engineered does not mean Made in USA. I guess its just another Asian made saw with a US invented safety device on it. Kind of like the current Jet, General, Delta, Powermatic, Grizzly, etc. saws are all Asian made saws designed to resemble the original American made Unisaw and 66 saws from many decades ago. I'm not too confident in the quality and reliability of Asian products. I don't associate quality and Asia together. Not sure I would
trust the SawStop safety feature to even work when I needed it. A safety saw that cuts your fingers off.


The Japanese made a cult of quality.

The Chinese and Taiwanese not so much. They can
make stuff as good as any Japanese or American
company. The key word is _can_. The trouble is
that they'll make the cheapest thing that meets
the letter of the contract, so it's up to the
purchaser to specify exactly what they are to
make in sufficient detail that they meet the
required quality standards.

Sawstop doesn't pretend that their saws are
American made. That doesn't mean that they are
poorly made or of low quality--Gass is an
aggressive lawyer by training and experience so
it's a fair bet that the contracts are airtight.
Of course one can hope that he spends the rest
of his life in a Chinese court trying to
convince them to get his supplier to take the
fall for some famous pianist or some such
cutting his finger off (not that I wish ill on
pianists, just on Gass).

In article 4b1f4437-036f-4dac-91ca-3970e01de917
@googlegroups.com,
says...

On Sunday, January 8, 2017 at 2:45:41 PM UTC-6, Leon wrote:

Ignorance is bliss I guess, Honda, Toyota, Lexus, Acura are Asian
products and pretty much at the top of the hill.

Guessing everyone but you knew what I meant when I wrote Asian. Japan is excluded. China and similar countries are Asian. Kind of like saying European. Some think Germany and Switzerland. But Turkey and Slovakia and Hungary and Poland are European too. Same quality?

I have many Chinese products. Or Asian. The computer I am typing on is probably Chinese. TV too. They seem to be OK quality. But not what I consider the best of the best quality.

Just about all Intel or AMD based computers are
you know, including HP, Apple, and formerly IBM.

The machine I'm using now most people would
consider to be fairly high end--all Chinese
except the CPU and chipset which were made in a
US fab and then packaged somewhere offshore.

High end TV sets these days are typically
Japanese or Korean although they may be screwed
together in China.

On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 10:40:43 -0500, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

In article 4b1f4437-036f-4dac-91ca-3970e01de917
,
says...

On Sunday, January 8, 2017 at 2:45:41 PM UTC-6, Leon wrote:

Ignorance is bliss I guess, Honda, Toyota, Lexus, Acura are Asian
products and pretty much at the top of the hill.

Guessing everyone but you knew what I meant when I wrote Asian. Japan is excluded. China and similar countries are Asian. Kind of like saying European. Some think Germany and Switzerland. But Turkey and Slovakia and Hungary and Poland are European too. Same quality?

I have many Chinese products. Or Asian. The computer I am typing on is probably Chinese. TV too. They seem to be OK quality. But not what I consider the best of the best quality.

Just about all Intel or AMD based computers are
you know, including HP, Apple, and formerly IBM.

The machine I'm using now most people would
consider to be fairly high end--all Chinese
except the CPU and chipset which were made in a
US fab and then packaged somewhere offshore.

High end TV sets these days are typically
Japanese or Korean although they may be screwed
together in China.

I was going to ask if any are Japanese anymore but I guess Sony is
still around. The other name brands are all Korean.

On 1/15/2017 4:48 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 10:40:43 -0500, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

In article 4b1f4437-036f-4dac-91ca-3970e01de917
@googlegroups.com,
says...

On Sunday, January 8, 2017 at 2:45:41 PM UTC-6, Leon wrote:

Ignorance is bliss I guess, Honda, Toyota, Lexus, Acura are Asian
products and pretty much at the top of the hill.

Guessing everyone but you knew what I meant when I wrote Asian. Japan is excluded. China and similar countries are Asian. Kind of like saying European. Some think Germany and Switzerland. But Turkey and Slovakia and Hungary and Poland are European too. Same quality?

I have many Chinese products. Or Asian. The computer I am typing on is probably Chinese. TV too. They seem to be OK quality. But not what I consider the best of the best quality.

Just about all Intel or AMD based computers are
you know, including HP, Apple, and formerly IBM.

The machine I'm using now most people would
consider to be fairly high end--all Chinese
except the CPU and chipset which were made in a
US fab and then packaged somewhere offshore.

High end TV sets these days are typically
Japanese or Korean although they may be screwed
together in China.

I was going to ask if any are Japanese anymore but I guess Sony is
still around. The other name brands are all Korean.



Panasonic...Power tool and probably some TV's, at least in the last few
years.

On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 17:00:34 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 1/15/2017 4:48 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 10:40:43 -0500, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

In article 4b1f4437-036f-4dac-91ca-3970e01de917
@googlegroups.com,
says...

On Sunday, January 8, 2017 at 2:45:41 PM UTC-6, Leon wrote:

Ignorance is bliss I guess, Honda, Toyota, Lexus, Acura are Asian
products and pretty much at the top of the hill.

Guessing everyone but you knew what I meant when I wrote Asian. Japan is excluded. China and similar countries are Asian. Kind of like saying European. Some think Germany and Switzerland. But Turkey and Slovakia and Hungary and Poland are European too. Same quality?

I have many Chinese products. Or Asian. The computer I am typing on is probably Chinese. TV too. They seem to be OK quality. But not what I consider the best of the best quality.

Just about all Intel or AMD based computers are
you know, including HP, Apple, and formerly IBM.

The machine I'm using now most people would
consider to be fairly high end--all Chinese
except the CPU and chipset which were made in a
US fab and then packaged somewhere offshore.

High end TV sets these days are typically
Japanese or Korean although they may be screwed
together in China.

I was going to ask if any are Japanese anymore but I guess Sony is
still around. The other name brands are all Korean.



Panasonic...Power tool and probably some TV's, at least in the last few
years.

No consumer televisions. Though they invented the IPS LCD display
(and much of the rest of he technology), they bet big on plasma. And
lost. Panasonic is in transistion to all B-to-B, though the kitchen
stuff seems to be surviving.

In article 1vun7clelp069qts7q5s3e0o21k459rekc@
4ax.com, says...

On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 10:40:43 -0500, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

In article 4b1f4437-036f-4dac-91ca-3970e01de917
,
says...

On Sunday, January 8, 2017 at 2:45:41 PM UTC-6, Leon wrote:

Ignorance is bliss I guess, Honda, Toyota, Lexus, Acura are Asian
products and pretty much at the top of the hill.

Guessing everyone but you knew what I meant when I wrote Asian. Japan is excluded. China and similar countries are Asian. Kind of like saying European. Some think Germany and Switzerland. But Turkey and Slovakia and Hungary and Poland are European too. Same quality?

I have many Chinese products. Or Asian. The computer I am typing on is probably Chinese. TV too. They seem to be OK quality. But not what I consider the best of the best quality.

Just about all Intel or AMD based computers are
you know, including HP, Apple, and formerly IBM.

The machine I'm using now most people would
consider to be fairly high end--all Chinese
except the CPU and chipset which were made in a
US fab and then packaged somewhere offshore.

High end TV sets these days are typically
Japanese or Korean although they may be screwed
together in China.

I was going to ask if any are Japanese anymore but I guess Sony is
still around. The other name brands are all Korean.

Best Buy lists 4K TVs from Sony, Sharp, and
Toshiba--all well known Japanese brands. Where
the Japanese make them I have no idea.

On 1/15/2017 10:12 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
In article 1vun7clelp069qts7q5s3e0o21k459rekc@
4ax.com, says...

On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 10:40:43 -0500, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

In article 4b1f4437-036f-4dac-91ca-3970e01de917
@googlegroups.com,
says...

On Sunday, January 8, 2017 at 2:45:41 PM UTC-6, Leon wrote:

Ignorance is bliss I guess, Honda, Toyota, Lexus, Acura are Asian
products and pretty much at the top of the hill.

Guessing everyone but you knew what I meant when I wrote Asian. Japan is excluded. China and similar countries are Asian. Kind of like saying European. Some think Germany and Switzerland. But Turkey and Slovakia and Hungary and Poland are European too. Same quality?

I have many Chinese products. Or Asian. The computer I am typing on is probably Chinese. TV too. They seem to be OK quality. But not what I consider the best of the best quality.

Just about all Intel or AMD based computers are
you know, including HP, Apple, and formerly IBM.

The machine I'm using now most people would
consider to be fairly high end--all Chinese
except the CPU and chipset which were made in a
US fab and then packaged somewhere offshore.

High end TV sets these days are typically
Japanese or Korean although they may be screwed
together in China.

I was going to ask if any are Japanese anymore but I guess Sony is
still around. The other name brands are all Korean.

Best Buy lists 4K TVs from Sony, Sharp, and
Toshiba--all well known Japanese brands. Where
the Japanese make them I have no idea.


IIRC Sony TV's were/are made in North America.

On 1/15/2017 10:02 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 17:00:34 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 1/15/2017 4:48 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 10:40:43 -0500, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

In article 4b1f4437-036f-4dac-91ca-3970e01de917
@googlegroups.com,
says...

On Sunday, January 8, 2017 at 2:45:41 PM UTC-6, Leon wrote:

Ignorance is bliss I guess, Honda, Toyota, Lexus, Acura are Asian
products and pretty much at the top of the hill.

Guessing everyone but you knew what I meant when I wrote Asian. Japan is excluded. China and similar countries are Asian. Kind of like saying European. Some think Germany and Switzerland. But Turkey and Slovakia and Hungary and Poland are European too. Same quality?

I have many Chinese products. Or Asian. The computer I am typing on is probably Chinese. TV too. They seem to be OK quality. But not what I consider the best of the best quality.

Just about all Intel or AMD based computers are
you know, including HP, Apple, and formerly IBM.

The machine I'm using now most people would
consider to be fairly high end--all Chinese
except the CPU and chipset which were made in a
US fab and then packaged somewhere offshore.

High end TV sets these days are typically
Japanese or Korean although they may be screwed
together in China.

I was going to ask if any are Japanese anymore but I guess Sony is
still around. The other name brands are all Korean.



Panasonic...Power tool and probably some TV's, at least in the last few
years.

No consumer televisions. Though they invented the IPS LCD display
(and much of the rest of he technology), they bet big on plasma. And
lost. Panasonic is in transistion to all B-to-B, though the kitchen
stuff seems to be surviving.


http://shop.panasonic.com/tvs

On 1/15/2017 10:02 PM, wrote:


High end TV sets these days are typically
Japanese or Korean although they may be screwed
together in China.

I was going to ask if any are Japanese anymore but I guess Sony is
still around. The other name brands are all Korean.



Panasonic...Power tool and probably some TV's, at least in the last few
years.

No consumer televisions. Though they invented the IPS LCD display
(and much of the rest of he technology), they bet big on plasma. And
lost. Panasonic is in transistion to all B-to-B, though the kitchen
stuff seems to be surviving.



Oops...

Well it seems they are still selling TV's for now anyway.

https://www.panasonic.com/nz/consume...levisions.html

In article Jt2dncYN5Pz20uHFnZ2dnUU7-
, lcb11211@swbelldotnet
says...

On 1/15/2017 10:02 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 17:00:34 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 1/15/2017 4:48 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 10:40:43 -0500, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

In article 4b1f4437-036f-4dac-91ca-3970e01de917
@googlegroups.com,
says...

On Sunday, January 8, 2017 at 2:45:41 PM UTC-6, Leon wrote:

Ignorance is bliss I guess, Honda, Toyota, Lexus, Acura are Asian
products and pretty much at the top of the hill.

Guessing everyone but you knew what I meant when I wrote Asian. Japan is excluded. China and similar countries are Asian. Kind of like saying European. Some think Germany and Switzerland. But Turkey and Slovakia and Hungary and Poland are European too. Same quality?

I have many Chinese products. Or Asian. The computer I am typing on is probably Chinese. TV too. They seem to be OK quality. But not what I consider the best of the best quality.

Just about all Intel or AMD based computers are
you know, including HP, Apple, and formerly IBM.

The machine I'm using now most people would
consider to be fairly high end--all Chinese
except the CPU and chipset which were made in a
US fab and then packaged somewhere offshore.

High end TV sets these days are typically
Japanese or Korean although they may be screwed
together in China.

I was going to ask if any are Japanese anymore but I guess Sony is
still around. The other name brands are all Korean.



Panasonic...Power tool and probably some TV's, at least in the last few
years.

No consumer televisions. Though they invented the IPS LCD display
(and much of the rest of he technology), they bet big on plasma. And
lost. Panasonic is in transistion to all B-to-B, though the kitchen
stuff seems to be surviving.


http://shop.panasonic.com/tvs

Try to buy a TV off that site and see what
happens. The only things listed are HDMI cables
and replacement remotes.

In article paKdnW8356WFzuHFnZ2dnUU7-
, lcb11211@swbelldotnet
says...

On 1/15/2017 10:02 PM, wrote:


High end TV sets these days are typically
Japanese or Korean although they may be screwed
together in China.

I was going to ask if any are Japanese anymore but I guess Sony is
still around. The other name brands are all Korean.



Panasonic...Power tool and probably some TV's, at least in the last few
years.

No consumer televisions. Though they invented the IPS LCD display
(and much of the rest of he technology), they bet big on plasma. And
lost. Panasonic is in transistion to all B-to-B, though the kitchen
stuff seems to be surviving.



Oops...

Well it seems they are still selling TV's for now anyway.

https://www.panasonic.com/nz/consume...levisions.html

In New Zealand.

On 1/15/2017 11:15 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
In article Jt2dncYN5Pz20uHFnZ2dnUU7-
, lcb11211@swbelldotnet
says...

On 1/15/2017 10:02 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 17:00:34 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 1/15/2017 4:48 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 10:40:43 -0500, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

In article 4b1f4437-036f-4dac-91ca-3970e01de917
@googlegroups.com,
says...

On Sunday, January 8, 2017 at 2:45:41 PM UTC-6, Leon wrote:

Ignorance is bliss I guess, Honda, Toyota, Lexus, Acura are Asian
products and pretty much at the top of the hill.

Guessing everyone but you knew what I meant when I wrote Asian. Japan is excluded. China and similar countries are Asian. Kind of like saying European. Some think Germany and Switzerland. But Turkey and Slovakia and Hungary and Poland are European too. Same quality?

I have many Chinese products. Or Asian. The computer I am typing on is probably Chinese. TV too. They seem to be OK quality. But not what I consider the best of the best quality.

Just about all Intel or AMD based computers are
you know, including HP, Apple, and formerly IBM.

The machine I'm using now most people would
consider to be fairly high end--all Chinese
except the CPU and chipset which were made in a
US fab and then packaged somewhere offshore.

High end TV sets these days are typically
Japanese or Korean although they may be screwed
together in China.

I was going to ask if any are Japanese anymore but I guess Sony is
still around. The other name brands are all Korean.



Panasonic...Power tool and probably some TV's, at least in the last few
years.

No consumer televisions. Though they invented the IPS LCD display
(and much of the rest of he technology), they bet big on plasma. And
lost. Panasonic is in transistion to all B-to-B, though the kitchen
stuff seems to be surviving.


http://shop.panasonic.com/tvs

Try to buy a TV off that site and see what
happens. The only things listed are HDMI cables
and replacement remotes.


How about here.

https://www.walmart.com/ip/Panasonic...&wl13=&veh=sem

https://www.google.com/shopping/prod...QzkaAlkp8P8HAQ

But maybe not soon,

If you've been looking to buy a Panasonic TV but have had a hard time
finding one, here's why: The company, which has struggled in the U.S.
television business since it exited the plasma TV business back in 2014,
has quietly stopped selling sets here as it ponders its future in the
industry.

Panasonic sets are still on sale at a few retailers, including Walmart,
but most models are listed as unavailable on the Panasonic website.
However, if you do find one, you should have no qualms about buying it.
Panasonic TVs have typically done well in Consumer Reports' TV tests,
and the company says it will continue to provide service and parts for
the sets it sells and honor any warranties.

A Panasonic spokesperson said the company could return to the U.S.
market in the near future, and it continues to sell TVs in other parts
of the world, including Canada, Europe, and Asia.

The company was notably quiet about new TVs during the CES trade show
back in January. At that time, the company indicated it would have both
a 4K Ultra HD Blu-ray player and a 4K OLED TV this year, but so far
neither has made it to the U.S. market.

On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 22:43:21 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 1/15/2017 10:02 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 17:00:34 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 1/15/2017 4:48 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 10:40:43 -0500, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

In article 4b1f4437-036f-4dac-91ca-3970e01de917
@googlegroups.com,
says...

On Sunday, January 8, 2017 at 2:45:41 PM UTC-6, Leon wrote:

Ignorance is bliss I guess, Honda, Toyota, Lexus, Acura are Asian
products and pretty much at the top of the hill.

Guessing everyone but you knew what I meant when I wrote Asian. Japan is excluded. China and similar countries are Asian. Kind of like saying European. Some think Germany and Switzerland. But Turkey and Slovakia and Hungary and Poland are European too. Same quality?

I have many Chinese products. Or Asian. The computer I am typing on is probably Chinese. TV too. They seem to be OK quality. But not what I consider the best of the best quality.

Just about all Intel or AMD based computers are
you know, including HP, Apple, and formerly IBM.

The machine I'm using now most people would
consider to be fairly high end--all Chinese
except the CPU and chipset which were made in a
US fab and then packaged somewhere offshore.

High end TV sets these days are typically
Japanese or Korean although they may be screwed
together in China.

I was going to ask if any are Japanese anymore but I guess Sony is
still around. The other name brands are all Korean.



Panasonic...Power tool and probably some TV's, at least in the last few
years.

No consumer televisions. Though they invented the IPS LCD display
(and much of the rest of he technology), they bet big on plasma. And
lost. Panasonic is in transistion to all B-to-B, though the kitchen
stuff seems to be surviving.


http://shop.panasonic.com/tvs


Where are the TVs?

On Mon, 16 Jan 2017 08:51:36 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 1/15/2017 11:15 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
In article Jt2dncYN5Pz20uHFnZ2dnUU7-
, lcb11211@swbelldotnet
says...

On 1/15/2017 10:02 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 17:00:34 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 1/15/2017 4:48 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 10:40:43 -0500, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

In article 4b1f4437-036f-4dac-91ca-3970e01de917
@googlegroups.com,
says...

On Sunday, January 8, 2017 at 2:45:41 PM UTC-6, Leon wrote:

Ignorance is bliss I guess, Honda, Toyota, Lexus, Acura are Asian
products and pretty much at the top of the hill.

Guessing everyone but you knew what I meant when I wrote Asian. Japan is excluded. China and similar countries are Asian. Kind of like saying European. Some think Germany and Switzerland. But Turkey and Slovakia and Hungary and Poland are European too. Same quality?

I have many Chinese products. Or Asian. The computer I am typing on is probably Chinese. TV too. They seem to be OK quality. But not what I consider the best of the best quality.

Just about all Intel or AMD based computers are
you know, including HP, Apple, and formerly IBM.

The machine I'm using now most people would
consider to be fairly high end--all Chinese
except the CPU and chipset which were made in a
US fab and then packaged somewhere offshore.

High end TV sets these days are typically
Japanese or Korean although they may be screwed
together in China.

I was going to ask if any are Japanese anymore but I guess Sony is
still around. The other name brands are all Korean.



Panasonic...Power tool and probably some TV's, at least in the last few
years.

No consumer televisions. Though they invented the IPS LCD display
(and much of the rest of he technology), they bet big on plasma. And
lost. Panasonic is in transistion to all B-to-B, though the kitchen
stuff seems to be surviving.


http://shop.panasonic.com/tvs

Try to buy a TV off that site and see what
happens. The only things listed are HDMI cables
and replacement remotes.


How about here.

https://www.walmart.com/ip/Panasonic...&wl13=&veh=sem

https://www.google.com/shopping/prod...QzkaAlkp8P8HAQ

But maybe not soon,

If you've been looking to buy a Panasonic TV but have had a hard time
finding one, here's why: The company, which has struggled in the U.S.
television business since it exited the plasma TV business back in 2014,
has quietly stopped selling sets here as it ponders its future in the
industry.

Panasonic sets are still on sale at a few retailers, including Walmart,
but most models are listed as unavailable on the Panasonic website.
However, if you do find one, you should have no qualms about buying it.
Panasonic TVs have typically done well in Consumer Reports' TV tests,
and the company says it will continue to provide service and parts for
the sets it sells and honor any warranties.

A Panasonic spokesperson said the company could return to the U.S.
market in the near future, and it continues to sell TVs in other parts
of the world, including Canada, Europe, and Asia.

"Spokespersons" never talk in absolutes.

The company was notably quiet about new TVs during the CES trade show
back in January. At that time, the company indicated it would have both
a 4K Ultra HD Blu-ray player and a 4K OLED TV this year, but so far
neither has made it to the U.S. market.

Or anywhere else. They are out of the consumer TV market. Losing
nine or ten zeros (a year) will make a company think about the markets
they're going to service and the one's they're not.

Consider the cable sizes. For a given power, the higher voltage is
smaller copper and thus lower weight.

Martin

On 1/15/2017 7:18 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
In article ,
says...

On 1/7/2017 1:39 PM, Leon wrote:

Today "safe" is considered to be around 12V. I can't think
of any situation where you'd consider 110V to be "safe",
unless you're comparing it to something like 1200V.

"Safe" is considered to be anything less than 52V. There was once
talk about the automotive industry moving to a 48V battery. The
reason for 48V was that it was just below the "safe" limit. Of course
it never happened because it would have caused more problems than it
solved.



When was that talk? No doubt, there is always something in the air but
I never read or heard of that back when I was in the automotive business.

I'm sure it was intended to help make vehicles lighter in weight.



Coming soon, evidently


Not every electrical component will switch to 48-volt. Lights, radios,
electric windows and door locks, for example, would stay 12-volt. And
Delphi?s vision is that vehicles with 48-volt systems would also have a
strong regenerative braking system to capture much of the energy lost
when a vehicle slows down.

Read mo
http://autoweek.com/article/technolo...#ixzz4V6czYRqB

And when you can buy a car that says "Delphi
Motors" on the front then the industry will give
a crap what bull**** "Delphi" is trying to sell.

Bolt runs on 350v, Volt runs on 360, Tesla runs
on 375. All have 12v subsystems to support
various accessories. The notion that 48v is of
some great advantage in building hybrids and
electrics has little contact with reality.

In article ,
says...

Consider the cable sizes. For a given power, the higher voltage is
smaller copper and thus lower weight.

If you already have 350v on board where's the
benefit for 48?

And for a non-hybrid what percentage of the
weight of the vehicle is electrical wiring? And
of that weight, how much is copper conductors
and how much is connectors, insulation, mounting
brackets, and whatnot?

And even the people trying to sell 48v don't
claim that it will do away with 12v--48v is
going to be an _additional_ electrical system.

Martin

On 1/15/2017 7:18 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
In article ,
says...

On 1/7/2017 1:39 PM, Leon wrote:

Today "safe" is considered to be around 12V. I can't think
of any situation where you'd consider 110V to be "safe",
unless you're comparing it to something like 1200V.

"Safe" is considered to be anything less than 52V. There was once
talk about the automotive industry moving to a 48V battery. The
reason for 48V was that it was just below the "safe" limit. Of course
it never happened because it would have caused more problems than it
solved.



When was that talk? No doubt, there is always something in the air but
I never read or heard of that back when I was in the automotive business.

I'm sure it was intended to help make vehicles lighter in weight.



Coming soon, evidently


Not every electrical component will switch to 48-volt. Lights, radios,
electric windows and door locks, for example, would stay 12-volt. And
Delphi?s vision is that vehicles with 48-volt systems would also have a
strong regenerative braking system to capture much of the energy lost
when a vehicle slows down.

Read mo
http://autoweek.com/article/technolo...#ixzz4V6czYRqB

And when you can buy a car that says "Delphi
Motors" on the front then the industry will give
a crap what bull**** "Delphi" is trying to sell.

Bolt runs on 350v, Volt runs on 360, Tesla runs
on 375. All have 12v subsystems to support
various accessories. The notion that 48v is of
some great advantage in building hybrids and
electrics has little contact with reality.

On Tue, 17 Jan 2017 00:48:18 -0500, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

In article ,
says...

Consider the cable sizes. For a given power, the higher voltage is
smaller copper and thus lower weight.

If you already have 350v on board where's the
benefit for 48?

As opposed to 12? None. As opposed to 350V, only? A lot!

And for a non-hybrid what percentage of the
weight of the vehicle is electrical wiring? And
of that weight, how much is copper conductors
and how much is connectors, insulation, mounting
brackets, and whatnot?

It's quite a lot of weight and all (expensive) copper.

And even the people trying to sell 48v don't
claim that it will do away with 12v--48v is
going to be an _additional_ electrical system.

I never heard 48V being proposed for hybrids but I have for IC cars.
Of course there won't be all three. I highly doubt that 48V will ever
be common.

Being one of the expensive metals it is a major cost.
Being a heavy metal it is a major cost. Battery cables are not thin.

It is the whole ball of wax to consider. And modules don't run on 350v.
Likely there are various voltages already. Proper power is a complex
subject. It isn't just weight or voltage.

This is getting far from wood working and should limit itself.

Martin

On 1/16/2017 11:48 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
In article ,
says...

Consider the cable sizes. For a given power, the higher voltage is
smaller copper and thus lower weight.

If you already have 350v on board where's the
benefit for 48?

And for a non-hybrid what percentage of the
weight of the vehicle is electrical wiring? And
of that weight, how much is copper conductors
and how much is connectors, insulation, mounting
brackets, and whatnot?

And even the people trying to sell 48v don't
claim that it will do away with 12v--48v is
going to be an _additional_ electrical system.

Martin

On 1/15/2017 7:18 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
In article ,
says...

On 1/7/2017 1:39 PM, Leon wrote:

Today "safe" is considered to be around 12V. I can't think
of any situation where you'd consider 110V to be "safe",
unless you're comparing it to something like 1200V.

"Safe" is considered to be anything less than 52V. There was once
talk about the automotive industry moving to a 48V battery. The
reason for 48V was that it was just below the "safe" limit. Of course
it never happened because it would have caused more problems than it
solved.



When was that talk? No doubt, there is always something in the air but
I never read or heard of that back when I was in the automotive business.

I'm sure it was intended to help make vehicles lighter in weight.



Coming soon, evidently


Not every electrical component will switch to 48-volt. Lights, radios,
electric windows and door locks, for example, would stay 12-volt. And
Delphi?s vision is that vehicles with 48-volt systems would also have a
strong regenerative braking system to capture much of the energy lost
when a vehicle slows down.

Read mo
http://autoweek.com/article/technolo...#ixzz4V6czYRqB

And when you can buy a car that says "Delphi
Motors" on the front then the industry will give
a crap what bull**** "Delphi" is trying to sell.

Bolt runs on 350v, Volt runs on 360, Tesla runs
on 375. All have 12v subsystems to support
various accessories. The notion that 48v is of
some great advantage in building hybrids and
electrics has little contact with reality.

In article ,
says...

Being one of the expensive metals it is a major cost.
Being a heavy metal it is a major cost.
Battery cables are not thin.

So what? I haven't seen a _number_ from you,
just arm waving.

What percentage of the cost of a $20,000 car is
battery cables? What percentage of the weight
of a 2000 pound car is battery cables?

How much will that cost and weight be reduced by
going to 48v?

It is the whole ball of wax to consider. And modules don't run on 350v.

They don't run on 48 either unless they are
designed to.

Likely there are various voltages already. Proper power is a complex
subject. It isn't just weight or voltage.

Then why are you on about weight and voltage?

This is getting far from wood working and should limit itself.

Tell that to whoever decided to bring the Church
Of 48v Cars into the discussion.

On 1/16/2017 11:48 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
In article ,
says...

Consider the cable sizes. For a given power, the higher voltage is
smaller copper and thus lower weight.

If you already have 350v on board where's the
benefit for 48?

And for a non-hybrid what percentage of the
weight of the vehicle is electrical wiring? And
of that weight, how much is copper conductors
and how much is connectors, insulation, mounting
brackets, and whatnot?

And even the people trying to sell 48v don't
claim that it will do away with 12v--48v is
going to be an _additional_ electrical system.

Martin

On 1/15/2017 7:18 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
In article ,
says...

On 1/7/2017 1:39 PM, Leon wrote:

Today "safe" is considered to be around 12V. I can't think
of any situation where you'd consider 110V to be "safe",
unless you're comparing it to something like 1200V.

"Safe" is considered to be anything less than 52V. There was once
talk about the automotive industry moving to a 48V battery. The
reason for 48V was that it was just below the "safe" limit. Of course
it never happened because it would have caused more problems than it
solved.



When was that talk? No doubt, there is always something in the air but
I never read or heard of that back when I was in the automotive business.

I'm sure it was intended to help make vehicles lighter in weight.



Coming soon, evidently


Not every electrical component will switch to 48-volt. Lights, radios,
electric windows and door locks, for example, would stay 12-volt. And
Delphi?s vision is that vehicles with 48-volt systems would also have a
strong regenerative braking system to capture much of the energy lost
when a vehicle slows down.

Read mo
http://autoweek.com/article/technolo...#ixzz4V6czYRqB

And when you can buy a car that says "Delphi
Motors" on the front then the industry will give
a crap what bull**** "Delphi" is trying to sell.

Bolt runs on 350v, Volt runs on 360, Tesla runs
on 375. All have 12v subsystems to support
various accessories. The notion that 48v is of
some great advantage in building hybrids and
electrics has little contact with reality.

On 1/19/2017 7:46 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
In article ,
says...

Being one of the expensive metals it is a major cost.
Being a heavy metal it is a major cost.
Battery cables are not thin.

So what? I haven't seen a _number_ from you,
just arm waving.

What percentage of the cost of a $20,000 car is
battery cables? What percentage of the weight
of a 2000 pound car is battery cables?

It has been a long standing practice that if a car company could save
two or three cents doing something differently that works they will
reengineer to make that happen. Many vehicle recalls are to undo what
saving a few cents during manufacturing caused to be problematic.
Probably with out exception the G body GM vehicles from 1978 on had a
campaign to replace every every rear control arm bolt, both sides. The
cost of the replacement bolt kit, 2 bolts and 2 lock nuts, $1.35.
Every G body vehicle that came into our shop automatically had these
bolts replaced if it had not already been done. It was about a 15
minute procedure that we often never told the customer about.

In article Dr6dnXTZotxCAhzFnZ2dnUU7-
, lcb11211@swbelldotnet
says...

On 1/19/2017 7:46 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
In article ,
says...

Being one of the expensive metals it is a major cost.
Being a heavy metal it is a major cost.
Battery cables are not thin.

So what? I haven't seen a _number_ from you,
just arm waving.

What percentage of the cost of a $20,000 car is
battery cables? What percentage of the weight
of a 2000 pound car is battery cables?

It has been a long standing practice that if a car company could save
two or three cents doing something differently that works they will
reengineer to make that happen.

That's true, but will having two different
electrical systems one on 12v and the other one
48v actually save those few cents?

I'm sorry, Leon, but this is clearly some vendor
of 48v equipment trying to sell his stuff.

Many vehicle recalls are to undo what
saving a few cents during manufacturing caused to be problematic.
Probably with out exception the G body GM vehicles from 1978 on had a
campaign to replace every every rear control arm bolt, both sides. The
cost of the replacement bolt kit, 2 bolts and 2 lock nuts, $1.35.
Every G body vehicle that came into our shop automatically had these
bolts replaced if it had not already been done. It was about a 15
minute procedure that we often never told the customer about.

According to the recall the issue was lack of
corrosion resistance in a specially hardened
bolt and the replacements were actually weaker
than the originals but had more corrosion
resistance. Doesn't sound like a case of
cheaping out to me. There are such, like the
Pinto, but I don't think you've picked one.

On 1/20/2017 6:09 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
In article Dr6dnXTZotxCAhzFnZ2dnUU7-
, lcb11211@swbelldotnet
says...

On 1/19/2017 7:46 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
In article ,
says...

Being one of the expensive metals it is a major cost.
Being a heavy metal it is a major cost.
Battery cables are not thin.

So what? I haven't seen a _number_ from you,
just arm waving.

What percentage of the cost of a $20,000 car is
battery cables? What percentage of the weight
of a 2000 pound car is battery cables?

It has been a long standing practice that if a car company could save
two or three cents doing something differently that works they will
reengineer to make that happen.

That's true, but will having two different
electrical systems one on 12v and the other one
48v actually save those few cents?

Only if the wiring can be down sized, that might safe a little and a
little weight to help increase MPG. It seems they will do any thing to
rig what they have to work.

I recall Oldsmobiles Diesel engines. They had the worst fuel filter
system ever until the last year of production. Then they added a
water/fuel separator.




I'm sorry, Leon, but this is clearly some vendor
of 48v equipment trying to sell his stuff.

That is probably true too, and likely a division of that corporation
trying to pull it's weight.


Many vehicle recalls are to undo what
saving a few cents during manufacturing caused to be problematic.
Probably with out exception the G body GM vehicles from 1978 on had a
campaign to replace every every rear control arm bolt, both sides. The
cost of the replacement bolt kit, 2 bolts and 2 lock nuts, $1.35.
Every G body vehicle that came into our shop automatically had these
bolts replaced if it had not already been done. It was about a 15
minute procedure that we often never told the customer about.

According to the recall the issue was lack of
corrosion resistance in a specially hardened
bolt and the replacements were actually weaker
than the originals but had more corrosion
resistance. Doesn't sound like a case of
cheaping out to me. There are such, like the
Pinto, but I don't think you've picked one.

I think 90% of all recalls is a case of the manufacturer cutting some
kind of corner. And that corner cutting could simply be not enough
product testing before committing.

On Fri, 20 Jan 2017 08:20:01 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 1/20/2017 6:09 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
In article Dr6dnXTZotxCAhzFnZ2dnUU7-
, lcb11211@swbelldotnet
says...

On 1/19/2017 7:46 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
In article ,
says...

Being one of the expensive metals it is a major cost.
Being a heavy metal it is a major cost.
Battery cables are not thin.

So what? I haven't seen a _number_ from you,
just arm waving.

What percentage of the cost of a $20,000 car is
battery cables? What percentage of the weight
of a 2000 pound car is battery cables?

It has been a long standing practice that if a car company could save
two or three cents doing something differently that works they will
reengineer to make that happen.

That's true, but will having two different
electrical systems one on 12v and the other one
48v actually save those few cents?

Only if the wiring can be down sized, that might safe a little and a
little weight to help increase MPG. It seems they will do any thing to
rig what they have to work.

That's the bottom line. If it weren't for CAFE standards, there
would be no talk of 48V systems (or aluminum F150s).

On 1/20/2017 11:46 AM, wrote:
On Fri, 20 Jan 2017 08:20:01 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 1/20/2017 6:09 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
In article Dr6dnXTZotxCAhzFnZ2dnUU7-
, lcb11211@swbelldotnet
says...

On 1/19/2017 7:46 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
In article ,
says...

Being one of the expensive metals it is a major cost.
Being a heavy metal it is a major cost.
Battery cables are not thin.

So what? I haven't seen a _number_ from you,
just arm waving.

What percentage of the cost of a $20,000 car is
battery cables? What percentage of the weight
of a 2000 pound car is battery cables?

It has been a long standing practice that if a car company could save
two or three cents doing something differently that works they will
reengineer to make that happen.

That's true, but will having two different
electrical systems one on 12v and the other one
48v actually save those few cents?

Only if the wiring can be down sized, that might safe a little and a
little weight to help increase MPG. It seems they will do any thing to
rig what they have to work.

That's the bottom line. If it weren't for CAFE standards, there
would be no talk of 48V systems (or aluminum F150s).


You surely have seen the Chevy commercials comparing the aluminum Ford
bed to the steel Chevy bed.

Chevy will be building the next years modes with aluminum too. GM,
always a day late and a dollar short.

I wonder how they will advertise that!

On Fri, 20 Jan 2017 15:15:55 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 1/20/2017 11:46 AM, wrote:
On Fri, 20 Jan 2017 08:20:01 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 1/20/2017 6:09 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
In article Dr6dnXTZotxCAhzFnZ2dnUU7-
, lcb11211@swbelldotnet
says...

On 1/19/2017 7:46 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
In article ,
says...

Being one of the expensive metals it is a major cost.
Being a heavy metal it is a major cost.
Battery cables are not thin.

So what? I haven't seen a _number_ from you,
just arm waving.

What percentage of the cost of a $20,000 car is
battery cables? What percentage of the weight
of a 2000 pound car is battery cables?

It has been a long standing practice that if a car company could save
two or three cents doing something differently that works they will
reengineer to make that happen.

That's true, but will having two different
electrical systems one on 12v and the other one
48v actually save those few cents?

Only if the wiring can be down sized, that might safe a little and a
little weight to help increase MPG. It seems they will do any thing to
rig what they have to work.

That's the bottom line. If it weren't for CAFE standards, there
would be no talk of 48V systems (or aluminum F150s).


You surely have seen the Chevy commercials comparing the aluminum Ford
bed to the steel Chevy bed.

Yup. Ford made a huge mistake.

Chevy will be building the next years modes with aluminum too. GM,
always a day late and a dollar short.

Dumb. They're going to chase people to the Japanese trucks.

I wonder how they will advertise that!

Ford is comming out with a brand new F150 next year (don't know if
it's AL). This model didn't last long.

On 1/20/2017 7:23 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 20 Jan 2017 15:15:55 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 1/20/2017 11:46 AM, wrote:
On Fri, 20 Jan 2017 08:20:01 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 1/20/2017 6:09 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
In article Dr6dnXTZotxCAhzFnZ2dnUU7-
, lcb11211@swbelldotnet
says...

On 1/19/2017 7:46 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
In article ,
says...

Being one of the expensive metals it is a major cost.
Being a heavy metal it is a major cost.
Battery cables are not thin.

So what? I haven't seen a _number_ from you,
just arm waving.

What percentage of the cost of a $20,000 car is
battery cables? What percentage of the weight
of a 2000 pound car is battery cables?

It has been a long standing practice that if a car company could save
two or three cents doing something differently that works they will
reengineer to make that happen.

That's true, but will having two different
electrical systems one on 12v and the other one
48v actually save those few cents?

Only if the wiring can be down sized, that might safe a little and a
little weight to help increase MPG. It seems they will do any thing to
rig what they have to work.

That's the bottom line. If it weren't for CAFE standards, there
would be no talk of 48V systems (or aluminum F150s).


You surely have seen the Chevy commercials comparing the aluminum Ford
bed to the steel Chevy bed.

Yup. Ford made a huge mistake.

Chevy will be building the next years modes with aluminum too. GM,
always a day late and a dollar short.

Dumb. They're going to chase people to the Japanese trucks.

I wonder how they will advertise that!

Ford is comming out with a brand new F150 next year (don't know if
it's AL). This model didn't last long.

It is a refresh, I think the aluminum is going to stick.

Either way I was a GM man for years until I had to take the brunt of the
problems, Service Sales manager for a GM dealership, I went Japanese as
soon as I could. Still drivin an 07 Tundra.

On Fri, 20 Jan 2017 21:23:11 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 1/20/2017 7:23 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 20 Jan 2017 15:15:55 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 1/20/2017 11:46 AM, wrote:
On Fri, 20 Jan 2017 08:20:01 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 1/20/2017 6:09 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
In article Dr6dnXTZotxCAhzFnZ2dnUU7-
, lcb11211@swbelldotnet
says...

On 1/19/2017 7:46 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
In article ,
says...

Being one of the expensive metals it is a major cost.
Being a heavy metal it is a major cost.
Battery cables are not thin.

So what? I haven't seen a _number_ from you,
just arm waving.

What percentage of the cost of a $20,000 car is
battery cables? What percentage of the weight
of a 2000 pound car is battery cables?

It has been a long standing practice that if a car company could save
two or three cents doing something differently that works they will
reengineer to make that happen.

That's true, but will having two different
electrical systems one on 12v and the other one
48v actually save those few cents?

Only if the wiring can be down sized, that might safe a little and a
little weight to help increase MPG. It seems they will do any thing to
rig what they have to work.

That's the bottom line. If it weren't for CAFE standards, there
would be no talk of 48V systems (or aluminum F150s).


You surely have seen the Chevy commercials comparing the aluminum Ford
bed to the steel Chevy bed.

Yup. Ford made a huge mistake.

Chevy will be building the next years modes with aluminum too. GM,
always a day late and a dollar short.

Dumb. They're going to chase people to the Japanese trucks.

I wonder how they will advertise that!

Ford is comming out with a brand new F150 next year (don't know if
it's AL). This model didn't last long.

It is a refresh, I think the aluminum is going to stick.

Either way I was a GM man for years until I had to take the brunt of the
problems, Service Sales manager for a GM dealership, I went Japanese as
soon as I could. Still drivin an 07 Tundra.

The Japanese trucks were a good $15K-$20K more than I paid for my
F150. Not close to competetive.

On 1/20/2017 10:23 PM, Leon wrote:


Either way I was a GM man for years until I had to take the brunt of the
problems, Service Sales manager for a GM dealership, I went Japanese as
soon as I could. Still drivin an 07 Tundra.

I drove GM cars for years as did my father and brother. Every one had
to go back to the dealer for adjustments. The last one was falling apart
in five years. I switched to Korean cars 10 years ago. After nearly
60k miles one had to go back for a minor repair under warranty.