First of all, thanks for all the comments and good advice. The breaker box is located in the garage and there is no clear, open route to the basement and on to the shop. Here's what I am going to do:

Get an electrician to upgrade me to 200 amp service. Add a dedicated 20 amp and a dedicated 15 amp circuit to the shop. I'm guessing $1200 to $1500 for this and I suppose the utility will try to hit me up for the cost of a new meter.

In the meantime, I'm done ripping the maple and on to completing the new kitchen table.

Larry

On Wednesday, January 4, 2017 at 1:31:52 PM UTC-5, Gramps' shop wrote:
First of all, thanks for all the comments and good advice. The breaker box is located in the garage and there is no clear, open route to the basement and on to the shop. Here's what I am going to do:

Get an electrician to upgrade me to 200 amp service. Add a dedicated 20 amp and a dedicated 15 amp circuit to the shop. I'm guessing $1200 to $1500 for this and I suppose the utility will try to hit me up for the cost of a new meter.

In the meantime, I'm done ripping the maple and on to completing the new kitchen table.

Larry

Sounds like a great plan. Lights on a non-power tool circuit, I assume?

Now finish up that table so you'll have a nice place to sit while you
write out those checks. ;-)

On 1/4/2017 1:31 PM, Gramps' shop wrote:
First of all, thanks for all the comments and good advice. The breaker box is located in the garage and there is no clear, open route to the basement and on to the shop. Here's what I am going to do:

Get an electrician to upgrade me to 200 amp service. Add a dedicated 20 amp and a dedicated 15 amp circuit to the shop. I'm guessing $1200 to $1500 for this and I suppose the utility will try to hit me up for the cost of a new meter.

In the meantime, I'm done ripping the maple and on to completing the new kitchen table.

Larry

If you are going to have an electrician come in and do the work, the
major part of the cost will be labor. It takes no longer to fish a wire
for a 20 amp circuit than it does an 15 amp circuit So you may as well
put in two 20 amp circuits and be prepared for the new Joiner that your
wife is getting you for your birthday, ;-)

On 1/4/17 12:31 PM, Gramps' shop wrote:
First of all, thanks for all the comments and good advice. The
breaker box is located in the garage and there is no clear, open
route to the basement and on to the shop. Here's what I am going to
do:

Get an electrician to upgrade me to 200 amp service. Add a
dedicated 20 amp and a dedicated 15 amp circuit to the shop. I'm
guessing $1200 to $1500 for this and I suppose the utility will try
to hit me up for the cost of a new meter.

In the meantime, I'm done ripping the maple and on to completing the
new kitchen table.

Larry


I wouldn't cost much more to have a 40-60amp sub-panel in the shop area.
That would make it super easy for you to run extra circuits/outlets in
the shop whenever you wanted. If you ever decided to wire your saw for
220 or add a 220 dust collector, etc., you would have to run the wire
all the way back to the garage.

Either way, upgrading the house to 200amp is a good call.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 1/4/2017 1:03 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 1/4/17 12:31 PM, Gramps' shop wrote:
First of all, thanks for all the comments and good advice. The
breaker box is located in the garage and there is no clear, open
route to the basement and on to the shop. Here's what I am going to
do:

Get an electrician to upgrade me to 200 amp service. Add a
dedicated 20 amp and a dedicated 15 amp circuit to the shop. I'm
guessing $1200 to $1500 for this and I suppose the utility will try
to hit me up for the cost of a new meter.

In the meantime, I'm done ripping the maple and on to completing the
new kitchen table.

Larry


I wouldn't cost much more to have a 40-60amp sub-panel in the shop area.
That would make it super easy for you to run extra circuits/outlets in
the shop whenever you wanted. If you ever decided to wire your saw for
220 or add a 220 dust collector, etc., you would have to run the wire
all the way back to the garage.

Either way, upgrading the house to 200amp is a good call.

Larry, Mike's suggestion is the best I've seen for your situation and
current course of action. Bite the bullet and run the sub-panel to the
shop vs. the two circuits you propose.

When I built my shop and detached garage, we ran UF from the meter can
at the house (which has a 200A panel) to the garage and installed a 100A
panel there. Lights in the shop are separate circuit. Garage lights
are on two separate circuits (one of which also has the door opener) and
wall outlets in garage and shop are two separate circuit.

Shop and garage have a total of three 220v circuits and I still have
room in the panel (and easy enough access) that I can add more if needed
(but don't see that happening).

Going the subpanel route for shop and giving yourself a new "starting
point" is simply a "no-brainer"

On 1/4/17 3:19 PM, Unquestionably Confused wrote:
On 1/4/2017 1:03 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 1/4/17 12:31 PM, Gramps' shop wrote:
First of all, thanks for all the comments and good advice. The
breaker box is located in the garage and there is no clear, open
route to the basement and on to the shop. Here's what I am going
to do:

Get an electrician to upgrade me to 200 amp service. Add a
dedicated 20 amp and a dedicated 15 amp circuit to the shop.
I'm guessing $1200 to $1500 for this and I suppose the utility
will try to hit me up for the cost of a new meter.

In the meantime, I'm done ripping the maple and on to completing
the new kitchen table.

Larry


I wouldn't cost much more to have a 40-60amp sub-panel in the shop
area. That would make it super easy for you to run extra
circuits/outlets in the shop whenever you wanted. If you ever
decided to wire your saw for 220 or add a 220 dust collector, etc.,
you would have to run the wire all the way back to the garage.

Either way, upgrading the house to 200amp is a good call.

Larry, Mike's suggestion is the best I've seen for your situation
and current course of action. Bite the bullet and run the sub-panel
to the shop vs. the two circuits you propose.

When I built my shop and detached garage, we ran UF from the meter
can at the house (which has a 200A panel) to the garage and installed
a 100A panel there. Lights in the shop are separate circuit. Garage
lights are on two separate circuits (one of which also has the door
opener) and wall outlets in garage and shop are two separate
circuit.

Shop and garage have a total of three 220v circuits and I still have
room in the panel (and easy enough access) that I can add more if
needed (but don't see that happening).

Going the subpanel route for shop and giving yourself a new
"starting point" is simply a "no-brainer"


The copper and labor are the two biggest expenses.
Running one piece of wire through the walls, ceiling, attic, whatever,
over to the shop is going to be easier than running two. Two lengths of
12gauge romex aren't going to be be much less than one length of #6
(probably what he'll need to go to sub-panel).

Then the labor to install the sub-panel is probably another $100 bucks
for an electrician who's already there. From there, he can run his own
wiring in the shop to save money.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 1/4/2017 3:49 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 1/4/17 3:19 PM, Unquestionably Confused wrote:
On 1/4/2017 1:03 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 1/4/17 12:31 PM, Gramps' shop wrote:
First of all, thanks for all the comments and good advice. The
breaker box is located in the garage and there is no clear, open
route to the basement and on to the shop. Here's what I am going
to do:

Get an electrician to upgrade me to 200 amp service. Add a
dedicated 20 amp and a dedicated 15 amp circuit to the shop.
I'm guessing $1200 to $1500 for this and I suppose the utility
will try to hit me up for the cost of a new meter.

In the meantime, I'm done ripping the maple and on to completing
the new kitchen table.


[snip]

Going the subpanel route for shop and giving yourself a new
"starting point" is simply a "no-brainer"


The copper and labor are the two biggest expenses.
Running one piece of wire through the walls, ceiling, attic, whatever,
over to the shop is going to be easier than running two. Two lengths of
12gauge romex aren't going to be be much less than one length of #6
(probably what he'll need to go to sub-panel).

Then the labor to install the sub-panel is probably another $100 bucks
for an electrician who's already there. From there, he can run his own
wiring in the shop to save money.

GMTA! Unless Larry is clairvoyant, there's no telling what he may wish
to include in the shop at some future date. Given that the cost of
installing a sub-panel is likely within spitting distance of simply
ensuring that he has an adequate electric supply to the shop for NOW he
definitely should "Go big or go home!"

Any changes necessary down the road will be child's play for the average
handyman who can read and understand the relevant portions of NEC.

On 1/4/2017 4:49 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 1/4/17 3:19 PM, Unquestionably Confused wrote:
On 1/4/2017 1:03 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 1/4/17 12:31 PM, Gramps' shop wrote:
First of all, thanks for all the comments and good advice. The
breaker box is located in the garage and there is no clear, open
route to the basement and on to the shop. Here's what I am going
to do:

Get an electrician to upgrade me to 200 amp service. Add a
dedicated 20 amp and a dedicated 15 amp circuit to the shop.
I'm guessing $1200 to $1500 for this and I suppose the utility
will try to hit me up for the cost of a new meter.

In the meantime, I'm done ripping the maple and on to completing
the new kitchen table.

Larry


I wouldn't cost much more to have a 40-60amp sub-panel in the shop
area. That would make it super easy for you to run extra
circuits/outlets in the shop whenever you wanted. If you ever
decided to wire your saw for 220 or add a 220 dust collector, etc.,
you would have to run the wire all the way back to the garage.

Either way, upgrading the house to 200amp is a good call.

Larry, Mike's suggestion is the best I've seen for your situation
and current course of action. Bite the bullet and run the sub-panel
to the shop vs. the two circuits you propose.

When I built my shop and detached garage, we ran UF from the meter
can at the house (which has a 200A panel) to the garage and installed
a 100A panel there. Lights in the shop are separate circuit. Garage
lights are on two separate circuits (one of which also has the door
opener) and wall outlets in garage and shop are two separate
circuit.

Shop and garage have a total of three 220v circuits and I still have
room in the panel (and easy enough access) that I can add more if
needed (but don't see that happening).

Going the subpanel route for shop and giving yourself a new
"starting point" is simply a "no-brainer"


The copper and labor are the two biggest expenses.
Running one piece of wire through the walls, ceiling, attic, whatever,
over to the shop is going to be easier than running two. Two lengths of
12gauge romex aren't going to be be much less than one length of #6
(probably what he'll need to go to sub-panel).

Then the labor to install the sub-panel is probably another $100 bucks
for an electrician who's already there. From there, he can run his own
wiring in the shop to save money.


What ever he does he must make sure that the installation meets the
current building code for the community where the building is located.

As I found out a couple of years ago, even the installation of a simple
circuit may require a building permit.

While a building permit if required is a pain in the you know where, it
can save you a tremendous amount of hassle if you sell your home or if
there is a insurance claim in that area where the work occurred.

On Wed, 4 Jan 2017 15:49:08 -0600, -MIKE-
wrote:

On 1/4/17 3:19 PM, Unquestionably Confused wrote:
On 1/4/2017 1:03 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 1/4/17 12:31 PM, Gramps' shop wrote:
First of all, thanks for all the comments and good advice. The
breaker box is located in the garage and there is no clear, open
route to the basement and on to the shop. Here's what I am going
to do:

Get an electrician to upgrade me to 200 amp service. Add a
dedicated 20 amp and a dedicated 15 amp circuit to the shop.
I'm guessing $1200 to $1500 for this and I suppose the utility
will try to hit me up for the cost of a new meter.

In the meantime, I'm done ripping the maple and on to completing
the new kitchen table.

Larry


I wouldn't cost much more to have a 40-60amp sub-panel in the shop
area. That would make it super easy for you to run extra
circuits/outlets in the shop whenever you wanted. If you ever
decided to wire your saw for 220 or add a 220 dust collector, etc.,
you would have to run the wire all the way back to the garage.

Either way, upgrading the house to 200amp is a good call.

Larry, Mike's suggestion is the best I've seen for your situation
and current course of action. Bite the bullet and run the sub-panel
to the shop vs. the two circuits you propose.

When I built my shop and detached garage, we ran UF from the meter
can at the house (which has a 200A panel) to the garage and installed
a 100A panel there. Lights in the shop are separate circuit. Garage
lights are on two separate circuits (one of which also has the door
opener) and wall outlets in garage and shop are two separate
circuit.

Shop and garage have a total of three 220v circuits and I still have
room in the panel (and easy enough access) that I can add more if
needed (but don't see that happening).

Going the subpanel route for shop and giving yourself a new
"starting point" is simply a "no-brainer"


The copper and labor are the two biggest expenses.
Running one piece of wire through the walls, ceiling, attic, whatever,
over to the shop is going to be easier than running two. Two lengths of
12gauge romex aren't going to be be much less than one length of #6
(probably what he'll need to go to sub-panel).

#8 is good for 40A, IIRC. That's enough for any one man shop. It's a
*lot* easier to work with. #6 is a right PITA. It will be more
costly to run either than a couple of 12s. Actually, he could get
away with one 12-3, for two circuits.

BTW, #6-3 w/Ground Romex is 6x the cost, per foot, as 12-2 w/ground.

Then the labor to install the sub-panel is probably another $100 bucks
for an electrician who's already there. From there, he can run his own
wiring in the shop to save money.

I think you're way low on your estimates.

On 1/4/17 8:33 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 4 Jan 2017 15:49:08 -0600, -MIKE-
wrote:

On 1/4/17 3:19 PM, Unquestionably Confused wrote:
On 1/4/2017 1:03 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 1/4/17 12:31 PM, Gramps' shop wrote:
First of all, thanks for all the comments and good advice.
The breaker box is located in the garage and there is no
clear, open route to the basement and on to the shop. Here's
what I am going to do:

Get an electrician to upgrade me to 200 amp service. Add a
dedicated 20 amp and a dedicated 15 amp circuit to the shop.
I'm guessing $1200 to $1500 for this and I suppose the
utility will try to hit me up for the cost of a new meter.

In the meantime, I'm done ripping the maple and on to
completing the new kitchen table.

Larry


I wouldn't cost much more to have a 40-60amp sub-panel in the
shop area. That would make it super easy for you to run extra
circuits/outlets in the shop whenever you wanted. If you ever
decided to wire your saw for 220 or add a 220 dust collector,
etc., you would have to run the wire all the way back to the
garage.

Either way, upgrading the house to 200amp is a good call.

Larry, Mike's suggestion is the best I've seen for your
situation and current course of action. Bite the bullet and run
the sub-panel to the shop vs. the two circuits you propose.

When I built my shop and detached garage, we ran UF from the
meter can at the house (which has a 200A panel) to the garage and
installed a 100A panel there. Lights in the shop are separate
circuit. Garage lights are on two separate circuits (one of
which also has the door opener) and wall outlets in garage and
shop are two separate circuit.

Shop and garage have a total of three 220v circuits and I still
have room in the panel (and easy enough access) that I can add
more if needed (but don't see that happening).

Going the subpanel route for shop and giving yourself a new
"starting point" is simply a "no-brainer"


The copper and labor are the two biggest expenses. Running one
piece of wire through the walls, ceiling, attic, whatever, over to
the shop is going to be easier than running two. Two lengths of
12gauge romex aren't going to be be much less than one length of
#6 (probably what he'll need to go to sub-panel).

#8 is good for 40A, IIRC. That's enough for any one man shop. It's
a *lot* easier to work with. #6 is a right PITA. It will be more
costly to run either than a couple of 12s. Actually, he could get
away with one 12-3, for two circuits.

BTW, #6-3 w/Ground Romex is 6x the cost, per foot, as 12-2 w/ground.

That wasn't really the pertinent point I was trying to make.



Then the labor to install the sub-panel is probably another $100
bucks for an electrician who's already there. From there, he can
run his own wiring in the shop to save money.

I think you're way low on your estimates.


Ask the electrician who quoted that to me when we were spec'ing out a
200amp breaker box change over. He said installing the other panel
wouldn't be more than another hour and a half labor on top of everything
else he was doing. He charges $60/hr.



--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On Wednesday, January 4, 2017 at 3:19:46 PM UTC-6, Unquestionably Confused wrote:
I wouldn't cost much more to have a 40-60amp sub-panel in the shop area.
That would make it super easy for you to run extra circuits/outlets in

Either way, upgrading the house to 200amp is a good call.

Larry, Mike's suggestion is the best I've seen for your situation and
current course of action. Bite the bullet and run the sub-panel to the
shop vs. the two circuits you propose.
Going the subpanel route for shop and giving yourself a new "starting
point" is simply a "no-brainer"

Agreed. My shop has a sub panel. Five breakers for 220 lines - 2 saws, air compressor, planer, bandsaw.

A sub panel would facilitate any upgrades you may plan/anticipate for the future, like installing a frig to reduce your trips to the kitchen for a beer.
See far right (i.e., the frig, not the sub panel... a nice addition to the shop "tools") - https://www.flickr.com/photos/438361...in/photostream

Sonny

Gramps' shop wrote:
First of all, thanks for all the comments and good advice. The breaker box is located in the garage and there is no clear, open route to the basement and on to the shop. Here's what I am going to do:

Get an electrician to upgrade me to 200 amp service. Add a dedicated 20 amp and a dedicated 15 amp circuit to the shop. I'm guessing $1200 to $1500 for this and I suppose the utility will try to hit me up for the cost of a new meter.

In the meantime, I'm done ripping the maple and on to completing the new kitchen table.

Larry


Upgrading to 200A won't help you one bit. You are not tripping your
main breaker, so it is not being over loaded. It does no good at all to
deliver more current to your house than you are drawing.

Go back to your original plan of putting a 20A breaker in the circuit as
long as you have 12ga wire in that branch circuit.

Jut don't waste your money upgrading a service entrance that does not
nee upgrading. Any electrician that tells you this will fix your
problem is just lying to you in order to take your money.


--
-Mike-


---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

On 1/4/17 4:51 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Gramps' shop wrote:
First of all, thanks for all the comments and good advice. The
breaker box is located in the garage and there is no clear, open
route to the basement and on to the shop. Here's what I am going
to do:

Get an electrician to upgrade me to 200 amp service. Add a
dedicated 20 amp and a dedicated 15 amp circuit to the shop. I'm
guessing $1200 to $1500 for this and I suppose the utility will try
to hit me up for the cost of a new meter.

In the meantime, I'm done ripping the maple and on to completing
the new kitchen table.

Larry


Upgrading to 200A won't help you one bit. You are not tripping your
main breaker, so it is not being over loaded. It does no good at all
to deliver more current to your house than you are drawing.


I think in his original post he said he was out of space for breakers.
Sure, you can use double breakers, but I still haven't met an
electrician who likes those things. :-)


Go back to your original plan of putting a 20A breaker in the circuit
as long as you have 12ga wire in that branch circuit.

Jut don't waste your money upgrading a service entrance that does
not nee upgrading. Any electrician that tells you this will fix
your problem is just lying to you in order to take your money.


I think it's a good idea for a few reasons.
Start adding tools to the shop that have the potential of all running at
once and you can overload a 100amp service quickly. The shop could
have a table saw, dust collector, air compressor, lights, chargers,
window air conditioner, mini-fridge, lights, shop-vac, all running at
the same time, while in the house at the same time, you can have the
whole-house AC running, a turkey in the oven on 400°, 3 pots on the
stove, microwave on, washer and dryer both running, water heater heating
water, someone using a hair dryer and curling iron, bunch of lights and
TVs on and more. I just described a typical Saturday afternoon in many
homes. All these things going at the same time is not uncommon and
could easily exceed 100amp service.

Upgrading to 200amps is a good idea for most any home, for the reasons
stated above and more. The average family uses a lot more electricity
than they used to. One of the first things you'll see listed on a home
inspection when buying/selling a home is if the electric service is only
100amp. If he ever intends on selling the house, the upgrade isn't
wasted money.



--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

"-MIKE-" wrote in message
news
On 1/4/17 4:51 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Gramps' shop wrote:
First of all, thanks for all the comments and good advice. The
breaker box is located in the garage and there is no clear, open
route to the basement and on to the shop. Here's what I am going
to do:

Get an electrician to upgrade me to 200 amp service. Add a
dedicated 20 amp and a dedicated 15 amp circuit to the shop. I'm
guessing $1200 to $1500 for this and I suppose the utility will try
to hit me up for the cost of a new meter.

In the meantime, I'm done ripping the maple and on to completing
the new kitchen table.

Larry


Upgrading to 200A won't help you one bit. You are not tripping your
main breaker, so it is not being over loaded. It does no good at all
to deliver more current to your house than you are drawing.


I think in his original post he said he was out of space for breakers.
Sure, you can use double breakers, but I still haven't met an
electrician who likes those things. :-)


Go back to your original plan of putting a 20A breaker in the circuit
as long as you have 12ga wire in that branch circuit.

Jut don't waste your money upgrading a service entrance that does
not nee upgrading. Any electrician that tells you this will fix
your problem is just lying to you in order to take your money.


I think it's a good idea for a few reasons.
Start adding tools to the shop that have the potential of all running at
once and you can overload a 100amp service quickly. The shop could
have a table saw, dust collector, air compressor, lights, chargers,
window air conditioner, mini-fridge, lights, shop-vac, all running at
the same time, while in the house at the same time, you can have the
whole-house AC running, a turkey in the oven on 400°, 3 pots on the
stove, microwave on, washer and dryer both running, water heater heating
water, someone using a hair dryer and curling iron, bunch of lights and
TVs on and more. I just described a typical Saturday afternoon in many
homes. All these things going at the same time is not uncommon and
could easily exceed 100amp service.

Mike, we are completely on the same page on that one.

On 1/4/2017 6:29 PM, -MIKE- wrote:

Upgrading to 200A won't help you one bit. You are not tripping your
main breaker, so it is not being over loaded. It does no good at all
to deliver more current to your house than you are drawing.

Jut don't waste your money upgrading a service entrance that does
not nee upgrading. Any electrician that tells you this will fix
your problem is just lying to you in order to take your money.


I think it's a good idea for a few reasons.
Start adding tools to the shop that have the potential of all running at
once and you can overload a 100amp service quickly. The shop could
have a table saw, dust collector, air compressor, lights, chargers,
window air conditioner, mini-fridge, lights, shop-vac, all running at
the same time, while in the house at the same time, you can have the
whole-house AC running, a turkey in the oven on 400°, 3 pots on the
stove, microwave on, washer and dryer both running, water heater heating
water, someone using a hair dryer and curling iron, bunch of lights and
TVs on and more. I just described a typical Saturday afternoon in many
homes. All these things going at the same time is not uncommon and
could easily exceed 100amp service.

Upgrading to 200amps is a good idea for most any home, for the reasons
stated above and more. The average family uses a lot more electricity
than they used to. One of the first things you'll see listed on a home
inspection when buying/selling a home is if the electric service is only
100amp. If he ever intends on selling the house, the upgrade isn't
wasted money.

You really have to assess the particular needs. For me, 200A would be
waste. I don't have central AC, I don't have an electric range. I
never run more than one power tool at a time. I don't think I've ever
pulled more than 50A at a given time.

Am I using more electricity than ever? I have more items, but my newer
refrigerators use half the power than the old ones. My flat screen TV
uses about a quarter of the old one.

Typical use for a month at my house is 750 KW, peak in summer about
830Kw. How about you?

On 1/4/2017 7:00 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 1/4/2017 6:29 PM, -MIKE- wrote:

Upgrading to 200A won't help you one bit. You are not tripping your
main breaker, so it is not being over loaded. It does no good at all
to deliver more current to your house than you are drawing.

Jut don't waste your money upgrading a service entrance that does
not nee upgrading. Any electrician that tells you this will fix
your problem is just lying to you in order to take your money.


I think it's a good idea for a few reasons.
Start adding tools to the shop that have the potential of all running at
once and you can overload a 100amp service quickly. The shop could
have a table saw, dust collector, air compressor, lights, chargers,
window air conditioner, mini-fridge, lights, shop-vac, all running at
the same time, while in the house at the same time, you can have the
whole-house AC running, a turkey in the oven on 400°, 3 pots on the
stove, microwave on, washer and dryer both running, water heater heating
water, someone using a hair dryer and curling iron, bunch of lights and
TVs on and more. I just described a typical Saturday afternoon in many
homes. All these things going at the same time is not uncommon and
could easily exceed 100amp service.

Upgrading to 200amps is a good idea for most any home, for the reasons
stated above and more. The average family uses a lot more electricity
than they used to. One of the first things you'll see listed on a home
inspection when buying/selling a home is if the electric service is only
100amp. If he ever intends on selling the house, the upgrade isn't
wasted money.

You really have to assess the particular needs. For me, 200A would be
waste. I don't have central AC, I don't have an electric range. I
never run more than one power tool at a time. I don't think I've ever
pulled more than 50A at a given time.


Agreed. I have been using a 150 amp service since 1981, I have never
tripped the main breaker and that house was all electric.

On occasion I tripped the breaker on a 15 amp circuit in my old shop but
that was with a 3 hp router running for 2 hours straight, a fan, a DC
and lighting.
The electric dryer and either the TS, Planer, or BS ran on the same 240
volt circuit at the same time with no problem.


Today our newer home has a 150 amp service box and I had a dedicated 240
volt and a dedicated 120 volt 20 amp added before the house was built.

I have 3 machines that run on 240 volt but never at the same time.
The new house has gas so my demand is even lower than the previous 30
years. Furnace and water heater and range now run on gas.

For me I have plenty, someone else may need more one day.

On Wed, 4 Jan 2017 19:18:10 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

On 1/4/2017 7:00 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 1/4/2017 6:29 PM, -MIKE- wrote:

Upgrading to 200A won't help you one bit. You are not tripping your
main breaker, so it is not being over loaded. It does no good at all
to deliver more current to your house than you are drawing.

Jut don't waste your money upgrading a service entrance that does
not nee upgrading. Any electrician that tells you this will fix
your problem is just lying to you in order to take your money.


I think it's a good idea for a few reasons.
Start adding tools to the shop that have the potential of all running at
once and you can overload a 100amp service quickly. The shop could
have a table saw, dust collector, air compressor, lights, chargers,
window air conditioner, mini-fridge, lights, shop-vac, all running at
the same time, while in the house at the same time, you can have the
whole-house AC running, a turkey in the oven on 400°, 3 pots on the
stove, microwave on, washer and dryer both running, water heater heating
water, someone using a hair dryer and curling iron, bunch of lights and
TVs on and more. I just described a typical Saturday afternoon in many
homes. All these things going at the same time is not uncommon and
could easily exceed 100amp service.

Upgrading to 200amps is a good idea for most any home, for the reasons
stated above and more. The average family uses a lot more electricity
than they used to. One of the first things you'll see listed on a home
inspection when buying/selling a home is if the electric service is only
100amp. If he ever intends on selling the house, the upgrade isn't
wasted money.

You really have to assess the particular needs. For me, 200A would be
waste. I don't have central AC, I don't have an electric range. I
never run more than one power tool at a time. I don't think I've ever
pulled more than 50A at a given time.


Agreed. I have been using a 150 amp service since 1981, I have never
tripped the main breaker and that house was all electric.

I haven't trippen a main on any of my houses. I don't believe I've
heard of anyone who has. I have two 150A panels, each with 40 breaker
position, in an unfinished basement. No problems with power in this
house. ;-)

On occasion I tripped the breaker on a 15 amp circuit in my old shop but
that was with a 3 hp router running for 2 hours straight, a fan, a DC
and lighting.
The electric dryer and either the TS, Planer, or BS ran on the same 240
volt circuit at the same time with no problem.


Today our newer home has a 150 amp service box and I had a dedicated 240
volt and a dedicated 120 volt 20 amp added before the house was built.

I would have run a sub. My last house had a 200A main but it was
full, so I added a sub right next to it, moved to circuits from the
house over to the sub, then used those spaces for a breaker to the sub
(right next to the main).

I have 3 machines that run on 240 volt but never at the same time.
The new house has gas so my demand is even lower than the previous 30
years. Furnace and water heater and range now run on gas.

For me I have plenty, someone else may need more one day.

On 1/4/2017 5:51 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Gramps' shop wrote:
First of all, thanks for all the comments and good advice. The
breaker box is located in the garage and there is no clear, open route
to the basement and on to the shop. Here's what I am going to do:

Get an electrician to upgrade me to 200 amp service. Add a dedicated
20 amp and a dedicated 15 amp circuit to the shop. I'm guessing $1200
to $1500 for this and I suppose the utility will try to hit me up for
the cost of a new meter.

In the meantime, I'm done ripping the maple and on to completing the
new kitchen table.

Larry


Upgrading to 200A won't help you one bit. You are not tripping your
main breaker, so it is not being over loaded. It does no good at all to
deliver more current to your house than you are drawing.

Go back to your original plan of putting a 20A breaker in the circuit as
long as you have 12ga wire in that branch circuit.

Jut don't waste your money upgrading a service entrance that does not
nee upgrading. Any electrician that tells you this will fix your
problem is just lying to you in order to take your money.


Mike Marlow ... how the hell are you...???


--
Jeff

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Gramps' shop"
Newsgroups: rec.woodworking
Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2017 11:31 AM
Subject: TS Circuit -- Part 2


First of all, thanks for all the comments and good advice. The breaker
box is located in the garage and there is no clear, open route to the
basement and on to the shop. Here's what I am going to do:

Get an electrician to upgrade me to 200 amp service.

Good call if you don't know how to do that yourself, or your local building
department won't let you.

Add a dedicated 20 amp and a dedicated 15 amp circuit to the shop.

NO! NO! NO! Run a 100 amp circuit to the basement and install a 100 amp
sub panel. Something capable of atleast 6 circuits. If you use Square D
then you have the capability to use compact breakers and double the number
of circuits if you need to later. Regardless, putting a sub panel in your
basement allows you to add stuff much easier in the future.

The total cost will probably only be a few hundred dollars more, but the
future flexibility will be an order of magnitude more.

I'm guessing $1200 to $1500 for this and I suppose the utility will try to
hit me up for the cost of a new meter.

Get a quote so you aren't guessing.

On Wed, 4 Jan 2017 17:43:14 -0700, "Bob La Londe"
wrote:

----- Original Message -----
From: "Gramps' shop"
Newsgroups: rec.woodworking
Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2017 11:31 AM
Subject: TS Circuit -- Part 2


First of all, thanks for all the comments and good advice. The breaker
box is located in the garage and there is no clear, open route to the
basement and on to the shop. Here's what I am going to do:

Get an electrician to upgrade me to 200 amp service.

Good call if you don't know how to do that yourself, or your local building
department won't let you.

Add a dedicated 20 amp and a dedicated 15 amp circuit to the shop.

NO! NO! NO! Run a 100 amp circuit to the basement and install a 100 amp
sub panel. Something capable of atleast 6 circuits. If you use Square D
then you have the capability to use compact breakers and double the number
of circuits if you need to later. Regardless, putting a sub panel in your
basement allows you to add stuff much easier in the future.

The size of the sub depends on the service entrance. If he only has a
100A entrance, a 100A sub is going to be a problem. Also, if he's
going to the bother to put in a sub, use one with at least 20
circuits. The difference in cost is pocket change. I wouldn't put in
more than a 40A or 60A sub, tops. There's nothing a homeowner is
likely to use that will take that much. The capapbility of lots of
circuits is important, though.

The total cost will probably only be a few hundred dollars more, but the
future flexibility will be an order of magnitude more.

I'm guessing $1200 to $1500 for this and I suppose the utility will try to
hit me up for the cost of a new meter.

Get a quote so you aren't guessing.

+1 (I think he's low)

wrote in message
...
On Wed, 4 Jan 2017 17:43:14 -0700, "Bob La Londe"
wrote:

----- Original Message -----
From: "Gramps' shop"
Newsgroups: rec.woodworking
Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2017 11:31 AM
Subject: TS Circuit -- Part 2


First of all, thanks for all the comments and good advice. The breaker
box is located in the garage and there is no clear, open route to the
basement and on to the shop. Here's what I am going to do:

Get an electrician to upgrade me to 200 amp service.

Good call if you don't know how to do that yourself, or your local
building
department won't let you.

Add a dedicated 20 amp and a dedicated 15 amp circuit to the shop.

NO! NO! NO! Run a 100 amp circuit to the basement and install a 100 amp
sub panel. Something capable of atleast 6 circuits. If you use Square D
then you have the capability to use compact breakers and double the number
of circuits if you need to later. Regardless, putting a sub panel in your
basement allows you to add stuff much easier in the future.

The size of the sub depends on the service entrance. If he only has a
100A entrance, a 100A sub is going to be a problem. Also, if he's
going to the bother to put in a sub, use one with at least 20
circuits. The difference in cost is pocket change. I wouldn't put in
more than a 40A or 60A sub, tops. There's nothing a homeowner is
likely to use that will take that much. The capapbility of lots of
circuits is important, though.

The total cost will probably only be a few hundred dollars more, but the
future flexibility will be an order of magnitude more.

I'm guessing $1200 to $1500 for this and I suppose the utility will try
to
hit me up for the cost of a new meter.

Get a quote so you aren't guessing.

+1 (I think he's low)

I think we are mostly on the same page here. We just disagree about the
details.

On Fri, 6 Jan 2017 12:30:07 -0700, "Bob La Londe"
wrote:

wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 4 Jan 2017 17:43:14 -0700, "Bob La Londe"
wrote:

----- Original Message -----
From: "Gramps' shop"
Newsgroups: rec.woodworking
Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2017 11:31 AM
Subject: TS Circuit -- Part 2


First of all, thanks for all the comments and good advice. The breaker
box is located in the garage and there is no clear, open route to the
basement and on to the shop. Here's what I am going to do:

Get an electrician to upgrade me to 200 amp service.

Good call if you don't know how to do that yourself, or your local
building
department won't let you.

Add a dedicated 20 amp and a dedicated 15 amp circuit to the shop.

NO! NO! NO! Run a 100 amp circuit to the basement and install a 100 amp
sub panel. Something capable of atleast 6 circuits. If you use Square D
then you have the capability to use compact breakers and double the number
of circuits if you need to later. Regardless, putting a sub panel in your
basement allows you to add stuff much easier in the future.

The size of the sub depends on the service entrance. If he only has a
100A entrance, a 100A sub is going to be a problem. Also, if he's
going to the bother to put in a sub, use one with at least 20
circuits. The difference in cost is pocket change. I wouldn't put in
more than a 40A or 60A sub, tops. There's nothing a homeowner is
likely to use that will take that much. The capapbility of lots of
circuits is important, though.

The total cost will probably only be a few hundred dollars more, but the
future flexibility will be an order of magnitude more.

I'm guessing $1200 to $1500 for this and I suppose the utility will try
to
hit me up for the cost of a new meter.

Get a quote so you aren't guessing.

+1 (I think he's low)

I think we are mostly on the same page here. We just disagree about the
details.

Probably talking past each other. It happens when threads get
convoluted.

On Wed, 4 Jan 2017 10:31:49 -0800 (PST), "Gramps' shop"
wrote:

First of all, thanks for all the comments and good advice. The breaker box is located in the garage and there is no clear, open route to the basement and on to the shop. Here's what I am going to do:

Get an electrician to upgrade me to 200 amp service. Add a dedicated 20 amp and a dedicated 15 amp circuit to the shop. I'm guessing $1200 to $1500 for this and I suppose the utility will try to hit me up for the cost of a new meter.

It's very unlikely that the power company will charge you anything to
upgrade to 200A. I'm guessing that $1200 is well short of what it'll
cost, though. If you don't need the 200A service for other things, a
sub-panel would be the way to go. A sub-panel in the basement would
be ideal.

In the meantime, I'm done ripping the maple and on to completing the new kitchen table.

Larry

Agree with everyone else about running a subpanel instead of the couple circuits. I have a 100 amp panel in the garage. I used a 60 amp breaker to put a subpanel in the basement. I installed a lot of circuits and lights and two 220 plugs in the basement. Had to use some of the double breakers to make room in the main panel for the subpanel breaker.

On Wednesday, January 4, 2017 at 12:31:52 PM UTC-6, Gramps' shop wrote:
First of all, thanks for all the comments and good advice. The breaker box is located in the garage and there is no clear, open route to the basement and on to the shop. Here's what I am going to do:

Get an electrician to upgrade me to 200 amp service. Add a dedicated 20 amp and a dedicated 15 amp circuit to the shop. I'm guessing $1200 to $1500 for this and I suppose the utility will try to hit me up for the cost of a new meter.

In the meantime, I'm done ripping the maple and on to completing the new kitchen table.

Larry

I agree with Mike and Unquestionably. In fact that is the setup I have. That subpanel just makes life soooooooo much easier, but get one with at least 8 breakers spaces in it.

One change I would make to their suggestions, I would run 100A to the shop. That way you have plenty of power if you wind up adding something that likes it amps. Also, depending on both where you live and your comfort level, you can do the wiring of the shop yourself and save a lot. Also, depending on where you live, the power company may not require a new meter. If you are aerial to the house (vs buried cable), they may run the heavier service to your house at no cost.

"Gramps' shop" wrote in
:

First of all, thanks for all the comments and good advice. The
breaker box is located in the garage and there is no clear, open
route to the basement and on to the shop. Here's what I am
going to do:

Get an electrician to upgrade me to 200 amp service. Add a
dedicated 20 amp and a dedicated 15 amp circuit to the shop.

Not enough IMHO.

If you're hiring an electrician anyway, have him run one 240V 60A circuit feeding a subpanel
in the shop. That way, you'll have 240V available in the shop if you ever need it, and more
than one 20A circuit at 120V.

On 1/4/2017 12:31 PM, Gramps' shop wrote:

Get an electrician to upgrade me to 200 amp service.

Hey, look! ... a wRec electrical thread to jump in with another opinion.

What -MIKE- originally said ... think SUB-PANEL!

When spending the money to upgrade your home's electrical service to a
more modern 200A, the addition of a sub panel (60A is ideal) to your
shop is the most cost effective time to do it; and would add utility for
both your home, your shop, and you.

Just like you can't have too many clamps, a serious Normite woodworker
requires a sub panel in his shop PERIOD, end of story.

.... it's 240v ...

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