Larry Jaques wrote in message . ..

On 14 May 2004 05:27:43 -0700, (Conan The Librarian)
brought forth from the murky depths:

[pine]

Sounds like you're blaming the wood for the idjits who don't know
how to use it properly. :-)

OK, add that it is too soft, splits easily, and has too many knots.
The smell gets old after awhile, too.

I can't say that I mind the smell, and you just have to pick your
boards carefully to avoid knots. As for it being soft and splitting
easily, that's true with most of what you can buy at your local Borg,
but I have had the pleasure of working some stuff (guato pine) that is
as hard as dense as many hardwoods. This stuff in particular had
outstanding working properties (as well as a bit of figure):
http://uweb.txstate.edu/~cv01/stool2.jpg

[snip]

bring down trees on their land: http://www.swt.edu/~cv01/logs2.jpg

Just say (tmPL) *meeep* *meeeep*

Huh? a -firewood- gloat? Hmmm...

I don't know what you use for firewood now that you're up in
Oregon, but down here, a 4' section of mesquite log with a 24"
diameter is considered worth saving. In fact, some folks might even
try to make something out of it:
http://uweb.txstate.edu/~cv01/mesquitable.jpg


Chuck Vance

Well, I have to ask. Where did you find that mesquite?

Also, I like the tile topped table. I may do something similar for an Acoma
pot that I have.
Tell us the story of the tile and the pot on your table.

What is guato pine and where do you find it? I guess I'll have to call the
guy's at Clarkes Hardwoods.


"Conan The Librarian" wrote in message
om...
Larry Jaques wrote in message
. ..

On 14 May 2004 05:27:43 -0700, (Conan The Librarian)
snip

Chuck Vance

Well,
I Googled guato pine and it led me to your web site. I found the answers to
my questions. :-)


"Lowell Holmes" wrote in message
...
Well, I have to ask. Where did you find that mesquite?

Also, I like the tile topped table. I may do something similar for an
Acoma
pot that I have.
Tell us the story of the tile and the pot on your table.

What is guato pine and where do you find it? I guess I'll have to call the
guy's at Clarkes Hardwoods.


"Conan The Librarian" wrote in message
om...
Larry Jaques wrote in message
. ..

On 14 May 2004 05:27:43 -0700, (Conan The Librarian)
snip

Chuck Vance

In article ,
(D. A. Clark) wrote:

I believe the question was...What is Living Trade?
Only two respondents have made an effort to answer with any
perspicacity, and they did well. So, what does that make the rest of
you?
daclark

Me too dumb to know. Master, will you enlighten us?

Paul "Computer Twit" Kierstead

(Conan The Librarian) wrote:
And your entrance into the group is similar to someone barging into
the middle of a party uninvited and hollering, "hey, look at me ...
I'm smarter than you, and I don't care what you're talking about, you
should all discuss what interests me".

Yeah - normally you have to go to the trumpet player's forum for that
kind of discourse. DAMHIKT.

O'Deen

Has D.A. ever posted pictures of his woodwork?

OBTW, what does D.A. stand for? :-)

"Patrick Olguin" wrote in message
m...
(Conan The Librarian) wrote:
And your entrance into the group is similar to someone barging into
the middle of a party uninvited and hollering, "hey, look at me ...
I'm smarter than you, and I don't care what you're talking about, you
should all discuss what interests me".

Yeah - normally you have to go to the trumpet player's forum for that
kind of discourse. DAMHIKT.

O'Deen

bridger wrote in message

as I see it, you started a thread that was almost, but not quite
completely off topic...

The topic is, What is Living Trade?

it's a part of being social mammals. it's about communication, on a
level somewhere a bit deeper than language. it keeps us from killing
and eating our young, which is a good thing for social mammals. it's
wired in deep, man, so deep that it's really difficult to analyze what
it is and why it's there, especially using cognitive functions that
are "higher" than emotional response...

A good answer, for not knowing the question...

the working of wood is one of our base technologies. like weaving,
cooking food and making maps it is something that must be developed in
order to build a complex civilization. why do we do that? beats me,
but we sure do...

Collectively, we do so as a civilization, but real progress is
individual effort, wouldn't you agree?

being a base technology, we will return to it time and again. it sits
there in our subconscious and feeds our minds principles and metaphors
that show up in diverse and seemingly unrelated endeavors. while we
are not without alternatives to wood for materials with which to
construct the acouterments of this complex civilization that we have
built for ourselves, wood appeals to us on a number of levels. it's a
material used by our ancestors, and humans are nothing if not suckers
for sentimentality. it's also a pretty good material for lots of
things. it has a sweet strength to weight ratio. it has failure modes
that are fairly predictable. coming from a living thing it gives us a
connection to nature. it's easily worked with fairly simple tools.

Not a fully concise assimilation, but lots of emotion. A good
statement in favor of seeking an answer to what is living trade.

people like making things. we're just wired that way. it comes from
walking upright and having hands with opposable thumbs.

This is an answer that I am not satisfied with. To work wood is not
just an inherent condition, there is no such thing as a naturally born
woodworker. The ability to truly work wood comes through the
acquisition of knowledge and understanding. Skills, the assimilation
of tools and techniques are the by-product of time spent in
apprenticeship, whether at trade or in your own shop.

we do it for pay because there exists considerable demand for things made by
people with specific skills. such is the nature of complex civilizations. we
do it for recreation because whatever we do for pay provides insufficient
stimulation to that part of our psyches that runs on the principles and
metaphors of woodworking. in short, we can't help it.

This is where your thesis breaks down. If you give it some thought, I
believe you will see that you are straddling a pointy fence.
Well, bridger, for not wanting to play, you made a fine contribution.
daclark

Paul Kierstead wrote:
Master, will you enlighten us?

Grasshopper? What do you see?
Does man work wood? Or does wood work man?

D. A. Clark wrote:
: bridger wrote in message
:
: as I see it, you started a thread that was almost, but not quite
: completely off topic...

: The topic is, What is Living Trade?



Here's the problem. YOU made the term "living trade" up. As a result
coming in here and asking what it means is contrary to how things usually
work (here, and elsewhere). When one invents a new term, it's to describe
something that ALREADY exists, or already is a focus of discussion.
You don't make a term up and then wander around trying to get people to
help you define it. That's just ornery.

-- Andy Barss

On 17 May 2004 05:25:26 -0700, (Conan The Librarian)
brought forth from the murky depths:


I can't say that I mind the smell, and you just have to pick your
boards carefully to avoid knots. As for it being soft and splitting
easily, that's true with most of what you can buy at your local Borg,
but I have had the pleasure of working some stuff (guato pine) that is
as hard as dense as many hardwoods. This stuff in particular had

I'm finding a lot more green doug fir up here. It's nice to work
when wet (soft) and hardens up to oaklike density without twisting.
All we had in LoCal were birdseye SPF (mostly waaavy pine) with
some nice spruce studs at triple the price. Feh! Anyway, some day
soon I'll make that sheet-goods cart out of the 2x8 DF. It's raining
to day so I'll be spreading the last of the Weed'n'Feed tomorrow,
opening another 1-sq/ft of space in the shop. It's garage sale time.
Why do so many little projects always seem to get in the way of real
wooddorking stuff?


outstanding working properties (as well as a bit of figure):
http://uweb.txstate.edu/~cv01/stool2.jpg

Whatever floats yer boat. Got another pic of that with different
lighting? It looks stained in that pic, and you know how I get...


Huh? a -firewood- gloat? Hmmm...

I don't know what you use for firewood now that you're up in
Oregon, but down here, a 4' section of mesquite log with a 24"

Mesquite? I totally missed that in the original post, and the
photo is uncommented, so Excuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuse me. I honor your
gloat now, suckah.


diameter is considered worth saving. In fact, some folks might even
try to make something out of it:
http://uweb.txstate.edu/~cv01/mesquitable.jpg

Yeah, she were purty.


-
In nature's infinite book of secrecy a little I can read. -Shakespeare
------
http://diversify.com Website Application & Database Development

We do it tomorrow because we did it today, and there's the natural challenge
to make our next product better than our last. The trade lives because as
intelligent as the human race is, a true craftsman can always make "it"
better than the last guy choosing only to use the highlights of what he's
learned through passed on lessons, choosing to improve on that which he
feels justified. The resulting new innovations though many, are simple
derivatives of circuitous technology. Tools, means, methods,
efficiencies...all are simple but plodding enhancements yet the core of the
technology still lies with rudimentary tools, rudimentary materials and
rudimentary physics..... such as it is with any trade that continues, such
that it is that any trade plied today can trace it's ancestral roots to
trades of yesterday, all of which were required to provide basic food and
shelter. As long as the race shall live, so to will the trade....

Rob

--


http://www.robswoodworking.com

"D. A. Clark" wrote in message
om...
bridger wrote in message

as I see it, you started a thread that was almost, but not quite
completely off topic...

The topic is, What is Living Trade?

it's a part of being social mammals. it's about communication, on a
level somewhere a bit deeper than language. it keeps us from killing
and eating our young, which is a good thing for social mammals. it's
wired in deep, man, so deep that it's really difficult to analyze what
it is and why it's there, especially using cognitive functions that
are "higher" than emotional response...

A good answer, for not knowing the question...

the working of wood is one of our base technologies. like weaving,
cooking food and making maps it is something that must be developed in
order to build a complex civilization. why do we do that? beats me,
but we sure do...

Collectively, we do so as a civilization, but real progress is
individual effort, wouldn't you agree?

being a base technology, we will return to it time and again. it sits
there in our subconscious and feeds our minds principles and metaphors
that show up in diverse and seemingly unrelated endeavors. while we
are not without alternatives to wood for materials with which to
construct the acouterments of this complex civilization that we have
built for ourselves, wood appeals to us on a number of levels. it's a
material used by our ancestors, and humans are nothing if not suckers
for sentimentality. it's also a pretty good material for lots of
things. it has a sweet strength to weight ratio. it has failure modes
that are fairly predictable. coming from a living thing it gives us a
connection to nature. it's easily worked with fairly simple tools.

Not a fully concise assimilation, but lots of emotion. A good
statement in favor of seeking an answer to what is living trade.

people like making things. we're just wired that way. it comes from
walking upright and having hands with opposable thumbs.

This is an answer that I am not satisfied with. To work wood is not
just an inherent condition, there is no such thing as a naturally born
woodworker. The ability to truly work wood comes through the
acquisition of knowledge and understanding. Skills, the assimilation
of tools and techniques are the by-product of time spent in
apprenticeship, whether at trade or in your own shop.

we do it for pay because there exists considerable demand for things
made by
people with specific skills. such is the nature of complex
civilizations. we
do it for recreation because whatever we do for pay provides
insufficient
stimulation to that part of our psyches that runs on the principles and
metaphors of woodworking. in short, we can't help it.

This is where your thesis breaks down. If you give it some thought, I
believe you will see that you are straddling a pointy fence.
Well, bridger, for not wanting to play, you made a fine contribution.
daclark

(Conan The Librarian) wrote in message

This is a newsgroup frequented by mostly recreational woodworkers...

As self-appointed moderator for this public facility, you should read
your own FAQ, then give it a good flush.
Just for your information, Charlie, I am recreating.

In short, we're a bit like any gathering of guys at a bar or party.
And your entrance into the group is similar to someone barging into
the middle of a party uninvited...

Since I originated the thread, as I was free to do, it must be my
party. It's BYOB, Charlie...(Bring Your Own Brain)...and you didn't
have the good manners to do so. But, you are welcome to stay,
Chuckie...maybe somebody else will say something intelligent for you.

On 17 May 2004 16:41:11 -0700, (D. A. Clark)
wrote:

the working of wood is one of our base technologies. like weaving,
cooking food and making maps it is something that must be developed in
order to build a complex civilization. why do we do that? beats me,
but we sure do...

Collectively, we do so as a civilization, but real progress is
individual effort, wouldn't you agree?


9of course individuals will want to claim credit for what they do, but
none live in a vacuum. technology is cumulative, and when it reaches
critical mass type threshholds it makes quantum leaps. the individuals
involved are *almost* irrelevant.

On Mon, 17 May 2004 19:56:08 -0700, Larry Jaques
posted:

Why do so many little projects always seem to get in the way of real
wooddorking stuff?

With me, it's becuase I'm anally retentive wrt efficiency.
If there is a big juicy job to do, I can't start that until I do this
small job that makes another small job down the line more efficiently
handled, and before I do that, I have to move something else coz that
will make another small (to-be-done-before-the-main-job) job "more
efficient" The bottom line is that I'm still doing precursor jobbies
six weeks later. Story of my life.

(D. A. Clark) wrote in message . com...

(Conan The Librarian) wrote in message

This is a newsgroup frequented by mostly recreational woodworkers...

As self-appointed moderator for this public facility, you should read
your own FAQ, then give it a good flush.

Let's see, first it was lingerie, then it was homosexual interior
decorators and now it's a public commode. For such a hoity-toity
intellectual, your mind sure seems to lean towards baser pursuits.

Just for your information, Charlie, I am recreating.

I'll give you partial credit on that one, D., since the word
"recreate" has more than one meaning. You definitely are trying to
recreate this same tired thread. The phrase "one-trick-pony" comes to
mind.

In short, we're a bit like any gathering of guys at a bar or party.
And your entrance into the group is similar to someone barging into
the middle of a party uninvited...

Since I originated the thread, as I was free to do, it must be my
party.

In other words, just as I wrote before, D. sez: "hey, look at me ...
I'm smarter than you, and I don't care what you're talking about, you
should all discuss what interests me".

But, you are welcome to stay

I'll be here long after you have ridden your high horse off into
the sunset. What you don't seem to realize(no doubt because of your
holier-than-thou, Mensa-fueled, delusions of grandeur), is that this
group is a virtual community. And you don't become part of that
community by swooping in, brandishing your pseudo-intellectual sword
and cape, Zorro-like, and then daring the peasants to knock the chip
off of your shoulder.

But then again, you don't really want to be part of the community,
do you? That would be so beneath you. OK, so you made your cameo,
everyone knows you're reaaalllly smart (and dashing), now please feel
free to go away for another couple of years. We'll let you know when
we need your services again.

HTH. HAND.


Chuck Vance

Larry Jaques wrote:

On 17 May 2004 05:25:26 -0700, (Conan The Librarian)
brought forth from the murky depths:

[pine]

I'm finding a lot more green doug fir up here. It's nice to work
when wet (soft) and hardens up to oaklike density without twisting.
All we had in LoCal were birdseye SPF (mostly waaavy pine) with
some nice spruce studs at triple the price. Feh!

I can understand you not being too gung-ho about that sort of thing.
I know if the only wood I ever saw was the Borg "pine" stuff, I'd
probably give up woodworking.

Anyway, some day
soon I'll make that sheet-goods cart out of the 2x8 DF. It's raining
to day so I'll be spreading the last of the Weed'n'Feed tomorrow,
opening another 1-sq/ft of space in the shop. It's garage sale time.
Why do so many little projects always seem to get in the way of real
wooddorking stuff?

I dunno, Lar. I don't seem to have that problem. :-)

outstanding working properties (as well as a bit of figure):
http://uweb.txstate.edu/~cv01/stool2.jpg


Whatever floats yer boat. Got another pic of that with different
lighting? It looks stained in that pic, and you know how I get...

No stain there, just shellac. What looks like blotching is actually
some curl. Here's a photo of a different project that shows some of the
neat grain the stuff has: http://uweb.txstate.edu/~cv01/repisa.gif

The panel in that picture was about as heavy as a maple panel of
similar size, and the wood *scraped* beautifully. Not your granddad's
pine for sure. (Well, actually it might be more like what he could have
gotten.)

I don't know what you use for firewood now that you're up in
Oregon, but down here, a 4' section of mesquite log with a 24"

Mesquite? I totally missed that in the original post, and the
photo is uncommented, so Excuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuse me. I honor your
gloat now, suckah.

Tendjew. You were starting to worry me. I was wondering if you
normally burned the stuff when you lived in lowCal.

diameter is considered worth saving. In fact, some folks might even
try to make something out of it:
http://uweb.txstate.edu/~cv01/mesquitable.jpg

Yeah, she were purty.

Thanks. Beeyoootiful grain in that section of log.


Chuck Vance

In article ,
(Conan The Librarian) writes (to D.A.):
everyone knows you're reaaalllly smart (and dashing), now please feel

On the contrary, Chuck.

OB on topic (for D.A.): I first heard of the Living Bra as an
impressionable child, and had this cartoonish image of a
brassiere that went around chasing you.

Oh wait ...

Sorry.

--
Jeff Thunder
Dept. of Mathematical Sciences
Northern Illinois Univ.
jthunder at math dot niu dot edu

"Rob Stokes" wrote in message:
We do it tomorrow because we did it today, and there's the natural challenge
to make our next product better than our last. The trade lives because as
intelligent as the human race is, a true craftsman can always make "it"
better...

Hello Rob,
In seeking an answer to living trade, I cannot accept the 'just
because' or the 'natural challenge' thesis as the whole of
understanding. And while common sense and manual dexterity can
enhance individual accomplishment in pursuit of trade, I do not adhere
to a belief in the natural craftsman's ability for improvement.
Knowledge is not collective per individual, like books on a shelf; but
rather cumulative in the subconsious of experience...and this is
derived through time in apprenticeship, which is a lifelong pursuit.


The resulting new innovations though many, are simple
derivatives of circuitous technology. Tools, means, methods,
efficiencies...all are simple but plodding enhancements yet the core of the
technology still lies with rudimentary tools, rudimentary materials and
rudimentary physics...

I agree, the core of technology is based in the physics of the
material; yet, the innovations of modern technology are not
circuitous...they are destined for obsolescence and have failed to
provide such enhancement of product, that may be derived only from the
assimulation of a human eye and the articulation of a man's hand.
Therefore, man is the greatest technological force at work. As man
returns to the basic material, so too must he return to the first
principles of working the wood...to cut, to shape, to fasten...to find
an answer to what is living trade?

Connie The Librarian wrote in message:

I'll give you partial credit on that one, D., since the word
"recreate" has more than one meaning.


So, what is the Dewey decimal point for ****ant, Chuckie?

D. A. Clark wrote:

So, what is the Dewey decimal point for ****ant, Chuckie?

That's your idea of a comeback?


Chuck Vance
Just say (tmPL) I've thoughtfully included my previous post
below, so you can give it another try. This time try to keep the poopie
words to a minimum. They don't reflect well on you, old chap.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

(D. A. Clark) wrote in message
. com...

(Conan The Librarian) wrote in message


This is a newsgroup frequented by mostly recreational woodworkers...


As self-appointed moderator for this public facility, you should read
your own FAQ, then give it a good flush.

Let's see, first it was lingerie, then it was homosexual interior
decorators and now it's a public commode. For such a hoity-toity
intellectual, your mind sure seems to lean towards baser pursuits.

Just for your information, Charlie, I am recreating.

I'll give you partial credit on that one, D., since the word
"recreate" has more than one meaning. You definitely are trying to
recreate this same tired thread. The phrase "one-trick-pony" comes to
mind.

Since I originated the thread, as I was free to do, it must be my
party.

In other words, just as I wrote before, D. sez: "hey, look at me ...
I'm smarter than you, and I don't care what you're talking about, you
should all discuss what interests me".

But, you are welcome to stay

I'll be here long after you have ridden your high horse off into
the sunset. What you don't seem to realize(no doubt because of your
holier-than-thou, Mensa-fueled, delusions of grandeur), is that this
group is a virtual community. And you don't become part of that
community by swooping in, brandishing your pseudo-intellectual sword
and cape, Zorro-like, and then daring the peasants to knock the chip
off of your shoulder.

But then again, you don't really want to be part of the community,
do you? That would be so beneath you. OK, so you made your cameo,
everyone knows you're reaaalllly smart (and dashing), now please feel
free to go away for another couple of years. We'll let you know when
we need your services again.

HTH. HAND.

(D. A. Clark) wrote in message . com...
wrote in message
so if I understand the issues correctly, you really are a troll.

He who posts off-topic is the troll, that would be most of you.
It is nice that Larry has bought himself some wood for a personal
project, but that is not the topic. On the other hand, in visiting
his website, I find a short dissertation of his personal feelings
while working wood, and that would be part of the philosophy and
psychology of living trade.
Working wood evokes emotion, from the murky depths as Larry would say,
of a man's being. Yet, that is not the whole story either, but
rather, just tip to the iceberg. There are global implications to
what most of you treat as mere hobby, spending countless hours and
dollars for very little result.
Answer this, if you have any understanding...what could be the
underlying purpose of man's emotional response? Why do men work wood,
whether they are paid to do so or not?
daclark

Ahh so you are the professor who will assign value and quantify what
constitutes 'results' kinda arrogant

On Tue, 18 May 2004 08:23:32 -0500, Conan the Librarian
brought forth from the murky depths:

I can understand you not being too gung-ho about that sort of thing.
I know if the only wood I ever saw was the Borg "pine" stuff, I'd
probably give up woodworking.

g


Anyway, some day
soon I'll make that sheet-goods cart out of the 2x8 DF. It's raining
to day so I'll be spreading the last of the Weed'n'Feed tomorrow,
opening another 1-sq/ft of space in the shop. It's garage sale time.
Why do so many little projects always seem to get in the way of real
wooddorking stuff?

I dunno, Lar. I don't seem to have that problem. :-)

Yeah, you finish a project or two a year, don't you?


No stain there, just shellac. What looks like blotching is actually
some curl. Here's a photo of a different project that shows some of the
neat grain the stuff has: http://uweb.txstate.edu/~cv01/repisa.gif

Yes, better.


The panel in that picture was about as heavy as a maple panel of
similar size, and the wood *scraped* beautifully. Not your granddad's
pine for sure. (Well, actually it might be more like what he could have
gotten.)

Yeah, the larger pineywood forests they had 70+ years ago prolly
were nicer than the borg-a-matic pretzels they turn out now.


Tendjew. You were starting to worry me. I was wondering if you
normally burned the stuff when you lived in lowCal.

No, those who used fireplaces ordered oak (sigh), avocado (sigh),
or yewcallapeetusez. I saw manzanita growing (small) out in the
wilds of the deserts we knew as the "California foothills". Y'know,
4-6 INCHES in diameter and 8' tall. Veritable dinosaur teeth. The
only mesquite I saw was in bags: soak 'n smoke BBQ chips. =:0

--
Remember: Every silver lining has a cloud.
----
http://diversify.com Comprehensive Website Development

Chuck, have you found yourself in yet ANOTHER ****ing
contest?? LOL! You go!

dave

Conan the Librarian wrote:

D. A. Clark wrote:

So, what is the Dewey decimal point for ****ant, Chuckie?


That's your idea of a comeback?


Chuck Vance
Just say (tmPL) I've thoughtfully included my previous post below,
so you can give it another try. This time try to keep the poopie words
to a minimum. They don't reflect well on you, old chap.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------


(D. A. Clark) wrote in message
. com...

(Conan The Librarian) wrote in message


This is a newsgroup frequented by mostly recreational woodworkers...


As self-appointed moderator for this public facility, you should read
your own FAQ, then give it a good flush.

Let's see, first it was lingerie, then it was homosexual interior
decorators and now it's a public commode. For such a hoity-toity
intellectual, your mind sure seems to lean towards baser pursuits.

Just for your information, Charlie, I am recreating.

I'll give you partial credit on that one, D., since the word
"recreate" has more than one meaning. You definitely are trying to
recreate this same tired thread. The phrase "one-trick-pony" comes to
mind.

Since I originated the thread, as I was free to do, it must be my
party.

In other words, just as I wrote before, D. sez: "hey, look at me ...
I'm smarter than you, and I don't care what you're talking about, you
should all discuss what interests me".

But, you are welcome to stay

I'll be here long after you have ridden your high horse off into
the sunset. What you don't seem to realize(no doubt because of your
holier-than-thou, Mensa-fueled, delusions of grandeur), is that this
group is a virtual community. And you don't become part of that
community by swooping in, brandishing your pseudo-intellectual sword
and cape, Zorro-like, and then daring the peasants to knock the chip
off of your shoulder.

But then again, you don't really want to be part of the community,
do you? That would be so beneath you. OK, so you made your cameo,
everyone knows you're reaaalllly smart (and dashing), now please feel
free to go away for another couple of years. We'll let you know when
we need your services again.

HTH. HAND.

--


http://www.robswoodworking.com

"D. A. Clark" wrote in message
om...
"Rob Stokes" wrote in message:
We do it tomorrow because we did it today, and there's the natural
challenge
to make our next product better than our last. The trade lives because
as
intelligent as the human race is, a true craftsman can always make "it"
better...

Hello Rob,

Hello DA. Can't stay long on this, but I'll stick for a bit....


In seeking an answer to living trade, I cannot accept the 'just
because' or the 'natural challenge' thesis as the whole of
understanding.

Don't discount the strength of a natural challenge; it's been the father of
the majority of the world we know today and continues to be thr driving
force behind the very payckecks many people spend in an attempt to re-find
their roots. Come to the edge of a cliff and don't look over. Perhaps you
will prevail through will, but your mind will paint the picture for you.

And while common sense and manual dexterity can
enhance individual accomplishment in pursuit of trade, I do not adhere
to a belief in the natural craftsman's ability for improvement.

The Craftsman's natural ability for improvement is spawned from many core
ideals however the prime mover for improvment, as it is in so many cases, is
the efficiencies needed to compete with those who are on a like quest. These
efficiencies are found in both time and materials resulting in lower cost,
larger profit or perhaps both. Interestingly enuogh the very skills neeeded
to realize these gains have themselves taken a life or pride where product
produced by those who excel above the basic need for feed is measured in the
fineness of the skills required to make the product efficient in the first
place.


Knowledge is not collective per individual, like books on a shelf; but
rather cumulative in the subconsious of experience...and this is
derived through time in apprenticeship, which is a lifelong pursuit.

On this we are in total agreement. The quest for happiness begins at the
acceptance of wisdom.



The resulting new innovations though many, are simple
derivatives of circuitous technology. Tools, means, methods,
efficiencies...all are simple but plodding enhancements yet the core of
the
technology still lies with rudimentary tools, rudimentary materials and
rudimentary physics...

I agree, the core of technology is based in the physics of the
material; yet, the innovations of modern technology are not
circuitous...they are destined for obsolescence

Again agreed, but is this not the very meaning of circuitous technology?

and have failed to
provide such enhancement of product, that may be derived only from the
assimulation of a human eye and the articulation of a man's hand.
Therefore, man is the greatest technological force at work.

And man is the greatest threat to the very technology that sets him apart in
the way. Ironic isn't it?

As man
returns to the basic material, so too must he return to the first
principles of working the wood...to cut, to shape, to fasten...to find
an answer to what is living trade?

In this there is peace. It is this rudimentary and basic need that drives
many of us to spend countless hours and dollars in pursuit of the basic
skills civilization, though its advancement, has allowed us to forget.

g'night DA. As it was before, agreement is simple to find. I raise my glass,
and toddle off to bed.

Rob

"Bay Area Dave" wrote in message ...
Chuck, have you found yourself in yet ANOTHER ****ing
contest?? LOL! You go!

Not really in your league is he?

By the way, we're still waiting for you to explain your lying and
slandering.

Greg

Bay Area Dave wrote in message .com...

Chuck, have you found yourself in yet ANOTHER ****ing
contest??

I've been in exactly two "****ing contests" in recent memory. One
with you and one with D.A.

Think about it.


Chuck Vance

Larry Jaques wrote in message . ..

On Tue, 18 May 2004 08:23:32 -0500, Conan the Librarian
brought forth from the murky depths:

I dunno, Lar. I don't seem to have that problem. :-)

Yeah, you finish a project or two a year, don't you?

Sometimes even more. Or at least I did until I got back into
flyfishing. I've been working on a hutch for SWMBO for months now.
In the meantime I've been doing smaller projects for special
occasions, but this darned hutch is my albatros now.

No stain there, just shellac. What looks like blotching is actually
some curl. Here's a photo of a different project that shows some of the
neat grain the stuff has: http://uweb.txstate.edu/~cv01/repisa.gif

Yes, better.

It's unlike any pine I've worked with before or since. I just wish
I had an idea of what it's real name is so I could try to track some
more down.

The panel in that picture was about as heavy as a maple panel of
similar size, and the wood *scraped* beautifully. Not your granddad's
pine for sure. (Well, actually it might be more like what he could have
gotten.)

Yeah, the larger pineywood forests they had 70+ years ago prolly
were nicer than the borg-a-matic pretzels they turn out now.

What we have now is tree factories. No comparison whatsoever.

Tendjew. You were starting to worry me. I was wondering if you
normally burned the stuff when you lived in lowCal.

No, those who used fireplaces ordered oak (sigh), avocado (sigh),
or yewcallapeetusez. I saw manzanita growing (small) out in the
wilds of the deserts we knew as the "California foothills". Y'know,
4-6 INCHES in diameter and 8' tall. Veritable dinosaur teeth. The
only mesquite I saw was in bags: soak 'n smoke BBQ chips. =:0

Every once in a while I'll see some mesquite in firewood bundles
they sell in front of convenience stores around here. Ironically,
mesquite was usually considered a trash wood until us yuppie
wooddorkers got a hold of it and drove the price up.


Chuck Vance

"Rob Stokes" wrote in message:

Don't discount the strength of a natural challenge; it's been the father of
the majority of the world we know today and continues to be thr driving
force behind the very payckecks many people spend in an attempt to re-find
their roots.

The strength of natural challenge is, of course, a viable force; most
evident in the proliferation of sports; what caused me climb to the
top of a redwood tree. For root cause, however, I perceive the force
of living trade, to work wood or metal or soil, to be an immanent
force of man's nature; an applied subconscious mental event with no
connection to historical fact.

The Craftsman's natural ability for improvement is spawned from many core
ideals however the prime mover for improvment, as it is in so many cases, is
the efficiencies needed to compete with those who are on a like quest. These
efficiencies are found in both time and materials resulting in lower cost,
larger profit or perhaps both.

Profit as a motivational force does more to negate the propagation of
living trade than to reinforce man's knowledge and understanding of
the basic material. Industrialization induces a narrow view of the
trade subject; while, the introduction of modern machines, which
require modern materials, separates man from the perception of his own
potential.

to realize these gains have themselves taken a life or pride where product
produced by those who excel above the basic need for feed is measured in the
fineness of the skills required to make the product efficient in the first
place.

I am not sure what you mean here, but let's emphasize skill.
Demonstrable skill is individual expertise with tool and technique,
where a man's common sense and manual dexterity will prevail; whereas,
production efficiency is a mental exercise, knowing what you want to
build and planning each step well in advance of your feet; this, too,
is cumulative skill, most evident in the finished product, but
undoubtedly the least appreciated.

The quest for happiness begins at the acceptance of wisdom.

Well, you're talking to the guy who has been accused of being a legend
in his own mind on this very thread; I suppose my accepted wisdom is
not to be overly wise in approaching living trade. No man is the
master; working wood is an infinite phenomenon, the more you know the
more you realize you know very little. But, I perceive the pursuit of
living trade to be a life's journey.

but is this not the very meaning of circuitous technology?
And man is the greatest threat to the very technology that sets him apart in
the way. Ironic isn't it?

Ironic, indeed, if you define circuitous as a neanderphobe with more
planes then brains. The problem with today's technology is that
innovation is the provenance of machine and tool manufacturers,
computer science, and the industrial complex...none, of whom, work
wood.
Two decades ago, I located shelf standard products that would have
provided retrofit to the standard tablesaw for numerical control of
fence and the height/angle adjustments of the blade...for less than a
thousand dollars. Yet, today, no standard tablesaw, at any price, is
fitted for these basic functions.
Still, the most intricate detail in wood can only be accomplished with
a single edge of steel...

In this there is peace.

A man in pursuit of living trade is at peace. You might peruse the
Four Ages in the Metamorphoses of Ovid for the effects of technology
on man's peace from the man who lived his trade two-thousand years
ago.
In defining living trade, and bringing to light the underlying
resource that is the driving force of living trade, perhaps, we may
witness a renaissance in man's inherent capability to work wood...
As always, Rob, you have provided opportunity...thank you.

I think this thread has gone on long enough. Geesh. From what I
gather is being said is that no one man has EVER known ALL there is to
know about woodworking ever--especially since, I guess, none of us
know what the future holds. So with this sort if nit-picking, sort of
silly argument, the original poster will always be right. I guess
what he wants is everybody to say is, "Geez. You knw what? You're
right."

I agree with the person who said the rest of us are uninterested.

Sort of like when the wife asks you waht time it is and you tell her
it's, say, 4:15. And your eight-year-old says, "No, daddy. It's
actually 4:13 and 18 seconds. It's not 4:15. You're lying!" (True
story!) How can you argue?! The kid was 'technically' right.
Extremely nitpicky and sort of anal but, technically right.

I don't want to start yet another flame war that goes off on another
tangent but I, myself, have to disagree with the original poster
because I do believe there was a man who lived on this earth who DID
know everything that was and ever will be known about woodworking and
he was a carpenter who lived 2,000 years ago who was later hung on a
cross.

If enybody knew everything there is to know about wood (and
woodworking and everything else), it was Him.

(I am ready to take the hits now.)










(D. A. Clark) wrote in message . com...
"Rob Stokes" wrote in message:
We do it tomorrow because we did it today, and there's the natural challenge
to make our next product better than our last. The trade lives because as
intelligent as the human race is, a true craftsman can always make "it"
better...

Hello Rob,
In seeking an answer to living trade, I cannot accept the 'just
because' or the 'natural challenge' thesis as the whole of
understanding. And while common sense and manual dexterity can
enhance individual accomplishment in pursuit of trade, I do not adhere
to a belief in the natural craftsman's ability for improvement.
Knowledge is not collective per individual, like books on a shelf; but
rather cumulative in the subconsious of experience...and this is
derived through time in apprenticeship, which is a lifelong pursuit.


The resulting new innovations though many, are simple
derivatives of circuitous technology. Tools, means, methods,
efficiencies...all are simple but plodding enhancements yet the core of the
technology still lies with rudimentary tools, rudimentary materials and
rudimentary physics...

I agree, the core of technology is based in the physics of the
material; yet, the innovations of modern technology are not
circuitous...they are destined for obsolescence and have failed to
provide such enhancement of product, that may be derived only from the
assimulation of a human eye and the articulation of a man's hand.
Therefore, man is the greatest technological force at work. As man
returns to the basic material, so too must he return to the first
principles of working the wood...to cut, to shape, to fasten...to find
an answer to what is living trade?

Zuchick, is that you?

dave

Ray Kinzler wrote:

I don't want to start yet another flame war that goes off on another
tangent but I, myself, have to disagree with the original poster
because I do believe there was a man who lived on this earth who DID
know everything that was and ever will be known about woodworking and
he was a carpenter who lived 2,000 years ago who was later hung on a
cross.

If enybody knew everything there is to know about wood (and
woodworking and everything else), it was Him.

(I am ready to take the hits now.)

Ray Kinzler wrote:

I think this thread has gone on long enough. Geesh. From what I
gather is being said is that no one man has EVER known ALL there is to
know about woodworking ever--especially since, I guess, none of us
know what the future holds. So with this sort if nit-picking, sort of
silly argument, the original poster will always be right. I guess
what he wants is everybody to say is, "Geez. You knw what? You're
right."

Of course D.A. will always be right. He created the term "living
trade", and is free to define it as he sees fit. Anyone entering into
the discussion to disagree has lost before he even started.

It's a heck of a way to carry on a "debate". Any other participants
must either agree with him and acknowledge his greatness or they are a
priori wrong. And to top it off, he berates those who dare to point out
his arrogance and pretentiousness.



Chuck Vance

nope.


Bay Area Dave wrote in message .com...
Zuchick, is that you?

dave

Ray Kinzler wrote:

I don't want to start yet another flame war that goes off on another
tangent but I, myself, have to disagree with the original poster
because I do believe there was a man who lived on this earth who DID
know everything that was and ever will be known about woodworking and
he was a carpenter who lived 2,000 years ago who was later hung on a
cross.

If enybody knew everything there is to know about wood (and
woodworking and everything else), it was Him.

(I am ready to take the hits now.)

On 1 May 2004 09:16:21 -0700, (D. A. Clark)
posted:

No two men have the same set of tools or the same set of experiences;
therefore, no two men may have the same knowledge or understanding of
working wood. It is living trade.

Nothing to do with it.

The term "living trade" is just a parallel with "living language"

Any language which is spoken by living humans evolves and changes.
The opposite is a "dead language" such as Latin which is static and
does not evolve or change.

Similarly for "living trade". I'll let others think of "dead trades".

LOL!!!

Oh man, there goes the monitor...!

Rob

--


http://www.robswoodworking.com

"Bay Area Dave" wrote in message
. com...
Zuchick, is that you?

dave
snipped

Chuck:

I think it's more a conversation than a debate and the root of the
conversation is a interpretation of history and an attempt at using it to
forecast the future as it pertains to skills being lost. I don't believe
I've agreed or disagreed with DA (individual points aside) and I don't feel
this is a win/lose conversation, nor do I perceive his quest to strike a
conversation as arrogance.

Then again, I enjoy a good single malt and have been known to ramble about
the sublime on occasion so maybe it's all perception g!

Rob

--


http://www.robswoodworking.com

"Conan the Librarian" wrote in message
...
Ray Kinzler wrote:

I think this thread has gone on long enough. Geesh. From what I
gather is being said is that no one man has EVER known ALL there is to
know about woodworking ever--especially since, I guess, none of us
know what the future holds. So with this sort if nit-picking, sort of
silly argument, the original poster will always be right. I guess
what he wants is everybody to say is, "Geez. You knw what? You're
right."

Of course D.A. will always be right. He created the term "living
trade", and is free to define it as he sees fit. Anyone entering into
the discussion to disagree has lost before he even started.

It's a heck of a way to carry on a "debate". Any other participants
must either agree with him and acknowledge his greatness or they are a
priori wrong. And to top it off, he berates those who dare to point out
his arrogance and pretentiousness.



Chuck Vance

"Rob Stokes" wrote in message
news:exVqc.630$gx1.531@clgrps12...

Chuck:

I think it's more a conversation than a debate and the root of the
conversation is a interpretation of history and an attempt at using it to
forecast the future as it pertains to skills being lost. I don't believe
I've agreed or disagreed with DA (individual points aside) and I
don't feel
this is a win/lose conversation, nor do I perceive his quest to strike a
conversation as arrogance.

Then again, I enjoy a good single malt and have been known to ramble
about
the sublime on occasion so maybe it's all perception g!

Rob,

I respect your opinion and don't begrudge you choosing to
participate in the discussion. My sole issue in all of this is our
friend. He makes a grand entrance to the wreck once every few years and
seems to expect that everyone should stop what they're talking about and
concentrate solely on his personal great white whale.

While sitting on his imagined lofty perch, he displays an attitude
of condescension and disregard towards the very people with whom he
ostensibly hopes to carry on a discussion. I love a good philosophical
discussion, but I choose to participate on my own terms. Unfortunately,
due to the way he frames the debate, it can only be done on *his* terms.

The only thing he has contributed to the wreck is this single
mantra. He doesn't bother to participate as an equal; instead he
chooses to virtually snipe the group. He takes a few potshots, checks
for casualties and then moves on until the next time he gets bored with
his Mensa meetings.

In that regard, he is no better than a troll. And I don't care for
trolls, no matter how well-versed they are with Roget's.

Anyhow, have fun with it. I know I'll continue to do the same. :-)


Chuck Vance

it appears you are STILL ****ing... so while YOU count the
****ing contests at TWO, you are getting maximum mileage out
of them. tsk, tsk. (Now it's time for you to have the last
word, Chucky, as I know you are unable to resist a
challenge, simple as it may be)


dave

Conan the Librarian wrote:

Rob,

I respect your opinion and don't begrudge you choosing to participate
in the discussion. My sole issue in all of this is our friend. He
makes a grand entrance to the wreck once every few years and seems to
expect that everyone should stop what they're talking about and
concentrate solely on his personal great white whale.

While sitting on his imagined lofty perch, he displays an attitude of
condescension and disregard towards the very people with whom he
ostensibly hopes to carry on a discussion. I love a good philosophical
discussion, but I choose to participate on my own terms. Unfortunately,
due to the way he frames the debate, it can only be done on *his* terms.

The only thing he has contributed to the wreck is this single
mantra. He doesn't bother to participate as an equal; instead he
chooses to virtually snipe the group. He takes a few potshots, checks
for casualties and then moves on until the next time he gets bored with
his Mensa meetings.

In that regard, he is no better than a troll. And I don't care for
trolls, no matter how well-versed they are with Roget's.

Anyhow, have fun with it. I know I'll continue to do the same. :-)


Chuck Vance

(Ray Kinzler) wrote in message
I think this thread has gone on long enough. Geesh. From what I
gather is being said is that no one man has EVER known ALL there is to
know about woodworking ever--especially since, I guess, none of us
know what the future holds. So with this sort if nit-picking, sort of
silly argument...

I guess, if you are willing to live life with your head stuck in the
sand, I can only assume that that butt sticking up is your real face.
Man is not the only woodworker; a beaver builds a dam, and a bird
builds a nest, but what does the woodchuck chuck? Chuck???
Certainly, the dumb animals of the world utilize the basic material
for their very survival, but would you ascribe man to an equal state
of ignorant grace? The monkey has an opposable thumb; it is in
seeking the resources of knowledge and understanding that sets man
apart.
There is a spot reserved for you in the corner of the inane. See
Conan, he has your pointy hat...

because I do believe there was a man who lived on this earth who DID
know everything that was and ever will be known about woodworking and
he was a carpenter who lived 2,000 years ago
If enybody knew everything there is to know about wood (and
woodworking and everything else), it was Him.

By invoking God in defence of your irrelevancies, you have accidently
struck upon a central theme in the assertation of what is living
trade. Those of us who believe in God would not deny His hand in all
that we think, say or do.
On your part, the assumption that Jesus, as the carpenter's son,
qualified himself as a woodworker is a fallacy. Otherwise, when
inquired of by the merchant...Ben Hur, 1956...Jesus would have been
there to finish the guy's table, but instead, was in the hills
contemplating his Father's business.

Hence, I maintain, that no two men may have the same knowledge or
understanding of working wood. It is an infinite phenomenon, and
thus, a living trade.

"If we don't change direction soon, we'll end up where we're going."

Professor Irwin Corey


Regards,
Tom.

Thomas J.Watson - Cabinetmaker (ret.)
tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (real email)
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1

Sandy wrote in message:

The term "living trade" is just a parallel with "living language"
Any language which is spoken by living humans evolves and changes.
The opposite is a "dead language" such as Latin which is static and
does not evolve or change.
Similarly for "living trade". I'll let others think of "dead trades".

In the context of terminologies, you might well assume a parallel by
definition of that which evolves and changes...but, what is your
point?
Stupidly, I have been accused of inventing the term living trade in
arcanum...oops, there's a dead language; when, in fact, the phrase is
merely common language usage, to describe a parameter for discussion.
Are you entering into this discussion, or are you one of Conan's
pointy-headed friends? Perhaps, you will elaborate on what others
think of dead trades...