I am Woodcraft yesterday and I am looking at the Saw Stop saws. No money to
buy one, but just thinking when I upgrade maybe I will go that route. On
the saw there is a video playing that is demonstrating the how the saw
works.

Some other customer stands next to me and says: "What they don't tell you is
that after the saw does its thing in an emergency you need to buy new parts
from them to make the saw work again."

I say: "But you still have your fingers"

He then says: "But your saw won't work again until you buy the parts - from
them!"

I almost replied again with "You still have your fingers" but I figured it
was pointless. Apparently this guy has figured out that the corporate plan
is to save your fingers but stick it to you in the wallet afterwards.

Larry C

On 1/7/2010 3:33 PM, Larry C wrote:
I am Woodcraft yesterday and I am looking at the Saw Stop saws. No
money to buy one, but just thinking when I upgrade maybe I will go that
route. On the saw there is a video playing that is demonstrating the how
the saw works.

Some other customer stands next to me and says: "What they don't tell
you is that after the saw does its thing in an emergency you need to buy
new parts from them to make the saw work again."

I say: "But you still have your fingers"

He then says: "But your saw won't work again until you buy the parts -
from them!"

I almost replied again with "You still have your fingers" but I figured
it was pointless. Apparently this guy has figured out that the corporate
plan is to save your fingers but stick it to you in the wallet afterwards.

I kept telling my youngest daughter that, on a daily basis, roughly half
the people she deals with are below average IQ ... but she responded
that I didn't factor in that many of them might be concentrated in one
area ... wherever it is that Al Franken lives.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

On Jan 7, 4:33*pm, "Larry C"
wrote:
I am Woodcraft yesterday and I am looking at the Saw Stop saws. *No money to
buy one, but just thinking when I upgrade maybe I will go that route. *On
the saw there is a video playing that is demonstrating the how the saw
works.

Some other customer stands next to me and says: "What they don't tell you is
that after the saw does its thing in an emergency you need to buy new parts
from them to make the saw work again."

I say: "But you still have your fingers"

He then says: "But your saw won't work again until you buy the parts - from
them!"

I almost replied again with "You still have your fingers" but I figured it
was pointless. *Apparently this guy has figured out that the corporate plan
is to save your fingers but stick it to you in the wallet afterwards.

Larry C

He was probably trying to offset the cost of a wiener vs the cost of
the replacement part.

I have personally never been at risk of having my wiener injured by
the table saw but I think I would be willing to a pay a little more
for the saw if it would help avoid that. I guess maybe I should be
careful, the darng thing is so long it could get all tangled up and at
risk of injury during a ripping op if I wasn't careful.

On Jan 7, 2:18*pm, Robatoy wrote:
On Jan 7, 4:33*pm, "Larry C"
wrote:





I am Woodcraft yesterday and I am looking at the Saw Stop saws. *No money to
buy one, but just thinking when I upgrade maybe I will go that route. *On
the saw there is a video playing that is demonstrating the how the saw
works.

Some other customer stands next to me and says: "What they don't tell you is
that after the saw does its thing in an emergency you need to buy new parts
from them to make the saw work again."

I say: "But you still have your fingers"

He then says: "But your saw won't work again until you buy the parts - from
them!"

I almost replied again with "You still have your fingers" but I figured it
was pointless. *Apparently this guy has figured out that the corporate plan
is to save your fingers but stick it to you in the wallet afterwards.

Larry C

He was probably trying to offset the cost of a wiener vs the cost of
the replacement part.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

On Jan 7, 4:43*pm, Swingman wrote:
On 1/7/2010 3:33 PM, Larry C wrote:



I am Woodcraft yesterday and I am looking at the Saw Stop saws. *No
money to buy one, but just thinking when I upgrade maybe I will go that
route. On the saw there is a video playing that is demonstrating the how
the saw works.

Some other customer stands next to me and says: "What they don't tell
you is that after the saw does its thing in an emergency you need to buy
new parts from them to make the saw work again."

I say: "But you still have your fingers"

He then says: "But your saw won't work again until you buy the parts -
from them!"

I almost replied again with "You still have your fingers" but I figured
it was pointless. Apparently this guy has figured out that the corporate
plan is to save your fingers but stick it to you in the wallet afterwards.

I kept telling my youngest daughter that, on a daily basis, roughly half
the people she deals with are below average IQ ... but she responded
that I didn't factor in that many of them might be concentrated in one
area ... wherever it is that Al Franken lives.

--www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

I think you meant to write Michelle Bachman.

On 1/7/2010 4:59 PM, GarageWoodworks wrote:
On Jan 7, 4:43 pm, wrote:


I kept telling my youngest daughter that, on a daily basis, roughly half
the people she deals with are below average IQ ... but she responded
that I didn't factor in that many of them might be concentrated in one
area ... wherever it is that Al Franken lives.

--www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

I think you meant to write Michelle Bachman.

Nope ... wouldn't know who she is if she bit me on the butt. Did she
cheat on her taxes also?

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

On Thu, 07 Jan 2010 16:33:06 -0500, Larry C wrote:

Some other customer stands next to me and says: "What they don't tell
you is that after the saw does its thing in an emergency you need to buy
new parts from them to make the saw work again."

Chuckle. I just tell them they can't even open the emergency room door
for that amount of money :-).

--
Intelligence is an experiment that failed - G. B. Shaw

Swingman wrote:

I kept telling my youngest daughter that, on a daily basis, roughly
half the people she deals with are below average IQ ... but she
responded that I didn't factor in that many of them might be
concentrated in one area ... wherever it is that Al Franken lives.

Believe it or not, most of the people she deals with are above the average
IQ. Here's why.

1. Almost all women have average IQs (90-110), yielding an average of 100.
Theirs is not a bell curve so much as a horizontal line.
2. Men are pretty evenly distributed between 50 and 150, again yielding an
average of 100. Men's intelligence curve is also pretty much a straight line
but instead of horizontal, it's diagonal. Now very many of men below, say,
80 are locked up somewhere, so the one's she runs into are in the range of
80-150, or an average of 120 or so, significantly above average.

An interesting consequence of the above is that your average man (on the
street) is smarter than your average woman.

"Larry C" wrote in message
...
I am Woodcraft yesterday and I am looking at the Saw Stop saws. No money
to buy one, but just thinking when I upgrade maybe I will go that route.
On the saw there is a video playing that is demonstrating the how the saw
works.

Some other customer stands next to me and says: "What they don't tell you
is that after the saw does its thing in an emergency you need to buy new
parts from them to make the saw work again."

I say: "But you still have your fingers"

He then says: "But your saw won't work again until you buy the parts -
from them!"

I almost replied again with "You still have your fingers" but I figured it
was pointless. Apparently this guy has figured out that the corporate
plan is to save your fingers but stick it to you in the wallet afterwards.

Larry C


Too bad you did not think to ask him about Global Warming. LOL

"SonomaProducts.com" wrote in message
...
I have personally never been at risk of having my wiener injured by
the table saw but I think I would be willing to a pay a little more
for the saw if it would help avoid that. I guess maybe I should be
careful, the darng thing is so long it could get all tangled up and at
risk of injury during a ripping op if I wasn't careful.


Jeeez... Really, it could get tangled up? Just how limp are you man. ;~)

On 1/7/2010 6:20 PM, HeyBub wrote:

Believe it or not, most of the people she deals with are above the average
IQ. Here's why.

Fail

... she sells women's handbags.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

Subject

One of my favorites for demonstrating stupidity:

"Me and Charlie went to the movie."

Hint:
It's the structure not the content.

Lew

"HeyBub" wrote in message
m...
.. Men's intelligence curve is also pretty much a straight line
but instead of horizontal, it's diagonal. Now very many of men
below, say, 80 are locked up somewhere,

or in public office...

--
Nonny

ELOQUIDIOT (n) A highly educated, sophisticated,
and articulate person who has absolutely no clue
concerning what they are talking about.
The person is typically a media commentator or politician.

"Lew Hodgett" wrote in message
...
Subject

One of my favorites for demonstrating stupidity:

"Me and Charlie went to the movie."

Hint:
It's the structure not the content.

....to the theater?...

--
Nonny

ELOQUIDIOT (n) A highly educated, sophisticated,
and articulate person who has absolutely no clue
concerning what they are talking about.
The person is typically a media commentator or politician.

Swingman wrote:

.... snip

I kept telling my youngest daughter that, on a daily basis, roughly half
the people she deals with are below average IQ ... but she responded
that I didn't factor in that many of them might be concentrated in one
area ... wherever it is that Al Franken lives.


LOL! Dang it! Now I've gotta go find the windex.

--

There is never a situation where having more rounds is a disadvantage

Rob Leatham

On Jan 7, 8:44*pm, "Nonny" wrote:
"Lew Hodgett" wrote in message


ELOQUIDIOT (n) A highly educated, sophisticated,
and articulate person who has absolutely no clue
concerning what they are talking about.
The person is typically a media commentator or politician.

OK - kinda old but seems appropriate:

A self-made Texas oilman/rancher billionaire flew his private jet to
visit his son at Harvard. He was supposed to meet him at the campus
law library. Walking across the campus in blue jeans and boots, he
stopped a young preppy law student to ask for directions.

"Son, can you tell me where the law library is at?"

The young student put on a look of disgust and replied "Sir this is
Harvard. At Harvard we do not end our sentences with a preposition."

The older gentleman shrugged and said "You are absolutely right. Can
you tell me where the law library is at.....ASSHOLE!"

RonB

"Swingman" wrote in message
...
On 1/7/2010 4:59 PM, GarageWoodworks wrote:
On Jan 7, 4:43 pm, wrote:


I kept telling my youngest daughter that, on a daily basis, roughly half
the people she deals with are below average IQ ... but she responded
that I didn't factor in that many of them might be concentrated in one
area ... wherever it is that Al Franken lives.

--www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

I think you meant to write Michelle Bachman.

Nope ... wouldn't know who she is if she bit me on the butt. Did she cheat
on her taxes also?

Frankin paid his taxes just to the wrong state, Bachmann tell the poor to
pull up there bootstraps then collects welfare for her farm to almost
800,000, it's a republican Hippocratic oath thing.Forget the coolaid chew
the teabag

"Leon" wrote in message
...

"Larry C" wrote in message
...
I am Woodcraft yesterday and I am looking at the Saw Stop saws. No money
to buy one, but just thinking when I upgrade maybe I will go that route.
On the saw there is a video playing that is demonstrating the how the saw
works.

Some other customer stands next to me and says: "What they don't tell you
is that after the saw does its thing in an emergency you need to buy new
parts from them to make the saw work again."

I say: "But you still have your fingers"

He then says: "But your saw won't work again until you buy the parts -
from them!"

I almost replied again with "You still have your fingers" but I figured
it was pointless. Apparently this guy has figured out that the corporate
plan is to save your fingers but stick it to you in the wallet
afterwards.

Larry C


Too bad you did not think to ask him about Global Warming. LOL
I love how the anti climate change conspiracists always come out in winter
....it's not that hot right now!
Talking 1.5 to 3.5 degrees more at the poles than at the equator. The ice
flows are disappearing .
But then again maybe that puddle at the end of your driveway didn't have ice
on it like it did the same time last year.
Do your own research ..lol

On 1/7/2010 9:57 PM, Rusty wrote:

Frankin paid his taxes just to the wrong state, Bachmann tell the poor to
pull up there bootstraps then collects welfare for her farm to almost
800,000, it's a republican Hippocratic oath thing.Forget the coolaid chew
the teabag

IP Information - 70.67.34.24
Host name S01060020ed678525.pi.shawcable.net
Country Canada Canada
Country Code CA
Region British Columbia
City Port Alberni
Latitude 49.2333
Longitude -124.8

.... and why would YOU give a ****, eh?

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

Rusty wrote:


"Swingman" wrote in message
...
On 1/7/2010 4:59 PM, GarageWoodworks wrote:
On Jan 7, 4:43 pm, wrote:


I kept telling my youngest daughter that, on a daily basis, roughly
half the people she deals with are below average IQ ... but she
responded that I didn't factor in that many of them might be
concentrated in one area ... wherever it is that Al Franken lives.

--www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

I think you meant to write Michelle Bachman.

Nope ... wouldn't know who she is if she bit me on the butt. Did she
cheat on her taxes also?

Frankin paid his taxes just to the wrong state,

Actually, that is not really true:
http://wcco.com/realitycheck/al.franken.taxes.2.712757.html
http://newsmax.com/RonaldKessler/al-franken-taxes/2009/02/06/id/340085
It is really unknown whether he paid the proper amount in his own state
because he hasn't released his tax returns. That also doesn't explain the
fact that, even when working in New York, and claiming to live there, he
failed to pay a $25,000 fine for failing to carry workers' compensation for
his employees. Now, one would think that a champion of the little guy and
the middle class would have been scrupulously careful to make sure he was
abiding by workers' compensation requirements, wouldn't you?


Bachmann tell the poor to
pull up there bootstraps then collects welfare for her farm to almost
800,000,

Um, if you are referring to legally eligible farm subsidies, there is a
vast difference between something legally granted and failing to pay legally
required taxes or carry legally required workers comp insurance.


it's a republican Hippocratic oath thing.Forget the coolaid chew
the teabag

Not nearly so much as the leftwing that whines and moans about the "rich"
not paying their fair share when a) they themselves are wealthy, and b)
there is nothing preventing them from paying more than they owe.


--

There is never a situation where having more rounds is a disadvantage

Rob Leatham

On Jan 7, 8:26*pm, "Lew Hodgett" wrote:
Subject

One of my favorites for demonstrating stupidity:

"Me and Charlie went to the movie."

Hint:
It's the structure not the content.

What movie did you see?

R

On Jan 7, 4:43*pm, Swingman wrote:

I kept telling my youngest daughter that, on a daily basis, roughly half
the people she deals with are below average IQ ... but she responded
that I didn't factor in that many of them might be concentrated in one
area ... wherever it is that Al Franken lives.

Franken went to Harvard and graduated cum laude, so his IQ isn't in
question. If you disagree with his politics, ethics or whatever else,
that might allow you to call him stupid, but not question his IQ.

R

On Jan 7, 11:26*pm, Swingman wrote:
On 1/7/2010 9:57 PM, Rusty wrote:

Frankin paid his taxes just to the wrong state, Bachmann tell the poor to
pull up there bootstraps then collects welfare for her farm to almost
800,000, it's a republican Hippocratic oath thing.Forget the coolaid chew
the teabag

IP Information - 70.67.34.24
Host name * * * S01060020ed678525.pi.shawcable.net
Country * * * * Canada Canada
Country Code * *CA
Region *British Columbia
City * *Port Alberni
Latitude * * * *49.2333
Longitude * * * -124.8

... and why would YOU give a ****, eh?

Harsh.



--www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

RicodJour wrote:
On Jan 7, 4:43 pm, Swingman wrote:

I kept telling my youngest daughter that, on a daily basis, roughly
half the people she deals with are below average IQ ... but she
responded that I didn't factor in that many of them might be
concentrated in one area ... wherever it is that Al Franken lives.

Franken went to Harvard and graduated cum laude, so his IQ isn't in
question. If you disagree with his politics, ethics or whatever else,
that might allow you to call him stupid, but not question his IQ.

R

I don't think he did. I took it as the IQ of those that voted for him are
very low. I'd sure as hell not vote for him and I have a fairly high IQ.

"Ed Pawlowski" wrote

RicodJour wrote:
On Jan 7, 4:43 pm, Swingman wrote:

I kept telling my youngest daughter that, on a daily basis, roughly
half the people she deals with are below average IQ ... but she
responded that I didn't factor in that many of them might be
concentrated in one area ... wherever it is that Al Franken lives.

Franken went to Harvard and graduated cum laude, so his IQ isn't in
question. If you disagree with his politics, ethics or whatever else,
that might allow you to call him stupid, but not question his IQ.

R

I don't think he did. I took it as the IQ of those that voted for him are
very low. I'd sure as hell not vote for him and I have a fairly high IQ.

Those brainy folks from Minnesota also voted in a former wrestler, Jesse
Ventura, as governor.

Rusty wrote:

Too bad you did not think to ask him about Global Warming. LOL
I love how the anti climate change conspiracists always come out in
winter ...it's not that hot right now!
Talking 1.5 to 3.5 degrees more at the poles than at the equator. The
ice flows are disappearing .
But then again maybe that puddle at the end of your driveway didn't
have ice on it like it did the same time last year.
Do your own research ..lol

Reduction of ice at the North Pole is good.

It may open up a year-round Northwest Passage. This, in turn, will
dramatically cut shipping costs between the Orient and Europe, facilitating
trade, creating jobs, increasing wealth, prosperity, and happiness for
everybody concerned.

In article , RicodJour wrote:
On Jan 7, 4:43=A0pm, Swingman wrote:

I kept telling my youngest daughter that, on a daily basis, roughly half
the people she deals with are below average IQ ... but she responded
that I didn't factor in that many of them might be concentrated in one
area ... wherever it is that Al Franken lives.

Franken went to Harvard and graduated cum laude, so his IQ isn't in
question. If you disagree with his politics, ethics or whatever else,
that might allow you to call him stupid, but not question his IQ.

He wasn't questioning *Franken's* intelligence, just the intelligence of the
people that voted for him.

Rusty wrote:

Frankin paid his taxes just to the wrong state, Bachmann tell the
poor to pull up there bootstraps then collects welfare for her farm
to almost 800,000, it's a republican Hippocratic oath thing.


No it's not, it's a people thing. Special interest knows no political
boundaries.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
....a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico

On Jan 8, 7:36*am, (Doug Miller) wrote:
In article , RicodJour wrote:

On Jan 7, 4:43=A0pm, Swingman wrote:

I kept telling my youngest daughter that, on a daily basis, roughly half
the people she deals with are below average IQ ... but she responded
that I didn't factor in that many of them might be concentrated in one
area ... wherever it is that Al Franken lives.

Franken went to Harvard and graduated cum laude, so his IQ isn't in
question. *If you disagree with his politics, ethics or whatever else,
that might allow you to call him stupid, but not question his IQ.

He wasn't questioning *Franken's* intelligence, just the intelligence of the
people that voted for him.

More appropriately demonstrated by the reelection on the lunatic
Bachmann. Franken, not so much.

On Jan 7, 11:26*pm, Swingman wrote:
On 1/7/2010 9:57 PM, Rusty wrote:

Frankin paid his taxes just to the wrong state, Bachmann tell the poor to
pull up there bootstraps then collects welfare for her farm to almost
800,000, it's a republican Hippocratic oath thing.Forget the coolaid chew
the teabag

IP Information - 70.67.34.24
Host name * * * S01060020ed678525.pi.shawcable.net
Country * * * * Canada Canada
Country Code * *CA
Region *British Columbia
City * *Port Alberni
Latitude * * * *49.2333
Longitude * * * -124.8

... and why would YOU give a ****, eh?

--www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

He's Canadian, so he cares.

If you aren't carefull enough to keep your fingers out of the sawbalde
you shouldn't be using one!

On Jan 7, 11:46*pm, Mark & Juanita wrote:

*Now, one would think that a champion of the little guy and
the middle class would have been scrupulously careful to make sure he was
abiding by workers' compensation requirements, wouldn't you?

Just like all republican businessmen look after their workforce(s)?

Glass houses, etc., Mark.

"Puckdropper" puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com wrote in message
...



You've also got to get a new blade, too. I'm curious if the SawStop
technology would be effective enough if it would fire and just drop the
blade totally in to the saw rather than jamming it in to a piece of
metal. I realize there's no possibility of a second stage, where if
contact is still being made it could then stop the blade.

I'd rather have my fingers.

Puckdropper

Think about that for a sec, if the blade simply fell below the surface and
continued to spin,,,, do you think a blade that is spinning against a finger
and moving down 1-3 inches would cut you? I think it would be imperative
that the blade stop spinning and perhaps not drop below the surface as an
alternative.

"burtwitlin" wrote in message
...
If you aren't carefull enough to keep your fingers out of the sawbalde
you shouldn't be using one!

Obviousely you have not been using a saw long enough to know that that is a
rather uninformed comment. Yeah 20 years experience says nothing for some
people. There are many many more way to be cut by the saw blade than when
you are cutting wood.

On 1/8/2010 8:02 AM, GarageWoodworks wrote:

More appropriately demonstrated by the reelection on the lunatic
Bachmann. Franken, not so much.

Irrelevant .... electorate are sheep for the shearing.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

In article , GarageWoodworks wrote:
On Jan 8, 7:36=A0am, (Doug Miller) wrote:
In article =
..com, RicodJour wrote:

On Jan 7, 4:43=3DA0pm, Swingman wrote:

I kept telling my youngest daughter that, on a daily basis, roughly ha=
lf
the people she deals with are below average IQ ... but she responded
that I didn't factor in that many of them might be concentrated in one
area ... wherever it is that Al Franken lives.

Franken went to Harvard and graduated cum laude, so his IQ isn't in
question. =A0If you disagree with his politics, ethics or whatever else,
that might allow you to call him stupid, but not question his IQ.

He wasn't questioning *Franken's* intelligence, just the intelligence of =
the
people that voted for him.

More appropriately demonstrated by the reelection on the lunatic
Bachmann. Franken, not so much.

Can't comment on that -- don't know anything about Ms. Bachmann. Hard to
imagine she's loonier than Franken, though...

On 1/7/2010 7:26 PM, Lew Hodgett wrote:
Subject

One of my favorites for demonstrating stupidity:

"Me and Charlie went to the movie."

Hint:
It's the structure not the content.

Lew

Me went to the movie. Ugh!

--
See Nad. See Nad go. Go Nad!
To reply, eat the taco.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboyee/

On 1/8/2010 10:08 AM, Steve Turner wrote:
On 1/7/2010 7:26 PM, Lew Hodgett wrote:
Subject

One of my favorites for demonstrating stupidity:

"Me and Charlie went to the movie."

Hint:
It's the structure not the content.

Lew

Me went to the movie. Ugh!

Or how about those people who think they're being "correct" by just replacing
all such occurrences of "me" with "I"?

"Would you join Charlie and I for a trip to the movie?"

--
See Nad. See Nad go. Go Nad!
To reply, eat the taco.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboyee/

On 1/8/2010 8:15 AM, Robatoy wrote:
On Jan 7, 11:26 pm, wrote:

... and why would YOU give a ****, eh?

He's Canadian, so he cares.

Some care, some don't, and, like your meddlesome and impertinent
neighbor down the street, it pays to identify.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

On Jan 8, 10:59*am, (Doug Miller) wrote:
In article , GarageWoodworks wrote:



On Jan 8, 7:36=A0am, (Doug Miller) wrote:
In article =
..com, RicodJour wrote:

On Jan 7, 4:43=3DA0pm, Swingman wrote:

I kept telling my youngest daughter that, on a daily basis, roughly ha=
lf
the people she deals with are below average IQ ... but she responded
that I didn't factor in that many of them might be concentrated in one
area ... wherever it is that Al Franken lives.

Franken went to Harvard and graduated cum laude, so his IQ isn't in
question. =A0If you disagree with his politics, ethics or whatever else,
that might allow you to call him stupid, but not question his IQ.

He wasn't questioning *Franken's* intelligence, just the intelligence of =
the
people that voted for him.

More appropriately demonstrated by the reelection on the lunatic
Bachmann. *Franken, not so much.

Can't comment on that -- don't know anything about Ms. Bachmann. Hard to
imagine she's loonier than Franken, though...

Just for startersneed more let me know)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8bT01mC9xSA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2I1ix_82rTw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OWV-ZWJCrY8