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TS Circuit -- Part 2
First of all, thanks for all the comments and good advice. The breaker box is located in the garage and there is no clear, open route to the basement and on to the shop. Here's what I am going to do:
Get an electrician to upgrade me to 200 amp service. Add a dedicated 20 amp and a dedicated 15 amp circuit to the shop. I'm guessing $1200 to $1500 for this and I suppose the utility will try to hit me up for the cost of a new meter. In the meantime, I'm done ripping the maple and on to completing the new kitchen table. Larry |
TS Circuit -- Part 2
On Wednesday, January 4, 2017 at 1:31:52 PM UTC-5, Gramps' shop wrote:
First of all, thanks for all the comments and good advice. The breaker box is located in the garage and there is no clear, open route to the basement and on to the shop. Here's what I am going to do: Get an electrician to upgrade me to 200 amp service. Add a dedicated 20 amp and a dedicated 15 amp circuit to the shop. I'm guessing $1200 to $1500 for this and I suppose the utility will try to hit me up for the cost of a new meter. In the meantime, I'm done ripping the maple and on to completing the new kitchen table. Larry Sounds like a great plan. Lights on a non-power tool circuit, I assume? Now finish up that table so you'll have a nice place to sit while you write out those checks. ;-) |
TS Circuit -- Part 2
On 1/4/2017 1:31 PM, Gramps' shop wrote:
First of all, thanks for all the comments and good advice. The breaker box is located in the garage and there is no clear, open route to the basement and on to the shop. Here's what I am going to do: Get an electrician to upgrade me to 200 amp service. Add a dedicated 20 amp and a dedicated 15 amp circuit to the shop. I'm guessing $1200 to $1500 for this and I suppose the utility will try to hit me up for the cost of a new meter. In the meantime, I'm done ripping the maple and on to completing the new kitchen table. Larry If you are going to have an electrician come in and do the work, the major part of the cost will be labor. It takes no longer to fish a wire for a 20 amp circuit than it does an 15 amp circuit So you may as well put in two 20 amp circuits and be prepared for the new Joiner that your wife is getting you for your birthday, ;-) |
TS Circuit -- Part 2
On 1/4/17 12:31 PM, Gramps' shop wrote:
First of all, thanks for all the comments and good advice. The breaker box is located in the garage and there is no clear, open route to the basement and on to the shop. Here's what I am going to do: Get an electrician to upgrade me to 200 amp service. Add a dedicated 20 amp and a dedicated 15 amp circuit to the shop. I'm guessing $1200 to $1500 for this and I suppose the utility will try to hit me up for the cost of a new meter. In the meantime, I'm done ripping the maple and on to completing the new kitchen table. Larry I wouldn't cost much more to have a 40-60amp sub-panel in the shop area. That would make it super easy for you to run extra circuits/outlets in the shop whenever you wanted. If you ever decided to wire your saw for 220 or add a 220 dust collector, etc., you would have to run the wire all the way back to the garage. Either way, upgrading the house to 200amp is a good call. -- -MIKE- "Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life" --Elvin Jones (1927-2004) -- http://mikedrums.com ---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply |
TS Circuit -- Part 2
On 1/4/2017 1:03 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 1/4/17 12:31 PM, Gramps' shop wrote: First of all, thanks for all the comments and good advice. The breaker box is located in the garage and there is no clear, open route to the basement and on to the shop. Here's what I am going to do: Get an electrician to upgrade me to 200 amp service. Add a dedicated 20 amp and a dedicated 15 amp circuit to the shop. I'm guessing $1200 to $1500 for this and I suppose the utility will try to hit me up for the cost of a new meter. In the meantime, I'm done ripping the maple and on to completing the new kitchen table. Larry I wouldn't cost much more to have a 40-60amp sub-panel in the shop area. That would make it super easy for you to run extra circuits/outlets in the shop whenever you wanted. If you ever decided to wire your saw for 220 or add a 220 dust collector, etc., you would have to run the wire all the way back to the garage. Either way, upgrading the house to 200amp is a good call. Larry, Mike's suggestion is the best I've seen for your situation and current course of action. Bite the bullet and run the sub-panel to the shop vs. the two circuits you propose. When I built my shop and detached garage, we ran UF from the meter can at the house (which has a 200A panel) to the garage and installed a 100A panel there. Lights in the shop are separate circuit. Garage lights are on two separate circuits (one of which also has the door opener) and wall outlets in garage and shop are two separate circuit. Shop and garage have a total of three 220v circuits and I still have room in the panel (and easy enough access) that I can add more if needed (but don't see that happening). Going the subpanel route for shop and giving yourself a new "starting point" is simply a "no-brainer" |
TS Circuit -- Part 2
On 1/4/17 3:19 PM, Unquestionably Confused wrote:
On 1/4/2017 1:03 PM, -MIKE- wrote: On 1/4/17 12:31 PM, Gramps' shop wrote: First of all, thanks for all the comments and good advice. The breaker box is located in the garage and there is no clear, open route to the basement and on to the shop. Here's what I am going to do: Get an electrician to upgrade me to 200 amp service. Add a dedicated 20 amp and a dedicated 15 amp circuit to the shop. I'm guessing $1200 to $1500 for this and I suppose the utility will try to hit me up for the cost of a new meter. In the meantime, I'm done ripping the maple and on to completing the new kitchen table. Larry I wouldn't cost much more to have a 40-60amp sub-panel in the shop area. That would make it super easy for you to run extra circuits/outlets in the shop whenever you wanted. If you ever decided to wire your saw for 220 or add a 220 dust collector, etc., you would have to run the wire all the way back to the garage. Either way, upgrading the house to 200amp is a good call. Larry, Mike's suggestion is the best I've seen for your situation and current course of action. Bite the bullet and run the sub-panel to the shop vs. the two circuits you propose. When I built my shop and detached garage, we ran UF from the meter can at the house (which has a 200A panel) to the garage and installed a 100A panel there. Lights in the shop are separate circuit. Garage lights are on two separate circuits (one of which also has the door opener) and wall outlets in garage and shop are two separate circuit. Shop and garage have a total of three 220v circuits and I still have room in the panel (and easy enough access) that I can add more if needed (but don't see that happening). Going the subpanel route for shop and giving yourself a new "starting point" is simply a "no-brainer" The copper and labor are the two biggest expenses. Running one piece of wire through the walls, ceiling, attic, whatever, over to the shop is going to be easier than running two. Two lengths of 12gauge romex aren't going to be be much less than one length of #6 (probably what he'll need to go to sub-panel). Then the labor to install the sub-panel is probably another $100 bucks for an electrician who's already there. From there, he can run his own wiring in the shop to save money. -- -MIKE- "Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life" --Elvin Jones (1927-2004) -- http://mikedrums.com ---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply |
TS Circuit -- Part 2
On Wednesday, January 4, 2017 at 3:19:46 PM UTC-6, Unquestionably Confused wrote:
I wouldn't cost much more to have a 40-60amp sub-panel in the shop area. That would make it super easy for you to run extra circuits/outlets in Either way, upgrading the house to 200amp is a good call. Larry, Mike's suggestion is the best I've seen for your situation and current course of action. Bite the bullet and run the sub-panel to the shop vs. the two circuits you propose. Going the subpanel route for shop and giving yourself a new "starting point" is simply a "no-brainer" Agreed. My shop has a sub panel. Five breakers for 220 lines - 2 saws, air compressor, planer, bandsaw. A sub panel would facilitate any upgrades you may plan/anticipate for the future, like installing a frig to reduce your trips to the kitchen for a beer. See far right (i.e., the frig, not the sub panel... a nice addition to the shop "tools") - https://www.flickr.com/photos/438361...in/photostream Sonny |
TS Circuit -- Part 2
Gramps' shop wrote:
First of all, thanks for all the comments and good advice. The breaker box is located in the garage and there is no clear, open route to the basement and on to the shop. Here's what I am going to do: Get an electrician to upgrade me to 200 amp service. Add a dedicated 20 amp and a dedicated 15 amp circuit to the shop. I'm guessing $1200 to $1500 for this and I suppose the utility will try to hit me up for the cost of a new meter. In the meantime, I'm done ripping the maple and on to completing the new kitchen table. Larry Upgrading to 200A won't help you one bit. You are not tripping your main breaker, so it is not being over loaded. It does no good at all to deliver more current to your house than you are drawing. Go back to your original plan of putting a 20A breaker in the circuit as long as you have 12ga wire in that branch circuit. Jut don't waste your money upgrading a service entrance that does not nee upgrading. Any electrician that tells you this will fix your problem is just lying to you in order to take your money. -- -Mike- --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus |
TS Circuit -- Part 2
On 1/4/2017 3:49 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 1/4/17 3:19 PM, Unquestionably Confused wrote: On 1/4/2017 1:03 PM, -MIKE- wrote: On 1/4/17 12:31 PM, Gramps' shop wrote: First of all, thanks for all the comments and good advice. The breaker box is located in the garage and there is no clear, open route to the basement and on to the shop. Here's what I am going to do: Get an electrician to upgrade me to 200 amp service. Add a dedicated 20 amp and a dedicated 15 amp circuit to the shop. I'm guessing $1200 to $1500 for this and I suppose the utility will try to hit me up for the cost of a new meter. In the meantime, I'm done ripping the maple and on to completing the new kitchen table. [snip] Going the subpanel route for shop and giving yourself a new "starting point" is simply a "no-brainer" The copper and labor are the two biggest expenses. Running one piece of wire through the walls, ceiling, attic, whatever, over to the shop is going to be easier than running two. Two lengths of 12gauge romex aren't going to be be much less than one length of #6 (probably what he'll need to go to sub-panel). Then the labor to install the sub-panel is probably another $100 bucks for an electrician who's already there. From there, he can run his own wiring in the shop to save money. GMTA! Unless Larry is clairvoyant, there's no telling what he may wish to include in the shop at some future date. Given that the cost of installing a sub-panel is likely within spitting distance of simply ensuring that he has an adequate electric supply to the shop for NOW he definitely should "Go big or go home!" ;) Any changes necessary down the road will be child's play for the average handyman who can read and understand the relevant portions of NEC. |
TS Circuit -- Part 2
On 1/4/17 4:51 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Gramps' shop wrote: First of all, thanks for all the comments and good advice. The breaker box is located in the garage and there is no clear, open route to the basement and on to the shop. Here's what I am going to do: Get an electrician to upgrade me to 200 amp service. Add a dedicated 20 amp and a dedicated 15 amp circuit to the shop. I'm guessing $1200 to $1500 for this and I suppose the utility will try to hit me up for the cost of a new meter. In the meantime, I'm done ripping the maple and on to completing the new kitchen table. Larry Upgrading to 200A won't help you one bit. You are not tripping your main breaker, so it is not being over loaded. It does no good at all to deliver more current to your house than you are drawing. I think in his original post he said he was out of space for breakers. Sure, you can use double breakers, but I still haven't met an electrician who likes those things. :-) Go back to your original plan of putting a 20A breaker in the circuit as long as you have 12ga wire in that branch circuit. Jut don't waste your money upgrading a service entrance that does not nee upgrading. Any electrician that tells you this will fix your problem is just lying to you in order to take your money. I think it's a good idea for a few reasons. Start adding tools to the shop that have the potential of all running at once and you can overload a 100amp service quickly. The shop could have a table saw, dust collector, air compressor, lights, chargers, window air conditioner, mini-fridge, lights, shop-vac, all running at the same time, while in the house at the same time, you can have the whole-house AC running, a turkey in the oven on 400°, 3 pots on the stove, microwave on, washer and dryer both running, water heater heating water, someone using a hair dryer and curling iron, bunch of lights and TVs on and more. I just described a typical Saturday afternoon in many homes. All these things going at the same time is not uncommon and could easily exceed 100amp service. Upgrading to 200amps is a good idea for most any home, for the reasons stated above and more. The average family uses a lot more electricity than they used to. One of the first things you'll see listed on a home inspection when buying/selling a home is if the electric service is only 100amp. If he ever intends on selling the house, the upgrade isn't wasted money. -- -MIKE- "Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life" --Elvin Jones (1927-2004) -- http://mikedrums.com ---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply |
TS Circuit -- Part 2
On 1/4/2017 4:49 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 1/4/17 3:19 PM, Unquestionably Confused wrote: On 1/4/2017 1:03 PM, -MIKE- wrote: On 1/4/17 12:31 PM, Gramps' shop wrote: First of all, thanks for all the comments and good advice. The breaker box is located in the garage and there is no clear, open route to the basement and on to the shop. Here's what I am going to do: Get an electrician to upgrade me to 200 amp service. Add a dedicated 20 amp and a dedicated 15 amp circuit to the shop. I'm guessing $1200 to $1500 for this and I suppose the utility will try to hit me up for the cost of a new meter. In the meantime, I'm done ripping the maple and on to completing the new kitchen table. Larry I wouldn't cost much more to have a 40-60amp sub-panel in the shop area. That would make it super easy for you to run extra circuits/outlets in the shop whenever you wanted. If you ever decided to wire your saw for 220 or add a 220 dust collector, etc., you would have to run the wire all the way back to the garage. Either way, upgrading the house to 200amp is a good call. Larry, Mike's suggestion is the best I've seen for your situation and current course of action. Bite the bullet and run the sub-panel to the shop vs. the two circuits you propose. When I built my shop and detached garage, we ran UF from the meter can at the house (which has a 200A panel) to the garage and installed a 100A panel there. Lights in the shop are separate circuit. Garage lights are on two separate circuits (one of which also has the door opener) and wall outlets in garage and shop are two separate circuit. Shop and garage have a total of three 220v circuits and I still have room in the panel (and easy enough access) that I can add more if needed (but don't see that happening). Going the subpanel route for shop and giving yourself a new "starting point" is simply a "no-brainer" The copper and labor are the two biggest expenses. Running one piece of wire through the walls, ceiling, attic, whatever, over to the shop is going to be easier than running two. Two lengths of 12gauge romex aren't going to be be much less than one length of #6 (probably what he'll need to go to sub-panel). Then the labor to install the sub-panel is probably another $100 bucks for an electrician who's already there. From there, he can run his own wiring in the shop to save money. What ever he does he must make sure that the installation meets the current building code for the community where the building is located. As I found out a couple of years ago, even the installation of a simple circuit may require a building permit. While a building permit if required is a pain in the you know where, it can save you a tremendous amount of hassle if you sell your home or if there is a insurance claim in that area where the work occurred. |
TS Circuit -- Part 2
"-MIKE-" wrote in message
... On 1/4/17 4:51 PM, Mike Marlow wrote: Gramps' shop wrote: First of all, thanks for all the comments and good advice. The breaker box is located in the garage and there is no clear, open route to the basement and on to the shop. Here's what I am going to do: Get an electrician to upgrade me to 200 amp service. Add a dedicated 20 amp and a dedicated 15 amp circuit to the shop. I'm guessing $1200 to $1500 for this and I suppose the utility will try to hit me up for the cost of a new meter. In the meantime, I'm done ripping the maple and on to completing the new kitchen table. Larry Upgrading to 200A won't help you one bit. You are not tripping your main breaker, so it is not being over loaded. It does no good at all to deliver more current to your house than you are drawing. I think in his original post he said he was out of space for breakers. Sure, you can use double breakers, but I still haven't met an electrician who likes those things. :-) Go back to your original plan of putting a 20A breaker in the circuit as long as you have 12ga wire in that branch circuit. Jut don't waste your money upgrading a service entrance that does not nee upgrading. Any electrician that tells you this will fix your problem is just lying to you in order to take your money. I think it's a good idea for a few reasons. Start adding tools to the shop that have the potential of all running at once and you can overload a 100amp service quickly. The shop could have a table saw, dust collector, air compressor, lights, chargers, window air conditioner, mini-fridge, lights, shop-vac, all running at the same time, while in the house at the same time, you can have the whole-house AC running, a turkey in the oven on 400°, 3 pots on the stove, microwave on, washer and dryer both running, water heater heating water, someone using a hair dryer and curling iron, bunch of lights and TVs on and more. I just described a typical Saturday afternoon in many homes. All these things going at the same time is not uncommon and could easily exceed 100amp service. Mike, we are completely on the same page on that one. |
TS Circuit -- Part 2
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gramps' shop" Newsgroups: rec.woodworking Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2017 11:31 AM Subject: TS Circuit -- Part 2 First of all, thanks for all the comments and good advice. The breaker box is located in the garage and there is no clear, open route to the basement and on to the shop. Here's what I am going to do: Get an electrician to upgrade me to 200 amp service. Good call if you don't know how to do that yourself, or your local building department won't let you. Add a dedicated 20 amp and a dedicated 15 amp circuit to the shop. NO! NO! NO! Run a 100 amp circuit to the basement and install a 100 amp sub panel. Something capable of atleast 6 circuits. If you use Square D then you have the capability to use compact breakers and double the number of circuits if you need to later. Regardless, putting a sub panel in your basement allows you to add stuff much easier in the future. The total cost will probably only be a few hundred dollars more, but the future flexibility will be an order of magnitude more. I'm guessing $1200 to $1500 for this and I suppose the utility will try to hit me up for the cost of a new meter. Get a quote so you aren't guessing. |
TS Circuit -- Part 2
On 1/4/2017 6:29 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
Upgrading to 200A won't help you one bit. You are not tripping your main breaker, so it is not being over loaded. It does no good at all to deliver more current to your house than you are drawing. Jut don't waste your money upgrading a service entrance that does not nee upgrading. Any electrician that tells you this will fix your problem is just lying to you in order to take your money. I think it's a good idea for a few reasons. Start adding tools to the shop that have the potential of all running at once and you can overload a 100amp service quickly. The shop could have a table saw, dust collector, air compressor, lights, chargers, window air conditioner, mini-fridge, lights, shop-vac, all running at the same time, while in the house at the same time, you can have the whole-house AC running, a turkey in the oven on 400°, 3 pots on the stove, microwave on, washer and dryer both running, water heater heating water, someone using a hair dryer and curling iron, bunch of lights and TVs on and more. I just described a typical Saturday afternoon in many homes. All these things going at the same time is not uncommon and could easily exceed 100amp service. Upgrading to 200amps is a good idea for most any home, for the reasons stated above and more. The average family uses a lot more electricity than they used to. One of the first things you'll see listed on a home inspection when buying/selling a home is if the electric service is only 100amp. If he ever intends on selling the house, the upgrade isn't wasted money. You really have to assess the particular needs. For me, 200A would be waste. I don't have central AC, I don't have an electric range. I never run more than one power tool at a time. I don't think I've ever pulled more than 50A at a given time. Am I using more electricity than ever? I have more items, but my newer refrigerators use half the power than the old ones. My flat screen TV uses about a quarter of the old one. Typical use for a month at my house is 750 KW, peak in summer about 830Kw. How about you? |
TS Circuit -- Part 2
On 1/4/2017 7:00 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 1/4/2017 6:29 PM, -MIKE- wrote: Upgrading to 200A won't help you one bit. You are not tripping your main breaker, so it is not being over loaded. It does no good at all to deliver more current to your house than you are drawing. Jut don't waste your money upgrading a service entrance that does not nee upgrading. Any electrician that tells you this will fix your problem is just lying to you in order to take your money. I think it's a good idea for a few reasons. Start adding tools to the shop that have the potential of all running at once and you can overload a 100amp service quickly. The shop could have a table saw, dust collector, air compressor, lights, chargers, window air conditioner, mini-fridge, lights, shop-vac, all running at the same time, while in the house at the same time, you can have the whole-house AC running, a turkey in the oven on 400°, 3 pots on the stove, microwave on, washer and dryer both running, water heater heating water, someone using a hair dryer and curling iron, bunch of lights and TVs on and more. I just described a typical Saturday afternoon in many homes. All these things going at the same time is not uncommon and could easily exceed 100amp service. Upgrading to 200amps is a good idea for most any home, for the reasons stated above and more. The average family uses a lot more electricity than they used to. One of the first things you'll see listed on a home inspection when buying/selling a home is if the electric service is only 100amp. If he ever intends on selling the house, the upgrade isn't wasted money. You really have to assess the particular needs. For me, 200A would be waste. I don't have central AC, I don't have an electric range. I never run more than one power tool at a time. I don't think I've ever pulled more than 50A at a given time. Agreed. I have been using a 150 amp service since 1981, I have never tripped the main breaker and that house was all electric. On occasion I tripped the breaker on a 15 amp circuit in my old shop but that was with a 3 hp router running for 2 hours straight, a fan, a DC and lighting. The electric dryer and either the TS, Planer, or BS ran on the same 240 volt circuit at the same time with no problem. Today our newer home has a 150 amp service box and I had a dedicated 240 volt and a dedicated 120 volt 20 amp added before the house was built. I have 3 machines that run on 240 volt but never at the same time. The new house has gas so my demand is even lower than the previous 30 years. Furnace and water heater and range now run on gas. For me I have plenty, someone else may need more one day. |
TS Circuit -- Part 2
On Wed, 4 Jan 2017 10:31:49 -0800 (PST), "Gramps' shop"
wrote: First of all, thanks for all the comments and good advice. The breaker box is located in the garage and there is no clear, open route to the basement and on to the shop. Here's what I am going to do: Get an electrician to upgrade me to 200 amp service. Add a dedicated 20 amp and a dedicated 15 amp circuit to the shop. I'm guessing $1200 to $1500 for this and I suppose the utility will try to hit me up for the cost of a new meter. It's very unlikely that the power company will charge you anything to upgrade to 200A. I'm guessing that $1200 is well short of what it'll cost, though. If you don't need the 200A service for other things, a sub-panel would be the way to go. A sub-panel in the basement would be ideal. In the meantime, I'm done ripping the maple and on to completing the new kitchen table. Larry |
TS Circuit -- Part 2
On Wed, 4 Jan 2017 15:49:08 -0600, -MIKE-
wrote: On 1/4/17 3:19 PM, Unquestionably Confused wrote: On 1/4/2017 1:03 PM, -MIKE- wrote: On 1/4/17 12:31 PM, Gramps' shop wrote: First of all, thanks for all the comments and good advice. The breaker box is located in the garage and there is no clear, open route to the basement and on to the shop. Here's what I am going to do: Get an electrician to upgrade me to 200 amp service. Add a dedicated 20 amp and a dedicated 15 amp circuit to the shop. I'm guessing $1200 to $1500 for this and I suppose the utility will try to hit me up for the cost of a new meter. In the meantime, I'm done ripping the maple and on to completing the new kitchen table. Larry I wouldn't cost much more to have a 40-60amp sub-panel in the shop area. That would make it super easy for you to run extra circuits/outlets in the shop whenever you wanted. If you ever decided to wire your saw for 220 or add a 220 dust collector, etc., you would have to run the wire all the way back to the garage. Either way, upgrading the house to 200amp is a good call. Larry, Mike's suggestion is the best I've seen for your situation and current course of action. Bite the bullet and run the sub-panel to the shop vs. the two circuits you propose. When I built my shop and detached garage, we ran UF from the meter can at the house (which has a 200A panel) to the garage and installed a 100A panel there. Lights in the shop are separate circuit. Garage lights are on two separate circuits (one of which also has the door opener) and wall outlets in garage and shop are two separate circuit. Shop and garage have a total of three 220v circuits and I still have room in the panel (and easy enough access) that I can add more if needed (but don't see that happening). Going the subpanel route for shop and giving yourself a new "starting point" is simply a "no-brainer" The copper and labor are the two biggest expenses. Running one piece of wire through the walls, ceiling, attic, whatever, over to the shop is going to be easier than running two. Two lengths of 12gauge romex aren't going to be be much less than one length of #6 (probably what he'll need to go to sub-panel). #8 is good for 40A, IIRC. That's enough for any one man shop. It's a *lot* easier to work with. #6 is a right PITA. It will be more costly to run either than a couple of 12s. Actually, he could get away with one 12-3, for two circuits. BTW, #6-3 w/Ground Romex is 6x the cost, per foot, as 12-2 w/ground. Then the labor to install the sub-panel is probably another $100 bucks for an electrician who's already there. From there, he can run his own wiring in the shop to save money. I think you're way low on your estimates. |
TS Circuit -- Part 2
On Wed, 4 Jan 2017 17:43:14 -0700, "Bob La Londe"
wrote: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gramps' shop" Newsgroups: rec.woodworking Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2017 11:31 AM Subject: TS Circuit -- Part 2 First of all, thanks for all the comments and good advice. The breaker box is located in the garage and there is no clear, open route to the basement and on to the shop. Here's what I am going to do: Get an electrician to upgrade me to 200 amp service. Good call if you don't know how to do that yourself, or your local building department won't let you. Add a dedicated 20 amp and a dedicated 15 amp circuit to the shop. NO! NO! NO! Run a 100 amp circuit to the basement and install a 100 amp sub panel. Something capable of atleast 6 circuits. If you use Square D then you have the capability to use compact breakers and double the number of circuits if you need to later. Regardless, putting a sub panel in your basement allows you to add stuff much easier in the future. The size of the sub depends on the service entrance. If he only has a 100A entrance, a 100A sub is going to be a problem. Also, if he's going to the bother to put in a sub, use one with at least 20 circuits. The difference in cost is pocket change. I wouldn't put in more than a 40A or 60A sub, tops. There's nothing a homeowner is likely to use that will take that much. The capapbility of lots of circuits is important, though. The total cost will probably only be a few hundred dollars more, but the future flexibility will be an order of magnitude more. I'm guessing $1200 to $1500 for this and I suppose the utility will try to hit me up for the cost of a new meter. Get a quote so you aren't guessing. +1 (I think he's low) |
TS Circuit -- Part 2
On Wed, 4 Jan 2017 19:18:10 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:
On 1/4/2017 7:00 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote: On 1/4/2017 6:29 PM, -MIKE- wrote: Upgrading to 200A won't help you one bit. You are not tripping your main breaker, so it is not being over loaded. It does no good at all to deliver more current to your house than you are drawing. Jut don't waste your money upgrading a service entrance that does not nee upgrading. Any electrician that tells you this will fix your problem is just lying to you in order to take your money. I think it's a good idea for a few reasons. Start adding tools to the shop that have the potential of all running at once and you can overload a 100amp service quickly. The shop could have a table saw, dust collector, air compressor, lights, chargers, window air conditioner, mini-fridge, lights, shop-vac, all running at the same time, while in the house at the same time, you can have the whole-house AC running, a turkey in the oven on 400°, 3 pots on the stove, microwave on, washer and dryer both running, water heater heating water, someone using a hair dryer and curling iron, bunch of lights and TVs on and more. I just described a typical Saturday afternoon in many homes. All these things going at the same time is not uncommon and could easily exceed 100amp service. Upgrading to 200amps is a good idea for most any home, for the reasons stated above and more. The average family uses a lot more electricity than they used to. One of the first things you'll see listed on a home inspection when buying/selling a home is if the electric service is only 100amp. If he ever intends on selling the house, the upgrade isn't wasted money. You really have to assess the particular needs. For me, 200A would be waste. I don't have central AC, I don't have an electric range. I never run more than one power tool at a time. I don't think I've ever pulled more than 50A at a given time. Agreed. I have been using a 150 amp service since 1981, I have never tripped the main breaker and that house was all electric. I haven't trippen a main on any of my houses. I don't believe I've heard of anyone who has. I have two 150A panels, each with 40 breaker position, in an unfinished basement. No problems with power in this house. ;-) On occasion I tripped the breaker on a 15 amp circuit in my old shop but that was with a 3 hp router running for 2 hours straight, a fan, a DC and lighting. The electric dryer and either the TS, Planer, or BS ran on the same 240 volt circuit at the same time with no problem. Today our newer home has a 150 amp service box and I had a dedicated 240 volt and a dedicated 120 volt 20 amp added before the house was built. I would have run a sub. My last house had a 200A main but it was full, so I added a sub right next to it, moved to circuits from the house over to the sub, then used those spaces for a breaker to the sub (right next to the main). I have 3 machines that run on 240 volt but never at the same time. The new house has gas so my demand is even lower than the previous 30 years. Furnace and water heater and range now run on gas. For me I have plenty, someone else may need more one day. |
TS Circuit -- Part 2
On Wed, 4 Jan 2017 21:31:43 -0600, -MIKE-
wrote: On 1/4/17 8:33 PM, wrote: On Wed, 4 Jan 2017 15:49:08 -0600, -MIKE- wrote: On 1/4/17 3:19 PM, Unquestionably Confused wrote: On 1/4/2017 1:03 PM, -MIKE- wrote: On 1/4/17 12:31 PM, Gramps' shop wrote: First of all, thanks for all the comments and good advice. The breaker box is located in the garage and there is no clear, open route to the basement and on to the shop. Here's what I am going to do: Get an electrician to upgrade me to 200 amp service. Add a dedicated 20 amp and a dedicated 15 amp circuit to the shop. I'm guessing $1200 to $1500 for this and I suppose the utility will try to hit me up for the cost of a new meter. In the meantime, I'm done ripping the maple and on to completing the new kitchen table. Larry I wouldn't cost much more to have a 40-60amp sub-panel in the shop area. That would make it super easy for you to run extra circuits/outlets in the shop whenever you wanted. If you ever decided to wire your saw for 220 or add a 220 dust collector, etc., you would have to run the wire all the way back to the garage. Either way, upgrading the house to 200amp is a good call. Larry, Mike's suggestion is the best I've seen for your situation and current course of action. Bite the bullet and run the sub-panel to the shop vs. the two circuits you propose. When I built my shop and detached garage, we ran UF from the meter can at the house (which has a 200A panel) to the garage and installed a 100A panel there. Lights in the shop are separate circuit. Garage lights are on two separate circuits (one of which also has the door opener) and wall outlets in garage and shop are two separate circuit. Shop and garage have a total of three 220v circuits and I still have room in the panel (and easy enough access) that I can add more if needed (but don't see that happening). Going the subpanel route for shop and giving yourself a new "starting point" is simply a "no-brainer" The copper and labor are the two biggest expenses. Running one piece of wire through the walls, ceiling, attic, whatever, over to the shop is going to be easier than running two. Two lengths of 12gauge romex aren't going to be be much less than one length of #6 (probably what he'll need to go to sub-panel). #8 is good for 40A, IIRC. That's enough for any one man shop. It's a *lot* easier to work with. #6 is a right PITA. It will be more costly to run either than a couple of 12s. Actually, he could get away with one 12-3, for two circuits. BTW, #6-3 w/Ground Romex is 6x the cost, per foot, as 12-2 w/ground. That wasn't really the pertinent point I was trying to make. The labor cost for one #6 will be much higher, too. That stuff is a PITA to work with. Then the labor to install the sub-panel is probably another $100 bucks for an electrician who's already there. From there, he can run his own wiring in the shop to save money. I think you're way low on your estimates. Ask the electrician who quoted that to me when we were spec'ing out a 200amp breaker box change over. He said installing the other panel wouldn't be more than another hour and a half labor on top of everything else he was doing. He charges $60/hr. Just moving the breakers will take a lot more than a couple of hours. It's more like an 8-12 hour job. Then there's the dicking around with the power company and inspectors, and all that rot. It's not a simple task. I've seen quotes well above $1000 for just a panel swap. |
TS Circuit -- Part 2
Agree with everyone else about running a subpanel instead of the couple circuits. I have a 100 amp panel in the garage. I used a 60 amp breaker to put a subpanel in the basement. I installed a lot of circuits and lights and two 220 plugs in the basement. Had to use some of the double breakers to make room in the main panel for the subpanel breaker.
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TS Circuit -- Part 2
On Wednesday, January 4, 2017 at 12:31:52 PM UTC-6, Gramps' shop wrote:
First of all, thanks for all the comments and good advice. The breaker box is located in the garage and there is no clear, open route to the basement and on to the shop. Here's what I am going to do: Get an electrician to upgrade me to 200 amp service. Add a dedicated 20 amp and a dedicated 15 amp circuit to the shop. I'm guessing $1200 to $1500 for this and I suppose the utility will try to hit me up for the cost of a new meter. In the meantime, I'm done ripping the maple and on to completing the new kitchen table. Larry I agree with Mike and Unquestionably. In fact that is the setup I have. That subpanel just makes life soooooooo much easier, but get one with at least 8 breakers spaces in it. One change I would make to their suggestions, I would run 100A to the shop. That way you have plenty of power if you wind up adding something that likes it amps. Also, depending on both where you live and your comfort level, you can do the wiring of the shop yourself and save a lot. Also, depending on where you live, the power company may not require a new meter. If you are aerial to the house (vs buried cable), they may run the heavier service to your house at no cost. |
TS Circuit -- Part 2
"Gramps' shop" wrote in
: First of all, thanks for all the comments and good advice. The breaker box is located in the garage and there is no clear, open route to the basement and on to the shop. Here's what I am going to do: Get an electrician to upgrade me to 200 amp service. Add a dedicated 20 amp and a dedicated 15 amp circuit to the shop. Not enough IMHO. If you're hiring an electrician anyway, have him run one 240V 60A circuit feeding a subpanel in the shop. That way, you'll have 240V available in the shop if you ever need it, and more than one 20A circuit at 120V. |
TS Circuit -- Part 2
On 1/4/17 9:43 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 4 Jan 2017 21:31:43 -0600, -MIKE- wrote: On 1/4/17 8:33 PM, wrote: On Wed, 4 Jan 2017 15:49:08 -0600, -MIKE- wrote: On 1/4/17 3:19 PM, Unquestionably Confused wrote: On 1/4/2017 1:03 PM, -MIKE- wrote: On 1/4/17 12:31 PM, Gramps' shop wrote: First of all, thanks for all the comments and good advice. The breaker box is located in the garage and there is no clear, open route to the basement and on to the shop. Here's what I am going to do: Get an electrician to upgrade me to 200 amp service. Add a dedicated 20 amp and a dedicated 15 amp circuit to the shop. I'm guessing $1200 to $1500 for this and I suppose the utility will try to hit me up for the cost of a new meter. In the meantime, I'm done ripping the maple and on to completing the new kitchen table. Larry I wouldn't cost much more to have a 40-60amp sub-panel in the shop area. That would make it super easy for you to run extra circuits/outlets in the shop whenever you wanted. If you ever decided to wire your saw for 220 or add a 220 dust collector, etc., you would have to run the wire all the way back to the garage. Either way, upgrading the house to 200amp is a good call. Larry, Mike's suggestion is the best I've seen for your situation and current course of action. Bite the bullet and run the sub-panel to the shop vs. the two circuits you propose. When I built my shop and detached garage, we ran UF from the meter can at the house (which has a 200A panel) to the garage and installed a 100A panel there. Lights in the shop are separate circuit. Garage lights are on two separate circuits (one of which also has the door opener) and wall outlets in garage and shop are two separate circuit. Shop and garage have a total of three 220v circuits and I still have room in the panel (and easy enough access) that I can add more if needed (but don't see that happening). Going the subpanel route for shop and giving yourself a new "starting point" is simply a "no-brainer" The copper and labor are the two biggest expenses. Running one piece of wire through the walls, ceiling, attic, whatever, over to the shop is going to be easier than running two. Two lengths of 12gauge romex aren't going to be be much less than one length of #6 (probably what he'll need to go to sub-panel). #8 is good for 40A, IIRC. That's enough for any one man shop. It's a *lot* easier to work with. #6 is a right PITA. It will be more costly to run either than a couple of 12s. Actually, he could get away with one 12-3, for two circuits. BTW, #6-3 w/Ground Romex is 6x the cost, per foot, as 12-2 w/ground. That wasn't really the pertinent point I was trying to make. The labor cost for one #6 will be much higher, too. That stuff is a PITA to work with. Then the labor to install the sub-panel is probably another $100 bucks for an electrician who's already there. From there, he can run his own wiring in the shop to save money. I think you're way low on your estimates. Ask the electrician who quoted that to me when we were spec'ing out a 200amp breaker box change over. He said installing the other panel wouldn't be more than another hour and a half labor on top of everything else he was doing. He charges $60/hr. Just moving the breakers will take a lot more than a couple of hours. It's more like an 8-12 hour job. Then there's the dicking around with the power company and inspectors, and all that rot. It's not a simple task. I've seen quotes well above $1000 for just a panel swap. There are no breakers to move when installing a new sub-panel. But you know what, I'll tell my electrician he has it all wrong and he should call you. -- -MIKE- "Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life" --Elvin Jones (1927-2004) -- http://mikedrums.com ---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply |
TS Circuit -- Part 2
On 1/4/2017 5:51 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Gramps' shop wrote: First of all, thanks for all the comments and good advice. The breaker box is located in the garage and there is no clear, open route to the basement and on to the shop. Here's what I am going to do: Get an electrician to upgrade me to 200 amp service. Add a dedicated 20 amp and a dedicated 15 amp circuit to the shop. I'm guessing $1200 to $1500 for this and I suppose the utility will try to hit me up for the cost of a new meter. In the meantime, I'm done ripping the maple and on to completing the new kitchen table. Larry Upgrading to 200A won't help you one bit. You are not tripping your main breaker, so it is not being over loaded. It does no good at all to deliver more current to your house than you are drawing. Go back to your original plan of putting a 20A breaker in the circuit as long as you have 12ga wire in that branch circuit. Jut don't waste your money upgrading a service entrance that does not nee upgrading. Any electrician that tells you this will fix your problem is just lying to you in order to take your money. Mike Marlow ... how the hell are you...??? -- Jeff --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus |
TS Circuit -- Part 2
On Thursday, January 5, 2017 at 11:57:33 AM UTC-6, -MIKE- wrote:
There are no breakers to move when installing a new sub-panel. ??? To install a sub panel you have to "move" a new/additional 220 amp breaker into the main panel. New breaker. You may have to use some of those double up breakers to make space for the new 220 breaker feeding the sub panel. So you would be moving those breakers. |
TS Circuit -- Part 2
On 1/5/17 5:34 PM, wrote:
On Thursday, January 5, 2017 at 11:57:33 AM UTC-6, -MIKE- wrote: There are no breakers to move when installing a new sub-panel. ??? To install a sub panel you have to "move" a new/additional 220 amp breaker into the main panel. New breaker. You may have to use some of those double up breakers to make space for the new 220 breaker feeding the sub panel. So you would be moving those breakers. I think there's some misunderstanding of what we're talking about. I suggested the OP put a sub-panel out in his garage. This can come off the main feed into the house. I'm not sure what a 220amp breaker is that you mentioned. But it really doesn't matter anyway, because it's semantics since every situation is different. The labor/price I quoted was from a real electrician doing a real job, similar to the one I suggested to the OP. I wasn't submitting a bid or giving him an exact quote for the job. I was simply giving advice and a real world example to help him decide. As usual in here, everybody has to jump in and bitch about every little aspect of everything everyone says. -- -MIKE- "Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life" --Elvin Jones (1927-2004) -- http://mikedrums.com ---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply |
TS Circuit -- Part 2
On Thursday, January 5, 2017 at 7:05:40 PM UTC-6, -MIKE- wrote:
On 1/5/17 5:34 PM, wrote: On Thursday, January 5, 2017 at 11:57:33 AM UTC-6, -MIKE- wrote: There are no breakers to move when installing a new sub-panel. ??? To install a sub panel you have to "move" a new/additional 220 amp breaker into the main panel. New breaker. You may have to use some of those double up breakers to make space for the new 220 breaker feeding the sub panel. So you would be moving those breakers. I think there's some misunderstanding of what we're talking about. I suggested the OP put a sub-panel out in his garage. This can come off the main feed into the house. I'm not sure what a 220amp breaker is that you mentioned. Maybe some misunderstanding. How about a 60 amp 220 volt breaker in the main panel to feed the sub panel. But it really doesn't matter anyway, because it's semantics since every situation is different. The labor/price I quoted was from a real electrician doing a real job, similar to the one I suggested to the OP. I wasn't submitting a bid or giving him an exact quote for the job. I was simply giving advice and a real world example to help him decide. As usual in here, everybody has to jump in and bitch about every little aspect of everything everyone says. -- -MIKE- "Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life" --Elvin Jones (1927-2004) -- http://mikedrums.com ---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply |
TS Circuit -- Part 2
On Thu, 5 Jan 2017 11:57:29 -0600, -MIKE-
wrote: On 1/4/17 9:43 PM, wrote: On Wed, 4 Jan 2017 21:31:43 -0600, -MIKE- wrote: On 1/4/17 8:33 PM, wrote: On Wed, 4 Jan 2017 15:49:08 -0600, -MIKE- wrote: On 1/4/17 3:19 PM, Unquestionably Confused wrote: On 1/4/2017 1:03 PM, -MIKE- wrote: On 1/4/17 12:31 PM, Gramps' shop wrote: First of all, thanks for all the comments and good advice. The breaker box is located in the garage and there is no clear, open route to the basement and on to the shop. Here's what I am going to do: Get an electrician to upgrade me to 200 amp service. Add a dedicated 20 amp and a dedicated 15 amp circuit to the shop. I'm guessing $1200 to $1500 for this and I suppose the utility will try to hit me up for the cost of a new meter. In the meantime, I'm done ripping the maple and on to completing the new kitchen table. Larry I wouldn't cost much more to have a 40-60amp sub-panel in the shop area. That would make it super easy for you to run extra circuits/outlets in the shop whenever you wanted. If you ever decided to wire your saw for 220 or add a 220 dust collector, etc., you would have to run the wire all the way back to the garage. Either way, upgrading the house to 200amp is a good call. Larry, Mike's suggestion is the best I've seen for your situation and current course of action. Bite the bullet and run the sub-panel to the shop vs. the two circuits you propose. When I built my shop and detached garage, we ran UF from the meter can at the house (which has a 200A panel) to the garage and installed a 100A panel there. Lights in the shop are separate circuit. Garage lights are on two separate circuits (one of which also has the door opener) and wall outlets in garage and shop are two separate circuit. Shop and garage have a total of three 220v circuits and I still have room in the panel (and easy enough access) that I can add more if needed (but don't see that happening). Going the subpanel route for shop and giving yourself a new "starting point" is simply a "no-brainer" The copper and labor are the two biggest expenses. Running one piece of wire through the walls, ceiling, attic, whatever, over to the shop is going to be easier than running two. Two lengths of 12gauge romex aren't going to be be much less than one length of #6 (probably what he'll need to go to sub-panel). #8 is good for 40A, IIRC. That's enough for any one man shop. It's a *lot* easier to work with. #6 is a right PITA. It will be more costly to run either than a couple of 12s. Actually, he could get away with one 12-3, for two circuits. BTW, #6-3 w/Ground Romex is 6x the cost, per foot, as 12-2 w/ground. That wasn't really the pertinent point I was trying to make. The labor cost for one #6 will be much higher, too. That stuff is a PITA to work with. Then the labor to install the sub-panel is probably another $100 bucks for an electrician who's already there. From there, he can run his own wiring in the shop to save money. I think you're way low on your estimates. Ask the electrician who quoted that to me when we were spec'ing out a 200amp breaker box change over. He said installing the other panel wouldn't be more than another hour and a half labor on top of everything else he was doing. He charges $60/hr. Just moving the breakers will take a lot more than a couple of hours. It's more like an 8-12 hour job. Then there's the dicking around with the power company and inspectors, and all that rot. It's not a simple task. I've seen quotes well above $1000 for just a panel swap. There are no breakers to move when installing a new sub-panel. But you know what, I'll tell my electrician he has it all wrong and he should call you. Sorry, I thougt we were talking about replacing the panel with a 200A service. I agree, a sub shoud only take an hour or two (give or take a bunch of sheetrock). |
TS Circuit -- Part 2
On Thu, 5 Jan 2017 19:05:36 -0600, -MIKE-
wrote: On 1/5/17 5:34 PM, wrote: On Thursday, January 5, 2017 at 11:57:33 AM UTC-6, -MIKE- wrote: There are no breakers to move when installing a new sub-panel. ??? To install a sub panel you have to "move" a new/additional 220 amp breaker into the main panel. New breaker. You may have to use some of those double up breakers to make space for the new 220 breaker feeding the sub panel. So you would be moving those breakers. I think there's some misunderstanding of what we're talking about. I suggested the OP put a sub-panel out in his garage. This can come off the main feed into the house. I'm not sure what a 220amp breaker is that you mentioned. I think he means 220V breaker. If the main panel is full, then space has to be made for the breaker feeding the sub. At least that's how I read it. But it really doesn't matter anyway, because it's semantics since every situation is different. The labor/price I quoted was from a real electrician doing a real job, similar to the one I suggested to the OP. I wasn't submitting a bid or giving him an exact quote for the job. I was simply giving advice and a real world example to help him decide. As usual in here, everybody has to jump in and bitch about every little aspect of everything everyone says. |
TS Circuit -- Part 2
|
TS Circuit -- Part 2
wrote in message
... On Wed, 4 Jan 2017 17:43:14 -0700, "Bob La Londe" wrote: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gramps' shop" Newsgroups: rec.woodworking Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2017 11:31 AM Subject: TS Circuit -- Part 2 First of all, thanks for all the comments and good advice. The breaker box is located in the garage and there is no clear, open route to the basement and on to the shop. Here's what I am going to do: Get an electrician to upgrade me to 200 amp service. Good call if you don't know how to do that yourself, or your local building department won't let you. Add a dedicated 20 amp and a dedicated 15 amp circuit to the shop. NO! NO! NO! Run a 100 amp circuit to the basement and install a 100 amp sub panel. Something capable of atleast 6 circuits. If you use Square D then you have the capability to use compact breakers and double the number of circuits if you need to later. Regardless, putting a sub panel in your basement allows you to add stuff much easier in the future. The size of the sub depends on the service entrance. If he only has a 100A entrance, a 100A sub is going to be a problem. Also, if he's going to the bother to put in a sub, use one with at least 20 circuits. The difference in cost is pocket change. I wouldn't put in more than a 40A or 60A sub, tops. There's nothing a homeowner is likely to use that will take that much. The capapbility of lots of circuits is important, though. The total cost will probably only be a few hundred dollars more, but the future flexibility will be an order of magnitude more. I'm guessing $1200 to $1500 for this and I suppose the utility will try to hit me up for the cost of a new meter. Get a quote so you aren't guessing. +1 (I think he's low) I think we are mostly on the same page here. We just disagree about the details. |
TS Circuit -- Part 2
On Friday, January 6, 2017 at 8:16:13 AM UTC-6, Leon wrote:
On 1/5/2017 8:00 PM, wrote: I suggested the OP put a sub-panel out in his garage. This can come off the main feed into the house. I'm not sure what a 220amp breaker is that you mentioned. I think he means 220V breaker. If the main panel is full, then space has to be made for the breaker feeding the sub. At least that's how I read it. Maybe even he meant 240 volt. Not being an officially trained electrician, I've never looked into the 220-230-240 volt or 120-115-110 volt issue. I'm pretty sure those are all identical and interchangeable, but why are all the numbers used interchangeably? Why don't we pick one number and use it? Why does everyone talk about 120 volt outlets in their house, but the outlet says 115 volts. |
TS Circuit -- Part 2
On 1/6/2017 1:59 PM, wrote:
On Friday, January 6, 2017 at 8:16:13 AM UTC-6, Leon wrote: On 1/5/2017 8:00 PM, wrote: I suggested the OP put a sub-panel out in his garage. This can come off the main feed into the house. I'm not sure what a 220amp breaker is that you mentioned. I think he means 220V breaker. If the main panel is full, then space has to be made for the breaker feeding the sub. At least that's how I read it. Maybe even he meant 240 volt. Not being an officially trained electrician, I've never looked into the 220-230-240 volt or 120-115-110 volt issue. I'm pretty sure those are all identical and interchangeable, but why are all the numbers used interchangeably? Why don't we pick one number and use it? Why does everyone talk about 120 volt outlets in their house, but the outlet says 115 volts. IIRC it was 110/220, now it is 120/240 in the USA. Why that changed I do not know unless it was to be able to save on the gauge of cables and wires. And most home electrical devices will run on slightly less than and or slightly higher than the stated voltage. Oddly I think 440 volt is still normal |
TS Circuit -- Part 2
On Fri, 6 Jan 2017 11:59:04 -0800 (PST), "
wrote: On Friday, January 6, 2017 at 8:16:13 AM UTC-6, Leon wrote: On 1/5/2017 8:00 PM, wrote: I suggested the OP put a sub-panel out in his garage. This can come off the main feed into the house. I'm not sure what a 220amp breaker is that you mentioned. I think he means 220V breaker. If the main panel is full, then space has to be made for the breaker feeding the sub. At least that's how I read it. Maybe even he meant 240 volt. Not being an officially trained electrician, I've never looked into the 220-230-240 volt or 120-115-110 volt issue. I'm pretty sure those are all identical and interchangeable, but why are all the numbers used interchangeably? Why don't we pick one number and use it? Why does everyone talk about 120 volt outlets in their house, but the outlet says 115 volts. It could also be 132 Vac so that would be 264. Just as long as it works does not matter what you call it. |
TS Circuit -- Part 2
" wrote in
: Not being an officially trained electrician, I've never looked into the 220-230-240 volt or 120-115-110 volt issue. I'm pretty sure those are all identical and interchangeable, but why are all the numbers used interchangeably? Why don't we pick one number and use it? Why does everyone talk about 120 volt outlets in their house, but the outlet says 115 volts. It's a variety of historical reasons. 110V is what Edison originally used for his first DC systems (for reasons no longer understood, that was considered "safe"). When Tesla and General Electric developed AC systems, they picked 120V as the "household" voltage, but because 110 was already in the public conciousness, people continued to call it 110V. 115V comes about because the utility is allowed 5% tolerance for line loss, and 115 just sounds better than 114 (which is what 120 less 5% would be). 220V and 240V are the same story - Edison used 220V in his first DC systems, and GE used 240 when they introduced AC. 230V is a different animal - that's a 3 phase voltage in the US. It's the standard household voltage in the EU, so if you see something marked 230/240 it's probably intended for sale in the EU and US. John |
TS Circuit -- Part 2
On 1/6/2017 3:40 PM, John McCoy wrote:
" wrote in : Not being an officially trained electrician, I've never looked into the 220-230-240 volt or 120-115-110 volt issue. I'm pretty sure those are all identical and interchangeable, but why are all the numbers used interchangeably? Why don't we pick one number and use it? Why does everyone talk about 120 volt outlets in their house, but the outlet says 115 volts. It's a variety of historical reasons. 110V is what Edison originally used for his first DC systems (for reasons no longer understood, that was considered "safe"). Probably considered safe because DC lost voltage quickly the farther from the generator the lines went. IIRC there had to be a generator within a few miles of the consumer. AC on the other hand still had quite a bight many miles away. When Tesla and General Electric developed AC systems, they picked 120V as the "household" voltage, but because 110 was already in the public conciousness, people continued to call it 110V. 115V comes about because the utility is allowed 5% tolerance for line loss, and 115 just sounds better than 114 (which is what 120 less 5% would be). 220V and 240V are the same story - Edison used 220V in his first DC systems, and GE used 240 when they introduced AC. 230V is a different animal - that's a 3 phase voltage in the US. It's the standard household voltage in the EU, so if you see something marked 230/240 it's probably intended for sale in the EU and US. John |
TS Circuit -- Part 2
On 1/6/17 3:40 PM, John McCoy wrote:
" wrote in : Not being an officially trained electrician, I've never looked into the 220-230-240 volt or 120-115-110 volt issue. I'm pretty sure those are all identical and interchangeable, but why are all the numbers used interchangeably? Why don't we pick one number and use it? Why does everyone talk about 120 volt outlets in their house, but the outlet says 115 volts. It's a variety of historical reasons. 110V is what Edison originally used for his first DC systems (for reasons no longer understood, that was considered "safe"). When Tesla and General Electric developed AC systems, they picked 120V as the "household" voltage, but because 110 was already in the public conciousness, people continued to call it 110V. 115V comes about because the utility is allowed 5% tolerance for line loss, and 115 just sounds better than 114 (which is what 120 less 5% would be). 220V and 240V are the same story - Edison used 220V in his first DC systems, and GE used 240 when they introduced AC. 230V is a different animal - that's a 3 phase voltage in the US. It's the standard household voltage in the EU, so if you see something marked 230/240 it's probably intended for sale in the EU and US. John "One ten, one eleven, whatever takes." -- -MIKE- "Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life" --Elvin Jones (1927-2004) -- http://mikedrums.com ---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply |
TS Circuit -- Part 2
On 1/6/2017 3:52 PM, Leon wrote:
Oddly I think 440 volt is still normal Unless is is 480 I read the explanation once but still don't get 277 volts from 2 legs of 3 phase. The nominal 120 was decided as the standard for north America but I'm not sure when. Voltages were 110, 115, 117 in different places some years ago. |
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