John Grossbohlin wrote:

"Eric" wrote in message
...

"Bill" wrote in message ...

I took a picture and updated my website tonight for anyone who is
curious whether I really ever do any work!

http://web.newsguy.com/MySite/

Cheers,
Bill

====
How many workbenches is that now? Without checking the reflections in
shiny objects, I see three, so far.

This discussion reminds me of a friend of mine whom I see only
occasionally.... I knew he was a member of my woodworking club years ago
and when I saw him over the years I'd ask what he'd been working on in
his shop. Several times in a row, spread over several years he responded
"nothing at the moment." Then one time he admitted that the only thing
he'd ever made was the shop itself... it's sort of become a tool museum!
A couple years ago, after his parent's passed away, he moved into his
parent's home and sold his own home.

He's slowly been building a new
shop... "to house your tool collection" I asked? ;~)

John


I have read and found to have some basis that people tend to get what
they need out of their activities, not necessarily what others or even
themselves think they need. I hope that your friend was kind enough to
laugh with you. Tool collecting seems like an honorable hobby to me. I
appreciate the way it is intertwined with, and brings about a heightened
respect for history and culture. Of course, in this case it sounds like
your friend has a collection of more modern tools. Still I have never
met a tool collector I didn't enjoy talking with.

Bill

"Bill" wrote in message
...
Puckdropper wrote:

One thing you can try that should be simple and easy is to clamp a 2x on
the stretcher at the proposed distance. Push down on the very end and
see how hard it is to make the bench structure move. You basically have
a lever at that point, although not as simple as described in the
textbooks. *g*

Yes Puck, I have been thinking about the vertical (downward) vector that
needs to be supported. And, that the distance from the leg (fulcrum) of
the origin of that vector relates directly to the force exerted on the leg
by that vector. So if someone sets something heavy right on the edge, I
wouldn't want the table to break or cartwheel.

So at this point, we have 5" of distance past the fulcrum. I'm curious to
do the experiment you suggested and see what it takes to lift the back
legs off of the ground, or perhaps, break 5" off of the apron (s). Wagers?


Everyone knows it is easier to push over a longer pole than a shorter
pole. I would expect excessive horizontal force to result in the
screws/wood breaking loose. Intuitively, I think my pole analogy should
apply to the bench, but you have to accept that the force is being applied
at the feet (due to friction?) to make it work. I think this is correct.
I don't claim to be knowledgable about physics. I am just trying to apply
the basic leverage relation.

Again, you are over thinking this. The purpose of a bench is to USE it.
For a lot of different things. And you will be applying force in many more
different ways then the lever experiment you propose. That is why I am such
a proponent of the heavy bench. They don't move around much. And when you
are drilling, sometimes, the force will be in different directions. And
when you use power tools, that adds an even different kind of dynamic.

I remember, years ago, a small time gym equipment manufacturer. He wanted
to emphasize how strong his equipment was. So he hired a guy who had
trained elephants to stand on his equipment. 40 years ago, I was making
coffee tables. I photographed them with a pickup on top of them. That is
my reference point. If they will support elephants and pickup trucks they
are strong enough. Anything less than that is suspect.

Lee Michaels wrote:
The purpose of a bench is to USE it.
For a lot of different things. And you will be applying force in many
more different ways then the lever experiment you propose. That is why I
am such a proponent of the heavy bench. They don't move around much. And
when you are drilling, sometimes, the force will be in different
directions. And when you use power tools, that adds an even different
kind of dynamic.

Yes, you make a good point. I already performed Puck's experiment anyways.

In the right-hand coordinate system (remember, where the positive x-axis
rotates into the positive y-axis like the fingers on your right hand
with thumb up), force applied in the directions (0,0,-1) and (-1,0,0)
could be applied "safely". It was force in the direction (1, 0,-1) which
created a smooth flipping motion at say about 35 pounds of force, with
no boards on the top. While this is not typical usage for the bench,
as you suggest above, it is a real possibility via drilling, routing or
something and it has the potential to create a nasty accident.

Thus I dismantled the (end) arbors and Titebond-II works just fine. The
cleanup created the nicest shavings I've seen from my modern Stanley
block plane.

Thanks to everyone for their concern, especially maybe tiredofspam who
maybe I took out some frustration on. Sorry, tiredofspam.

Bill



I remember, years ago, a small time gym equipment manufacturer. He
wanted to emphasize how strong his equipment was. So he hired a guy who
had trained elephants to stand on his equipment. 40 years ago, I was
making coffee tables. I photographed them with a pickup on top of them.
That is my reference point. If they will support elephants and pickup
trucks they are strong enough. Anything less than that is suspect.

tiredofspam wrote:
snip


Bill you sound like the generation X kids that need encouragement for
everything they do like even getting up in the morning. Wow great that
you got up... Wow it's great that you screwed four legs on...

How's that Bill? Am I getting better at encouragement?

When I post about things, I would estimate 95% of the time I learn
something. What do you have to prove?

tiredofspam wrote:
Bill I agree with everyone else. The legs are too close together.
I also believe that your stretcher underneath needs to come out on the
side toward your work side. Since you have indicated you are using ply
for the top, your support should go close to the edge, but allow
yourself some clamp space. This will support your work better at the
edge if you wish to hammer a nail into something.

Also With that height, I would use at least 2x6 , maybe a 2x8 stretcher
between your legs (length wise) to prevent racking. You can do so along
the short side too. I would mortise it, but given your abilities, you
might try barrel bolts and bolting them. Or if you have a router
creating a pocket in the stretcher for a nut and bolting them.

After I make a bench I'll practice my joinery. Unfortunately I can't use
plywood due to sensitivity--at least not new stuff. This is not really
intended to be a heavy duty bench. That's another project. But if I get
racking, I will upgrade to a heavier stretcher as you suggested. Thank you.

Bill




Bill you sound like the generation X kids that need encouragement for
everything they do like even getting up in the morning. Wow great that
you got up... Wow it's great that you screwed four legs on...

How's that Bill? Am I getting better at encouragement?

On 6/2/2012 4:25 AM, Bill wrote:
tiredofspam wrote:
Bill, thats ridiculous.

I can cut a pretty good square using my foot to keep the 2x4 off the
ground... It's not hard.

Now get to work..

Thank you for the encouragement! : )

I took a picture and updated my website tonight for anyone who is
curious whether I really ever do any work!

http://web.newsguy.com/MySite/

Cheers,
Bill

On 6/2/2012 6:21 PM, Bill wrote:

Unless you are going to bolt this to the floor or wall, or pile on lots
of sandbags, I would expand the foot print of this thing.

All comments noted and appreciated! I think I'll complete version 1,
since I'm almost there, and proceed accordingly.

Something that you might consider to salvage your completed work:

Use some 1/2" or 3/4" plywood glued/screwed to the outside (or inside of
the legs. (You could go from there and build in some drawers or cubbys
beneath the bench top.

Make a trestle style base of 2x stock to give those legs a slightly
larger footprint and added stability.

Not being critical, but what was going through your head in the planning
stages of this bench that caused you to run the spreaders inside the
legs rather than on the outside?

On Sun, 03 Jun 2012 04:22:10 -0400, Bill wrote:

tiredofspam wrote:
Bill I agree with everyone else. The legs are too close together.
I also believe that your stretcher underneath needs to come out on the
side toward your work side. Since you have indicated you are using ply
for the top, your support should go close to the edge, but allow
yourself some clamp space. This will support your work better at the
edge if you wish to hammer a nail into something.

Also With that height, I would use at least 2x6 , maybe a 2x8 stretcher
between your legs (length wise) to prevent racking. You can do so along
the short side too. I would mortise it, but given your abilities, you
might try barrel bolts and bolting them. Or if you have a router
creating a pocket in the stretcher for a nut and bolting them.

After I make a bench I'll practice my joinery. Unfortunately I can't use
plywood due to sensitivity--at least not new stuff.

Sensitivity to what? Formaldehyde, urea, phenol, or what? Have you
tried the "organic" ply from a Green supplier? (Or bamboo plywood?
It's beautiful.)


This is not really
intended to be a heavy duty bench. That's another project. But if I get
racking, I will upgrade to a heavier stretcher as you suggested. Thank you.

I'd be more worried about tipping, Bill.

--
Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices, under which weak minds
are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call on her
tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the
existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of
the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear.
-- Thomas Jefferson

On 6/3/2012 7:20 AM, Unquestionably Confused wrote:

Not being critical, but what was going through your head in the planning
stages of this bench that caused you to run the spreaders inside the
legs rather than on the outside?

Absolutely nothing structurally wrong with that concept in the least:

http://www.e-woodshop.net/images/Bench.jpg

AAMOF, it has some elements that makes it inherently flexible. Here is
that same bench in use today:

https://picasaweb.google.com/1113554...96966540508658

The only thing questionable about the implementation of Bill's design so
far is the legs possibly being too close together on the ends, relative
to the height, at least for the use he originally expressed.

Working with what he already has, and providing the floor of his shop is
flat enough to allow without too much shimming, this would solve that
problem in a few minutes:

https://picasaweb.google.com/1113554...02209728138530

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

Swingman wrote in
:

*snip*


Working with what he already has, and providing the floor of his shop
is flat enough to allow without too much shimming, this would solve
that problem in a few minutes:

https://picasaweb.google.com/1113554...hopJustStuff#5
749802209728138530


I like it. Nice and easy and it would only use a minimal amount of wood.

Notice how the ends have an angled cut on them? That will be much nicer
to step on or roll something against (Why do they put long cords and
small wheels on vacuums?) than just a straight end.

Puckdropper
--
Make it to fit, don't make it fit.

"Bill" wrote in message
...
John Grossbohlin wrote:

He's slowly been building a new
shop... "to house your tool collection" I asked? ;~)

John


I have read and found to have some basis that people tend to get what they
need out of their activities, not necessarily what others or even
themselves think they need. I hope that your friend was kind enough to
laugh with you. Tool collecting seems like an honorable hobby to me. I
appreciate the way it is intertwined with, and brings about a heightened
respect for history and culture. Of course, in this case it sounds like
your friend has a collection of more modern tools. Still I have never met
a tool collector I didn't enjoy talking with.

Yeah... we both laughed about it. It's not that he isn't interested in
making other things it's more of a time and money thing that goes with
having a house, wife, job, and other responsibilities. His tools are late
model and like new....

I understand your point.... I recall meeting a retired guy at a waterfall
while out bicycling one time. The site had been used for target shooting for
many decades and rumor had it that it was used for same back to the civil
war and before. Anyhow, he had a new Ruger 10/22 and a Ruger .22 semi auto
pistol. He fired one magazine from each, i.e., 10 shots from each, wiped
them down and put them in their cases. To me that seemed odd.... Years
later, having sons, I buy .22s by the case (5,000) and it's not usual to go
through a 1,000 at a range session. ;~) Anyhow, I asked him if he was done
so I could walk around the falls a bit. The discussion continued and he went
on to explain that he had had a life long photography hobby but between the
demands of friends and family for his photography skills it was no longer
pleasurable. He sold all of his photography equipment and bought a couple
..22s as that was something that could be his alone to enjoy. That encounter
was memorable and I try to remember the lesson learned.

That said, sometimes people just need encouragement or guidance to help them
reach a higher level that they themselves desire. For example, recently a
woman I mentored for years was moved to a different department under an
organizational realignment. Let's just say that my training, education and
experience are at a much higher level than that of the department where she
landed. After about two weeks of seeing how things worked in her new
department she came back to me and said "I've never felt so smart in my
whole life!" and "I understand now how far I've come." While working with me
she hadn't quite gained the self confidence that she should have had and it
took exposure to her new assignment for her to understand how far she'd
come. She will become a star there in short order... no doubt about it. This
mentoring experience turned out to be a very good experience for me too
though it was challenging for both of us at times.

John

On 6/3/2012 10:51 AM, John Grossbohlin wrote:


That said, sometimes people just need encouragement or guidance to help
them reach a higher level that they themselves desire. For example,
recently a woman I mentored for years was moved to a different
department under an organizational realignment. Let's just say that my
training, education and experience are at a much higher level than that
of the department where she landed. After about two weeks of seeing how
things worked in her new department she came back to me and said "I've
never felt so smart in my whole life!" and "I understand now how far
I've come." While working with me she hadn't quite gained the self
confidence that she should have had and it took exposure to her new
assignment for her to understand how far she'd come. She will become a
star there in short order... no doubt about it. This mentoring
experience turned out to be a very good experience for me too though it
was challenging for both of us at times.


Great story ...


--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 03 Jun 2012 04:22:10 -0400, Bill wrote:

tiredofspam wrote:
Bill I agree with everyone else. The legs are too close together.
I also believe that your stretcher underneath needs to come out on the
side toward your work side. Since you have indicated you are using ply
for the top, your support should go close to the edge, but allow
yourself some clamp space. This will support your work better at the
edge if you wish to hammer a nail into something.

Also With that height, I would use at least 2x6 , maybe a 2x8 stretcher
between your legs (length wise) to prevent racking. You can do so along
the short side too. I would mortise it, but given your abilities, you
might try barrel bolts and bolting them. Or if you have a router
creating a pocket in the stretcher for a nut and bolting them.

After I make a bench I'll practice my joinery. Unfortunately I can't use
plywood due to sensitivity--at least not new stuff.

Sensitivity to what? Formaldehyde, urea, phenol, or what? Have you
tried the "organic" ply from a Green supplier? (Or bamboo plywood?
It's beautiful.)

For materials that outgas for a while when new I typically put them in a
warm place with a lot of ventilation for a while before bringing them into a
closed environment. That goes for sheet goods, polyester fiber fill quilt
batting my wife uses, new shower curtain liners, carpet type rugs, etc.
About 22 years ago I had flu like symptoms for many months before I figured
out it was chemical out gassing that was making me ill... I threw away the
new pillows for my bed and the symptoms disappeared!

John

Bill here is my workbench
http://imgur.com/a/YbWt2#0

You will see the current and previous workbenches.
Let me explain the current...
Big ass stretchers. I do a lot of hand planing and I didn't want racking.

I see benches as someone provided a link to where the stretcher is on
the top and bottom. That serves no purpose and will rack like crazy.

My stretchers on the ends are big ass dovetails and through mortise and
tenon with wedges.

The big stretchers that on the long sides are made to prevent racking.
And so far I have yet to move this bench the slightest even with heavy
planing. I have clamp space on the top and this bench weighs over
300lbs... it's not going anywhere.

Top: Maple
Legs and stretchers Beech with walnut wedges.


On 6/3/2012 4:22 AM, Bill wrote:
tiredofspam wrote:
Bill I agree with everyone else. The legs are too close together.
I also believe that your stretcher underneath needs to come out on the
side toward your work side. Since you have indicated you are using ply
for the top, your support should go close to the edge, but allow
yourself some clamp space. This will support your work better at the
edge if you wish to hammer a nail into something.

Also With that height, I would use at least 2x6 , maybe a 2x8 stretcher
between your legs (length wise) to prevent racking. You can do so along
the short side too. I would mortise it, but given your abilities, you
might try barrel bolts and bolting them. Or if you have a router
creating a pocket in the stretcher for a nut and bolting them.

After I make a bench I'll practice my joinery. Unfortunately I can't use
plywood due to sensitivity--at least not new stuff. This is not really
intended to be a heavy duty bench. That's another project. But if I get
racking, I will upgrade to a heavier stretcher as you suggested. Thank you.

Bill




Bill you sound like the generation X kids that need encouragement for
everything they do like even getting up in the morning. Wow great that
you got up... Wow it's great that you screwed four legs on...

How's that Bill? Am I getting better at encouragement?

On 6/2/2012 4:25 AM, Bill wrote:
tiredofspam wrote:
Bill, thats ridiculous.

I can cut a pretty good square using my foot to keep the 2x4 off the
ground... It's not hard.

Now get to work..

Thank you for the encouragement! : )

I took a picture and updated my website tonight for anyone who is
curious whether I really ever do any work!

http://web.newsguy.com/MySite/

Cheers,
Bill

Larry Jaques wrote:
On Sun, 03 Jun 2012 04:22:10 -0400, wrote:

tiredofspam wrote:
Bill I agree with everyone else. The legs are too close together.
I also believe that your stretcher underneath needs to come out on the
side toward your work side. Since you have indicated you are using ply
for the top, your support should go close to the edge, but allow
yourself some clamp space. This will support your work better at the
edge if you wish to hammer a nail into something.

Also With that height, I would use at least 2x6 , maybe a 2x8 stretcher
between your legs (length wise) to prevent racking. You can do so along
the short side too. I would mortise it, but given your abilities, you
might try barrel bolts and bolting them. Or if you have a router
creating a pocket in the stretcher for a nut and bolting them.

After I make a bench I'll practice my joinery. Unfortunately I can't use
plywood due to sensitivity--at least not new stuff.

Sensitivity to what? Formaldehyde, urea, phenol, or what? Have you
tried the "organic" ply from a Green supplier? (Or bamboo plywood?
It's beautiful.)

Formaldehyde. Home Depot wells some Formaldehyde-free plywood.
It is lighter-weight, doesn't get rave reviews and it is pricey, but
I'll probably try it in the future anyway. I'll keep my eyes open for
other sources too, as you suggest.

Bill





This is not really
intended to be a heavy duty bench. That's another project. But if I get
racking, I will upgrade to a heavier stretcher as you suggested. Thank you.

I'd be more worried about tipping, Bill.

--
Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices, under which weak minds
are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call on her
tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the
existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of
the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear.
-- Thomas Jefferson

Swingman,

Thank you for making this post/(reply to UC). As I mentioned last night,
I already removed the end arbors and cleaned up the legs.

Attaching the end grain of the legs to an "extended base" would have
been an interesting option, but I have no regret on what I already did.
I've noticed that the design I have for a "big bench" has the pedestal
feature that you and others have described.

Cheers,
Bill


Swingman wrote:
On 6/3/2012 7:20 AM, Unquestionably Confused wrote:

Not being critical, but what was going through your head in the planning
stages of this bench that caused you to run the spreaders inside the
legs rather than on the outside?

Absolutely nothing structurally wrong with that concept in the least:

http://www.e-woodshop.net/images/Bench.jpg

AAMOF, it has some elements that makes it inherently flexible. Here is
that same bench in use today:

https://picasaweb.google.com/1113554...96966540508658


The only thing questionable about the implementation of Bill's design so
far is the legs possibly being too close together on the ends, relative
to the height, at least for the use he originally expressed.

Working with what he already has, and providing the floor of his shop is
flat enough to allow without too much shimming, this would solve that
problem in a few minutes:

https://picasaweb.google.com/1113554...02209728138530

John Grossbohlin wrote:

"Bill" wrote in message
...
John Grossbohlin wrote:

He's slowly been building a new
shop... "to house your tool collection" I asked? ;~)

John


I have read and found to have some basis that people tend to get what
they need out of their activities, not necessarily what others or even
themselves think they need. I hope that your friend was kind enough to
laugh with you. Tool collecting seems like an honorable hobby to me. I
appreciate the way it is intertwined with, and brings about a
heightened respect for history and culture. Of course, in this case it
sounds like your friend has a collection of more modern tools. Still I
have never met a tool collector I didn't enjoy talking with.

Yeah... we both laughed about it. It's not that he isn't interested in
making other things it's more of a time and money thing that goes with
having a house, wife, job, and other responsibilities. His tools are
late model and like new....

I understand your point.... I recall meeting a retired guy at a
waterfall while out bicycling one time. The site had been used for
target shooting for many decades and rumor had it that it was used for
same back to the civil war and before. Anyhow, he had a new Ruger 10/22
and a Ruger .22 semi auto pistol. He fired one magazine from each, i.e.,
10 shots from each, wiped them down and put them in their cases. To me
that seemed odd.... Years later, having sons, I buy .22s by the case
(5,000) and it's not usual to go through a 1,000 at a range session. ;~)
Anyhow, I asked him if he was done so I could walk around the falls a
bit. The discussion continued and he went on to explain that he had had
a life long photography hobby but between the demands of friends and
family for his photography skills it was no longer pleasurable. He sold
all of his photography equipment and bought a couple .22s as that was
something that could be his alone to enjoy. That encounter was memorable
and I try to remember the lesson learned.

Yes, A concise way to remember it is that "People will tend to get what
they 'need' out of their activities." Interesting story.


That said, sometimes people just need encouragement or guidance to help
them reach a higher level that they themselves desire.

I agree. Of course, now you are pushing them from what they 'need' into
what you want. And mere exposure might sometimes substitute for
encouragement and guidance. I recall my first week at my first
programming job as a new graduate. I examined the work that the
experienced person at the desk to my right was doing, and thought to
myself "WOW!, The standards/expectations for documentation,
code-clarity, etc." just went up 2-levels!", and I strived to make that
level my new normal. Of course, one doesn't just automatically produce
at a higher level just by striving to do so, but I think it's a good start!

Cheers,
Bill



For example,
recently a woman I mentored for years was moved to a different
department under an organizational realignment. Let's just say that my
training, education and experience are at a much higher level than that
of the department where she landed. After about two weeks of seeing how
things worked in her new department she came back to me and said "I've
never felt so smart in my whole life!" and "I understand now how far
I've come." While working with me she hadn't quite gained the self
confidence that she should have had and it took exposure to her new
assignment for her to understand how far she'd come. She will become a
star there in short order... no doubt about it. This mentoring
experience turned out to be a very good experience for me too though it
was challenging for both of us at times.

John

John Grossbohlin wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 03 Jun 2012 04:22:10 -0400, Bill wrote:

tiredofspam wrote:
Bill I agree with everyone else. The legs are too close together.
I also believe that your stretcher underneath needs to come out on the
side toward your work side. Since you have indicated you are using ply
for the top, your support should go close to the edge, but allow
yourself some clamp space. This will support your work better at the
edge if you wish to hammer a nail into something.

Also With that height, I would use at least 2x6 , maybe a 2x8 stretcher
between your legs (length wise) to prevent racking. You can do so along
the short side too. I would mortise it, but given your abilities, you
might try barrel bolts and bolting them. Or if you have a router
creating a pocket in the stretcher for a nut and bolting them.

After I make a bench I'll practice my joinery. Unfortunately I can't use
plywood due to sensitivity--at least not new stuff.

Sensitivity to what? Formaldehyde, urea, phenol, or what? Have you
tried the "organic" ply from a Green supplier? (Or bamboo plywood?
It's beautiful.)

For materials that outgas for a while when new I typically put them in a
warm place with a lot of ventilation for a while before bringing them
into a closed environment. That goes for sheet goods, polyester fiber
fill quilt batting my wife uses, new shower curtain liners, carpet type
rugs, etc. About 22 years ago I had flu like symptoms for many months
before I figured out it was chemical out gassing that was making me
ill... I threw away the new pillows for my bed and the symptoms
disappeared!

John

I learned my lesson through manufactured (assemble yourself) furniture.
I was in disbelief that the mere presense of a "piece of furniture"
could "make me sick" (sweating, shortness of breath). But the evidence
was undeniable. It took me a long time to figure out "out-gassing" too.
In our society, it is a truth "swept under the rug". I still can't say
I know all of the products that are "bad" (nor I think, does anyone),
but I proceed now in an aware manner.

Bill

tiredofspam wrote:
Bill here is my workbench
http://imgur.com/a/YbWt2#0

You will see the current and previous workbenches.
Let me explain the current...
Big ass stretchers. I do a lot of hand planing and I didn't want racking.

Very nice looking work. I will similarly place my stetchers, but
(unfortunately) with screws this time. Thank you for the lesson!

Bill



I see benches as someone provided a link to where the stretcher is on
the top and bottom. That serves no purpose and will rack like crazy.

My stretchers on the ends are big ass dovetails and through mortise and
tenon with wedges.

The big stretchers that on the long sides are made to prevent racking.
And so far I have yet to move this bench the slightest even with heavy
planing. I have clamp space on the top and this bench weighs over
300lbs... it's not going anywhere.

Top: Maple
Legs and stretchers Beech with walnut wedges.


On 6/3/2012 4:22 AM, Bill wrote:
tiredofspam wrote:
Bill I agree with everyone else. The legs are too close together.
I also believe that your stretcher underneath needs to come out on the
side toward your work side. Since you have indicated you are using ply
for the top, your support should go close to the edge, but allow
yourself some clamp space. This will support your work better at the
edge if you wish to hammer a nail into something.

Also With that height, I would use at least 2x6 , maybe a 2x8 stretcher
between your legs (length wise) to prevent racking. You can do so along
the short side too. I would mortise it, but given your abilities, you
might try barrel bolts and bolting them. Or if you have a router
creating a pocket in the stretcher for a nut and bolting them.

After I make a bench I'll practice my joinery. Unfortunately I can't use
plywood due to sensitivity--at least not new stuff. This is not really
intended to be a heavy duty bench. That's another project. But if I get
racking, I will upgrade to a heavier stretcher as you suggested. Thank
you.

Bill




Bill you sound like the generation X kids that need encouragement for
everything they do like even getting up in the morning. Wow great that
you got up... Wow it's great that you screwed four legs on...

How's that Bill? Am I getting better at encouragement?

On 6/2/2012 4:25 AM, Bill wrote:
tiredofspam wrote:
Bill, thats ridiculous.

I can cut a pretty good square using my foot to keep the 2x4 off the
ground... It's not hard.

Now get to work..

Thank you for the encouragement! : )

I took a picture and updated my website tonight for anyone who is
curious whether I really ever do any work!

http://web.newsguy.com/MySite/

Cheers,
Bill

Eric wrote:

I think he was hinting about you getting your legs screwed off in the
morning and wanted to hear details??


I filled up a bucket of plane lofty shavings by the time I cleaned up
all of the surfaces that were glued. Both the new surfaces and the
plane shavings possess and possessed, respectively, their own beauty.


Any pics?

You'll have to imagine them.




--

Eric

I always use the mitre saw. I don't cut straight freehand.

--------------
"Bill" wrote in message ...

I had to take a day or two off. I went back to the store for a couple
more 2by4s today. I am basically back to where I was at my last photo
session--except I'm sporting a 24-tooth blade now. I've made a couple
of "perfect" cuts with the speed square, but they are in the minority. I
check my results with a combination square. I think one of my best cuts
occurred when I had lots of "push" behind the saw and barely looked at
the saw guide. I hope your projects are going well!

Bill

Eric wrote:
I always use the mitre saw. I don't cut straight freehand.

Took me a while to figure out you mean a power miter saw!
Yes, one of those definitely would have come in handy.
I have my dad's old (wooden) miter saw in the garage.
I believe they still make them.

I do pretty well with a hand saw--in fact, I switched to cutting
my 2by4s with one--a 20" saw made by Irwin. I can make more accurate
cuts in less time overall than with a CS it seems. I haven't failed to
get it right the first time with a hand saw yet. It marked contrast to
what I have done this week with a CS! : )




--------------
"Bill" wrote in message ...
I had to take a day or two off. I went back to the store for a couple
more 2by4s today. I am basically back to where I was at my last photo
session--except I'm sporting a 24-tooth blade now. I've made a couple
of "perfect" cuts with the speed square, but they are in the minority. I
check my results with a combination square. I think one of my best cuts
occurred when I had lots of "push" behind the saw and barely looked at
the saw guide. I hope your projects are going well!

Bill

"Bill" wrote
--------------
"Bill" wrote in message ...
I had to take a day or two off. I went back to the store for a couple
more 2by4s today. I am basically back to where I was at my last photo
session--except I'm sporting a 24-tooth blade now. I've made a couple
of "perfect" cuts with the speed square, but they are in the minority. I
check my results with a combination square. I think one of my best cuts
occurred when I had lots of "push" behind the saw and barely looked at
the saw guide. I hope your projects are going well!

It only works if you have a sharp saw. And since very few people have the
skills or jigs to sharpen hand saws, that means you end up buying a new saw
when the old one gets dull. But they are good for people who are an
accident waiting to happen with any kind of power tool. I bought several of
the Stanley Fat Max hand saws for folks who should never use power tools. I
even have a couple of them myself. If I need to do very much work, I get
out the power tools. But if I only need to cut one or two small boards, it
is hand saw time. It is just faster and simpler.

Lee Michaels wrote:

If I need to do very
much work, I get out the power tools. But if I only need to cut one or
two small boards, it is hand saw time. It is just faster and simpler.


I agree. I find using a handsaw enjoyable work, in moderation!

On 6/9/2012 2:13 AM, Bill wrote:

I have my dad's old (wooden) miter saw in the garage.
I believe they still make them.

Depending upon the make and the model, take care of it. Some of those
vintage miter saws are getting to be highly prized.

When doing the smaller trim on a kitchen cabinet, like on the visible
end panels with a scribe strip still showing, I much prefer to do the
cutting by hand with my old miter box.

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

"Bill" wrote in message ...

Lee Michaels wrote:

If I need to do very
much work, I get out the power tools. But if I only need to cut one or
two small boards, it is hand saw time. It is just faster and simpler.


I agree. I find using a handsaw enjoyable work, in moderation!

===

With about 20 years experience, each. with a hand saw and mitre saw I found
I have cut myself an infinite amount more times ('mericun ratio) with the
hand saw. I can't ever remember cutting myself with the power unit but
slipped many times with the hand saw and it jumped over my thumb onto my
flesh somewhere. Maybe this is because the power mitre saw scares the hell
out of me. Best $179 I ever spent, thrice (Brit ratio).

--

Eric

"Swingman" wrote in message
...

On 6/9/2012 2:13 AM, Bill wrote:

I have my dad's old (wooden) miter saw in the garage.
I believe they still make them.

Depending upon the make and the model, take care of it. Some of those
vintage miter saws are getting to be highly prized.

When doing the smaller trim on a kitchen cabinet, like on the visible
end panels with a scribe strip still showing, I much prefer to do the
cutting by hand with my old miter box.

=====

The old mitre box does have an advantage. You can pull out an old hack saw
with a fine blade for small trim and very few splits. 80 teeth 10-12" power
saws can't compare.

--

Eric

tiredofspam wrote:
Bill I agree with everyone else. The legs are too close together.
I also believe that your stretcher underneath needs to come out on the
side toward your work side. Since you have indicated you are using ply
for the top, your support should go close to the edge, but allow
yourself some clamp space. This will support your work better at the
edge if you wish to hammer a nail into something.


I posted 3 pics of the virtually-finished result, in case anyone would
like to see them. It's basically Swingman's design stretched to
58"L x27"W x 40"H. The height feels like it was made for me! : )

http://web.newsguy.com/MySite/

Thank you, again, to everyone who helped!

Bill

Looks good. You might want to chamfer the edges of the 4x4 bottoms. So
if you drag the bench you won't splinter the outer edge. Just a little,
not a lot.. it doesn't take much to protect it.
A block plane can do the job, just back it up with another piece of
wood, or plane to the center.. (a little more difficult)

On 6/20/2012 5:48 AM, Bill wrote:
tiredofspam wrote:
Bill I agree with everyone else. The legs are too close together.
I also believe that your stretcher underneath needs to come out on the
side toward your work side. Since you have indicated you are using ply
for the top, your support should go close to the edge, but allow
yourself some clamp space. This will support your work better at the
edge if you wish to hammer a nail into something.


I posted 3 pics of the virtually-finished result, in case anyone would
like to see them. It's basically Swingman's design stretched to
58"L x27"W x 40"H. The height feels like it was made for me! : )

http://web.newsguy.com/MySite/

Thank you, again, to everyone who helped!

Bill

Bill wrote:
tiredofspam wrote:
Bill I agree with everyone else. The legs are too close together.
I also believe that your stretcher underneath needs to come out on
the side toward your work side. Since you have indicated you are
using ply for the top, your support should go close to the edge, but
allow yourself some clamp space. This will support your work better
at the edge if you wish to hammer a nail into something.


I posted 3 pics of the virtually-finished result, in case anyone would
like to see them. It's basically Swingman's design stretched to
58"L x27"W x 40"H. The height feels like it was made for me! : )

http://web.newsguy.com/MySite/

Thank you, again, to everyone who helped!


Glad to see you got it done Bill. Good job. Now get busy and get some
clutter on the top of that thing...

--

-Mike-

On 6/20/2012 4:48 AM, Bill wrote:
tiredofspam wrote:
Bill I agree with everyone else. The legs are too close together.
I also believe that your stretcher underneath needs to come out on the
side toward your work side. Since you have indicated you are using ply
for the top, your support should go close to the edge, but allow
yourself some clamp space. This will support your work better at the
edge if you wish to hammer a nail into something.


I posted 3 pics of the virtually-finished result, in case anyone would
like to see them. It's basically Swingman's design stretched to
58"L x27"W x 40"H. The height feels like it was made for me! : )

http://web.newsguy.com/MySite/

Thank you, again, to everyone who helped!

That should last you a while, good work! This is an effective, simple,
sturdy, versatile, and very inexpensive to make bench design which can
be knocked together in short order.

Only thing I would have done differently, and it can still be done in
ten minutes, it to add two screws to each of the short side stretchers,
into the end grain of the long side stretchers.

Every little bit of added stability adds to the total, and just 16 more
screws won't break the piggy bank.

YMMV ...

Thirty years from now you will still be using that puppy!

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

tiredofspam wrote:
Looks good.
You might want to chamfer the edges of the 4x4 bottoms.

Thank you. I think that's a good suggestion. I appreciate your
comment on a technique to use too. Just thinking about it was a good lesson.

Bill


So
if you drag the bench you won't splinter the outer edge. Just a little,
not a lot.. it doesn't take much to protect it.
A block plane can do the job, just back it up with another piece of
wood, or plane to the center.. (a little more difficult)

On 6/20/2012 5:48 AM, Bill wrote:
tiredofspam wrote:
Bill I agree with everyone else. The legs are too close together.
I also believe that your stretcher underneath needs to come out on the
side toward your work side. Since you have indicated you are using ply
for the top, your support should go close to the edge, but allow
yourself some clamp space. This will support your work better at the
edge if you wish to hammer a nail into something.


I posted 3 pics of the virtually-finished result, in case anyone would
like to see them. It's basically Swingman's design stretched to
58"L x27"W x 40"H. The height feels like it was made for me! : )

http://web.newsguy.com/MySite/

Thank you, again, to everyone who helped!

Bill

Swingman wrote:

Only thing I would have done differently, and it can still be done in
ten minutes, it to add two screws to each of the short side stretchers,
into the end grain of the long side stretchers.

Every little bit of added stability adds to the total, and just 16 more
screws won't break the piggy bank.


Thank you, I will add the 16 screws. I guess screws into end grain may
do a lot better than nails into end grain (which, as you know better
than I do, have little holding power).

Maybe I'll add 1 more screw for a pencil holder!


Thirty years from now you will still be using that puppy!

Nope, it's not going to fall apart! I hope I have an opportunity to
prove you correct, or even incorrect! :-)

On Wed, 20 Jun 2012 07:56:55 -0500, Swingman wrote:

On 6/20/2012 4:48 AM, Bill wrote:
tiredofspam wrote:
Bill I agree with everyone else. The legs are too close together.
I also believe that your stretcher underneath needs to come out on the
side toward your work side. Since you have indicated you are using ply
for the top, your support should go close to the edge, but allow
yourself some clamp space. This will support your work better at the
edge if you wish to hammer a nail into something.


I posted 3 pics of the virtually-finished result, in case anyone would
like to see them. It's basically Swingman's design stretched to
58"L x27"W x 40"H. The height feels like it was made for me! : )

http://web.newsguy.com/MySite/

Thank you, again, to everyone who helped!

That should last you a while, good work! This is an effective, simple,
sturdy, versatile, and very inexpensive to make bench design which can
be knocked together in short order.

Only thing I would have done differently, and it can still be done in
ten minutes, it to add two screws to each of the short side stretchers,
into the end grain of the long side stretchers.

Every little bit of added stability adds to the total, and just 16 more
screws won't break the piggy bank.

How about a 3/4" plywood shelf on top of the stretchers. That would add a lot
of rigidity in side impacts and some heavy stuff stored there would help
stability.

YMMV ...

Thirty years from now you will still be using that puppy!

On 6/20/2012 7:56 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:

How about a 3/4" plywood shelf on top of the stretchers. That would add a lot
of rigidity in side impacts and some heavy stuff stored there would help
stability.

Yep, you're right ... and that's the first thing I added to a similar
one about ten years ago:

http://www.e-woodshop.net/images/Bench.jpg

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

On Wed, 20 Jun 2012 20:43:57 -0500, Swingman wrote:

Yep, you're right ... and that's the first thing I added to a similar
one about ten years ago:
http://www.e-woodshop.net/images/Bench.jpg

Noticed the vise on that bench. Have you ever seen any sag on the end
of the bench from the weight of it?

The reason I'm asking is that I've got a Record 53 vise that I am
going to mount on a 1.3/4" laminated maple bench. I figure it's over
50 lbs. It's considerably wider than the one you've got and I'll have
to move the legs inward at that end at least a foot.

Don't laugh at me, but I'm worried about the end of the bench sagging
form the weight. Am I being paranoid?

On Wed, 20 Jun 2012 20:43:57 -0500, Swingman wrote:

On 6/20/2012 7:56 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:

How about a 3/4" plywood shelf on top of the stretchers. That would add a lot
of rigidity in side impacts and some heavy stuff stored there would help
stability.

Yep, you're right ... and that's the first thing I added to a similar
one about ten years ago:

http://www.e-woodshop.net/images/Bench.jpg

I'm still working off the old (1974?) Home Depot $25 Special made from
1-1/4" termite barf, 4x4 SPF, and pristine 1x4 pineywood.

--
It is easier to fool people than it is to
convince people that they have been fooled.
--Mark Twain

Dave wrote:
On Wed, 20 Jun 2012 20:43:57 -0500, Swingman wrote:

Yep, you're right ... and that's the first thing I added to a similar
one about ten years ago:
http://www.e-woodshop.net/images/Bench.jpg

Noticed the vise on that bench. Have you ever seen any sag on the end
of the bench from the weight of it?

The reason I'm asking is that I've got a Record 53 vise that I am
going to mount on a 1.3/4" laminated maple bench. I figure it's over
50 lbs. It's considerably wider than the one you've got and I'll have
to move the legs inward at that end at least a foot.

Don't laugh at me, but I'm worried about the end of the bench sagging
form the weight. Am I being paranoid?

Never had a problem, and that bench top is just a solid core door with a
Masonite type skin on it, but my vise is not that heavy. I would think that
with sufficient apron mass, and a 4x leg close by to transfer the weight
down to the floor, that 50 lbs would not be of great concern. For a couple
of years I had a Delta Mortiser more or less permanently attached to the
other end and never had a problem with it ... is your vise that heavy?

--
www.ewoodshop.com

Larry Jaques wrote:
On Wed, 20 Jun 2012 20:43:57 -0500, Swingman wrote:

On 6/20/2012 7:56 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:

How about a 3/4" plywood shelf on top of the stretchers. That would add a lot
of rigidity in side impacts and some heavy stuff stored there would help
stability.

Yep, you're right ... and that's the first thing I added to a similar
one about ten years ago:

http://www.e-woodshop.net/images/Bench.jpg

I'm still working off the old (1974?) Home Depot $25 Special made from
1-1/4" termite barf, 4x4 SPF, and pristine 1x4 pineywood.

My bench gets so cluttered that I find myself working on the 3/4" plywood
out feed table most of the time ... unsturdy folding legs and all.

--
www.ewoodshop.com

On Wed, 20 Jun 2012 22:18:44 -0500, Swingman wrote:

Larry Jaques wrote:
On Wed, 20 Jun 2012 20:43:57 -0500, Swingman wrote:

On 6/20/2012 7:56 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:

How about a 3/4" plywood shelf on top of the stretchers. That would add a lot
of rigidity in side impacts and some heavy stuff stored there would help
stability.

Yep, you're right ... and that's the first thing I added to a similar
one about ten years ago:

http://www.e-woodshop.net/images/Bench.jpg

I'm still working off the old (1974?) Home Depot $25 Special made from
1-1/4" termite barf, 4x4 SPF, and pristine 1x4 pineywood.

My bench gets so cluttered that I find myself working on the 3/4" plywood
out feed table most of the time ... unsturdy folding legs and all.

I've only seen and used the vise on my bench in the past ten years.
g You know how it is: each and every horizontal surface is filled
within a minute of being cleared.

--
It is easier to fool people than it is to
convince people that they have been fooled.
--Mark Twain

On 6/20/12 10:18 PM, Swingman wrote:
My bench gets so cluttered that I find myself working on the 3/4" plywood
out feed table most of the time ... unsturdy folding legs and all.


I'm doing that right now.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply