You know who you are, ehem! Karl, Leon, etc.
Wake up, pay attention. Actual advice wanted here!!! :-D

So I have a client who runs a retail store and the contractor who built
it out did a "decent' job with the cabinets but used those $3, stamped
white metal drawer slides on 32" wide, 5"-ish high, 24" deep, 3/4"
plywood, solid wood fronted drawers. Nice, strong, heavy drawers...
with terrible slides. They are having all kinds of problems so I'm
replacing them with good ones, meant for that size drawer in a
commercial environment.

I'll not only take advice on what make/model slides you like, but also
on the best way to retrofit them because there are some issues I'll
explain.... right now...

First, they used these spacers on the drawers because none of the
openings are the same exact size. The spacers are different sizes on
different drawers and some have none at all.
https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/vAyMyOgXdFa3SqRY3qceENMTjNZETYmyPJy0liipFm0?feat=d irectlink

This is the recess behind the face-frame and the box. It is uniform
(apx. 1/8") on all boxes. At the very bottom of the picture you can see
a portion of the cheap slide mounted with a shim.
https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/Sg6TPhq4EjtReWgqmBJ2TNMTjNZETYmyPJy0liipFm0?feat=d irectlink

This is what I'm dealing with inside the cabinets. It's a fuzzy pic,
but you get the deal.
https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/1uOYbU5G8U6WfCiY52qv8tMTjNZETYmyPJy0liipFm0?feat=d irectlink

The drawer boxes are 32" wide x 23.5" deep. The interior of the cabinet
boxes average 33-1/4" wide +/- 1/4". So I'm either going to need
spacers attached to the insides of the cabinet boxes or to the sides of
the drawers, and they will all be different thicknesses.

So do you think I should put spacers on the cabinet or the drawers?
And what slides do you recommend? I would prefer full extension, soft
close.

Thanks!

--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 2/2/2016 9:49 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
You know who you are, ehem! Karl, Leon, etc.
Wake up, pay attention. Actual advice wanted here!!! :-D

So I have a client who runs a retail store and the contractor who built
it out did a "decent' job with the cabinets but used those $3, stamped
white metal drawer slides on 32" wide, 5"-ish high, 24" deep, 3/4"
plywood, solid wood fronted drawers. Nice, strong, heavy drawers...
with terrible slides. They are having all kinds of problems so I'm
replacing them with good ones, meant for that size drawer in a
commercial environment.

I'll not only take advice on what make/model slides you like, but also
on the best way to retrofit them because there are some issues I'll
explain.... right now...

First, they used these spacers on the drawers because none of the
openings are the same exact size. The spacers are different sizes on
different drawers and some have none at all.
https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/vAyMyOgXdFa3SqRY3qceENMTjNZETYmyPJy0liipFm0?feat=d irectlink


This is the recess behind the face-frame and the box. It is uniform
(apx. 1/8") on all boxes. At the very bottom of the picture you can see
a portion of the cheap slide mounted with a shim.
https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/Sg6TPhq4EjtReWgqmBJ2TNMTjNZETYmyPJy0liipFm0?feat=d irectlink


This is what I'm dealing with inside the cabinets. It's a fuzzy pic,
but you get the deal.
https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/1uOYbU5G8U6WfCiY52qv8tMTjNZETYmyPJy0liipFm0?feat=d irectlink


The drawer boxes are 32" wide x 23.5" deep. The interior of the cabinet
boxes average 33-1/4" wide +/- 1/4". So I'm either going to need
spacers attached to the insides of the cabinet boxes or to the sides of
the drawers, and they will all be different thicknesses.

So do you think I should put spacers on the cabinet or the drawers?
And what slides do you recommend? I would prefer full extension, soft
close.

Thanks!


Commercial application....

I would build a cabinet insert to slide into the opening and build new
drawers to fit those inserts. In other words measure the openings and
build the whole thing in your shop. Then return and do a quick install
of the assembly.
You can sell it as in and out of their hair in the minimum amount of time.


It is hard to fix something that is done wrong.

I have been using these side full extension soft close slides for about
5 years. I think they will ship.

http://www.cabinethardware.com/G-Sli...ose-p/1012.htm

On Tue, 2 Feb 2016 21:49:42 -0600, -MIKE-
wrote:

snip

The drawer boxes are 32" wide x 23.5" deep. The interior of the cabinet
boxes average 33-1/4" wide +/- 1/4". So I'm either going to need
spacers attached to the insides of the cabinet boxes or to the sides of
the drawers, and they will all be different thicknesses.

So do you think I should put spacers on the cabinet or the drawers?
And what slides do you recommend? I would prefer full extension, soft
close.

Now you know I am not the guy to answer this all. LOL, and Leon made a
suggestion I thought was great, for both you and the customer.

But I did want to ask you this.

Did you check the drawers for squareness? From your descriptions none
of it, or not much is squared and you would need to know this right up
front.

Just out of curiosity, you mentioned a gap of 1/8" or so between the
FF and the carcass (sp) by that did you mean between the groove/dado
in the FF and the panel that was supposed to sit tightly in it?

If that is the case, then how the cabinets are mounted could over a
short time cause the whole thing to loosen up, I would think, like all
the crappy cabinets in LA after an earthquake.

Just a couple thoughts.

I am betting that your client would not like to see you rebuild his cabinets, drawers, etc., and just wants better working drawers. Yes? No?

Most of my clients (especially my commercial guys) always cast a strong eye towards the balance of utility to price equation and will almost always take what they perceive is the best bang for he buck.

Just a thought here, another look at the situation.

If they are happy with the drawers (heavy built, doing the job) and aren't interested into making their sack drawer into a piece of cabinetry, why don't you replace the slides and be done with it?

They sell these slides

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Liberty-2...ZP-W/202200646

under different names, but the ones that they sell at HD and Lowes are now branded as "Richelieu" and "Liberty" and almost all the upper end products from those two companies branded as such are the old Accuride products. I like KV, but also like Accuride and have used their products for years as we had a supplier here for years. I used the Accuride products in kitchens and some commercial and never had a kick about their durability.

And if you leave the spacers on the drawers, you could like a hero to your client if you can find a slide with the same dimensions that would be a direct replacement. With a purchase from the big box, you could simply return the slides if they don't work.

Personally, having run into the situation you are in now, I left the spacers on the drawers as somebody else took the time and effort to shim out the sides (reason to me unknown, I think they didn't plan for or get the right slides) to make the drawer slides fit. I did a straight replacement and was done with six drawers in less than a half day as I had to put a couple of blocks in the backs of the drawers to receive the end of the slide that was inside the cabinet.

My client was pleased with the drawers and pleased with the price.

Robert

On Tue, 2 Feb 2016 21:49:42 -0600, -MIKE-
wrote:

You know who you are, ehem! Karl, Leon, etc.
Wake up, pay attention. Actual advice wanted here!!! :-D

So I have a client who runs a retail store and the contractor who built
it out did a "decent' job with the cabinets but used those $3, stamped
white metal drawer slides on 32" wide, 5"-ish high, 24" deep, 3/4"
plywood, solid wood fronted drawers. Nice, strong, heavy drawers...
with terrible slides. They are having all kinds of problems so I'm
replacing them with good ones, meant for that size drawer in a
commercial environment.
snips
Thanks!


Would they be Blum brand or a copy ?
If they are a cheap copy - might the Blum be better ?
If they are Blum they are rated for 75 - 100 lbs and
have a lifetime guarantee ..
http://www.leevalley.com/en/Hardware...614,43616&ap=1
I'd love to see a trial comparison - retrofit a few of the worst
drawers with Blum - and see how they last ..
Just a thought. - before a more difficult retro-fit.
John T.



--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ---

On 2/3/2016 4:48 AM, wrote:
I am betting that your client would not like to see you rebuild his
cabinets, drawers, etc., and just wants better working drawers. Yes?
No?

Most of my clients (especially my commercial guys) always cast a
strong eye towards the balance of utility to price equation and will
almost always take what they perceive is the best bang for he buck.

Just a thought here, another look at the situation.

If they are happy with the drawers (heavy built, doing the job) and
aren't interested into making their sack drawer into a piece of
cabinetry, why don't you replace the slides and be done with it?

They sell these slides

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Liberty-2...ZP-W/202200646

under different names, but the ones that they sell at HD and Lowes
are now branded as "Richelieu" and "Liberty" and almost all the upper
end products from those two companies branded as such are the old
Accuride products. I like KV, but also like Accuride and have used
their products for years as we had a supplier here for years. I used
the Accuride products in kitchens and some commercial and never had a
kick about their durability.

Just an observation, the link I provided for the KV distributed G-Slide
soft close slides goes to Cornerstone Hardware here in Houston. They
are a very nice store/supplier to the trades. They have been around for
decades and family owned. BUT I noticed that their receipts followed by
a news letter a few days ago indicated that they have been bought by
Richelieu hardware. I'm hoping that their service remains the same as
they were always informative and always offer to carry the purchases out
to the car for Kim. AND they almost with out exception offered equal
and better quality than Rockler and Woodcraft and pricing up to 40%
lower. I think we are going to begin seeing a lot more Richelieu
hardware in the future.


And if you leave the spacers on the drawers, you could like a hero to
your client if you can find a slide with the same dimensions that
would be a direct replacement. With a purchase from the big box, you
could simply return the slides if they don't work.

Personally, having run into the situation you are in now, I left the
spacers on the drawers as somebody else took the time and effort to
shim out the sides (reason to me unknown, I think they didn't plan
for or get the right slides) to make the drawer slides fit. I did a
straight replacement and was done with six drawers in less than a
half day as I had to put a couple of blocks in the backs of the
drawers to receive the end of the slide that was inside the cabinet.

My client was pleased with the drawers and pleased with the price.

Robert

On 2/3/2016 5:49 AM, wrote:
On Tue, 2 Feb 2016 21:49:42 -0600, -MIKE-
wrote:

You know who you are, ehem! Karl, Leon, etc.
Wake up, pay attention. Actual advice wanted here!!! :-D

So I have a client who runs a retail store and the contractor who built
it out did a "decent' job with the cabinets but used those $3, stamped
white metal drawer slides on 32" wide, 5"-ish high, 24" deep, 3/4"
plywood, solid wood fronted drawers. Nice, strong, heavy drawers...
with terrible slides. They are having all kinds of problems so I'm
replacing them with good ones, meant for that size drawer in a
commercial environment.
snips
Thanks!


Would they be Blum brand or a copy ?
If they are a cheap copy - might the Blum be better ?
If they are Blum they are rated for 75 - 100 lbs and
have a lifetime guarantee ..
http://www.leevalley.com/en/Hardware...614,43616&ap=1
I'd love to see a trial comparison - retrofit a few of the worst
drawers with Blum - and see how they last ..
Just a thought. - before a more difficult retro-fit.
John T.



--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ---


The biggest problem with the style slide he is going to replace is that
it does not lock together. If the tracks are slightly out of alignment
they can jump off track and get jammed. With wide drawers it is always
a task for slides to keep "wide" drawers running true, wide drawers can
wobble back and forth, but slides that capture their components tend to
work better and not get jammed up.

On 2/3/16 8:33 AM, Leon wrote:
On 2/3/2016 5:49 AM, wrote:
On Tue, 2 Feb 2016 21:49:42 -0600, -MIKE-
wrote:

You know who you are, ehem! Karl, Leon, etc.
Wake up, pay attention. Actual advice wanted here!!! :-D

So I have a client who runs a retail store and the contractor who built
it out did a "decent' job with the cabinets but used those $3, stamped
white metal drawer slides on 32" wide, 5"-ish high, 24" deep, 3/4"
plywood, solid wood fronted drawers. Nice, strong, heavy drawers...
with terrible slides. They are having all kinds of problems so I'm
replacing them with good ones, meant for that size drawer in a
commercial environment.
snips
Thanks!


Would they be Blum brand or a copy ?
If they are a cheap copy - might the Blum be better ?
If they are Blum they are rated for 75 - 100 lbs and
have a lifetime guarantee ..
http://www.leevalley.com/en/Hardware...614,43616&ap=1

I'd love to see a trial comparison - retrofit a few of the worst
drawers with Blum - and see how they last ..
Just a thought. - before a more difficult retro-fit.
John T.



--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ---


The biggest problem with the style slide he is going to replace is that
it does not lock together. If the tracks are slightly out of alignment
they can jump off track and get jammed. With wide drawers it is always
a task for slides to keep "wide" drawers running true, wide drawers can
wobble back and forth, but slides that capture their components tend to
work better and not get jammed up.

What he said. ^^^
Plus, the plastic bracket that holds the rail to the back of the cabinet
is barely suitable for a narrow cabinet, let alone 33" wide ones.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 2/2/2016 9:49 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
So do you think I should put spacers on the cabinet or the drawers?
And what slides do you recommend? I would prefer full extension, soft
close.

Occam's razor is your guiding principle.

For an RO that gives you _at least_ the 1/2" on each side required for
medium duty slides, I would prefer to shim the drawer slide on the
cabinet side of the rough opening.

For any drawers that have been previously shimmed on the drawer side,
leave the shim and add whatever you need to the height to mount your
drawer side slide, if any.

Since the old drawers used back brackets according to the photo, use
back brackets made for the new drawer slides you choose.

I would use KV8400's of the appropriate length, and they can be ordered
with back brackets.

--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://www.google.com/+eWoodShop
https://plus.google.com/+KarlCaillouet/posts
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

On 2/2/16 11:44 PM, Leon wrote:

Commercial application....

I would build a cabinet insert to slide into the opening and build new
drawers to fit those inserts. In other words measure the openings and
build the whole thing in your shop. Then return and do a quick install
of the assembly.
You can sell it as in and out of their hair in the minimum amount of time.


It is hard to fix something that is done wrong.

I have been using these side full extension soft close slides for about
5 years. I think they will ship.

http://www.cabinethardware.com/G-Sli...ose-p/1012.htm


I don't think building cabinet inserts is the answer in this situation.
1. I don't think they'd go for the cost.
2. Despite your valued and trusted opinion, I don't think it's necessary.

I do, however, see the wisdom in being as "in and out" as possible,
especially in a retail store where renovation may have an adverse effect
on customers.



--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 2/3/16 4:48 AM, wrote:
I am betting that your client would not like to see you rebuild his
cabinets, drawers, etc., and just wants better working drawers.
Yes? No?


That was my read and that's what I recommended because the cabinets and
drawers are actually pretty decent despite somewhat neanderthal joinery.
The cheap, underrated slides are the weakest link.


Most of my clients (especially my commercial guys) always cast a
strong eye towards the balance of utility to price equation and will
almost always take what they perceive is the best bang for he buck.

Just a thought here, another look at the situation.

If they are happy with the drawers (heavy built, doing the job) and
aren't interested into making their sack drawer into a piece of
cabinetry, why don't you replace the slides and be done with it?

They sell these slides

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Liberty-2...ZP-W/202200646



under different names, but the ones that they sell at HD and Lowes
are now branded as "Richelieu" and "Liberty" and almost all the
upper end products from those two companies branded as such are the
old Accuride products. I like KV, but also like Accuride and have
used their products for years as we had a supplier here for years. I
used the Accuride products in kitchens and some commercial and never
had a kick about their durability.

And if you leave the spacers on the drawers, you could like a hero
to your client if you can find a slide with the same dimensions that
would be a direct replacement. With a purchase from the big box,
you could simply return the slides if they don't work.

Personally, having run into the situation you are in now, I left the
spacers on the drawers as somebody else took the time and effort to
shim out the sides (reason to me unknown, I think they didn't plan
for or get the right slides) to make the drawer slides fit. I did a
straight replacement and was done with six drawers in less than a
half day as I had to put a couple of blocks in the backs of the
drawers to receive the end of the slide that was inside the cabinet.

My client was pleased with the drawers and pleased with the price.

Robert


I see great wisdom in the reasoning behind your suggestion to use the
spacers already on the drawers.
In this particular case (pun!) I may end up replacing the existing
spacers but using them as a measurement for the thickness of the new
ones. I don't think the existing ones are high enough, nor attached as
securely as I'd prefer.

If I can get slides similar to your suggestion that are soft close and
attach to the face-frame in front and use a strong enough rear socket,
that may be the easiest solution for slides.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 2/3/16 2:42 AM, OFWW wrote:
On Tue, 2 Feb 2016 21:49:42 -0600, -MIKE-
wrote:

snip

The drawer boxes are 32" wide x 23.5" deep. The interior of the cabinet
boxes average 33-1/4" wide +/- 1/4". So I'm either going to need
spacers attached to the insides of the cabinet boxes or to the sides of
the drawers, and they will all be different thicknesses.

So do you think I should put spacers on the cabinet or the drawers?
And what slides do you recommend? I would prefer full extension, soft
close.

Now you know I am not the guy to answer this all. LOL, and Leon made a
suggestion I thought was great, for both you and the customer.

But I did want to ask you this.

Did you check the drawers for squareness? From your descriptions none
of it, or not much is squared and you would need to know this right up
front.


I did not measure for square because they actually did function properly
without a load.
when any kind of lateral force was applied (ie: pulling or pushing
drawer from a side instead of center) they easily slipped out of the
rails. That type of cheap slide has too much twist in it to suffice for
drawers that big and heavy.


Just out of curiosity, you mentioned a gap of 1/8" or so between the
FF and the carcass (sp) by that did you mean between the groove/dado
in the FF and the panel that was supposed to sit tightly in it?

If that is the case, then how the cabinets are mounted could over a
short time cause the whole thing to loosen up, I would think, like all
the crappy cabinets in LA after an earthquake.

Just a couple thoughts.


No, I mean the face-frame is wider than the cabinet box sides.
I would guess the frames are 1-3/4" and the two box sides, being 3/4"
each makes 1-1/2" leaving 1/4", giving me the 1/8" on each side.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 2/3/16 10:33 AM, Swingman wrote:
On 2/2/2016 9:49 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
So do you think I should put spacers on the cabinet or the
drawers? And what slides do you recommend? I would prefer full
extension, soft close.

Occam's razor is your guiding principle.

For an RO that gives you _at least_ the 1/2" on each side required
for medium duty slides, I would prefer to shim the drawer slide on
the cabinet side of the rough opening.

For any drawers that have been previously shimmed on the drawer side,
leave the shim and add whatever you need to the height to mount your
drawer side slide, if any.

Since the old drawers used back brackets according to the photo, use
back brackets made for the new drawer slides you choose.

I would use KV8400's of the appropriate length, and they can be
ordered with back brackets.


Those slides have rear brackets *and* face frame adapters so I'm liking
them already.
If they made adapters/slides that attached to the cabinet rail below the
drawer, I would've have to deal with spacers.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 2/3/2016 11:08 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 2/3/16 10:33 AM, Swingman wrote:
On 2/2/2016 9:49 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
So do you think I should put spacers on the cabinet or the
drawers? And what slides do you recommend? I would prefer full
extension, soft close.

Occam's razor is your guiding principle.

For an RO that gives you _at least_ the 1/2" on each side required
for medium duty slides, I would prefer to shim the drawer slide on
the cabinet side of the rough opening.

For any drawers that have been previously shimmed on the drawer side,
leave the shim and add whatever you need to the height to mount your
drawer side slide, if any.

Since the old drawers used back brackets according to the photo, use
back brackets made for the new drawer slides you choose.

I would use KV8400's of the appropriate length, and they can be
ordered with back brackets.


Those slides have rear brackets *and* face frame adapters so I'm liking
them already.
If they made adapters/slides that attached to the cabinet rail below the
drawer, I would've have to deal with spacers.

Since I face what you're facing on almost every remodel where the client
wants to keep the drawers but have the latest and greatest in drawer
slides; or when the cabinet RO's vary past the required 1/16" tolerance
for new drawers, I find the KV 8400 give me the most flexibility, often
allowing me to mix and match the FF and rear, or lack thereof, brackets
according the cabinet, and often the position of the drawer in the cabinets.

Looked around to find some photos to illustrate doing whatever it takes
to get a good installation and found this 2014 video ... it's short, but
you can see some "mix and match" for the same cabinets ... and this was
a fairly easy one:

https://picasaweb.google.com/1113554... 2205120220706

--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://www.google.com/+eWoodShop
https://plus.google.com/+KarlCaillouet/posts
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

On 2/3/16 11:30 AM, Swingman wrote:
On 2/3/2016 11:08 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 2/3/16 10:33 AM, Swingman wrote:
On 2/2/2016 9:49 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
So do you think I should put spacers on the cabinet or the
drawers? And what slides do you recommend? I would prefer full
extension, soft close.

Occam's razor is your guiding principle.

For an RO that gives you _at least_ the 1/2" on each side required
for medium duty slides, I would prefer to shim the drawer slide on
the cabinet side of the rough opening.

For any drawers that have been previously shimmed on the drawer side,
leave the shim and add whatever you need to the height to mount your
drawer side slide, if any.

Since the old drawers used back brackets according to the photo, use
back brackets made for the new drawer slides you choose.

I would use KV8400's of the appropriate length, and they can be
ordered with back brackets.


Those slides have rear brackets *and* face frame adapters so I'm liking
them already.
If they made adapters/slides that attached to the cabinet rail below the
drawer, I would've have to deal with spacers.

Since I face what you're facing on almost every remodel where the client
wants to keep the drawers but have the latest and greatest in drawer
slides; or when the cabinet RO's vary past the required 1/16" tolerance
for new drawers, I find the KV 8400 give me the most flexibility, often
allowing me to mix and match the FF and rear, or lack thereof, brackets
according the cabinet, and often the position of the drawer in the
cabinets.

Looked around to find some photos to illustrate doing whatever it takes
to get a good installation and found this 2014 video ... it's short, but
you can see some "mix and match" for the same cabinets ... and this was
a fairly easy one:

https://picasaweb.google.com/1113554... 2205120220706


At about the 12 second mark there's a good view of the spacers you used
to attach the slides to the face frame.
When I visited the store, yesterday, to inspect their problems, I
actually "fixed" a few of the drawers just to get them functioning well
enough to use in the mean time. This involved shimming out a couple
slides from the face frame using similar blocking.



--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 2/3/2016 11:08 AM, -MIKE- wrote:

Those slides have rear brackets *and* face frame adapters so I'm liking
them already.
If they made adapters/slides that attached to the cabinet rail below the
drawer, I would've have to deal with spacers.


Obviously I would prefer not to use any brackets, but they can come in
handy, particularly the back brackets, when the existing cabinets are
badly out of square, and you have room to mount and adjust them.

Mike already knows this, but For those following along who are not
already familiar, it's pretty much a no brainer once you've installed a
few back brackets:

You get that smooth operation, and good fit when closed, when the drawer
slides are parallel to each other, and perpendicular in all planes to
the face frame.

When mounting, simply use one screw on each back bracket, in the middle
of the horizontal screw slot, with at least one tightened just enough to
move with light pressure.

If your back brackets are close to alignment to the front to start with,
pushing the drawer in the first time will often be enough to shift the
loose bracket(s) perfectly parallel to each other.

If the drawer works easily, carefully open the drawer about half way and
tighten any loose bracket screws, and add a couple more before
completely removing the drawer.

CAVEAT: You need to insure the back brackets are close to being in the
right spot to begin with, and as close to parallel as possible.

(I'll often use a bar gauge to do that).

And don't force the drawer on the first attempt or you'll likely play
hell getting the drawer out if the back brackets are splayed.

(sometimes it helps to pull out the cabinet side slides all the way out,
and mount the drawer to those slides before closing it the first time by
clicking the interior sliders into place manually).

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-MIKE- wrote in :

So do you think I should put spacers on the cabinet or the drawers?

If it were me, I think I'd put them on the cabinet. Especially
if the drawer boxes are uniform in width, because then with
luck you'd be able to move drawers between openings (which
someone, someday, is likely to try to do).

John

On 2/3/16 2:02 PM, John McCoy wrote:
-MIKE- wrote in :

So do you think I should put spacers on the cabinet or the drawers?

If it were me, I think I'd put them on the cabinet. Especially
if the drawer boxes are uniform in width, because then with
luck you'd be able to move drawers between openings (which
someone, someday, is likely to try to do).

John


The openings are not uniform, unfortunately.
And you're right about people moving them around.
It would be nice for the client if I could figure out a way to make them
universal.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 2/3/2016 5:12 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
It would be nice for the client if I could figure out a way to make them
universal.

Only way to do that is make the RO where the drawers go the same (33")
in every cabinet.

You can build out, or shim, or both. That way your drawers would then be
interchangeable in those locations ... providing the drawers are indeed
32" wide.

If you have to err, err a scooch on the wider side. You can always shim
a too wide RO, not the other way around.

It is certainly doable if the budget allows.

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KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

On 2/3/2016 5:12 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
It would be nice for the client if I could figure out a way to make them
universal.

Similar situation you are in.

Not a single RO, side to side, top to bottom, the same in this set of 6
garage storage cabinets.

What will really frost your butt is I originally bid on the whole
cabinet job (including drawers), lost the bid, and was called back later
to fix the problem when the asshat who out bid me couldn't figure out
how to make and fit/install the damned file sized drawers the client wanted.

Boy howdy, did they have to pay through the nose for what you see in
these photos ... and I was not about to make six different size drawers.

Also had to replace the door hinges to get the needed clearance for the
specific width drawers to hold file folders.

If you look closely you can see some of the variation in "spacer"
thickness from cabinet to cabinet ... and from top to bottom drawer.

https://picasaweb.google.com/1113554...?noredirect=1#

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On 2/3/16 6:40 PM, Swingman wrote:
On 2/3/2016 5:12 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
It would be nice for the client if I could figure out a way to make them
universal.

Similar situation you are in.

Not a single RO, side to side, top to bottom, the same in this set of 6
garage storage cabinets.

What will really frost your butt is I originally bid on the whole
cabinet job (including drawers), lost the bid, and was called back later
to fix the problem when the asshat who out bid me couldn't figure out
how to make and fit/install the damned file sized drawers the client
wanted.

Boy howdy, did they have to pay through the nose for what you see in
these photos ... and I was not about to make six different size drawers.

Also had to replace the door hinges to get the needed clearance for the
specific width drawers to hold file folders.

If you look closely you can see some of the variation in "spacer"
thickness from cabinet to cabinet ... and from top to bottom drawer.

https://picasaweb.google.com/1113554...?noredirect=1#


Yes, I can see the spacers and that is what came to my mind at first
viewing when I was in their shop yesterday.
I think I'll go back and double check that all drawers are the same
width. If so, I may be leaning towards building out the interiors with
that type of spacer. The cabinets are very wide and open so there's
plenty of room for me to get in there with a drill/driver.

I think I could show up with stock the thickness of the widest gap and
use either a planer or jointer to take the rest down to thickness. That
would be fairy quick.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 2/3/2016 7:43 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
I think I could show up with stock the thickness of the widest gap and
use either a planer or jointer to take the rest down to thickness. That
would be fairy quick.

The slides aren't that tall, so should be able to resaw to thickness on
the table saw for each location ... what I usually do.

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KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

On 2/3/16 8:43 PM, Swingman wrote:
On 2/3/2016 7:43 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
I think I could show up with stock the thickness of the widest gap and
use either a planer or jointer to take the rest down to thickness. That
would be fairy quick.

The slides aren't that tall, so should be able to resaw to thickness on
the table saw for each location ... what I usually do.


Since I just picked up a job-site TS, that sounds like the plan.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On Wednesday, February 3, 2016 at 6:41:31 PM UTC-6, Swingman wrote:

Boy howdy, did they have to pay through the nose

LOL... no wonder we get along so well. A man truly after my own heart.

I don't like it when I get beat on a job, but I really don't like it if I get beat because someone used lesser quality materials, lesser build quality, and inferior design. Still... it happens, certainly part of the business.

But one should be aware of consequences if they call me to "fix" the work of a contractor that got the job. Pricing on repairs of that type isn't pretty, but depending on the client's attitude, it can be downright ugly.

Robert

On 2/3/16 11:44 PM, wrote:
On Wednesday, February 3, 2016 at 6:41:31 PM UTC-6, Swingman wrote:

Boy howdy, did they have to pay through the nose

LOL... no wonder we get along so well. A man truly after my own
heart.

I don't like it when I get beat on a job, but I really don't like it
if I get beat because someone used lesser quality materials, lesser
build quality, and inferior design. Still... it happens, certainly
part of the business.

But one should be aware of consequences if they call me to "fix" the
work of a contractor that got the job. Pricing on repairs of that
type isn't pretty, but depending on the client's attitude, it can be
downright ugly.

Robert


LOL!! I have one client who would always ask me to give him an
estimate for home improvement projects and then end up hiring someone
cheaper, or he'd never ask me for a quote-- just hire some cheap guy.
He would inevitably end up calling me to come fix it or do it right and
end up paying 30-40% more than he would've paid me to do it in the first
place.
One day, in the presence of his wife, I said, "Man, why don't you just
call me in the first place for this stuff?" His wife got this huge grin
on her face and said, "That's what I've been telling him!"

Now he calls me first. :-)


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

wrote:
On Wednesday, February 3, 2016 at 6:41:31 PM UTC-6, Swingman wrote:

Boy howdy, did they have to pay through the nose

LOL... no wonder we get along so well. A man truly after my own heart.

I don't like it when I get beat on a job, but I really don't like it if I
get beat because someone used lesser quality materials, lesser build
quality, and inferior design. Still... it happens, certainly part of the business.

But one should be aware of consequences if they call me to "fix" the work
of a contractor that got the job. Pricing on repairs of that type isn't
pretty, but depending on the client's attitude, it can be downright ugly.

Robert


And exactly why I suggested inserts and shop built. I'm not going to
suffer repairing someone else's screw up.

On 2/4/2016 12:20 AM, Leon wrote:

And exactly why I suggested inserts and shop built. I'm not going to
suffer repairing someone else's screw up.

Good, $end them to me ...

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On 2/4/2016 8:29 AM, Swingman wrote:
On 2/4/2016 12:20 AM, Leon wrote:

And exactly why I suggested inserts and shop built. I'm not going to
suffer repairing someone else's screw up.

Good, $end them to me ...



The inserts sell way to easily for me. AAMOF that is how I added
drawers under our current island and a neighbors island.

A few years back I returned 3 times to install inserts for a particular
customer wanting to "gradually" update her 40 year old kitchen so that
she did not have to crawl into her bottom cabinets. They/we were all
willing to give up and additional 1.5" in drawer width to do this.

On 2/4/2016 9:12 AM, Leon wrote:
On 2/4/2016 8:29 AM, Swingman wrote:
On 2/4/2016 12:20 AM, Leon wrote:

And exactly why I suggested inserts and shop built. I'm not going to
suffer repairing someone else's screw up.

Good, $end them to me ...



The inserts sell way to easily for me. AAMOF that is how I added
drawers under our current island and a neighbors island.

A few years back I returned 3 times to install inserts for a particular
customer wanting to "gradually" update her 40 year old kitchen so that
she did not have to crawl into her bottom cabinets. They/we were all
willing to give up and additional 1.5" in drawer width to do this.


Correction, Give up 1" of drawer width. I forgot that I use 1/2"
Baltic birch for the inserts.

Now having said that the inserts are much easier if they sit on the
cabinet floor vs. directly under the counter top.

On 2/4/2016 9:12 AM, Leon wrote:
On 2/4/2016 8:29 AM, Swingman wrote:
On 2/4/2016 12:20 AM, Leon wrote:

And exactly why I suggested inserts and shop built. I'm not going to
suffer repairing someone else's screw up.

Good, $end them to me ...



The inserts sell way to easily for me. AAMOF that is how I added
drawers under our current island and a neighbors island.

A few years back I returned 3 times to install inserts for a particular
customer wanting to "gradually" update her 40 year old kitchen so that
she did not have to crawl into her bottom cabinets. They/we were all
willing to give up and additional 1.5" in drawer width to do this.

Really depends upon the client's budget, and how many drawers, on
whether inserts would be a cost effective solution.

Yep, I'm a fan of inserts and they do work well in some instances, but
it doesn't appear to me from the photos, and Mike's post that inserts
will work in this instance, but I'm judging by what's transpired on the
group thus far.

They certainly won't be able to keep the, apparently still serviceable,
drawers with that approach ... and even with 1/2" inserts, the loss in
drawer width will be closer to 2" the way the "face frame" looks in that
photo.

Then again, it's all in the budget ...

I did use a box "inserts" for all the drawers on the job below, mainly
due to the fact that the cabinetry (rails and stile nailed together,
totally out of square, and so flimsy that I couldn't guarantee the
client they would hold up under the intended use of holding hundreds of
pounds of paper files):

https://picasaweb.google.com/1113554...?noredirect=1#

Example of the shoddy work I'm talking about these days. The above was
in a 6 year old, $2.1m home, the trim on these cabinets fell off when
the painters were re-staining, and they simply could not have been used,
"as built" for what the client wanted to do.

But they sure looked pretty though ...

Now, going on three years, they are working as intended, still look
great, and a good example of what inserts can do.

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On 2/4/2016 9:41 AM, Swingman wrote:
On 2/4/2016 9:12 AM, Leon wrote:
On 2/4/2016 8:29 AM, Swingman wrote:
On 2/4/2016 12:20 AM, Leon wrote:

And exactly why I suggested inserts and shop built. I'm not going to
suffer repairing someone else's screw up.

Good, $end them to me ...



The inserts sell way to easily for me. AAMOF that is how I added
drawers under our current island and a neighbors island.

A few years back I returned 3 times to install inserts for a particular
customer wanting to "gradually" update her 40 year old kitchen so that
she did not have to crawl into her bottom cabinets. They/we were all
willing to give up and additional 1.5" in drawer width to do this.

Really depends upon the client's budget, and how many drawers, on
whether inserts would be a cost effective solution.

Kind'a ;~) The inserts are always less than my quote for crawling
around inside the cabinets installing hardware. LOL


I did a job for a customer up in friggin The Woodlands. Bathroom
vanity. I built a new drawer and 4 doors. The new drawer bounced
around after install using the old hardware. Closer inspection revealed
that the slides, like the ones Mike is dealing with, were not pointed in
the same direction. One side of the slides was 1/2" lower in the back.
Oddly there was a hole in the cabinet in the correct location but
unused. I simply relocated the slide to that location and all was well.
The customer brought me the drawer so I was unable to assess the
situation before hand.

I think the biggest problem with prefab slides and drawers is that they
are meant to be installed/stapled quickly and allow for a lot of slop
with the thought that the installer will tweak upon install. And the
installer thinks that all is done since the drawer does go in and out.

And CRAP materials that do not hold up.



Yep, I'm a fan of inserts and they do work well in some instances, but
it doesn't appear to me from the photos, and Mike's post that inserts
will work in this instance, but I'm judging by what's transpired on the
group thus far.

Yeah, It is kinda hard to determine exactly which route would be best
with out an over all picture and where exactly...




They certainly won't be able to keep the, apparently still serviceable,
drawers with that approach ... and even with 1/2" inserts, the loss in
drawer width will be closer to 2" the way the "face frame" looks in that
photo.

Probably not.


Then again, it's all in the budget ...

I did use a box "inserts" for all the drawers on the job below, mainly
due to the fact that the cabinetry (rails and stile nailed together,
totally out of square, and so flimsy that I couldn't guarantee the
client they would hold up under the intended use of holding hundreds of
pounds of paper files):

https://picasaweb.google.com/1113554...?noredirect=1#


Example of the shoddy work I'm talking about these days. The above was
in a 6 year old, $2.1m home, the trim on these cabinets fell off when
the painters were re-staining, and they simply could not have been used,
"as built" for what the client wanted to do.

But they sure looked pretty though ...

Now, going on three years, they are working as intended, still look
great, and a good example of what inserts can do.

I have replaced/rebuilt some drawers in the Deerwood homes out here. I
swear the kitchen drawer bottoms are 1/8" thick material and it is not
plywood, it really look liked Masonite or the likes. Needless to say
the bottoms broke out. Pure S**t.

On 2/4/16 12:20 AM, Leon wrote:
wrote:
On Wednesday, February 3, 2016 at 6:41:31 PM UTC-6, Swingman wrote:

Boy howdy, did they have to pay through the nose

LOL... no wonder we get along so well. A man truly after my own heart.

I don't like it when I get beat on a job, but I really don't like it if I
get beat because someone used lesser quality materials, lesser build
quality, and inferior design. Still... it happens, certainly part of the business.

But one should be aware of consequences if they call me to "fix" the work
of a contractor that got the job. Pricing on repairs of that type isn't
pretty, but depending on the client's attitude, it can be downright ugly.

Robert


And exactly why I suggested inserts and shop built. I'm not going to
suffer repairing someone else's screw up.


Maybe I misunderstood, but I thought you were talking about building
smaller cabinet box that would fit inside the existing ones. If that's
correct, I just see that as a heck of a lot more work than cutting down
some spacer blocks and screwing them to the insides of the existing
cabinets.

But again, I may not understand what you meant.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 2/4/2016 10:55 AM, -MIKE- wrote:


Maybe I misunderstood, but I thought you were talking about building
smaller cabinet box that would fit inside the existing ones. If that's
correct, I just see that as a heck of a lot more work than cutting down
some spacer blocks and screwing them to the insides of the existing
cabinets.

But again, I may not understand what you meant.

Inserts for face frame cabinets don't have to be boxes, they can be a
anything from a frame, to full casework, depending upon aesthetics,
what needs to be accomplished, and, most importantly, budget.

They can be this simple, or full case work, the principle is the same:

https://picasaweb.google.com/1113554...4 08138140050

That said, do you want to rebuild the drawers?

And, if you want to rebuild the drawers and use some type of insert,
plus the fact that it's a commercial operation and there apparently has
been problems with heavy duty use, would you not be remiss recommending
"heavy duty" drawer slides for any newly built drawers?

Remember, those almost always need 3/4" clearance on either side,
meaning with any type of insert, and the face frames I saw, plus the
required extra clearance, they will lose almost 2" in drawer width.

Only a well informed (by you) client, and his budget, can tell you which
way to go.

Hopefully all this back and forth has been helpful in that regard.

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KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

Swingman wrote:

I did use a box "inserts" for all the drawers on the job below, mainly
due to the fact that the cabinetry (rails and stile nailed together,
totally out of square, and so flimsy that I couldn't guarantee the
client they would hold up under the intended use of holding hundreds
of pounds of paper files):

https://picasaweb.google.com/1113554...?noredirect=1#

Example of the shoddy work I'm talking about these days. The above was
in a 6 year old, $2.1m home, the trim on these cabinets fell off when
the painters were re-staining, and they simply could not have been
used, "as built" for what the client wanted to do.

OK, customers (almost all) wouldn't be able to tell good from bad, most go
only by general appearance, but the GC would. As would whatever sub made
the cabinets. So why such crummy work in a rather high end home? Were they
(GC and sub) just greedy thieves? Incompetent?

It does point up a problem that most - including me - have in finding
knowledgable, competent contractors at a fair price. IME, admittedly not
great, probably at least 50% are either looking to buy a yacht courtesy of
me, or don't know up from down. It can be tough finding a good one. Yes,
one can check referrals; trouble is, those past customers really aren't
qualified to judge good from bad...unless there was a major screwup, they
probably will say that all is fine. Which is why when one DOES find a good
one - such as you or Leon or others here - one should treasure them.

On 2/4/16 11:10 AM, Swingman wrote:
On 2/4/2016 10:55 AM, -MIKE- wrote:


Maybe I misunderstood, but I thought you were talking about
building smaller cabinet box that would fit inside the existing
ones. If that's correct, I just see that as a heck of a lot more
work than cutting down some spacer blocks and screwing them to the
insides of the existing cabinets.

But again, I may not understand what you meant.

Inserts for face frame cabinets don't have to be boxes, they can be a
anything from a frame, to full casework, depending upon aesthetics,
what needs to be accomplished, and, most importantly, budget.

They can be this simple, or full case work, the principle is the
same:

https://picasaweb.google.com/1113554...4 08138140050



Great picture and idea!



That said, do you want to rebuild the drawers?


No. I think they are plenty strong, as are the cabinet boxes.
As I said, the only real weak link are the slides. It's like they built
a motorcycle with a big motor and heavy duty frame and put bicycle
wheels on it.


And, if you want to rebuild the drawers and use some type of insert,
plus the fact that it's a commercial operation and there apparently
has been problems with heavy duty use, would you not be remiss
recommending "heavy duty" drawer slides for any newly built drawers?

Remember, those almost always need 3/4" clearance on either side,
meaning with any type of insert, and the face frames I saw, plus the
required extra clearance, they will lose almost 2" in drawer width.

Only a well informed (by you) client, and his budget, can tell you
which way to go.

Hopefully all this back and forth has been helpful in that regard.


It has absolutely been very helpful. I knew if certain guys got
involved it would be.
This is the only reason I still use this archaic dinosaur of a
newsgroup. :-) I know there are about a half-dozen guys who actually
know WTF they're talking about and give some great advice based on
actual working experience.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 2/4/2016 11:18 AM, dadiOH wrote:
Swingman wrote:

Example of the shoddy work I'm talking about these days. The above was
in a 6 year old, $2.1m home, the trim on these cabinets fell off when
the painters were re-staining, and they simply could not have been
used, "as built" for what the client wanted to do.

OK, customers (almost all) wouldn't be able to tell good from bad, most go
only by general appearance, but the GC would. As would whatever sub made
the cabinets. So why such crummy work in a rather high end home? Were they
(GC and sub) just greedy thieves? Incompetent?

In many cases, ALL the above.

Plus many builder's simply do not do the level of supervision necessary
to get an acceptable job out of the semi-skilled labor pool available in
many locations, and particularly during times of great demand.

And, no secret that many "tract" and "spec" home builders prefer not to
put money where it can't be seen.

The cabinets throughout that house looked great ... and functioned just
long enough to sell.


It does point up a problem that most - including me - have in finding
knowledgable, competent contractors at a fair price. IME, admittedly not
great, probably at least 50% are either looking to buy a yacht courtesy of
me, or don't know up from down. It can be tough finding a good one. Yes,
one can check referrals; trouble is, those past customers really aren't
qualified to judge good from bad...unless there was a major screwup, they
probably will say that all is fine. Which is why when one DOES find a good
one - such as you or Leon or others here - one should treasure them.

Amen, brother!

Neither Leon, Robert (nor Mike, as he is finding out) really need to
advertise, and likely have to constantly turn work away ... all
attributable mostly to a single trait:

We care about doing the job properly, even to point of losing money if
necessary to so, and we must be able to walk away at the finish knowing
we've provided a first class job.

That's how simple it is.

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On 2/4/2016 11:21 AM, -MIKE- wrote:

Great picture and idea!

Can take credit for the SketchUp drawing, but not the idea ... pretty
much a time honored method of retrofitting drawers in existing cabinetry.

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On 2/4/16 11:34 AM, Swingman wrote:
On 2/4/2016 11:18 AM, dadiOH wrote:
Swingman wrote:

Example of the shoddy work I'm talking about these days. The
above was in a 6 year old, $2.1m home, the trim on these cabinets
fell off when the painters were re-staining, and they simply
could not have been used, "as built" for what the client wanted
to do.

OK, customers (almost all) wouldn't be able to tell good from bad,
most go only by general appearance, but the GC would. As would
whatever sub made the cabinets. So why such crummy work in a
rather high end home? Were they (GC and sub) just greedy thieves?
Incompetent?

In many cases, ALL the above.

Plus many builder's simply do not do the level of supervision
necessary to get an acceptable job out of the semi-skilled labor pool
available in many locations, and particularly during times of great
demand.

And, no secret that many "tract" and "spec" home builders prefer not
to put money where it can't be seen.

The cabinets throughout that house looked great ... and functioned
just long enough to sell.


I've already told the stories of the $650k+ homes around here with
horrible, particleboard, lowest-end cabinets throughout the home.

Yesterday I was in the home of a new client, on the way out I was
presented with a "if you have a sec, could you look at this?"
In the master suite of this $1.3million home there is a his & hers
walk-in closet that I swear is bigger than my first apartment, which was
outfitted floor to ceiling with nooks, crannies, drawers, cubbies,
racks, and hanging bars, by California Closets. All particleboard
laminated with Formica and wood-grain stickers. All the drawer fronts
are falling off one-by-one, not because of the inherent flaws in the
building materials, but because the "skilled laborer" used drywall
screws to attach them to the drawer boxes.

I have an idea what California Closets charges for a behemoth install
like that and they were to cheap or too lazy to buy some good drawer
front screws designed for particleboard.

We live in a Walmart/Ikea/Wayfair age in which sheep are sold in wolves'
clothing and most people don't know or even care about the difference
between a California Closet installation and what one of us would do.
Until we are brought in to fix it all at a much higher rate. :-)



It does point up a problem that most - including me - have in
finding knowledgable, competent contractors at a fair price. IME,
admittedly not great, probably at least 50% are either looking to
buy a yacht courtesy of me, or don't know up from down. It can be
tough finding a good one. Yes, one can check referrals; trouble is,
those past customers really aren't qualified to judge good from
bad...unless there was a major screwup, they probably will say that
all is fine. Which is why when one DOES find a good one - such as
you or Leon or others here - one should treasure them.

Amen, brother!

Neither Leon, Robert (nor Mike, as he is finding out) really need to
advertise, and likely have to constantly turn work away ... all
attributable mostly to a single trait:

We care about doing the job properly, even to point of losing money
if necessary to so, and we must be able to walk away at the finish
knowing we've provided a first class job.

That's how simple it is.


Since putting some effort into sustaining this handyman thing, I'm
starting to build up a stable of loyal clients who see the value in that
and appreciate, respect, and even covet the aspects and performance we
bring to a job.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 2/4/2016 11:18 AM, dadiOH wrote:
Swingman wrote:

I did use a box "inserts" for all the drawers on the job below, mainly
due to the fact that the cabinetry (rails and stile nailed together,
totally out of square, and so flimsy that I couldn't guarantee the
client they would hold up under the intended use of holding hundreds
of pounds of paper files):

https://picasaweb.google.com/1113554...?noredirect=1#

Example of the shoddy work I'm talking about these days. The above was
in a 6 year old, $2.1m home, the trim on these cabinets fell off when
the painters were re-staining, and they simply could not have been
used, "as built" for what the client wanted to do.

OK, customers (almost all) wouldn't be able to tell good from bad, most go
only by general appearance, but the GC would. As would whatever sub made
the cabinets. So why such crummy work in a rather high end home? Were they
(GC and sub) just greedy thieves? Incompetent?

I think the real reason that the high dollars homes are sold with crap
cabinets, and low dollar homes too, is because our society has become
very specialized. Students today do not learn what you need to be self
sufficient rather they go to school and focus on one thing. They are
clueless about how to do any kind of repair.
What they see in new homes is pretty but have no idea that pretty does
not equate to quality. Unfortunately specializing in only one field and
not being a little bit knowledgeable about most anything leaves them
vulnerable and therefore are taken advantage of and Sold a load of crap.
Let the buyer beware.

These rich buyers are ignorant of value.


It does point up a problem that most - including me - have in finding
knowledgable, competent contractors at a fair price. IME, admittedly not
great, probably at least 50% are either looking to buy a yacht courtesy of
me, or don't know up from down. It can be tough finding a good one. Yes,
one can check referrals; trouble is, those past customers really aren't
qualified to judge good from bad...unless there was a major screwup, they
probably will say that all is fine. Which is why when one DOES find a good
one - such as you or Leon or others here - one should treasure them.

On 2/4/2016 10:55 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 2/4/16 12:20 AM, Leon wrote:
wrote:
On Wednesday, February 3, 2016 at 6:41:31 PM UTC-6, Swingman wrote:

Boy howdy, did they have to pay through the nose

LOL... no wonder we get along so well. A man truly after my own heart.

I don't like it when I get beat on a job, but I really don't like it
if I
get beat because someone used lesser quality materials, lesser build
quality, and inferior design. Still... it happens, certainly part of
the business.

But one should be aware of consequences if they call me to "fix" the
work
of a contractor that got the job. Pricing on repairs of that type isn't
pretty, but depending on the client's attitude, it can be downright
ugly.

Robert


And exactly why I suggested inserts and shop built. I'm not going to
suffer repairing someone else's screw up.


Maybe I misunderstood, but I thought you were talking about building
smaller cabinet box that would fit inside the existing ones. If that's
correct, I just see that as a heck of a lot more work than cutting down
some spacer blocks and screwing them to the insides of the existing
cabinets.

I believe you understood. BUT for "me" I would rather work with a
guaranteed result of using an insert/box in an existing box/the cabinet
if at all possible. It is worth it to me to work standing up in a shop
with all my tools available and not make quite as much money as hauling
my tools to the location, working with unknowns and unparalleled
cabinets. And that may be more work but work that I prefer to do rather
than test fit, shim, walk out side cut, return and do over and over.
and the customer is not having to deal with me being there for hours on
hours.
When I build the insert and often drawers, at the shop, I know before I
deliver that the drawers will work properly and the insert only needs a
couple of anchor screws to hold them in place.

It is just a preference thing for me and that may not be feasible in
your case.


But again, I may not understand what you meant.