(WARNING - THIS IS A LONG AND BORING STORY ABOUT **** UPS IN THE
MANUFACTURING WORLD - YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED)


A current thread on the use of teflon tape for air fittings brought up
a nightmare from my past.

Several years ago, when working as a senior project manager for a
store fixture manufacturer, I was tasked by my boss with solving a
problem that we were having with rolling fixtures.

A rolling fixture is something that is used in the retail world that
has casters on its feet, so that it can be easily moved from one
location to another on the store floor.

A caster typically has a wheel, a housing of bent gage metal that
holds the axle for the wheel, and the attachment bolt, and the
attachment bolt itself, which screws into the bottom of the tube steel
of the fixture via what is called a 'weld nut'.

The initial problem that we were having was that the welds were
breaking on the weld nut.

In the States a weld nut is usually a piece of gage metal bent into a
U shape whose legs contact the interior sides of the square tubing,
which are then welded to the steel tubing. A hole is previously
punched in the bottom of the device and a nut, sized to fit the
thread of the caster bolt, is welded to the interior face of the
device, over the hole. This has good welding properties and is very
strong.

What the offshore guys who won the contract were doing was taking a
hex nut that more or less fit into the tube steel end, and they were
attempting to tack weld it at the points of "intersection" between the
hex nut and the and the interior faces of the tube steel.

When you think about it, there are a finite number of possibilities
for points of contact between a hex nut of a size appropriate for a
tap in fit to a square tube.

These guys weren't even doing that good.

The hex nut was a loose fit into the tube and, to this day, I am not
entirely sure how they positioned the nut so that it could be tacked
to the tube. I guess, if I had to do it, I'd use a magnet to pin it
and do a sloppy weld on the loose side.

Our PM, had gotten first article on all the pieces, assembled the unit
and gave everything a pass.

Of course, this only proved that the fixture could be assembled and
could carry its own weight.

When the fixtures were sent out into the field, we began to get
failure calls. When the fixtures were loaded with merchandise (and
these people were clothing retailers - not really loading the lbs on
the units) and store personnel tried to move them - they were getting
failures at the tack welds of the hex bolts.

Go figure.

So, the PM gets on the horn to China and the finger pointing begins.

The Chinese guys say that they had no definition of the weld bolt and
that there was no detail to describe to them how to manufacture it, so
they invented it.

Re-read that last sentence.

The PM gets ****ed off and takes a picture of a typical weld bolt,
showing the legs being bent and the good steel to steel contact
potential for a good weld - and he fires it off to the Chinese guys.

It was a great picture of the bottom face of the weld nut.

Re-read that last sentence, too - it becomes important.

The Chinese guys agree that the welded hex nut idea was poorly
conceived and executed. They agree to compensate us for onshore
remediation of the problem for the units shipped and they agree to use
weld nuts that look like the picture that the PM sent to them on
future shipments.

There is not enough time to get first article on the modification
because we are shipping stores and are already behind because of the
work that needed to be done on the fubar'd first shipment.

The PM unpacks the goods and assembles the units. He sees that the
offshore guys have used the bent gage metal configuration described in
the photo. He marks them for shipment and all is good.

Then we started getting the failure calls.

The good news is that we no longer have a weld failure.

The bad news is that now the threads are stripping out on the caster
bolt threads. The caster bolts are ripping out of the weld nuts and
bottoming out - leaving the fixtures movable only with great
difficulty when loaded - in the best case. Leaving the casters fall
out of the weld nuts entirely - in the typical case.

Did I mention that we were doing 8 million dollars worth of business a
year with this customer?

So, my boss (the owner of the company) pulls me off what I was doing
and told me to get to the bottom of this.

Let me say that the PM in question was not, fortunately, one of my
PM's.

I believe that my boss's exact words were, "Fix this ****ing thing,
Tommy. And make sure we don't come out on the **** end."

So, with these words of encouragement ringing in my ears, I proceeded
to perform a destructive test on the offending joint.

Sawing off the tube steel just above the weld nut showed that the
Chinese guys had followed the photo to the letter. The photo that
they had showed the weld nut from the bottom and they had perfectly
bent the gage metal to conform to the inner faces of the tube. They
had performed a more or less perfect weld.

What they did not include was the hex nut that was to have been welded
to the side that was hidden in the photo.

The weld nut consisted of nothing more than a piece of 16 gage metal,
formed into a U, that was threaded to receive the caster bolt. It
provided about one and one half threads of engagement.

This is when my boss fired the PM and put me on this problem full
time, with the guiding words, "Tommy, don't **** this up and make us
look bad."

I pulled the drawings from the RFQ book and all that they showed for
the bolted connection was no more than something like, "3/8" x 3" - 16
TPI bolt to appropriate weld nut." No detail on the connection. I
figured we were hosed. Our guy had sent them a picture of the
obverse, without including the reverse and we had not sufficiently
described our intent on the drawing.

The one and one-half of thread engagement was niggling in my mind and
I thought that I might have an appeal to standards that might be in
place for thread engagement.

That is when I bought Machinery's Handbook.

For those of you who are not familiar with this volume - it is not a
coffee table book.

What I was able to find there was a reference to international
standards that described no less than three full threads of engagement
for a minimal resistance to lateral force. It seemed that I had one
card in my pocket.

What I also found was a description of slop tolerances that are
standard for bolted connections.

On a straight up bolt with what are called parallel threads ( the
usual bolt that you and I deal with) there are three degrees of fit
tolerance. These are 1A/1B, 2A/2B and 3A/3B. What these arcane terms
mean is that there is a certain amount of slop allowed in a male
thread to female thread connection and that these designations
describe a decreasing tolerance for slop from 1A/!B to 3A/3B.

I figured that I was on to something.

It turned out to be the case that there are internationally accepted
standards that require a manufacturer to assume tolerance 2A/2B in the
absence of further direction from the drawings.

Our supplier had submitted a lower tolerance.

I turned my findings over to my boss and he used the two talking
points in his discussions with the supplier.

We were looking at involving this guy in another 14 million dollars
worth of metal business.

The guys caved and agreed to compensate us for onshore modification
and they agreed to go forward with the next phase of production - with
the caveat that they got detailed drawings on the bolted connection,
and that better details were provided in the future.

They proposed to only hold ten thousand dollars as a compensation for
their efforts on our behalf to resolve this matter.

Seemed like a cheap price, considering the gross amount in play.

That is when the light went on.

About a year previous to this we had switched our CAD work from
AutoCAD to another AutoDesk environment called "Inventor".

Inventor is a 3D program where you draw every little individual
element and then assemble all of them into the final drawing.

Every screw, nut, bolt, etc. must be drawn in order for the program to
create an assembly drawing - and the assembly drawings are used to
create what are called the "plate drawings", which show each part and
which are included in the RFQ book.

One of the benefits of using this program is that you draw once and
use the element many times, copy and paste it into other drawings.

We insisted that our suppliers used a current version of the program,
so that we could provide plate drawings that were essentially design
drawings, and so that the supplier could open up the file and see the
details that might not have been included in the plates.

When I opened up the design file on the computer I found a perfectly
executed description of the bolted connection, including all of the
measurements for the weld nut and its use in the connection. It
showed the 16 gage U bend and the hex nut welded behind.

We got our ten grand back.

What should have happened?

We should have had better details on our plate drawings.

Who was wrong?

Everyone. The supplier should have used the ability of the program to
find the details and our company should have had a man in place to
know when the details were not being followed. We should also have
remembered the capabilities of the very expensive drawing program that
we had bought, far earlier.

What was the result?

As far as I know, my former company still does business with the
supplier and he, in fact, the last that I knew, provided about seventy
percent of the metal for a company that used seventy five percent
metal in a fifty million dollar a year business.



Anyway - this is how I came to own a copy of Machinery's Handbook and
know what I know about threaded tolerances.

Sorry if I bored you.
























Regards,

Tom Watson
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/

"Tom Watson" wrote:


Anyway - this is how I came to own a copy of Machinery's Handbook
and
know what I know about threaded tolerances.

What edition?

Mine is the 15th, purchased in 1955, and I still use it infrequently.

Lew

Lew

On Sun, 12 Jul 2009 02:23:17 GMT, "Lew Hodgett"
wrote:


"Tom Watson" wrote:


Anyway - this is how I came to own a copy of Machinery's Handbook
and
know what I know about threaded tolerances.

What edition?

Mine is the 15th, purchased in 1955, and I still use it infrequently.

Lew

Lew



27th.




Regards,

Tom Watson
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/

In article , Tom Watson wrote:
(WARNING - THIS IS A LONG AND BORING STORY ABOUT **** UPS IN THE
MANUFACTURING WORLD - YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED)
[...]

Anyway - this is how I came to own a copy of Machinery's Handbook and
know what I know about threaded tolerances.

Sorry if I bored you.

Boring? Not at all. It's an instructive case study in the consequences of
failing to examine assumptions. Thanks for posting.

On Sun, 12 Jul 2009 02:37:48 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article , Tom Watson wrote:
(WARNING - THIS IS A LONG AND BORING STORY ABOUT **** UPS IN THE
MANUFACTURING WORLD - YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED)
[...]

Anyway - this is how I came to own a copy of Machinery's Handbook and
know what I know about threaded tolerances.

Sorry if I bored you.

Boring? Not at all. It's an instructive case study in the consequences of
failing to examine assumptions. Thanks for posting.


Thanks, Doug. I'm glad that you got it.

This kind of thing goes on all the time in that world, and I am sure,
in many others.

We had technology in place to address the potential problem but so few
people had been trained on it, including me, that we did not know how
to use it properly.

It was only through a conversation with an "engineer" (draftsman) that
I learned of how an Inventor drawing is made.

A few weeks later it was required that all PM's and Senior PM's go
through the training that our design staff had gone through.




Regards,

Tom Watson
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/

On 7/11/2009 6:11 PM Tom Watson spake thus:

(WARNING - THIS IS A LONG AND BORING STORY ABOUT **** UPS IN THE
MANUFACTURING WORLD - YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED)

[snip story]

Sorry if I bored you.

Not at all. Very instructive post. Thanks.


--
Found--the gene that causes belief in genetic determinism

I wrote:

What edition?

Mine is the 15th, purchased in 1955, and I still use it infrequently.

"Tom Watson" wrote:

27th.

The Typo Police write:

It is the 14th edition, not the 15th edition, dummy.

Lew

In article , Tom Watson wrote:
On Sun, 12 Jul 2009 02:37:48 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article , Tom Watson
wrote:
(WARNING - THIS IS A LONG AND BORING STORY ABOUT **** UPS IN THE
MANUFACTURING WORLD - YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED)
[...]

Anyway - this is how I came to own a copy of Machinery's Handbook and
know what I know about threaded tolerances.

Sorry if I bored you.

Boring? Not at all. It's an instructive case study in the consequences of
failing to examine assumptions. Thanks for posting.


Thanks, Doug. I'm glad that you got it.

This kind of thing goes on all the time in that world, and I am sure,
in many others.

We had technology in place to address the potential problem but so few
people had been trained on it, including me, that we did not know how
to use it properly.

One of the hardest things to remember, I think, is that many cases of apparent
incompetence are simply the result of deficient training. Most people, in my
experience, truly want to do a good job, and are frustrated when the employer
won't take the time and funds necessary to provide the training they need.

It was only through a conversation with an "engineer" (draftsman) that
I learned of how an Inventor drawing is made.

A few weeks later it was required that all PM's and Senior PM's go
through the training that our design staff had gone through.

Should have been that way from the beginning, of course.

On Sat, 11 Jul 2009 21:11:54 -0400, Tom Watson
wrote:

(WARNING - THIS IS A LONG AND BORING STORY ABOUT **** UPS IN THE
MANUFACTURING WORLD - YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED)



Beautiful story and nicely written. The cause and effect was
strikingly simular to issues I had to investigate to find out why
things are the way they are. Unfortunalely, in goverment no one
wanted to take the hit or listen to a long litany towards a solution
(engineers in particular AKA 50%ers), but were more that willing to
steal the accolades of a fix that some else did.

This story could have begun as "For want of a horseshoe nail".

P

wrote in message ...
On Sat, 11 Jul 2009 21:11:54 -0400, Tom Watson
wrote:

(WARNING - THIS IS A LONG AND BORING STORY ABOUT **** UPS IN THE
MANUFACTURING WORLD - YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED)



Beautiful story and nicely written. The cause and effect was
strikingly simular to issues I had to investigate to find out why
things are the way they are. Unfortunalely, in goverment no one
wanted to take the hit or listen to a long litany towards a solution
(engineers in particular AKA 50%ers), but were more that willing to
steal the accolades of a fix that some else did.

This story could have begun as "For want of a horseshoe nail".

I don't want to be too harsh, but when you asked for a welded nut, you got a
welded nut. You later asked for sheet metal, and they gave you welded sheet
metal. It then turns out you want a weld nut, and no doubt didn't bother to
specify the weld, but you were satisfied with the result. All through that,
the supplier didn't bother to **** in your teacup, but quietly complied at
his own expense. What more would you like? Which is the idiot? And which
acted in good faith?

MikeWhy wrote:

I don't want to be too harsh, but when you asked for a welded nut,
you got a welded nut. You later asked for sheet metal, and they gave you
welded sheet metal. It then turns out you want a weld nut, and no doubt
didn't bother to specify the weld, but you were satisfied with the
result. All through that, the supplier didn't bother to **** in your
teacup, but quietly complied at his own expense. What more would you
like? Which is the idiot? And which acted in good faith?

In my world, if it's in the plans a subcontractor doesn't have a leg to
stand on if his work does not comply precisely with the plans.

That's why change orders are double and a half whammy to the contractor
when the shoe is on the other foot ... he pays materials and labor the
first time, labor to tear out the error, then materials and labor again
to get it right.

IOW, "that's why good drawings are so important".

(I chant that to clients so often that I feel it must surely be written
on my forehead by now.)


--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

I have 16, 26, and 25 pdf - and not 27 anything.

Oh well.

Tom Watson wrote:
On Sun, 12 Jul 2009 02:23:17 GMT, "Lew Hodgett"
wrote:

"Tom Watson" wrote:

Anyway - this is how I came to own a copy of Machinery's Handbook
and
know what I know about threaded tolerances.
What edition?

Mine is the 15th, purchased in 1955, and I still use it infrequently.

Lew

Lew



27th.




Regards,

Tom Watson
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/

On Jul 12, 7:38*pm, "Upscale" wrote:


Now, if we could only convince LV to enter the power tools for woodworking
arena. *

I think Festool has that covered.

"MikeWhy" wrote in message
the supplier didn't bother to **** in your teacup, but quietly complied at
his own expense. What more would you like? Which is the idiot? And which
acted in good faith?

Maybe. But the best level of customer service is one that asks what you
might be using something for and offers possible alternatives if they feel
there's a better solution. There's too many screw-up's that are the result
of 'I was only following orders'. Unfortunately, that level of customer
service is labour intensive and eats into profits and most often is not the
result of shipping that labour offshore.

Just my own opinion, but Lee Valley Tools is one of those companies that
does go the extra distance and beyond. Too bad the trend in the last 30
years for the vast majority of companies has been to go the profit route at
the expense of the quality route.

Now, if we could only convince LV to enter the power tools for woodworking
arena.

"Robatoy" wrote in message
Now, if we could only convince LV to enter the power tools for
woodworking
arena.

I think Festool has that covered.

Yeah, but we would/might benefit from the competition. The minimal existence
of quality competition to Festool gives them little incentive to lower
prices.

At the very least, on-shore manufacturing could mean lower prices. I'm tired
of having to pay exorbitant brokerage (legal theft) handling charges
whenever I have to get something shipped into Canada that we don't have
here.

"Swingman" wrote in message
...
MikeWhy wrote:

I don't want to be too harsh, but when you asked for a welded nut,
you got a welded nut. You later asked for sheet metal, and they gave you
welded sheet metal. It then turns out you want a weld nut, and no doubt
didn't bother to specify the weld, but you were satisfied with the result.
All through that, the supplier didn't bother to **** in your teacup, but
quietly complied at his own expense. What more would you like? Which is
the idiot? And which acted in good faith?

In my world, if it's in the plans a subcontractor doesn't have a leg to
stand on if his work does not comply precisely with the plans.

That's why change orders are double and a half whammy to the contractor
when the shoe is on the other foot ... he pays materials and labor the
first time, labor to tear out the error, then materials and labor again to
get it right.

IOW, "that's why good drawings are so important".

(I chant that to clients so often that I feel it must surely be written on
my forehead by now.)

I must have missed the apologetic tone and the vow to do better next time.
It read like a rant about careless vendors and the triumph of succesful
non-documentation.

On Sun, 12 Jul 2009 16:13:49 -0500, "MikeWhy"
wrote:

wrote in message ...
On Sat, 11 Jul 2009 21:11:54 -0400, Tom Watson
wrote:

(WARNING - THIS IS A LONG AND BORING STORY ABOUT **** UPS IN THE
MANUFACTURING WORLD - YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED)



Beautiful story and nicely written. The cause and effect was
strikingly simular to issues I had to investigate to find out why
things are the way they are. Unfortunalely, in goverment no one
wanted to take the hit or listen to a long litany towards a solution
(engineers in particular AKA 50%ers), but were more that willing to
steal the accolades of a fix that some else did.

This story could have begun as "For want of a horseshoe nail".

I don't want to be too harsh, but when you asked for a welded nut, you got a
welded nut. You later asked for sheet metal, and they gave you welded sheet
metal. It then turns out you want a weld nut, and no doubt didn't bother to
specify the weld, but you were satisfied with the result. All through that,
the supplier didn't bother to **** in your teacup, but quietly complied at
his own expense. What more would you like? Which is the idiot? And which
acted in good faith?



I don't want to be too harsh either, Bubba, but - is English your
first language?


Regards,

Tom Watson
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/

I used to write specifications for printed forms and literature detailing
inks, papers, binding and quality levels that we would accept.

Having these detailed specifications saved our bacon many times when a
sub-trade printer ignored the specs or made substitutions that were not
approved, thinking we wouldn't notice the change. We would insist on the job
being rerun quickly to meet our due date.

Some of the forms had to fit specific equipment and the trimmed size and
position of the image was critical. One well known major North American
forms printer got blackballed for making adjustments to the form to fit
THEIR standard formats making the forms useless in our equipment. They also
delivered late leaving us up the creek without vital useable forms. We said
enough, they cannot follow specifications and there are other companies that
will do them right, so no more work from us.


Tom Watson wrote:
(WARNING - THIS IS A LONG AND BORING STORY ABOUT **** UPS IN THE
MANUFACTURING WORLD - YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED)


A current thread on the use of teflon tape for air fittings brought up
a nightmare from my past.

Several years ago, when working as a senior project manager for a
store fixture manufacturer, I was tasked by my boss with solving a
problem that we were having with rolling fixtures.

A rolling fixture is something that is used in the retail world that
has casters on its feet, so that it can be easily moved from one
location to another on the store floor.

A caster typically has a wheel, a housing of bent gage metal that
holds the axle for the wheel, and the attachment bolt, and the
attachment bolt itself, which screws into the bottom of the tube steel
of the fixture via what is called a 'weld nut'.

The initial problem that we were having was that the welds were
breaking on the weld nut.

In the States a weld nut is usually a piece of gage metal bent into a
U shape whose legs contact the interior sides of the square tubing,
which are then welded to the steel tubing. A hole is previously
punched in the bottom of the device and a nut, sized to fit the
thread of the caster bolt, is welded to the interior face of the
device, over the hole. This has good welding properties and is very
strong.

What the offshore guys who won the contract were doing was taking a
hex nut that more or less fit into the tube steel end, and they were
attempting to tack weld it at the points of "intersection" between the
hex nut and the and the interior faces of the tube steel.

When you think about it, there are a finite number of possibilities
for points of contact between a hex nut of a size appropriate for a
tap in fit to a square tube.

These guys weren't even doing that good.

The hex nut was a loose fit into the tube and, to this day, I am not
entirely sure how they positioned the nut so that it could be tacked
to the tube. I guess, if I had to do it, I'd use a magnet to pin it
and do a sloppy weld on the loose side.

Our PM, had gotten first article on all the pieces, assembled the unit
and gave everything a pass.

Of course, this only proved that the fixture could be assembled and
could carry its own weight.

When the fixtures were sent out into the field, we began to get
failure calls. When the fixtures were loaded with merchandise (and
these people were clothing retailers - not really loading the lbs on
the units) and store personnel tried to move them - they were getting
failures at the tack welds of the hex bolts.

Go figure.

So, the PM gets on the horn to China and the finger pointing begins.

The Chinese guys say that they had no definition of the weld bolt and
that there was no detail to describe to them how to manufacture it, so
they invented it.

Re-read that last sentence.

The PM gets ****ed off and takes a picture of a typical weld bolt,
showing the legs being bent and the good steel to steel contact
potential for a good weld - and he fires it off to the Chinese guys.

It was a great picture of the bottom face of the weld nut.

Re-read that last sentence, too - it becomes important.

The Chinese guys agree that the welded hex nut idea was poorly
conceived and executed. They agree to compensate us for onshore
remediation of the problem for the units shipped and they agree to use
weld nuts that look like the picture that the PM sent to them on
future shipments.

There is not enough time to get first article on the modification
because we are shipping stores and are already behind because of the
work that needed to be done on the fubar'd first shipment.

The PM unpacks the goods and assembles the units. He sees that the
offshore guys have used the bent gage metal configuration described in
the photo. He marks them for shipment and all is good.

Then we started getting the failure calls.

The good news is that we no longer have a weld failure.

The bad news is that now the threads are stripping out on the caster
bolt threads. The caster bolts are ripping out of the weld nuts and
bottoming out - leaving the fixtures movable only with great
difficulty when loaded - in the best case. Leaving the casters fall
out of the weld nuts entirely - in the typical case.

Did I mention that we were doing 8 million dollars worth of business a
year with this customer?

So, my boss (the owner of the company) pulls me off what I was doing
and told me to get to the bottom of this.

Let me say that the PM in question was not, fortunately, one of my
PM's.

I believe that my boss's exact words were, "Fix this ****ing thing,
Tommy. And make sure we don't come out on the **** end."

So, with these words of encouragement ringing in my ears, I proceeded
to perform a destructive test on the offending joint.

Sawing off the tube steel just above the weld nut showed that the
Chinese guys had followed the photo to the letter. The photo that
they had showed the weld nut from the bottom and they had perfectly
bent the gage metal to conform to the inner faces of the tube. They
had performed a more or less perfect weld.

What they did not include was the hex nut that was to have been welded
to the side that was hidden in the photo.

The weld nut consisted of nothing more than a piece of 16 gage metal,
formed into a U, that was threaded to receive the caster bolt. It
provided about one and one half threads of engagement.

This is when my boss fired the PM and put me on this problem full
time, with the guiding words, "Tommy, don't **** this up and make us
look bad."

I pulled the drawings from the RFQ book and all that they showed for
the bolted connection was no more than something like, "3/8" x 3" - 16
TPI bolt to appropriate weld nut." No detail on the connection. I
figured we were hosed. Our guy had sent them a picture of the
obverse, without including the reverse and we had not sufficiently
described our intent on the drawing.

The one and one-half of thread engagement was niggling in my mind and
I thought that I might have an appeal to standards that might be in
place for thread engagement.

That is when I bought Machinery's Handbook.

For those of you who are not familiar with this volume - it is not a
coffee table book.

What I was able to find there was a reference to international
standards that described no less than three full threads of engagement
for a minimal resistance to lateral force. It seemed that I had one
card in my pocket.

What I also found was a description of slop tolerances that are
standard for bolted connections.

On a straight up bolt with what are called parallel threads ( the
usual bolt that you and I deal with) there are three degrees of fit
tolerance. These are 1A/1B, 2A/2B and 3A/3B. What these arcane terms
mean is that there is a certain amount of slop allowed in a male
thread to female thread connection and that these designations
describe a decreasing tolerance for slop from 1A/!B to 3A/3B.

I figured that I was on to something.

It turned out to be the case that there are internationally accepted
standards that require a manufacturer to assume tolerance 2A/2B in the
absence of further direction from the drawings.

Our supplier had submitted a lower tolerance.

I turned my findings over to my boss and he used the two talking
points in his discussions with the supplier.

We were looking at involving this guy in another 14 million dollars
worth of metal business.

The guys caved and agreed to compensate us for onshore modification
and they agreed to go forward with the next phase of production - with
the caveat that they got detailed drawings on the bolted connection,
and that better details were provided in the future.

They proposed to only hold ten thousand dollars as a compensation for
their efforts on our behalf to resolve this matter.

Seemed like a cheap price, considering the gross amount in play.

That is when the light went on.

About a year previous to this we had switched our CAD work from
AutoCAD to another AutoDesk environment called "Inventor".

Inventor is a 3D program where you draw every little individual
element and then assemble all of them into the final drawing.

Every screw, nut, bolt, etc. must be drawn in order for the program to
create an assembly drawing - and the assembly drawings are used to
create what are called the "plate drawings", which show each part and
which are included in the RFQ book.

One of the benefits of using this program is that you draw once and
use the element many times, copy and paste it into other drawings.

We insisted that our suppliers used a current version of the program,
so that we could provide plate drawings that were essentially design
drawings, and so that the supplier could open up the file and see the
details that might not have been included in the plates.

When I opened up the design file on the computer I found a perfectly
executed description of the bolted connection, including all of the
measurements for the weld nut and its use in the connection. It
showed the 16 gage U bend and the hex nut welded behind.

We got our ten grand back.

What should have happened?

We should have had better details on our plate drawings.

Who was wrong?

Everyone. The supplier should have used the ability of the program to
find the details and our company should have had a man in place to
know when the details were not being followed. We should also have
remembered the capabilities of the very expensive drawing program that
we had bought, far earlier.

What was the result?

As far as I know, my former company still does business with the
supplier and he, in fact, the last that I knew, provided about seventy
percent of the metal for a company that used seventy five percent
metal in a fifty million dollar a year business.



Anyway - this is how I came to own a copy of Machinery's Handbook and
know what I know about threaded tolerances.

Sorry if I bored you.
























Regards,

Tom Watson
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/

On Mon, 13 Jul 2009 01:57:22 -0500, "MikeWhy"
wrote:



I must have missed the apologetic tone and the vow to do better next time.
It read like a rant about careless vendors and the triumph of succesful
non-documentation.


I must have missed something also. From the OP it seems the design was
perfectly well documented:

We insisted that our suppliers used a current version of the program,
so that we could provide plate drawings that were essentially design
drawings, and so that the supplier could open up the file and see the
details that might not have been included in the plates.

When I opened up the design file on the computer I found a perfectly
executed description of the bolted connection, including all of the
measurements for the weld nut and its use in the connection. It
showed the 16 gage U bend and the hex nut welded behind.

but that the supplier failed to read the detailed descriptions in the
CAD file..

Tom Veatch
Wichita, KS
USA

"Tom Veatch" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 13 Jul 2009 01:57:22 -0500, "MikeWhy"
wrote:



I must have missed the apologetic tone and the vow to do better next time.
It read like a rant about careless vendors and the triumph of succesful
non-documentation.


I must have missed something also. From the OP it seems the design was
perfectly well documented:

We insisted that our suppliers used a current version of the program,
so that we could provide plate drawings that were essentially design
drawings, and so that the supplier could open up the file and see the
details that might not have been included in the plates.

When I opened up the design file on the computer I found a perfectly
executed description of the bolted connection, including all of the
measurements for the weld nut and its use in the connection. It
showed the 16 gage U bend and the hex nut welded behind.

but that the supplier failed to read the detailed descriptions in the
CAD file..

As did the original project team that sent subsequent, incomplete, and
conflicting detail. So much for clearly described and easily accessible in
the CAD file. In Tom's apocryphal tale, the matter wasn't fully resolved
without esoterica from the Machinery's Handbook.

We're a culture of people entirely too eager to deflect blame elsewhere.
Middle management everywhere, in fact, selects on finger pointing and CYA as
strong secondary traits. Point it fast, and make sure it sticks, because
**** ups happen. Ironically enough, messr watson followed up to query
whether English was my first language. Is it at all surprising that a
foreign supplier, only slightly less so than a native English speaking
supplier, might read the phrase "WELD NUT" on a contract document, and duly
weld a nut at the specified location?

Instead of a lighthearted recounting of how **** happens, we get instead a
war whoop of sorts, a memoire of how we once stuck it to the bad guys. No
thanks, Man. I think it could have been better handled.

On Mon, 13 Jul 2009 15:01:59 -0500, "MikeWhy"
wrote:


"Tom Veatch" wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 13 Jul 2009 01:57:22 -0500, "MikeWhy"
wrote:



I must have missed the apologetic tone and the vow to do better next time.
It read like a rant about careless vendors and the triumph of succesful
non-documentation.


I must have missed something also. From the OP it seems the design was
perfectly well documented:

We insisted that our suppliers used a current version of the program,
so that we could provide plate drawings that were essentially design
drawings, and so that the supplier could open up the file and see the
details that might not have been included in the plates.

When I opened up the design file on the computer I found a perfectly
executed description of the bolted connection, including all of the
measurements for the weld nut and its use in the connection. It
showed the 16 gage U bend and the hex nut welded behind.

but that the supplier failed to read the detailed descriptions in the
CAD file..

As did the original project team that sent subsequent, incomplete, and
conflicting detail. So much for clearly described and easily accessible in
the CAD file. In Tom's apocryphal tale, the matter wasn't fully resolved
without esoterica from the Machinery's Handbook.

We're a culture of people entirely too eager to deflect blame elsewhere.
Middle management everywhere, in fact, selects on finger pointing and CYA as
strong secondary traits. Point it fast, and make sure it sticks, because
**** ups happen. Ironically enough, messr watson followed up to query
whether English was my first language. Is it at all surprising that a
foreign supplier, only slightly less so than a native English speaking
supplier, might read the phrase "WELD NUT" on a contract document, and duly
weld a nut at the specified location?

Instead of a lighthearted recounting of how **** happens, we get instead a
war whoop of sorts, a memoire of how we once stuck it to the bad guys. No
thanks, Man. I think it could have been better handled.



Do you not understand that the CAD file contained the details needed
to make the parts? That the file contained the part drawings? That
the file contained the assembly drawings showing how the parts went
together? AYTFS?


Regards,

Tom Watson
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/

"Tom Watson" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 13 Jul 2009 15:01:59 -0500, "MikeWhy"
wrote:


"Tom Veatch" wrote in message
. ..
On Mon, 13 Jul 2009 01:57:22 -0500, "MikeWhy"
wrote:



I must have missed the apologetic tone and the vow to do better next
time.
It read like a rant about careless vendors and the triumph of succesful
non-documentation.


I must have missed something also. From the OP it seems the design was
perfectly well documented:

We insisted that our suppliers used a current version of the program,
so that we could provide plate drawings that were essentially design
drawings, and so that the supplier could open up the file and see the
details that might not have been included in the plates.

When I opened up the design file on the computer I found a perfectly
executed description of the bolted connection, including all of the
measurements for the weld nut and its use in the connection. It
showed the 16 gage U bend and the hex nut welded behind.

but that the supplier failed to read the detailed descriptions in the
CAD file..

As did the original project team that sent subsequent, incomplete, and
conflicting detail. So much for clearly described and easily accessible in
the CAD file. In Tom's apocryphal tale, the matter wasn't fully resolved
without esoterica from the Machinery's Handbook.

We're a culture of people entirely too eager to deflect blame elsewhere.
Middle management everywhere, in fact, selects on finger pointing and CYA
as
strong secondary traits. Point it fast, and make sure it sticks, because
**** ups happen. Ironically enough, messr watson followed up to query
whether English was my first language. Is it at all surprising that a
foreign supplier, only slightly less so than a native English speaking
supplier, might read the phrase "WELD NUT" on a contract document, and
duly
weld a nut at the specified location?

Instead of a lighthearted recounting of how **** happens, we get instead a
war whoop of sorts, a memoire of how we once stuck it to the bad guys. No
thanks, Man. I think it could have been better handled.



Do you not understand that the CAD file contained the details needed
to make the parts? That the file contained the part drawings? That
the file contained the assembly drawings showing how the parts went
together? AYTFS?

Sure. I read that, Tom. What of it? They missed it. Your guys missed it.
They had a "plate" indicating "WELD NUT". Are we done yet?

Dave Balderstone wrote:
In article , Tom Watson
wrote:

Sorry if I bored you.

My dear Mr. Watson,

Something you have NEVER done is bore me.

Yr. obt. svt.

djb

Amen to dat.

Tanus

Upscale wrote:


Just my own opinion, but Lee Valley Tools is one of those companies that
does go the extra distance and beyond. Too bad the trend in the last 30
years for the vast majority of companies has been to go the profit route at
the expense of the quality route.

Now, if we could only convince LV to enter the power tools for woodworking
arena.




I'm one of those who can't say enough about Lee Valley, and I do often,
much to my wife's consternation.

However, and I think Upscale may have said that tongue-in-cheek, I don't
want to see them enter power tools. No doubt they'd research and
engineer it to the nth degree, but in the end, they've made their mark
with hand tools.

I can get my power tools in other places, and I'm just afraid that if LV
entered that market, something would suffer. I like LV just the way it is.

Tanus

"Upscale" wrote

"Tanus" wrote in message ...
However, and I think Upscale may have said that tongue-in-cheek, I don't
want to see them enter power tools. No doubt they'd research and
engineer it to the nth degree, but in the end, they've made their mark
with hand tools.

Unlikely that you have to worry about it very much. I think they know
where
their expertise lays. If they wanted to get into the power tool market,
they'd have done it long ago.


Going into the power tool business with innovative new products would cost
some big bucks. Not only for research and development, but manufacturing and
marketing costs as well.

Rob Lee has talked aout the luxury of being a private company and being able
to pursue tool design that a publically company may not be able to. But he
also made it clear that there is only so much money to go around and he has
to budget the projects he has.

Development and manufacture of power tools would require a huge amount of
capital, just not available to a family owned company like Lee Valley.

"Tanus" wrote in message ...
However, and I think Upscale may have said that tongue-in-cheek, I don't
want to see them enter power tools. No doubt they'd research and
engineer it to the nth degree, but in the end, they've made their mark
with hand tools.

Unlikely that you have to worry about it very much. I think they know where
their expertise lays. If they wanted to get into the power tool market,
they'd have done it long ago.

On Jul 18, 8:13*pm, "Lee Michaels"
wrote:
"Upscale" wrote

"Tanus" wrote in ....
However, and I think Upscale may have said that tongue-in-cheek, I don't
want to see them enter power tools. No doubt they'd research and
engineer it to the nth degree, but in the end, they've made their mark
with hand tools.

Unlikely that you have to worry about it very much. I think they know
where
their expertise lays. If they wanted to get into the power tool market,
they'd have done it long ago.

Going into the power tool business with innovative new products would cost
some big bucks. Not only for research and development, but manufacturing and
marketing costs as well.

Rob Lee has talked aout the luxury of being a private company and being able
to pursue tool design that a publically company may not be able to. *But he
also made it clear that there is only so much money to go around and he has
to budget the projects he has.

Development and manufacture of power tools would require a huge amount of
capital, just not available to a family owned company like Lee Valley.

Many of Lee Valley's tools fill a need that isn't adequately handled
by others.
The power drill, believe me, is covered, so is the router, so is the
circular saw, and every other kinda tool with a cord or a battery
pack.
No one will ever be able to make the claim that the Lee Valley drill
drills rounder holes than a Milwaukee.
Marketing/manufacturing 101: Find a niche and fill it. There ain't no
niche in the powertool market that isn't already being fought over by
many, many (toooo many) brands.

The way the Lee Valley people think, their drill/saw/router would be
what? As good as a Festool? Better but even more expensive???
Not because they don't know how, not because they don't have the
money, but because they are smarter than that. (They're Canadian,
after all dons Nomex)

There is a better chance LV Organic Cereal will hit the market before
any head-ache-riddled powertool of theirs will.

"Robatoy" wrote in message
There is a better chance LV Organic Cereal will hit the market before
any head-ache-riddled powertool of theirs will.

I wouldn't say that. If a particularly new and different method came up for
some power tool ~ like the Domino (which I feel is a cross between a biscuit
joiner and a plunge router) then who knows, they might give it a shot. If
not, the chances are good they would at least retain the rights to it and
farm the manufacturing and/or marketing out to someone else.

Hell, look at all the trial and tribulations of the Saw Stop. A single
person invented it, had a great deal of trouble marketing it, all the while
fighting off other power saw companies in the process and look where it is
today. You can't tell me the Saw Stop is not a direct threat to every other
table saw manufacturer. They've all got truckloads of cash and yet Saw Stop
is a serious, serious threat to everybody else.

On Jul 18, 11:36*pm, "Upscale" wrote:
"Robatoy" wrote in message
There is a better chance LV Organic Cereal will hit the market before
any head-ache-riddled powertool of theirs will.

I wouldn't say that. If a particularly new and different method came up for
some power tool ~ like the Domino (which I feel is a cross between a biscuit
joiner and a plunge router) then who knows, they might give it a shot. If
not, the chances are good they would at least retain the rights to it and
farm the manufacturing and/or marketing out to someone else.

Hell, look at all the trial and tribulations of the Saw Stop. A single
person invented it, had a great deal of trouble marketing it, all the while
fighting off other power saw companies in the process and look where it is
today. You can't tell me the Saw Stop is not a direct threat to every other
table saw manufacturer. They've all got truckloads of cash and yet Saw Stop
is a serious, serious threat to everybody else.

Sawstop has something nobody else has AND a great saw.
Nobody else has a wiener-activated safety feature. They're working
with Bratwurst in secret, I understand salami is being tried out at
Area 41 Skunkworks along with actual, live skunks.
The Lee family is rumoured to be working on ChiselStop.

Kidding aside, SawStop became a success because first and foremost
they had a new safety concept and proved to all the nay-sayers that
it was reliably functional. Those guys understand electronics and
engineering. Rob Lee understands craftsmen/people and has a nose for
what those want/need. And let's face it, those NeaNderthals don't need
no stinkin' Sawstop OR sawblade guards.

Oh, and NO powertool manufacturer has truckloads of cash. Hell,
they're beating the crap out of each other. Let them, and we benefit.
But to get into the fray? That would be asking for trouble.

"Robatoy" wrote:
--------------------------------------------------------
Oh, and NO powertool manufacturer has truckloads of cash. Hell,
they're beating the crap out of each other. Let them, and we benefit.
But to get into the fray? That would be asking for trouble.
-------------------------------------------------------

Small power tools is definitely not what you would call a growth
business, IMHO.

Terms like "Mature market", "Too many participants", "No dominant
provider", "Commodity market", "Limited growth", "Small market
(probably less than $1 billion world wide)", are terms that come to
mind come when describing the small power tool business.

Lew

Lew Hodgett wrote:


"Robatoy" wrote:
--------------------------------------------------------
Oh, and NO powertool manufacturer has truckloads of cash. Hell,
they're beating the crap out of each other. Let them, and we benefit.
But to get into the fray? That would be asking for trouble.
-------------------------------------------------------

Small power tools is definitely not what you would call a growth
business, IMHO.

Terms like "Mature market", "Too many participants", "No dominant
provider", "Commodity market", "Limited growth", "Small market
(probably less than $1 billion world wide)", are terms that come to
mind come when describing the small power tool business.


Would agree with most of the above except the $1 billion worldwide.
Assuming about $125 per tool (some higher, some lower), that's only about 8
million sales. Even if that were the US only, that would be only 160,000
power tools per state per year -- worldwide that's an awfully small number.
Would think the sales figure to be more on the $10 to $50 billion
worldwide. Not huge, but still not tiny.


Lew

--
If you're going to be dumb, you better be tough

On Jul 19, 1:01*am, "Lew Hodgett" wrote:
"Robatoy" wrote:

--------------------------------------------------------
Oh, and NO powertool manufacturer has truckloads of cash. Hell,
they're beating the crap out of each other. Let them, and we benefit.
But to get into the fray? That would be asking for trouble.
-------------------------------------------------------

Small power tools is definitely not what you would call a growth
business, IMHO.

Terms like "Mature market", "Too many participants", "No dominant
provider", "Commodity market", "Limited growth", "Small market
(probably less than $1 billion world wide)", are terms that come to
mind *come when describing the small power tool business.

Lew

"Mature market" would include market saturation. I see stacks and
stacks of products in the box stores just sitting there.. then I see a
Two-for-One sale..I mean TWO Bosch grinders for $ 119.00. What kind of
margins could there possibly be?
There are many examples like that. Like adding a sander if you buy
jigsaw. These are all 'high profile' companies. And every time they
sell a $ 45.00 jigsaw, they have taken a potential customer for a $
200.00 jigsaw off the market. Very few will upgrade later.

"Robatoy" wrote in message
Terms like "Mature market", "Too many participants", "No dominant
provider", "Commodity market", "Limited growth", "Small market

As I said, if it was something new and different. Has absolutely nothing to
do with your "Mature market", "Too many participants", "No dominant
provider", "Commodity market", "Limited growth", "Small market".

A new unseen, unheard of power tool is exactly that. It doesn't matter if
every household has a power schinkerbob and every workshop contains twenty
flunkertiks. For new, different and useful, there's no such thing as market
saturation. Just doesn't apply.

And there's other things to consider. A few innovative handtools aside, 90%
of Lee Valley Tool's products were and are already on the market when they
came to be. That didn't stop them did it? A major contribution to their
success in my opinion is their customer service policies, something that is
decidedly lacking in today's markets. Many people, me included don't mind
spending a little extra money for their products because I know that if I'm
not satisfied with something, even months later, I can return it for a no
questions asked refund or replacement. For that kind of service, what they
sell is priceless in my view and means I'll shop there again.

For far too long, the market has been concerned solely with cheapest price.
Competition and marketing has inundated the entire market with cheap and
useless products, stuff nobody needs. We are all paying for this torrent of
crap.

Anyway, this is all theorizing.

In article , Mark & Juanita wrote:

Would agree with most of the above except the $1 billion worldwide.
Assuming about $125 per tool (some higher, some lower), that's only about 8
million sales. Even if that were the US only, that would be only 160,000
power tools per state per year -- worldwide that's an awfully small number.
Would think the sales figure to be more on the $10 to $50 billion
worldwide. Not huge, but still not tiny.

I think $125/tool is well on the high side. For every $300 Bosch router that's
sold, there are probably ten $12.95 portable drills.

My guess is that the average retail price of small power tools is closer to
$40-50.

Still, I agree with your conclusion that $1B/year worldwide is way low.

"Upscale" wrote in message
...

A new unseen, unheard of power tool is exactly that. It doesn't matter if
every household has a power schinkerbob and every workshop contains twenty
flunkertiks. For new, different and useful, there's no such thing as
market
saturation. Just doesn't apply.

HI! BILLY MAYS HERE WITH THE AMAZING DUAL SAW!

Upscale wrote:

For far too long, the market has been concerned solely with cheapest price.
Competition and marketing has inundated the entire market with cheap and
useless products, stuff nobody needs. We are all paying for this torrent of
crap.

Anyway, this is all theorizing.

Not so theoretical as all that. Recall the rec discussion of price and
warranty requirements that aborted introduction of the JBot as a product...

....and I recall that discussion every time conversation turns to
difficulties with dovetail jigs, duplicators, pattern drilling,
mortise/tenoning machines, and template routing. s

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/Projects/JBot/

"Morris Dovey" wrote in message
...
Upscale wrote:

For far too long, the market has been concerned solely with cheapest
price.
Competition and marketing has inundated the entire market with cheap and
useless products, stuff nobody needs. We are all paying for this torrent
of
crap.

Anyway, this is all theorizing.

Not so theoretical as all that. Recall the rec discussion of price and
warranty requirements that aborted introduction of the JBot as a
product...

...and I recall that discussion every time conversation turns to
difficulties with dovetail jigs, duplicators, pattern drilling,
mortise/tenoning machines, and template routing. s

I take it JBot is a CNC router/drill? Yup. The time will come for that, when
folks start wondering why electronics innovation should stop outside the
shop doors. I can see a reasonably accurate, limited envelope router/drill
replacing all the dovetail and mortising jigs on the market.

Twenty years from now, on the eve of the year 2030, everyone will have
replaced their sketching pencils with Sketchup 342.0. Sometime between then
and now, the revolution will have taken place, leaving only the true
diehards to yearn for the simpler days of handcut hardboard templates.

"MikeWhy" wrote:

I take it JBot is a CNC router/drill? Yup. The time will come for
that, when folks start wondering why electronics innovation should
stop outside the shop doors.

It's already here.

If you have been following "This Old House", they showed a
computerized "Router System" being used in a cabinet shop somewhere
around Boston.

Material is placed on infeed roller table and then clamped and fed
into the cutting tool using X-Y positioning..

Router cutting has replaced saw blades for cutting blanks to size.

A rotary pallet, containing probably at least 100 router bits, would
rotate to present the correct bit for loading into the spindle chuck.

For those of you familiar with metal working machinery, it uses the
same concepts as a Weideman press used to blank out sheet metal parts.

Obviously, this is strictly for commercial applications; however, look
for off shoots of the concepts to appear at your local toy store
before too long.

Lew

MikeWhy wrote:

I take it JBot is a CNC router/drill? Yup. The time will come for that,
when folks start wondering why electronics innovation should stop
outside the shop doors. I can see a reasonably accurate, limited
envelope router/drill replacing all the dovetail and mortising jigs on
the market.

You've probably already seen it at the link below. Step size is 1/4800"
(approx 0.0002083") in all three axes - reasonably accurate for most
woodworking. Runs industry standard g-code.

It's an "adequate" joinery machine, and is still as accurate as the day
it was finished.

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/Projects/JBot/

"Morris Dovey" wrote in message
...
MikeWhy wrote:

I take it JBot is a CNC router/drill? Yup. The time will come for that,
when folks start wondering why electronics innovation should stop outside
the shop doors. I can see a reasonably accurate, limited envelope
router/drill replacing all the dovetail and mortising jigs on the market.

You've probably already seen it at the link below. Step size is 1/4800"
(approx 0.0002083") in all three axes - reasonably accurate for most
woodworking. Runs industry standard g-code.

It's an "adequate" joinery machine, and is still as accurate as the day it
was finished.
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/Projects/JBot/

It's the right size. It's the right shape. Every home shop should have one.
I remember our conversation now. I got carried away, and made mine way
complicated. Servo motors; ballscrews; linear slides. And then set it aside
for the impracticality.

Hmmm.