"dadiOH" wrote

Jay R wrote:
To echo your question, do the rules of this group preclude posting of
pix here? Anybody?

The group is unmoderated; therefore, there are no rules but binaries in
any form are not appropriate for text newsgroups such as this. Why?
Because they require large amounts of server storage; consequently, there
is less room for text messages. Less room = less retention.

Plus the fact that many ISP's filter out any binaries. Again, because of
the bandwidth problem outlined above.

On Jul 15, 2:20*am, "Lee Michaels" wrote:
wrote



He got you on the marble countertop biz too, eh?

The countertop remark (his first post) was a little close to home. *If
I was you, I wouldn't have let it pass either.

Actually I was thinking of baiting Robatoy with a fake balsa wood countertop
story. *Except he would probably get very interested in it.

On account that it would be the one countertop he could install that
absolutely would NOT give him a hernia.

LOL... That reminds me of a customer who made a countertop out of MDF
for the laundry room. He laminated it, but didn't bother with a
balance sheet on the bottom. Now he can use it outside to receive
satellite signals. The dishing actually ripped the screws right off
the cleats.

Balsa, eh? That'll protect the edge on a meat-cleaver nicely, wot?

Besides, *my* hernia? Talk to my guys about hernias. Every time I walk
in from my office into the shop and announce that I sold another
Quartz job, they reach for their groins. G At about 25 pounds per
square foot, that stuff is a lot of fun.... especially if you have to
lift a 10-footer high enough to clear the sink-cabinet with a sink
hanging from the bottom.

r--- who thinks quartz is a young man's game.

Jay R wrote:
Verizon now restricts usenet to what they call the big 8 classes of
groups.

Time Warner as well.

I also saw Comcast is testing selling their service down in Texas by
download amounts.

They have taken out the porn of course but also music movies and
other high bandwidth usage.

They have also said in their terms that accessing the binaries and
other than the big 8 using a news service, violates their terms of
use.

Would you care to quote the part of their terms of service that states
this? I can't find any mention at all of USENET or NNTP in their TOS.

Regardless of what they say, it is all about preserving bandwidth.

They have taken school newsgroups, software company support groups
such as Adobe and a multitude of others.

You can bet that once they find a way to contol it, and charge for
it, they will be back.

To echo your question, do the rules of this group preclude posting
of
pix here? Anybody?

The charter I believe indicates that this is a non-binary group. If
you post pictures here you will find that most servers will dump them
down the bit-bucket automatically.

If you want to post pictures, get a free flickr or photobucket or
whatever account and post there with a link.


"Phisherman" wrote in message
...
After many years of use my ISP have removed all alt.binaries
newsgroups. When I try to access alt.binaries.pictures.woodworking
I
get an error. AT&T says it is doing this due to child porn, but I
have never seen child porn in ABPW. I guess other ISPs may be
doing
the same. So how will this group easily share pictures? Is
Usenet
changing or deteriorating?

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

Smaug Ichorfang wrote:
According to their web site,
they (claim to) operate under Texas law. I just called a Dallas lawyer to
see what can be done. They want to mess with me, they've chosen a tough
enemy. I've got a computer to write letters with, a phone to make calls
with, and nothing but free time on my hands to put them to use!


I wish you all the best...

Smaug Ichorfang wrote:

snipped


With respect, I disagree. It only costs me a 41 cent stamp*, a sheet of
paper, and a little time to write a letter of complaint. Even if they're
paying minimum-wage-slaves to collect my mail and throw it in the trash
unopened, they are out more money than I am. After a dozen or so of
these letters, even if they go straight to the trash, they have lost more
money than they make in profits fom the ISP account. They've already
violated their contract and TOS. Further actions, such as disconnecting
my account because I sent them mail complaining of the fact will be
looked upon poorly by the State Atty. general, and more importsntly by
the judge in the small claims case I will file next month if this keeps
up. If someone is interested in taking legal action, I *highly* recomend
sueing in small claims court. Here in Okla. the client can't be
represented by an attourney. The filing fee is about $50. It will cost
ATT more to deal with hundreds of individual cases than it will for a
single class-action suit.


Where did AT&T violate their contract or TOS?

For the AT&T Wordnet "Terms of Service" web page:

"2.1 Modifications to Service. AT&T reserves the right to modify or
discontinue, temporarily or permanently, at any time and from time to
time, the Service (or any function or feature of the Service or any part
thereof, including, but not limited to, rates and charges) with or
without notice. Should the technology become available, AT&T and its
affiliates reserve the right to provision your Service over a different
access technology and may do so without notice if such change(s) will
not negatively impact the speeds for which you signed up or require new
customer premises equipment. Without limiting the foregoing, AT&T may
post, or email, notices of changes in the Service. It is your
responsibility to check our web site and your AT&T email address for any
such notices. You agree that AT&T will not be liable to you or to any
third party for any such modification, suspension or discontinuance of
the Service."

--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA

"Mortimer Schnerd, RN" mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com wrote in message
...
Kate wrote:
I saw the same thing yesterday.
Maybe if we rise up and complain, they will give it back?

I for one am going to raise a fuss.


Why bother? I pay $8 a month to GigaNews for way more capacity than I'll
ever
use.

-----
Because $8.00 is two gallons of fuel for my Jeep...
This means 20 miles of offroad FUN playing on the rocks and in the mud.
Add up a few months, and it's an entire weekend of fun up at Superlift or
another great place. That's why!

--
Kate
_oooo_
/l ,[____],
l-L -OlllllllO-
()_)-()_)--)_)

The shortest distance between two points,
is a lot more fun in a Jeep!

"mac davis" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 14 Jul 2008 07:09:05 -0500, "Kate" wrote:

I saw the same thing yesterday.
Maybe if we rise up and complain, they will give it back?

I for one am going to raise a fuss.

K.

IMHO, it's not worth the trouble, Kate...
You've got better things to do with your time than shouting into a deaf
corporate ear..
Do some carving... Go get the Jeep muddy..

--- I just think you're great Mac. Wonderful idea!
But, you know what? When I first moved here I started writing and calling
BellSouth to get DSL into our rural area. I FINALLY went all the way up the
chain of command to the (then) president. He made it happen for me. Really!

I've been using APN for over a year and like it a lot... $2.95 a month and
great
service..
http://www.forteinc.com/apn/index.php

Is your time and stress level worth $36 a year?

---Nope, prolly not. Since the ONLY binary group I subscribed to was the
woodworking group, it might not be worth it either.
Well, occasionally the PSP binary group and some other artsy fartsy place
that I've forgotten the name of.

You're ok Mac, yep, pretty much ok... you being a fella and all. ;¬D

K




mac

Please remove splinters before emailing

ME TOO!
You go Keith! Kick some ISP butt!

K.

"Keith nuttle" wrote in message
...
Kate wrote:
I saw the same thing yesterday.
Maybe if we rise up and complain, they will give it back?

I for one am going to raise a fuss.

K.

"Phisherman" wrote in message
...
After many years of use my ISP have removed all alt.binaries
newsgroups. When I try to access alt.binaries.pictures.woodworking I
get an error. AT&T says it is doing this due to child porn, but I
have never seen child porn in ABPW. I guess other ISPs may be doing
the same. So how will this group easily share pictures? Is Usenet
changing or deteriorating?



There are 8 responses to the original reply. One of the forums that I
visits, of a very regional nature, list the number of times a message is
viewed. It is not uncommon to have on message viewed 20 to 50 times.

What is my point, will if everyone who posted a response had sent a
complaint to their IPS, that would have been a between 160 to 400
complaints. Since this newsgroup has significantly larger following,
each message is probably viewed many more times. I am sure that if the
all viewers of alt.binaries.pictures.woodworking sent a complaint to
their IPS there would be at a minimum several thousand complaints
registered, enough to shut down their complaint system and get their
attention. I have already sent mine

on 7/15/2008 9:11 PM Kate said the following:
ME TOO!
You go Keith! Kick some ISP butt!

K.

"Keith nuttle" wrote in message
...
Kate wrote:

I saw the same thing yesterday.
Maybe if we rise up and complain, they will give it back?

I for one am going to raise a fuss.

K.

"Phisherman" wrote in message
...
After many years of use my ISP have removed all alt.binaries
newsgroups. When I try to access alt.binaries.pictures.woodworking I
get an error. AT&T says it is doing this due to child porn, but I
have never seen child porn in ABPW. I guess other ISPs may be doing
the same. So how will this group easily share pictures? Is Usenet
changing or deteriorating?




There are 8 responses to the original reply. One of the forums that I
visits, of a very regional nature, list the number of times a message is
viewed. It is not uncommon to have on message viewed 20 to 50 times.

What is my point, will if everyone who posted a response had sent a
complaint to their IPS, that would have been a between 160 to 400
complaints. Since this newsgroup has significantly larger following,
each message is probably viewed many more times. I am sure that if the
all viewers of alt.binaries.pictures.woodworking sent a complaint to
their IPS there would be at a minimum several thousand complaints
registered, enough to shut down their complaint system and get their
attention. I have already sent mine

One of the problems of allowing just one alt.binaries.pictures group is
that the porn posters and readers of the blocked groups would flood that
one group with their messages and pictures.

--

Bill
In Hamptonburgh, NY
To email, remove the double zeroes after @

Kate wrote:
ME TOO!
You go Keith! Kick some ISP butt!

K.

"Keith nuttle" wrote in message
...
Kate wrote:
I saw the same thing yesterday.
Maybe if we rise up and complain, they will give it back?

I for one am going to raise a fuss.

K.

"Phisherman" wrote in message
...
After many years of use my ISP have removed all alt.binaries
newsgroups. When I try to access alt.binaries.pictures.woodworking
I
get an error. AT&T says it is doing this due to child porn, but I
have never seen child porn in ABPW. I guess other ISPs may be
doing
the same. So how will this group easily share pictures? Is
Usenet
changing or deteriorating?



There are 8 responses to the original reply. One of the forums that
I
visits, of a very regional nature, list the number of times a
message
is viewed. It is not uncommon to have on message viewed 20 to 50
times.

What is my point, will if everyone who posted a response had sent a
complaint to their IPS, that would have been a between 160 to 400
complaints. Since this newsgroup has significantly larger
following,
each message is probably viewed many more times. I am sure that if
the all viewers of alt.binaries.pictures.woodworking sent a
complaint
to their IPS there would be at a minimum several thousand complaints
registered, enough to shut down their complaint system and get their
attention. I have already sent mine

Do you really think that there are several thousand subscribers in New
York who give a damn about that particular newsgroup? And what makes
you think that "several thousand complaints registered" will "shut
down their complaint system"? They just go into the inbox to be
handled in the order recieved.

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

"J. Clarke" wrote in message
York who give a damn about that particular newsgroup? And what makes
you think that "several thousand complaints registered" will "shut
down their complaint system"? They just go into the inbox to be
handled in the order recieved.

Hell, if they get some sort of satisfaction by railing at the ISPs, then I
say 'Go For It' although it's a complete waste of time in my opinion.

Me? I prefer to get my satisfaction, as small as that may be, by taking my
business elsewhere.

Upscale wrote:

Hell, if they get some sort of satisfaction by railing at the ISPs, then I
say 'Go For It' although it's a complete waste of time in my opinion.

Me? I prefer to get my satisfaction, as small as that may be, by taking my
business elsewhere.

Talking your business elsewhere is the highest form of "railing at the
ISP's", as long as they know WHY you are taking your business elsewhere.
There is stiff competition for your ISP dollar, and every complaint
they get is worth WAY more than one complaint (most people don't
complain even when unhappy) and every lost customer is scary to a
business in stiff competition. The big fear is all the big carriers
stop providing the service you want, so there is no where "else" to take
your business.

The other fear is that Usenet, which is completely dependent on usage,
will lose enough users to become useless. This is what happened to
Fidonet, but at least Fidonet was replaced for better or worse by
Usenet, ie, technological improvement rather than a business decision.

--
Jack
http://jbstein.com

"Jack Stein" wrote in message
. ..
Upscale wrote:

Hell, if they get some sort of satisfaction by railing at the ISPs, then
I
say 'Go For It' although it's a complete waste of time in my opinion.

Me? I prefer to get my satisfaction, as small as that may be, by taking
my
business elsewhere.

That's not practical for everybody either; certainly not for me. I just
gave COMCAST the heave-ho early this year and am not anxious to rip out my
DSL just yet.

Dave in Houston

"Dave in Houston" wrote in message
...

"Jack Stein" wrote in message
. ..
Upscale wrote:

Hell, if they get some sort of satisfaction by railing at the ISPs, then
I
say 'Go For It' although it's a complete waste of time in my opinion.

Me? I prefer to get my satisfaction, as small as that may be, by taking
my
business elsewhere.

That's not practical for everybody either; certainly not for me. I
just gave COMCAST the heave-ho early this year and am not anxious to rip
out my DSL just yet.

Dave in Houston
I'm ready to give Verizon the heave-ho, but Comcast is my only option.

"Lowell Holmes" wrote:

I'm ready to give Verizon the heave-ho, but Comcast is my only option.

SFWIW, signed up with Verizon in 2008/04.

So far, so good.

Tech service is much better than Earthlink was.

Lew

"Lew Hodgett" wrote in message
news:vBwfk.394$kf4.370@trnddc03...

"Lowell Holmes" wrote:

I'm ready to give Verizon the heave-ho, but Comcast is my only option.

SFWIW, signed up with Verizon in 2008/04.

So far, so good.

Tech service is much better than Earthlink was.

Lew


I've had Verizon for three years and each year the service determinates and
the technicians in India can only follow the script. They have told me
things I know are not true, for instance, one said that Internet Explorer
had to be running for Outlook Express to run. I have major connectivity
problems.

"Lowell Holmes" wrote:


I'vehad Verizon for three years and each year the service
determinates and the technicians in India can only follow the
script. They have told me things I know are not true, for instance,
one said that Internet Explorer had to be running for Outlook
Express to run. I have major connectivity problems.


Believe it or not I've had good luck with both Verizon and M/S tech
service from India.

Gave both on line access to puter to resolve problems.

Neither one of those guys were robots, they definitely had their act
together.

They took control, made changes, and solved problem(s).

It was a pleasure.


--
Lew Hodgett
Box 2302
Whittier, CA, 90610-2302
E-Mail:

On Mon, 14 Jul 2008 21:03:18 GMT, Smaug Ichorfang said...

Vincent wrote in
:


I'd have to think that most newsgroup users get their access through
standalone newsgroup services

What in the world would make you think such a thing? I've been around
playing with computers since FidoNet days. Since before Timmy Berners-Lee
discovered html and the WorldWideWeb. Since back in the day when the
internet was only usenet, mail, and ftp. Then along can AOL and things
went downhill ever since. **sigh**

I was referring to the current state of Usenet, and not the pre-Web days.

Folks still access the newsgroups through their ISPs, they still connect to text
based newsgroups through free resources, but there is definitely a growing
percentage of Usenet users that access through paid newsgroup services.

Usenet has changed considerably since the late 1980's... more newsgroups, more
content, larger files, etc... and most ISPs & free resources do not want to
invest in the equipment or an outsourcing arrangement to provide an adequate
newsgroup service. As a result people move to dedicated newsgroup providers to
get a better level of service (longer retention, no missing posts, etc.)

I get my Internet access through Roadrunner. It upsets me that I can't get
Usenet through them, but nowadays it's simply more convenient, reliable &
affordable to get my newsgroups through a dedicated provider like a Newsguy.

V

"Lew Hodgett" wrote in news:zMxfk.345$Cw5.163
@trnddc01:

Believe it or not I've had good luck with both Verizon and M/S tech
service from India.

Gave both on line access to puter to resolve problems.

Neither one of those guys were robots, they definitely had their act
together.

They took control, made changes, and solved problem(s).

It was a pleasure.

Well, generally I am satisfied with Verizon support. Better if you don't
need it, but it is OK.

I am NOT satisfied with MS support, at least in my latest endeavor. I
had wanted to follow the advice to install SP1 for Vista Home Basic on
this cheap laptop (Acer), but despite hours and hours and hours, no go.
So I have given up installing SP1. Of course, now I will have to wait
and see whether I can still get all other hotfixes etc. So far, so good.

Of course, that is no real reflection on Support, but on MS design of the
SP1 update, since it is unable to tell me what to do to fix whatever
issue(s) SP1 is having with my 'puter. Unfortunately, the MVPs on the MS
newsgroup are only able to refer to websites outlining what should be
done to prep for SP1, with none of that being helpful so far. Eventually
I might spring for a basic install DVD from Acer, but then my laptop is
getting expensive, not cheap.

--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

Vincent wrote:
On Mon, 14 Jul 2008 21:03:18 GMT, Smaug Ichorfang said...
Vincent wrote in
:


I'd have to think that most newsgroup users get their access through
standalone newsgroup services

What in the world would make you think such a thing? I've been around
playing with computers since FidoNet days. Since before Timmy Berners-Lee
discovered html and the WorldWideWeb. Since back in the day when the
internet was only usenet, mail, and ftp. Then along can AOL and things
went downhill ever since. **sigh**

I was referring to the current state of Usenet, and not the pre-Web days.

Folks still access the newsgroups through their ISPs, they still connect to text
based newsgroups through free resources, but there is definitely a growing
percentage of Usenet users that access through paid newsgroup services.

Usenet has changed considerably since the late 1980's... more newsgroups, more
content, larger files, etc... and most ISPs & free resources do not want to
invest in the equipment or an outsourcing arrangement to provide an adequate
newsgroup service.

I'd bet byte for byte the equipment is far cheaper than it used to be.
Heck, I'm sitting here with over 550 GIGS of hard drive storage myself,
and I don't have millions of users paying $50/month for service.

As a result people move to dedicated newsgroup providers to
get a better level of service (longer retention, no missing posts, etc.)

As it stands, I doubt you could get a better level of service than I get
from Comcast which provides Giganews free to their users.

I get my Internet access through Roadrunner. It upsets me that I can't get
Usenet through them, but nowadays it's simply more convenient, reliable &
affordable to get my newsgroups through a dedicated provider like a Newsguy.

Around here it costs about the same for Verizon and Comcast, the two
large high speed providers. Verizon has fiber, Comcast has cable.
About the only difference I can see is Verizon supposedly is dropping
all the Alt binaries and Comcast still provides everything free. The
way I see it, Comcast has my business as long as they continue to
provide more bang for the buck. Dropping binaries is reducing services
that I use, and use a lot. Many people don't use any of this, and it's
free and right at their fingertips. Many fewer people will use these
services if they have to take the initiative in finding a service, and
then set it up.

I'd like to see Comcast advertise the fact they provide all newsgroups
free so people can share photos with the world whilst Verizon, their
lame competitor doesn't. Even if people don't know what it is, they
would love it because it's about pictures and it's free.

--
Jack
http://jbstein.com

Haven't read every reply, so apologies if this is a repeat.

Try newsguy.com

Various levels of service/cost, but for ~$9/mon (which I believe they
discount if you subscribe for a whole year) you get access to all the
groups and can download 10G/month .

Had them for years and quite satisfied.

Renata

On Sun, 13 Jul 2008 22:38:03 -0400, Phisherman
wrote:

After many years of use my ISP have removed all alt.binaries
newsgroups. When I try to access alt.binaries.pictures.woodworking I
get an error. AT&T says it is doing this due to child porn, but I
have never seen child porn in ABPW. I guess other ISPs may be doing
the same. So how will this group easily share pictures? Is Usenet
changing or deteriorating?

On Thu, 17 Jul 2008 09:45:40 -0400, Renata wrote:

Haven't read every reply, so apologies if this is a repeat.

Try newsguy.com

Various levels of service/cost, but for ~$9/mon (which I believe they
discount if you subscribe for a whole year) you get access to all the
groups and can download 10G/month .

Had them for years and quite satisfied.

Renata

I'm a sort of heavy down loader (music) so I use APN and have been very happy
with them..

Plans range from $3 a month for 10 gigs to $15 a month for unlimited..
Good retention, tech support and billing has been really good..

My ISP doesn't provide ANY newsgroups, so I went with APN last year on their 90
day trial and switched to the paid plan within a few weeks to get more gigs..
YMWV


mac

Please remove splinters before emailing

On Thu, 17 Jul 2008 08:06:27 -0400, Jack Stein said...

Vincent wrote:
On Mon, 14 Jul 2008 21:03:18 GMT, Smaug Ichorfang said...
Vincent wrote in
:


I'd have to think that most newsgroup users get their access through
standalone newsgroup services

What in the world would make you think such a thing? I've been around
playing with computers since FidoNet days. Since before Timmy Berners-Lee
discovered html and the WorldWideWeb. Since back in the day when the
internet was only usenet, mail, and ftp. Then along can AOL and things
went downhill ever since. **sigh**

I was referring to the current state of Usenet, and not the pre-Web days.

Folks still access the newsgroups through their ISPs, they still connect to text
based newsgroups through free resources, but there is definitely a growing
percentage of Usenet users that access through paid newsgroup services.

Usenet has changed considerably since the late 1980's... more newsgroups, more
content, larger files, etc... and most ISPs & free resources do not want to
invest in the equipment or an outsourcing arrangement to provide an adequate
newsgroup service.

I'd bet byte for byte the equipment is far cheaper than it used to be.
Heck, I'm sitting here with over 550 GIGS of hard drive storage myself,
and I don't have millions of users paying $50/month for service.

I don't run a newsgroup service, and it's not my area of expertise, so it's just
speculation on my behalf

I'm not aware of any newsgroup services charging $50 month, and most of the
services I'm familiar with are inexpensive.

My provider for example (Newsguy) has newsgroup accounts for as little as $3
month, and I doubt that Newsguy or any of the newsgroup services have millions
of paying individual customers. If I used your numbers... say 2 million
customers at $50/month... these newsgroup services would be generating $1.2
billion dollars a year. I'm sorry, but that seems highly unlikely.

As far as hardware, I dunno. Like any other business I'm sure there are other
costs that these folks incur... servers, bandwidth, employees, healthcare
benefits. etc... so as their cost of doing business increases, so do their
membership fees. I suppose it's the same reason why a loaf of bread no longer
costs $.25, or cars no longer cost $5,000.


As a result people move to dedicated newsgroup providers to
get a better level of service (longer retention, no missing posts, etc.)

As it stands, I doubt you could get a better level of service than I get
from Comcast which provides Giganews free to their users.

I get my Internet access through Roadrunner. It upsets me that I can't get
Usenet through them, but nowadays it's simply more convenient, reliable &
affordable to get my newsgroups through a dedicated provider like a Newsguy.

Around here it costs about the same for Verizon and Comcast, the two
large high speed providers. Verizon has fiber, Comcast has cable.
About the only difference I can see is Verizon supposedly is dropping
all the Alt binaries and Comcast still provides everything free. The
way I see it, Comcast has my business as long as they continue to
provide more bang for the buck. Dropping binaries is reducing services
that I use, and use a lot. Many people don't use any of this, and it's
free and right at their fingertips. Many fewer people will use these
services if they have to take the initiative in finding a service, and
then set it up.

I'd like to see Comcast advertise the fact they provide all newsgroups
free so people can share photos with the world whilst Verizon, their
lame competitor doesn't. Even if people don't know what it is, they
would love it because it's about pictures and it's free.

While I hope it's not the case, I have a feeling that ISPs will begin to
discontinue their newsgroup services in light of the decisions made by
Roadrunner, Verizon, AT&T, etc.

V

On Jul 17, 10:32 am, mac davis wrote:

My ISP doesn't provide ANY newsgroups, so I went with APN last year on their 90
day trial and switched to the paid plan within a few weeks to get more gigs..
YMWV

Mac- what is APN?

Robert

In article , mac davis says...

On Thu, 17 Jul 2008 09:45:40 -0400, Renata wrote:

Haven't read every reply, so apologies if this is a repeat.

Try newsguy.com

Various levels of service/cost, but for ~$9/mon (which I believe they
discount if you subscribe for a whole year) you get access to all the
groups and can download 10G/month .

Had them for years and quite satisfied.

Renata

I'm a sort of heavy down loader (music) so I use APN and have been very happy
with them..

Plans range from $3 a month for 10 gigs to $15 a month for unlimited..
Good retention, tech support and billing has been really good..

My ISP doesn't provide ANY newsgroups, so I went with APN last year on their 90
day trial and switched to the paid plan within a few weeks to get more gigs..
YMWV


mac

Please remove splinters before emailing

I had signed up with NNTPjunkie recently. They started offering a special to
AT&T an Bell customers that adds extra free time. It also applies to Roadrunner
and Verizon customers that also lost some or all of their Usenet service
recently too.

NNTPjunkie has a 30 GB accounts for under $10/month and they have Unlimited
accounts at $14.95/month. You can connect with Agent, but I've been checking out
their web access from work and I like it so far. If you have an interest...

http://www.nntpjunkie.com/overview.htm

Lance
--

wrote in message
My ISP doesn't provide ANY newsgroups, so I went with APN last year on
their 90
day trial and switched to the paid plan within a few weeks to get more
gigs..
YMWV

Mac- what is APN?

Agent Premium News. As well as the other attributes mentioned about them,
they have a much greater downloading speed. I usually get about
1000kb/second downloading speed. Much better than the 250k offered by most
others even though they say it's higher.

Vincent wrote:

Usenet has changed considerably since the late 1980's... more newsgroups, more
content, larger files, etc... and most ISPs & free resources do not want to
invest in the equipment or an outsourcing arrangement to provide an adequate
newsgroup service.

Jack Stein said...
I'd bet byte for byte the equipment is far cheaper than it used to be.
Heck, I'm sitting here with over 550 GIGS of hard drive storage myself,
and I don't have millions of users paying $50/month for service.


Vincent wrote:
I'm not aware of any newsgroup services charging $50 month, and most of the
services I'm familiar with are inexpensive.

COMCAST is an ISP, and you think most ISP's do not wish to invest in the
equipment to provide adequate newsgroup service. Comcast charges around
$50 a month for their high speed service, the newsgroups are provided
free to all subscribers. There is no monthly fee at all and the service
provided is via Giganews. Comcast has their own servers for this free
service, and that extra equipment has become extremely cheap to a
company like Comcast that has millions of customers.

My provider for example (Newsguy) has newsgroup accounts for as little as $3
month, and I doubt that Newsguy or any of the newsgroup services have millions
of paying individual customers.

No,but Giganews probably does, considering Comcast is likely their
principle customer.

If I used your numbers... say 2 million
customers at $50/month... these newsgroup services would be generating $1.2
billion dollars a year. I'm sorry, but that seems highly unlikely.

Yes, but you and I were talking ISP's, not just the newsgroup companies
like Giganews. I have no idea what small part of the ISP fees Comcast
pays to Giganews, but my guess is it is a very, very, very small
percentage of the fees charged to their customers.

As far as hardware, I dunno. Like any other business I'm sure there are other
costs that these folks incur... servers, bandwidth, employees, healthcare
benefits. etc... so as their cost of doing business increases, so do their
membership fees. I suppose it's the same reason why a loaf of bread no longer
costs $.25, or cars no longer cost $5,000.

I get your point but many things, particularly computer hardware and all
the stuff needed to provide storage and bandwidth has gotten far cheaper
over the years, thats why sitting on my cluttered desk I have more
storage space than the whole world had in total just 30 years ago, and
is why megabytes can be downloaded in seconds instead of hours, and why
newsgroups and binary data is no big deal to large providers like
Comcast and Verizon.

I'd like to see Comcast advertise the fact they provide all newsgroups
free so people can share photos with the world whilst Verizon, their
lame competitor doesn't. Even if people don't know what it is, they
would love it because it's about pictures and it's free.

While I hope it's not the case, I have a feeling that ISPs will begin to
discontinue their newsgroup services in light of the decisions made by
Roadrunner, Verizon, AT&T, etc.

I certainly think if no one really cares, or no one complains which is
the same thing really, then it will go away (the free service) I also
hope if it does, enough people will have the incentive to go out and pay
additional money for binary services, but my first guess is no one, or
few will, and binary groups like ABPW will be history. No big deal I
reckon, of course there won't much reason for Roadrunner to exist
anymore, since the non-binary groups will still be provided free by the
big ISP's

--
Jack
http://jbstein.com

In article ,
says...

On Jul 17, 10:32 am, mac davis wrote:

My ISP doesn't provide ANY newsgroups, so I went with APN last year on their 90
day trial and switched to the paid plan within a few weeks to get more gigs..
YMWV

Mac- what is APN?

Robert

Hi Robert,

APN is dedicated newsgroup provider, and there are a number of companies out
there that provide similar service.

If you require better newsgroup access than what your ISP or a free newsgroup
service can offer, you have the option of buying a membership with one the
dedicated providers like APN.

I use a provider called Newsguy, which got an "A" ranking at the
Newsgroupreviews.com website (http://newsgroupreviews.com/Newsguy.html), which
reviews and ranks different newsgroup providers. I was unable to find APN
anywhere in their rankings.

For what it's worth I included a quick comparison of the two newsgroup providers
below...

Newsguy APN
Download capacity 10GB 10GB
Cost $3 month $3 month
Connections allowed 32 4
Binary history 90 days 70 days
Unused GB roll over Yes No
Free header downloads Yes No
NNTP & Web access Yes No
Newsgroup search engine Yes No
Free SSL security Yes No
Free email boxes Yes No

Most of the dedicated newsgroup providers have a trial period, so you can try
them for free before buying a membership.

I'd recommend trialing a few, and comparing their features & prices to find the
one that's best for you. I had to learn through trial & error that not all
newsgroup providers are the same, so I hope the info is helpful.

V

In article ,
says...
On Thu, 17 Jul 2008 08:06:27 -0400, Jack Stein said...

Vincent wrote:
On Mon, 14 Jul 2008 21:03:18 GMT, Smaug Ichorfang said...
Vincent wrote in
:


I'd have to think that most newsgroup users get their access through
standalone newsgroup services

What in the world would make you think such a thing? I've been around
playing with computers since FidoNet days. Since before Timmy Berners-Lee
discovered html and the WorldWideWeb. Since back in the day when the
internet was only usenet, mail, and ftp. Then along can AOL and things
went downhill ever since. **sigh**

I was referring to the current state of Usenet, and not the pre-Web days.

Folks still access the newsgroups through their ISPs, they still connect to text
based newsgroups through free resources, but there is definitely a growing
percentage of Usenet users that access through paid newsgroup services.

Usenet has changed considerably since the late 1980's... more newsgroups, more
content, larger files, etc... and most ISPs & free resources do not want to
invest in the equipment or an outsourcing arrangement to provide an adequate
newsgroup service.

I'd bet byte for byte the equipment is far cheaper than it used to be.
Heck, I'm sitting here with over 550 GIGS of hard drive storage myself,
and I don't have millions of users paying $50/month for service.

I don't remember the numbers, but your 550GB drive is likely enough
for an hour's complete Usenet feed. The amount of data is truly
massive.

I don't run a newsgroup service, and it's not my area of expertise, so it's just
speculation on my behalf

I'm not aware of any newsgroup services charging $50 month, and most of the
services I'm familiar with are inexpensive.

One of mine is $8/mo and the other is (now, I've heard,) $16/yr.
It's not a big deal.

My provider for example (Newsguy) has newsgroup accounts for as little as $3
month, and I doubt that Newsguy or any of the newsgroup services have millions
of paying individual customers. If I used your numbers... say 2 million
customers at $50/month... these newsgroup services would be generating $1.2
billion dollars a year. I'm sorry, but that seems highly unlikely.

I'd think that would be enough to get the big guys interested. ;-)

As far as hardware, I dunno. Like any other business I'm sure there are other
costs that these folks incur... servers, bandwidth, employees, healthcare
benefits. etc... so as their cost of doing business increases, so do their
membership fees. I suppose it's the same reason why a loaf of bread no longer
costs $.25, or cars no longer cost $5,000.

Right. Usenet has always been a loser for the ISPs. It's not
really enough of their business to warrant the expense.

As a result people move to dedicated newsgroup providers to
get a better level of service (longer retention, no missing posts, etc.)

As it stands, I doubt you could get a better level of service than I get
from Comcast which provides Giganews free to their users.

I get my Internet access through Roadrunner. It upsets me that I can't get
Usenet through them, but nowadays it's simply more convenient, reliable &
affordable to get my newsgroups through a dedicated provider like a Newsguy.

Around here it costs about the same for Verizon and Comcast, the two
large high speed providers. Verizon has fiber, Comcast has cable.
About the only difference I can see is Verizon supposedly is dropping
all the Alt binaries and Comcast still provides everything free. The
way I see it, Comcast has my business as long as they continue to
provide more bang for the buck. Dropping binaries is reducing services
that I use, and use a lot. Many people don't use any of this, and it's
free and right at their fingertips. Many fewer people will use these
services if they have to take the initiative in finding a service, and
then set it up.

I'd like to see Comcast advertise the fact they provide all newsgroups
free so people can share photos with the world whilst Verizon, their
lame competitor doesn't. Even if people don't know what it is, they
would love it because it's about pictures and it's free.

While I hope it's not the case, I have a feeling that ISPs will begin to
discontinue their newsgroup services in light of the decisions made by
Roadrunner, Verizon, AT&T, etc.

They will, but as you point out, there are alternatives. I stopped
using my ISP's NNTP service about five years ago. A news
subscription is cheap and the service is much better than what I got
with the ISPs.

--
Keith

On Jul 17, 4:43 pm, Vincent wrote:

SNIP of great info!

Most of the dedicated newsgroup providers have a trial period, so you can try
them for free before buying a membership.

I'd recommend trialing a few, and comparing their features & prices to find the
one that's best for you. I had to learn through trial & error that not all
newsgroup providers are the same, so I hope the info is helpful.


Wow! Thanks for the good information, Vincent. I appreciate you
taking the time to get it all down in writing and supplying a link. I
have been a newsgroup participant for over 10 years now, and it has
changed a lot. I still remember a group of us trying to figure how
one could upload "binaries" to a newsgroup many years ago.

We all used "deja news", and we couldn't!

As I have posted many times before, I am now using Google groups and
it works great. NO binaries, but hey, for 0.00 you don't get
everything. And since it has YEARS of retention, not days, you can
use these groups for their highest and best use - their archives.
Google groups/search creams everyone else on this.

There used to be some binary replayer services around, but I think
they are almost all gone now as well. I am thinking that there will
be a time in the future where newsgroups will be considered such a
special interest item that if you don't have access beyond your ISP
you won't have any at all.

I think the good news is that I didn't realize that ng access has
gotten as cheap as it has. Unlike some, my DSL service was supposed
to include ng acess, but me and the Phillipino tech support never got
it to work. After about 5 - 6 tries, I gave up and that's when I went
to GG.

Again, thanks for the heads up.

Robert

wrote:
On Jul 17, 4:43 pm, Vincent wrote:

SNIP of great info!

Most of the dedicated newsgroup providers have a trial period, so
you can try them for free before buying a membership.

I'd recommend trialing a few, and comparing their features & prices
to find the one that's best for you. I had to learn through trial &
error that not all newsgroup providers are the same, so I hope the
info is helpful.


Wow! Thanks for the good information, Vincent. I appreciate you
taking the time to get it all down in writing and supplying a link.
I
have been a newsgroup participant for over 10 years now, and it has
changed a lot. I still remember a group of us trying to figure how
one could upload "binaries" to a newsgroup many years ago.

We all used "deja news", and we couldn't!

As I have posted many times before, I am now using Google groups and
it works great. NO binaries, but hey, for 0.00 you don't get
everything. And since it has YEARS of retention, not days, you can
use these groups for their highest and best use - their archives.
Google groups/search creams everyone else on this.

Google Groups _is_ deja news--go to http://www.dejanews.com and see
where you end up. Since it started out as an archive of _all_
non-binary USENET posts (except those marked x-no-archive and those
the original poster has asked to be removed) retention is a non-issue.

Personally I find the Web interface very clumsy compared to a
dedicated newsreader.

There used to be some binary replayer services around, but I think
they are almost all gone now as well. I am thinking that there will
be a time in the future where newsgroups will be considered such a
special interest item that if you don't have access beyond your ISP
you won't have any at all.

I think the good news is that I didn't realize that ng access has
gotten as cheap as it has. Unlike some, my DSL service was supposed
to include ng acess, but me and the Phillipino tech support never
got
it to work. After about 5 - 6 tries, I gave up and that's when I
went
to GG.

Again, thanks for the heads up.

Robert

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

,
Vincent wrote:

Usenet has changed considerably since the late 1980's... more newsgroups, more
content, larger files, etc... and most ISPs & free resources do not want to
invest in the equipment

Jack Stein said..
I'd bet byte for byte the equipment is far cheaper than it used to
be. Heck, I'm sitting here with over 550 GIGS of hard drive storage
myself,and I don't have millions of users paying $50/month for
service.
..
krw wrote:
I don't remember the numbers, but your 550GB drive is likely enough
for an hour's complete Usenet feed. The amount of data is truly
massive.

Well, in the 80's, my IBM PCxt cost $4000 and had a 10 MEGABYTE hard
drive, the biggest HD around. For less than a $1000 I have a PC with
over 500 GIGABYTES in hard drive storage. I can tell you for sure,
Comcast can afford enough storage for WEEKS of usenet without blinking
an eye. Heck, for FREE google stores years of usenet crap without
blinking an eye.

I'm not aware of any newsgroup services charging $50 month, and most of the
services I'm familiar with are inexpensive.

One of mine is $8/mo and the other is (now, I've heard,) $16/yr.
It's not a big deal.

It's a big deal to the millions of people that get it free now via
Comcast. Most of those don't use it, and a lot less will use it if they
have to pay even $1.00 for the service from a 3rd party.

Right. Usenet has always been a loser for the ISPs. It's not
really enough of their business to warrant the expense.

Probably true, but do you know how much Comcast will save by dropping
the Binary ALT groups from their Giganews contract? Do you even know
how much Comcast pays Giganews for there complete service? I don't know
either, but I bet if just Verizon and Comcast dropped all newsgroup
services, most or ALL of the newsgroup providers would disappear.

While I hope it's not the case, I have a feeling that ISPs will begin to
discontinue their newsgroup services in light of the decisions made by
Roadrunner, Verizon, AT&T, etc.

They will, but as you point out, there are alternatives. I stopped
using my ISP's NNTP service about five years ago. A news
subscription is cheap and the service is much better than what I got
with the ISPs.

As I just pointed out, when/if the major ISP's quit carrying newsgroups
altogether, you can forgetaboutit, there will be no usenet worth
subscribing to, and your favorite independent news providers will be
history. As it stands today, Comcast still provides Giganews FREE to
all subscribers, including all Binary groups. The fact Verizon
supposedly dropped all the binary groups needs to hurt Verizon, who is
currently in major competition with Comcast. If no one complains, and
no one switches ISP's as a result, then, my guess is Comcast will likely
follow suit, and binary groups will be dead and gone. If they drop
newsgroups altogether, then newsgroups will be dead as Fidonet, as will
most of the independent newsgroup providers like Giganews.

--
Jack
http://jbstein.com

Jack Stein wrote:
,
Vincent wrote:

Usenet has changed considerably since the late 1980's... more
newsgroups, more content, larger files, etc... and most ISPs &
free resources do not want to invest in the equipment

Jack Stein said..
I'd bet byte for byte the equipment is far cheaper than it used
to
be. Heck, I'm sitting here with over 550 GIGS of hard drive
storage
myself,and I don't have millions of users paying $50/month for
service.
.
krw wrote:
I don't remember the numbers, but your 550GB drive is likely enough
for an hour's complete Usenet feed. The amount of data is truly
massive.

Well, in the 80's, my IBM PCxt cost $4000 and had a 10 MEGABYTE hard
drive, the biggest HD around. For less than a $1000 I have a PC
with
over 500 GIGABYTES in hard drive storage. I can tell you for sure,
Comcast can afford enough storage for WEEKS of usenet without
blinking
an eye. Heck, for FREE google stores years of usenet crap without
blinking an eye.

Actually it's for advertising revenue, not "for free", and they don't
store binaries.

Can your PC with 500 GIGABYTES in hard drive storage deliver up
binaries fast enough to satisfy a large number of simultaneous users?

I'm not aware of any newsgroup services charging $50 month, and
most of the services I'm familiar with are inexpensive.

One of mine is $8/mo and the other is (now, I've heard,) $16/yr.
It's not a big deal.

It's a big deal to the millions of people that get it free now via
Comcast. Most of those don't use it, and a lot less will use it if
they
have to pay even $1.00 for the service from a 3rd party.

Right. Usenet has always been a loser for the ISPs. It's not
really enough of their business to warrant the expense.

Probably true, but do you know how much Comcast will save by
dropping
the Binary ALT groups from their Giganews contract? Do you even
know
how much Comcast pays Giganews for there complete service? I don't
know
either, but I bet if just Verizon and Comcast dropped all newsgroup
services, most or ALL of the newsgroup providers would disappear.

Don't bet on it. USENET was around long before Verizon or Comcast.

While I hope it's not the case, I have a feeling that ISPs will
begin to discontinue their newsgroup services in light of the
decisions made by Roadrunner, Verizon, AT&T, etc.

They will, but as you point out, there are alternatives. I stopped
using my ISP's NNTP service about five years ago. A news
subscription is cheap and the service is much better than what I
got
with the ISPs.

As I just pointed out, when/if the major ISP's quit carrying
newsgroups
altogether, you can forgetaboutit, there will be no usenet worth
subscribing to, and your favorite independent news providers will be
history. As it stands today, Comcast still provides Giganews FREE
to
all subscribers, including all Binary groups. The fact Verizon
supposedly dropped all the binary groups needs to hurt Verizon, who
is
currently in major competition with Comcast. If no one complains,
and
no one switches ISP's as a result, then, my guess is Comcast will
likely
follow suit, and binary groups will be dead and gone. If they drop
newsgroups altogether, then newsgroups will be dead as Fidonet, as
will
most of the independent newsgroup providers like Giganews.

Why will the independents be dead?

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

J. Clarke wrote:
Jack said:
over 500 GIGABYTES in hard drive storage. I can tell you for sure,
Comcast can afford enough storage for WEEKS of usenet without
blinking an eye. Heck, for FREE google stores years of usenet crap without
blinking an eye.

Actually it's for advertising revenue, not "for free", and they don't
store binaries.

So are you saying Comcast and Verizon will drop Usenet because they
can't afford the storage?

Can your PC with 500 GIGABYTES in hard drive storage deliver up
binaries fast enough to satisfy a large number of simultaneous users?

No, but Comcast can, and that is what they sell, and the large graphics
transported is the reason high speed providers exist. Storage of Usenet
is a non-issue to companies like Verizon and Comcast.

Usenet has always been a loser for the ISPs. It's not
really enough of their business to warrant the expense.

Probably true, but do you know how much Comcast will save by
dropping the Binary ALT groups from their Giganews contract? Do you even
know how much Comcast pays Giganews for there complete service? I don't
know either, but I bet if just Verizon and Comcast dropped all newsgroup
services, most or ALL of the newsgroup providers would disappear.

Don't bet on it. USENET was around long before Verizon or Comcast.

Well, Verizon and Comcast was AT&T and they have been around longer than
Usenet, but so what? If the big high speed providers like Verizon and
Comcast drop all the binary groups, the binary groups will be as dead as
Usenet was before Usenet was accessible to the general public.

Why will the independents be dead?

Because not enough people will care enough to support them. My guess is
Giganews gets a ton more money from Comcast than all the individual
subscriptions combined. They will likely be the first to fall if the
big ISP's drop Usenet, and most of the rest will be gone right behind
them due to lack of interest. If only Verizon drops all binary groups,
their will be a huge dent to the alt binary groups to the point that
MOST if not all the binary groups will disappear, even though Comcast
still carries them.

As it stands, although a very large majority of internet users have
almost instant, free access to the newsgroups, only a very small
percentage take advantage of it. My guess is a significant percentage of
those folks will not go to the bother of actively searching out an
independent provider that they have to send extra money to get the
service. Some will of course, but will that be enough to sustain the
independent providers, or even Usenet itself?

Regardless of how it goes, I feel confident storage of Usenet is a
non-issue as the price of storage has gone through the floor years ago,
and is still falling at an amazing rate.
--
Jack
http://jbstein.com

On Sun, 20 Jul 2008 12:22:46 -0400, Jack Stein wrote:

snip
So are you saying Comcast and Verizon will drop Usenet because they
can't afford the storage?
snip

My take is that affording it is not the issue, but return on investment/labor..

When I'm in a group of folks talking about "news groups", they all think I'm
talking about browser based "forums"...
I doubt that a very large percentage of ISP customers even KNOW that Usenet even
exists..

If I ran an ISP, I'd look at what it costs in equipment/labor/support/etc. and
probably drop it or, as Comcast did, farm it out..


mac

Please remove splinters before emailing

On Thu, 17 Jul 2008 09:59:43 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Jul 17, 10:32 am, mac davis wrote:

My ISP doesn't provide ANY newsgroups, so I went with APN last year on their 90
day trial and switched to the paid plan within a few weeks to get more gigs..
YMWV

Mac- what is APN?

Robert

http://www.forteinc.com/apn/index.php

I recommend it.. lots of really nice features, especially the email notification
thing..


mac

Please remove splinters before emailing

mac davis wrote in
:

On Sun, 20 Jul 2008 12:22:46 -0400, Jack Stein
wrote:

snip
So are you saying Comcast and Verizon will drop Usenet because they
can't afford the storage?
snip

My take is that affording it is not the issue, but return on
investment/labor..

When I'm in a group of folks talking about "news groups", they all
think I'm talking about browser based "forums"...
I doubt that a very large percentage of ISP customers even KNOW that
Usenet even exists..

If I ran an ISP, I'd look at what it costs in
equipment/labor/support/etc. and probably drop it or, as Comcast did,
farm it out..

mac

Verizon cut way down on their usenet. As I understood it, it was mainly
a one-man job, ossibly only part-time, but that may just show how little
I know about the nuts and bolts of the job. Now with more than 90% of
storage requirements and to 98% of administration eliminated, it almost
certainly is only a one man part-time job.

Still, I do not expect Verizon to keep usenet all that much longer,
especially not if I have underestimated the manpower required.

--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

"mac davis" wrote

I doubt that a very large percentage of ISP customers even KNOW that
Usenet even
exists..

Customer service at comcast doesn't know what I am talking about if I say
"newsgroups".

Jack Stein wrote:
J. Clarke wrote:
Jack said:
over 500 GIGABYTES in hard drive storage. I can tell you for
sure,
Comcast can afford enough storage for WEEKS of usenet without
blinking an eye. Heck, for FREE google stores years of usenet
crap
without blinking an eye.

Actually it's for advertising revenue, not "for free", and they
don't
store binaries.

So are you saying Comcast and Verizon will drop Usenet because they
can't afford the storage?

No, because by dropping USENET they can reduce both their
administrative and hardware support costs with minimal loss of income.

Can your PC with 500 GIGABYTES in hard drive storage deliver up
binaries fast enough to satisfy a large number of simultaneous
users?

No, but Comcast can, and that is what they sell, and the large
graphics transported is the reason high speed providers exist.
Storage of Usenet is a non-issue to companies like Verizon and
Comcast.

So what is the relevance of your PC? You seem to be laboring under
the misconception that serving up large volumes of stored binaries is
just a matter of sticking a consumer drive in a machine.

Usenet has always been a loser for the ISPs. It's not
really enough of their business to warrant the expense.

Probably true, but do you know how much Comcast will save by
dropping the Binary ALT groups from their Giganews contract? Do
you even know how much Comcast pays Giganews for there complete
service? I don't know either, but I bet if just Verizon and
Comcast dropped all newsgroup services, most or ALL of the
newsgroup providers would disappear.

Don't bet on it. USENET was around long before Verizon or Comcast.

Well, Verizon and Comcast was AT&T and they have been around longer
than Usenet, but so what?

Comcast was AT&T? Sorry, but Comcast is a cable television company
and they have never been a part of AT&T.

In any case, USENET has never been dependent on any particular service
provider, not even the Internet as a whole.

If the big high speed providers like
Verizon and Comcast drop all the binary groups, the binary groups
will be as dead as Usenet was before Usenet was accessible to the
general public.

Why will the independents be dead?

Because not enough people will care enough to support them.

Note that there are free servers out there.

My guess
is Giganews gets a ton more money from Comcast than all the
individual
subscriptions combined.

When you know for sure get back to us.

They will likely be the first to fall if the
big ISP's drop Usenet, and most of the rest will be gone right
behind
them due to lack of interest. If only Verizon drops all binary
groups, their will be a huge dent to the alt binary groups to the
point that MOST if not all the binary groups will disappear, even
though Comcast still carries them.

This may come as a shock to you but neither Verizon nor Comcast is the
world.

As it stands, although a very large majority of internet users have
almost instant, free access to the newsgroups, only a very small
percentage take advantage of it. My guess is a significant
percentage
of those folks will not go to the bother of actively searching out
an
independent provider that they have to send extra money to get the
service. Some will of course, but will that be enough to sustain
the
independent providers, or even Usenet itself?

Regardless of how it goes, I feel confident storage of Usenet is a
non-issue as the price of storage has gone through the floor years
ago, and is still falling at an amazing rate.

Says the guy who has never seen a server farm.

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

Jack Stein writes:

So are you saying Comcast and Verizon will drop Usenet because they
can't afford the storage?

Don't forget the labor and maintenance.
Anything they can do yo save pennies.