It seems Bosch has built the better mouse trap.
Their brake doesn't destroy the blade and works on any sized bade,
including dado sets.
I wonder what the lawyer fees amount to? :-)

http://www.woodmagazine.com/blogs/woodworking-blog/2015/03/16/bosch-develops-tablesaw-with-blade-brake-safety/


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 3/16/2015 12:23 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
It seems Bosch has built the better mouse trap.
Their brake doesn't destroy the blade and works on any sized bade,
including dado sets.
I wonder what the lawyer fees amount to? :-)

http://www.woodmagazine.com/blogs/woodworking-blog/2015/03/16/bosch-develops-tablesaw-with-blade-brake-safety/



Cool!

The games that begin may in fact be in the courts. SawStop has
countless patents on their design, including the blade dropping below
the surface.

If they have not infringed on any patents this may in fact be the better
mouse trap. My gut feeling has always been that SawStop drops the blade
so that the belts go slack and the brake only has to stop the mass of
the blade and not the motor too.

Second issue will be if Bosch will try to compete on the same level.
While SawStop has only been around for 15 or so years, and marketing for
the past 7~10 years, they do have proven heavy duty tables saws, the
pro cabinet saw and the industrial cabinet saw. It will be interesting
to see of Bosch targets that market too or if they will stay with their
bench top models.

And if Bosch is successful is this good bye to the belligerent brands
that chose to not incorporate the technology? Saws with this feature,
Bosch and SawStop just might attract ALL of the consumers. Bosch has a
slight advantage in that it offers the safety feature and does not carry
the burden that SawStop has with those that refuse to buy the SawStop
brand regardless of its benefits.

On 3/16/15 12:47 PM, Leon wrote:
On 3/16/2015 12:23 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
It seems Bosch has built the better mouse trap. Their brake doesn't
destroy the blade and works on any sized bade, including dado
sets. I wonder what the lawyer fees amount to? :-)

http://www.woodmagazine.com/blogs/woodworking-blog/2015/03/16/bosch-develops-tablesaw-with-blade-brake-safety/





Cool!

The games that begin may in fact be in the courts. SawStop has
countless patents on their design, including the blade dropping below
the surface.

If they have not infringed on any patents this may in fact be the
better mouse trap. My gut feeling has always been that SawStop drops
the blade so that the belts go slack and the brake only has to stop
the mass of the blade and not the motor too.

Second issue will be if Bosch will try to compete on the same level.
While SawStop has only been around for 15 or so years, and marketing
for the past 7~10 years, they do have proven heavy duty tables saws,
the pro cabinet saw and the industrial cabinet saw. It will be
interesting to see of Bosch targets that market too or if they will
stay with their bench top models.

And if Bosch is successful is this good bye to the belligerent brands
that chose to not incorporate the technology? Saws with this
feature, Bosch and SawStop just might attract ALL of the consumers.
Bosch has a slight advantage in that it offers the safety feature and
does not carry the burden that SawStop has with those that refuse to
buy the SawStop brand regardless of its benefits.


I'll tell you one thing, SawStop needs better demonstrators.

I just happened to walk into our local Woodcraft and there was a SawStop
guy there demonstrating the table saw. He had the blade all the way up
and when he started the saw it started making a horrible grinding
racket, then stopped abruptly. Turns out he has the blade too far up
and it was pressing into the table insert. I didn't know that was
possible but he did it. It tripped the built-in breaker and he couldn't
figure out how to reset it.

About 10 minutes later they figured it out and he did the hotdog trick.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 3/16/2015 1:39 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 3/16/15 12:47 PM, Leon wrote:
On 3/16/2015 12:23 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
It seems Bosch has built the better mouse trap. Their brake doesn't
destroy the blade and works on any sized bade, including dado
sets. I wonder what the lawyer fees amount to? :-)

http://www.woodmagazine.com/blogs/woodworking-blog/2015/03/16/bosch-develops-tablesaw-with-blade-brake-safety/






Cool!

The games that begin may in fact be in the courts. SawStop has
countless patents on their design, including the blade dropping below
the surface.

If they have not infringed on any patents this may in fact be the
better mouse trap. My gut feeling has always been that SawStop drops
the blade so that the belts go slack and the brake only has to stop
the mass of the blade and not the motor too.

Second issue will be if Bosch will try to compete on the same level.
While SawStop has only been around for 15 or so years, and marketing
for the past 7~10 years, they do have proven heavy duty tables saws,
the pro cabinet saw and the industrial cabinet saw. It will be
interesting to see of Bosch targets that market too or if they will
stay with their bench top models.

And if Bosch is successful is this good bye to the belligerent brands
that chose to not incorporate the technology? Saws with this
feature, Bosch and SawStop just might attract ALL of the consumers.
Bosch has a slight advantage in that it offers the safety feature and
does not carry the burden that SawStop has with those that refuse to
buy the SawStop brand regardless of its benefits.


I'll tell you one thing, SawStop needs better demonstrators.

I just happened to walk into our local Woodcraft and there was a SawStop
guy there demonstrating the table saw. He had the blade all the way up
and when he started the saw it started making a horrible grinding
racket, then stopped abruptly. Turns out he has the blade too far up
and it was pressing into the table insert. I didn't know that was
possible but he did it. It tripped the built-in breaker and he couldn't
figure out how to reset it.

About 10 minutes later they figured it out and he did the hotdog trick.


Genius! The manager that opened my local Woodcraft about 7 years ago
give notice and went to work for SawStop early this year. ;~)

On Monday, March 16, 2015 at 12:47:48 PM UTC-5, Leon wrote:


And if Bosch is successful is this good bye to the belligerent brands
that chose to not incorporate the technology? Saws with this feature,
Bosch and SawStop just might attract ALL of the consumers. Bosch has a
slight advantage in that it offers the safety feature and does not carry
the burden that SawStop has with those that refuse to buy the SawStop
brand regardless of its benefits.

Profoundly advantageous safety features may not be enough. I remember all the debate here and everywhere else, mostly built in lies and innuendo that had full grown men crying desperate tears over the loss of civil rights, screaming for the overthrow of the government, whispering about a grass roots backlash against the "jackbooted thugs" etc. Listening to their demands to water the tree of liberty with the blood of tyrants, I got a little fired up myself and was going to join a local (maybe it was... maybe it wasn't....) militia.

Then I realized all I had to do was to pick out the saw I wanted and buy that one, and at least some of my nanny state problems were solved. It was a quick fix.

To me, the hardest thing that Bosch will have to overcome isn't copyright infringement, operating protocols, etc. that are at this point exhaustively researched for challenges by legions of engineers/lawyers. What saved SawStop from being a good idea that went nowhere was the fact that they are damn good saws. I used one to build a small set of cabinets and tables about 6 years ago and the saw I used was marvelous. It was "as shipped" from a local tool supply company and was set up (not tuned up) on site. Had to have been one of the best saws I have ever used. The guy that takes care of it was shop teacher and about 3 years ago he told me that in his high school shop, it was still as well running and accurate as when I used it.

I can see contractor "site saw" like some are making these days getting great benefit from that technology, but don't know that they will be able to hit any kind of workable price point.

As far as a cabinet grade or professional shop grade tool, seems Bosch would be starting from square one. I have never seen Bosch big iron in a woodworking (auto, yes) environment although I have several of their hand tools. I think it would be a long haul to get to the point where they could create and sustain a market for a new professional table saw, but possbily even longer to get to the kind of quality that SawStop is putting out.

Robert

On 3/16/2015 3:20 PM, wrote:
On Monday, March 16, 2015 at 12:47:48 PM UTC-5, Leon wrote:


And if Bosch is successful is this good bye to the belligerent brands
that chose to not incorporate the technology? Saws with this feature,
Bosch and SawStop just might attract ALL of the consumers. Bosch has a
slight advantage in that it offers the safety feature and does not carry
the burden that SawStop has with those that refuse to buy the SawStop
brand regardless of its benefits.

Profoundly advantageous safety features may not be enough. I remember all the debate here and everywhere else, mostly built in lies and innuendo that had full grown men crying desperate tears over the loss of civil rights, screaming for the overthrow of the government, whispering about a grass roots backlash against the "jackbooted thugs" etc. Listening to their demands to water the tree of liberty with the blood of tyrants, I got a little fired up myself and was going to join a local (maybe it was... maybe it wasn't...) militia.

Then I realized all I had to do was to pick out the saw I wanted and buy that one, and at least some of my nanny state problems were solved. It was a quick fix.

Yeah I never could quite understand the fear, no one has to buy a
particular saw, just like no one has to buy a pick up truck, which have
certain government mandated features the automobiles don't. Use saws or
track saws would have been another option. I guess some wanted to be
able to buy a SawStop with out the safety feature....



To me, the hardest thing that Bosch will have to overcome isn't copyright infringement, operating protocols, etc. that are at this point exhaustively researched for challenges by legions of engineers/lawyers. What saved SawStop from being a good idea that went nowhere was the fact that they are damn good saws. I used one to build a small set of cabinets and tables about 6 years ago and the saw I used was marvelous. It was "as shipped" from a local tool supply company and was set up (not tuned up) on site. Had to have been one of the best saws I have ever used. The guy that takes care of it was shop teacher and about 3 years ago he told me that in his high school shop, it was still as well running and accurate as when I used it.

IIRC many years ago I saw a prototype SawStop TS and I could swear it
looked exactly like a Powermatic 2000 other than color. I don't think
Bosch would have too much of an issue building big iron machines as they
are a long established company and they could do as SawStop, Powermatic,
and Jet do, have China/Taiwan build the saw to their specs.
As you said the trick will be getting copyrights. Maybe they have made
a deal with SawStop...






I can see contractor "site saw" like some are making these days getting great benefit from that technology, but don't know that they will be able to hit any kind of workable price point.

I can see that being a great direction to go, contractor saws on job sites.


As far as a cabinet grade or professional shop grade tool, seems Bosch would be starting from square one. I have never seen Bosch big iron in a woodworking (auto, yes) environment although I have several of their hand tools. I think it would be a long haul to get to the point where they could create and sustain a market for a new professional table saw, but possbily even longer to get to the kind of quality that SawStop is putting out.

SawStop did it, but then SawStop really had no competition with these
features...

It will be real interesting to see how this all plays out. If Bosch is
successful there will be no excuse for others not to follow.

On Mon, 16 Mar 2015 15:57:57 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
As you said the trick will be getting copyrights. Maybe they have made
a deal with SawStop...

Or maybe, Bosch has locked up the rest of the open patents so between
them both, they've got it all locked up.

On 3/16/15 12:23 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
It seems Bosch has built the better mouse trap.
Their brake doesn't destroy the blade and works on any sized bade,
including dado sets.
I wonder what the lawyer fees amount to? :-)

http://www.woodmagazine.com/blogs/woodworking-blog/2015/03/16/bosch-develops-tablesaw-with-blade-brake-safety/


Here she is!

http://youtu.be/nbDf2dpQVIY


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On Wed, 18 Mar 2015 16:12:14 -0500, -MIKE-
Here she is!
http://youtu.be/nbDf2dpQVIY

Nice. Any suggested retail price available? And, as someone mentioned
before, I'd love to see a professional model.

On 3/18/15 4:41 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 18 Mar 2015 16:12:14 -0500, -MIKE-
Here she is!
http://youtu.be/nbDf2dpQVIY

Nice. Any suggested retail price available? And, as someone mentioned
before, I'd love to see a professional model.


I saw $1500 MSLP on one site.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 3/18/2015 4:12 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 3/16/15 12:23 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
It seems Bosch has built the better mouse trap.
Their brake doesn't destroy the blade and works on any sized bade,
including dado sets.
I wonder what the lawyer fees amount to? :-)

http://www.woodmagazine.com/blogs/woodworking-blog/2015/03/16/bosch-develops-tablesaw-with-blade-brake-safety/



Here she is!

http://youtu.be/nbDf2dpQVIY




Interesting, and also interesting more expensive than the SawStop by a
few hundred dollars.
The SS seems to have a lot of cool features.

http://www.sawstop.com/table-saws/by...e-saw#overview

On Mon, 16 Mar 2015 12:23:16 -0500
-MIKE- wrote:

Their brake doesn't destroy the blade and works on any sized bade,

SS destrroys the blade when deployed?
didnt know that

A few things come to mind with these "saftey" features.

the study about anti-lock breaking not having the effect that
was expected. There was a reduction in collisions but not anywhere
near industry projections

in other words people took more chances because their car came
with ABS, over confident in the ABS

another thought, I think it's cirrus planes that have a
ballistic chute attached to the airframe***
but you pull that and insurance says plane is a total loss


and yet another is all the extra cost/complexity worth it
has it reduced accidents or do saw operators take more risks

does removing the need to use tools responsibly make more
irresponsible operators



***that feature did sell a lot of planes but all the data on
plane accidents and incidents (and there's a lot of data!)
shows that high 90 percent are due to pilot error
ok sure pull the chute when you screw up and walk away
maybe, not all have survived even after chute deployment
I recall an incident early on when poor guy pulled it
and discovered the hard way that the wind was blowing
25knots at ground level

On 3/18/2015 3:41 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 18 Mar 2015 16:12:14 -0500, -MIKE-
Here she is!
http://youtu.be/nbDf2dpQVIY

Nice. Any suggested retail price available? And, as someone mentioned
before, I'd love to see a professional model.


I'd love to see a professional model too....

A cabinet saw with that feature would be nice. ;-)

On 3/18/2015 8:00 PM, Electric Comet wrote:
On Mon, 16 Mar 2015 12:23:16 -0500
-MIKE- wrote:

Their brake doesn't destroy the blade and works on any sized bade,

SS destrroys the blade when deployed?
didnt know that

Cheap compared to cutting off you hand.

A few things come to mind with these "saftey" features.




does removing the need to use tools responsibly make more
irresponsible operators


Yeah, yeah, yeah, that has been hashed to death with no evidence to
prove it. IMO, you may be more careful knowing a trip could save your
fingers but cost you $200 for cartridge and blade.

On 3/18/15 6:43 PM, Leon wrote:
On 3/18/2015 4:12 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 3/16/15 12:23 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
It seems Bosch has built the better mouse trap. Their brake
doesn't destroy the blade and works on any sized bade, including
dado sets. I wonder what the lawyer fees amount to? :-)

http://www.woodmagazine.com/blogs/woodworking-blog/2015/03/16/bosch-develops-tablesaw-with-blade-brake-safety/


Here she is!

http://youtu.be/nbDf2dpQVIY


Interesting, and also interesting more expensive than the SawStop by
a few hundred dollars. The SS seems to have a lot of cool features.

http://www.sawstop.com/table-saws/by...e-saw#overview

The Bosch had a lot of cool features, too, from what I could tell.
Also, I don't know what the SawStop MSRP is, but I'm thinking they are
like Festool in that they don't allow much discounting by the retailer.

The Bosch may indeed sell for the same as the SawStop out the door.
We shall see.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On Wed, 18 Mar 2015 17:00:58 -0700, Electric Comet
wrote:

On Mon, 16 Mar 2015 12:23:16 -0500
-MIKE- wrote:

Their brake doesn't destroy the blade and works on any sized bade,

SS destrroys the blade when deployed?

And the brake mechanism, about $200 all in. OTOH, when you pull your
hand back, you'll be happy to reach into your wallet with it. ;-)

...

On 3/18/15 8:12 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 18 Mar 2015 17:00:58 -0700, Electric Comet
wrote:

On Mon, 16 Mar 2015 12:23:16 -0500 -MIKE-
wrote:

Their brake doesn't destroy the blade and works on any sized
bade,

SS destrroys the blade when deployed?

And the brake mechanism, about $200 all in. OTOH, when you pull
your hand back, you'll be happy to reach into your wallet with it.
;-)

...


You'll do the same with the Bosch, except you'll be right back to work
after switching the brake firing mechanism around because it works
twice, instead of once. PLUS you won't be out a blade.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On Wed, 18 Mar 2015 20:15:38 -0500, -MIKE-
wrote:

On 3/18/15 8:12 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 18 Mar 2015 17:00:58 -0700, Electric Comet
wrote:

On Mon, 16 Mar 2015 12:23:16 -0500 -MIKE-
wrote:

Their brake doesn't destroy the blade and works on any sized
bade,

SS destrroys the blade when deployed?

And the brake mechanism, about $200 all in. OTOH, when you pull
your hand back, you'll be happy to reach into your wallet with it.
;-)

...


You'll do the same with the Bosch, except you'll be right back to work
after switching the brake firing mechanism around because it works
twice, instead of once. PLUS you won't be out a blade.

Sure. Wake me up when it comes on a real saw.

On 3/18/15 8:55 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 18 Mar 2015 20:15:38 -0500, -MIKE-
wrote:

On 3/18/15 8:12 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 18 Mar 2015 17:00:58 -0700, Electric Comet
wrote:

On Mon, 16 Mar 2015 12:23:16 -0500 -MIKE-
wrote:

Their brake doesn't destroy the blade and works on any sized
bade,

SS destrroys the blade when deployed?

And the brake mechanism, about $200 all in. OTOH, when you pull
your hand back, you'll be happy to reach into your wallet with it.
;-)

...


You'll do the same with the Bosch, except you'll be right back to work
after switching the brake firing mechanism around because it works
twice, instead of once. PLUS you won't be out a blade.

Sure. Wake me up when it comes on a real saw.


I don't know about you, but I don't want to carry my cabinet saw out to
a work site.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 3/18/2015 7:56 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 3/18/15 6:43 PM, Leon wrote:
On 3/18/2015 4:12 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 3/16/15 12:23 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
It seems Bosch has built the better mouse trap. Their brake
doesn't destroy the blade and works on any sized bade, including
dado sets. I wonder what the lawyer fees amount to? :-)

http://www.woodmagazine.com/blogs/woodworking-blog/2015/03/16/bosch-develops-tablesaw-with-blade-brake-safety/



Here she is!

http://youtu.be/nbDf2dpQVIY


Interesting, and also interesting more expensive than the SawStop by
a few hundred dollars. The SS seems to have a lot of cool features.

http://www.sawstop.com/table-saws/by...e-saw#overview

The Bosch had a lot of cool features, too, from what I could tell.
Also, I don't know what the SawStop MSRP is, but I'm thinking they are
like Festool in that they don't allow much discounting by the retailer.

I think you are right about not having wiggle room for pricing but
surprisingly Woodcraft has the SawStop on their site for $1299.00.
http://www.woodcraft.com/Product/862...and-Fence.aspx






The Bosch may indeed sell for the same as the SawStop out the door.
We shall see.

On 3/18/15 10:54 PM, Leon wrote:
On 3/18/2015 7:56 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 3/18/15 6:43 PM, Leon wrote:
On 3/18/2015 4:12 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 3/16/15 12:23 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
It seems Bosch has built the better mouse trap. Their brake
doesn't destroy the blade and works on any sized bade,
including dado sets. I wonder what the lawyer fees amount to?
:-)

http://www.woodmagazine.com/blogs/woodworking-blog/2015/03/16/bosch-develops-tablesaw-with-blade-brake-safety/





Here she is!

http://youtu.be/nbDf2dpQVIY


Interesting, and also interesting more expensive than the SawStop
by a few hundred dollars. The SS seems to have a lot of cool
features.

http://www.sawstop.com/table-saws/by...e-saw#overview

The Bosch had a lot of cool features, too, from what I could tell.
Also, I don't know what the SawStop MSRP is, but I'm thinking they
are like Festool in that they don't allow much discounting by the
retailer.

I think you are right about not having wiggle room for pricing but
surprisingly Woodcraft has the SawStop on their site for $1299.00.
http://www.woodcraft.com/Product/862...and-Fence.aspx



You just have to think the Bosch will sell for that price in the store.
I don't see them going through the trouble to compete with the only
other saw that does the same thing, without competing in price, too.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 3/18/2015 7:00 PM, Electric Comet wrote:
On Mon, 16 Mar 2015 12:23:16 -0500
-MIKE- wrote:

Their brake doesn't destroy the blade and works on any sized bade,

SS destrroys the blade when deployed?
didnt know that

That is not a certainty but I would certainly return the blade to the
manufacturer with details and an estimate to restore. I understand that
some have been repaired.
I am not sure that realistically it will matter one way or another.
Considering the fact that you save a trip to the ER the cost of a new
blade and brake does not even factor in if you screw up.
For certain the Bosch will be less expensive for every owner to perform
the weenie test. ;~)



A few things come to mind with these "saftey" features.

the study about anti-lock breaking not having the effect that
was expected. There was a reduction in collisions but not anywhere
near industry projections

in other words people took more chances because their car came
with ABS, over confident in the ABS

There are those that look at it that way but if you test the limits of
your anti lock brakes by driving more recklessly there is a big
possibility that you are going to do something else that is stupid which
will kill you. I don't buy it myself. I'm not one to look down the
barrel of a gun and pull the trigger because I know the safety is on....



another thought, I think it's cirrus planes that have a
ballistic chute attached to the airframe***
but you pull that and insurance says plane is a total loss

LOL... I bet there are those that would not want that feature to save
their lives to keep from totaling the airplane..


and yet another is all the extra cost/complexity worth it
has it reduced accidents or do saw operators take more risks

For me absolutely the SawStop was worth the price. 3 table saws ago I
cut half my thumb off on my TS. No one could believe that happened to
ME. I was pretty strict safety.

Unfortunately I am not up on the 1,342,657,345,343,001 possible ways to
harm your self with a TS. I don't believe anyone else is either. Then
add to that no one is perfect and some times we work a little too
long... There are countless reasons. Anyway I can afford it so I
bought it. I really don't want to go to the ER again. FWIW I had
turned my saw off before cutting my thumb. Yes it was a dumb mistake
and one I repeated one year later. It all happened so fast I had no
idea what happened. Fortunately when I repeated the mistake 1 year
later I did not have as much thumb in harms way and only felt the breeze
of the blade as it was coasting down to a stop.




does removing the need to use tools responsibly make more
irresponsible operators

I would say for the vast majority no. For those that throw caution to
the wind, if this does not get them something else will.
And FWIW putting a blade brake on a saw does not guarantee not being harmed.




***that feature did sell a lot of planes but all the data on
plane accidents and incidents (and there's a lot of data!)
shows that high 90 percent are due to pilot error
ok sure pull the chute when you screw up and walk away
maybe, not all have survived even after chute deployment
I recall an incident early on when poor guy pulled it
and discovered the hard way that the wind was blowing
25knots at ground level

On 3/18/2015 8:12 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 18 Mar 2015 17:00:58 -0700, Electric Comet
wrote:

On Mon, 16 Mar 2015 12:23:16 -0500
-MIKE- wrote:

Their brake doesn't destroy the blade and works on any sized bade,

SS destrroys the blade when deployed?

And the brake mechanism, about $200 all in. OTOH, when you pull your
hand back, you'll be happy to reach into your wallet with it. ;-)

...

Wow that should be in Bosch's and SawStops sales pitch.

On 3/18/2015 8:15 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 3/18/15 8:12 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 18 Mar 2015 17:00:58 -0700, Electric Comet
wrote:

On Mon, 16 Mar 2015 12:23:16 -0500 -MIKE-
wrote:

Their brake doesn't destroy the blade and works on any sized
bade,

SS destrroys the blade when deployed?

And the brake mechanism, about $200 all in. OTOH, when you pull
your hand back, you'll be happy to reach into your wallet with it.
;-)

...


You'll do the same with the Bosch, except you'll be right back to work
after switching the brake firing mechanism around because it works
twice, instead of once. PLUS you won't be out a blade.

But as you well know the double use feature will create a false sense of
security. ;~) You know when when you have a flat tire and open the
trunk and realize that the spare is on the ground already. ;~)
The cartridge trips and no worries until you realize that you have
already performed the hot dog demonstration once before. ;~)

It is a cool feature of not damaging the blade but if that feature is
important to you, you have my nod to buy that particular saw to begin
with. It sounds like you already know you are going to need it.

On 3/18/2015 8:56 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 3/18/15 8:55 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 18 Mar 2015 20:15:38 -0500, -MIKE-
wrote:

On 3/18/15 8:12 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 18 Mar 2015 17:00:58 -0700, Electric Comet
wrote:

On Mon, 16 Mar 2015 12:23:16 -0500 -MIKE-
wrote:

Their brake doesn't destroy the blade and works on any sized
bade,

SS destrroys the blade when deployed?

And the brake mechanism, about $200 all in. OTOH, when you pull
your hand back, you'll be happy to reach into your wallet with it.
;-)

...


You'll do the same with the Bosch, except you'll be right back to work
after switching the brake firing mechanism around because it works
twice, instead of once. PLUS you won't be out a blade.

Sure. Wake me up when it comes on a real saw.


I don't know about you, but I don't want to carry my cabinet saw out to
a work site.


No kidding.... I think it was very wise of Bosch to go for the
contractor market as those guys are the ones that spend the most hours
in a day and working in locations that are not great.
Between Bosch and SawStop I think there is going to be faster
acceptance/switch to these saws than the stationary units.

On 3/18/2015 11:06 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 3/18/15 10:54 PM, Leon wrote:
On 3/18/2015 7:56 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 3/18/15 6:43 PM, Leon wrote:
On 3/18/2015 4:12 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 3/16/15 12:23 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
It seems Bosch has built the better mouse trap. Their brake
doesn't destroy the blade and works on any sized bade,
including dado sets. I wonder what the lawyer fees amount to?
:-)

http://www.woodmagazine.com/blogs/woodworking-blog/2015/03/16/bosch-develops-tablesaw-with-blade-brake-safety/






Here she is!

http://youtu.be/nbDf2dpQVIY


Interesting, and also interesting more expensive than the SawStop
by a few hundred dollars. The SS seems to have a lot of cool
features.

http://www.sawstop.com/table-saws/by...e-saw#overview

The Bosch had a lot of cool features, too, from what I could tell.
Also, I don't know what the SawStop MSRP is, but I'm thinking they
are like Festool in that they don't allow much discounting by the
retailer.

I think you are right about not having wiggle room for pricing but
surprisingly Woodcraft has the SawStop on their site for $1299.00.
http://www.woodcraft.com/Product/862...and-Fence.aspx




You just have to think the Bosch will sell for that price in the store.
I don't see them going through the trouble to compete with the only
other saw that does the same thing, without competing in price, too.


It will be interesting to see if the pricing equalizes. But you know
Bosch is a German company like Festool. They may feel that their saw is
worth the extra cash, and it may very well be. It might be smarter to
be a bit more expensive especially if it compares equally to the
SawStop. Someone always sells the same features for more money, it may
as well be Bosch.

On Wed, 18 Mar 2015 23:17:21 -0500
Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

That is not a certainty but I would certainly return the blade to the
manufacturer with details and an estimate to restore. I understand
that some have been repaired.

What happens to the blade?
is it pinched and warped or something more violent


I am not sure that realistically it will matter one way or another.
Considering the fact that you save a trip to the ER the cost of a new
blade and brake does not even factor in if you screw up.

Can't put a price on having all your original appendages
i didn't know how the SS worked other than I saw the gizmo at
the heart of it, the electronic part not the mechanical

There are those that look at it that way but if you test the limits
of your anti lock brakes by driving more recklessly there is a big
possibility that you are going to do something else that is stupid

well they gather mountains of data because that's what insurance
companies do and these were not daredevils just normal drivers
that thought hey I have ABS so i can expect more from this car
it's a subtle thing that showed up after a lot of data

we will never get that data with tablesaws
i think the most important thing is to understand what's really
going on with any tool

people need to stop and think what forces are involved
what might happen if something goes wrong
which direction will it go, etc.

it comes easier to some than to others

LOL... I bet there are those that would not want that feature to
save their lives to keep from totaling the airplane..

no joke there're definitely pilots that see it as an impediment to
honing and keeping real pilot skills

but it sells more planes, funny thing is those planes without a
chute are really nice and much safer than the previous designs
but it comes down to good maintanence with planes

For me absolutely the SawStop was worth the price. 3 table saws ago
I cut half my thumb off on my TS. No one could believe that happened
to ME. I was pretty strict safety.

sory to hear that


Unfortunately I am not up on the 1,342,657,345,343,001 possible ways
to harm your self with a TS. I don't believe anyone else is either.

It's potential to harm is great but it's overblown and I think that
is even a problem for a lot of folks, they fear the table saw and
operating it in fear is not good combo


Then add to that no one is perfect and some times we work a little
too long... There are countless reasons. Anyway I can afford it so
I bought it. I really don't want to go to the ER again. FWIW I had

plus as I've seen you mention it's a well made saw


I would say for the vast majority no. For those that throw caution
to the wind, if this does not get them something else will.
And FWIW putting a blade brake on a saw does not guarantee not being
harmed.

I'm glad you said that because the mindset in the shop or around
power tools is very important

gotta know when to do something with potential for harm
I do most cutting early when I'm fresh but may be a luxury for some

if I'm distracted with something try to deal with it then get back
to the saw

wrote in message
...


SS destroys the blade when deployed?

And the brake mechanism, about $200 all in. OTOH, when you pull your
hand back, you'll be happy to reach into your wallet with it. ;-)

I went ahead and ordered a replacement cartridge when I bought my SS -
it was $69 for a 10-inch cartridge and $89 for the 8-inch dado cartridge.
Money well spent I'd say.

Dave in SoTex

"Dave in SoTex" wrote in message
...

wrote in message
...


SS destroys the blade when deployed?

And the brake mechanism, about $200 all in. OTOH, when you pull your
hand back, you'll be happy to reach into your wallet with it. ;-)

I went ahead and ordered a replacement cartridge when I bought my SS -
it was $69 for a 10-inch cartridge and $89 for the 8-inch dado cartridge.
Money well spent I'd say.

http://www.woodcraft.com/Product/839...Cartridge.aspx
http://www.woodcraft.com/Product/839...Cartridge.aspx

Om craiglist locally a SS contractors saw

http://carbondale.craigslist.org/tls/4938152999.html

Their brake doesn't destroy the blade and works on any sized bade,

SS destrroys the blade when deployed?

And the brake mechanism, about $200 all in. OTOH, when you pull your
hand back, you'll be happy to reach into your wallet with it. ;-)



The few SawStop mechanisms that I've sold - were all due to
" non personal " contact - ie : wet wood and metal ..
John T.


--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ---

On 3/19/2015 1:06 AM, Electric Comet wrote:
On Wed, 18 Mar 2015 23:17:21 -0500
Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

That is not a certainty but I would certainly return the blade to the
manufacturer with details and an estimate to restore. I understand
that some have been repaired.

What happens to the blade?
is it pinched and warped or something more violent

A spring loaded aluminum brake pad with relief holes drilled in it is
pushed up into the spinning blade. It normally rests less than 1/8" from
the blade and is about 2" long. The holes allow the blade to penetrate
deeply into the aluminum. Also the blade drops below the surface of the
saw releasing tension on belts so that the brake does not have to stop
the momentum of the motor too. Because most quality carbide blades can
very easily cut through aluminum I don't believe the damage is severe
but I certainly would want the manufacturer to do and sign off on the
repair. I suspect a few teeth would have to be replaced and the blade
maybe be re flattened. something I have Forrest check for every time I
send my blades in for resharpening.



I am not sure that realistically it will matter one way or another.
Considering the fact that you save a trip to the ER the cost of a new
blade and brake does not even factor in if you screw up.

Can't put a price on having all your original appendages
i didn't know how the SS worked other than I saw the gizmo at
the heart of it, the electronic part not the mechanical

There are those that look at it that way but if you test the limits
of your anti lock brakes by driving more recklessly there is a big
possibility that you are going to do something else that is stupid

well they gather mountains of data because that's what insurance
companies do and these were not daredevils just normal drivers
that thought hey I have ABS so i can expect more from this car
it's a subtle thing that showed up after a lot of data

we will never get that data with tablesaws
i think the most important thing is to understand what's really
going on with any tool

people need to stop and think what forces are involved
what might happen if something goes wrong
which direction will it go, etc.

Exactly and then expect the unexpected.




it comes easier to some than to others

LOL... I bet there are those that would not want that feature to
save their lives to keep from totaling the airplane..

no joke there're definitely pilots that see it as an impediment to
honing and keeping real pilot skills

LOL yeah that same through process is mentioned with TS safety by some.
And that is a good thing but having a safer saw is part of practicing
saw safety.

but it sells more planes, funny thing is those planes without a
chute are really nice and much safer than the previous designs
but it comes down to good maintanence with planes

For me absolutely the SawStop was worth the price. 3 table saws ago
I cut half my thumb off on my TS. No one could believe that happened
to ME. I was pretty strict safety.

sory to hear that


Unfortunately I am not up on the 1,342,657,345,343,001 possible ways
to harm your self with a TS. I don't believe anyone else is either.

It's potential to harm is great but it's overblown and I think that
is even a problem for a lot of folks, they fear the table saw and
operating it in fear is not good combo

Absolutely. You certainly should not feat operating a TS as this is the
first sign that you may not know all of the possible situations you can
encounter if you are not thinking about what you are doing. OTOH you
should feat what can happen if you are careless.
After I cut my thumb I was more fearful of the saw, up until I almost
cut my thumb again and finally realized exactly took place. Originally
I thought I was cutting a piece of wood and had a kick back. I was
cutting a dado. In actuality I had finished the cut, laid the wood
down, turned the saw off, and was reaching over the spinning blade to
grab the far end of the fence to remove it.

New rule.... don't go near the blade after a cut until you see it stop
spinning. Seems pretty damn reasonable to do this anyway but some of us
learn the hard way. But having said that there are numerous similar
ways to be hurt while not cutting wood.




Then add to that no one is perfect and some times we work a little
too long... There are countless reasons. Anyway I can afford it so
I bought it. I really don't want to go to the ER again. FWIW I had

plus as I've seen you mention it's a well made saw

The industrial version certainly is, there is a lot of cast iron under
the table. A comparison I make is that the SS industrial, being a
cabinet saw too, is that it has about 200 lbs more iron in the trunnion
assembly. It weighs in at about 700lbs with the hydraulic mobile base,
52" capacity fence and out feed rollers.
The SS Professional saw I am sure is every bit as well built as most any
cabinet saw in the same price range. I had a Jet cabinet saw and wanted
to step up to heavier and to a larger/deeper table top in addition to
having the safer features of a riving knife and the blade brake. That
was the only reason I chose the industrial over the professional version.





I would say for the vast majority no. For those that throw caution
to the wind, if this does not get them something else will.
And FWIW putting a blade brake on a saw does not guarantee not being
harmed.

I'm glad you said that because the mindset in the shop or around
power tools is very important

gotta know when to do something with potential for harm
I do most cutting early when I'm fresh but may be a luxury for some

if I'm distracted with something try to deal with it then get back
to the saw

Yes, if you are on a deadline you have to often work past your prime
attention time. I try to never use the TS when some one comes up to
visit me in my garage unless they are actually there to help.

On 3/19/2015 7:44 AM, hubops wrote:


Their brake doesn't destroy the blade and works on any sized bade,

SS destrroys the blade when deployed?

And the brake mechanism, about $200 all in. OTOH, when you pull your
hand back, you'll be happy to reach into your wallet with it. ;-)



The few SawStop mechanisms that I've sold - were all due to
" non personal " contact - ie : wet wood and metal ..
John T.


--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ---



Which reminds me, I need to call SS and inquire into the details of
cutting wet wood. I have cut wet wood and the saw simply shut down
after cutting a few inches. It continued to do this until I used the
over ride switch. But I wonder what is going to happen if I cut into my
aluminum miter fence...

On 3/18/15 11:25 PM, Leon wrote:
On 3/18/2015 8:15 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 3/18/15 8:12 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 18 Mar 2015 17:00:58 -0700, Electric Comet
wrote:

On Mon, 16 Mar 2015 12:23:16 -0500 -MIKE-
wrote:

Their brake doesn't destroy the blade and works on any sized
bade,

SS destrroys the blade when deployed?

And the brake mechanism, about $200 all in. OTOH, when you pull
your hand back, you'll be happy to reach into your wallet with
it. ;-)

...


You'll do the same with the Bosch, except you'll be right back to
work after switching the brake firing mechanism around because it
works twice, instead of once. PLUS you won't be out a blade.

But as you well know the double use feature will create a false sense
of security. ;~) You know when when you have a flat tire and open
the trunk and realize that the spare is on the ground already. ;~)
The cartridge trips and no worries until you realize that you have
already performed the hot dog demonstration once before. ;~)

It is a cool feature of not damaging the blade but if that feature is
important to you, you have my nod to buy that particular saw to
begin with. It sounds like you already know you are going to need
it.


That could be said of the SawStop, too. I have no (hot)dog in this
race, but to me if all other things are equal, the Bosch wins. We won't
know until some of the magazines and websites do some good side-by-side
comparisons which one is a better saw, taking into consideration aspects
other than the safety-brake.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 3/19/2015 7:03 AM, Leon wrote:
On 3/19/2015 7:44 AM, hubops wrote:


Their brake doesn't destroy the blade and works on any sized bade,

SS destrroys the blade when deployed?

And the brake mechanism, about $200 all in. OTOH, when you pull your
hand back, you'll be happy to reach into your wallet with it. ;-)



The few SawStop mechanisms that I've sold - were all due to
" non personal " contact - ie : wet wood and metal ..
John T.


--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ---



Which reminds me, I need to call SS and inquire into the details of
cutting wet wood. I have cut wet wood and the saw simply shut down
after cutting a few inches. It continued to do this until I used the
over ride switch. But I wonder what is going to happen if I cut into my
aluminum miter fence...

A friend of mine has already 'tried that experiment'. He has the
blade/brake combo hanging on his shop wall.


Dan

Dan Coby wrote:
On 3/19/2015 7:03 AM, Leon wrote:
On 3/19/2015 7:44 AM, hubops wrote:


Their brake doesn't destroy the blade and works on any sized bade,

SS destrroys the blade when deployed?

And the brake mechanism, about $200 all in. OTOH, when you pull your
hand back, you'll be happy to reach into your wallet with it. ;-)



The few SawStop mechanisms that I've sold - were all due to
" non personal " contact - ie : wet wood and metal ..
John T.


--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ---



Which reminds me, I need to call SS and inquire into the details of
cutting wet wood. I have cut wet wood and the saw simply shut down
after cutting a few inches. It continued to do this until I used the
over ride switch. But I wonder what is going to happen if I cut into my
aluminum miter fence...

A friend of mine has already 'tried that experiment'. He has the
blade/brake combo hanging on his shop wall.

Gosh, I could have warned him! ; )



Dan

On 3/19/2015 9:32 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 3/18/15 11:25 PM, Leon wrote:
On 3/18/2015 8:15 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 3/18/15 8:12 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 18 Mar 2015 17:00:58 -0700, Electric Comet
wrote:

On Mon, 16 Mar 2015 12:23:16 -0500 -MIKE-
wrote:

Their brake doesn't destroy the blade and works on any sized
bade,

SS destrroys the blade when deployed?

And the brake mechanism, about $200 all in. OTOH, when you pull
your hand back, you'll be happy to reach into your wallet with
it. ;-)

...


You'll do the same with the Bosch, except you'll be right back to
work after switching the brake firing mechanism around because it
works twice, instead of once. PLUS you won't be out a blade.

But as you well know the double use feature will create a false sense
of security. ;~) You know when when you have a flat tire and open
the trunk and realize that the spare is on the ground already. ;~)
The cartridge trips and no worries until you realize that you have
already performed the hot dog demonstration once before. ;~)

It is a cool feature of not damaging the blade but if that feature is
important to you, you have my nod to buy that particular saw to
begin with. It sounds like you already know you are going to need
it.


That could be said of the SawStop, too. I have no (hot)dog in this
race, but to me if all other things are equal, the Bosch wins. We won't
know until some of the magazines and websites do some good side-by-side
comparisons which one is a better saw, taking into consideration aspects
other than the safety-brake.


I was just kidding. ;~)

On Wed, 18 Mar 2015 17:00:58 -0700, Electric Comet wrote:

SS destrroys the blade when deployed?
didnt know that

It works by firing a block of aluminum up into the blade. It'd take one
heck of a sturdy blade to survive that! Even getting the block of
aluminum off of the blade is a bear.

On Wed, 18 Mar 2015 20:36:38 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that has been hashed to death with no evidence to
prove it. IMO, you may be more careful knowing a trip could save your
fingers but cost you $200 for cartridge and blade.

This entire topic has been hashed to death! Couldn't you all just refer
folks to the posts you made the last time Sawstop was mentioned?

On 3/19/2015 12:18 PM, Larry Blanchard wrote:
On Wed, 18 Mar 2015 20:36:38 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that has been hashed to death with no evidence to
prove it. IMO, you may be more careful knowing a trip could save your
fingers but cost you $200 for cartridge and blade.

This entire topic has been hashed to death! Couldn't you all just refer
folks to the posts you made the last time Sawstop was mentioned?



So has the entire topic of woodworking. This is current and well worth
repeating if some one is interested.

If I hear of another comment about the ancient art of hand planing,
which has been discussed for hundreds of years I'm..... ;~)