Wes Stewart writes:
|
|Here, it's "your." Here's "your" weather report, etc. Ain't mine. I is just
|watching.

And during "my" weather report I might learn that I'm in for some
shower "activity."

Yes. And they're telling you what the "tempachur" is going to be, during the
"twenny-four" hours coming up.

Charlie Self

http://hometown.aol.com/charliediy/m.../business.html

JOAT writes:


Used to be, and probably still is, one of the most dangerous things
in the military, was an 01 with a pen. Give 'em something to write, and
they want to show off their education. They'd make it as verbose as
possible, and use the biggest words they can look up. Problem was,
nobody could understand what they were trying to say. We could normally
chop 2-3 pages down to a paragraph, usually a short paragraph at that,
and get the point across.

One of the hardest things for most college graduates to learn is that long
words don't do the job if short words can be substituted. It was less difficult
for me because I worked as a copywriter in an ad agency before going to
college.

But, then, I was never an 01. Got to E4 and left.

The military used the K.I.S.S. principle in writing. Keep It
Simple Stupid. Most people read at an 8th grade level; yes, even the
college grads. Write at an 8th grade level, and you get it across to
everyone - well, there's always that certain percentage that doesn't get
anything. Write at a higher level, and a good percentage of your
readers won't get it.

Not just the military.

Charlie Self

http://hometown.aol.com/charliediy/m.../business.html

Worse yet is the nurse in the hospital who says, "It's time for our shot
now." Our shot?

Glen

"Kevin P. Fleming" wrote in message
news:y8EHb.31759$gN.7508@fed1read05...
LRod wrote:

But among my top annoyances is the misuse of your/you're, as well as
their/there/they're.

And here's another one (seen mostly on TV DIY shows lately): use of the
word "my" in place of "the"...

"I'm going to use my table saw now to cut this..."
"I'll add my turkey now to the pot..."
"I'll go over to my oven now and check the temperature..."

In the first place, in exactly ZERO of these occurrences are the objects
in question actually owned by the speaker, so the use of "my" is
actually incorrect. In spite of that, did we really think they were
going to add "someone else's" turkey to the pot? Or they were going to
use "someone else's" table saw?

This has unfortunately spread into common usage as well; my sister (over
30 years old) frequently says things like:

"I like to have my orange juice with breakfast"
"I'm going to Starbucks to get my drink"

Well, like, you know, DUH, of course it's YOUR orange juice, it came out
of YOUR refrigerator :-)

In article ,
Charlie Self wrote:
JOAT writes:


Used to be, and probably still is, one of the most dangerous things
in the military, was an 01 with a pen. Give 'em something to write, and
they want to show off their education. They'd make it as verbose as
possible, and use the biggest words they can look up. Problem was,
nobody could understand what they were trying to say. We could normally
chop 2-3 pages down to a paragraph, usually a short paragraph at that,
and get the point across.

One of the hardest things for most college graduates to learn is that long
words don't do the job if short words can be substituted. It was less difficult
for me because I worked as a copywriter in an ad agency before going to
college.

In other words, "eschew obfuscation", correct? muffled giggle

Robert Bonomi replies:


One of the hardest things for most college graduates to learn is that long
words don't do the job if short words can be substituted. It was less
difficult
for me because I worked as a copywriter in an ad agency before going to
college.

In other words, "eschew obfuscation", correct? muffled giggle

Not at the ad agency. There, as in all marketing, it was "obfuscate with
clarity."

Charlie Self

http://hometown.aol.com/charliediy/m.../business.html

On 28 Dec 2003 06:58:17 GMT, otforme (Charlie Self)
wrote:

Possibly. I do wonder if anyone, anywhere in the English speaking world,
bothers to teach the difference between plurals and possessives any more.

Amazon UK's #1 bestseller this Christmas was the book
"Eats, Shoots & Leaves:
The Zero Tolerance Approach to Punctuation "
http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/1861976127/codesmiths

I don't think it's available from Amazon US

--
Klein bottle for rent. Apply within.

On Fri, 26 Dec 2003 14:02:44 GMT, "Bob Davis"
wrote:

Does anyone own or use one of these optical center punches?

They're great - if you need one. Work really well for toolroom
metalwork, but I've never needed to work wood to that accuracy.
--
Klein bottle for rent. Apply within.

On Sun 28 Dec 2003 12:25:55p, otforme (Charlie Self)
wrote in :

On this topic though, I still can't decide how to properly handle
things like "He got straight A's" or similar. Gut says apostrophe for
pluralization is *always* wrong, but "He got straight As" just doesn't
work either. Best avoided as much as possible.

Apostrophe is wrong. The second choice may look wrong but it's right.


Yeah, it's wrong but I think we might be watching the language change right
before our eyes, like "beg the question" did back in the last century. :-)

At work, we often discuss things that have acronym names, like the three
four S, spelled 34S. And we have the thirty-four; 34. In emails, it's a lot
clearer to use apostrophes when we have plural of the 34. "Let's get one
34s out to customer B and three 34's to customer C." is a lot less
confusing than "We need one 34s for customer B and two 34s for customer C."
With acronyms being used so much, we've taken to using apostrophes just so
we can get the message across quickly and I think that's happening in a lot
more places than ours. In this case it might be a case of the needs of the
language changing more than laziness.

Dan

Norman D. Crow wrote:

snippage

Very cute with the *threw* Bob. Here's something else to throw some more mud
in the mix, AND drive a spell checker crazy.

Aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at Cambrigde Uinervtisy, it deossn't mttaer in
waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoatnt tihng is taht the
frist and lsat ltteer be at the rghit pclae.
The rset can be a total mses and you can sitil raed it wouthit a porbelm.
Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but
the wrod as a wlohe.

Thnaks.

Nahmie


Very interesting! :-)

LegMan (remove 999 for eMail)

On 29 Dec 2003 08:54:13 GMT, otforme (Charlie Self)
brought forth from the murky depths:

Should be better now. Where that came from, I have no idea, except that the
set-up seems to add a return every time I change the quote, whether *I* add a
return or not.

Charlie Self

http://hometown.aol.com/charliediy/m.../business.html

Ayup, that fixed 'er.


-
Yea, though I walk through the valley of Minwax, I shall stain no Cherry.
http://diversify.com

On 29 Dec 2003 08:57:52 GMT, otforme (Charlie Self)
brought forth from the murky depths:

Wes Stewart writes:
|
|Here, it's "your." Here's "your" weather report, etc. Ain't mine. I is just
|watching.

And during "my" weather report I might learn that I'm in for some
shower "activity."

Yes. And they're telling you what the "tempachur" is going to be, during the
"twenny-four" hours coming up.

No, they'll say "There's many reasons why we are going to try and
tell you what the tempachur is going to be, during the twenny-four
hours coming up, y'know?"

(I'll bet that would have gone PSA over 80% of heads here if we
hadn't recently discussed it.)


-
Yea, though I walk through the valley of Minwax, I shall stain no Cherry.
http://diversify.com

Dan wrote...
On Sun 28 Dec 2003 12:25:55p, otforme (Charlie Self)
wrote in :

On this topic though, I still can't decide how to properly handle
things like "He got straight A's" or similar. Gut says apostrophe for
pluralization is *always* wrong, but "He got straight As" just doesn't
work either. Best avoided as much as possible.

Apostrophe is wrong. The second choice may look wrong but it's right.

Yeah, it's wrong but

No, it's not wrong. The apostrophe is fine in examples like Sylvan's
"straight A's."

Jim

It's high school English content in Ontario. At least for now. Not that
I am any example.

John

Charlie Self wrote:

Possibly. I do wonder if anyone, anywhere in the English speaking world,
bothers to teach the difference between plurals and possessives any more.

On Mon, 29 Dec 2003 16:14:02 +0000, Andy Dingley
brought forth from the murky depths:

On 28 Dec 2003 06:58:17 GMT, otforme (Charlie Self)
wrote:

Possibly. I do wonder if anyone, anywhere in the English speaking world,
bothers to teach the difference between plurals and possessives any more.

Amazon UK's #1 bestseller this Christmas was the book
"Eats, Shoots & Leaves:
The Zero Tolerance Approach to Punctuation "
http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/1861976127/codesmiths

I don't think it's available from Amazon US

That's OK. If they can screw up their title, the rest is probably
hosed, too. s/b either "Eats Shoots & Leaves" (as a koala might)
or "Eats, Shoots, & Leaves".


-
Yea, though I walk through the valley of Minwax, I shall stain no Cherry.
http://diversify.com

On Mon 29 Dec 2003 11:47:11a, Jim Wilson wrote in
k.net:

No, it's not wrong. The apostrophe is fine in examples like Sylvan's
"straight A's."

There, see? They changed it while I wasn't looking again! In high school I
was told in no uncertain terms, it's straight As, not A's, it's SATs, not
SAT's, and now here's you, and this guy:
http://newark.rutgers.edu/~jlynch/Writing/a.html

Ya take your eyes off the grammar book for a measly ten or twenty years and
look what happens.
:-)

Dan wrote...
On Mon 29 Dec 2003 11:47:11a, Jim Wilson wrote in
k.net:

There, see? They changed it while I wasn't looking again! In high school I
was told in no uncertain terms, it's straight As, not A's, it's SATs, not
SAT's, and now here's you, and this guy:
http://newark.rutgers.edu/~jlynch/Writing/a.html

Ya take your eyes off the grammar book for a measly ten or twenty years and
look what happens.
:-)

(G) So true, so often! I don't know whether this one has really changed,
but your point is well taken. This particular rule, for as long as I can
remember, has been that the apostrophe is used when needed to prevent
confusion. So it's in the I's and A's, but not necessarily in the SATs.

Of course, Jack Lynch's "house style" is the best answer. Accordingly,
SAT's and 1960's -- which Mr. Lynch abhors -- are fine by some
authorities and are optional, if not preferred, according to others.

To quote Mr. Lynch again, "The so-called rules of English grammar and
style were not spoken by a burning bush; they're just guidelines about
what's likely to be effective. If you learn to treat them that way,
you'll live a happier life." Sage advice, I think.

Jim

Mon, Dec 29, 2003, 12:56pm (EST+5)
(Robert=A0Bonomi) unindemnified viva voce:
In other words, "eschew obfuscation", correct? =A0 =A0 muffled giggle

Sonorously.

Yer're not a @#$%in' lawyer, are you?

JOAT
Success consists of going from failure to failure without loss of
enthusiasm.
- Sir Winston Churchill

Life just ain't life without good music. - JOAT
Web Page Update 29 Dec 2003.
Some tunes I like.
http://community-2.webtv.net/Jakofal...OMETUNESILIKE/

In article ,
otforme (Charlie Self) wrote:

Possibly. I do wonder if anyone, anywhere in the English speaking world,

OK, I've had a question rattling around in my noggin' (note proper use
of an apostrophe to indicate a missing letter) for quite some time now...

At what point did we U.S.-ians and Canady-ites lose the Brit accent?
Australia still has theirs, some folks in India still have theirs.
What/who influenced the changeover to American English and accent versus
the Brittish (Proper?) English and accent? Did the New World-born and
raised colonists of, say 1776, sound American or Brittish? When did the
transition take place and over how long a period of time?

Please, please, will someone answer my queries - the rattling is tooo
damn loud and is driving me crazy! Crazy I tell ya, CRAZY!

--
Owen Lowe and his Fly-by-Night Copper Company
Offering a shim for the Porter-Cable 557 type 2 fence design.
http://www.flybynightcoppercompany.com
http://www.easystreet.com/~onlnlowe/index.html

Owen Lowe asks:

At what point did we U.S.-ians and Canady-ites lose the Brit accent?
Australia still has theirs, some folks in India still have theirs.
What/who influenced the changeover to American English and accent versus
the Brittish (Proper?) English and accent? Did the New World-born and
raised colonists of, say 1776, sound American or Brittish? When did the
transition take place and over how long a period of time?

Please, please, will someone answer my queries - the rattling is tooo
damn loud and is driving me crazy! Crazy I tell ya, CRAZY!

Pebbles? Tinnitus? I can tell you there are times when the latter can come
close to really driving you crazy.

IIRC, my readings in history indicate that the U.S. colonial accent already
differed from that in Britain. In other words, probably major changes had taken
place by 1700, possibly even earlier, and for whatever reason, those changes
were noticeable on both sides.

Now, we await the reactions from Oz because you say they retain a Pommy accent.

Charlie Self

http://hometown.aol.com/charliediy/m.../business.html

On Mon, 29 Dec 2003 22:45:04 -0800, Fly-by-Night CC
wrote:

In article ,
otforme (Charlie Self) wrote:

Possibly. I do wonder if anyone, anywhere in the English speaking world,

OK, I've had a question rattling around in my noggin' (note proper use
of an apostrophe to indicate a missing letter) for quite some time now...

At what point did we U.S.-ians and Canady-ites lose the Brit accent?
Australia still has theirs, some folks in India still have theirs.
What/who influenced the changeover to American English and accent versus
the Brittish (Proper?) English and accent? Did the New World-born and
raised colonists of, say 1776, sound American or Brittish? When did the
transition take place and over how long a period of time?

Please, please, will someone answer my queries - the rattling is tooo
damn loud and is driving me crazy! Crazy I tell ya, CRAZY!

A couple of points:

I recall reading somewhere that the change actually occurred in
Britain around the 18th Century. There was supposedly a fashion
adopted of stylized speech, which became permanent and the genesis of
today's Brit accent, all of which, of course happened subsequent to
the major migration to "the colonies." Consequently, the accent heard
in New England is allegedly closer to the British way of speaking that
existed in the 17th Century than is heard there now.

Oz was settled in the late 18th Century and therefore took with them
the later version of the British accent.

If the preceding is true, it's probably more accurate to say that the
Brits *gained* an accent, rather than we lost one.

I also seem to remember that the accents found deep in the Appalachins
are supposedly very similar to the Scots/Irish English (which
presumably was unaffected by the "fashion change") due to the
proponderence of Scots/Irish that settled the area.

The problem with all of that is how did we get such regionalized
accents in the States and how did so much of Canada get nearly the
same accent as that of our upper midwest (MN, WI, MI)? And how is it
that nearly all of Canada has roughly the same accent and we in the
States have at least four very distinct ones? (New England, Southern,
Upper Midwest, General American)

And of course, North Carolina Southern is very different from Georgia
Southern which is quite different from Coonass Louisiana Southern.

Ah, what a subject!

LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net

Evolution.

Which depends on the gene pool. Thus the influx of Scandinavians to the
upper Midwest US and prairie provinces caused pronunciation and rhythm
changes which matched their original tongue. One of the charming, (but
vanishing) manifestations among our Finn population is the lack of
prepositions, resulting in "we go Green Bay watch the Packers."

Areas of less immigration, such as the hollars of Appalachia, retain basic
characteristics, as noted. Although it was longer ago than I care to
recount, I can recall areas in the prairie provinces and in Alaska where I
was fortunate to be able to speak Ukrainian or Russian, even though the
population was second generation and beyond.

Increase the current in the pool, and you'll move toward "standard " speech,
which is a result of mass communication. It's great reading about the
French Academy trying to stamp out neologisms from all the Hollywood movies.

"The French don't care what they do, actually, as long as they pronounce it
correctly."

Then there are survival adaptations which favor special dialect or language.
Think of Quebec, or the locker-room of an NBA team.

"LRod" wrote in message
...

The problem with all of that is how did we get such regionalized
accents in the States and how did so much of Canada get nearly the
same accent as that of our upper midwest (MN, WI, MI)? And how is it
that nearly all of Canada has roughly the same accent and we in the
States have at least four very distinct ones? (New England, Southern,
Upper Midwest, General American)

And of course, North Carolina Southern is very different from Georgia
Southern which is quite different from Coonass Louisiana Southern.

Ah, what a subject!

On Mon, 29 Dec 2003 22:45:04 -0800, Fly-by-Night CC
wrote:

At what point did we U.S.-ians and Canady-ites lose the Brit accent?

They didn't. Seventeenth century English travelled to New England and
stayed their, spelling, pronunciation and all. Then England changed.

From the '60s onwards, RP (received pronunciation) has gradually
disappeared from the UK. Brian Perkins and Alastair Cooke being the
last radio bastions of it - Brian Sewell is a caricature of it.
Regional accents have also toned down, with increased communications
between the regions. About the only widespread and locally distinctive
accents left in England are Geordie and Brummie - everything else is
diluted beyond recognition.

Now kids spend so much time watching cheap imported TV that they speak
a vile concoction of Sydney valley-girl that's unintelligible to
anyone over 30.

Australia still has theirs,

Australia speaks a variant of Dickensian Convict, with that weird
rising inflection at the end of every sentence, you know ?


--
Klein bottle for rent. Apply within.

There is a principle in linguistics, simply stated, that languages tend to
differentiate as they are isolated. Since the colonists were separated from
their English speaking cousins across the pond there tended to be a
differentiation in the pronunciation. This is seen in other languages as
well, re Old World Spanish, with the lisp, and New World Spanish without the
lisp)

Interestingly enough, there is a secondary principle which states that if a
language group is so isolated so that it is not touched by other linguistic
influences, the language can tend to become static. The deep dialect in
some areas of Tennessee, for example, is the closest surviving remmnant to
Elizabethan English. It is one of the few areas where words such as neer
(as in neer do well), nary, and poke (rather than a bag or a sack) are still
in common usage. This dialect has been preserved in the more isolated
regions where until fairly recently there was little or no outside the area
contact, and now it is generally used primarily by old timers. There are
several projects underway by several universities to record and save the
speech patterns for future study.

Glen


"Fly-by-Night CC" wrote in message
news
In article ,
otforme (Charlie Self) wrote:

Possibly. I do wonder if anyone, anywhere in the English speaking world,

OK, I've had a question rattling around in my noggin' (note proper use
of an apostrophe to indicate a missing letter) for quite some time now...

At what point did we U.S.-ians and Canady-ites lose the Brit accent?
Australia still has theirs, some folks in India still have theirs.
What/who influenced the changeover to American English and accent versus
the Brittish (Proper?) English and accent? Did the New World-born and
raised colonists of, say 1776, sound American or Brittish? When did the
transition take place and over how long a period of time?

Please, please, will someone answer my queries - the rattling is tooo
damn loud and is driving me crazy! Crazy I tell ya, CRAZY!

--
Owen Lowe and his Fly-by-Night Copper Company
Offering a shim for the Porter-Cable 557 type 2 fence design.
http://www.flybynightcoppercompany.com
http://www.easystreet.com/~onlnlowe/index.html

On Tue, 30 Dec 2003 07:17:05 -0500, "George"
wrote:


Although it was longer ago than I care to recount, I can recall areas in the
prairie provinces and in Alaska where I was fortunate to be able to speak
Ukrainian or Russian, even though the population was second generation
and beyond.

Ukie boy, eh? My wife is full blooded Ukrainian and which is her
native language, although she speaks English utterly unaccented (well,
except for the Canadian, eh) and fully fluently. She's from the
Niagara Peninsula, which has its own enclave of Ukrainians in addition
to the ones out west.

Then there are survival adaptations which favor special dialect or language.
Think of Quebec, or the locker-room of an NBA team.

Heh, heh.

LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net

Charlie Self wrote:

One of the hardest things for most college graduates to learn is that long
words don't do the job if short words can be substituted. It was less

Pro'ly true, but I tend to a speech that's rather more flowery than
absolutely necessary because those are the first words that come into my
head. I've always been that way. Back to first grade or so when I
complained to the principal that "her hands descended from the sky like
talons of fire and plowed furrows into my back" when some big female bully
beat me up. Or so the story goes. That's not actually a first-hand
memory, but I've heard it told so many times that I believe it. That
principal still recognizes me 25 years later too.

Yeah, I got beaten up a lot. It wasn't until I learned how to say "ain't"
once in awhile, and even drop in the occasional "we was" or "I knowed" that
I was finally, blissfully able to camouflage myself and slip beneath
everyone's radar.

It doesn't always work though. I forget. "We was comin' home yestidy, ah
believe 't were 'round midnight, and one o' them telly fone poles rised up
outta th' ground like an obelisk of darkest obsidian before us..."


--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/

Larry Jaques wrote:

That's OK. If they can screw up their title, the rest is probably
hosed, too. s/b either "Eats Shoots & Leaves" (as a koala might)
or "Eats, Shoots, & Leaves".

In English probably. It's different in other languages, and the number of
other-language people speaking and using English every day has probably
blurred this line.

Come, tira y sale. (three verbs)

Alimentos, vástagos y hojas. (three nouns)


--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/

Fly-by-Night CC wrote:

At what point did we U.S.-ians and Canady-ites lose the Brit accent?

Lot's of German and French folks in the mix for US and Canada.
That probably has some effect.

Australia still has theirs, some folks in India still have theirs.

This reminds me of a trip I once took to Saudi Arabia.
I was talking to some fellows in the hotel bar one
evening and was having a hard time placing their accent.
One minute it sound Australian, then it would seem more
like British Isles English, but not quite either. I finally
caught on that these guys were from South Africa. For an
American I usually have a pretty good ear for regional
accents, but that one threw me due mostly to lack of
exposure I guess.

What/who influenced the changeover to American English and accent versus
the Brittish (Proper?) English and accent? Did the New World-born and
raised colonists of, say 1776, sound American or Brittish? When did the
transition take place and over how long a period of time?

Remember that German was almost made the official language
of the early US. I'm sure the large non-English populations
had some effect.

Bill ranck
Blacksburg, Va.

I understand the confusion: I have a neighbor who I'd always assumed was
German, due to his accent; turns out he is from South Africa!

dave

wrote:

Fly-by-Night CC wrote:


At what point did we U.S.-ians and Canady-ites lose the Brit accent?


Lot's of German and French folks in the mix for US and Canada.
That probably has some effect.


Australia still has theirs, some folks in India still have theirs.


This reminds me of a trip I once took to Saudi Arabia.
I was talking to some fellows in the hotel bar one
evening and was having a hard time placing their accent.
One minute it sound Australian, then it would seem more
like British Isles English, but not quite either. I finally
caught on that these guys were from South Africa. For an
American I usually have a pretty good ear for regional
accents, but that one threw me due mostly to lack of
exposure I guess.


What/who influenced the changeover to American English and accent versus
the Brittish (Proper?) English and accent? Did the New World-born and
raised colonists of, say 1776, sound American or Brittish? When did the
transition take place and over how long a period of time?


Remember that German was almost made the official language
of the early US. I'm sure the large non-English populations
had some effect.

Bill ranck
Blacksburg, Va.

Didn't this group used to be about woodworking?



"Fred the Red Shirt" wrote in message
om...
LP wrote in message
. ..
On 28 Dec 2003 06:58:17 GMT, otforme (Charlie Self)
wrote:

My personal pet peeve in this area is the inappropriate use of the
word "router", as in "I'm going to router a groove in it." "Router"
is a noun and describes the tool, while "rout" is the verb and
describes the action performed with the (noun) tool.


The closer proximity of the 'r' key to the 'e' key on a standard
keyboard often leads me to mistype an 'r' after an 'e' even though
I know better. As in 'planer' instead of 'plane'. Oftent the result
is a real word so it does not stand out when proofreading or spell
checking.

--

FF

Boer - ing answer.

Gonna get you in Dutch.

"Bay Area Dave" wrote in message
m...
I understand the confusion: I have a neighbor who I'd always assumed was
German, due to his accent; turns out he is from South Africa!

dave

The English speaking countries I've lived in, besides the US, are New
Zealand, Australia and England (was married to a Staines, Mddx, girl for
some years) so my ear for English accents was sharpened, or so I thought.
Had the husband of a new acquaintance over for a holiday gathering last week
and would have sworn he was from Scotland at first listen ... turned out he
was from SA ... fooled the hell outta me!

My oldest daughter now lives in Yorkshire, but has a decidedly upper class
accent from her mother, although her fiancé has a broad Yorkshire accent
that sounds like he stepped out of a James Herriot book ... I had to be his
translator to others when they visited this past year ... he understood
everyone perfectly.

I was the best man and, as it turned out, absolutely necessary translator
for a wedding party which was comprised of a bunch of coonasses from New
Roads, Louisiana, and the brides family of Boston Jews ... talk about a
hoot! This was a culture clash of truly epic proportions.

I always though the Irish Channel area of New Orleans would lead you to
believe you were in the Bronx. And I love the accents of the women from the
Northwest USA ... used to hear them often in the days when MSFT did a lot of
their own support.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 12/29/03


wrote in message

This reminds me of a trip I once took to Saudi Arabia.
I was talking to some fellows in the hotel bar one
evening and was having a hard time placing their accent.
One minute it sound Australian, then it would seem more
like British Isles English, but not quite either. I finally
caught on that these guys were from South Africa. For an
American I usually have a pretty good ear for regional
accents, but that one threw me due mostly to lack of
exposure I guess.

"Victor De Long" wrote in message
...
Didn't this group used to be about woodworking?

Oh, shaddup!

The deep dialect in
some areas of Tennessee, for example, is the closest surviving remmnant to
Elizabethan English. It is one of the few areas where words such as neer
(as in neer do well), nary, and poke (rather than a bag or a sack) are still
in common usage. This dialect has been preserved in the more isolated
regions where until fairly recently there was little or no outside the area
contact, and now it is generally used primarily by old timers.

My wife is from the middle of West Virginia (Buchannon) and will still
sometimes slip into words like poke, nary, rise (instead of hill), etc. - she
is 45 and we moved to Pennsylvania 20 years ago BTW. Her parents used these
words more frequently and younger family members still living there also use
them more frequently.

Dave Hall

"Glen" wrote in message thlink.net...
Interestingly enough, there is a secondary principle which states that if a
language group is so isolated so that it is not touched by other linguistic
influences, the language can tend to become static. The deep dialect in
some areas of Tennessee, for example, is the closest surviving remmnant to
Elizabethan English. It is one of the few areas where words such as neer
(as in neer do well), nary, and poke (rather than a bag or a sack) are still
in common usage. This dialect has been preserved in the more isolated
regions where until fairly recently there was little or no outside the area
contact, and now it is generally used primarily by old timers. There are
several projects underway by several universities to record and save the
speech patterns for future study.

If you ever get the opportunity you should listen to a recording of
Ray Hicks telling stories. Ray was one of the finest storytellers
ever, but it took a few minutes to get used to his North Carolina
Appalachian accent. At first you might think the accent is put on but
once you catch on to it you realize that he was just not affected by
any outside influences.

When I go back to Sunfish, Kentucky, where I was born, you can tell a
remarkable difference between the accents of people born before and
after World War II. (You remember WWII, don't you? It was in all the
papers.) People younger than about 55 sound more like Dan Rather and
less like Little Jimmy Dickens.

Dick Durbin

On 30-Dec-2003, "George" wrote:

Increase the current in the pool, and you'll move toward "standard " speech,
which is a result of mass communication.

I wonder about that. There was a radio series on CBC in Canada that was called
something like "Lost and found sound", where they examined the oldest recordings
available. I listened with interest to voice recordings from the late 1800s that
sounded remarkably modern. The "generic" accent that is all across Canada and
the US (the one that allows us Kanuckistanis to infiltrate US broadcasting
without notice*) was already present. Also, my grandparents and great-grandparents,
all of whom were born before mass communication, spoke with only slight regional
accents and were already close to the modern "generic" accent. I also found
that there was one recording of a British accent that was remarkably un-British
and very much like modern N.A. English.

This makes me think that the modern accent has its roots before radio could
distribute a common speech. Also, early Hollywood preferred an American "Posh"
accent that doesn't sound like the way we speak today - they weren't spreading
the common accent or speech. Remnants of this lasted in broadcasting into the
'50s.

I'd love to find a book or other source that examines in detail the spread
and development of the various English accents 'round the globe. Someone
once suggested Bryson, but his book doesn't cover that.

Sorry for the off-topic, but this is one topic that fascinates me!

Mike

* Only once in my many travels through the US did anyone suggest from my
accent that I wasn't American. This one time, a fellow said something
like "You have an interesting accent - you're not American are you? You
sound Canadian or something" This fellow was South African!

On Tue, 30 Dec 2003 21:01:36 GMT, "Michael Daly"
wrote:


I'd love to find a book or other source that examines in detail the spread
and development of the various English accents 'round the globe. Someone
once suggested Bryson, but his book doesn't cover that.

I don't know if he has one on this subject, but Steven Pinker is a
brilliant linguist (Harvard, I believe) whose stuff is worth reading.
I caught him on Book Notes on C-SPAN one time talking about irregular
verbs and was mesmerized.

LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net

Tue, Dec 30, 2003, 12:24pm (EST+5) (Glen) claims:
snip The deep dialect in some areas of Tennessee, for example, is the
closest surviving remmnant to Elizabethan English. It is one of the few
areas where words such as neer (as in neer do well), nary, and poke
(rather than a bag or a sack) are still in common usage. This dialect
has been preserved in the more isolated regions where until fairly
recently there was little or no outside the area contact, and now it is
generally used primarily by old timers. There are several projects
underway by several universities to record and save the speech patterns
for future study.

Well, that's interesting as Hell. Don't know how the theory would
stand up tho. I didn't come from TN, and I sure couldn't be said to
have been isolated. However, I have been known to use "neer do well"
once or twice, and say "nary" and "poke" at times. I would say you
could call it "common usage". When can I expect some of those
university fellers to come by? Do you think they'll call me "old
timer"?

JOAT
Success consists of going from failure to failure without loss of
enthusiasm.
- Sir Winston Churchill

Life just ain't life without good music. - JOAT
Web Page Update 29 Dec 2003.
Some tunes I like.
http://community-2.webtv.net/Jakofal...OMETUNESILIKE/

this group is full of assholes who probably dont even own a hammer.


STEMO

(Go NY Giants They Stink, Go Anyway!!) wrote in news:2392-
:

this group is full of assholes who probably dont even own a hammer.

Can't I be both?

Okay, I've got the KING BIG DADDY of 'em all:

Irregardless. Ne?

The you're/your is also a big one for me. As is they're/their/there.

However, as a young person, I have gone through the like, you know,
language phase, okay? I just taught myself not to talk that way
anymore. I did that the same way I taught myself to use the f-word at
least 3 times every sentence in the Marine Corps. I also taught
myself to stop doing that.

Do y'all (that's a _word_, I don't care what y'all say) think it has a
lot to do with present company? Do kids (or can they) speak one way
in the chic lingo of the day, and speak to rational humans in English?

-Phil Crow