On Fri, 18 Sep 2009 16:08:03 -0700, Prof Wonmug wrote:

On Thu, 17 Sep 2009 23:30:50 -0700, "Lew Hodgett"
wrote:


"Prof Wonmug" wrote:

Is that 1 oart alcohol to 19 parts epoxy? In other words, just a
small
amount of alcohol?

Just a smell.

I just eyeball it, it's not critical, anything from 4%-6%.

I put two ribbons of epoxy in a dish, mixed a bit, and added a splash
of denatured alcohol. As far as I could tell, this did not affect the
epoxy mixture at all. It was just as thick as before.

I applied one coat to the two pieces. as far as I could tell, it did
not penetrate at all. It certainly did not disappear.

Now, I am reluctant to apply 2-3 coats of fear of getting too much
build-up and losing the nice fit from the clean (ragged) break.

I think I'll just apply it full strength and clamp.

Epoxy putty is different from epoxy resin.Epoxy resin CAN be thinned
with alcohol or acetone but the ultimate strength can be compromised.
Don't think you can thin epoxy putty very easily, but I could be
wrong.

Lew Hodgett wrote:
"Steve Turner" wrote:

I wasn't going to say anything because Lew appears to know more
about epoxy than most other humans, but I didn't think the alcohol
thing was going to work. System Three T-88 appears to be a bit of a
different animal relative to most other epoxies. The "clean up with
white vinegar" thing puzzled me right away; nothing short of lacquer
thinner or acetone would touch most of the other brands I've used.

Have no direct experience with T-88; however, have used several
thousand pounds of S-3 laminating resin.

From the sounds of it, appears T-88 is loaded with some type of
filler(s) which would mean getting the alcohol absorbed into the mix
may require a lot of elbow grease.

I wouldn't expect any solvent that was meant to thin any given resin to
require *any* elbow grease, filler or no; I would expect it to melt
right in. I figure if it ain't gonna dissolve the resin then you
shouldn't use it, and it wouldn't surprise me if the mixture wound up
coagulating.

As far as clean up is concerned, nothing short of stripping down and
taking as cold a shower as you can tolerate has ever worked for me.

Solvents such as lacquer thinner, acetone, white vinegar, etc, never
worked very well for me.

A scrub brush with Boraxo and cold water gets off the heavy stuff
until you hit the shower.

Lew

Well I wasn't so much talking about getting it off *me* as I was getting
it off everything else, but apart from the T-88, every other brand I've
used in the past (and the few I have lying around here right now)
mention lacquer thinner and/or acetone for cleanup and it's always
worked for me. Even from my skin(!), but I don't like to make a habit
of that. I suspect those solvents might be worse for your skin than the
epoxy itself, although acetone has been a common ingredient in finger
nail polish remover for eons.

--
"Our beer goes through thousands of quality Czechs every day."
(From a Shiner Bock billboard I saw in Austin some years ago)
To reply, eat the taco.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboyee/

wrote:

Epoxy putty is different from epoxy resin.Epoxy resin CAN be thinned
with alcohol or acetone but the ultimate strength can be
compromised.
Don't think you can thin epoxy putty very easily, but I could be
wrong.

T-88 is listed as a structural adhesive on the SO-3 web site which as
you say makes it a different animal from laminating resin.

I've always used laminating resin as a "glue" or thickened with
micro-balloons as an "adhesive" with success, but then again,
different horses for different courses.

Lew
..

"Steve Turner" wrote:

Well I wasn't so much talking about getting it off *me* as I was
getting it off everything else, but apart from the T-88, every other
brand I've used in the past (and the few I have lying around here
right now) mention lacquer thinner and/or acetone for cleanup and
it's always worked for me. Even from my skin(!), but I don't like
to make a habit of that. I suspect those solvents might be worse
for your skin than the epoxy itself, although acetone has been a
common ingredient in finger nail polish remover for eons.

SFWIW, today most nail polish removers are NOT acetone based.

As far as getting any of the ketone solvents on your skin, it is
strongly suggested you don't, but as you say, small quantities
probably don't hurt.

As far as uncured epoxy is concerned, you build up a sensitivity to
the stuff over time, then you wake up one day with a skin rash and you
are done working with epoxy.

A $5 box of latex surgical gloves from Harbor Freight solves a lot of
problems when working with epoxy.

Lew

Lew Hodgett wrote:
"Steve Turner" wrote:

Well I wasn't so much talking about getting it off *me* as I was
getting it off everything else, but apart from the T-88, every other
brand I've used in the past (and the few I have lying around here
right now) mention lacquer thinner and/or acetone for cleanup and
it's always worked for me. Even from my skin(!), but I don't like
to make a habit of that. I suspect those solvents might be worse
for your skin than the epoxy itself, although acetone has been a
common ingredient in finger nail polish remover for eons.

SFWIW, today most nail polish removers are NOT acetone based.

Perhaps, but I live in a house with a wife and four daughters. There
are like 17 bottles of the crap around here (two of them brand new) and
they all have acetone as the primary ingredient.

--
See Nad. See Nad go. Go Nad!
To reply, eat the taco.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboyee/

"Steve Turner" wrote

Perhaps, but I live in a house with a wife and four daughters. There are
like 17 bottles of the crap around here (two of them brand new) and they
all have acetone as the primary ingredient.

LOL Do you need to take an anti estrogen? LOL

Lee Michaels wrote:
"Steve Turner" wrote
Perhaps, but I live in a house with a wife and four daughters. There are
like 17 bottles of the crap around here (two of them brand new) and they
all have acetone as the primary ingredient.

LOL Do you need to take an anti estrogen? LOL

You got that right - it's called run out to the shop and hide! :-)

--
"Our beer goes through thousands of quality Czechs every day."
(From a Shiner Bock billboard I saw in Austin some years ago)
To reply, eat the taco.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboyee/

On Thu, 17 Sep 2009 23:17:42 -0700 (PDT), "SonomaProducts.com"
wrote:

I get a bit on me now and then but do usually wear gloves. The
instructions are pretty clear they don't want you getting it on your
skin so I assume it has some level of toxicity. If you have some
gloves available, I would use them.

I usually mix up some in a dixie cup or bowl. I let it thicken for 10
minutes or so then slather it on pretty thick. I usually use a trimmed
flux brush but I am doing little areas. I don't think you can go wrong
with this stuff. Doing a pre-glue or "sizing" as some suggest is
probably a great idea if you are gluing any end grain, good for yellow
glue also, but I wouldn't think it is necessary on face gluing no
matter how dry. This stuff is thick.

Well, the job is done. Overall, I think I did about an average job.

There was one small end-grain joint. The pre-gluing was probably a
good idea there. It soaked up the glue very quickly. Unfortunately,
there was no way to clamp that joint, so I just tapped it with a
hammer to get the old screw to seat and placed a couple of bricks to
hold it down. Apparently, when I clamped the other end, I must have
torqued the whole chair. Today, I discovered that it had dried with a
gap of about .3". Even so, it's solid. I guess with the pre-gluing,
there was enough there to span that gao in several places and this is
a structural epoxy.

The other end where is split lengthwise is very solid. It's a bit
discolored where I tried to wipe off the excess. I think the
pre-gluing resulting is there being too much glue in the joint. I only
clamped to touch, but quite a bit squirted out.

Anyway, thanks for the help. I think that is not the strongest part of
the chair.

As I was working on the break, I noticed that the whole chair is
wobbly. It was put together with screws and plugs, but no glue. Now
the wood has dried out and pulled away from the screws. What would you
say to me injecting some epoxy into the loose joints?

One big plus -- no epoxy on me or my clothes. That's a first.

I do have one more question.

While I was repairing the broken arm, I noticed that almost every
joint is loose. I am wondering if there is any PM I can do sush as
trying to inject some epoxy into some of the loose joints to reinforce
them.

The problem is that while they are loose, there is not much space. I'm
thinking that about as likely to make it harder to repair when it does
eventually give way.

I think my best bet it to leave it alone and deal with any breakage as
it happens.

Comments?

On Mon, 21 Sep 2009 17:46:53 -0700, "Lew Hodgett"
wrote:


"Prof Wonmug" wrote:

I do have one more question.

While I was repairing the broken arm, I noticed that almost every
joint is loose. I am wondering if there is any PM I can do sush as
trying to inject some epoxy into some of the loose joints to
reinforce
them.

The problem is that while they are loose, there is not much space.
I'm
thinking that about as likely to make it harder to repair when it
does
eventually give way.

I think my best bet it to leave it alone and deal with any breakage
as
it happens.

You indicated that this chair is held together with fasteners.

One approach would be to get #10-#12 coarse threaded pan head
stainless steel self tapping sheet metal screws and replace old
fasteners one for one.

Self tapping sheet metal screws do well in soft woods like redwood.

It is held together with standard wood screws, countersunk, and
plugged. I would have to drill out the plugs, remove the screws (that
part would be easy, I imagine), reattach with the new screws, and then
make new plugs. That sounds like a lot of work.

Prof Wonmug" wrote:

It is held together with standard wood screws, countersunk, and
plugged. I would have to drill out the plugs, remove the screws
(that
part would be easy, I imagine), reattach with the new screws, and
then
make new plugs. That sounds like a lot of work.

Depends on how much the chair means to you/yours.

Lew

On Mon, 21 Sep 2009 17:22:15 -0700, Prof Wonmug wrote:

I do have one more question.

While I was repairing the broken arm, I noticed that almost every
joint is loose. I am wondering if there is any PM I can do sush as
trying to inject some epoxy into some of the loose joints to reinforce
them.

The problem is that while they are loose, there is not much space. I'm
thinking that about as likely to make it harder to repair when it does
eventually give way.

I think my best bet it to leave it alone and deal with any breakage as
it happens.

Comments?
Dissassemble completey and use as pattern to make new parts over the
winter. If there is a real "attachment" to the old one you could
repair the holes while it is apart and re-assemble it along with the
new one (or 2, or 3, or)

wrote:
On Mon, 21 Sep 2009 17:22:15 -0700, Prof Wonmug wrote:

I do have one more question.

While I was repairing the broken arm, I noticed that almost every
joint is loose. I am wondering if there is any PM I can do sush as
trying to inject some epoxy into some of the loose joints to reinforce
them.

The problem is that while they are loose, there is not much space. I'm
thinking that about as likely to make it harder to repair when it does
eventually give way.

I think my best bet it to leave it alone and deal with any breakage as
it happens.

Comments?
Dissassemble completey and use as pattern to make new parts over the
winter. If there is a real "attachment" to the old one you could
repair the holes while it is apart and re-assemble it along with the
new one (or 2, or 3, or)

I've done that many times; practically every chair repair I've ever done
I've resorted to complete (or near complete) disassembly. It's like a
slippery slope with me; I can't stand loose joints in a chair. I'd much
rather take it all apart and do it right than attempt some kind of glue
injection approach, and having it all apart makes it easy to make
patterns for fresh new builds.

--
If it ain't perfect, improve it...
But don't break it while you're fixin' it!
To reply, eat the taco.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboyee/

"Steve Turner" wrote:

I've done that many times; practically every chair repair I've ever
done I've resorted to complete (or near complete) disassembly. It's
like a slippery slope with me; I can't stand loose joints in a
chair. I'd much rather take it all apart and do it right than
attempt some kind of glue injection approach, and having it all
apart makes it easy to make patterns for fresh new builds.

I have a question.

Unless you really have a love affair with the chair, wouldn't you be
farther ahead if:

A) You purchased new chairs?

B) Built news chairs using a plan with a better design or at least
better suited to your usage?

Just curious.

Lew

On Mon, 21 Sep 2009 21:43:56 -0700, "Lew Hodgett"
wrote:


"Steve Turner" wrote:

I've done that many times; practically every chair repair I've ever
done I've resorted to complete (or near complete) disassembly. It's
like a slippery slope with me; I can't stand loose joints in a
chair. I'd much rather take it all apart and do it right than
attempt some kind of glue injection approach, and having it all
apart makes it easy to make patterns for fresh new builds.

I have a question.

Unless you really have a love affair with the chair, wouldn't you be
farther ahead if:

A) You purchased new chairs?

I offered to buy her a new chair. She wants that one because her son
made it for her.

B) Built news chairs using a plan with a better design or at least
better suited to your usage?

See answer to (a).

Just curious.

Lew

I'm looking for the easiest way to prolong the life a little.

If I get some spare time (unlikely), I might just take it all apart
and reassemble it.

What's the best way to open joints that are loose but not falling
apart? Just wait until they do fall apart?

Lew Hodgett wrote:
"Steve Turner" wrote:

I've done that many times; practically every chair repair I've ever
done I've resorted to complete (or near complete) disassembly. It's
like a slippery slope with me; I can't stand loose joints in a
chair. I'd much rather take it all apart and do it right than
attempt some kind of glue injection approach, and having it all
apart makes it easy to make patterns for fresh new builds.

I have a question.

Unless you really have a love affair with the chair, wouldn't you be
farther ahead if:

A) You purchased new chairs?

Not at the mass-produced quality level typically seen these days.

B) Built news chairs using a plan with a better design or at least
better suited to your usage?

Just curious.

These have all been antique chairs with fairly decent design, but with
the old hide-glue joints that just can't stand up to the rigors of time.
It's amazing how many friends and relatives can come out of the
woodwork when they've heard you have the ability to fix old furniture.
I've probably rebuilt a dozen or more old chairs that used to belong to
Aunt Edith or next door neighbor Bart's grandpappy.

--
"Our beer goes through thousands of quality Czechs every day."
(From a Shiner Bock billboard I saw in Austin some years ago)
To reply, eat the taco.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboyee/

"Steve Turner" wrote in message
It's amazing how many friends and relatives can come out of the
woodwork when they've heard you have the ability to fix old furniture.
I've probably rebuilt a dozen or more old chairs that used to belong to
Aunt Edith or next door neighbor Bart's grandpappy.

Yeah, but the news spreads when there's a local woodworker that can fix
chairs (and fix them properly). That takes a particularly uncommon skill or
at least most people think so.

On Tue, 22 Sep 2009 08:01:54 -0400, "Upscale"
wrote:


"Steve Turner" wrote in message
It's amazing how many friends and relatives can come out of the
woodwork when they've heard you have the ability to fix old furniture.
I've probably rebuilt a dozen or more old chairs that used to belong to
Aunt Edith or next door neighbor Bart's grandpappy.

Yeah, but the news spreads when there's a local woodworker that can fix
chairs (and fix them properly). That takes a particularly uncommon skill or
at least most people think so.

You should see what the old guy across the road can do with a trashed
chair!!! He's redone qite a few for friends and neighbours that are
now better than new - with all kinds af parts replaced, repaired, and
remanufactured. It's a real art!!!

wrote:
On Tue, 22 Sep 2009 08:01:54 -0400, "Upscale"
wrote:

"Steve Turner" wrote in message
It's amazing how many friends and relatives can come out of the
woodwork when they've heard you have the ability to fix old furniture.
I've probably rebuilt a dozen or more old chairs that used to belong to
Aunt Edith or next door neighbor Bart's grandpappy.
Yeah, but the news spreads when there's a local woodworker that can fix
chairs (and fix them properly). That takes a particularly uncommon skill or
at least most people think so.

You should see what the old guy across the road can do with a trashed
chair!!! He's redone qite a few for friends and neighbours that are
now better than new - with all kinds af parts replaced, repaired, and
remanufactured. It's a real art!!!

Here's some info on the chair I just finished:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboyee/3945385446/

At the risk of ****ing off the Antiques Road Show gods, I decided to
forgo any attempts to retain the original black "japanning" on all the
steel and cast iron parts in the seat support mechanism (this thing has
dual tilt springs with cast iron receivers, and a height adjustment
mechanism with a 1-1/8" lead-screw!). I ran all the metal parts through
the sandblast cabinet, then applied a black oxide finish (similar to gun
metal bluing) available from Caswell Plating
(http://www.caswellplating.com/kits/index.html).

Apart from the regular disassembly and re-gluing of all the old
hide-glue joints, I had to "rebuild" the dovetails on the ends of the
legs, re-cutting the shoulders to add a bit of depth and gluing shim
stock to the faces to add thickness, all so the legs would once again
fit tightly into the cast iron receiver. I also had to reinstall new
seat caning, which I'd never done before, and I highly recommend this
site: http://www.seatweaving.org/ for supplies and instructions if you
ever have to do the same.

A fun project all in all, and my friend was quite happy to get his
favorite old chair back. I understand I now have an endless supply of
free beer any time I want to go over and shoot the breeze! :-)

--
"Even if your wife is happy but you're unhappy, you're still happier
than you'd be if you were happy and your wife was unhappy." - Red Green
To reply, eat the taco.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboyee/