On Sun, 19 Jun 2011 05:17:20 -0400, Bill wrote:

Father Haskell wrote:
On Jun 13, 8:58 pm, wrote:
I don't think I've seen many threads on drawing/sketching here.

A point of view I'm considering is that it's difficult to "design"
anything without being able to sketch. Thus I've developed some interest
in improving my skills in this area. For instance, I might like to
sketch some (bed) back boards to show my wife, or just for my own
amusement. I think that in woodworking that some sketching is
assumed--and while I think I can draw better than those who say they
"can't", I believe I have plenty of room to improve too!

I will distinguish here between "a sketch", "a formal design document
drawing",and "art". My interests also do not extend into color thus far.

There appear to be dozens of books with titles like "How To Draw XXX",
where XXX is horses, cartoons, people, ..., but (for some strangle
reason) none on "furniture"! ; ) Book suggestions welcome (I am
considering "How To Draw What You See"). Until yesterday I never tried
drawing with a graphite pencil softer than a regular #2.

Betty Edwards' Drawing on the Right Side of the Brain
has become a standard text for college drawing classes.
Most 101 level exercises -- such as blind contour, drawing
upside down, drawing only the "negative space" surrounding
the model -- are taken straight from Edwards. This book,
and a lot of practice, will help you draw well enough not to
have to rely on a computer.


I went and read about 100 reviews of Edwards' book again (at Amazon). It
sounds alot like a psychology book--spending a lot of words defending
the "right brain" concept. Comparing their tables of contents, I liked
that of "How To Draw What You See" better than "DOTRSOTB". I'm sure
both books have a lot to offer. I'm not sure what you mean by "draw
well enough not to have to rely on a computer". I can produce a pretty
realistic looking apple on a piece of paper, but I don't think I could
do as well on a computer--even an Apple. ; ) I assume that you meant
for drawing things like furniture. But it seems hard to beat SU for
doing what it does well. I view paper and SU as complementary.

Betty's book challenges you quite a bit. Try drawing an upside down
picture of a rocking chair. It challenges all you know about
perspective. DAMHIKT.


I've haven't had any drawing instruction since high school (and what I
received there was not intensive at all), but I practiced alot back in
those days and I can create 3D looking drawings. If I really give a
drawing my best effort, it will plateau with a decent level of
mediocrity that I am familiar with. I was hoping that with some
knowledge of new ideas, that I might be able to heighten this ceiling. I
ordered the older book "Engineering Drawing" by French and Vierck (sp),
even though it is perhaps not directly related to those we are currently
discussing. I'll probably save most of my drawing/design time for
winter when it's harder to do as much in the shop--though I must admit I
sketched for an hour or so last week and found it quite relaxing.

The last time I was on Oahu, I drove out to the Ho'omaluhia Botanical
Gardens in Kane'ohe and sat in a perfect place and sketched the
beautiful, green, nearly vertical volcanic mountain range in the
background and the tropical trees in the foreground. It was just
great, listening to the different birds, until the damned gardener
came and started mowing the lawn in front of me. 50 minutes of bliss,
anyway. (not his fault)

I saw a tree I was going to lean against while I sketched and walked
toward it. Upon getting closer, I decided against it, choosing a nice
coarse palm trunk instead. The ceiba I had chosen from afar had nasty
spikes on the trunk. http://goo.gl/aVWRI


I've never used AutoCAD. But I know you can get a much bigger monitor
for not too much money these days! I do understand what you are saying
about paper vs computers as I haven't been able to warm up to e-books
yet...

I'm still having a love/hate relationship with them. I think the new
flat screens are better on the eyes than the old CRTs, though. I find
myself reading more online now, and watching Netflix movies streamed
on the computer.

--
Happiness is not a station you arrive at, but a manner of traveling.
-- Margaret Lee Runbeck

On Jun 19, 10:16*am, Larry Jaques
wrote:

Betty's book challenges you quite a bit. *Try drawing an upside down
picture of a rocking chair. It challenges all you know about
perspective. *DAMHIKT.

It challenges you to draw what you actually see, not
what you *think* you see. Turn a rocking chair upside
down, and you no longer have a relevant, though flawed
"model" of it in your brain. Turn the finished drawing
over, and it looks surprisingly more realistic; your
seeing brain is forced to work more like a camera.

Larry Jaques wrote:

Betty's book challenges you quite a bit. Try drawing an upside down
picture of a rocking chair. It challenges all you know about
perspective. DAMHIKT.

To me, it seems like the important part of that is that it forces you to
create an store an image in your brain. It's analogous to trying to play
guitar without really having a tune in your head. By this point I have
managed to learn to do both to some degree. The blues singer Son (Eddie)
House expressed the idea most-eloquently: "Until you've got that song in
your head you ain't gonna do s$#t!" Seriously, I wish I had really
understand that sooner!

It is probably true that in an involved drawing involving many things,
my use of perspective may not be consistent. That's probably one of my
critical areas for improvement. So this might be improved by drawing
upside down, huh?

Maybe it would be fun to share our drawings..anyone interested? We
could pick something interesting. And then we could post links to our
drawings here.


The last time I was on Oahu, I drove out to the Ho'omaluhia Botanical
Gardens in Kane'ohe and sat in a perfect place and sketched the
beautiful, green, nearly vertical volcanic mountain range in the
background and the tropical trees in the foreground. It was just
great, listening to the different birds, until the damned gardener
came and started mowing the lawn in front of me. 50 minutes of bliss,
anyway. (not his fault)

I saw a tree I was going to lean against while I sketched and walked
toward it. Upon getting closer, I decided against it, choosing a nice
coarse palm trunk instead. The ceiba I had chosen from afar had nasty
spikes on the trunk. http://goo.gl/aVWRI

Glad to see the tree is able to stick up for itself! ; )



I've never used AutoCAD. But I know you can get a much bigger monitor
for not too much money these days! I do understand what you are saying
about paper vs computers as I haven't been able to warm up to e-books
yet...

I'm still having a love/hate relationship with them. I think the new
flat screens are better on the eyes than the old CRTs, though. I find
myself reading more online now, and watching Netflix movies streamed
on the computer.

I've watched The Woodwright's Shop online and some YouTube videos. I
haven't tried a movie yet, so you're ahead of me. My wife watches
Netflix movies on her IPad. I'm rather myopic for that sort of thing.

Bill

On Sun, 19 Jun 2011 21:18:49 -0400, Bill wrote:

Larry Jaques wrote:

Betty's book challenges you quite a bit. Try drawing an upside down
picture of a rocking chair. It challenges all you know about
perspective. DAMHIKT.

To me, it seems like the important part of that is that it forces you to
create an store an image in your brain. It's analogous to trying to play
guitar without really having a tune in your head. By this point I have
managed to learn to do both to some degree. The blues singer Son (Eddie)
House expressed the idea most-eloquently: "Until you've got that song in
your head you ain't gonna do s$#t!" Seriously, I wish I had really
understand that sooner!

Grok that.


It is probably true that in an involved drawing involving many things,
my use of perspective may not be consistent. That's probably one of my
critical areas for improvement. So this might be improved by drawing
upside down, huh?

I think she wants to expand our knowledge of perspective. She has all
sorts of interesting little chore drawings in the book. I have the
older version, 1st ed, I believe.


Maybe it would be fun to share our drawings..anyone interested? We
could pick something interesting. And then we could post links to our
drawings here.

Too many women, so little time...


The last time I was on Oahu, I drove out to the Ho'omaluhia Botanical
Gardens in Kane'ohe and sat in a perfect place and sketched the
beautiful, green, nearly vertical volcanic mountain range in the
background and the tropical trees in the foreground. It was just
great, listening to the different birds, until the damned gardener
came and started mowing the lawn in front of me. 50 minutes of bliss,
anyway. (not his fault)

I saw a tree I was going to lean against while I sketched and walked
toward it. Upon getting closer, I decided against it, choosing a nice
coarse palm trunk instead. The ceiba I had chosen from afar had nasty
spikes on the trunk. http://goo.gl/aVWRI

Glad to see the tree is able to stick up for itself! ; )

Ooh, tacky!


I've never used AutoCAD. But I know you can get a much bigger monitor
for not too much money these days! I do understand what you are saying
about paper vs computers as I haven't been able to warm up to e-books
yet...

I'm still having a love/hate relationship with them. I think the new
flat screens are better on the eyes than the old CRTs, though. I find
myself reading more online now, and watching Netflix movies streamed
on the computer.

I've watched The Woodwright's Shop online and some YouTube videos. I
haven't tried a movie yet, so you're ahead of me. My wife watches
Netflix movies on her IPad. I'm rather myopic for that sort of thing.

You'd rather be wooddorking than myoping around, eh?

--
The more passions and desires one has,
the more ways one has of being happy.
-- Charlotte-Catherine

Larry Jaques wrote:
On Sun, 19 Jun 2011 21:18:49 -0400, wrote:

Larry Jaques wrote:

Betty's book challenges you quite a bit. Try drawing an upside down
picture of a rocking chair. It challenges all you know about
perspective. DAMHIKT.

To me, it seems like the important part of that is that it forces you to
create an store an image in your brain. It's analogous to trying to play
guitar without really having a tune in your head. By this point I have
managed to learn to do both to some degree. The blues singer Son (Eddie)
House expressed the idea most-eloquently: "Until you've got that song in
your head you ain't gonna do s$#t!" Seriously, I wish I had really
understand that sooner!

Grok that.

I had to look "grok" up in the dictionary to see which side you were on!
I was someone surprised to find the word.



It is probably true that in an involved drawing involving many things,
my use of perspective may not be consistent. That's probably one of my
critical areas for improvement. So this might be improved by drawing
upside down, huh?

I think she wants to expand our knowledge of perspective. She has all
sorts of interesting little chore drawings in the book. I have the
older version, 1st ed, I believe.

Sounds like fun. I generally like "graded" exercises.



Maybe it would be fun to share our drawings..anyone interested? We
could pick something interesting. And then we could post links to our
drawings here.

Too many women, so little time...

You could even sketch people grok'ing if you want...




The last time I was on Oahu, I drove out to the Ho'omaluhia Botanical
Gardens in Kane'ohe and sat in a perfect place and sketched the
beautiful, green, nearly vertical volcanic mountain range in the
background and the tropical trees in the foreground. It was just
great, listening to the different birds, until the damned gardener
came and started mowing the lawn in front of me. 50 minutes of bliss,
anyway. (not his fault)

I saw a tree I was going to lean against while I sketched and walked
toward it. Upon getting closer, I decided against it, choosing a nice
coarse palm trunk instead. The ceiba I had chosen from afar had nasty
spikes on the trunk. http://goo.gl/aVWRI

Glad to see the tree is able to stick up for itself! ; )

Ooh, tacky!

There I was apologizing, then I noticed... That's really terrible!




I've never used AutoCAD. But I know you can get a much bigger monitor
for not too much money these days! I do understand what you are saying
about paper vs computers as I haven't been able to warm up to e-books
yet...

I'm still having a love/hate relationship with them. I think the new
flat screens are better on the eyes than the old CRTs, though. I find
myself reading more online now, and watching Netflix movies streamed
on the computer.

I've watched The Woodwright's Shop online and some YouTube videos. I
haven't tried a movie yet, so you're ahead of me. My wife watches
Netflix movies on her IPad. I'm rather myopic for that sort of thing.

You'd rather be wooddorking than myoping around, eh?

Maybe you need to type a taping glass???




--
The more passions and desires one has,
the more ways one has of being happy.
-- Charlotte-Catherine

Larry Jaques wrote:

Maybe it would be fun to share our drawings..anyone interested? We
could pick something interesting. And then we could post links to our
drawings here.

Too many women, so little time...


Maybe you can tell them that you draw temporary-tattoos...
That way you can try to kill two birds with one stone... lol Sorry,
maybe I'm getting a little carried away... Actually after I turned off
the computer yesterday, I seated one of my wife's stuffed animals and
sketched it. I hope your subjects are ..emmm... less furry! : )


Bill

On Sun, 19 Jun 2011 23:55:46 -0400, Bill wrote:

Larry Jaques wrote:
On Sun, 19 Jun 2011 21:18:49 -0400, wrote:

Larry Jaques wrote:

Betty's book challenges you quite a bit. Try drawing an upside down
picture of a rocking chair. It challenges all you know about
perspective. DAMHIKT.

To me, it seems like the important part of that is that it forces you to
create an store an image in your brain. It's analogous to trying to play
guitar without really having a tune in your head. By this point I have
managed to learn to do both to some degree. The blues singer Son (Eddie)
House expressed the idea most-eloquently: "Until you've got that song in
your head you ain't gonna do s$#t!" Seriously, I wish I had really
understand that sooner!

Grok that.

I had to look "grok" up in the dictionary to see which side you were on!
I was someone surprised to find the word.

Now read the book. It's marvelous! Everything by Heinlein was
excellent. _Stranger in a Strange Land_


It is probably true that in an involved drawing involving many things,
my use of perspective may not be consistent. That's probably one of my
critical areas for improvement. So this might be improved by drawing
upside down, huh?

I think she wants to expand our knowledge of perspective. She has all
sorts of interesting little chore drawings in the book. I have the
older version, 1st ed, I believe.

Sounds like fun. I generally like "graded" exercises.

As we say in AA: Some are sicker than others.


Maybe it would be fun to share our drawings..anyone interested? We
could pick something interesting. And then we could post links to our
drawings here.

Too many women, so little time...

You could even sketch people grok'ing if you want...

Thet's "focking", sir.


The last time I was on Oahu, I drove out to the Ho'omaluhia Botanical
Gardens in Kane'ohe and sat in a perfect place and sketched the
beautiful, green, nearly vertical volcanic mountain range in the
background and the tropical trees in the foreground. It was just
great, listening to the different birds, until the damned gardener
came and started mowing the lawn in front of me. 50 minutes of bliss,
anyway. (not his fault)

I saw a tree I was going to lean against while I sketched and walked
toward it. Upon getting closer, I decided against it, choosing a nice
coarse palm trunk instead. The ceiba I had chosen from afar had nasty
spikes on the trunk. http://goo.gl/aVWRI

Glad to see the tree is able to stick up for itself! ; )

Ooh, tacky!

There I was apologizing, then I noticed... That's really terrible!

Thank you.


I've never used AutoCAD. But I know you can get a much bigger monitor
for not too much money these days! I do understand what you are saying
about paper vs computers as I haven't been able to warm up to e-books
yet...

I'm still having a love/hate relationship with them. I think the new
flat screens are better on the eyes than the old CRTs, though. I find
myself reading more online now, and watching Netflix movies streamed
on the computer.

I've watched The Woodwright's Shop online and some YouTube videos. I
haven't tried a movie yet, so you're ahead of me. My wife watches
Netflix movies on her IPad. I'm rather myopic for that sort of thing.

You'd rather be wooddorking than myoping around, eh?

Maybe you need to type a taping glass???

Three question marks? Tres gauche.

--
The more passions and desires one has,
the more ways one has of being happy.
-- Charlotte-Catherine

On Mon, 20 Jun 2011 06:56:43 -0400, Bill wrote:

Larry Jaques wrote:

Maybe it would be fun to share our drawings..anyone interested? We
could pick something interesting. And then we could post links to our
drawings here.

Too many women, so little time...


Maybe you can tell them that you draw temporary-tattoos...
That way you can try to kill two birds with one stone... lol Sorry,
maybe I'm getting a little carried away... Actually after I turned off
the computer yesterday, I seated one of my wife's stuffed animals and
sketched it. I hope your subjects are ..emmm... less furry! : )

UNbearded clams are my favorite. (find -that- one in your dictionary)

BTW, Google has a quicker-than-a-dictionary lookup service. Type in
'define: ' and your word (define: grok) and come back with much more
context than a dictionary.

P.S: I thought you didn't do animals...

--
Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball!

Larry Jaques wrote:
On Sun, 19 Jun 2011 23:55:46 -0400, wrote:

Larry Jaques wrote:
On Sun, 19 Jun 2011 21:18:49 -0400, wrote:

Larry Jaques wrote:

Betty's book challenges you quite a bit. Try drawing an upside down
picture of a rocking chair. It challenges all you know about
perspective. DAMHIKT.

To me, it seems like the important part of that is that it forces you to
create an store an image in your brain. It's analogous to trying to play
guitar without really having a tune in your head. By this point I have
managed to learn to do both to some degree. The blues singer Son (Eddie)
House expressed the idea most-eloquently: "Until you've got that song in
your head you ain't gonna do s$#t!" Seriously, I wish I had really
understand that sooner!

Grok that.

I had to look "grok" up in the dictionary to see which side you were on!
I was someone surprised to find the word.

Now read the book. It's marvelous! Everything by Heinlein was
excellent. _Stranger in a Strange Land_

Well, I started by reading about it (at Amazon). Sounds interesting!
"Engineering Drawing" arrived in the mail today. Still need to finish
putting together by BS--and then my lights! So many challenges so
little time... I got side-tracked a little by researching how to move
table saurs 200 miles (that topic has already been adequately discussed
elsewhere).

Cheers,
Bill

On Jun 20, 3:38*pm, Bill wrote:
Larry Jaques wrote:
On Sun, 19 Jun 2011 23:55:46 -0400, *wrote:

Larry Jaques wrote:
On Sun, 19 Jun 2011 21:18:49 -0400, * wrote:

Larry Jaques wrote:

Betty's book challenges you quite a bit. *Try drawing an upside down
picture of a rocking chair. It challenges all you know about
perspective. *DAMHIKT.

To me, it seems like the important part of that is that it forces you to
create an store an image in your brain. It's analogous to trying to play
guitar without really having a tune in your head. By this point I have
managed to learn to do both to some degree. The blues singer Son (Eddie)
House expressed the idea most-eloquently: "Until you've got that song in
your head you ain't gonna do s$#t!" *Seriously, I wish I had really
understand that sooner!

Grok that.

I had to look "grok" up in the dictionary to see which side you were on!
I was someone surprised to find the word.

Now read the book. It's marvelous! Everything by Heinlein was
excellent. *_Stranger in a Strange Land_

Well, I started by reading about it (at Amazon). Sounds interesting!
"Engineering Drawing" arrived in the mail today. Still need to finish
putting together by BS--and then my lights! *So many challenges so
little time... *I got side-tracked a little by researching how to move
table saurs 200 miles (that topic has already been adequately discussed
elsewhere).

Cheers,
Bill

When I need a reference, I mostly refer back to my trusty Fundamentals
Of Engineering Graphics.
Cecil Jensen and Fred Mason
McGraw-Hill Ryerson.
ISBN 0-07-54929

It was previously called Drafting Fundamentals. My original 1967 copy
was replaced in 1988.
It is seriously dated from a CAD perspective, but still a good book
when it is time to come back down to earth.

Robatoy wrote:
On Jun 20, 3:38 pm, wrote:
Larry Jaques wrote:
On Sun, 19 Jun 2011 23:55:46 -0400, wrote:

Larry Jaques wrote:
On Sun, 19 Jun 2011 21:18:49 -0400, wrote:

Larry Jaques wrote:

Betty's book challenges you quite a bit. Try drawing an upside down
picture of a rocking chair. It challenges all you know about
perspective. DAMHIKT.

To me, it seems like the important part of that is that it forces you to
create an store an image in your brain. It's analogous to trying to play
guitar without really having a tune in your head. By this point I have
managed to learn to do both to some degree. The blues singer Son (Eddie)
House expressed the idea most-eloquently: "Until you've got that song in
your head you ain't gonna do s$#t!" Seriously, I wish I had really
understand that sooner!

Grok that.

I had to look "grok" up in the dictionary to see which side you were on!
I was someone surprised to find the word.

Now read the book. It's marvelous! Everything by Heinlein was
excellent. _Stranger in a Strange Land_

Well, I started by reading about it (at Amazon). Sounds interesting!
"Engineering Drawing" arrived in the mail today. Still need to finish
putting together by BS--and then my lights! So many challenges so
little time... I got side-tracked a little by researching how to move
table saurs 200 miles (that topic has already been adequately discussed
elsewhere).

Cheers,
Bill

When I need a reference, I mostly refer back to my trusty Fundamentals
Of Engineering Graphics.
Cecil Jensen and Fred Mason
McGraw-Hill Ryerson.
ISBN 0-07-54929

It was previously called Drafting Fundamentals. My original 1967 copy
was replaced in 1988.
It is seriously dated from a CAD perspective, but still a good book
when it is time to come back down to earth.

I chose an edition (1966) without CAD on purpose, so the 30-40 year old
technology wouldn't distract me from the ideas I selected the book for.
The "constructions" (compass/triangle/straight-edge) are intriguing,
and it looks like the book will show me how to "print" my characters and
digits all over again. Looks like I'll have a 2nd chance to improve my
(lefty) handwriting.

Bill

Larry Jaques wrote:
On Mon, 20 Jun 2011 06:56:43 -0400, wrote:

Larry Jaques wrote:

Maybe it would be fun to share our drawings..anyone interested? We
could pick something interesting. And then we could post links to our
drawings here.

Too many women, so little time...


Maybe you can tell them that you draw temporary-tattoos...
That way you can try to kill two birds with one stone... lol Sorry,
maybe I'm getting a little carried away... Actually after I turned off
the computer yesterday, I seated one of my wife's stuffed animals and
sketched it. I hope your subjects are ..emmm... less furry! : )



BTW, Google has a quicker-than-a-dictionary lookup service. Type in
'define: ' and your word (define: grok) and come back with much more
context than a dictionary.

Nice to know. Thanks.


P.S: I thought you didn't do animals...

I think I said I wasn't interested in *reading* about how to draw them.
in high school I spent a lot of time drawing fish (like trout and bass).
I did an oil painting of a moose back then that I'm still have pride in
(LOL). It's Definitely Not that I draw animals so well. I think I can
eke out an outline of just about anything you put before me at that
level of mediocrity that I described earlier. But I am not seeking to
invest time and energy in sketching beasts and fishes now. Not even
relatives!



--
Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball!

Larry Jaques wrote:

BTW, Google has a quicker-than-a-dictionary lookup service. Type in
'define: ' and your word (define: grok) and come back with much more
context than a dictionary.

If you would care to see something similar, with even more hp behind it,
visit: http://www.wolframalpha.com

Then type in say:

1) integrate sin(x)

or

2) your first name

or

3) population of Lansing

or something else...

Bill wrote:

: I don't think I've seen many threads on drawing/sketching here.

: A point of view I'm considering is that it's difficult to "design"
: anything without being able to sketch. Thus I've developed some interest
: in improving my skills in this area.

Same with me. I can draw and draft pretty easily (old style) for a front-on
view of things, but I am going to brush up on my perspective skills to do
other views. I've played with Sketchup,
but it sems terribly slow for doing an initial quick mock-up of a design idea.
The book I coincidentally bought yesterday seems quite good: Perspective Without Pain, by
Phil Metzger. It's quick and has practice drawingsof various things, including
boxes, tables, arches and cylindrical objects.


: Coincidentally, the newest issue of FWW, which arrived a few days ago,
: contained an article encouraging "old fashioned formal drawing", on $38
: paper (containing perspective lines...), using a a t-square and a
: drawing board and addititional wasted $ for tracing equipment, etc..
: IMO, I almost feel like the author should apologize in the next issue
: and show how to do everything better, faster and cheaper on SketchUp!

I plan to try (once again) to learn Sktchup at some point, but I need to
be convinced it isn't a slow way to get the same result.


: Ironically, I wouldn't say SketchUp is for sketching as I have used the
: term above.

My experience as well.

-- Andy Barss

Andrew Barss wrote:
wrote:

: I don't think I've seen many threads on drawing/sketching here.

: A point of view I'm considering is that it's difficult to "design"
: anything without being able to sketch. Thus I've developed some interest
: in improving my skills in this area.

Same with me. I can draw and draft pretty easily (old style) for a front-on
view of things, but I am going to brush up on my perspective skills to do
other views. I've played with Sketchup,
but it sems terribly slow for doing an initial quick mock-up of a design idea.
The book I coincidentally bought yesterday seems quite good: Perspective Without Pain, by
Phil Metzger. It's quick and has practice drawingsof various things, including
boxes, tables, arches and cylindrical objects.

I hadn't run across that book. Based upon what I was able to browse, it
looks like a really good choice. One reviewer said that the title
"lied", which I don't think is a bad sign in this case.



: Coincidentally, the newest issue of FWW, which arrived a few days ago,
: contained an article encouraging "old fashioned formal drawing", on $38
: paper (containing perspective lines...), using a a t-square and a
: drawing board and addititional wasted $ for tracing equipment, etc..
: IMO, I almost feel like the author should apologize in the next issue
: and show how to do everything better, faster and cheaper on SketchUp!

I plan to try (once again) to learn Sktchup at some point, but I need to
be convinced it isn't a slow way to get the same result.

Well, based upon my experience, it will be ALOT Slower at first. Then,
after watching twenty something video lessons, putting in a few dozen
hours or practice,and maybe reading a book (not necessarily in that
order), it will be ALOT Faster.

I think if you play around with it like a toy, rather than needing to
get work done, it will come faster. For my practice, I regularly used
SU to create a simple house with a roof, door, window, etc., starting
from scratch every time. I suspect I can make one in under a minute
now. One can furnish it from the Google Warehouse. Somehow then it
becomes more time-consuming (resizing, rotating,...), but I'm becoming
more adept at that too. I'm sure I'll learn something new about SU on
every project I try.

I believe Leon and Swingman are the SU experts here. Someone here will
surely try to help you if you get stuck.

Cheers,
Bill




: Ironically, I wouldn't say SketchUp is for sketching as I have used the
: term above.

My experience as well.

-- Andy Barss

On Mon, 20 Jun 2011 15:38:17 -0400, Bill wrote:

Larry Jaques wrote:
On Sun, 19 Jun 2011 23:55:46 -0400, wrote:

Larry Jaques wrote:
On Sun, 19 Jun 2011 21:18:49 -0400, wrote:

Larry Jaques wrote:

Betty's book challenges you quite a bit. Try drawing an upside down
picture of a rocking chair. It challenges all you know about
perspective. DAMHIKT.

To me, it seems like the important part of that is that it forces you to
create an store an image in your brain. It's analogous to trying to play
guitar without really having a tune in your head. By this point I have
managed to learn to do both to some degree. The blues singer Son (Eddie)
House expressed the idea most-eloquently: "Until you've got that song in
your head you ain't gonna do s$#t!" Seriously, I wish I had really
understand that sooner!

Grok that.

I had to look "grok" up in the dictionary to see which side you were on!
I was someone surprised to find the word.

Now read the book. It's marvelous! Everything by Heinlein was
excellent. _Stranger in a Strange Land_

Well, I started by reading about it (at Amazon). Sounds interesting!

Look it up online at your local library.


"Engineering Drawing" arrived in the mail today. Still need to finish
putting together by BS--and then my lights! So many challenges so
little time...

Your wife reads these, does she? giggle


I got side-tracked a little by researching how to move
table saurs 200 miles (that topic has already been adequately discussed
elsewhere).

I wrestled Dina into the bed of my truck with a rope and comealong,
then dropped her the same way. She was lighter, at #300 or so.
Pickup and drop time took maybe ten minutes, including rigging.

--
Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball!

Larry Jaques wrote:




"Engineering Drawing" arrived in the mail today. Still need to finish
putting together by BS--and then my lights! So many challenges so
little time...

Your wife reads these, does she?giggle

Actually, I couldn't get her to look (for some reason)..
As you turn the pages, published in 1966, you can practically feel an
important era being reborn--I was just barely born myself. I have, just
10 feet away, the drafting set pictured in fig. 2.20, page 27. I also
know that my dad would expect me to take darn good care of it! That was
a good lesson from dad: "Take care of your tools". Also they are no good
if you don't know where they a "Put them back when you're through
with them!"

Bill

Bill wrote:

Larry Jaques wrote:




"Engineering Drawing" arrived in the mail today. Still need to finish
putting together by BS--and then my lights! So many challenges so
little time...

Your wife reads these, does she?giggle

If you mean, does she read my newsgroup posts, then no. She has her own
computer and is more of a Facebok than a Usenet user. I crossed over
my normal boundary line in telling her about the green walnut
crotch...that ought to keep her away from here for good! lol ; )


Actually, I couldn't get her to look (for some reason)..
As you turn the pages, published in 1966, you can practically feel an
important era being reborn--I was just barely born myself. I have, just
10 feet away, the drafting set pictured in fig. 2.20, page 27. I also
know that my dad would expect me to take darn good care of it! That was
a good lesson from dad: "Take care of your tools". Also they are no good
if you don't know where they a "Put them back when you're through
with them!"

Bill

On Tue, 21 Jun 2011 04:20:52 -0400, Bill wrote:

Bill wrote:

Larry Jaques wrote:




"Engineering Drawing" arrived in the mail today. Still need to finish
putting together by BS--and then my lights! So many challenges so
little time...

Your wife reads these, does she?giggle

If you mean, does she read my newsgroup posts, then no. She has her own
computer and is more of a Facebok than a Usenet user. I crossed over
my normal boundary line in telling her about the green walnut
crotch...that ought to keep her away from here for good! lol ; )

Har!


Actually, I couldn't get her to look (for some reason)..
As you turn the pages, published in 1966, you can practically feel an
important era being reborn--I was just barely born myself. I have, just
10 feet away, the drafting set pictured in fig. 2.20, page 27. I also
know that my dad would expect me to take darn good care of it! That was
a good lesson from dad: "Take care of your tools". Also they are no good
if you don't know where they a "Put them back when you're through
with them!"

Excellent advice.

--
"Human nature itself is evermore an advocate for liberty.
There is also in human nature a resentment of injury, and
indignation against wrong. A love of truth and a veneration
of virtue. These amiable passions, are the latent spark. If
the people are capable of understanding, seeing and feeling
the differences between true and false, right and wrong,
virtue and vice, to what better principle can the friends of
mankind apply than to the sense of this difference?"
--John Adams

On Mon, 20 Jun 2011 20:13:28 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

snip

I wrestled Dina into the bed of my truck with a rope and comealong,
then dropped her the same way. She was lighter, at #300 or so.
Pickup and drop time took maybe ten minutes, including rigging.


Are you talking about a saw or your last date? ;-)
--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA

"Nova" wrote ..
Larry Jaques wrote:

snip

I wrestled Dina into the bed of my truck with a rope and comealong,
then dropped her the same way. She was lighter, at #300 or so.
Pickup and drop time took maybe ten minutes, including rigging.

Are you talking about a saw or your last date? ;-)

--------
Which could explain why Larry is single.

On Tue, 21 Jun 2011 09:40:22 -0400, Nova wrote:

On Mon, 20 Jun 2011 20:13:28 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

snip

I wrestled Dina into the bed of my truck with a rope and comealong,
then dropped her the same way. She was lighter, at #300 or so.
Pickup and drop time took maybe ten minutes, including rigging.

Are you talking about a saw or your last date? ;-)

Dina, my 1920s tablesaur from Hollywood, CA, of course. I won't even
entertain the thought of that other possibility, you venomous vixen
bastid, Yack. Petite is where it's at. Young Lucy Lawless was one
exception. You can keep your Rosie O'Donnels to yourself,
thankyouverymuch. Ewwwwww!

3 lists, w/ overlap: http://goo.gl/B9ROJ and http://goo.gl/vOhda and
http://www.mademan.com/mm/10-petite-...actresses.html
Any of these ladies would do just fine. Look at Nia Peeples at age 50!
http://goo.gl/ZdU2K (Ouch!, 2550x3300 pixels, not optimized, but you
can see her pores and nary a wrinkle. She's amazing.)


[quick topic change]
This just in: http://goo.gl/s04ot Let's build one!

--
"Human nature itself is evermore an advocate for liberty.
There is also in human nature a resentment of injury, and
indignation against wrong. A love of truth and a veneration
of virtue. These amiable passions, are the latent spark. If
the people are capable of understanding, seeing and feeling
the differences between true and false, right and wrong,
virtue and vice, to what better principle can the friends of
mankind apply than to the sense of this difference?"
--John Adams

On Jun 21, 10:07*am, "Lee Michaels" leemichaels*nadaspam* at comcast
dot net wrote:
"Nova" *wrote .. Larry Jaques wrote:

snip

I wrestled Dina into the bed of my truck with a rope and comealong,
then dropped her the same way. *She was lighter, at #300 or so.
Pickup and drop time took maybe ten minutes, including rigging.

Are you talking about a saw or your last date? ;-)

--------
Which could explain why Larry is single.

Really, if it is THAT hard to get a girl to go out on a date....

Bill writes:
Larry Jaques wrote:
On Sun, 19 Jun 2011 23:55:46 -0400, wrote:

Larry Jaques wrote:
On Sun, 19 Jun 2011 21:18:49 -0400, wrote:

Larry Jaques wrote:

Betty's book challenges you quite a bit. Try drawing an upside down
picture of a rocking chair. It challenges all you know about
perspective. DAMHIKT.

To me, it seems like the important part of that is that it forces you to
create an store an image in your brain. It's analogous to trying to play
guitar without really having a tune in your head. By this point I have
managed to learn to do both to some degree. The blues singer Son (Eddie)
House expressed the idea most-eloquently: "Until you've got that song in
your head you ain't gonna do s$#t!" Seriously, I wish I had really
understand that sooner!

Grok that.

I had to look "grok" up in the dictionary to see which side you were on!
I was someone surprised to find the word.

Now read the book. It's marvelous! Everything by Heinlein was
excellent. _Stranger in a Strange Land_

Well, I started by reading about it (at Amazon). Sounds interesting!

If you read it young enough, it will warp you for life (in a good way).

scott

"Bill" wrote in message
...
Lobby Dosser wrote:
"Bill" wrote in message
...

I don't think I've seen many threads on drawing/sketching here.

Did you ever get an answer not related to drafting/architectural?
Coincidentally I was looking at books on drawing yesterday at B&N and
was not satisfied with the selection. Saw most of those you mentioned
including the one you said you might order. I diverge, in that I am
interested in also doing color work.

Yes Lobby, "Engineering Drawing", known at Amazon.com as "Manual of
Engineering Drawing" appears to be a well-thought-of standard for the
craft and was used in college by several of the folks here.
I ordered a version of it. I went back to the used book store to pick up
the book "How To Draw What You See", but someone else found it. I'll
probably collect a copy of it sometime. It looked a lot better to me than
most of the "how to draw" books. There are a lot of reviews of it and
sample pages to read at Amazon.

Cheers,
Bill


Thanks, Bill.

--
"I'm the man who broke the bank at Monte Carlo ..."

Lobby Dosser wrote:
"Bill" wrote in message
...
Lobby Dosser wrote:
"Bill" wrote in message
...

I don't think I've seen many threads on drawing/sketching here.

Did you ever get an answer not related to drafting/architectural?
Coincidentally I was looking at books on drawing yesterday at B&N and
was not satisfied with the selection. Saw most of those you mentioned
including the one you said you might order. I diverge, in that I am
interested in also doing color work.

Yes Lobby, "Engineering Drawing", known at Amazon.com as "Manual of
Engineering Drawing" appears to be a well-thought-of standard for the
craft and was used in college by several of the folks here.
I ordered a version of it. I went back to the used book store to pick
up the book "How To Draw What You See", but someone else found it.
I'll probably collect a copy of it sometime. It looked a lot better to
me than most of the "how to draw" books. There are a lot of reviews of
it and sample pages to read at Amazon.

Cheers,
Bill


Thanks, Bill.


Your welcome. Another book that was mentioned here that complements both
"How To Draw What You See" and "How To Draw With The Right Side Of Your
Brain", is "Perspective Without Pain". I've got the latter on request
from my library. You can browse a bit of each of them at Amazon.com. I
think you can get a feel for them from the reviews people write too.
Happy sketching!

BTW, the LumberJocks.com website emailed me today to let me know they
are giving away $500 for the best birdhouse (by popular vote). Winning
starts with a good sketch. : )

Bill

On Wed, 22 Jun 2011 22:14:43 -0700, "Lobby Dosser"
wrote:

"Bill" wrote in message
...
Lobby Dosser wrote:
"Bill" wrote in message
...

I don't think I've seen many threads on drawing/sketching here.

Did you ever get an answer not related to drafting/architectural?
Coincidentally I was looking at books on drawing yesterday at B&N and
was not satisfied with the selection. Saw most of those you mentioned
including the one you said you might order. I diverge, in that I am
interested in also doing color work.

Yes Lobby, "Engineering Drawing", known at Amazon.com as "Manual of
Engineering Drawing" appears to be a well-thought-of standard for the
craft and was used in college by several of the folks here.
I ordered a version of it. I went back to the used book store to pick up
the book "How To Draw What You See", but someone else found it. I'll
probably collect a copy of it sometime. It looked a lot better to me than
most of the "how to draw" books. There are a lot of reviews of it and
sample pages to read at Amazon.

Thanks, Bill.

An associated tome I found helpful was _How To Look At Everything_ by
David Finn. Warm and wonderful, it sets the mood.

Also check out books by Claudia Nice [watercolor, ink, and pen] and
Lee Hammond [acrylics (my fave) and colored pencil drawing.] Both are
prolific writers.

--
"Human nature itself is evermore an advocate for liberty.
There is also in human nature a resentment of injury, and
indignation against wrong. A love of truth and a veneration
of virtue. These amiable passions, are the latent spark. If
the people are capable of understanding, seeing and feeling
the differences between true and false, right and wrong,
virtue and vice, to what better principle can the friends of
mankind apply than to the sense of this difference?"
--John Adams

Larry Jaques wrote:
On Wed, 22 Jun 2011 22:14:43 -0700, "Lobby Dosser"
wrote:

wrote in message
...
Lobby Dosser wrote:
wrote in message
...

I don't think I've seen many threads on drawing/sketching here.

Did you ever get an answer not related to drafting/architectural?
Coincidentally I was looking at books on drawing yesterday at B&N and
was not satisfied with the selection. Saw most of those you mentioned
including the one you said you might order. I diverge, in that I am
interested in also doing color work.

Yes Lobby, "Engineering Drawing", known at Amazon.com as "Manual of
Engineering Drawing" appears to be a well-thought-of standard for the
craft and was used in college by several of the folks here.
I ordered a version of it. I went back to the used book store to pick up
the book "How To Draw What You See", but someone else found it. I'll
probably collect a copy of it sometime. It looked a lot better to me than
most of the "how to draw" books. There are a lot of reviews of it and
sample pages to read at Amazon.

Thanks, Bill.

An associated tome I found helpful was _How To Look At Everything_ by
David Finn. Warm and wonderful, it sets the mood.

It has 3 reviews at Amazon.com. The longest paragraph in the 1st
review is the one that, to me, seems the most telling: The gist of it is
that there is no "How To" in the book. What did you find helpful about
it? Obviously, we all enjoy what we enjoy and I think even that varies
from month to month, week to week, and day to day... Gosh, that last
sentence came out practically poetic. Even a blind squirrel finds a nut
once in while! : )


Also check out books by Claudia Nice [watercolor, ink, and pen] and
Lee Hammond [acrylics (my fave) and colored pencil drawing.] Both are
prolific writers.

--
"Human nature itself is evermore an advocate for liberty.
There is also in human nature a resentment of injury, and
indignation against wrong. A love of truth and a veneration
of virtue. These amiable passions, are the latent spark. If
the people are capable of understanding, seeing and feeling
the differences between true and false, right and wrong,
virtue and vice, to what better principle can the friends of
mankind apply than to the sense of this difference?"
--John Adams

On Thu, 23 Jun 2011 17:40:26 -0400, Bill wrote:

Larry Jaques wrote:
On Wed, 22 Jun 2011 22:14:43 -0700, "Lobby Dosser"
wrote:

wrote in message
...
Lobby Dosser wrote:
wrote in message
...

I don't think I've seen many threads on drawing/sketching here.

Did you ever get an answer not related to drafting/architectural?
Coincidentally I was looking at books on drawing yesterday at B&N and
was not satisfied with the selection. Saw most of those you mentioned
including the one you said you might order. I diverge, in that I am
interested in also doing color work.

Yes Lobby, "Engineering Drawing", known at Amazon.com as "Manual of
Engineering Drawing" appears to be a well-thought-of standard for the
craft and was used in college by several of the folks here.
I ordered a version of it. I went back to the used book store to pick up
the book "How To Draw What You See", but someone else found it. I'll
probably collect a copy of it sometime. It looked a lot better to me than
most of the "how to draw" books. There are a lot of reviews of it and
sample pages to read at Amazon.

Thanks, Bill.

An associated tome I found helpful was _How To Look At Everything_ by
David Finn. Warm and wonderful, it sets the mood.

It has 3 reviews at Amazon.com. The longest paragraph in the 1st
review is the one that, to me, seems the most telling: The gist of it is
that there is no "How To" in the book. What did you find helpful about
it?

It was a look at things from a whole different perspective. Kinda like
reading a book by Krenov. Refreshing and thought-provoking.


Obviously, we all enjoy what we enjoy and I think even that varies
from month to month, week to week, and day to day... Gosh, that last
sentence came out practically poetic. Even a blind squirrel finds a nut
once in while! : )

Ayup.

--
You can't wait for inspiration. You have to go after it with a club.
--Jack London

On Thu, 23 Jun 2011 17:40:26 -0400, Bill wrote:

I said:
An associated tome I found helpful was _How To Look At Everything_ by
David Finn. Warm and wonderful, it sets the mood.

It has 3 reviews at Amazon.com. The longest paragraph in the 1st
review is the one that, to me, seems the most telling: The gist of it is
that there is no "How To" in the book.

I forgot to comment on the reviews: They should have stuck with their
copies of Dumb and Dumberer. They obviously have no imagination.

--
"Human nature itself is evermore an advocate for liberty.
There is also in human nature a resentment of injury, and
indignation against wrong. A love of truth and a veneration
of virtue. These amiable passions, are the latent spark. If
the people are capable of understanding, seeing and feeling
the differences between true and false, right and wrong,
virtue and vice, to what better principle can the friends of
mankind apply than to the sense of this difference?"
--John Adams

Larry Jaques wrote:
On Thu, 23 Jun 2011 17:40:26 -0400, wrote:

Larry Jaques wrote:
On Wed, 22 Jun 2011 22:14:43 -0700, "Lobby Dosser"
wrote:

wrote in message
...
Lobby Dosser wrote:
wrote in message
...

I don't think I've seen many threads on drawing/sketching here.

Did you ever get an answer not related to drafting/architectural?
Coincidentally I was looking at books on drawing yesterday at B&N and
was not satisfied with the selection. Saw most of those you mentioned
including the one you said you might order. I diverge, in that I am
interested in also doing color work.

Yes Lobby, "Engineering Drawing", known at Amazon.com as "Manual of
Engineering Drawing" appears to be a well-thought-of standard for the
craft and was used in college by several of the folks here.
I ordered a version of it. I went back to the used book store to pick up
the book "How To Draw What You See", but someone else found it. I'll
probably collect a copy of it sometime. It looked a lot better to me than
most of the "how to draw" books. There are a lot of reviews of it and
sample pages to read at Amazon.

Thanks, Bill.

An associated tome I found helpful was _How To Look At Everything_ by
David Finn. Warm and wonderful, it sets the mood.

It has 3 reviews at Amazon.com. The longest paragraph in the 1st
review is the one that, to me, seems the most telling: The gist of it is
that there is no "How To" in the book. What did you find helpful about
it?

It was a look at things from a whole different perspective. Kinda like
reading a book by Krenov. Refreshing and thought-provoking.

I think what Krenov left me with is a reverence for wood that I'll never
shake. And when someone acuses me of being A-R, all I have to do is
think of him and I feel sort of validated...lol : )




Obviously, we all enjoy what we enjoy and I think even that varies
from month to month, week to week, and day to day... Gosh, that last
sentence came out practically poetic. Even a blind squirrel finds a nut
once in while! : )

Ayup.

Oh, so now you're calling me a blind squirrel!
Maybe without my glasses.. : )

Bill


--
You can't wait for inspiration. You have to go after it with a club.
--Jack London

Larry Jaques wrote:
On Thu, 23 Jun 2011 17:40:26 -0400, wrote:

I said:
An associated tome I found helpful was _How To Look At Everything_ by
David Finn. Warm and wonderful, it sets the mood.

It has 3 reviews at Amazon.com. The longest paragraph in the 1st
review is the one that, to me, seems the most telling: The gist of it is
that there is no "How To" in the book.

I forgot to comment on the reviews: They should have stuck with their
copies of Dumb and Dumberer. They obviously have no imagination.

Yeah, they are probably not Wreckers. IIRC, the 3rd reviewer actually
liked the book. I will keep my eyes open for it.


--
"Human nature itself is evermore an advocate for liberty.
There is also in human nature a resentment of injury, and
indignation against wrong. A love of truth and a veneration
of virtue. These amiable passions, are the latent spark. If
the people are capable of understanding, seeing and feeling
the differences between true and false, right and wrong,
virtue and vice, to what better principle can the friends of
mankind apply than to the sense of this difference?"
--John Adams

On Thu, 23 Jun 2011 22:04:46 -0400, Bill wrote:

Larry Jaques wrote:
On Thu, 23 Jun 2011 17:40:26 -0400, wrote:

Larry Jaques wrote:
On Wed, 22 Jun 2011 22:14:43 -0700, "Lobby Dosser"
wrote:

wrote in message
...
Lobby Dosser wrote:
wrote in message
...

I don't think I've seen many threads on drawing/sketching here.

Did you ever get an answer not related to drafting/architectural?
Coincidentally I was looking at books on drawing yesterday at B&N and
was not satisfied with the selection. Saw most of those you mentioned
including the one you said you might order. I diverge, in that I am
interested in also doing color work.

Yes Lobby, "Engineering Drawing", known at Amazon.com as "Manual of
Engineering Drawing" appears to be a well-thought-of standard for the
craft and was used in college by several of the folks here.
I ordered a version of it. I went back to the used book store to pick up
the book "How To Draw What You See", but someone else found it. I'll
probably collect a copy of it sometime. It looked a lot better to me than
most of the "how to draw" books. There are a lot of reviews of it and
sample pages to read at Amazon.

Thanks, Bill.

An associated tome I found helpful was _How To Look At Everything_ by
David Finn. Warm and wonderful, it sets the mood.

It has 3 reviews at Amazon.com. The longest paragraph in the 1st
review is the one that, to me, seems the most telling: The gist of it is
that there is no "How To" in the book. What did you find helpful about
it?

It was a look at things from a whole different perspective. Kinda like
reading a book by Krenov. Refreshing and thought-provoking.

I think what Krenov left me with is a reverence for wood that I'll never
shake.

This is A Good Thing(tm), Bill. Lord Roy, Krenov, Eric Sloane (who
wrote _A Reverence for Wood_), and maybe even Norm (of Normite fame)
all did that for me. Roy and Eric were first.


And when someone acuses me of being A-R, all I have to do is
think of him and I feel sort of validated...lol : )

Har! I can just hear you brainmumbling "See? I'm not the worst."


Obviously, we all enjoy what we enjoy and I think even that varies
from month to month, week to week, and day to day... Gosh, that last
sentence came out practically poetic. Even a blind squirrel finds a nut
once in while! : )

Ayup.

Oh, so now you're calling me a blind squirrel!
Maybe without my glasses.. : )

Oh, I thought you were talking about me. Never mind.


P.S: The god of wood known as Lord Roy actually goes by the name Roy
Underhill.

--
You can't wait for inspiration. You have to go after it with a club.
--Jack London

Larry Jaques wrote:

I think what Krenov left me with is a reverence for wood that I'll never
shake.

This is A Good Thing(tm), Bill. Lord Roy, Krenov, Eric Sloane (who
wrote _A Reverence for Wood_), and maybe even Norm (of Normite fame)
all did that for me. Roy and Eric were first.


And when someone acuses me of being A-R, all I have to do is
think of him and I feel sort of validated...lol : )

Har! I can just hear you brainmumbling "See? I'm not the worst."

Har! You say worst like it's a bad thing. On my recent DP baseboard
project, I was building a drilling template so that I would place my
(relatively fancy) screws (3) consistently in the proper position at the
end of each of the five 2by8 boards.

I seemed to have trouble marking the exact center of the template, just
a short 2by8 board, with a knife. I was trying to mark it with my
Starrett combination square to the nearest 64th, or better (a little
joke). I never measured 64ths before or used a knife to mark wood and I
encountering difficulty. I ended up taking my bifocals off and got my
eyes right down there next to the knife and the rule and it occurred to
me that working like that was almost dangerous and that Mike or Larry
would probably acuse me of being A-R about it! About that time I
remembered to prop the rule up and I learned to use one eye due to my
astigmatism, which probably accounts for some of my difficulty. In
retrospect, using a 1 1/2" thick drilling template surely negated most
of my "precision" anyway, but that did not occur to me at the time. So,
I got a few good lessons from my unnecessary drilling template... BTW,
it really IS TRUE that a center-punch (or chisel, I guess) will find the
marks cut by a knife better than ones marked by a pencil! In fact, if
two cut lines cross you can center-punch their point of intersection
perfectly without even looking--and I enjoyed taking all of the
advantage of that...

Bill

On Fri, 24 Jun 2011 01:36:19 -0400, Bill wrote:

Larry Jaques wrote:

I think what Krenov left me with is a reverence for wood that I'll never
shake.

This is A Good Thing(tm), Bill. Lord Roy, Krenov, Eric Sloane (who
wrote _A Reverence for Wood_), and maybe even Norm (of Normite fame)
all did that for me. Roy and Eric were first.


And when someone acuses me of being A-R, all I have to do is
think of him and I feel sort of validated...lol : )

Har! I can just hear you brainmumbling "See? I'm not the worst."

Har! You say worst like it's a bad thing. On my recent DP baseboard
project, I was building a drilling template so that I would place my
(relatively fancy) screws (3) consistently in the proper position at the
end of each of the five 2by8 boards.

Fancy heads on screws hidden in the attic? Um, OK.


I seemed to have trouble marking the exact center of the template, just
a short 2by8 board, with a knife. I was trying to mark it with my
Starrett combination square to the nearest 64th, or better (a little
joke).

Hah! Deflection, if I ever saw it.


I never measured 64ths before or used a knife to mark wood and I
encountering difficulty. I ended up taking my bifocals off and got my
eyes right down there next to the knife and the rule and it occurred to
me that working like that was almost dangerous and that Mike or Larry
would probably acuse me of being A-R about it! About that time I
remembered to prop the rule up and I learned to use one eye due to my
astigmatism, which probably accounts for some of my difficulty. In
retrospect, using a 1 1/2" thick drilling template surely negated most
of my "precision" anyway, but that did not occur to me at the time. So,
I got a few good lessons from my unnecessary drilling template... BTW,
it really IS TRUE that a center-punch (or chisel, I guess) will find the
marks cut by a knife better than ones marked by a pencil! In fact, if
two cut lines cross you can center-punch their point of intersection
perfectly without even looking--and I enjoyed taking all of the
advantage of that...

Why not abuse a pair of dial calipers next time? Open them to the
measurement you want, hang one side off the tubawhatever, and mark
with the knife at the other jaw, or scribe directly with the stainless
jaw of the dial calipers. I do that regularly with a pair of Chinese
dial calipers bought 25+ years ago, and the jaw's still there, looking
practically new. (Don't anyone mention this to anyone over in
Wreck.Metalheads, though. They'd have heart attacks.)

Alternatively, measure with a micrometer, mark with chalk, and cut
with an axe.

Ball's in your court.

--
You can't wait for inspiration. You have to go after it with a club.
--Jack London

On 6/24/2011 7:05 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:
Why not abuse a pair of dial calipers next time? Open them to the
measurement you want, hang one side off the tubawhatever, and mark
with the knife at the other jaw, or scribe directly with the stainless
jaw of the dial calipers. I do that regularly with a pair of Chinese
dial calipers bought 25+ years ago, and the jaw's still there, looking
practically new. (Don't anyone mention this to anyone over in
Wreck.Metalheads, though. They'd have heart attacks.)

I do that all the time too. Why on earth hasn't somebody yet invented a good
woodworker's marking tool with a dial caliper gauge built into it?

--
"Our beer goes through thousands of quality Czechs every day."
(From a Shiner Bock billboard I saw in Austin some years ago)
To reply, eat the taco.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboyee/

Larry Jaques wrote:

Why not abuse a pair of dial calipers next time? Open them to the
measurement you want, hang one side off the tubawhatever, and mark
with the knife at the other jaw, or scribe directly with the stainless
jaw of the dial calipers.

Not a bad idea... Anyway you can eke up to the center line from both
sides sounds like a reasonable approach. Of course, pencil lines are too
wide to use!

Bill


I do that regularly with a pair of Chinese
dial calipers bought 25+ years ago, and the jaw's still there, looking
practically new. (Don't anyone mention this to anyone over in
Wreck.Metalheads, though. They'd have heart attacks.)

Bill wrote:
Larry Jaques wrote:

Why not abuse a pair of dial calipers next time? Open them to the
measurement you want, hang one side off the tubawhatever, and mark
with the knife at the other jaw, or scribe directly with the stainless
jaw of the dial calipers.

Not a bad idea... Anyway you can eke up to the center line from both
sides sounds like a reasonable approach. Of course, pencil lines are too
wide to use!

Bill


I do that regularly with a pair of Chinese
dial calipers bought 25+ years ago, and the jaw's still there, looking
practically new. (Don't anyone mention this to anyone over in
Wreck.Metalheads, though. They'd have heart attacks.)


This technique is not good enough for the metal workers, huh? What's
wrong with 'em? LOL

On Fri, 24 Jun 2011 20:30:13 -0400, Bill wrote:

Bill wrote:
Larry Jaques wrote:

Why not abuse a pair of dial calipers next time? Open them to the
measurement you want, hang one side off the tubawhatever, and mark
with the knife at the other jaw, or scribe directly with the stainless
jaw of the dial calipers.

Not a bad idea... Anyway you can eke up to the center line from both
sides sounds like a reasonable approach. Of course, pencil lines are too
wide to use!

Bill


I do that regularly with a pair of Chinese
dial calipers bought 25+ years ago, and the jaw's still there, looking
practically new. (Don't anyone mention this to anyone over in
Wreck.Metalheads, though. They'd have heart attacks.)


This technique is not good enough for the metal workers, huh? What's
wrong with 'em? LOL

They want stuff, even wood, measured down to the tenths.
No, no. We're talkin' 0.0001". Hmm, you'd probably get along with 'em.

--
You can't wait for inspiration. You have to go after it with a club.
--Jack London

Larry Jaques wrote:
On Fri, 24 Jun 2011 20:30:13 -0400, wrote:

Bill wrote:
Larry Jaques wrote:

Why not abuse a pair of dial calipers next time? Open them to the
measurement you want, hang one side off the tubawhatever, and mark
with the knife at the other jaw, or scribe directly with the stainless
jaw of the dial calipers.

Not a bad idea... Anyway you can eke up to the center line from both
sides sounds like a reasonable approach. Of course, pencil lines are too
wide to use!

Bill


I do that regularly with a pair of Chinese
dial calipers bought 25+ years ago, and the jaw's still there, looking
practically new. (Don't anyone mention this to anyone over in
Wreck.Metalheads, though. They'd have heart attacks.)


This technique is not good enough for the metal workers, huh? What's
wrong with 'em? LOL

They want stuff, even wood, measured down to the tenths.
No, no. We're talkin' 0.0001". Hmm, you'd probably get along with 'em.

Thanks, I assume you mean that as a compliment! : )
If your goal is to make stringed instruments, you need to position those
frets just right!


--
You can't wait for inspiration. You have to go after it with a club.
--Jack London