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Dumb Dado Question
Some 40 years ago when I was in high school the shop teacher would stack
regular saw blades together to make dado cuts. Why shouldn't that be done? Tom |
#2
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Dumb Dado Question
For starters many saw blades centers are not flat. They may be hollow
ground and you would end up distorting the blades. Most are not designed to crosscut and leave a smooth bottom unless your are using a rip blade and are going with the grain. A good dado set is precision matched so that the bottoms of the cuts will be even. This is not likely to happen with common blades and especially if one of the blades has ever been sharpened. "Tom Lewis" wrote in message ... Some 40 years ago when I was in high school the shop teacher would stack regular saw blades together to make dado cuts. Why shouldn't that be done? Tom |
#3
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Dumb Dado Question
"Tom Lewis" wrote in message ... Some 40 years ago when I was in high school the shop teacher would stack regular saw blades together to make dado cuts. Why shouldn't that be done? Tom Accuracy for one. With the combination of blades you can get most any thickness and easily adjust with shims for a few thousandths if need be. It is easy to compensate for the undersized plywood. hey are also made to work together as a set. Blades may vary a bit from one manufacturer to another so just grabbing blades at random would not give repeatable results. Ed |
#4
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Dumb Dado Question
What looked to a youngster like a stack of regular blades, was probably a
stack of, you guessed it, stack dado blades. Even 40 years ago. O'course you could stack 6 Forrest blades to do a 3/4" dado and it would only set you back $600. -- ******** Bill Pounds http://www.billpounds.com "Tom Lewis" wrote in message ... Some 40 years ago when I was in high school the shop teacher would stack regular saw blades together to make dado cuts. Why shouldn't that be done? Tom |
#5
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Dumb Dado Question
I always thought the answer was chip removal and also the fact that the
inside chippers only have two teeth set on opposite ends which allows for setting them inside the teeth of the outside blades. Dumber question yet is the 8" Delta dado stack. One of the outer blades says "this side out". That's it. Does it mean facing out, which would work if I put next to the inside arbor plate which somehow translates to "this side in"? Or does it mean that the blade goes next to the arbor nut, ("out" from my perspective) but then it has to be positioned such that the "this side out" is actually facing in. Who's on first, etc. "Pounds on Wood" wrote in message s.com... What looked to a youngster like a stack of regular blades, was probably a stack of, you guessed it, stack dado blades. Even 40 years ago. O'course you could stack 6 Forrest blades to do a 3/4" dado and it would only set you back $600. -- ******** Bill Pounds http://www.billpounds.com "Tom Lewis" wrote in message ... Some 40 years ago when I was in high school the shop teacher would stack regular saw blades together to make dado cuts. Why shouldn't that be done? Tom |
#6
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Dumb Dado Question (dumber question yet)
Look at the tips of the outer blades (not the chippers) you should have
one side that some teeth are pointed toward the outer side of the blade if you look at the other blade the teeth should be pointed to the opposite side. this is how you figure out which is the left and the right side blades. CHRIS "Tom Kohlman" wrote in message et... I always thought the answer was chip removal and also the fact that the inside chippers only have two teeth set on opposite ends which allows for setting them inside the teeth of the outside blades. Dumber question yet is the 8" Delta dado stack. One of the outer blades says "this side out". That's it. Does it mean facing out, which would work if I put next to the inside arbor plate which somehow translates to "this side in"? Or does it mean that the blade goes next to the arbor nut, ("out" from my perspective) but then it has to be positioned such that the "this side out" is actually facing in. Who's on first, etc. |
#7
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Dumb Dado Question (dumber question yet)
Thanks Chris...now take me one step further!!! Left vs. right on the teeth
I can do...now what do I do with that information??? LOL So we come to a common point of reference, on the arbor nut side do I want teeth pointing in or out (or up or down or north/south or east/west or horizontal/vertical)...better yet, there is a washer welded onto each outer blade around the arbor hole...do they face towards the chippers or towards the arbor washers? (I could make a case for either way...towards the chippers to act as a shim, towards the arbor washers to stabilize the blades). Have actually tried them both ways and can't see much difference other than the latter seems to make for too tight of a dado but perfect if I add one or two of the cardboard shims that came with it. thanks again "Chris Melanson" wrote in message news:ClHec.41460$Sh4.19756@edtnps84... Look at the tips of the outer blades (not the chippers) you should have one side that some teeth are pointed toward the outer side of the blade if you look at the other blade the teeth should be pointed to the opposite side. this is how you figure out which is the left and the right side blades. CHRIS "Tom Kohlman" wrote in message et... I always thought the answer was chip removal and also the fact that the inside chippers only have two teeth set on opposite ends which allows for setting them inside the teeth of the outside blades. Dumber question yet is the 8" Delta dado stack. One of the outer blades says "this side out". That's it. Does it mean facing out, which would work if I put next to the inside arbor plate which somehow translates to "this side in"? Or does it mean that the blade goes next to the arbor nut, ("out" from my perspective) but then it has to be positioned such that the "this side out" is actually facing in. Who's on first, etc. |
#8
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Dumb Dado Question (dumber question yet)
"Chris Melanson" wrote in message news:ClHec.41460$Sh4.19756@edtnps84... Look at the tips of the outer blades (not the chippers) you should have one side that some teeth are pointed toward the outer side of the blade if you look at the other blade the teeth should be pointed to the opposite side. this is how you figure out which is the left and the right side blades. Let's take this one more step. The chippers have usually two or four teeth. You put four of them together between the outer blades to make the thickness you want. here do you place the teeth of each. One in back of the other? Stagger them? Put some distance between them? Does not matter at all? Ed |
#9
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Dumb Dado Question
"This side out" means outside of the stack. Given that and the teeth facing
the correct direction, means you got it right. "This side out" would be meaningless if it meant outside on the arbor, since there are left and right hand arbors out there.l -- Bill Pounds http://www.billpounds.com/woodshop "Tom Kohlman" wrote in message et... I always thought the answer was chip removal and also the fact that the inside chippers only have two teeth set on opposite ends which allows for setting them inside the teeth of the outside blades. Dumber question yet is the 8" Delta dado stack. One of the outer blades says "this side out". That's it. Does it mean facing out, which would work if I put next to the inside arbor plate which somehow translates to "this side in"? Or does it mean that the blade goes next to the arbor nut, ("out" from my perspective) but then it has to be positioned such that the "this side out" is actually facing in. Who's on first, etc. "Pounds on Wood" wrote in message s.com... What looked to a youngster like a stack of regular blades, was probably a stack of, you guessed it, stack dado blades. Even 40 years ago. O'course you could stack 6 Forrest blades to do a 3/4" dado and it would only set you back $600. -- ******** Bill Pounds http://www.billpounds.com "Tom Lewis" wrote in message ... Some 40 years ago when I was in high school the shop teacher would stack regular saw blades together to make dado cuts. Why shouldn't that be done? Tom |
#10
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Dumb Dado Question
Tom,
assuming it wasn't a dado set he was using, it is likely the blades were steel and not carbide tipped. Should you have a stack of carbide spinning at 3450rpm and one blade either slips or stops, the remaining blades will have so many teeth missing it'll look like the nightshift at the WaffleHouse. This assumes the freed teeth haven't turned you into a colander and you are still physically capable of looking at the mess. -- Greg "Tom Lewis" wrote in message ... Some 40 years ago when I was in high school the shop teacher would stack regular saw blades together to make dado cuts. Why shouldn't that be done? Tom |
#11
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Dumb Dado Question (dumber question yet)
On Tue, 13 Apr 2004 02:42:47 GMT, "Edwin Pawlowski"
wrote: Let's take this one more step. The chippers have usually two or four teeth. You put four of them together between the outer blades to make the thickness you want. here do you place the teeth of each. One in back of the other? Stagger them? Put some distance between them? Does not matter at all? Assuming the chippers are perfectly made, (balanced), it wouldn't matter as the rotational forces of the chipper(s) would place even load on the arbor/bearings as they spin. However, that would be a bad assumption. Nothing's perfect, and since I don't have a several-hundred-dollar set of dado blades, I assume mine are less perfect than others. ; I stagger them as best I can so that there is even distribution of weight about the arbor. I get little, if any, vibration using this method. (I've never done it any other way, so I don't know that I'd get any vibration jamming all the chipper blades' teeth right next to each other, either.) Fwiw, Michael |
#12
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Dumb Dado Question
"Tom Kohlman" wrote in
et: I always thought the answer was chip removal and also the fact that the inside chippers only have two teeth set on opposite ends which allows for setting them inside the teeth of the outside blades. Dumber question yet is the 8" Delta dado stack. One of the outer blades says "this side out". That's it. Does it mean facing out, which would work if I put next to the inside arbor plate which somehow translates to "this side in"? Or does it mean that the blade goes next to the arbor nut, ("out" from my perspective) but then it has to be positioned such that the "this side out" is actually facing in. Who's on first, etc. I was confused by that too. I came to the conclusion that the printed side should face the arbor. That gets the orientation of the teeth right as well as the little spacer disks that they have fixed on the inside of the outer blades. |
#13
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Dumb Dado Question
Secret wrote in message
Dumber question yet is the 8" Delta dado stack. One of the outer blades says "this side out". That's it. Does it mean facing out, which would work if I put next to the inside arbor plate which somehow translates to "this side in"? Or does it mean that the blade goes next to the arbor nut, ("out" from my perspective) but then it has to be positioned such that the "this side out" is actually facing in. Who's on first, etc. I was confused by that too. I came to the conclusion that the printed side should face the arbor. That gets the orientation of the teeth right as well as the little spacer disks that they have fixed on the inside of the outer blades. Forget the arbor, just chant to yourself: "OM, OM, The chippers go on the inside of the stack, the blades go on the outside" ... and you can't go wrong. Works for me. ;) -- www.e-woodshop.net Last update: 4/13/04 |
#14
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Dumb Dado Question
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#15
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Dumb Dado Question
Secret wrote in message
Actually with this set you would go wrong. There are round discs attached to the side of each outer blade. They are not thock enough to eb stiffeners but are just shims that are permamnently affixed to the blades. If you reverse the blades these shims would be on the outside of the set and you would not get cuts in any of the standard sizes. Sorry, but that still sounds like a no brainier to me. I tried to put it gently ... let me put it another way ... and not directed at you personally, you understand: Despite the fact that I've never seen a set that didn't come with specific instructions, and even supposing that these instructions were somehow MIA, then a good case can be made that anyone incapable of NOT being able to figure that out, or incapable of figuring out how to use all the blades and chippers in any Dado set, would highly likely be better off NOT using one in the first place without personal, hands-on instruction from someone who does. IOW, dado sets, of any ilk, are not to be taken lightly ... if you don't understand their use, don't rely on second hand information, get firsthand instruction. -- www.e-woodshop.net Last update: 4/13/04 |
#16
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Dumb Dado Question (dumber question yet)
In article ,
Tom Kohlman wrote: Thanks Chris...now take me one step further!!! Left vs. right on the teeth I can do...now what do I do with that information??? LOL So we come to a common point of reference, on the arbor nut side do I want teeth pointing in or out (or up or down or north/south or east/west or horizontal/vertical)...better yet, there is a washer welded onto each outer blade around the arbor hole...do they face towards the chippers or towards the arbor washers? (I could make a case for either way...towards the chippers to act as a shim, towards the arbor washers to stabilize the blades). Have actually tried them both ways and can't see much difference other than the latter seems to make for too tight of a dado but perfect if I add one or two of the cardboard shims that came with it. you want the 'flat side' of the teeth towards the other blade(s) installed, and the 'angled out' side of the teeth 'away from' the other blade(s). If you put _just_ the two outer blades together, with no chippers, you should have a combination that looks like a 'normal' blade. What you call the washer is probably a 'stiffener', and should be on the outside of the blade pack. i.e. on the side away from the other blade(s). If in doubt, _read_the_directions_. It is simply *amazing* what one can find out by doing that. |
#17
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Dumb Dado Question (dumber question yet)
In article ,
Edwin Pawlowski wrote: "Chris Melanson" wrote in message news:ClHec.41460$Sh4.19756@edtnps84... Look at the tips of the outer blades (not the chippers) you should have one side that some teeth are pointed toward the outer side of the blade if you look at the other blade the teeth should be pointed to the opposite side. this is how you figure out which is the left and the right side blades. Let's take this one more step. The chippers have usually two or four teeth. You put four of them together between the outer blades to make the thickness you want. here do you place the teeth of each. One in back of the other? Stagger them? Put some distance between them? Does not matter at all? Ed Given the option, staggering is preferable. It makes for a more even load on the saw bearings. A 'staggered' setup does not necessarily imply a uniform set of offsets as you go from one side to the other. sometimes there are benefits to be had if the 'angularly adjacent' teeth are not on physically adjacent chippers. The extreme case, 2-tooth chippers, with several of them set together, would result in a big 'chomp' as they all come in contact with the wood and "no" chomp, while the leading/descending tooth has cleared the (nearest the user part of the) piece, but the trailing/ascending tooth has not yet contacted the (farthest from the user part of the) piece. |
#18
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Dumb Dado Question
I have done this before and have had no problems. I worked in a lab once
where they bought cheap 8" blades in bulk (50 at a time maybe?) I used to stack these togther to make dado cuts. They were flat top ground blades and they made a pretty good cut. Not perfect, but better than some cheap stacked dadoes that I have seen.(the baldes were not exactly perfectly the same diameter, but really darn close.) Some one else stated that this would be dangerous if the blades slipped and the carbide teeth broke off and went flying. I don't buy this argument. First off, as long as you tighten the arbor nut properly, they are not going to slip. Secondly, this is no different than most stacked dado sets. On my delta set, the teeth all overlap each other. if the blades ever slipped (which they don't) the carbide would become projectiles as well. It is not an issue. I do agree that in general, it is probably cheaper just buy a stacked dado set. (Unless of coarse you have a pile of bulk blades setting there like i did. Just my opinion. -- Joe in Denver my woodworking website: http://www.the-wildings.com/shop/ "Tom Lewis" wrote in message ... Some 40 years ago when I was in high school the shop teacher would stack regular saw blades together to make dado cuts. Why shouldn't that be done? Tom |
#19
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Dumb Dado Question (dumber question yet)
SNIP If in doubt, _read_the_directions_. It is simply *amazing* what one
can find out by doing that. I ALWAYS DO...problem here is there weren't any...NADA...ZIP...ZILCH...all I got for the $99 was 2 blades, a handful of chippers and some cardboard shims in a cheap piece of plastic. "Robert Bonomi" wrote in message ervers.com... In article , Tom Kohlman wrote: Thanks Chris...now take me one step further!!! Left vs. right on the teeth I can do...now what do I do with that information??? LOL So we come to a common point of reference, on the arbor nut side do I want teeth pointing in or out (or up or down or north/south or east/west or horizontal/vertical)...better yet, there is a washer welded onto each outer blade around the arbor hole...do they face towards the chippers or towards the arbor washers? (I could make a case for either way...towards the chippers to act as a shim, towards the arbor washers to stabilize the blades). Have actually tried them both ways and can't see much difference other than the latter seems to make for too tight of a dado but perfect if I add one or two of the cardboard shims that came with it. you want the 'flat side' of the teeth towards the other blade(s) installed, and the 'angled out' side of the teeth 'away from' the other blade(s). If you put _just_ the two outer blades together, with no chippers, you should have a combination that looks like a 'normal' blade. What you call the washer is probably a 'stiffener', and should be on the outside of the blade pack. i.e. on the side away from the other blade(s). If in doubt, _read_the_directions_. It is simply *amazing* what one can find out by doing that. |
#20
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Dumb Dado Question
Swingman...I thought you were leaving the group?
It isn't a "no brainer" and the instructions were not MIA...it was a new pack and there were none that I recall but then again I ditched the cheap plastic factory "storage case" after a few uses in favor of a home-made wood box that gives me easy access to the parts, keeps them from banging against each other, doesn't take 20 minutes to get them all back in when I am done plus it holds the dado TS insert so everything is in one place. I'll ignore your previous comment about chippers sandwiched between the two outer blades. I concluded that must have been a personal reminder from you to you. Do what ya gotta do I guess. Read it often and don't forget your safety glasses. From what I've gleaned from the left/right in/out up/down posts, I think the answer is the round disks attached on the outer blades face in towards the chippers. That's the way I've always positioned them but have been getting less than stellar results and was wondering whether the blade orientation was wrong. Thanks to all for clarifying. "Swingman" wrote in message ... Secret wrote in message Actually with this set you would go wrong. There are round discs attached to the side of each outer blade. They are not thock enough to eb stiffeners but are just shims that are permamnently affixed to the blades. If you reverse the blades these shims would be on the outside of the set and you would not get cuts in any of the standard sizes. Sorry, but that still sounds like a no brainier to me. I tried to put it gently ... let me put it another way ... and not directed at you personally, you understand: Despite the fact that I've never seen a set that didn't come with specific instructions, and even supposing that these instructions were somehow MIA, then a good case can be made that anyone incapable of NOT being able to figure that out, or incapable of figuring out how to use all the blades and chippers in any Dado set, would highly likely be better off NOT using one in the first place without personal, hands-on instruction from someone who does. IOW, dado sets, of any ilk, are not to be taken lightly ... if you don't understand their use, don't rely on second hand information, get firsthand instruction. -- www.e-woodshop.net Last update: 4/13/04 |
#21
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Dumb Dado Question
I actually tried this last year when I needed to make large box joints
on my crapsman ts and couldn't afford to buy a dado. I found a set of 7 identical B&D 7-1/2" steel blades and stacked them with washers and poster board shims between them to get the right spacing. I cut 240 3/8" box joints with it. When I first started, the notches came out fairly nice requiring minimal clean up. After about 180 cuts, I had to do moderate clean up of each notch bottom with a chisel. After I finished I just threw away the blades since they only cost me $4.99 for the set. Would I do it again? ONLY if I HAD to cut dados and HAD no money. They made such noise I was scared out of my gourd the entire time. Tillman "Greg Millen" wrote in message ws.com... Tom, assuming it wasn't a dado set he was using, it is likely the blades were steel and not carbide tipped. Should you have a stack of carbide spinning at 3450rpm and one blade either slips or stops, the remaining blades will have so many teeth missing it'll look like the nightshift at the WaffleHouse. This assumes the freed teeth haven't turned you into a colander and you are still physically capable of looking at the mess. -- Greg "Tom Lewis" wrote in message ... Some 40 years ago when I was in high school the shop teacher would stack regular saw blades together to make dado cuts. Why shouldn't that be done? Tom |
#22
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Dumb Dado Question (dumber question yet)
"Robert Bonomi" wrote in message The extreme case, 2-tooth chippers, with several of them set together, would result in a big 'chomp' as they all come in contact with the wood and "no" chomp, while the leading/descending tooth has cleared the (nearest the user part of the) piece, but the trailing/ascending tooth has not yet contacted the (farthest from the user part of the) piece. Thanks, that makes a lot of sense. Ed |
#23
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Dumb Dado Question
Secret wrote in message
Actually with this set you would go wrong. There are round discs attached to the side of each outer blade. They are not thock enough to eb stiffeners but are just shims that are permamnently affixed to the blades. If you reverse the blades these shims would be on the outside of the set and you would not get cuts in any of the standard sizes. I would say that you might be right, and just well might do that, IF you only know enough about table saws, table saw blades, their operation and use, to be a danger to yourself. -- www.e-woodshop.net Last update: 4/13/04 |
#24
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Dumb Dado Question
"Tom Kohlman" wrote in message
Swingman...I thought you were leaving the group? You will definitely need to pay more attention than that when you're using a table saw with a dado set. It isn't a "no brainer" and the instructions were not MIA...it was a new pack and there were none that I recall but then again I ditched the cheap plastic factory "storage case" after a few uses in favor of a home-made wood box that gives me easy access to the parts, keeps them from banging against each other, doesn't take 20 minutes to get them all back in when I am done plus it holds the dado TS insert so everything is in one place. I'll ignore your previous comment about chippers sandwiched between the two outer blades. I concluded that must have been a personal reminder from you to you. Do what ya gotta do I guess. Read it often and don't forget your safety glasses. Anyone who has to ask, on a public forum, how to assemble and use a dado set, and in particular ask a question of that basic a nature, would do well to get some experienced, hands on guidance, in person, before attempting to use one. You're spinning way too much metal to be guessing. From what I've gleaned from the left/right in/out up/down posts, I think the answer is the round disks attached on the outer blades face in towards the chippers. You "think"??! ... sorry, that ain't gonna cut it around that much spinning metal. If you don't know for sure, don't ... until you do. But yes ... that answer _is_ pretty much the definition of a "no brainer". -- www.e-woodshop.net Last update: 4/13/04 |
#25
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Dumb Dado Question
"Swingman" wrote in
: Secret wrote in message Actually with this set you would go wrong. There are round discs attached to the side of each outer blade. They are not thock enough to eb stiffeners but are just shims that are permamnently affixed to the blades. If you reverse the blades these shims would be on the outside of the set and you would not get cuts in any of the standard sizes. I would say that you might be right, and just well might do that, IF you only know enough about table saws, table saw blades, their operation and use, to be a danger to yourself. Thanks for the lesson and the accompanying self righteous attitude. Perhaps now you can go back and read the original post. The OP questioned that, in so much as they are labeled in what appears to be contradiction to the correct orientation. If you follow the lableling (and they DO NOT come with instructions) you will wind up with the outer blades reversed. By taking the extra moment to look at them you will realize that the labeling is misleading. I thought I made that clear in my post. But what should be equally clear to someone who clearly knows everything is that reversing the position of the outer blades will not make the set any less safe to operate, just somewhat less accurate. |
#26
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Dumb Dado Question
Secret wrote in message
"Swingman" wrote in Secret wrote in message Actually with this set you would go wrong. There are round discs attached to the side of each outer blade. They are not thock enough to eb stiffeners but are just shims that are permamnently affixed to the blades. If you reverse the blades these shims would be on the outside of the set and you would not get cuts in any of the standard sizes. I would say that you might be right, and just well might do that, IF you only know enough about table saws, table saw blades, their operation and use, to be a danger to yourself. Thanks for the lesson and the accompanying self righteous attitude. As I said, it wasn't directed at you ... but the fact remains that whoever displayed the original ignorance should be strongly warned, and be thankful that the "self righteous attitude", as you call it, is not accompanied by flying carbide teeth and/or bits of steel. -- www.e-woodshop.net Last update: 4/13/04 |
#27
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Dumb Dado Question
Swingman
I was the OP. As stated previously, I was doing it correctly but not real pleased with the results which led to the question in the first place. As for "spinning metal", I probably have a few thousand more miles of it under my belt than you do but if playing Mom makes you feel good, that have at it. "Swingman" wrote in message ... Secret wrote in message "Swingman" wrote in Secret wrote in message Actually with this set you would go wrong. There are round discs attached to the side of each outer blade. They are not thock enough to eb stiffeners but are just shims that are permamnently affixed to the blades. If you reverse the blades these shims would be on the outside of the set and you would not get cuts in any of the standard sizes. I would say that you might be right, and just well might do that, IF you only know enough about table saws, table saw blades, their operation and use, to be a danger to yourself. Thanks for the lesson and the accompanying self righteous attitude. As I said, it wasn't directed at you ... but the fact remains that whoever displayed the original ignorance should be strongly warned, and be thankful that the "self righteous attitude", as you call it, is not accompanied by flying carbide teeth and/or bits of steel. -- www.e-woodshop.net Last update: 4/13/04 |
#28
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Dumb Dado Question
"Tom Kohlman" wrote in message Swingman As for "spinning metal", I probably have a few thousand more miles of it under my belt than you do but if playing Mom makes you feel good, that have at it. Then you should be damn thankful if you are still in one piece. - www.e-woodshop.net Last update: 4/13/04 |
#29
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Dumb Dado Question
....in one piece with every appendage I was born with still here. I did one
stupid mistake that resulted in blood back in 1983 (I think...might have been 1984). Beat that "Mom". Sorry you had to take the time to nose into what I still think was a legit question to a group of people that are generally very helpful. Forget the fact that I've only witnessed you "sniping" without offering anything of value to anybody posting to this NG. As I have been such a bad bad boy, if I were you, I would plonk me. FH "Swingman" wrote in message ... "Tom Kohlman" wrote in message Swingman As for "spinning metal", I probably have a few thousand more miles of it under my belt than you do but if playing Mom makes you feel good, that have at it. Then you should be damn thankful if you are still in one piece. - www.e-woodshop.net Last update: 4/13/04 |
#30
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Dumb Dado Question
"Tom Kohlman" wrote in message ...in one piece with every appendage I was born with still here. I did one stupid mistake that resulted in blood back in 1983 (I think...might have been 1984). Beat that "Mom". If you have some wood, better go knock on it. Sorry you had to take the time to nose into what I still think was a legit question to a group of people that are generally very helpful. Forget the fact that I've only witnessed you "sniping" without offering anything of value to anybody posting to this NG. Mom would tell you the same thing: Pay more attention all around and you'll be safer, and better informed. -- www.e-woodshop.net Last update: 4/13/04 |
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