This may sound like flame bait at first, but it is a serious question.
Exactly what is everyone's problem with Craftsman table saws???

I started saving for a table say with a $500 limit in mind. After
reading back posts from this group, I looked at a Delta 36-650 at
Lowes for $498 and thought it was a pretty good option. Just for
comparison, I went to Sears and looked at their saws. One of their
saws (forget the model number) was $499 and appeared to be very solid.
Based on what I have read, I paid particular attention to the fence,
and it seemed much more solid and easier to adjust than the Delta.

Now, since I have exactly zero experience with either saw, what
exactly is the problem with Craftsman??? I have read enough of the
"they're all crap!" posts; but I would like to hear exactly why people
feel this way.

I plan to buy one of these saws (or something else in this price
range) in the next few weeks, so I would really appreciate the advice.

Thanks,
Kirk

On Wed, 12 Nov 2003 13:27:33 -0800, KirkH wrote:


I plan to buy one of these saws (or something else in this price
range) in the next few weeks, so I would really appreciate the advice.

The G0444 is in your price range, but I'm rat-holing my former cigarette
money for the G1023SL. Was almost there and SWMBO decided we needed some
more vacation money - grrrrrr

http://www.grizzly.com/products/item...010&StartRow=1

-Doug

"KirkH" wrote in message
om...
This may sound like flame bait at first, but it is a serious question.
Exactly what is everyone's problem with Craftsman table saws???
I plan to buy one of these saws (or something else in this price
range) in the next few weeks, so I would really appreciate the advice.

The nameplate? The quality of Craftsman tools can vary. Some are good
value, many are overpriced. All are made by someone else. If a particular
model is made by a reputable company and the nameplate is the only
difference, on sale, it may be a good buy. Sears has also had a reputation
for putting money into glitzy but of questionable use features.

Typically, you can get more bang for your buck at other tool shops. I've
had some Craftsman power tools. They were low end and while they were not
bad for the money, they did not compare to what I replaced them with (at a
higher price).
Ed

I have alot of Craftsman with no complaints. Other tools I bought (to
include Ryobi) wore out within a year of pretty light use, or was never
quite right to begin with. I replaced those items, including my table saw,
with Craftsman. It's a good saw, is accurate and does everything I want.
The fence locks in where I need it and is never at a diagonal or not square.
Right now I'm in the middle of having to buy a new router to replace my 14
month old Ryobi. I think the only thing on it that still works is the
motor. The lock won't lock the shaft to insert/remove bits, and the depth
adjustment engages nothing. Keeping in mind I take very good care of my
tools since I can't afford to keep replacing them, I picked the darn thing
up last night and a piece of plastic just fell out of it. Who the hell puts
plastic parts in any kind of serious tool? Guess the little Malaysian kid
who built that one was having an off day.

So, I say again, if any folks have craftsman that they really hate that
much, send it to me and I'll give 'em a good home.

George

"KirkH" wrote in message
om...
This may sound like flame bait at first, but it is a serious question.
Exactly what is everyone's problem with Craftsman table saws???

I started saving for a table say with a $500 limit in mind. After
reading back posts from this group, I looked at a Delta 36-650 at
Lowes for $498 and thought it was a pretty good option. Just for
comparison, I went to Sears and looked at their saws. One of their
saws (forget the model number) was $499 and appeared to be very solid.
Based on what I have read, I paid particular attention to the fence,
and it seemed much more solid and easier to adjust than the Delta.

Now, since I have exactly zero experience with either saw, what
exactly is the problem with Craftsman??? I have read enough of the
"they're all crap!" posts; but I would like to hear exactly why people
feel this way.

I plan to buy one of these saws (or something else in this price
range) in the next few weeks, so I would really appreciate the advice.

Thanks,
Kirk

Until yesterday I was in exactly the same position as you. So I have three
pieces of advice.

1) I found another store that had the Delta for $449. I got Lowes to agree
to sell it to me for 10% less then the other place, so I was all set to buy
it for $405, until...

2) Craftsman never puts the $495 saw on sale, but they frequently package it
with a dust catcher and router table insert for $495, and the package is
advertised (at least it was in Oct and Nov) during the week that members of
the Craftsman club can get 10% off. So, with the extras it is only $450;
though the router table is pretty crappy. So, I thought I would buy that,
until...

3) I saw a 20 years old Craftsman saw advertised. It was recently upgraded
to have a 2hp motor, pulleys, belt, fence, magnetic switch, huge on-off
switch, motor dust housing, and casters. I bought it for $250 yesterday.
The motor alone cost more than I paid. It doesn't have cast iron extensions
(thank God, because if it did, I doubt I could have gotten it into my
basement without taking it all apart), but otherwise it is worth about $900.
There is hardly a scratch on it.
You would have to be very lucky to find a buy that good, but if your budget
is tight, you ought to look around; you can probably find something used for
$150 that is almost as good as the Delta or Craftsman; some day when you
have more funds you can put a new fence and belt on it and be better than
new.
Oh, around here decent used saws sell within a day of the ad coming out, so
act fast. The first few I called on had already been sold.

Good Luck.

Wed, Nov 12, 2003, 1:27pm (EST-3) (KirkH) wants to
know:
snip I have read enough of the "they're all crap!" posts; but I would
like to hear exactly why people feel this way. snip

I think many of those people have never owned, or even used one,
and are just parroting others. I am always a bit leery when someone
says something is no good, without stating their reason(s) for saying
so.

For me, a Craftsman saw would be an upgrade. However, budget (lack
thereof), and shop space (also lack thereof), call for me sticking with
my present saw ($80 Harbor Freight), and my saw sled. They both do what
I need them to, so no prob.

But, if anyone feels the desire to present me with their Craftsman
saw, I will gladly pay the shipping.

JOAT
Of course I don't think you're a complete idiot. Some parts are
missing.

Life just ain't life without good music. - JOAT
Web Page Update 12 Nov 2003.
Some tunes I like.
http://community-2.webtv.net/Jakofal...OMETUNESILIKE/

On 12 Nov 2003 13:27:33 -0800, (KirkH) wrote:

This may sound like flame bait at first, but it is a serious question.
Exactly what is everyone's problem with Craftsman table saws???

I started saving for a table say with a $500 limit in mind. After
reading back posts from this group, I looked at a Delta 36-650 at
Lowes for $498 and thought it was a pretty good option. Just for
comparison, I went to Sears and looked at their saws. One of their
saws (forget the model number) was $499 and appeared to be very solid.
Based on what I have read, I paid particular attention to the fence,
and it seemed much more solid and easier to adjust than the Delta.

Now, since I have exactly zero experience with either saw, what
exactly is the problem with Craftsman??? I have read enough of the
"they're all crap!" posts; but I would like to hear exactly why people
feel this way.

I plan to buy one of these saws (or something else in this price
range) in the next few weeks, so I would really appreciate the advice.

Thanks,
Kirk

That's because it's plan and simple, don't waste your $500 on a
Craftsman table saw! The table saw is THE most important power tool
in the shop. If you still want to spend the the $500, get a quality
circular saw or save at least a few hundred bucks more for a Grizzly
cabinet saw. Delta, Jet, General or PM are brands to shop. Craftsman
makes a few decent mechanic hand tools, but Craftsman clamps are
crap!!!

It what is known as "me-too-ism". It's a popular thing to say and people
feel the need to fit in. No sense you getting all the flames.
"KirkH" wrote in message
om...
This may sound like flame bait at first, but it is a serious question.
Exactly what is everyone's problem with Craftsman table saws???

I started saving for a table say with a $500 limit in mind. After
reading back posts from this group, I looked at a Delta 36-650 at
Lowes for $498 and thought it was a pretty good option. Just for
comparison, I went to Sears and looked at their saws. One of their
saws (forget the model number) was $499 and appeared to be very solid.
Based on what I have read, I paid particular attention to the fence,
and it seemed much more solid and easier to adjust than the Delta.

Now, since I have exactly zero experience with either saw, what
exactly is the problem with Craftsman??? I have read enough of the
"they're all crap!" posts; but I would like to hear exactly why people
feel this way.

I plan to buy one of these saws (or something else in this price
range) in the next few weeks, so I would really appreciate the advice.

Thanks,
Kirk

Sears has never in their history been a manufacturer.

"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message
...


All are made by someone else.

KirkH wrote:
Now, since I have exactly zero experience with either saw, what
exactly is the problem with Craftsman??? I have read enough of the
"they're all crap!" posts; but I would like to hear exactly why people
feel this way.

In some cases, it's more of a 'you get what you pay for' issue.

I had a Craftsman hand-held jigsaw. I rarely used it because it
vibrated SOOO badly that it would make my hand numb after about
5 minutes...so I would do something else until the feeling came
back (20-30 minutes) and then go back to the jigsaw.
IIRC, I paid $55 for the saw in 1989. It was probably nearly as
good as every other $55 saw available at the time. I recently got
a Bosch and it is a DREAM! BUT, I paid $160 for the Bosch -- so
it is not a fair comparison. Is there a Craftsman jigsaw in the
same price range? Yes. According to the reviews by professionals,
it was not as good...but it's probably a LOT better than the
one I had.

IMO, a lot of people 'trade up' in this manner - then they remember
how much the cheapo Craftsman sucked...and how great the newer,
more expensive tool is.

That being said, it has been a long time since I've read a tool
review in a magazine in which the Craftsman tool came out on
top. However, lots of people have made lots of nice stuff with
Craftsman table saws.

I'll stop rambling now.
C

--
************************************
Chris Merrill

(remove the ZZZ to contact me)
************************************

i have written many times before about the same thing.... i own a circa 1950
craftsman table saw and it cuts like a charm. i did buy a new fence... the
rigid TS xx24 (can't remember the number) and adjusted it once, since i put it
on the table. i have had it for 3 yrs and it stays dead on. i have changed
the belt to the belt-links and i swear if dimes had smooths sides, it would
stand on edge.... as it is...i can get a penny to stand on edge.
go ahead...buy the craftsman or the rigid saw... spend the money for a good
blade and make some sawdust...

On 12 Nov 2003 13:27:33 -0800, (KirkH) wrote:

This may sound like flame bait at first, but it is a serious question.
Exactly what is everyone's problem with Craftsman table saws???

I started saving for a table say with a $500 limit in mind. After
reading back posts from this group, I looked at a Delta 36-650 at
Lowes for $498 and thought it was a pretty good option. Just for
comparison, I went to Sears and looked at their saws. One of their
saws (forget the model number) was $499 and appeared to be very solid.
Based on what I have read, I paid particular attention to the fence,
and it seemed much more solid and easier to adjust than the Delta.

Now, since I have exactly zero experience with either saw, what
exactly is the problem with Craftsman??? I have read enough of the
"they're all crap!" posts; but I would like to hear exactly why people
feel this way.

I plan to buy one of these saws (or something else in this price
range) in the next few weeks, so I would really appreciate the advice.

Thanks,
Kirk

Okay, I have a craftsman ts. mine is about 10 years old, and i picked
it up for about 150. came with a stand, and nice dust catching
system. no blade, no wrenches. table had no pitting, fence needed
attention, but that wasn't too bad. after aligning everything up to
..001, and some minor upgrades (PALS, link belt/pulleys), it cuts well.
very well. while true that i'm not going to be able to push through
8/4 hardwood as fast as a uni, it still works well.

negatives on a craftsman though are readily apparent... the mitre
slot is an odd size. it's just slightly too small. which is crazy
annoying. the fence? another joke. at least if you have an older
one. the XR2424 is supposed to be good. to get mine to stay
straight, i press against the bottom rail slide, and then lock it.
usually, it's straight, as long as no shavings or wood bits get under
the rail slide. upgrading is an issue. why pay for a $300+
fence/rails when it costs more than the saw? while true that you can
take the fence with you to your next saw, it's still an issue.

the biggest issue that i have is the splitter. it stinks. you can
get an upgraded merlin splitter. but it costs almost as much as my
saw. the merlin splitter is craftsman specific, so you can't take it
to a delta or jet.

in the end, the craftsman saw is a decent saw. set it up right, and
it'll rip nice smooth edges without much fuss. but the little things,
or maybe big things depending who you talk to, add up in a hurry.

there's a post for a Craftsman TS with a billion upgrades by a Ralph J
Ramirez. may wanna contact him...

On Wed, 12 Nov 2003 21:35:43 GMT, "Doug Winterburn"
wrote:

On Wed, 12 Nov 2003 13:27:33 -0800, KirkH wrote:


I plan to buy one of these saws (or something else in this price
range) in the next few weeks, so I would really appreciate the advice.

The G0444 is in your price range, but I'm rat-holing my former cigarette
money for the G1023SL. Was almost there and SWMBO decided we needed some
more vacation money - grrrrrr

http://www.grizzly.com/products/item...010&StartRow=1

-Doug


You told her about the $ stash? That's a mistake.

I bought and ran a circa 1960's Craftsman Table saw. The unit would
never align to the miter slots. Best I got following all information
was just over 1/64th out from front of blade to the back of the blade.
This is a problem on all contractor designed saws with the trunion
hanging from the top.

The real issue was with the use of the side sheet metal doing the
holding of the blade tilt mechnism. This was the same on the newest
machines that I looked into 2+ years ago. I was given a Xmas gift at
Sears for a newer contractor saw, but after inspecting the saws on
display I realized that this was a design flaw on all these saws. The
Jet and Delta models that I looked at used an internal steal bar to
hold the angle of the blade off of 90.

I talked Dad into using this money and some of mine to get a cabinet
saw! (Yes this was a drive by gloat!!!)

Craftsman contractor saw will cut straight with a good fense as long
as all parts are adjusted correctly. To change the angle and hold it
is the problem.

Ron

On 12 Nov 2003 13:27:33 -0800, (KirkH) wrote:

This may sound like flame bait at first, but it is a serious question.
Exactly what is everyone's problem with Craftsman table saws???

I started saving for a table say with a $500 limit in mind. After
reading back posts from this group, I looked at a Delta 36-650 at
Lowes for $498 and thought it was a pretty good option. Just for
comparison, I went to Sears and looked at their saws. One of their
saws (forget the model number) was $499 and appeared to be very solid.
Based on what I have read, I paid particular attention to the fence,
and it seemed much more solid and easier to adjust than the Delta.

Now, since I have exactly zero experience with either saw, what
exactly is the problem with Craftsman??? I have read enough of the
"they're all crap!" posts; but I would like to hear exactly why people
feel this way.

I plan to buy one of these saws (or something else in this price
range) in the next few weeks, so I would really appreciate the advice.

Thanks,
Kirk

My 2 cents - I use a Craftsman saw that's around 17 years old. It's
been fine all that time and has received all the usual upgrades save
the motor. I also had a 6" Craftsman jointer of same vintage. Both
were made by Emerson.

The jointer is gone now, replace by a Delta DJ-20. The saw is still
with me, but is likely to be replaced by a Unisaw at some not far off
date. The fact that I'm willing to replace them is *not* a matter of
them being junk, but more a matter of capacity. What I build has
simply gotten beyond what they can easily do, particularly that
jointer. And the saw really struggles going through thick hardwood.
The motor is simply not up to sawing 3" maple or oak.

IMHO, the real problem is with Craftsman hand held power tools. They
paid more attention to cool styling or geewhiz features than actual
performance. And sometimes not even that. I had a jigsaw from them
that made the appropriate noises, but wasn't actually very good at the
actual severing of wood fiber. One day it simply emitted a curl of
smoke and that was it. I replaced it with a DeWalt and learned what a
jigsaw should really do. Night and day different. Same story with a
router. Lots of plastic, PITA to change bits, would stay locked at a
particular depth (self adjusting depth setting). It was replaced with
a Makita. That machine also showed me what router can and should do.

I came to think that Craftsman hand held power tools were probably
best considered to be single use items to be discarded after the job
at hand. That sounds harsh, but my experience bears this out. Now,
did I really throw them away prior to complete failure? No, but after
those two experiences, it was obvious Sears chose to make compromises
that sold lots of tools based on "macho posturing" rather than
actually doing the job, and doing it well for a long time.

I still have two Craftsman hand helds - the router and a 3/8" drill.
The router has been permanently set up to make 1/2" half blind
dovetails. The drill still works, but maybe not for long. The
bearings (sleeve) scream like a banshee when first started up. The
chuck had to be replaced along the way.

You are asking the right question!!

The name on any product means nothing, it's whats under the name that
counts. I bought a Craftsman some time ago ago and it has served me
well. I do a lot of woodworking, so this has not been a "hanager queen"
if you are familiar with the term. I bought it because it was
inexpensive. It had a cast iron table that was very flat and cast iron
wings that, once installed level, have stayed that way. I spent a lot
of time setting the saw up accurately and it has held that setup for
many years. I have made two upgrades, that have been transformational.
The original fence was a disaster, but I only paid $300 for the saw,
so did not expect much. Threw the original fence away and replaced it
with a Beissmeir (sp) that bolted right up to the saw. It made a world
of difference. Then bought a Forrestt blade and that made almost as
much difference as the fence.

Don't have alot of money, and have to make do with the best quality I
can manage within my budget. The purpose of the Craftsman part of my
saw is to turn the blade well and keep it parallel to the miter slot and
fence. This it does well. Controls are not as smooth as they could be,
but for the price, they have worked well.

Bought an Acculine dial indicator system for adjusting my jointer knives
and it came with a video on how to modify Craftsmen saws to add grease
fittings to the adjustment pivot points and same adjustment screws to
make alignment easier. Not a bad idea, but as I said, I was very
careful when I first adjusted mine, and the alignment hasn't moved in
many years. I would love to own a big Powermatic 220v cabinet saw, but
would rather have the other tools I can afford with the price
difference. For me, woodworking is just a hobby. I always try to keep
that in perspective.

You will read a lot of posts here expressing dissatisfaction with many
companies and products. Some have merit, and others are childish
tantrums. The art is in knowing the difference. I am also not very
concerned about the ego factor. I do not wear Tommy Hilfiger clothes,
because I do not know him and see no reason to advertise for him. I
drive a Dodge pickup and on the day I drove it home, I peeled the Dodge
decal off the tailgate. It looks better without it, and I don't care if
the guy behind me knows what make of truck it is or not. I have worked
for the Air Force for 34 years. When I make a flag box or shadow box
for someone in the office, that has perfectly mitered corners, no one
knows what I used to make the cut with, so it is just between me and the
saw in my garage.

Good luck, and I hope you enjoy woodworking as much as I have.

Bill

KirkH wrote:
This may sound like flame bait at first, but it is a serious question.
Exactly what is everyone's problem with Craftsman table saws???

I started saving for a table say with a $500 limit in mind. After
reading back posts from this group, I looked at a Delta 36-650 at
Lowes for $498 and thought it was a pretty good option. Just for
comparison, I went to Sears and looked at their saws. One of their
saws (forget the model number) was $499 and appeared to be very solid.
Based on what I have read, I paid particular attention to the fence,
and it seemed much more solid and easier to adjust than the Delta.

Now, since I have exactly zero experience with either saw, what
exactly is the problem with Craftsman??? I have read enough of the
"they're all crap!" posts; but I would like to hear exactly why people
feel this way.

I plan to buy one of these saws (or something else in this price
range) in the next few weeks, so I would really appreciate the advice.

Thanks,
Kirk

negatives on a craftsman though are readily apparent... the mitre
slot is an odd size. it's just slightly too small. which is crazy
annoying. the fence? another joke. at least if you have an older
one. the XR2424 is supposed to be good. to get mine to stay
straight, i press against the bottom rail slide, and then lock it.
usually, it's straight, as long as no shavings or wood bits get under
the rail slide. upgrading is an issue. why pay for a $300+
fence/rails when it costs more than the saw? while true that you can
take the fence with you to your next saw, it's still an issue.

i agree.... the fence i got was the rigid model... BUT.... since i got it from
Home Depot (more flammable material)...and after a number of times of missing
items... the manager of the store just gave me a new one and put thru the
papers that i had returned the old one....lo and behold.....3 weeks later, i
get a refund check of $165 for the *returned fence*......
and yes !!!!!!! the smaller miter channel is a bite in the ass.....EVERYTHING
has to be milled down to size..... or you can write rigid and ask for a new
miter bar and the will probably send you gratitis.....or have a nephew in law
who has great access to a metal shop (he is a mechanical engineer who works for
a fabrication shop), and ask him to have your bar stock milled down to
size......

sorry.... 2 gloats for the cost of one......

On 15 Nov 2003 01:48:14 GMT, (WARRENRN1) wrote:

....or have a nephew in law who has great access to a metal shop (he
is a mechanical engineer who works for a fabrication shop), and ask
him to have your bar stock milled down to size......

With that access to that technology, why didn't you just have him mill
the miter slots out to .755? That's what I'd prefer to do.


LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net

With that access to that technology, why didn't you just have him mill
the miter slots out to .755? That's what I'd prefer to do.

not wishing to move the beast... moved it once and as a result needed surgery
to fix a ruptured biceps tendon.... with the basic saw table being cast iron,
along with two side extensions also of cast iron, and no truck.....far easier
to have my nephew mill materials to the correct size....

LRod wrote:

On 15 Nov 2003 01:48:14 GMT, (WARRENRN1) wrote:


....or have a nephew in law who has great access to a metal shop (he
is a mechanical engineer who works for a fabrication shop), and ask
him to have your bar stock milled down to size......


With that access to that technology, why didn't you just have him mill
the miter slots out to .755? That's what I'd prefer to do.



1) Never alter the expensive/ permanent part. Doesn't matter if it's
done to perfection.

2) Oh Yes, the guys in production just love, no, we live for doing
Government work for engineers. Yeah, Right. {Long rant omitted}

It's one thing to shave 5 thousandths off a piece of bar stock, quite
another to set up a heavy assed piece of cast in a mill and open up the
slots.

Ones a favor, the others a project.


--

Mark

N.E. Ohio


Never argue with a fool, a bystander can't tell you apart. (S. Clemens,
A.K.A. Mark Twain)

When in doubt hit the throttle. It may not help but it sure ends the
suspense. (Gaz, r.moto)

On Sat, 15 Nov 2003 23:29:02 GMT, Mark
wrote:



LRod wrote:

On 15 Nov 2003 01:48:14 GMT, (WARRENRN1) wrote:


....or have a nephew in law who has great access to a metal shop (he
is a mechanical engineer who works for a fabrication shop), and ask
him to have your bar stock milled down to size......


With that access to that technology, why didn't you just have him mill
the miter slots out to .755? That's what I'd prefer to do.



1) Never alter the expensive/ permanent part. Doesn't matter if it's
done to perfection.

2) Oh Yes, the guys in production just love, no, we live for doing
Government work for engineers. Yeah, Right. {Long rant omitted}

It's one thing to shave 5 thousandths off a piece of bar stock, quite
another to set up a heavy assed piece of cast in a mill and open up the
slots.

Thanks. I wouldn't have thought that.

Ones a favor, the others a project.

Good way to put it.


LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net