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Electrical Question
Thank you in advance!
I am wiring up a 110V outlet to go on the side of my table saw outfeed extension table recently built. I would like to tap this off of the 220V outlet for the table saw, directly beneath the new bench. I know I can get 110 from this by putting the black wire on one of the 220V outlets hot post and the white wire on the neutral ...now...should the green wire (in the cord going to the new outlet) also go to the same post as the white / neutral since both are at ground potential? Steve |
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Electrical Question
Steve McDonald wrote:
Thank you in advance! I am wiring up a 110V outlet to go on the side of my table saw outfeed extension table recently built. I would like to tap this off of the 220V outlet for the table saw, directly beneath the new bench. I know I can get 110 from this by putting the black wire on one of the 220V outlets hot post and the white wire on the neutral ...now...should the green wire (in the cord going to the new outlet) also go to the same post as the white / neutral since both are at ground potential? No, it should go to the ground connection. If your 220V outlet does not have a ground wire, then make the 110V outlet a GFCI type. Bill Ranck Blacksburg, Va. |
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No, it should go to the ground connection. If your 220V outlet does not have a ground wire, then make the 110V outlet a GFCI type. I forgot, leave the green wire unconnected if you don't have a real ground connection. Do not connect it to the neutral wire. What are the ramifications of putting them together? Could I just screw the green wire to the 220v outlet's grounded case since there is no availible prong to use for this? |
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Electrical Question
wrote in message ... Steve McDonald wrote: Thank you in advance! I am wiring up a 110V outlet to go on the side of my table saw outfeed extension table recently built. I would like to tap this off of the 220V outlet for the table saw, directly beneath the new bench. I know I can get 110 from this by putting the black wire on one of the 220V outlets hot post and the white wire on the neutral ...now...should the green wire (in the cord going to the new outlet) also go to the same post as the white / neutral since both are at ground potential? No, it should go to the ground connection. If your 220V outlet does not have a ground wire, then make the 110V outlet a GFCI type. Bill Ranck Blacksburg, Va. Wrong answer. That does not keep a fault between the neutral and ground from lighting up the frame of the saw with 110v. You need to have a four conductor plug and wire, and the white wire on the 110 plug should be completely separate and isolated from the ground connections of the saw frame. The ground of the 110 should still be connected to the ground of the saw. If you want to use a GFCI, by all means, do. To be completely right, the receptacle should be wired with 4 wires, all the way to the box, with separate ground, neutral, and two hot feeds. -- Jim in NC |
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Electrical Question
Steve McDonald wrote:
No, it should go to the ground connection. If your 220V outlet does not have a ground wire, then make the 110V outlet a GFCI type. I forgot, leave the green wire unconnected if you don't have a real ground connection. Do not connect it to the neutral wire. What are the ramifications of putting them together? Could I just screw the green wire to the 220v outlet's grounded case since there is no availible prong to use for this? First, it's a code requirement that neutral and ground only be connected a *one* place, generally at the service entrance. The practical reason is that connecting them together in other places can cause ground loops and this can put voltages onto grounded metal cases. Not good. If your 220V outlet case is truly grounded, then yes you would connect the ground lead to the metal case. This might be the situation if you have metal conduit leading to the 220V outlet. You could do that and also use a GFCI, then if the case isn't grounded you are still OK. Bill Ranck Blacksburg, Va. |
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If your 220V outlet case is truly grounded, then yes you would connect the ground lead to the metal case. Is there an easy way to check if it is truly grounded or not? |
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Wrong answer. That does not keep a fault between the neutral and ground from lighting up the frame of the saw with 110v. not pleasant...what might cause such a condition? You need to have a four conductor plug and wire, and the white wire on the 110 plug should be completely separate and isolated from the ground connections of the saw frame. So if I connect the white wire from the new outlet to the 220V outlet's centre pin (neutral), this will essentially put the white wire on the saw's frame? The ground of the 110 should still be connected to the ground of the saw. If I connect the green wire from the new outlet to the metal box of the 220V outlet will this still cause a problem? To be completely right, the receptacle should be wired with 4 wires, all the way to the box, with separate ground, neutral, and two hot feeds. |
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Electrical Question
You just can't. Your 220 v outlet doesn't have a white (neutral) does
it. Do it right or just don't do it. Also I learned from Blair. Go big or go home. John Steve McDonald wrote: Thank you in advance! I am wiring up a 110V outlet to go on the side of my table saw outfeed extension table recently built. I would like to tap this off of the 220V outlet for the table saw, directly beneath the new bench. I know I can get 110 from this by putting the black wire on one of the 220V outlets hot post and the white wire on the neutral ...now...should the green wire (in the cord going to the new outlet) also go to the same post as the white / neutral since both are at ground potential? Steve |
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Your 220 v outlet doesn't have a white (neutral) does it. Yes...it does |
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Electrical Question
"Steve McDonald" writes:
So if I connect the white wire from the new outlet to the 220V outlet's centre pin (neutral), this will essentially put the white wire on the saw's frame? Note that line voltage in a residential setting varies between 110 and 120 plus or minus 5% or so. I'll use 240 and 120 in this article. Generally tablesaws are not wired with a neutral at all. For what you want to work safely, your 240 outlet must be wired with four (4) wires - two current carrying conductors (typically red and black), one grounded conductor (typically white) and one grounding conductor (typically green or uninsulated). Note that when romex XX-2 with ground cable is used for 240 three-wire outlets, the NEC allows the white conductor to be used as a current carrying conductor (although it should have been permanently marked with black tape or other black marking at both ends). Be very careful not to assume that this white conductor is a grounded conductor, you cannot make 120 from this configuration safely (simple check, use an DVM set to AC 600V to measure the potential difference between the two conductors - it should be either 120 or 240). A 120 outlet will need three conductors. One current carrying conductor (typically black), one grounded conductor (typically white) and a grounding conductor (typically uninsulated). If your 240/220 volt outlet doesn't have a grounded conductor (which is what I expect you'll find, if the outlet was run specifically for the tablesaw), you _cannot_ safely tap a 120 volt circuit from it. Note the NEC refers to the neutral conductor as a ground_ed_ conductor and the ground wire as a ground_ing_ conductor. The grounded conductor and grounding conductors may only be connected together at a single location, and that single location _must_ be the service entrance (this is to prevent inadvertent current flows in the grounding conductor that can cause appliance metal frames to become energized). If your receptacle is installed in a metal box, the box must be bonded to the grounding conductor. I would recommend that you have an electrician evaluate your setup if you are unclear on what to do. scott |
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Steve McDonald wrote:
Your 220 v outlet doesn't have a white (neutral) does it. Yes...it does Just because there is a white wire doesn't necessarily mean it is neutral. What other colored wires are in the box? -- Jack Novak Buffalo, NY - USA (Remove "SPAM" from email address to reply) |
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Electrical Question
"Steve McDonald" writes: Your 220 v outlet doesn't have a white (neutral) does it. Yes...it does There are two types of outlets, three prong and four prong. Both have a white wire connected to one of the prongs, but only one of them has a neutral. On a three prong, the white is the other hot (black=hot1, white=hot2, bare/green=ground). On a four prong, black and red are hots, white is neutral, and bare/green is ground. If you have a black/red/white four-prong, you can use either black/white or red/white, plus ground, to safely power a 120v outlet. |
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Electrical Question
Yikes!
Steve, snip now...should the green wire (in the cord going to the new outlet) also go to the same post as the white / neutral since both are at ground potential? No. The green wire (safety ground) is to provide a direct path to 'ground' in_the_event_of_a_failure. If you don't care if your 110 outlet is 'grounded', simply leave it unconnected. You will only have an ungrounded outlet. (Also a GFCI outlet is no good without a ground!) However, your 220 outlet on the table should have a green or bare ground wire. If it does not then you don't have a grounded outlet for your saw. (Don't know why that would be, since it's pretty standard practice nowadays). Incidently, your additional outlet idea sounds OK for a lamp or some small appliance. If you plan on using it for a drill or shop vac with the saw running, you maybe plagued with CB nuisence trips from too much power drain on one of the 220 legs. It might be better all around to just wire the outlet separatly. Wha'd ya think? Jon Veeneman |
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Electrical Question
"Jon" writes:
(Also a GFCI outlet is no good without a ground!) This is incorrect. A GFCI operates by comparing the current flow between the current carrying conductor and the grounded conductor (aka neutral). If they don't agree within some small percentage, the GFCI will interrupt the current flow. While it is preferred that it be grounded it is not strictly necessary to obtain the benefit of a GFCI. scott |
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Electrical Question
"Steve McDonald" wrote in message ... Wrong answer. That does not keep a fault between the neutral and ground from lighting up the frame of the saw with 110v. not pleasant...what might cause such a condition?\ Any type of wire fault, such as vibration, wirenut coming loose, part pincing wire, ect. You need to have a four conductor plug and wire, and the white wire on the 110 plug should be completely separate and isolated from the ground connections of the saw frame. So if I connect the white wire from the new outlet to the 220V outlet's centre pin (neutral), this will essentially put the white wire on the saw's frame? Correct. The saw has two hot wires, and one ground. This ground is all of the metal on the saw, and is intended to trip a breaker, if one of the hot legs shorts to the frame. When you use that ground as neutral, whatever electricity is being used by the 110, is going from the one hot wire, through the 110 using device, and then back into the frame of the saw. The ground of the 110 should still be connected to the ground of the saw. If I connect the green wire from the new outlet to the metal box of the 220V outlet will this still cause a problem? No. That is as it is supposed to be. The problem is using the ground wire in the saw cord as a neutral. Ground wires are not intended to carry current. It is not a neutral. It is a ground. There is no neutral in a 3 wire 220 system. One needs to be added. To be completely right, the receptacle should be wired with 4 wires, all the way to the box, with separate ground, neutral, and two hot feeds. PLEASE do not listen to ranck. What he proposes can be done, it will work, but if anything else goes wrong, you have removed all safety margins. A new 4 prong receptacle, a new cord and cord cap can all be done for under $25 dollars. A life costs much more than that. -- Jim in NC |
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Electrical Question
Thank you for all of the advice, although some of it appears conflicting. I have examined and traced the wiring from the in-slab 240V metal table saw outlet back to the panel. Here is what I see: There are 3 wires going into the saw outlet from the panel end: BLK, WHT and GRN. The BLK and WHT are connected to the two hot prongs while the GRN is connected to the center pin as well as to the metal box. These wires then go into the concrete slab through a pipe. I can't tell if it is metal or plastic. The wires re-emerge about 10' away in a junction box in the wall, From here they connect with another cable that returns to the breaker panel. This cable has a RED, BLK, WHT and BARE wire. It is connected to the saw wire as such: BLK-BLK, RED-WHT, BARE-GREEN. The WHT wire (from the breaker panel) is capped off. What are the new implications of the WHT wire not being employed? Is it safe in this configuration? Sounds like it should be re-wired with a 4 wire system as so many have suggested. Steve |
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"Steve McDonald" writes: There are 3 wires going into the saw outlet from the panel end: BLK, WHT and GRN. No neutral there. What are the new implications of the WHT wire not being employed? Is it safe in this configuration? Yes. The white is not needed for 240v operation. This cable has a RED, BLK, WHT and BARE wire. It is connected to the saw wire as such: BLK-BLK, RED-WHT, BARE-GREEN. The WHT wire (from the breaker panel) is capped off. This is correct. If you replace the wires from this junction out, you could add the neutral and have the option of adding a 120v outlet or two. |
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"Steve McDonald" wrote in message ... Your 220 v outlet doesn't have a white (neutral) does it. Yes...it does Steve Just because it is white does not mean that it is neutral. A lot of times white is also used as a hot. Do you have a meter? Can you go to the other end of the cable (panel box) and tell how it is wired? Generally, you will not have a neutral wire in a 220v circuit as it has no purpose Frank |
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Electrical Question
Tug on the wires going into the pipe while watching the other end. If you can
pull them out attach a stout cord to the far end and pull the wire out. Add a red wire to the pack and pull them back. Then hook them back up matching the colors and using the red/black for the hots. Look in the panel and verify the white is connected to the neutral bar. Then you will be OK for your 120v outlet. |
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Electrical Question
In article ,
Steve McDonald wrote: Thank you for all of the advice, although some of it appears conflicting. I have examined and traced the wiring from the in-slab 240V metal table saw outlet back to the panel. Here is what I see: There are 3 wires going into the saw outlet from the panel end: BLK, WHT and GRN. The BLK and WHT are connected to the two hot prongs while the GRN is connected to the center pin as well as to the metal box. These wires then go into the concrete slab through a pipe. I can't tell if it is metal or plastic. The wires re-emerge about 10' away in a junction box in the wall, From here they connect with another cable that returns to the breaker panel. This cable has a RED, BLK, WHT and BARE wire. It is connected to the saw wire as such: BLK-BLK, RED-WHT, BARE-GREEN. The WHT wire (from the breaker panel) is capped off. What are the new implications of the WHT wire not being employed? Simply that it is a 240V *ONLY* sub-run. That _connected_ WHT wire (going towards the saw outlet) _should_ be tagged with some black tape, at *both* ends, to indicate that it _is_ a 'hot' lead, and not a 'neutral'. Is it safe in this configuration? Assuming everything else is done correctly, _yes_. Sounds like it should be re-wired with a 4 wire system as so many have suggested. It's perfectly OK, as is, for a _240V_only_ device. However, if you _really_ want that 120V outlet as well, then yes, you _must_ modify the wiring from the saw outlet to the point where it ties to that other cable. Note: you'll also have to investigate the wiring between the outlet on the wall, and the saw itself. You may have to replace _that_ wire, as well, to get a real 'neutral' all the way to the saw. Getting a 'neutral' to the saw outlet will involve pulling another wire through that pipe -- I'd recommend RED, using it for the 2nd hot, and 're-converting' the WHITE back to the 'neutral'. Be sure to remove the black 'tagging' from both ends of the white lead. There are some ways to do the 120V outlet, without pulling the additional wire, *BUT*, they are contrary to building-code virtually *EVERYWHERE*, and, regardless, are _extremely_ dangerous -- there are 'failure modes' that can *kill* you, even if you don't touch anything connected to the 120V outlet. |
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Electrical Question
OK - think I've got it now. One last question...I assume it is still unsafe to add the 120v outlet even if this was done with a GFI outlet? Thanks to all. |
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Electrical Question
"Steve McDonald" wrote in message ... Thank you for all of the advice, although some of it appears conflicting. I have examined and traced the wiring from the in-slab 240V metal table saw outlet back to the panel. Here is what I see: There are 3 wires going into the saw outlet from the panel end: BLK, WHT and GRN. The BLK and WHT are connected to the two hot prongs while the GRN is connected to the center pin as well as to the metal box. These wires then go into the concrete slab through a pipe. I can't tell if it is metal or plastic. The wires re-emerge about 10' away in a junction box in the wall, From here they connect with another cable that returns to the breaker panel. This cable has a RED, BLK, WHT and BARE wire. It is connected to the saw wire as such: BLK-BLK, RED-WHT, BARE-GREEN. The WHT wire (from the breaker panel) is capped off. What are the new implications of the WHT wire not being employed? Is it safe in this configuration? Sounds like it should be re-wired with a 4 wire system as so many have suggested. Steve YOU are in LUCK! You didn't say you had conduit to work with! Great! First, verify one thing. The whit in the junction box that is capped off is most likely the neutral you are looking for. Get a voltmeter and check some things. 1.) The capped off white to the bare wire, with it set on AC volts. Should read no volts. 2.) check red wire to ground, on AC volts. Should be 118 or there abouts. Red wire to ground, AC, also 118. If it checks that way, the white is the neutral. Turn off all of the breakers to that area. You need to pull a red wire from the junction to the outlet. Buy or rent or borrow an electrical fish tap, and take care to tape up the hook so nothing sharp is exposed. You then will go black-black, white to white, red to red, and green to bare in the junction. At the outlet, (a new 4 prong receptacle) you will go black to x, red to y, and white to z, and green (or bare) to g. Do the cord to the saw the same way, with the black and red to the saw motor (switch), and one of them to the 110 outlet. The white goes to the silver screw on the 110 outlet, and is not connected to the saw or anything else. The green goes to the ground screw on the outlet, and the frame of the saw, and to the motor, if it has a separate wire. I think I got all the details you need. Write more, if you need more help. -- Jim in NC |
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Electrical Question
"Steve McDonald" wrote in message ... OK - think I've got it now. One last question...I assume it is still unsafe to add the 120v outlet even if this was done with a GFI outlet? Thanks to all. Right. Unless you add the 4th wire. Am GFI senses how much power comes out of the hot wire, and goes back into the neutral. It does not care if the power is going through the tool, or up one arm and down the other, and it will still think everything is OK. With a true separate ground, it would have another path for the juice to go and trip the GFCI. This still does not address the concern that the ground of the table saw is carrying current, while all it is supposed to do is trip a breaker. Juice in the saw frame is bad. Do it the way I described. The safe way, the right way, the code way. -- Jim in NC |
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Electrical Question
As you can probably see by all the conflicting replies, it would be a
whole lot easier to just run a new 110v circuit where needed. In article , "Steve McDonald" wrote: Thank you in advance! I am wiring up a 110V outlet to go on the side of my table saw outfeed extension table recently built. I would like to tap this off of the 220V outlet for the table saw, directly beneath the new bench. I know I can get 110 from this by putting the black wire on one of the 220V outlets hot post and the white wire on the neutral ...now...should the green wire (in the cord going to the new outlet) also go to the same post as the white / neutral since both are at ground potential? Steve -- Jedd Haas - Artist http://www.gallerytungsten.com http://www.antijazz.com http://www.epsno.com |
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"Steve McDonald" wrote in message ... Sounds like it should be re-wired with a 4 wire system as so many have suggested. Steve YES! The only safe way to do it. Anything else is risking your life. Greg |
#28
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Electrical Question
On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 14:08:37 -0700, "Steve McDonald"
brought forth from the murky depths: If your 220V outlet case is truly grounded, then yes you would connect the ground lead to the metal case. Is there an easy way to check if it is truly grounded or not? Well, if you touch the bare wires to the tip of a wet tongue... - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - WARNING! WARNING! Dangerous Mailbox Approaching. Evade! Evade! ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- http://www.diversify.com Your Wild & Woody Website Wonk |
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Electrical Question
In article ,
Larry Jaques wrote: Is there an easy way to check if it is truly grounded or not? Well, if you touch the bare wires to the tip of a wet tongue... I've lost more dogs that way. -- Owen Lowe and his Fly-by-Night Copper Company Offering a shim for the Porter-Cable 557 type 2 fence design. http://www.flybynightcoppercompany.com http://www.easystreet.com/~onlnlowe/index.html |
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Electrical Question
"Jedd Haas" wrote in message ... As you can probably see by all the conflicting replies, it would be a whole lot easier to just run a new 110v circuit where needed. There are no conflicting replies by those who know what they are talking about. They all say install a 4 wire system. I have it on one of my table saws, and wired through a starter to turn it on and off with the saw. No big deal. -- Jim in NC |
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Electrical Question
now ya did it...the P*ppy troll will soon be here to nail ya !
Well, if you touch the bare wires to the tip of a wet tongue... I've lost more dogs that way. -- Owen Lowe and his Fly-by-Night Copper Company Offering a shim for the Porter-Cable 557 type 2 fence design. http://www.flybynightcoppercompany.com http://www.easystreet.com/~onlnlowe/index.html |
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Got it! I will not jury rig anything. I will either abandon the bench outlet or try to snake a 4th wire through and do it the safe way. I cannot put a new dedicated 120v circuit through the slab. Thanks to all (except for one goof) for the advice...maybe a life saved here today! Steve |
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Electrical Question
it will be a lot easier to pull that Romex out and add the wire instead of
trying to shove it in with the romex in place. Technically you should be pullibng discrete conductors, labelled properly but the cops won't knock your door down of you just strip the Romex jacket off and use the ones you have. You won't believe how much easier it is to pull without that jacket. |
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Electrical Question
"Steve McDonald" wrote in message ... Got it! I will not jury rig anything. I will either abandon the bench outlet or try to snake a 4th wire through and do it the safe way. I cannot put a new dedicated 120v circuit through the slab. Thanks to all (except for one goof) for the advice...maybe a life saved here today! Steve Before we all sign off on this, I didn't notice anyone discussing the breaker amperage vs. the wire gauge you plan to use to wire up the 120v outlet. If, for example, the breaker is a duplex 30 amp and the wire you use to connect the outlet is 12 or 14 gauge, you might have a fire hazard in the making. |
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Thanks Guy...I have come up with a new solution so I will not be doing the re-wiring. I will just coil a short extension on the outlet box that I can plug into the wall outlet about 5' away, without having to get out an extension. I really don't anticipate using the outlet much. Good point re wire guage. Steve |
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Electrical Question
I jumped in on this pretty late, but how many conductors are in the cable
you are using to power up your saw? I would be surprised if you actually had a neutral going there, but if you did, you could pull 120 into a receptacle. I wouldnt want it to be used at the same time the saw was working though. "Steve McDonald" wrote in message ... Thank you in advance! I am wiring up a 110V outlet to go on the side of my table saw outfeed extension table recently built. I would like to tap this off of the 220V outlet for the table saw, directly beneath the new bench. I know I can get 110 from this by putting the black wire on one of the 220V outlets hot post and the white wire on the neutral ...now...should the green wire (in the cord going to the new outlet) also go to the same post as the white / neutral since both are at ground potential? Steve |
#37
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Good call Guy.
Blair "Guy" wrote in message . .. "Steve McDonald" wrote in message ... Got it! I will not jury rig anything. I will either abandon the bench outlet or try to snake a 4th wire through and do it the safe way. I cannot put a new dedicated 120v circuit through the slab. Thanks to all (except for one goof) for the advice...maybe a life saved here today! Steve Before we all sign off on this, I didn't notice anyone discussing the breaker amperage vs. the wire gauge you plan to use to wire up the 120v outlet. If, for example, the breaker is a duplex 30 amp and the wire you use to connect the outlet is 12 or 14 gauge, you might have a fire hazard in the making. |
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I jumped in on this pretty late, but how many conductors are in the cable you are using to power up your saw? I would be surprised if you actually had a neutral going there, but if you did, you could pull 120 into a receptacle. I wouldnt want it to be used at the same time the saw was working though. You are correct...only 3 cables...no neutral, so 120 out of the question. And no, I had not planned on running them at the same time. My fixed extension is working just fine and a lot less hassle! Steve |
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Electrical Question
Morgans wrote:
A GFI senses how much power comes out of the hot wire, and goes back into the neutral. It does not care if the power is going through the tool, or up one arm and down the other, and it will still think everything is OK. With a true separate ground, it would have another path for the juice to go and trip the GFCI. This still does not address the concern that the ground of the table saw is carrying current, while all it is supposed to do is trip a breaker. Juice in the saw frame is bad. Hmm, Morgans makes a very good point here. While GFCIs are a code approved way to add a 3 prong outlet to an existing 120V ungrounded circuit, in this case there is a potential exposure because it is a 240V circuit with a real 240V appliance attached. Not the same situation. Morgans is right. Bill Ranck Blacksburg, Va. |
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