On 3/19/2015 12:15 PM, Larry Blanchard wrote:
On Wed, 18 Mar 2015 17:00:58 -0700, Electric Comet wrote:

SS destrroys the blade when deployed?
didnt know that

It works by firing a block of aluminum up into the blade. It'd take one
heck of a sturdy blade to survive that! Even getting the block of
aluminum off of the blade is a bear.



Ok, to be completely honest as to how this works the aluminum block is
not fired. It is under spring tension and held in place by a fusable
link. When the machine detects skin contact an electrical charge is
sent to melt the fusable link and the spring pushes the aluminum part of
the brake into the blade. The rotation of the blade does the rest, it
naturally cuts and jams into the block like it would into a piece of wood.

I have yet to see a blade destroy itself after this event, and I have
seen it happen many times in demonstrations. Certainly the blade is
damaged to some extent and may certainly not be worth repairing but is a
far cry from being non survivable or destroyed.

There are several pictures here of a blade that was used in the test. I
don't see anything wrong with the blade but I certainly would want it to
be checked out before returning it to normal use.

http://www.newwoodworker.com/reviews/sawstop2.html

If you google sawstop blade brake and click on images there will be
numerous images of blades imedded in the brake and and after the brake
was removed. None that I can see is even missing a carbide tooth. But
again I would certainly want to have the blade checked out before reusing.

Now having said all of this the force of the motor is gone when the
blade drops and the brake trips so I am certain that this minimizes
damage to both the blade and brake.


And from the expert advice at the SawStop FAQ web site,

Can the blade be reused if the safety system brake is activated?
When the safety system activates, it will often damage one to two teeth
on the blade. It is usually cost-effective to have high-quality blades
repaired by a qualified blade sharpening service. However, less
expensive blades should be discarded.

On Wed, 18 Mar 2015 20:56:43 -0500, -MIKE-
wrote:

On 3/18/15 8:55 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 18 Mar 2015 20:15:38 -0500, -MIKE-
wrote:

On 3/18/15 8:12 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 18 Mar 2015 17:00:58 -0700, Electric Comet
wrote:

On Mon, 16 Mar 2015 12:23:16 -0500 -MIKE-
wrote:

Their brake doesn't destroy the blade and works on any sized
bade,

SS destrroys the blade when deployed?

And the brake mechanism, about $200 all in. OTOH, when you pull
your hand back, you'll be happy to reach into your wallet with it.
;-)

...


You'll do the same with the Bosch, except you'll be right back to work
after switching the brake firing mechanism around because it works
twice, instead of once. PLUS you won't be out a blade.

Sure. Wake me up when it comes on a real saw.


I don't know about you, but I don't want to carry my cabinet saw out to
a work site.

I don't either but I solve that problem by carrying the work to the
saw. ;-)

On Thu, 19 Mar 2015 09:03:59 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 3/19/2015 7:44 AM, hubops wrote:


Their brake doesn't destroy the blade and works on any sized bade,

SS destrroys the blade when deployed?

And the brake mechanism, about $200 all in. OTOH, when you pull your
hand back, you'll be happy to reach into your wallet with it. ;-)



The few SawStop mechanisms that I've sold - were all due to
" non personal " contact - ie : wet wood and metal ..
John T.


--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ---



Which reminds me, I need to call SS and inquire into the details of
cutting wet wood. I have cut wet wood and the saw simply shut down
after cutting a few inches. It continued to do this until I used the
over ride switch. But I wonder what is going to happen if I cut into my
aluminum miter fence...

Gee, Leon. Who would do such a thing? ;-)

On 3/19/2015 7:25 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 19 Mar 2015 09:03:59 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 3/19/2015 7:44 AM, hubops wrote:


Their brake doesn't destroy the blade and works on any sized bade,

SS destrroys the blade when deployed?

And the brake mechanism, about $200 all in. OTOH, when you pull your
hand back, you'll be happy to reach into your wallet with it. ;-)



The few SawStop mechanisms that I've sold - were all due to
" non personal " contact - ie : wet wood and metal ..
John T.


--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ---



Which reminds me, I need to call SS and inquire into the details of
cutting wet wood. I have cut wet wood and the saw simply shut down
after cutting a few inches. It continued to do this until I used the
over ride switch. But I wonder what is going to happen if I cut into my
aluminum miter fence...

Gee, Leon. Who would do such a thing? ;-)


That is how you tell if it is aluminum or iron! :~)

Leon wrote:
On 3/19/2015 12:18 PM, Larry Blanchard wrote:
On Wed, 18 Mar 2015 20:36:38 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that has been hashed to death with no evidence to
prove it. IMO, you may be more careful knowing a trip could save your
fingers but cost you $200 for cartridge and blade.

This entire topic has been hashed to death! Couldn't you all just refer
folks to the posts you made the last time Sawstop was mentioned?



So has the entire topic of woodworking. This is current and well
worth repeating if some one is interested.

If I hear of another comment about the ancient art of hand planing,
which has been discussed for hundreds of years I'm..... ;~)

Roland Johnson gave a great 1 hour talk on the art of refurbishing
ancient cast iron hand planes at the woodworking shows. Do you like the
wooden ones or the cast iron ones better? ; )

On Wed, 18 Mar 2015 23:28:50 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 3/18/2015 8:56 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 3/18/15 8:55 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 18 Mar 2015 20:15:38 -0500, -MIKE-
wrote:

On 3/18/15 8:12 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 18 Mar 2015 17:00:58 -0700, Electric Comet
wrote:

On Mon, 16 Mar 2015 12:23:16 -0500 -MIKE-
wrote:

Their brake doesn't destroy the blade and works on any sized
bade,

SS destrroys the blade when deployed?

And the brake mechanism, about $200 all in. OTOH, when you pull
your hand back, you'll be happy to reach into your wallet with it.
;-)

...


You'll do the same with the Bosch, except you'll be right back to work
after switching the brake firing mechanism around because it works
twice, instead of once. PLUS you won't be out a blade.

Sure. Wake me up when it comes on a real saw.


I don't know about you, but I don't want to carry my cabinet saw out to
a work site.


No kidding.... I think it was very wise of Bosch to go for the
contractor market as those guys are the ones that spend the most hours
in a day and working in locations that are not great.
Between Bosch and SawStop I think there is going to be faster
acceptance/switch to these saws than the stationary units.

Maybe but I haven't seen a table saw at a (new construction) job site
in probably fifty years. The last two homes we've had have been in
new developments, so construction is all around us. Not a table saw
to be heard. ;-) With all of the alternatives, today, why would one
be needed? Construction isn't cabinetmaking, after all.

On 3/21/15 11:09 AM, wrote:
On Wed, 18 Mar 2015 23:28:50 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 3/18/2015 8:56 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 3/18/15 8:55 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 18 Mar 2015 20:15:38 -0500, -MIKE-
wrote:

On 3/18/15 8:12 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 18 Mar 2015 17:00:58 -0700, Electric Comet
wrote:

On Mon, 16 Mar 2015 12:23:16 -0500 -MIKE-
wrote:

Their brake doesn't destroy the blade and works on any sized
bade,

SS destrroys the blade when deployed?

And the brake mechanism, about $200 all in. OTOH, when you pull
your hand back, you'll be happy to reach into your wallet with it.
;-)

...


You'll do the same with the Bosch, except you'll be right back to work
after switching the brake firing mechanism around because it works
twice, instead of once. PLUS you won't be out a blade.

Sure. Wake me up when it comes on a real saw.


I don't know about you, but I don't want to carry my cabinet saw out to
a work site.


No kidding.... I think it was very wise of Bosch to go for the
contractor market as those guys are the ones that spend the most hours
in a day and working in locations that are not great.
Between Bosch and SawStop I think there is going to be faster
acceptance/switch to these saws than the stationary units.

Maybe but I haven't seen a table saw at a (new construction) job site
in probably fifty years. The last two homes we've had have been in
new developments, so construction is all around us. Not a table saw
to be heard. ;-) With all of the alternatives, today, why would one
be needed? Construction isn't cabinetmaking, after all.


Funny, I see them around here all the time.
Mostly flooring guys using them to rip.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 3/21/2015 11:09 AM, wrote:
On Wed, 18 Mar 2015 23:28:50 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 3/18/2015 8:56 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 3/18/15 8:55 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 18 Mar 2015 20:15:38 -0500, -MIKE-
wrote:

On 3/18/15 8:12 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 18 Mar 2015 17:00:58 -0700, Electric Comet
wrote:

On Mon, 16 Mar 2015 12:23:16 -0500 -MIKE-
wrote:

Their brake doesn't destroy the blade and works on any sized
bade,

SS destrroys the blade when deployed?

And the brake mechanism, about $200 all in. OTOH, when you pull
your hand back, you'll be happy to reach into your wallet with it.
;-)

...


You'll do the same with the Bosch, except you'll be right back to work
after switching the brake firing mechanism around because it works
twice, instead of once. PLUS you won't be out a blade.

Sure. Wake me up when it comes on a real saw.


I don't know about you, but I don't want to carry my cabinet saw out to
a work site.


No kidding.... I think it was very wise of Bosch to go for the
contractor market as those guys are the ones that spend the most hours
in a day and working in locations that are not great.
Between Bosch and SawStop I think there is going to be faster
acceptance/switch to these saws than the stationary units.

Maybe but I haven't seen a table saw at a (new construction) job site
in probably fifty years. The last two homes we've had have been in
new developments, so construction is all around us. Not a table saw
to be heard. ;-) With all of the alternatives, today, why would one
be needed? Construction isn't cabinetmaking, after all.

You see plenty of TS's at remodeling jobs and especially ones where
prefab cabs are being torn out and replaced with job built.

On Thursday, March 19, 2015 at 9:59:15 AM UTC-4, Leon wrote:

....snip...
I try to never use the TS when some one comes up to
visit me in my garage unless they are actually there to help.

That reminds of what I told SWMBO many years ago, after she startled me by pounding loudly on the shop door while it was very quiet and I was just standing there thinking.

"If you don't hear the sound of a power tool, please don't pound on the door because it will startle me. If you do hear the sound of a power tool, please don't pound on the door because it will startle me. Being startled when it's quiet is annoying. Being startled when it's noisy is dangerous."

On Sat, 21 Mar 2015 14:23:38 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 3/21/2015 11:09 AM, wrote:
On Wed, 18 Mar 2015 23:28:50 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 3/18/2015 8:56 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 3/18/15 8:55 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 18 Mar 2015 20:15:38 -0500, -MIKE-
wrote:

On 3/18/15 8:12 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 18 Mar 2015 17:00:58 -0700, Electric Comet
wrote:

On Mon, 16 Mar 2015 12:23:16 -0500 -MIKE-
wrote:

Their brake doesn't destroy the blade and works on any sized
bade,

SS destrroys the blade when deployed?

And the brake mechanism, about $200 all in. OTOH, when you pull
your hand back, you'll be happy to reach into your wallet with it.
;-)

...


You'll do the same with the Bosch, except you'll be right back to work
after switching the brake firing mechanism around because it works
twice, instead of once. PLUS you won't be out a blade.

Sure. Wake me up when it comes on a real saw.


I don't know about you, but I don't want to carry my cabinet saw out to
a work site.


No kidding.... I think it was very wise of Bosch to go for the
contractor market as those guys are the ones that spend the most hours
in a day and working in locations that are not great.
Between Bosch and SawStop I think there is going to be faster
acceptance/switch to these saws than the stationary units.

Maybe but I haven't seen a table saw at a (new construction) job site
in probably fifty years. The last two homes we've had have been in
new developments, so construction is all around us. Not a table saw
to be heard. ;-) With all of the alternatives, today, why would one
be needed? Construction isn't cabinetmaking, after all.

You see plenty of TS's at remodeling jobs and especially ones where
prefab cabs are being torn out and replaced with job built.

The above video was clearly of new construction rough carpentry.

On 3/21/2015 5:58 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 21 Mar 2015 14:23:38 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 3/21/2015 11:09 AM, wrote:
On Wed, 18 Mar 2015 23:28:50 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 3/18/2015 8:56 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 3/18/15 8:55 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 18 Mar 2015 20:15:38 -0500, -MIKE-
wrote:

On 3/18/15 8:12 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 18 Mar 2015 17:00:58 -0700, Electric Comet
wrote:

On Mon, 16 Mar 2015 12:23:16 -0500 -MIKE-
wrote:

Their brake doesn't destroy the blade and works on any sized
bade,

SS destrroys the blade when deployed?

And the brake mechanism, about $200 all in. OTOH, when you pull
your hand back, you'll be happy to reach into your wallet with it.
;-)

...


You'll do the same with the Bosch, except you'll be right back to work
after switching the brake firing mechanism around because it works
twice, instead of once. PLUS you won't be out a blade.

Sure. Wake me up when it comes on a real saw.


I don't know about you, but I don't want to carry my cabinet saw out to
a work site.


No kidding.... I think it was very wise of Bosch to go for the
contractor market as those guys are the ones that spend the most hours
in a day and working in locations that are not great.
Between Bosch and SawStop I think there is going to be faster
acceptance/switch to these saws than the stationary units.

Maybe but I haven't seen a table saw at a (new construction) job site
in probably fifty years. The last two homes we've had have been in
new developments, so construction is all around us. Not a table saw
to be heard. ;-) With all of the alternatives, today, why would one
be needed? Construction isn't cabinetmaking, after all.

You see plenty of TS's at remodeling jobs and especially ones where
prefab cabs are being torn out and replaced with job built.

The above video was clearly of new construction rough carpentry.


Well you know, you may not have a complete picture of how all trades
operate everywhere in the country. While I agree that there is less
need for a TS the way homes are built these days true custom homes still
have trimmers and carpenters that use TS's on site. Swingman built a
custom home about 5 years ago and while he and I did prebuild the
kitchen cabinets off site he did have a bench top TS on site. I highly
suspect flooring guys would have one too given the fact that you are
going to have to rip some pieces.
And, both SawStop and Bosch both now have similar saws intended to be
used on construction sites with built in stands that go up and down
stairs. I doubt that either flipped a coin for deciding whether to
target this market with their product or not. And given that, with a
safer portable TS available the tide may change and contractors may
decide to have a TS, which can rip and cross cut, vs. a miter saw that
can only cut to length and a circular saw for ripping.

On Thu, 19 Mar 2015 13:57:19 -0500
Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

Ok, to be completely honest as to how this works the aluminum block
is not fired. It is under spring tension and held in place by a
fusable link. When the machine detects skin contact an electrical
charge is sent to melt the fusable link and the spring pushes the
aluminum part of the brake into the blade. The rotation of the blade
does the rest, it naturally cuts and jams into the block like it
would into a piece of wood.

Interesting implementation
wonder if this idea came from industry to if it's a novel idea/approach



I have yet to see a blade destroy itself after this event, and I have
seen it happen many times in demonstrations. Certainly the blade is
damaged to some extent and may certainly not be worth repairing but
is a far cry from being non survivable or destroyed.

damage is what
bent/warped blade or fractures or

tooth. But again I would certainly want to have the blade checked
out before reusing.

Who would check it out to your satisfaction and what would they charge

I would just try the blade and see if it works

BTW in the bosch video I thought I saw the blade out of balance or
off center when it was restarted
maybe it was just the logo on the blade



Now having said all of this the force of the motor is gone when the
blade drops and the brake trips so I am certain that this minimizes
damage to both the blade and brake.

makes sense but like below depends on the blade

Can the blade be reused if the safety system brake is activated?
When the safety system activates, it will often damage one to two
teeth on the blade. It is usually cost-effective to have high-quality
blades repaired by a qualified blade sharpening service. However,
less expensive blades should be discarded.

a visual inspection and a test run seems adequate

On Wed, 18 Mar 2015 20:36:38 -0400
Ed Pawlowski wrote:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that has been hashed to death with no evidence to
prove it. IMO, you may be more careful knowing a trip could save
your fingers but cost you $200 for cartridge and blade.


No evidence to prove which
That safety features make operators more responsible
or it makes them less responsible


there are mountains of data that show drivers of cars with ABS
were driving more aggressively and taking more risks with
stopping/breaking

operators need to know the machine and what to expect and think
through what to do if the saw does the unexpected

On Thu, 19 Mar 2015 23:50:57 -0400
Bill wrote:

Roland Johnson gave a great 1 hour talk on the art of refurbishing
ancient cast iron hand planes at the woodworking shows. Do you like
the wooden ones or the cast iron ones better? ; )

I have never had or used a wood plane
aren't they usually larger in size so they have enough mass to give
a consistent cut

Electric Comet wrote:


there are mountains of data that show drivers of cars with ABS
were driving more aggressively and taking more risks with
stopping/breaking


Ok - I have to call Bull**** on this one - sorry. I believe there may be
some data that suggests that drivers became more complacent - or more
ignorant with the advent of ABS, but I'm not ready to buy into the claim
that there are mountains of data that show they simply drove more
aggressively. You'll have to defend that assertion a bit more to convince
me. Don't draw conclusions - simply show that data that you say there is
mountains of.

operators need to know the machine and what to expect and think
through what to do if the saw does the unexpected

Agreed.

--

-Mike-

On 3/23/2015 5:11 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Electric Comet wrote:


there are mountains of data that show drivers of cars with ABS
were driving more aggressively and taking more risks with
stopping/breaking


Ok - I have to call Bull**** on this one - sorry. I believe there may be
some data that suggests that drivers became more complacent - or more
ignorant with the advent of ABS, but I'm not ready to buy into the claim
that there are mountains of data that show they simply drove more
aggressively. You'll have to defend that assertion a bit more to convince
me. Don't draw conclusions - simply show that data that you say there is
mountains of.

I kind'a don't believe that the anti lock brakes cause wreckless
behavior either. I bet if you really could analyze "ALL" the
situations, not that which only data was gathered on, it would probably
show that these more modern vehicles with anti lock brakes also have two
to three times more HP than models with out. There is absolutely more
HP on the road today than there probably ever has been. I guarantee you
more HP is going to translate to higher speeds during a crash and if the
vehicle is not physically capable of stopping in a short distance anti
lock brakes most likely will not prevent a crash either. If you removed
the anti lock brakes from all modern cars you most likely would see even
more wrecks than now.

On Mon, 23 Mar 2015 18:11:38 -0400
"Mike Marlow" wrote:

Ok - I have to call Bull**** on this one - sorry. I believe there

Fine by me

On Mon, 23 Mar 2015 17:40:56 -0500
Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

I kind'a don't believe that the anti lock brakes cause wreckless

Reworded it sounds like you misunderstood to begin with

It's a high profile example look it up if you care

the point stands and I stand by it
the safety features that are perceived as eliminating all or
most all the dangers will be tested by the operators
that's human nature


whether that's breaking way later in the case of cars or flying
in weather you'd have avoided without your ballistic chute or
being less mindful of where the blade is on the table saw with
flesh detection
it will be tested

I like ABS brakes and they are a really good idea
I like the flesh detection but don't want it but it's a good idea
and will get better but i still think operators should learn
the basics of the tools and materials and know that safety features
don't replace the need for being mindful of high speed steel



for another case of safety features with lots of data look at NFL
injuries went way up after they started using helmets, etc.
in other words the operators tested the limits
many have paid the price

long winded point is just that safety features can blur the fundamentals

On 3/23/2015 11:15 PM, Electric Comet wrote:
On Mon, 23 Mar 2015 17:40:56 -0500
Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

I kind'a don't believe that the anti lock brakes cause wreckless

Reworded it sounds like you misunderstood to begin with

It's a high profile example look it up if you care

the point stands and I stand by it
the safety features that are perceived as eliminating all or
most all the dangers will be tested by the operators
that's human nature

I don't know of any one that perceives safety equipment, anti lock
brakes, as a way to eliminate all or most all of the dangers.
That is a conclusion by reading results of the collection of just a few
aspects of the reason that there may be more accidents.
What if the data indicated the coloration to HP also. Perhaps with the
same safety equipment with lower HP engines the data would show positive
results. More than likely with out the safety equipment the data would
point to even more accidents.

Maybe our less educated group of new drivers just don't know any better
because they were not taught properly to drive. More money went towards
entertainment.

On 3/23/2015 10:15 PM, Electric Comet wrote:
On Mon, 23 Mar 2015 17:40:56 -0500
Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

I kind'a don't believe that the anti lock brakes cause wreckless

Reworded it sounds like you misunderstood to begin with

It's a high profile example look it up if you care

the point stands and I stand by it
the safety features that are perceived as eliminating all or
most all the dangers will be tested by the operators
that's human nature


whether that's breaking way later in the case of cars or flying
in weather you'd have avoided without your ballistic chute or
being less mindful of where the blade is on the table saw with
flesh detection
it will be tested

I like ABS brakes and they are a really good idea
I like the flesh detection but don't want it but it's a good idea
and will get better but i still think operators should learn
the basics of the tools and materials and know that safety features
don't replace the need for being mindful of high speed steel



for another case of safety features with lots of data look at NFL
injuries went way up after they started using helmets, etc.
in other words the operators tested the limits
many have paid the price

long winded point is just that safety features can blur the fundamentals


It occurs to me to wonder how many people there might be who have become
more aware of their vehicles limitations because of the emphasis on ABS.

Max wrote:


It occurs to me to wonder how many people there might be who have
become more aware of their vehicles limitations because of the
emphasis on ABS.

I would argue that less have become more aware. I would argue that the
technology has created a (false) confidence in them which encourages them to
simply trust in the technology, and drive them further away from really
understanding the limitiations and the dynamics of driving a car. Look at
how it works today - they simply stand on the brake with the trust that the
car will take care of the situation. They don't even understand why pulsing
or pumping a brake is of value.

--

-Mike-

On 3/24/2015 9:50 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Max wrote:


It occurs to me to wonder how many people there might be who have
become more aware of their vehicles limitations because of the
emphasis on ABS.

I would argue that less have become more aware. I would argue that the
technology has created a (false) confidence in them which encourages them to
simply trust in the technology, and drive them further away from really
understanding the limitiations and the dynamics of driving a car. Look at
how it works today - they simply stand on the brake with the trust that the
car will take care of the situation. They don't even understand why pulsing
or pumping a brake is of value.


I even wonder how many drivers know what ABS is. ;-)

Max wrote in
eb.com:


I even wonder how many drivers know what ABS is. ;-)


Sure they do... They just decide buying a 6-pack is much easier than going
to the gym to build 6-pack abs.

:-)

Puckdropper
--
Make it to fit, don't make it fit.

On 3/24/2015 10:43 AM, Max wrote:


for another case of safety features with lots of data look at NFL
injuries went way up after they started using helmets, etc.
in other words the operators tested the limits
many have paid the price

long winded point is just that safety features can blur the fundamentals


It occurs to me to wonder how many people there might be who have become
more aware of their vehicles limitations because of the emphasis on ABS.


You mean like the 4WD SUV's that drivers feel can still go 70 mph on an
icy road? Four wheel drive does not mean four wheel stop. Strictly
anecdotal, but I've seen more of them in the ditch than regular cars.

On Monday, March 23, 2015 at 12:13:09 PM UTC-4, Electric Comet wrote:
On Wed, 18 Mar 2015 20:36:38 -0400
Ed Pawlowski wrote:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that has been hashed to death with no evidence to
prove it. IMO, you may be more careful knowing a trip could save
your fingers but cost you $200 for cartridge and blade.


No evidence to prove which
That safety features make operators more responsible
or it makes them less responsible


there are mountains of data that show drivers of cars with ABS
were driving more aggressively and taking more risks with
stopping/breaking


Correlation does not imply causation.

I haven't studied the data, so this is a question, not an argument:

Does the data clearly show that the drivers were being more aggressive *because* the vehicles had ABS?

One could argue that along with ABS came many other technological enhancements related to handling, performance, etc. and those enhancements contributed more to the increase in aggressive driving than the ABS. Better braking systems in general may have contributed to more aggressive driving/braking, but can it be shown that it was specifically the ABS?

On 3/24/2015 11:04 AM, Puckdropper wrote:
Max wrote in
eb.com:


I even wonder how many drivers know what ABS is. ;-)


Sure they do... They just decide buying a 6-pack is much easier than going
to the gym to build 6-pack abs.

:-)

Puckdropper


LOL. I know a few who wouldn't know that kind of abs either.

On 3/24/2015 11:47 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 3/24/2015 10:43 AM, Max wrote:


for another case of safety features with lots of data look at NFL
injuries went way up after they started using helmets, etc.
in other words the operators tested the limits
many have paid the price

long winded point is just that safety features can blur the fundamentals


It occurs to me to wonder how many people there might be who have become
more aware of their vehicles limitations because of the emphasis on ABS.


You mean like the 4WD SUV's that drivers feel can still go 70 mph on an
icy road? Four wheel drive does not mean four wheel stop. Strictly
anecdotal, but I've seen more of them in the ditch than regular cars.

We have a winner, folks.

On Tuesday, March 24, 2015 at 2:29:49 PM UTC-4, Max wrote:
On 3/24/2015 11:47 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 3/24/2015 10:43 AM, Max wrote:


for another case of safety features with lots of data look at NFL
injuries went way up after they started using helmets, etc.
in other words the operators tested the limits
many have paid the price

long winded point is just that safety features can blur the fundamentals


It occurs to me to wonder how many people there might be who have become
more aware of their vehicles limitations because of the emphasis on ABS.


You mean like the 4WD SUV's that drivers feel can still go 70 mph on an
icy road? Four wheel drive does not mean four wheel stop. Strictly
anecdotal, but I've seen more of them in the ditch than regular cars.

We have a winner, folks.

A few years ago SWMBO and I were white knuckling it on a 2 lane highway during a blizzard. We were moving along slow but smooth with the rest of the traffic, doing maybe 20 MPH.

Suddenly, an SUV goes sailing past us on the right hand shoulder, kicking up snow and scaring the crap out of us and others. You could see brakes lights go on as the SUV startled the drivers he was passing. SWMBO and I wished ill upon the SUV driver for being such an A-hole. I'm sure we were not alone.

A few miles down the road, traffic was reduced to a crawl. As we proceeded slowly along with the other cars, we started to hear horns beeping. Then, just ahead, we saw the headlights of the SUV pointing across the highway, while his rear wheels were stuck in the ditch. All of the folks he had passed were honking their horns to say "Hi!" as they drove right by, leaving him in the ditch. I, too, sounded a hardy greeting.

On Tue, 24 Mar 2015 13:05:26 -0700 (PDT)
DerbyDad03 wrote:

All of the folks he had passed were honking their horns to say "Hi!"
as they drove right by, leaving him in the ditch. I, too, sounded a
hardy greeting.

what if it was an emergency
giving birth or about to
or he didn't have a SawStop

On Tue, 24 Mar 2015 11:50:08 -0400
"Mike Marlow" wrote:

the technology has created a (false) confidence in them which
encourages them to simply trust in the technology, and drive them
further away from really understanding the limitiations and the
dynamics of driving a car. Look at how it works today - they simply

this is what the actuarials and ntsb found and my point
when ABS was first introduced the car makers/sellers made a big deal
of it to sell more cars
car buyers knew they had some new brake related safety feature
called ABS

flesh detection will also do the same
i.e. cause over confidence
hopefully it will only lead to maybe an ache or pain and a little
disappointment

I wish a bunch of people would buy a bosch and use it a lot and
report back here

On Tue, 24 Mar 2015 13:47:37 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 3/24/2015 10:43 AM, Max wrote:


for another case of safety features with lots of data look at NFL
injuries went way up after they started using helmets, etc.
in other words the operators tested the limits
many have paid the price

long winded point is just that safety features can blur the fundamentals


It occurs to me to wonder how many people there might be who have become
more aware of their vehicles limitations because of the emphasis on ABS.


You mean like the 4WD SUV's that drivers feel can still go 70 mph on an
icy road? Four wheel drive does not mean four wheel stop. Strictly
anecdotal, but I've seen more of them in the ditch than regular cars.

I had a 4WD pickup when we lived in VT. When it snowed I would tell
my wife that I had 4WD so could drive anywhere. I then told her that
it was an "Off Road" truck, so I could also drive it off the road. It
took her a few times before she understood what I was saying. ;-)

On Tue, 24 Mar 2015 13:05:26 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Tuesday, March 24, 2015 at 2:29:49 PM UTC-4, Max wrote:
On 3/24/2015 11:47 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 3/24/2015 10:43 AM, Max wrote:


for another case of safety features with lots of data look at NFL
injuries went way up after they started using helmets, etc.
in other words the operators tested the limits
many have paid the price

long winded point is just that safety features can blur the fundamentals


It occurs to me to wonder how many people there might be who have become
more aware of their vehicles limitations because of the emphasis on ABS.


You mean like the 4WD SUV's that drivers feel can still go 70 mph on an
icy road? Four wheel drive does not mean four wheel stop. Strictly
anecdotal, but I've seen more of them in the ditch than regular cars.

We have a winner, folks.

A few years ago SWMBO and I were white knuckling it on a 2 lane highway during a blizzard. We were moving along slow but smooth with the rest of the traffic, doing maybe 20 MPH.

Suddenly, an SUV goes sailing past us on the right hand shoulder, kicking up snow and scaring the crap out of us and others. You could see brakes lights go on as the SUV startled the drivers he was passing. SWMBO and I wished ill upon the SUV driver for being such an A-hole. I'm sure we were not alone.

A few miles down the road, traffic was reduced to a crawl. As we proceeded slowly along with the other cars, we started to hear horns beeping. Then, just ahead, we saw the headlights of the SUV pointing across the highway, while his rear wheels were stuck in the ditch. All of the folks he had passed were honking their horns to say "Hi!" as they drove right by, leaving him in the ditch. I, too, sounded a hardy greeting.

I've seen exactly the same with 2WD cars. Once I told my wife that
we'd be seeing him again. Sure 'nuff, about five miles down the
road... Idiots buy all sorts of vehicles.