On Fri, 20 Jan 2017 15:15:55 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 1/20/2017 11:46 AM, wrote:
On Fri, 20 Jan 2017 08:20:01 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 1/20/2017 6:09 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
In article Dr6dnXTZotxCAhzFnZ2dnUU7-
, lcb11211@swbelldotnet
says...

On 1/19/2017 7:46 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
In article ,
says...

Being one of the expensive metals it is a major cost.
Being a heavy metal it is a major cost.
Battery cables are not thin.

So what? I haven't seen a _number_ from you,
just arm waving.

What percentage of the cost of a $20,000 car is
battery cables? What percentage of the weight
of a 2000 pound car is battery cables?

It has been a long standing practice that if a car company could save
two or three cents doing something differently that works they will
reengineer to make that happen.

That's true, but will having two different
electrical systems one on 12v and the other one
48v actually save those few cents?

Only if the wiring can be down sized, that might safe a little and a
little weight to help increase MPG. It seems they will do any thing to
rig what they have to work.

That's the bottom line. If it weren't for CAFE standards, there
would be no talk of 48V systems (or aluminum F150s).


You surely have seen the Chevy commercials comparing the aluminum Ford
bed to the steel Chevy bed.

Chevy will be building the next years modes with aluminum too. GM,
always a day late and a dollar short.

I wonder how they will advertise that!

Same way our aluminum is tougher, but I alway wonder why the guy
dumping into the Ford jerks the controls?

On 01/20/2017 11:06 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 1/20/2017 10:23 PM, Leon wrote:


Either way I was a GM man for years until I had to take the brunt of the
problems, Service Sales manager for a GM dealership, I went Japanese as
soon as I could. Still drivin an 07 Tundra.

I drove GM cars for years as did my father and brother. Every one had to
go back to the dealer for adjustments. The last one was falling apart in
five years. I switched to Korean cars 10 years ago. After nearly 60k
miles one had to go back for a minor repair under warranty.

I know "everybody" likes to bash on something, but otoh, after the big
ice storm I got out the '58 Chebby C60 grain truck that's not had a
major repair needed in its now 59th yr of use...and while it's not been
used as much in recent years as was when new (first 20 yr or so ),
it's still in the rotation as the seed tender during planting season...

dpb wrote:
On 01/20/2017 11:06 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 1/20/2017 10:23 PM, Leon wrote:


Either way I was a GM man for years until I had to take the brunt of the
problems, Service Sales manager for a GM dealership, I went Japanese as
soon as I could. Still drivin an 07 Tundra.

I drove GM cars for years as did my father and brother. Every one had to
go back to the dealer for adjustments. The last one was falling apart in
five years. I switched to Korean cars 10 years ago. After nearly 60k
miles one had to go back for a minor repair under warranty.

I know "everybody" likes to bash on something, but otoh, after the big
ice storm I got out the '58 Chebby C60 grain truck that's not had a
major repair needed in its now 59th yr of use...and while it's not been
used as much in recent years as was when new (first 20 yr or so ),
it's still in the rotation as the seed tender during planting season...

Last spring a roofer was re-roofing my house. One of his crew called
and said they were having problems with one of his trucks. He said,
"I can't imagine what could be wrong--it only has 350 thousand miles
on it". It was a Chevy.

--
GW Ross

On 01/21/2017 8:29 AM, G. Ross wrote:
dpb wrote:
....

I know "everybody" likes to bash on something, but otoh, after the big
ice storm I got out the '58 Chebby C60 grain truck that's not had a
major repair needed in its now 59th yr of use...and while it's not been
used as much in recent years as was when new (first 20 yr or so ),
it's still in the rotation as the seed tender during planting season...

Last spring a roofer was re-roofing my house. One of his crew called and
said they were having problems with one of his trucks. He said, "I can't
imagine what could be wrong--it only has 350 thousand miles on it". It
was a Chevy.

No idea on mileage on "Big Blue", one flaw to pick on is the nylon
speedometer gears weren't up to the dirt of SW KS farm use, apparently.
We had three in the '58/'59 year model and each lost speed/odo-meter
at around the 40K mark; I think this one still has 39,998 on it if I
remember correctly...

It was never over-the-road truck rather "farm-to-market" where our
farmstead is 10 mi from grain elevators in town. But I've no way to
estimate how many trips it must've made in the years it was one of the
primary haulers before the switchover to large tandems and then later
the tractor-trailer setups. With the advent of such large harvesting
equipment now in use, it seems like a toy that was a big truck back then.

I've thought over the last couple years I should spend a winter and pull
the heads and do rings and a new cam/distributor as it has finally
gotten to where it could use a little TLC although I've so much down
I've run out of room for burning here on the place so have been hauling
to the city location out by the airport which is about a 15-mi round
trip and a few of those (think I've done 10 loads so far, about half of
what there is to dispose of that was already down, _before_ beginning
any pruning up of the remaining crags) has helped it seems as it hadn't
done other than just local on the farmstead chores for a couple of years
now...


--

On 1/21/2017 8:00 AM, dpb wrote:
On 01/20/2017 11:06 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 1/20/2017 10:23 PM, Leon wrote:


Either way I was a GM man for years until I had to take the brunt of the
problems, Service Sales manager for a GM dealership, I went Japanese as
soon as I could. Still drivin an 07 Tundra.

I drove GM cars for years as did my father and brother. Every one had to
go back to the dealer for adjustments. The last one was falling apart in
five years. I switched to Korean cars 10 years ago. After nearly 60k
miles one had to go back for a minor repair under warranty.

I know "everybody" likes to bash on something, but otoh, after the big
ice storm I got out the '58 Chebby C60 grain truck that's not had a
major repair needed in its now 59th yr of use...and while it's not been
used as much in recent years as was when new (first 20 yr or so ),
it's still in the rotation as the seed tender during planting season...



If only they would build them like the use'ta.

On 1/21/2017 8:29 AM, G. Ross wrote:
dpb wrote:
On 01/20/2017 11:06 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 1/20/2017 10:23 PM, Leon wrote:


Either way I was a GM man for years until I had to take the brunt of
the
problems, Service Sales manager for a GM dealership, I went Japanese as
soon as I could. Still drivin an 07 Tundra.

I drove GM cars for years as did my father and brother. Every one had to
go back to the dealer for adjustments. The last one was falling apart in
five years. I switched to Korean cars 10 years ago. After nearly 60k
miles one had to go back for a minor repair under warranty.

I know "everybody" likes to bash on something, but otoh, after the big
ice storm I got out the '58 Chebby C60 grain truck that's not had a
major repair needed in its now 59th yr of use...and while it's not been
used as much in recent years as was when new (first 20 yr or so ),
it's still in the rotation as the seed tender during planting season...

Last spring a roofer was re-roofing my house. One of his crew called
and said they were having problems with one of his trucks. He said, "I
can't imagine what could be wrong--it only has 350 thousand miles on
it". It was a Chevy.


I had a friend that put 250K on a Suburban. He had to use fuel additives
to get it to pass emission inspections and it looked like Fred Sanfords
vehicle. ;~)

They all will last, regardless of brand, if you continue to repair what
breaks.

On Fri, 20 Jan 2017 23:34:29 -0600, Markem
wrote:

On Fri, 20 Jan 2017 15:15:55 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 1/20/2017 11:46 AM, wrote:
On Fri, 20 Jan 2017 08:20:01 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 1/20/2017 6:09 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
In article Dr6dnXTZotxCAhzFnZ2dnUU7-
, lcb11211@swbelldotnet
says...

On 1/19/2017 7:46 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
In article ,
says...

Being one of the expensive metals it is a major cost.
Being a heavy metal it is a major cost.
Battery cables are not thin.

So what? I haven't seen a _number_ from you,
just arm waving.

What percentage of the cost of a $20,000 car is
battery cables? What percentage of the weight
of a 2000 pound car is battery cables?

It has been a long standing practice that if a car company could save
two or three cents doing something differently that works they will
reengineer to make that happen.

That's true, but will having two different
electrical systems one on 12v and the other one
48v actually save those few cents?

Only if the wiring can be down sized, that might safe a little and a
little weight to help increase MPG. It seems they will do any thing to
rig what they have to work.

That's the bottom line. If it weren't for CAFE standards, there
would be no talk of 48V systems (or aluminum F150s).


You surely have seen the Chevy commercials comparing the aluminum Ford
bed to the steel Chevy bed.

Chevy will be building the next years modes with aluminum too. GM,
always a day late and a dollar short.

I wonder how they will advertise that!

Same way our aluminum is tougher, but I alway wonder why the guy
dumping into the Ford jerks the controls?

The problem I have with aluminum is its ability to be repaired by the
corner body shop. Any idiot can pound steel. AL is a lot more
difficult. More difficult to paint, too.

As far as tearing up the bed, I'd be warry of dumping a load of gravel
into it.

On Sat, 21 Jan 2017 09:35:16 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 1/21/2017 8:29 AM, G. Ross wrote:
dpb wrote:
On 01/20/2017 11:06 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 1/20/2017 10:23 PM, Leon wrote:


Either way I was a GM man for years until I had to take the brunt of
the
problems, Service Sales manager for a GM dealership, I went Japanese as
soon as I could. Still drivin an 07 Tundra.

I drove GM cars for years as did my father and brother. Every one had to
go back to the dealer for adjustments. The last one was falling apart in
five years. I switched to Korean cars 10 years ago. After nearly 60k
miles one had to go back for a minor repair under warranty.

I know "everybody" likes to bash on something, but otoh, after the big
ice storm I got out the '58 Chebby C60 grain truck that's not had a
major repair needed in its now 59th yr of use...and while it's not been
used as much in recent years as was when new (first 20 yr or so ),
it's still in the rotation as the seed tender during planting season...

Last spring a roofer was re-roofing my house. One of his crew called
and said they were having problems with one of his trucks. He said, "I
can't imagine what could be wrong--it only has 350 thousand miles on
it". It was a Chevy.


I had a friend that put 250K on a Suburban. He had to use fuel additives
to get it to pass emission inspections and it looked like Fred Sanfords
vehicle. ;~)

They all will last, regardless of brand, if you continue to repair what
breaks.

Until you can't. The rear frame, where the wprings connect, rotted
out on my '00 Ranger. There was no fix, well, that anyone would stand
behind with their insurance, anyway. Salt is really tough on
vehicles.

On 1/21/2017 10:05 AM, wrote:
On Fri, 20 Jan 2017 23:34:29 -0600, Markem
wrote:

On Fri, 20 Jan 2017 15:15:55 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 1/20/2017 11:46 AM, wrote:
On Fri, 20 Jan 2017 08:20:01 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 1/20/2017 6:09 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
In article Dr6dnXTZotxCAhzFnZ2dnUU7-
, lcb11211@swbelldotnet
says...

On 1/19/2017 7:46 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
In article ,
says...

Being one of the expensive metals it is a major cost.
Being a heavy metal it is a major cost.
Battery cables are not thin.

So what? I haven't seen a _number_ from you,
just arm waving.

What percentage of the cost of a $20,000 car is
battery cables? What percentage of the weight
of a 2000 pound car is battery cables?

It has been a long standing practice that if a car company could save
two or three cents doing something differently that works they will
reengineer to make that happen.

That's true, but will having two different
electrical systems one on 12v and the other one
48v actually save those few cents?

Only if the wiring can be down sized, that might safe a little and a
little weight to help increase MPG. It seems they will do any thing to
rig what they have to work.

That's the bottom line. If it weren't for CAFE standards, there
would be no talk of 48V systems (or aluminum F150s).


You surely have seen the Chevy commercials comparing the aluminum Ford
bed to the steel Chevy bed.

Chevy will be building the next years modes with aluminum too. GM,
always a day late and a dollar short.

I wonder how they will advertise that!

Same way our aluminum is tougher, but I alway wonder why the guy
dumping into the Ford jerks the controls?

The problem I have with aluminum is its ability to be repaired by the
corner body shop. Any idiot can pound steel. AL is a lot more
difficult. More difficult to paint, too.

Yes but aluminum is not a foreign material, It has been used on vehicles
for decades, just not this much. Hoods are an item that are aluminum on
some vehicles and GM was using aluminum on the bumper reinforcement bars
as far back as the late 70's.

I recall our body shop manager talking about the difficulties and the
need for special welding equipment to handle the aluminum, that was in 1984.


As far as tearing up the bed, I'd be warry of dumping a load of gravel
into it.


While the Chevy commercial indicates the little tool box tearing a hole
in the Ford bed, I do not see a problem with that. And I am not sure I
believe that, the thin walled tool box did not seem to have any damage
at all, surely the corner that pierced the aluminum bed should show some
damage.

That damaged bed is not going to rust so there is no need for a bed
liner to prevent damage from turning into a rusted bed.

On 1/21/2017 9:00 AM, dpb wrote:


I know "everybody" likes to bash on something, but otoh, after the big
ice storm I got out the '58 Chebby C60 grain truck that's not had a
major repair needed in its now 59th yr of use...and while it's not been
used as much in recent years as was when new (first 20 yr or so ),
it's still in the rotation as the seed tender during planting season...


In '58 the cars were built by car men, not accountants. They had
fixable problems. My 2001 LeSabre had many expensive problems.
Replaced the tranny once. Climate control would give you heat from one
side, cooling from the other. I guess I should not complain as it was
switchable. There is a long list of other things. I gave the car away
and the new owner ditched it after a few months too.

All my GM cars were sold for next to nothing or junked. My Hyundais all
went onto the dealer's lot for sale. I'm now driving a Genesis with the
Ultra package. Better than any of my previous cars including a Mercedes.

I'd rather buy American owned and built but you get poor quality and
poor warranty.

On 1/21/2017 10:35 AM, Leon wrote:


They all will last, regardless of brand, if you continue to repair what
breaks.


True, just that some break more frequently

On 1/21/2017 10:13 AM, wrote:
On Sat, 21 Jan 2017 09:35:16 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 1/21/2017 8:29 AM, G. Ross wrote:
dpb wrote:
On 01/20/2017 11:06 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 1/20/2017 10:23 PM, Leon wrote:


Either way I was a GM man for years until I had to take the brunt of
the
problems, Service Sales manager for a GM dealership, I went Japanese as
soon as I could. Still drivin an 07 Tundra.

I drove GM cars for years as did my father and brother. Every one had to
go back to the dealer for adjustments. The last one was falling apart in
five years. I switched to Korean cars 10 years ago. After nearly 60k
miles one had to go back for a minor repair under warranty.

I know "everybody" likes to bash on something, but otoh, after the big
ice storm I got out the '58 Chebby C60 grain truck that's not had a
major repair needed in its now 59th yr of use...and while it's not been
used as much in recent years as was when new (first 20 yr or so ),
it's still in the rotation as the seed tender during planting season...

Last spring a roofer was re-roofing my house. One of his crew called
and said they were having problems with one of his trucks. He said, "I
can't imagine what could be wrong--it only has 350 thousand miles on
it". It was a Chevy.


I had a friend that put 250K on a Suburban. He had to use fuel additives
to get it to pass emission inspections and it looked like Fred Sanfords
vehicle. ;~)

They all will last, regardless of brand, if you continue to repair what
breaks.

Until you can't. The rear frame, where the wprings connect, rotted
out on my '00 Ranger. There was no fix, well, that anyone would stand
behind with their insurance, anyway. Salt is really tough on
vehicles.



Frames are replaceable and costly to do so. There does come a point that
it makes sense to buy new.

On 1/21/2017 10:19 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 1/21/2017 10:35 AM, Leon wrote:


They all will last, regardless of brand, if you continue to repair what
breaks.


True, just that some break more frequently

And repeatedly.

My last GM truck a 97 Silverado, had the water pump replaced two times,
the intake manifold gasket replaced one time, the special heater hose
with a special intake manifold fitting replaced 3 times, alternator one
time, blower motor one time. And that was with less than 70K in a 10
year period.

My 07 Tundra had the brake switch replaced in the first week. I could
not take the shift lever out of park.
It had a leaking water pump that was replaced under the drive train
warranty about 5 years ago. And that is the only major things.

On 1/21/2017 10:17 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 1/21/2017 9:00 AM, dpb wrote:


I know "everybody" likes to bash on something, but otoh, after the big
ice storm I got out the '58 Chebby C60 grain truck that's not had a
major repair needed in its now 59th yr of use...and while it's not been
used as much in recent years as was when new (first 20 yr or so ),
it's still in the rotation as the seed tender during planting season...


In '58 the cars were built by car men, not accountants. They had
fixable problems. My 2001 LeSabre had many expensive problems. Replaced
the tranny once. Climate control would give you heat from one side,
cooling from the other. I guess I should not complain as it was
switchable. There is a long list of other things. I gave the car away
and the new owner ditched it after a few months too.

All my GM cars were sold for next to nothing or junked. My Hyundais all
went onto the dealer's lot for sale. I'm now driving a Genesis with the
Ultra package. Better than any of my previous cars including a Mercedes.

I'd rather buy American owned and built but you get poor quality and
poor warranty.


For a while I was not sure American built would be dependable but our
2012 Camrey and my 08 Tundra are American built and with the
dependability and lack of even little things going wrong has pretty much
turned me off to alternatives.

I really like the looks of the Ford trucks but I know that more repair
bills are pretty much a given. Not saying that I will not have future
problems with another Toyota but problems with Toyota's are less.

I have strongly considered Hyundai but they don't offer trucks and the
vehicles don't quite fit what we are looking for.

On Sat, 21 Jan 2017 10:16:39 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 1/21/2017 10:05 AM, wrote:
On Fri, 20 Jan 2017 23:34:29 -0600, Markem
wrote:

On Fri, 20 Jan 2017 15:15:55 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 1/20/2017 11:46 AM, wrote:
On Fri, 20 Jan 2017 08:20:01 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 1/20/2017 6:09 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
In article Dr6dnXTZotxCAhzFnZ2dnUU7-
, lcb11211@swbelldotnet
says...

On 1/19/2017 7:46 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
In article ,
says...

Being one of the expensive metals it is a major cost.
Being a heavy metal it is a major cost.
Battery cables are not thin.

So what? I haven't seen a _number_ from you,
just arm waving.

What percentage of the cost of a $20,000 car is
battery cables? What percentage of the weight
of a 2000 pound car is battery cables?

It has been a long standing practice that if a car company could save
two or three cents doing something differently that works they will
reengineer to make that happen.

That's true, but will having two different
electrical systems one on 12v and the other one
48v actually save those few cents?

Only if the wiring can be down sized, that might safe a little and a
little weight to help increase MPG. It seems they will do any thing to
rig what they have to work.

That's the bottom line. If it weren't for CAFE standards, there
would be no talk of 48V systems (or aluminum F150s).


You surely have seen the Chevy commercials comparing the aluminum Ford
bed to the steel Chevy bed.

Chevy will be building the next years modes with aluminum too. GM,
always a day late and a dollar short.

I wonder how they will advertise that!

Same way our aluminum is tougher, but I alway wonder why the guy
dumping into the Ford jerks the controls?

The problem I have with aluminum is its ability to be repaired by the
corner body shop. Any idiot can pound steel. AL is a lot more
difficult. More difficult to paint, too.

Yes but aluminum is not a foreign material, It has been used on vehicles
for decades, just not this much. Hoods are an item that are aluminum on
some vehicles and GM was using aluminum on the bumper reinforcement bars
as far back as the late 70's.

Sure, SHMBO's Mustang has an aluminum hood. You don't fix it, just
unbolt it and bolt a new one on. That's going to get expensive for a
bed, just bacuse you dumped a load of rocks in it. Minor
fender-benders will get expensive.

I recall our body shop manager talking about the difficulties and the
need for special welding equipment to handle the aluminum, that was in 1984.

....and skills.

As far as tearing up the bed, I'd be warry of dumping a load of gravel
into it.


While the Chevy commercial indicates the little tool box tearing a hole
in the Ford bed, I do not see a problem with that. And I am not sure I
believe that, the thin walled tool box did not seem to have any damage
at all, surely the corner that pierced the aluminum bed should show some
damage.

That damaged bed is not going to rust so there is no need for a bed
liner to prevent damage from turning into a rusted bed.

Perhaps. I'd put one (spray-) in anyway, unless it won't stick to the
Aluminum, of course.

On 1/21/2017 10:37 AM, wrote:
On Sat, 21 Jan 2017 10:16:39 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 1/21/2017 10:05 AM, wrote:
On Fri, 20 Jan 2017 23:34:29 -0600, Markem
wrote:

On Fri, 20 Jan 2017 15:15:55 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 1/20/2017 11:46 AM, wrote:
On Fri, 20 Jan 2017 08:20:01 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 1/20/2017 6:09 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
In article Dr6dnXTZotxCAhzFnZ2dnUU7-
, lcb11211@swbelldotnet
says...

On 1/19/2017 7:46 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
In article ,
says...

Being one of the expensive metals it is a major cost.
Being a heavy metal it is a major cost.
Battery cables are not thin.

So what? I haven't seen a _number_ from you,
just arm waving.

What percentage of the cost of a $20,000 car is
battery cables? What percentage of the weight
of a 2000 pound car is battery cables?

It has been a long standing practice that if a car company could save
two or three cents doing something differently that works they will
reengineer to make that happen.

That's true, but will having two different
electrical systems one on 12v and the other one
48v actually save those few cents?

Only if the wiring can be down sized, that might safe a little and a
little weight to help increase MPG. It seems they will do any thing to
rig what they have to work.

That's the bottom line. If it weren't for CAFE standards, there
would be no talk of 48V systems (or aluminum F150s).


You surely have seen the Chevy commercials comparing the aluminum Ford
bed to the steel Chevy bed.

Chevy will be building the next years modes with aluminum too. GM,
always a day late and a dollar short.

I wonder how they will advertise that!

Same way our aluminum is tougher, but I alway wonder why the guy
dumping into the Ford jerks the controls?

The problem I have with aluminum is its ability to be repaired by the
corner body shop. Any idiot can pound steel. AL is a lot more
difficult. More difficult to paint, too.

Yes but aluminum is not a foreign material, It has been used on vehicles
for decades, just not this much. Hoods are an item that are aluminum on
some vehicles and GM was using aluminum on the bumper reinforcement bars
as far back as the late 70's.

Sure, SHMBO's Mustang has an aluminum hood. You don't fix it, just
unbolt it and bolt a new one on. That's going to get expensive for a
bed, just bacuse you dumped a load of rocks in it. Minor
fender-benders will get expensive.

It was less expensive to replace her hood but this is not true in all
cases. All minor fender benders are expensive. Paint work is
expensive. If a rubber bumper/facia is involved you can count on $2K +

I'm not saying that aluminum is less or equally as expensive to repair,
just that it can be repaired by your corner BS.


I recall our body shop manager talking about the difficulties and the
need for special welding equipment to handle the aluminum, that was in 1984.

...and skills.

As far as tearing up the bed, I'd be warry of dumping a load of gravel
into it.


While the Chevy commercial indicates the little tool box tearing a hole
in the Ford bed, I do not see a problem with that. And I am not sure I
believe that, the thin walled tool box did not seem to have any damage
at all, surely the corner that pierced the aluminum bed should show some
damage.

That damaged bed is not going to rust so there is no need for a bed
liner to prevent damage from turning into a rusted bed.

Perhaps. I'd put one (spray-) in anyway, unless it won't stick to the
Aluminum, of course.

Spray-on bed liners stick to paint for the most part, it really does not
matter what is under the paint.

And spray on bed liners do not prevent damage other than scratches in
the paint and surface rust. A spray on bed liner offers no help with
the same type damage shown in the Chevy commercial.

I currently have a Toyota branded slip in bed liner, I thought I wanted
to get rid of it and go with a spray on again but 10 years later it is
still doing fine. ;~)

I had a spray-on on my Silverado. It looked like black wrinkle paint.
And held up well to wear. AND it stayed cool in the dead of summer, it
never go hot. BUT it seemed to evaporate... it slowly disappeared/
became thin, and not from abrasion. It simply developed thin spots
between the wrinkle high spots and the paint began to appear again.
These spots seemed be where it had the most sun exposure. BUT it did
last 10 years.

On 1/21/2017 11:05 AM, wrote:


Same way our aluminum is tougher, but I alway wonder why the guy
dumping into the Ford jerks the controls?

The problem I have with aluminum is its ability to be repaired by the
corner body shop. Any idiot can pound steel. AL is a lot more
difficult. More difficult to paint, too.

As far as tearing up the bed, I'd be warry of dumping a load of gravel
into it.


There is a learning curve. Having worked with aluminum tooling for the
past 47 years I don't see it as a problem, it is easily repaired. It
was not that long ago shops bitched about them foreign cars with metric
bolts. Local garage could not fix them.

In article P-idnSODuIBnEB7FnZ2dnUU7-
, lcb11211@swbelldotnet
says...

On 1/21/2017 10:17 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 1/21/2017 9:00 AM, dpb wrote:


I know "everybody" likes to bash on something, but otoh, after the big
ice storm I got out the '58 Chebby C60 grain truck that's not had a
major repair needed in its now 59th yr of use...and while it's not been
used as much in recent years as was when new (first 20 yr or so ),
it's still in the rotation as the seed tender during planting season...


In '58 the cars were built by car men, not accountants. They had
fixable problems. My 2001 LeSabre had many expensive problems. Replaced
the tranny once. Climate control would give you heat from one side,
cooling from the other. I guess I should not complain as it was
switchable. There is a long list of other things. I gave the car away
and the new owner ditched it after a few months too.

All my GM cars were sold for next to nothing or junked. My Hyundais all
went onto the dealer's lot for sale. I'm now driving a Genesis with the
Ultra package. Better than any of my previous cars including a Mercedes.

I'd rather buy American owned and built but you get poor quality and
poor warranty.


For a while I was not sure American built would be dependable but our
2012 Camrey and my 08 Tundra are American built and with the
dependability and lack of even little things going wrong has pretty much
turned me off to alternatives.

I really like the looks of the Ford trucks but I know that more repair
bills are pretty much a given. Not saying that I will not have future
problems with another Toyota but problems with Toyota's are less.

I have strongly considered Hyundai but they don't offer trucks and the
vehicles don't quite fit what we are looking for.

Remember that the government requires that all
cars sold in the US pass emissions for 50,000
miles with any repairs to emission systems in
that time paid by the manufacturer. Since just
about everything in the engine is emissions
related they pretty much are forced to make them
reliable over that period. If they can stay
tuned for 50,000 miles they're going to be
pretty durable.

The thing that worries me is the government-
forced trend to smaller and smaller engines with
blowers to get the necessary power.

On 1/21/2017 11:45 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
In article P-idnSODuIBnEB7FnZ2dnUU7-
, lcb11211@swbelldotnet
says...

On 1/21/2017 10:17 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 1/21/2017 9:00 AM, dpb wrote:


I know "everybody" likes to bash on something, but otoh, after the big
ice storm I got out the '58 Chebby C60 grain truck that's not had a
major repair needed in its now 59th yr of use...and while it's not been
used as much in recent years as was when new (first 20 yr or so ),
it's still in the rotation as the seed tender during planting season...


In '58 the cars were built by car men, not accountants. They had
fixable problems. My 2001 LeSabre had many expensive problems. Replaced
the tranny once. Climate control would give you heat from one side,
cooling from the other. I guess I should not complain as it was
switchable. There is a long list of other things. I gave the car away
and the new owner ditched it after a few months too.

All my GM cars were sold for next to nothing or junked. My Hyundais all
went onto the dealer's lot for sale. I'm now driving a Genesis with the
Ultra package. Better than any of my previous cars including a Mercedes.

I'd rather buy American owned and built but you get poor quality and
poor warranty.


For a while I was not sure American built would be dependable but our
2012 Camrey and my 08 Tundra are American built and with the
dependability and lack of even little things going wrong has pretty much
turned me off to alternatives.

I really like the looks of the Ford trucks but I know that more repair
bills are pretty much a given. Not saying that I will not have future
problems with another Toyota but problems with Toyota's are less.

I have strongly considered Hyundai but they don't offer trucks and the
vehicles don't quite fit what we are looking for.

Remember that the government requires that all
cars sold in the US pass emissions for 50,000
miles with any repairs to emission systems in
that time paid by the manufacturer. Since just
about everything in the engine is emissions
related they pretty much are forced to make them
reliable over that period. If they can stay
tuned for 50,000 miles they're going to be
pretty durable.

One would hope but cheap gas with no detergents or bad gas can fowl
plugs and clog injectors, and that is not covered after the 5 year or
50K limitation of coverage.



The thing that worries me is the government-
forced trend to smaller and smaller engines with
blowers to get the necessary power.


The government is forcing better gas mileage. The manufacturer chooses
the best way for them to achieve that. The Hybrids seem to be a popular
alternative.
We will see how the turbo and supercharged engines hold up long term.

But that said, my wife's 2012 Camry V6 gets an average of 25 MPG in town
and 32 on the highway and it has 268 HP. There is no need for more
power than that. It pulls quite strongly and quickly up to 100 MPH. I
understand that its top speed is governor limited to 130 MPH.

On 01/21/2017 9:35 AM, Leon wrote:
....

They all will last, regardless of brand, if you continue to repair what
breaks.

I guess I've just been lucky...we've had nothing but Chevy on the
farmstead since grandfather's first truck (1928) and have never had any
major engine or transmission repairs on any that I can recall since
being old enough to know most of what happened since the late-50s/early
60s. That'd include something like 20+ pick'em ups and a dozen or so
medium and heavy duty bobtails.

Personally, I've had almost exclusively GM automobiles and with only the
single exception of one '84 Olds, I've never had a _major_ repair on any
of them, either. It had a newly-released transmission that failed
early, but was warranty replacement and the subsequent went the
remaining 130K or so put on it.

Folks drove Buick exclusively from 1960 on and there also recall only
one that ever had any real issues with...one, don't recall the year but
many years ago, long before the 3.8L cross-mount FWD, would lose the
water pump after long road trips. Never failed until after returned and
it had gone back to normal just daily to/from town trips but seemed like
every time after a really long trip sequence it'd go out. Dad finally
got made and traded it; the shop mechanic bought it and replaced the
pump "one more time" and ended up driving it for years and years and
never replaced it again...

Anyways, I'm pretty much happy w/ GM...not enough trouble over 60 yr or
so to give me any pause whatsoever. Altho I don't like all the gadgetry
on them or anything new that's not vendor-specific.

On 1/21/2017 2:02 PM, dpb wrote:
On 01/21/2017 9:35 AM, Leon wrote:
...

They all will last, regardless of brand, if you continue to repair what
breaks.

I guess I've just been lucky...we've had nothing but Chevy on the
farmstead since grandfather's first truck (1928) and have never had any
major engine or transmission repairs on any that I can recall since
being old enough to know most of what happened since the late-50s/early
60s. That'd include something like 20+ pick'em ups and a dozen or so
medium and heavy duty bobtails.

Personally, I've had almost exclusively GM automobiles and with only the
single exception of one '84 Olds, I've never had a _major_ repair on any
of them, either. It had a newly-released transmission that failed
early, but was warranty replacement and the subsequent went the
remaining 130K or so put on it.

Folks drove Buick exclusively from 1960 on and there also recall only
one that ever had any real issues with...one, don't recall the year but
many years ago, long before the 3.8L cross-mount FWD, would lose the
water pump after long road trips. Never failed until after returned and
it had gone back to normal just daily to/from town trips but seemed like
every time after a really long trip sequence it'd go out. Dad finally
got made and traded it; the shop mechanic bought it and replaced the
pump "one more time" and ended up driving it for years and years and
never replaced it again...

Anyways, I'm pretty much happy w/ GM...not enough trouble over 60 yr or
so to give me any pause whatsoever. Altho I don't like all the gadgetry
on them or anything new that's not vendor-specific.



No reason to switch brands if you are happy. It delivers what you have
come to expect. And like I mentioned I was GM guy and retired after
selling and servicing GM products for 20+ years. I really got tired of
the politics of dealing with the factory and angry customers coming back
to have the same thing repaired over and over. I first switched to
Isuzu, a brand that we sold, and it was equal to GM in reliability.
Then I/we went to Acura, Honda, and finally Toyota. Higher in price but
very dependable and trouble free compared to the vehicles we have had in
the past.

On Sat, 21 Jan 2017 11:05:38 -0500, wrote:

On Fri, 20 Jan 2017 23:34:29 -0600, Markem
wrote:

On Fri, 20 Jan 2017 15:15:55 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 1/20/2017 11:46 AM, wrote:
On Fri, 20 Jan 2017 08:20:01 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 1/20/2017 6:09 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
In article Dr6dnXTZotxCAhzFnZ2dnUU7-
, lcb11211@swbelldotnet
says...

On 1/19/2017 7:46 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
In article ,
says...

Being one of the expensive metals it is a major cost.
Being a heavy metal it is a major cost.
Battery cables are not thin.

So what? I haven't seen a _number_ from you,
just arm waving.

What percentage of the cost of a $20,000 car is
battery cables? What percentage of the weight
of a 2000 pound car is battery cables?

It has been a long standing practice that if a car company could save
two or three cents doing something differently that works they will
reengineer to make that happen.

That's true, but will having two different
electrical systems one on 12v and the other one
48v actually save those few cents?

Only if the wiring can be down sized, that might safe a little and a
little weight to help increase MPG. It seems they will do any thing to
rig what they have to work.

That's the bottom line. If it weren't for CAFE standards, there
would be no talk of 48V systems (or aluminum F150s).


You surely have seen the Chevy commercials comparing the aluminum Ford
bed to the steel Chevy bed.

Chevy will be building the next years modes with aluminum too. GM,
always a day late and a dollar short.

I wonder how they will advertise that!

Same way our aluminum is tougher, but I alway wonder why the guy
dumping into the Ford jerks the controls?

The problem I have with aluminum is its ability to be repaired by the
corner body shop. Any idiot can pound steel. AL is a lot more
difficult. More difficult to paint, too.

As far as tearing up the bed, I'd be warry of dumping a load of gravel
into it.

Audi has been putting out aluminum cars for awhile, so the body shops
to fix an aluminum car or truck are around. As far as protecting the
bed, a nice piece of vinyl should do.

On 1/21/2017 2:57 PM, Markem wrote:
Snip


The problem I have with aluminum is its ability to be repaired by the
corner body shop. Any idiot can pound steel. AL is a lot more
difficult. More difficult to paint, too.

As far as tearing up the bed, I'd be warry of dumping a load of gravel
into it.

Audi has been putting out aluminum cars for awhile, so the body shops
to fix an aluminum car or truck are around. As far as protecting the
bed, a nice piece of vinyl should do.


I did not realize Audi was using the much aluminum but thinking back,
probably VW too. Wa had a 2000 Passat and it got a ding in the parking
lot on the passengers finder just over the wheel opening. I did not
notice the bent sheet metal until I heard the tire rubbing wite the
slightest bump. I stopped on the side of the road and easily pulled it
back with one hand on my first pull. Probably an Aluminum fender.

On Sat, 21 Jan 2017 17:16:33 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 1/21/2017 2:57 PM, Markem wrote:
Snip


The problem I have with aluminum is its ability to be repaired by the
corner body shop. Any idiot can pound steel. AL is a lot more
difficult. More difficult to paint, too.

As far as tearing up the bed, I'd be warry of dumping a load of gravel
into it.

Audi has been putting out aluminum cars for awhile, so the body shops
to fix an aluminum car or truck are around. As far as protecting the
bed, a nice piece of vinyl should do.


I did not realize Audi was using the much aluminum but thinking back,
probably VW too. Wa had a 2000 Passat and it got a ding in the parking
lot on the passengers finder just over the wheel opening. I did not
notice the bent sheet metal until I heard the tire rubbing wite the
slightest bump. I stopped on the side of the road and easily pulled it
back with one hand on my first pull. Probably an Aluminum fender.

Nascar fix, did you lose a lap?

On Sat, 21 Jan 2017 10:56:21 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 1/21/2017 10:37 AM, wrote:
On Sat, 21 Jan 2017 10:16:39 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 1/21/2017 10:05 AM, wrote:
On Fri, 20 Jan 2017 23:34:29 -0600, Markem
wrote:

On Fri, 20 Jan 2017 15:15:55 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 1/20/2017 11:46 AM, wrote:
On Fri, 20 Jan 2017 08:20:01 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 1/20/2017 6:09 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
In article Dr6dnXTZotxCAhzFnZ2dnUU7-
, lcb11211@swbelldotnet
says...

On 1/19/2017 7:46 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
In article ,
says...

Being one of the expensive metals it is a major cost.
Being a heavy metal it is a major cost.
Battery cables are not thin.

So what? I haven't seen a _number_ from you,
just arm waving.

What percentage of the cost of a $20,000 car is
battery cables? What percentage of the weight
of a 2000 pound car is battery cables?

It has been a long standing practice that if a car company could save
two or three cents doing something differently that works they will
reengineer to make that happen.

That's true, but will having two different
electrical systems one on 12v and the other one
48v actually save those few cents?

Only if the wiring can be down sized, that might safe a little and a
little weight to help increase MPG. It seems they will do any thing to
rig what they have to work.

That's the bottom line. If it weren't for CAFE standards, there
would be no talk of 48V systems (or aluminum F150s).


You surely have seen the Chevy commercials comparing the aluminum Ford
bed to the steel Chevy bed.

Chevy will be building the next years modes with aluminum too. GM,
always a day late and a dollar short.

I wonder how they will advertise that!

Same way our aluminum is tougher, but I alway wonder why the guy
dumping into the Ford jerks the controls?

The problem I have with aluminum is its ability to be repaired by the
corner body shop. Any idiot can pound steel. AL is a lot more
difficult. More difficult to paint, too.

Yes but aluminum is not a foreign material, It has been used on vehicles
for decades, just not this much. Hoods are an item that are aluminum on
some vehicles and GM was using aluminum on the bumper reinforcement bars
as far back as the late 70's.

Sure, SHMBO's Mustang has an aluminum hood. You don't fix it, just
unbolt it and bolt a new one on. That's going to get expensive for a
bed, just bacuse you dumped a load of rocks in it. Minor
fender-benders will get expensive.

It was less expensive to replace her hood but this is not true in all
cases. All minor fender benders are expensive. Paint work is
expensive. If a rubber bumper/facia is involved you can count on $2K +

But fender benders are far more likely to bend fenders than hoods. If
you've bent a hood, you're probably in the $10K territory.

I'm not saying that aluminum is less or equally as expensive to repair,
just that it can be repaired by your corner BS.

By replacing parts.

I recall our body shop manager talking about the difficulties and the
need for special welding equipment to handle the aluminum, that was in 1984.

...and skills.

As far as tearing up the bed, I'd be warry of dumping a load of gravel
into it.


While the Chevy commercial indicates the little tool box tearing a hole
in the Ford bed, I do not see a problem with that. And I am not sure I
believe that, the thin walled tool box did not seem to have any damage
at all, surely the corner that pierced the aluminum bed should show some
damage.

That damaged bed is not going to rust so there is no need for a bed
liner to prevent damage from turning into a rusted bed.

Perhaps. I'd put one (spray-) in anyway, unless it won't stick to the
Aluminum, of course.

Spray-on bed liners stick to paint for the most part, it really does not
matter what is under the paint.

And spray on bed liners do not prevent damage other than scratches in
the paint and surface rust. A spray on bed liner offers no help with
the same type damage shown in the Chevy commercial.

They also keep stuff from sliding around, saving the surface.

I currently have a Toyota branded slip in bed liner, I thought I wanted
to get rid of it and go with a spray on again but 10 years later it is
still doing fine. ;~)

I had a spray-on on my Silverado. It looked like black wrinkle paint.
And held up well to wear. AND it stayed cool in the dead of summer, it
never go hot. BUT it seemed to evaporate... it slowly disappeared/
became thin, and not from abrasion. It simply developed thin spots
between the wrinkle high spots and the paint began to appear again.
These spots seemed be where it had the most sun exposure. BUT it did
last 10 years.

Didn't have that problem on my '00 Ranger. The liner looked brand new
when I got id of it (in '13). Did it again on my '13 150. I put a
tonneau cover on it last summer (out of sight out of mind), so the
liner isn't exposed to the elements anymore.

On 1/21/2017 8:19 PM, J. Clarke wrote:

Well those engines, normally aspirated iron block, are disappearing fast
and I have not seen any 3 cylinder 45 cid engines that you are talking
about.

Ford ecoboost. I exaggerate a bit but they're
getting 123 HP out of a 60 cubic inch turbo 3 in
the Focus.


My last Sonata was a 2.0 turbo. Shocked a Camero driver that I stayed
right beside him no matter how hard he pushed the pedal. I have no idea
how well it would be at 150,000 or more miles though compared to a big
V-8.

On 1/21/2017 6:25 PM, Markem wrote:
On Sat, 21 Jan 2017 17:16:33 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 1/21/2017 2:57 PM, Markem wrote:
Snip


The problem I have with aluminum is its ability to be repaired by the
corner body shop. Any idiot can pound steel. AL is a lot more
difficult. More difficult to paint, too.

As far as tearing up the bed, I'd be warry of dumping a load of gravel
into it.

Audi has been putting out aluminum cars for awhile, so the body shops
to fix an aluminum car or truck are around. As far as protecting the
bed, a nice piece of vinyl should do.


I did not realize Audi was using the much aluminum but thinking back,
probably VW too. Wa had a 2000 Passat and it got a ding in the parking
lot on the passengers finder just over the wheel opening. I did not
notice the bent sheet metal until I heard the tire rubbing wite the
slightest bump. I stopped on the side of the road and easily pulled it
back with one hand on my first pull. Probably an Aluminum fender.

Nascar fix, did you lose a lap?


Did not even get winded! LOL

On 1/21/2017 7:19 PM, J. Clarke wrote:

I simply indicated that vehicles do have problems past the emission
warranty. You stated that if they make it past that point they are
probably good to go.

That is not what I stated. What I stated was
that if the engine was good enough to make it to
that point without having a wrench turned on it
it has to be a pretty decent design.

As the ****ing contest goes on,,,

this is exactly what you said,

Since just
about everything in the engine is emissions
related they pretty much are forced to make them
reliable over that period. If they can stay
tuned for 50,000 miles they're going to be
pretty durable.


Now I am going to say in a slightly different way,
Fowled plugs and or clogged injectors do not result in a tuned engine.
This can happen at any point in an engines life.

Perhaps we are saying the same but in a different way.







I don't want a powerful fast car, I want a car
that isn't going to give me trouble for 20
years. I know from long experience that
normally aspirated iron block engines will do
that. I have no evidence that turbocharged
aluminum block engins of 1/10 the displacement
but producing the same power will last nearly as
long.

Well those engines, normally aspirated iron block, are disappearing fast
and I have not seen any 3 cylinder 45 cid engines that you are talking
about.

Ford ecoboost. I exaggerate a bit but they're
getting 123 HP out of a 60 cubic inch turbo 3 in
the Focus.

Yes you did exaggerate a bit and that is the problem with some of your
comments.
I'll take your word that your numbers about size and power are correct
on the Ecoboost.

But consider that a 2.3 liter aluminum block Chevy engine, in 1972
produced 93 HP And failed miserably.
Today triple that HP out of an aluminum block engine only 50% larger,
3.5 liter, and get 20% better gas mileage in town and on the highway.

Most Toyotas are driven 150K miles before being traded for the first
time. that is 3~4 longer than most of those 2.3 liter engines Chevrolet
produced in the early 70's.
The Japanese have been turbo charging aluminum block engines for decades.

And FWIW the vast majority of pistons are aluminum, even in cast iron
block engines.

Technology in metallurgy has come a very long way.

In article ,
says...

On 1/21/2017 8:19 PM, J. Clarke wrote:

Well those engines, normally aspirated iron block, are disappearing fast
and I have not seen any 3 cylinder 45 cid engines that you are talking
about.

Ford ecoboost. I exaggerate a bit but they're
getting 123 HP out of a 60 cubic inch turbo 3 in
the Focus.


My last Sonata was a 2.0 turbo. Shocked a Camero driver that I stayed
right beside him no matter how hard he pushed the pedal. I have no idea
how well it would be at 150,000 or more miles though compared to a big
V-8.

Most pony cars aren't very fast. Standard
engine in a Camaro is a 275 HP 2 liter turbo 4.
"Big" engine is a 455 HP 6.2 V8. But there's
also a separate "ZL1" model which has the 6.2
with a blower for 650 HP. That one costs more
than an entry-level Corvette though.

On 1/21/2017 6:42 PM, wrote:
Snip


The problem I have with aluminum is its ability to be repaired by the
corner body shop. Any idiot can pound steel. AL is a lot more
difficult. More difficult to paint, too.

Yes but aluminum is not a foreign material, It has been used on vehicles
for decades, just not this much. Hoods are an item that are aluminum on
some vehicles and GM was using aluminum on the bumper reinforcement bars
as far back as the late 70's.

Sure, SHMBO's Mustang has an aluminum hood. You don't fix it, just
unbolt it and bolt a new one on. That's going to get expensive for a
bed, just bacuse you dumped a load of rocks in it. Minor
fender-benders will get expensive.

It was less expensive to replace her hood but this is not true in all
cases. All minor fender benders are expensive. Paint work is
expensive. If a rubber bumper/facia is involved you can count on $2K +

But fender benders are far more likely to bend fenders than hoods. If
you've bent a hood, you're probably in the $10K territory.

Hoods get damaged for a number of reasons and not always from a
collision. Some one sits on the hood and dents it or the hinges do not
bend properly and the hood bends at the hinge, more of a problem when
hoods did not have prop rods or pneumatic pistons.

Hoods often get replaced because the labor to repair outweighs the labor
and cost of the part replace, aluminum or steel, but not always, a stray
golf ball ding, probably cheaper to repair. Any bolt on panel is going
to be less expensive, labor wise, than one that an integral part of the
body. If a quarter panel is damaged, steel or aluminum, it is going to
be less expensive to repair with the assumption that the damage is less
expensive to repair than to replace a quarter panel, which is quite
expensive labor wise and seldom done.




I'm not saying that aluminum is less or equally as expensive to repair,
just that it can be repaired by your corner BS.

By replacing parts.

Sometimes. Ask your local body shop how often they replace a dented
quarter panel over repairing it. Quarter panels have to be cut away
from floor pans, roof panels, and door jams. Then the new panel is
fitted to the opening and welded in place. Less honorable body shops
will charge you for all of this but not replace the sail panel, the
upper section of the panel that connects to the roof panel, to save time
and effort.




I recall our body shop manager talking about the difficulties and the
need for special welding equipment to handle the aluminum, that was in 1984.

...and skills.

As far as tearing up the bed, I'd be warry of dumping a load of gravel
into it.


While the Chevy commercial indicates the little tool box tearing a hole
in the Ford bed, I do not see a problem with that. And I am not sure I
believe that, the thin walled tool box did not seem to have any damage
at all, surely the corner that pierced the aluminum bed should show some
damage.

That damaged bed is not going to rust so there is no need for a bed
liner to prevent damage from turning into a rusted bed.

Perhaps. I'd put one (spray-) in anyway, unless it won't stick to the
Aluminum, of course.

Spray-on bed liners stick to paint for the most part, it really does not
matter what is under the paint.

And spray on bed liners do not prevent damage other than scratches in
the paint and surface rust. A spray on bed liner offers no help with
the same type damage shown in the Chevy commercial.

They also keep stuff from sliding around, saving the surface.

Well yeah, their primary function. ;~)




I currently have a Toyota branded slip in bed liner, I thought I wanted
to get rid of it and go with a spray on again but 10 years later it is
still doing fine. ;~)

I had a spray-on on my Silverado. It looked like black wrinkle paint.
And held up well to wear. AND it stayed cool in the dead of summer, it
never go hot. BUT it seemed to evaporate... it slowly disappeared/
became thin, and not from abrasion. It simply developed thin spots
between the wrinkle high spots and the paint began to appear again.
These spots seemed be where it had the most sun exposure. BUT it did
last 10 years.

Didn't have that problem on my '00 Ranger. The liner looked brand new
when I got id of it (in '13). Did it again on my '13 150. I put a
tonneau cover on it last summer (out of sight out of mind), so the
liner isn't exposed to the elements anymore.

I am absolutely certain that different spray on liners have different
expected life spans, including how think it goes on.
Mine still worked like new, but after about 8 years you could just see
the green paint in some of the low spots after 10 years in the sun.

Had it been twice as thick it may have not exposed the paint so soon.

On Sat, 21 Jan 2017 21:32:58 -0500, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

In article ,
says...

On 1/21/2017 8:19 PM, J. Clarke wrote:

Well those engines, normally aspirated iron block, are disappearing fast
and I have not seen any 3 cylinder 45 cid engines that you are talking
about.

Ford ecoboost. I exaggerate a bit but they're
getting 123 HP out of a 60 cubic inch turbo 3 in
the Focus.


My last Sonata was a 2.0 turbo. Shocked a Camero driver that I stayed
right beside him no matter how hard he pushed the pedal. I have no idea
how well it would be at 150,000 or more miles though compared to a big
V-8.

Most pony cars aren't very fast. Standard
engine in a Camaro is a 275 HP 2 liter turbo 4.
"Big" engine is a 455 HP 6.2 V8. But there's
also a separate "ZL1" model which has the 6.2
with a blower for 650 HP. That one costs more
than an entry-level Corvette though.

The standard engine for a Mustang is a 6cyl 227CID 300HP. It isn't
particularly fast but it's not a slug, either. The car is pretty
heavy, though (partularly the convertible).

The other options are an "EcoBoost" 4-cylinder 75CID 310HP, and a
302CID 425HP, and 315CID 526HP, eight. They should move.

On Sat, 21 Jan 2017 20:40:46 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 1/21/2017 6:42 PM, wrote:
Snip


The problem I have with aluminum is its ability to be repaired by the
corner body shop. Any idiot can pound steel. AL is a lot more
difficult. More difficult to paint, too.

Yes but aluminum is not a foreign material, It has been used on vehicles
for decades, just not this much. Hoods are an item that are aluminum on
some vehicles and GM was using aluminum on the bumper reinforcement bars
as far back as the late 70's.

Sure, SHMBO's Mustang has an aluminum hood. You don't fix it, just
unbolt it and bolt a new one on. That's going to get expensive for a
bed, just bacuse you dumped a load of rocks in it. Minor
fender-benders will get expensive.

It was less expensive to replace her hood but this is not true in all
cases. All minor fender benders are expensive. Paint work is
expensive. If a rubber bumper/facia is involved you can count on $2K +

But fender benders are far more likely to bend fenders than hoods. If
you've bent a hood, you're probably in the $10K territory.

Hoods get damaged for a number of reasons and not always from a
collision. Some one sits on the hood and dents it or the hinges do not
bend properly and the hood bends at the hinge, more of a problem when
hoods did not have prop rods or pneumatic pistons.

Aluminum makes a great butt rest, I'm sure.

Hoods often get replaced because the labor to repair outweighs the labor
and cost of the part replace, aluminum or steel, but not always, a stray
golf ball ding, probably cheaper to repair. Any bolt on panel is going
to be less expensive, labor wise, than one that an integral part of the
body. If a quarter panel is damaged, steel or aluminum, it is going to
be less expensive to repair with the assumption that the damage is less
expensive to repair than to replace a quarter panel, which is quite
expensive labor wise and seldom done.

A steel panel will be much less susceptible to parking lot dings and
way easier to pop out.



I'm not saying that aluminum is less or equally as expensive to repair,
just that it can be repaired by your corner BS.

By replacing parts.

Sometimes. Ask your local body shop how often they replace a dented
quarter panel over repairing it. Quarter panels have to be cut away
from floor pans, roof panels, and door jams. Then the new panel is
fitted to the opening and welded in place. Less honorable body shops
will charge you for all of this but not replace the sail panel, the
upper section of the panel that connects to the roof panel, to save time
and effort.




I recall our body shop manager talking about the difficulties and the
need for special welding equipment to handle the aluminum, that was in 1984.

...and skills.

As far as tearing up the bed, I'd be warry of dumping a load of gravel
into it.


While the Chevy commercial indicates the little tool box tearing a hole
in the Ford bed, I do not see a problem with that. And I am not sure I
believe that, the thin walled tool box did not seem to have any damage
at all, surely the corner that pierced the aluminum bed should show some
damage.

That damaged bed is not going to rust so there is no need for a bed
liner to prevent damage from turning into a rusted bed.

Perhaps. I'd put one (spray-) in anyway, unless it won't stick to the
Aluminum, of course.

Spray-on bed liners stick to paint for the most part, it really does not
matter what is under the paint.

And spray on bed liners do not prevent damage other than scratches in
the paint and surface rust. A spray on bed liner offers no help with
the same type damage shown in the Chevy commercial.

They also keep stuff from sliding around, saving the surface.

Well yeah, their primary function. ;~)




I currently have a Toyota branded slip in bed liner, I thought I wanted
to get rid of it and go with a spray on again but 10 years later it is
still doing fine. ;~)

I had a spray-on on my Silverado. It looked like black wrinkle paint.
And held up well to wear. AND it stayed cool in the dead of summer, it
never go hot. BUT it seemed to evaporate... it slowly disappeared/
became thin, and not from abrasion. It simply developed thin spots
between the wrinkle high spots and the paint began to appear again.
These spots seemed be where it had the most sun exposure. BUT it did
last 10 years.

Didn't have that problem on my '00 Ranger. The liner looked brand new
when I got id of it (in '13). Did it again on my '13 150. I put a
tonneau cover on it last summer (out of sight out of mind), so the
liner isn't exposed to the elements anymore.

I am absolutely certain that different spray on liners have different
expected life spans, including how think it goes on.
Mine still worked like new, but after about 8 years you could just see
the green paint in some of the low spots after 10 years in the sun.

Had it been twice as thick it may have not exposed the paint so soon.

On 1/21/2017 7:54 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 1/21/2017 8:19 PM, J. Clarke wrote:

Well those engines, normally aspirated iron block, are disappearing fast
and I have not seen any 3 cylinder 45 cid engines that you are talking
about.

Ford ecoboost. I exaggerate a bit but they're
getting 123 HP out of a 60 cubic inch turbo 3 in
the Focus.


My last Sonata was a 2.0 turbo. Shocked a Camero driver that I stayed
right beside him no matter how hard he pushed the pedal. I have no idea
how well it would be at 150,000 or more miles though compared to a big V-8.


The vast majority of big v8's make it to 150K with out some repair. You
hear of some that do but the ones you dont't hear about typically don't.
;~)

When working for Oldsmobile we had a new Cutlass, rear wheel drive, come
into the shop. The complaint was oil consumption. So we topped off the
oil and checked a week later. I do not recall the level but we
immediately put the vehicle in the shop and began tearing down the
engine. This was the old Buick design 3.8 V6.

Long story short, and we got the factory rep into the shop ASAP part way
through removing the pistons, the engine was assembled with no oil rings
on the pistons.

Regardless of how strong you feel that a metal is, if it is not
engineered and built correctly it is not going to run long enough to
make you proud. ;~)

On 1/21/2017 8:45 PM, wrote:


My last Sonata was a 2.0 turbo. Shocked a Camero driver that I stayed
right beside him no matter how hard he pushed the pedal. I have no idea
how well it would be at 150,000 or more miles though compared to a big
V-8.

Most pony cars aren't very fast. Standard
engine in a Camaro is a 275 HP 2 liter turbo 4.
"Big" engine is a 455 HP 6.2 V8. But there's
also a separate "ZL1" model which has the 6.2
with a blower for 650 HP. That one costs more
than an entry-level Corvette though.

The standard engine for a Mustang is a 6cyl 227CID 300HP. It isn't
particularly fast but it's not a slug, either. The car is pretty
heavy, though (partularly the convertible).

The other options are an "EcoBoost" 4-cylinder 75CID 310HP, and a
302CID 425HP, and 315CID 526HP, eight. They should move.


Here is one for you, I kinda got into an acceleration contest on the
freeway with my son. I was driving my wife's 2012 V6 Camrey, and she
was in the car. It went from about 45 mph getting on the freeway to
about 90.
He could not keep up. 84 Corvette 350, in pristine condition for a 30
year old vehicle.

Top speed would have been another matter. He does not like to be
reminded. LOL

On 1/21/2017 8:50 PM, Leon wrote:


The vast majority of big v8's make it to 150K with out some repair. You
hear of some that do but the ones you dont't hear about typically don't.
;~)


should have said do not make it to 150K with out some repair.

On 2017-01-21 9:45 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 21 Jan 2017 21:32:58 -0500, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

In article ,
says...

On 1/21/2017 8:19 PM, J. Clarke wrote:

Well those engines, normally aspirated iron block, are disappearing fast
and I have not seen any 3 cylinder 45 cid engines that you are talking
about.

Ford ecoboost. I exaggerate a bit but they're
getting 123 HP out of a 60 cubic inch turbo 3 in
the Focus.


My last Sonata was a 2.0 turbo. Shocked a Camero driver that I stayed
right beside him no matter how hard he pushed the pedal. I have no idea
how well it would be at 150,000 or more miles though compared to a big
V-8.

Most pony cars aren't very fast. Standard
engine in a Camaro is a 275 HP 2 liter turbo 4.
"Big" engine is a 455 HP 6.2 V8. But there's
also a separate "ZL1" model which has the 6.2
with a blower for 650 HP. That one costs more
than an entry-level Corvette though.

The standard engine for a Mustang is a 6cyl 227CID 300HP. It isn't
particularly fast but it's not a slug, either. The car is pretty
heavy, though (partularly the convertible).

The other options are an "EcoBoost" 4-cylinder 75CID 310HP, and a
302CID 425HP, and 315CID 526HP, eight. They should move.

The 6 is being discontinued, just 4 and 8 cylinder variants for next year.

--
Froz....

On 1/21/2017 8:49 PM, wrote:


Hoods often get replaced because the labor to repair outweighs the labor
and cost of the part replace, aluminum or steel, but not always, a stray
golf ball ding, probably cheaper to repair. Any bolt on panel is going
to be less expensive, labor wise, than one that an integral part of the
body. If a quarter panel is damaged, steel or aluminum, it is going to
be less expensive to repair with the assumption that the damage is less
expensive to repair than to replace a quarter panel, which is quite
expensive labor wise and seldom done.

A steel panel will be much less susceptible to parking lot dings and
way easier to pop out.

Perhaps. but not guaranteed. It depends where the panel is hit and
whether it stretches or not.

In article t_CdnWV2jYcRixnFnZ2dnUU7-
, lcb11211@swbelldotnet
says...

On 1/21/2017 7:19 PM, J. Clarke wrote:

I simply indicated that vehicles do have problems past the emission
warranty. You stated that if they make it past that point they are
probably good to go.

That is not what I stated. What I stated was
that if the engine was good enough to make it to
that point without having a wrench turned on it
it has to be a pretty decent design.

As the ****ing contest goes on,,,

this is exactly what you said,

Since just
about everything in the engine is emissions
related they pretty much are forced to make them
reliable over that period. If they can stay
tuned for 50,000 miles they're going to be
pretty durable.


Now I am going to say in a slightly different way,
Fowled plugs and or clogged injectors do not result in a tuned engine.
This can happen at any point in an engines life.

Perhaps we are saying the same but in a
different way.

At this point you're just being argumentative to
be argumentative, a habit that you don't seem
aware of.

I don't want a powerful fast car, I want a
car
that isn't going to give me trouble for 20
years. I know from long experience that
normally aspirated iron block engines will do
that. I have no evidence that turbocharged
aluminum block engins of 1/10 the displacement
but producing the same power will last nearly as
long.

Well those engines, normally aspirated iron block, are disappearing fast
and I have not seen any 3 cylinder 45 cid engines that you are talking
about.

Ford ecoboost. I exaggerate a bit but they're
getting 123 HP out of a 60 cubic inch turbo 3 in
the Focus.

Yes you did exaggerate a bit and that is the problem with some of your
comments.
I'll take your word that your numbers about size and power are correct
on the Ecoboost.

But consider that a 2.3 liter aluminum block Chevy engine, in 1972
produced 93 HP And failed miserably.
Today triple that HP out of an aluminum block engine only 50% larger,
3.5 liter, and get 20% better gas mileage in town and on the highway.

So? Smaller engines get better mileage--that's
physics.

How long does that engine last though?

Most Toyotas are driven 150K miles before being traded for the first
time. that is 3~4 longer than most of those 2.3 liter engines Chevrolet
produced in the early 70's.
The Japanese have been turbo charging aluminum block engines for decades.

Yeah, I had a non-turbo aluminum block Toyota
that went through three engines in 30,000 miles.
Sorry, but Toyota isn't any paragon of
durability.

However lasting longer than a Vega engine which
had an iron head on an aluminum block, a recipe
for failure, isn't anything to brag about.

And FWIW the vast majority of pistons are aluminum, even in cast iron
block engines.

So what?

Technology in metallurgy has come a very long way.

And maybe it's come a long enough way that the
tiny little high-revving turbowonders that the
government is forcing automakers to use today
will last the same 300+ thousand miles as the
ironblocks. When they've been around long
enough to accumulate 300,000 miles get back to
me.

You seem to have a childlike faith in engineers.
I am one, and I know that we are not gods, our
**** stinks, and we can't walk on water.
Physics places limits on what engineers can do.
When you make something smaller and lighter for
the same power output with the same
thermodynamic cycle, something has to give.
Either the cost goes through the roof or
durability suffers.

In article M5ednRZuFKF3ghnFnZ2dnUU7-
, lcb11211@swbelldotnet
says...

On 1/21/2017 8:45 PM, wrote:


My last Sonata was a 2.0 turbo. Shocked a Camero driver that I stayed
right beside him no matter how hard he pushed the pedal. I have no idea
how well it would be at 150,000 or more miles though compared to a big
V-8.

Most pony cars aren't very fast. Standard
engine in a Camaro is a 275 HP 2 liter turbo 4.
"Big" engine is a 455 HP 6.2 V8. But there's
also a separate "ZL1" model which has the 6.2
with a blower for 650 HP. That one costs more
than an entry-level Corvette though.

The standard engine for a Mustang is a 6cyl 227CID 300HP. It isn't
particularly fast but it's not a slug, either. The car is pretty
heavy, though (partularly the convertible).

The other options are an "EcoBoost" 4-cylinder 75CID 310HP, and a
302CID 425HP, and 315CID 526HP, eight. They should move.


Here is one for you, I kinda got into an acceleration contest on the
freeway with my son. I was driving my wife's 2012 V6 Camrey, and she
was in the car. It went from about 45 mph getting on the freeway to
about 90.
He could not keep up. 84 Corvette 350, in pristine condition for a 30
year old vehicle.

Reasonable. They weigh about the same and the
Camry has 60 more horsepower.

Top speed would have been another matter. He does not like to be
reminded. LOL

Might not. Mine topped out at about 145. I
understand that officially a 2012 V6 Camry was
good for 143.

In article M5ednRFuFKGzvRnFnZ2dnUU7-
, lcb11211@swbelldotnet
says...

On 1/21/2017 8:50 PM, Leon wrote:


The vast majority of big v8's make it to 150K with out some repair. You
hear of some that do but the ones you dont't hear about typically don't.
;~)


should have said do not make it to 150K with out some repair.

If by "repair" you mean the kind of stuff we
used to do every 3000 miles or so back in the
'60s.