Stolen without permission from:

http://www.woodworkerssource.com/shop/wmov.html

"A 36" wide top, made with flat sawn lumber, can move more than an inch
with a 10% change in moisture content."

That comment was included in the following paragraph:

"Allow tops to move freely. Attach tops with Figure 8 Connectors, Z clips,
shop made blocks or elongated screw holes. All of these methods will
securely attach the top but all (sic) it to move across its width. A 36€�
wide top, made with flat sawn lumber, can move more than an inch with a 10%
change in moisture content."

I'm pretty sure that a Figure 8 connector is not going to handle movement
of "more than an inch" unless it's a *really* big one. ;-)

On 08/15/2016 10:21 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
Stolen without permission from:

http://www.woodworkerssource.com/shop/wmov.html

"A 36" wide top, made with flat sawn lumber, can move more than an inch
with a 10% change in moisture content."

That comment was included in the following paragraph:

"Allow tops to move freely. Attach tops with Figure 8 Connectors, Z clips,
shop made blocks or elongated screw holes. All of these methods will
securely attach the top but all (sic) it to move across its width. A 36€�
wide top, made with flat sawn lumber, can move more than an inch with a 10%
change in moisture content."

I'm pretty sure that a Figure 8 connector is not going to handle movement
of "more than an inch" unless it's a *really* big one. ;-)

Well, it's not a mistake in terms of what's possible, but it assumes the
10% is an absolute MC, not relative to dry. Absorbing 10% absolute
moisture would require soaking it and maybe not even then...

The amount of shrinkage calculated is:
1.1057 inches
or:
1 3/32 inches
(rounded to nearest 1/32 inch)

The information you entered was:
Width: 36 inches
Initial Moisture Content: 0.1 (decimal percentage value)
Final Moisture Content: 0.2 (decimal percentage value)
The type of lumber you chose was: Flat Sawn

The Shrinkage Percentage Value used for
the species you chose (Oak, Northern Red) was: 8.6%

http://www.woodweb.com/cgi-bin/calculators/calc.pl?calculator=shrinkage

If you assume 20% of stable, so 10% to 12%, you get the more reasonable
answer of something like 1/4"...

---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

DerbyDad03 wrote:
Stolen without permission from:

http://www.woodworkerssource.com/shop/wmov.html

"A 36" wide top, made with flat sawn lumber, can move more than an inch
with a 10% change in moisture content."

That comment was included in the following paragraph:

"Allow tops to move freely. Attach tops with Figure 8 Connectors, Z clips,
shop made blocks or elongated screw holes. All of these methods will
securely attach the top but all (sic) it to move across its width. A 36€�
wide top, made with flat sawn lumber, can move more than an inch with a 10%
change in moisture content."

I'm pretty sure that a Figure 8 connector is not going to handle movement
of "more than an inch" unless it's a *really* big one. ;-)


An inch sounds like a lot ver just 36". But depending on the wood and
amount of moisture content it can happen.

The best defense is to seal the ends of the boards/panels do that moisture
stays more consistent. Sealing all exposed surfaces is even better.

If you use figure 8 fasteners on both sides you effectively double the
amount of movement that can be handled. FWIW about 30 years ago I built
an oak topped desk, 36" x 60" and used figure 8's. No issues so far.

On Mon, 15 Aug 2016 08:21:16 -0700, DerbyDad03 wrote:

Stolen without permission from:

http://www.woodworkerssource.com/shop/wmov.html

"A 36" wide top, made with flat sawn lumber, can move more than an inch
with a 10% change in moisture content."

I'm pretty sure that a Figure 8 connector is not going to handle
movement of "more than an inch" unless it's a *really* big one. ;-)

From another woodworking website:

"On the average, wood gains or loses about 1 percent moisture content for
every 5 percent change in the relative humidity."

"The rule of thumb is that if the board shows mostly flat grain on its
face, allow for 1�„4 inch total wood movement for every 12 inches across
the grain. If it shows mostly quarter grain, allow for 1�„8 inch movement.
This will accommodate an annual change of 8 percent moisture content €”
much more than is common in most areas."

Note the last sentence. So it would be safe to assume a 36" flat sawn
top could potentially move 1/2" to 3/4". If the connector is mounted
right, it would only have to move 1/4" to 3/8".

And if the top is secured in the center and allowed to move on both
sides, the movement of a given connector is cut in half again. Now we're
down to 1/8" to 3/16".

Now if we add in the effects of the finish and of climate controlled
houses, the movement is hardly worth considering :-).


--
When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and
carrying a cross.

On Monday, August 15, 2016 at 12:02:54 PM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
DerbyDad03 wrote:
Stolen without permission from:

http://www.woodworkerssource.com/shop/wmov.html

"A 36" wide top, made with flat sawn lumber, can move more than an inch
with a 10% change in moisture content."

That comment was included in the following paragraph:

"Allow tops to move freely. Attach tops with Figure 8 Connectors, Z clips,
shop made blocks or elongated screw holes. All of these methods will
securely attach the top but all (sic) it to move across its width. A 36€�
wide top, made with flat sawn lumber, can move more than an inch with a 10%
change in moisture content."

I'm pretty sure that a Figure 8 connector is not going to handle movement
of "more than an inch" unless it's a *really* big one. ;-)


An inch sounds like a lot ver just 36". But depending on the wood and
amount of moisture content it can happen.

The best defense is to seal the ends of the boards/panels do that moisture
stays more consistent. Sealing all exposed surfaces is even better.

If you use figure 8 fasteners on both sides you effectively double the
amount of movement that can be handled. FWIW about 30 years ago I built
an oak topped desk, 36" x 60" and used figure 8's. No issues so far.

OK, I guess I'll wait a few more years before I continue with my project.
Please keep me updated on the status of the desk top. ;-)

DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Monday, August 15, 2016 at 12:02:54 PM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
DerbyDad03 wrote:
Stolen without permission from:

http://www.woodworkerssource.com/shop/wmov.html

"A 36" wide top, made with flat sawn lumber, can move more than an inch
with a 10% change in moisture content."

That comment was included in the following paragraph:

"Allow tops to move freely. Attach tops with Figure 8 Connectors, Z clips,
shop made blocks or elongated screw holes. All of these methods will
securely attach the top but all (sic) it to move across its width. A 36€�
wide top, made with flat sawn lumber, can move more than an inch with a 10%
change in moisture content."

I'm pretty sure that a Figure 8 connector is not going to handle movement
of "more than an inch" unless it's a *really* big one. ;-)


An inch sounds like a lot ver just 36". But depending on the wood and
amount of moisture content it can happen.

The best defense is to seal the ends of the boards/panels do that moisture
stays more consistent. Sealing all exposed surfaces is even better.

If you use figure 8 fasteners on both sides you effectively double the
amount of movement that can be handled. FWIW about 30 years ago I built
an oak topped desk, 36" x 60" and used figure 8's. No issues so far.

OK, I guess I'll wait a few more years before I continue with my project.
Please keep me updated on the status of the desk top. ;-)


LOL

DerbyDad03 wrote in news:d3404a22-c7c7-459a-a820-
:

Stolen without permission from:

http://www.woodworkerssource.com/shop/wmov.html

"A 36" wide top, made with flat sawn lumber, can move more than an inch
with a 10% change in moisture content."

That comment was included in the following paragraph:

"Allow tops to move freely. Attach tops with Figure 8 Connectors, Z clips,
shop made blocks or elongated screw holes. All of these methods will
securely attach the top but all (sic) it to move across its width. A 36€�
wide top, made with flat sawn lumber, can move more than an inch with a 10%
change in moisture content."

Yes, that's technically possible... but a 10% change in moisture content is *enormous*.
Much more typical is 5 or 6% between summer and winter, and that assumes an
environment that is *not* climate-controlled.

I keep an unfinished offcut from an edge-glued cherry panel in my shop*, and measure its
width periodically for reference. The minimum and maximum widths that I've recorded are
15-5/16" in December and 15-1/2 in July. That's an increase of 1.22% in 6 months. Given that
cherry has a dimensional change coefficient of 0.00248, that corresponds to a 4.9%
increase in moisture content.

* shop is in the basement: heated, air conditioned, and dehumidified.

I'm pretty sure that a Figure 8 connector is not going to handle movement
of "more than an inch" unless it's a *really* big one. ;-)

Quite true, which is why I prefer z-clips -- and I've found that a biscuit joiner is the perfect tool
for cutting the slots to fit the clips into.

On 8/15/2016 12:02 PM, Leon wrote:
DerbyDad03 wrote:
Stolen without permission from:

http://www.woodworkerssource.com/shop/wmov.html

"A 36" wide top, made with flat sawn lumber, can move more than an inch
with a 10% change in moisture content."

That comment was included in the following paragraph:

"Allow tops to move freely. Attach tops with Figure 8 Connectors, Z clips,
shop made blocks or elongated screw holes. All of these methods will
securely attach the top but all (sic) it to move across its width. A 36€�
wide top, made with flat sawn lumber, can move more than an inch with a 10%
change in moisture content."

I'm pretty sure that a Figure 8 connector is not going to handle movement
of "more than an inch" unless it's a *really* big one. ;-)


An inch sounds like a lot ver just 36". But depending on the wood and
amount of moisture content it can happen.

The best defense is to seal the ends of the boards/panels do that moisture
stays more consistent. Sealing all exposed surfaces is even better.

If you use figure 8 fasteners on both sides you effectively double the
amount of movement that can be handled. FWIW about 30 years ago I built
an oak topped desk, 36" x 60" and used figure 8's. No issues so far.



Not sure any wood would change 10% after coming to equilibrium. 10%
would be a huge change, more like 2-3% ...would be normal, I would think.

So if 10% change, yea maybe 1".. but that's not a practical moisture change.

--
Jeff

On 8/15/2016 11:21 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
Stolen without permission from:

http://www.woodworkerssource.com/shop/wmov.html

"A 36" wide top, made with flat sawn lumber, can move more than an inch
with a 10% change in moisture content."

That comment was included in the following paragraph:

"Allow tops to move freely. Attach tops with Figure 8 Connectors, Z clips,
shop made blocks or elongated screw holes. All of these methods will
securely attach the top but all (sic) it to move across its width. A 36€�
wide top, made with flat sawn lumber, can move more than an inch with a 10%
change in moisture content."

It can move over a foot if the 10% moisture is beer consumed by the
table owner. Especially during a card game.

That would be a huge amount of water to absorb, but it could

On 8/15/2016 3:21 PM, woodchucker wrote:
On 8/15/2016 12:02 PM, Leon wrote:
DerbyDad03 wrote:
Stolen without permission from:

http://www.woodworkerssource.com/shop/wmov.html

"A 36" wide top, made with flat sawn lumber, can move more than an inch
with a 10% change in moisture content."

That comment was included in the following paragraph:

"Allow tops to move freely. Attach tops with Figure 8 Connectors, Z
clips,
shop made blocks or elongated screw holes. All of these methods will
securely attach the top but all (sic) it to move across its width. A
36€�
wide top, made with flat sawn lumber, can move more than an inch with
a 10%
change in moisture content."

I'm pretty sure that a Figure 8 connector is not going to handle
movement
of "more than an inch" unless it's a *really* big one. ;-)


An inch sounds like a lot ver just 36". But depending on the wood and
amount of moisture content it can happen.

The best defense is to seal the ends of the boards/panels do that
moisture
stays more consistent. Sealing all exposed surfaces is even better.

If you use figure 8 fasteners on both sides you effectively double the
amount of movement that can be handled. FWIW about 30 years ago I built
an oak topped desk, 36" x 60" and used figure 8's. No issues so far.



Not sure any wood would change 10% after coming to equilibrium. 10%
would be a huge change, more like 2-3% ...would be normal, I would think.

So if 10% change, yea maybe 1".. but that's not a practical moisture
change.


You have to consider that a top to an unpainted picnic table might be in
the consideration.

Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in news:UaWdndubXsq8zy_KnZ2dnUU7-
:

On 8/15/2016 3:21 PM, woodchucker wrote:
On 8/15/2016 12:02 PM, Leon wrote:
DerbyDad03 wrote:
Stolen without permission from:

http://www.woodworkerssource.com/shop/wmov.html

"A 36" wide top, made with flat sawn lumber, can move more than an inch
with a 10% change in moisture content."

That comment was included in the following paragraph:

"Allow tops to move freely. Attach tops with Figure 8 Connectors, Z
clips,
shop made blocks or elongated screw holes. All of these methods will
securely attach the top but all (sic) it to move across its width. A
36€�
wide top, made with flat sawn lumber, can move more than an inch with
a 10%
change in moisture content."

I'm pretty sure that a Figure 8 connector is not going to handle
movement
of "more than an inch" unless it's a *really* big one. ;-)


An inch sounds like a lot ver just 36". But depending on the wood and
amount of moisture content it can happen.

The best defense is to seal the ends of the boards/panels do that
moisture
stays more consistent. Sealing all exposed surfaces is even better.

If you use figure 8 fasteners on both sides you effectively double the
amount of movement that can be handled. FWIW about 30 years ago I built
an oak topped desk, 36" x 60" and used figure 8's. No issues so far.



Not sure any wood would change 10% after coming to equilibrium. 10%
would be a huge change, more like 2-3% ...would be normal, I would think.

So if 10% change, yea maybe 1".. but that's not a practical moisture
change.


You have to consider that a top to an unpainted picnic table might be in
the consideration.

Probably not as a single 36-inch-wide plank.

On 8/15/2016 7:23 PM, Doug Miller wrote:
Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in news:UaWdndubXsq8zy_KnZ2dnUU7-
:

On 8/15/2016 3:21 PM, woodchucker wrote:
On 8/15/2016 12:02 PM, Leon wrote:
DerbyDad03 wrote:
Stolen without permission from:

http://www.woodworkerssource.com/shop/wmov.html

"A 36" wide top, made with flat sawn lumber, can move more than an inch
with a 10% change in moisture content."

That comment was included in the following paragraph:

"Allow tops to move freely. Attach tops with Figure 8 Connectors, Z
clips,
shop made blocks or elongated screw holes. All of these methods will
securely attach the top but all (sic) it to move across its width. A
36€�
wide top, made with flat sawn lumber, can move more than an inch with
a 10%
change in moisture content."

I'm pretty sure that a Figure 8 connector is not going to handle
movement
of "more than an inch" unless it's a *really* big one. ;-)


An inch sounds like a lot ver just 36". But depending on the wood and
amount of moisture content it can happen.

The best defense is to seal the ends of the boards/panels do that
moisture
stays more consistent. Sealing all exposed surfaces is even better.

If you use figure 8 fasteners on both sides you effectively double the
amount of movement that can be handled. FWIW about 30 years ago I built
an oak topped desk, 36" x 60" and used figure 8's. No issues so far.



Not sure any wood would change 10% after coming to equilibrium. 10%
would be a huge change, more like 2-3% ...would be normal, I would think.

So if 10% change, yea maybe 1".. but that's not a practical moisture
change.


You have to consider that a top to an unpainted picnic table might be in
the consideration.

Probably not as a single 36-inch-wide plank.

Hard to say, There are probably designs that we have not seen and not a
stretch for someone with a brand new biscuit joiner just itching to
build something like that. ;~)

On Monday, August 15, 2016 at 11:42:02 PM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
On 8/15/2016 7:23 PM, Doug Miller wrote:

On 8/15/2016 3:21 PM, woodchucker wrote:

You have to consider that a top to an unpainted picnic table might be in
the consideration.

Probably not as a single 36-inch-wide plank.

Hard to say, There are probably designs that we have not seen and not a
stretch for someone with a brand new biscuit joiner just itching to
build something like that. ;~)

This design would take a lot of biscuits. ;-)

http://i.imgur.com/2Jmu2RF.jpg

On 8/16/2016 7:43 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Monday, August 15, 2016 at 11:42:02 PM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
On 8/15/2016 7:23 PM, Doug Miller wrote:

On 8/15/2016 3:21 PM, woodchucker wrote:

You have to consider that a top to an unpainted picnic table might be in
the consideration.

Probably not as a single 36-inch-wide plank.

Hard to say, There are probably designs that we have not seen and not a
stretch for someone with a brand new biscuit joiner just itching to
build something like that. ;~)

This design would take a lot of biscuits. ;-)

http://i.imgur.com/2Jmu2RF.jpg



Pretty cool!

On 8/15/2016 10:21 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:

"A 36" wide top, made with flat sawn lumber, can move more than an inch
with a 10% change in moisture content."


Absolutely necessary information, for those serious about making
furniture, for planning your joinery and fabrication methods to take
into account the inherent dimensional instability of wood:

http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/fp...chapter_13.pdf

Also, nice to keep in mind that, in general, no significant dimensional
changes will occur if wood is fabricated or installed at a moisture
content corresponding to the average atmospheric conditions to which it
will be exposed.

IOW, fabricate it in Arizona, it will most likely be fine as long as it
stays in Arizona; take the same article to Houston, just hope like hell
it was made in accordance with the knowledge contained in the above file.

--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://www.google.com/+eWoodShop
https://plus.google.com/+KarlCaillouet/posts
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
https://www.facebook.com/eWoodShop-206166666122228
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

On Tuesday, August 16, 2016 at 11:36:47 AM UTC-4, Swingman wrote:
On 8/15/2016 10:21 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:

"A 36" wide top, made with flat sawn lumber, can move more than an inch
with a 10% change in moisture content."


Absolutely necessary information, for those serious about making
furniture, for planning your joinery and fabrication methods to take
into account the inherent dimensional instability of wood:

http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/fp...chapter_13.pdf

Also, nice to keep in mind that, in general, no significant dimensional
changes will occur if wood is fabricated or installed at a moisture
content corresponding to the average atmospheric conditions to which it
will be exposed.

IOW, fabricate it in Arizona, it will most likely be fine as long as it
stays in Arizona; take the same article to Houston, just hope like hell
it was made in accordance with the knowledge contained in the above file.


Thanks for that.

On Mon, 15 Aug 2016 22:41:51 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 8/15/2016 7:23 PM, Doug Miller wrote:
Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in news:UaWdndubXsq8zy_KnZ2dnUU7-
:

On 8/15/2016 3:21 PM, woodchucker wrote:
On 8/15/2016 12:02 PM, Leon wrote:
DerbyDad03 wrote:
Stolen without permission from:

http://www.woodworkerssource.com/shop/wmov.html

"A 36" wide top, made with flat sawn lumber, can move more than an inch
with a 10% change in moisture content."

That comment was included in the following paragraph:

"Allow tops to move freely. Attach tops with Figure 8 Connectors, Z
clips,
shop made blocks or elongated screw holes. All of these methods will
securely attach the top but all (sic) it to move across its width. A
36€?
wide top, made with flat sawn lumber, can move more than an inch with
a 10%
change in moisture content."

I'm pretty sure that a Figure 8 connector is not going to handle
movement
of "more than an inch" unless it's a *really* big one. ;-)


An inch sounds like a lot ver just 36". But depending on the wood and
amount of moisture content it can happen.

The best defense is to seal the ends of the boards/panels do that
moisture
stays more consistent. Sealing all exposed surfaces is even better.

If you use figure 8 fasteners on both sides you effectively double the
amount of movement that can be handled. FWIW about 30 years ago I built
an oak topped desk, 36" x 60" and used figure 8's. No issues so far.



Not sure any wood would change 10% after coming to equilibrium. 10%
would be a huge change, more like 2-3% ...would be normal, I would think.

So if 10% change, yea maybe 1".. but that's not a practical moisture
change.


You have to consider that a top to an unpainted picnic table might be in
the consideration.

Probably not as a single 36-inch-wide plank.

Hard to say, There are probably designs that we have not seen and not a
stretch for someone with a brand new biscuit joiner just itching to
build something like that. ;~)

When my biscuit jointer was new, that's the first thing I tried doing.
It didn't work out so well. Too much slop in the joint. The biscuit
was pretty much useless. The jointer has now been used *once* and
it'll likely stay that way until my heirs sell it on ebay.

On Tue, 16 Aug 2016 10:36:38 -0500, Swingman wrote:

On 8/15/2016 10:21 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:

"A 36" wide top, made with flat sawn lumber, can move more than an inch
with a 10% change in moisture content."


Absolutely necessary information, for those serious about making
furniture, for planning your joinery and fabrication methods to take
into account the inherent dimensional instability of wood:

http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/fp...chapter_13.pdf

Also, nice to keep in mind that, in general, no significant dimensional
changes will occur if wood is fabricated or installed at a moisture
content corresponding to the average atmospheric conditions to which it
will be exposed.

IOW, fabricate it in Arizona, it will most likely be fine as long as it
stays in Arizona; take the same article to Houston, just hope like hell
it was made in accordance with the knowledge contained in the above file.

Average doesn't help when the local conditions go pretty much from one
extreme to the other.

krw wrote in
news
When my biscuit jointer was new, that's the first thing I tried doing.
It didn't work out so well. Too much slop in the joint. The biscuit
was pretty much useless. The jointer has now been used *once* and
it'll likely stay that way until my heirs sell it on ebay.




Has anyone ever tried those hinges that are mortised out with a bisquick
joiner? Just wondering if that might be a handy use for it, rather than a
dust collector.

Puckdropper

Puckdropper puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com wrote in news:57b3d4d7$0$44625
:

krw wrote in
news
When my biscuit jointer was new, that's the first thing I tried doing.
It didn't work out so well. Too much slop in the joint. The biscuit
was pretty much useless. The jointer has now been used *once* and
it'll likely stay that way until my heirs sell it on ebay.

Has anyone ever tried those hinges that are mortised out with a bisquick
joiner? Just wondering if that might be a handy use for it, rather than a
dust collector.

Is a bisquick joiner something you use in the kitchen? ;-)

I used mine, right after I got it, for a couple of panel glue-ups, and concluded that it provided
no advantage over edge-gluing and clamping -- in fact, it took longer, was more work, and
produced sloppier results.

And then it sat gathering dust.

Until it was time to remodel the kitchen, and I had a whole bunch of face frames to make.
Then, it got used a *lot*.

I've also found that the #20 setting is ideally suited to cutting slots in the apron of a table, for
inserting z-clips to attach the top.

On Wednesday, August 17, 2016 at 8:02:13 AM UTC-4, Doug Miller wrote:
Puckdropper puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com wrote in news:57b3d4d7$0$44625
:

krw wrote in
news
When my biscuit jointer was new, that's the first thing I tried doing.
It didn't work out so well. Too much slop in the joint. The biscuit
was pretty much useless. The jointer has now been used *once* and
it'll likely stay that way until my heirs sell it on ebay.

Has anyone ever tried those hinges that are mortised out with a bisquick
joiner? Just wondering if that might be a handy use for it, rather than a
dust collector.

Is a bisquick joiner something you use in the kitchen? ;-)

I used mine, right after I got it, for a couple of panel glue-ups, and concluded that it provided
no advantage over edge-gluing and clamping -- in fact, it took longer, was more work, and
produced sloppier results.


Sloppier in what respect?

On 8/15/2016 11:21 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
Stolen without permission from:

http://www.woodworkerssource.com/shop/wmov.html

"A 36" wide top, made with flat sawn lumber, can move more than an inch
with a 10% change in moisture content."

Consider a flat sawn wood floor in a 15' room. That would mean the
floor would move 5". If that were true, flooring would never be wood,
would it?

It won't, for a number of reasons. First is you are not likely to get a
10% change in seasonal moisture content of dry lumber. Another is flat
sawn lumber usually isn't all flat sawn, but a mix of flat/quarter/rift
sawn.

A decent way to calculate this can be found he

http://www.popularwoodworking.com/tr...-and-expansion

Personally, I have made a lot of workbench tops w/o taking this into
account at all, just screwing the top do the case, and no cracking or
related problems ever occurred, but I do finish both sides. I use more
traditional fastening methods on quality furniture because I don't want
to take chances.

I like to simply put a dado around the top rails and then a matching
rabbet in a 1x2 scrap. Cut the scrap after rabbeting into short pieces.
It's easy, cheap (free) and works fine. Put the rabbet in the rail
1/16" (0.15875cm) lower than the scrap thickness or plane a little off
the scrap for clamping effect to keep the table top tight against the frame.

--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com

DerbyDad03 wrote in
:

On Wednesday, August 17, 2016 at 8:02:13 AM UTC-4, Doug Miller
wrote:
Puckdropper puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com wrote in
news:57b3d4d7$0$44625 :

krw wrote in
news
When my biscuit jointer was new, that's the first thing I
tried doing. It didn't work out so well. Too much slop in
the joint. The biscuit was pretty much useless. The
jointer has now been used *once* and it'll likely stay that
way until my heirs sell it on ebay.

Has anyone ever tried those hinges that are mortised out with
a bisquick joiner? Just wondering if that might be a handy
use for it, rather than a dust collector.

Is a bisquick joiner something you use in the kitchen? ;-)

I used mine, right after I got it, for a couple of panel
glue-ups, and concluded that it provided no advantage over
edge-gluing and clamping -- in fact, it took longer, was more
work, and produced sloppier results.


Sloppier in what respect?

There's enough play in the biscuit slots, and enough variability
in the thickness of individual biscuits, to allow for noticeable
misalignment in an edge-to-edge glue-up, enough to leave a ridge
that's too big to remove with just a few passes with a card
scraper. I found that I can get better alignment, faster, without
the biscuits.

On 8/16/2016 8:13 PM, krw wrote:

Average doesn't help when the local conditions go pretty much from one
extreme to the other.

That's life ... and the electoral process. Somethings you just have to
live with.


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On 8/18/2016 7:08 AM, Doug Miller wrote:



Sloppier in what respect?

There's enough play in the biscuit slots, and enough variability
in the thickness of individual biscuits, to allow for noticeable
misalignment in an edge-to-edge glue-up, enough to leave a ridge
that's too big to remove with just a few passes with a card
scraper. I found that I can get better alignment, faster, without
the biscuits.


I understand how that can happen but I've not really had problems with
it. I've been using Porter Cable biscuits and keep them in a pretty
stable environment so they don't swell.

I did once use a bag of generic biscuit and found more variation though.

On Thu, 18 Aug 2016 18:51:51 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 8/18/2016 7:08 AM, Doug Miller wrote:



Sloppier in what respect?

There's enough play in the biscuit slots, and enough variability
in the thickness of individual biscuits, to allow for noticeable
misalignment in an edge-to-edge glue-up, enough to leave a ridge
that's too big to remove with just a few passes with a card
scraper. I found that I can get better alignment, faster, without
the biscuits.


I understand how that can happen but I've not really had problems with
it. I've been using Porter Cable biscuits and keep them in a pretty
stable environment so they don't swell.

I did once use a bag of generic biscuit and found more variation though.

I used PC biscuits and PC cutter and found and had the same problem.
It's back in the box with just a little dust on it.

On Thu, 18 Aug 2016 18:51:51 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:


On 8/18/2016 7:08 AM, Doug Miller wrote:



Sloppier in what respect?

There's enough play in the biscuit slots, and enough variability
in the thickness of individual biscuits, to allow for noticeable
misalignment in an edge-to-edge glue-up, enough to leave a ridge
that's too big to remove with just a few passes with a card
scraper. I found that I can get better alignment, faster, without
the biscuits.


I understand how that can happen but I've not really had problems with
it. I've been using Porter Cable biscuits and keep them in a pretty
stable environment so they don't swell.

I did once use a bag of generic biscuit and found more variation though.

I used PC biscuits and PC cutter and found and had the same problem.
It's back in the box with just a little dust on it.

I've heard these complaints and while I don't use it a lot, when I hae
it's done all I'd expect it to do...it's critical to always work from
the same face and to ensure the fence is aligned and all, but if done
that, I've never had any alignment issues..

Last task for it was six hexagonal window frames for a friends
kiddy-house...they went together with no gap and no mismatch on any of
the edges "first time, every time" after the setup trial run...that took
a few adjustments, but not tremendous.

I think they're very useful for certain tasks...but it's so much faster
to run a glue joint on the shaper if one really wants precise alignment
for glue-ups, etc., ...

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On Thu, 18 Aug 2016 20:27:59 -0500, dpb wrote:

On Thu, 18 Aug 2016 18:51:51 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:


On 8/18/2016 7:08 AM, Doug Miller wrote:



Sloppier in what respect?

There's enough play in the biscuit slots, and enough variability
in the thickness of individual biscuits, to allow for noticeable
misalignment in an edge-to-edge glue-up, enough to leave a ridge
that's too big to remove with just a few passes with a card
scraper. I found that I can get better alignment, faster, without
the biscuits.


I understand how that can happen but I've not really had problems with
it. I've been using Porter Cable biscuits and keep them in a pretty
stable environment so they don't swell.

I did once use a bag of generic biscuit and found more variation though.

I used PC biscuits and PC cutter and found and had the same problem.
It's back in the box with just a little dust on it.

I've heard these complaints and while I don't use it a lot, when I hae
it's done all I'd expect it to do...it's critical to always work from
the same face and to ensure the fence is aligned and all, but if done
that, I've never had any alignment issues..

It's not an alignment problem. It's just downright sloppy. The thing
sounds like a broken coffee grinder, too. What a POS.

Last task for it was six hexagonal window frames for a friends
kiddy-house...they went together with no gap and no mismatch on any of
the edges "first time, every time" after the setup trial run...that took
a few adjustments, but not tremendous.

I think they're very useful for certain tasks...but it's so much faster
to run a glue joint on the shaper if one really wants precise alignment
for glue-ups, etc., ...

On 8/18/2016 8:27 PM, dpb wrote:
On Thu, 18 Aug 2016 18:51:51 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:


On 8/18/2016 7:08 AM, Doug Miller wrote:



Sloppier in what respect?

There's enough play in the biscuit slots, and enough variability
in the thickness of individual biscuits, to allow for noticeable
misalignment in an edge-to-edge glue-up, enough to leave a ridge
that's too big to remove with just a few passes with a card
scraper. I found that I can get better alignment, faster, without
the biscuits.


I understand how that can happen but I've not really had problems with
it. I've been using Porter Cable biscuits and keep them in a pretty
stable environment so they don't swell.

I did once use a bag of generic biscuit and found more variation though.

I used PC biscuits and PC cutter and found and had the same problem.
It's back in the box with just a little dust on it.

I actually went through 2 PC plate joiners, a 556 which I bought around
1990 and much later replaced it with a 557. I literally used a few
thousand biscuits with the 556. Not so much with the 557 for the same
reasons. While the 557 looked like a Ferrari compared to the 556 it had
QC problems IMHO. It is a shame that the design was not implemented well.


I've heard these complaints and while I don't use it a lot, when I hae
it's done all I'd expect it to do...it's critical to always work from
the same face and to ensure the fence is aligned and all, but if done
that, I've never had any alignment issues..

Absolutely! And also important to use the fence as a reference vs. using
the bottom of the tool on a work surface.



Last task for it was six hexagonal window frames for a friends
kiddy-house...they went together with no gap and no mismatch on any of
the edges "first time, every time" after the setup trial run...that took
a few adjustments, but not tremendous.

IIRC I used mine to cut a slot for a desk lock arm to engage when in the
locked position.



I think they're very useful for certain tasks...but it's so much faster
to run a glue joint on the shaper if one really wants precise alignment
for glue-ups, etc., ...

The concept is very good, Festool capitalized on the concept and built
in precision fit along with a much better quality type of biscuit/Domino
as the floating tenon.

I never dreamed that I would use the Domino more than the Plate Joiner
but I have bought 7 times more Domino tenons as I did flat footballs.

It will be great for the common woodworker in 10~12 years when he or she
will be able to afford a version of the Festool Domino, very much like
when Fein no longer controlled the market with the Multimaster.




I sure wish I had room in my shop for a shaper. ;~)

krw wrote in news:nnkcrbh76ut7i1jadnmeem3dbd76367vnv@
4ax.com:

On Thu, 18 Aug 2016 18:51:51 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 8/18/2016 7:08 AM, Doug Miller wrote:



Sloppier in what respect?

There's enough play in the biscuit slots, and enough variability
in the thickness of individual biscuits, to allow for noticeable
misalignment in an edge-to-edge glue-up, enough to leave a ridge
that's too big to remove with just a few passes with a card
scraper. I found that I can get better alignment, faster, without
the biscuits.


I understand how that can happen but I've not really had problems with
it. I've been using Porter Cable biscuits and keep them in a pretty
stable environment so they don't swell.

I did once use a bag of generic biscuit and found more variation though.

I used PC biscuits and PC cutter and found and had the same problem.

Same he PC tool and PC biscuits.

It's back in the box with just a little dust on it.

I'm still using mine, though. Just not for edge-gluing panels.

On 08/18/2016 9:32 PM, Leon wrote:
I actually went through 2 PC plate joiners, a 556 which I bought around
1990 and much later replaced it with a 557. I literally used a few
thousand biscuits with the 556. Not so much with the 557 for the same
reasons. While the 557 looked like a Ferrari compared to the 556 it had
QC problems IMHO. It is a shame that the design was not implemented well.
....

The one I have is Ryobi iirc; wife bought it as a gift; I didn't have
one even on the radar at the time...

It's not the most sturdy thing in the world by any stretch and it does
take some tinkering w/ the fence to actually get it aligned, but the
thing is one doesn't need to be precisely centered; only use the same
reference side...

The noise isn't any worse than any router, less than many and for an
inexpensive tool it has very little runout. I've just never found the
biscuits to be loose in a slot; it takes pliers to get one out even
before glue.

I don't suppose I've used a bag of biscuits in the 20 yr had the tool,
but again for the occasion it works very well imo...

....

I sure wish I had room in my shop for a shaper. ;~)

Would never be without it...or actually, "them"...

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On Fri, 19 Aug 2016 02:49:04 -0000 (UTC), Doug Miller
wrote:

krw wrote in news:nnkcrbh76ut7i1jadnmeem3dbd76367vnv@
4ax.com:

On Thu, 18 Aug 2016 18:51:51 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 8/18/2016 7:08 AM, Doug Miller wrote:



Sloppier in what respect?

There's enough play in the biscuit slots, and enough variability
in the thickness of individual biscuits, to allow for noticeable
misalignment in an edge-to-edge glue-up, enough to leave a ridge
that's too big to remove with just a few passes with a card
scraper. I found that I can get better alignment, faster, without
the biscuits.


I understand how that can happen but I've not really had problems with
it. I've been using Porter Cable biscuits and keep them in a pretty
stable environment so they don't swell.

I did once use a bag of generic biscuit and found more variation though.

I used PC biscuits and PC cutter and found and had the same problem.

Same he PC tool and PC biscuits.

It's back in the box with just a little dust on it.

I'm still using mine, though. Just not for edge-gluing panels.

If I couldn't trust it to align flat panels to each other (with the
help of clamps and cauls), I figured there was no point in even trying
anything more complicated. There are too many other joinery
techniques to bother with it anymore.

dpb wrote:
On 08/18/2016 9:32 PM, Leon wrote:
I actually went through 2 PC plate joiners, a 556 which I bought around
1990 and much later replaced it with a 557. I literally used a few
thousand biscuits with the 556. Not so much with the 557 for the same
reasons. While the 557 looked like a Ferrari compared to the 556 it had
QC problems IMHO. It is a shame that the design was not implemented well.
...

The one I have is Ryobi iirc; wife bought it as a gift; I didn't have
one even on the radar at the time...

It's not the most sturdy thing in the world by any stretch and it does
take some tinkering w/ the fence to actually get it aligned, but the
thing is one doesn't need to be precisely centered; only use the same
reference side...

The noise isn't any worse than any router, less than many and for an
inexpensive tool it has very little runout. I've just never found the
biscuits to be loose in a slot; it takes pliers to get one out even
before glue.

I don't suppose I've used a bag of biscuits in the 20 yr had the tool,
but again for the occasion it works very well imo...

...

I sure wish I had room in my shop for a shaper. ;~)

Would never be without it...or actually, "them"...

--


It, them! Now you are just bragging. LOL. Good on you!

On 08/19/2016 11:35 PM, Leon wrote:
wrote:
On 08/18/2016 9:32 PM, Leon wrote:
....

I sure wish I had room in my shop for a shaper. ;~)

Would never be without it...or actually, "them"...

It, them! Now you are just bragging. LOL. Good on you!

But I don't have the tilting, multi-spindle version (yet...)

In _some_ justification, I started out with a used Craftsman (the 1/2"
spindle open grid model), eventually got the similar but solid table
small Delta and finally many years later the old Rockwell-Delta
(Milwaukee vintage) heavy-duty model with 3/4" and 1" spindles that can
take the larger panel-raising cutters, etc. And, of course, when that
journey began, the router wasn't what it is today or even close and the
availability of router bits was even more extremely limited as
well...now, excepting for the really large commercial enterprises, the
situation is mostly reversed; there are far more router-bit profiles
available easily than shaper cutters in the 1/2" and lesser sizes, Delta
quit making them entirely a number of years ago, and the stub spindle is
almost unheard of any longer for things like the coping cut on
window/door rails to allow the full-length tenon instead just the stub.
I complained to Lonnie Bird at one of his workshops in Knoxville
a number of years ago when Delta discontinued them and he had enoough
name recognition eventually CMT produced a set with his name...that
arrangement no longer seems to be in effect and since left TN I haven't
seen him in almost 20 year now. I think maybe at one time he had a deal
with Amana Tool, but I don't see that in their catalog now, either. I
guess nobody at home makes old-style architectural stuff any more except
me...

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On 08/20/2016 9:04 AM, dpb wrote:
....

... the stub spindle is
almost unheard of any longer for things like the coping cut on
window/door rails to allow the full-length tenon instead just the stub.

....


One of the currently available Amana sets; better than nothing altho w/
just 1/4" shank is a little puny for more than just the occasional door
or two. When needing to produce 20 or so, not so much...

http://www.toolstoday.com/p-5251-window-stile-rail-cutters.aspx

Couldn't find picture of the stub spindle for the LD or HD shaper
off-hand, here's a listing of the double-ended one for the old 43-355
that has good picture of the stub end...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/43-357-Delta-Double-Ended-Shaper-Spindle-for-43-355-NEW-/330549756791

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On Thu, 18 Aug 2016 11:08:38 -0000 (UTC), Doug Miller
wrote:

DerbyDad03 wrote in
:

On Wednesday, August 17, 2016 at 8:02:13 AM UTC-4, Doug Miller
wrote:
Puckdropper puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com wrote in
news:57b3d4d7$0$44625 :

krw wrote in
news
When my biscuit jointer was new, that's the first thing I
tried doing. It didn't work out so well. Too much slop in
the joint. The biscuit was pretty much useless. The
jointer has now been used *once* and it'll likely stay that
way until my heirs sell it on ebay.

Has anyone ever tried those hinges that are mortised out with
a bisquick joiner? Just wondering if that might be a handy
use for it, rather than a dust collector.

Is a bisquick joiner something you use in the kitchen? ;-)

I used mine, right after I got it, for a couple of panel
glue-ups, and concluded that it provided no advantage over
edge-gluing and clamping -- in fact, it took longer, was more
work, and produced sloppier results.


Sloppier in what respect?

There's enough play in the biscuit slots, and enough variability
in the thickness of individual biscuits, to allow for noticeable
misalignment in an edge-to-edge glue-up, enough to leave a ridge
that's too big to remove with just a few passes with a card
scraper. I found that I can get better alignment, faster, without
the biscuits.


Then your either using wrong sized biscuits , wrong size blade the
machine incorrectly or the machine has a fault .

steve robinson wrote in
:

On Thu, 18 Aug 2016 11:08:38 -0000 (UTC), Doug Miller
wrote:



There's enough play in the biscuit slots, and enough variability
in the thickness of individual biscuits, to allow for noticeable
misalignment in an edge-to-edge glue-up, enough to leave a ridge
that's too big to remove with just a few passes with a card
scraper. I found that I can get better alignment, faster, without
the biscuits.


Then your either using wrong sized biscuits , wrong size blade the
machine incorrectly or the machine has a fault .

Nope. The main problem is that the biscuits aren't all the same thickness.

On Sat, 20 Aug 2016 21:10:53 -0000 (UTC), Doug Miller
wrote:

steve robinson wrote in
:

On Thu, 18 Aug 2016 11:08:38 -0000 (UTC), Doug Miller
wrote:



There's enough play in the biscuit slots, and enough variability
in the thickness of individual biscuits, to allow for noticeable
misalignment in an edge-to-edge glue-up, enough to leave a ridge
that's too big to remove with just a few passes with a card
scraper. I found that I can get better alignment, faster, without
the biscuits.


Then your either using wrong sized biscuits , wrong size blade the
machine incorrectly or the machine has a fault .

Nope. The main problem is that the biscuits aren't all the same thickness.

And are intended to swell when the glue wets them. It doesn't work as
advertised.

On 8/20/2016 2:56 PM, steve robinson wrote:


Snip




Sloppier in what respect?

There's enough play in the biscuit slots, and enough variability
in the thickness of individual biscuits, to allow for noticeable
misalignment in an edge-to-edge glue-up, enough to leave a ridge
that's too big to remove with just a few passes with a card
scraper. I found that I can get better alignment, faster, without
the biscuits.


Then your either using wrong sized biscuits , wrong size blade the
machine incorrectly or the machine has a fault .



I think you just about covered every thing that can happen when you use
a plate joiner. Pretty observant, you are.

On 8/20/2016 4:10 PM, Doug Miller wrote:
steve robinson wrote in
:

On Thu, 18 Aug 2016 11:08:38 -0000 (UTC), Doug Miller
wrote:



There's enough play in the biscuit slots, and enough variability
in the thickness of individual biscuits, to allow for noticeable
misalignment in an edge-to-edge glue-up, enough to leave a ridge
that's too big to remove with just a few passes with a card
scraper. I found that I can get better alignment, faster, without
the biscuits.


Then your either using wrong sized biscuits , wrong size blade the
machine incorrectly or the machine has a fault .

Nope. The main problem is that the biscuits aren't all the same thickness.



I never bought this brand but I understand that Lamello makes very good
biscuits. And like TBIII glue it is probably best to not buy more than
you need for a particular project.