I've tried to read everything I can find about finishing my new white
oak kitchen table purchased from an unfinished furniture store, and I'm
currently thinking that after applying a light oil stain (and letting it
dry for at least two days) I would like to apply multiple top coats of
water-based poly as the final finish.

I get the feeling from all that I've read that there is a greater chance
of not getting that "thick plastic" look if I use the "wipe" method as
opposed to the brush/foam/paint pad method. I would like to use
water-based poly because of fewer VOCs (I have to do the finishing in
the living space of my home and it's getting cold outside) and as it's
just the wife and I, we shouldn't suffer from the lesser durability than
what you would get from the oil-based polys.

What I can't find, is any information on whether or not you CAN thin a
water-based poly and apply via the wipe method. Lots of info on thinning
oil-based poly, but nothing on water-based.

I've been leaning towards using Zar "Aqua Zar" or General Finishes "EF
PolyAcrilic". I've received an email from Zar technical support and they
say "don't do it". I have yet to hear back from General Finishes.

While I do like to listen to what the manufactures say about their
products, I would very much like to receive advice and opinions from
experienced netizens and the results of real-world experience.

Speaking just for myself, I can't stand the look of water-based poly. On high wear or
spill-prone pieces I use Waterlox, a tung-oil based varnish. I like the look and feel of
it - very clear, not yellow or blue, nor thick and plastic either.

Bob

Bob N wrote:

Speaking just for myself, I can't stand the look of water-based poly. On
high wear or spill-prone pieces I use Waterlox, a tung-oil based varnish.
I like the look and feel of it - very clear, not yellow or blue, nor thick
and plastic either.

Thanks for the reply!

I'm definitely a "likes the finish inside the wood, not on top of the
wood" kinda guy. But all the oil finishes I've read about require waxing
as the final step and maintenance. Is that not the case with Waterlox?

Fri, Oct 24, 2003, 10:07am (Ladd=A0Morse) says:
snip I would like to apply multiple top coats of water-based poly
snip and the results of real-world experience.

I would say that's when you get a chunk or two of wood and try it,
to see if it works like you want, or not.

JOAT
Make my shorts. Eat my day.

Life just ain't life without good music. - JOAT
Web Page Update 23 Oct 2003.
Some tunes I like.
http://community-2.webtv.net/Jakofal...OMETUNESILIKE/

maybe he doesn't want to spring the big bucks for a can of water based
only to find out by experimentation that it can't be applied to his
liking when thinned and wiped. That stuff can be pretty pricey, Mr. T.

dave

T. wrote:

Fri, Oct 24, 2003, 10:07am (Ladd Morse) says:
snip I would like to apply multiple top coats of water-based poly
snip and the results of real-world experience.

I would say that's when you get a chunk or two of wood and try it,
to see if it works like you want, or not.

JOAT
Make my shorts. Eat my day.

Life just ain't life without good music. - JOAT
Web Page Update 23 Oct 2003.
Some tunes I like.
http://community-2.webtv.net/Jakofal...OMETUNESILIKE/

This may help - or further confuse:
http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/pages/w00060.asp

Bob S.

Fri, Oct 24, 2003, 4:54pm (EDT+4) (Bay=A0Area=A0Dave)
says:
maybe he doesn't want to spring the big bucks for a can of water based
only to find out by experimentation that it can't be applied to his
liking when thinned and wiped. That stuff can be pretty pricey, Mr. T.

Who does want to spring for big bucks? I'm as broke as anyone
here, but I'd get some, if it was me. It can be thinned, it can be
wiped on. The question is, would it come out to his liking? If he
doesn't want to pop for a can, maybe someone has a bit they'll give him.
But, he'll never know, unless he tries it. And, you don't need to call
me Mr. Sir will do fine.

JOAT
Make my shorts. Eat my day.

Life just ain't life without good music. - JOAT
Web Page Update 23 Oct 2003.
Some tunes I like.
http://community-2.webtv.net/Jakofal...OMETUNESILIKE/

Sir Joat (you didn't invite me to your Knighthood party), I see nothing
wrong with the OP asking a question here to see if it's worth his while
to invest in a product he's unfamiliar with. Many of us do that on the
Wreck, AAMOF. Let him ask; if you have no answer--let someone else give
it a try. Your posts have been substandard, even for you, as of late.
You haven't given any useful help on many of the threads I've looked at.
Whassamatter? Are you bored? If you are, step away from your
keyboard and go play in your shop. When you come back, try to think
positive thoughts like "how can I best answer someone's question with
some USEFUL (that's useFULL; not useLESS) info?" OR, how can I turn
over a new leaf and HELP someone instead of injecting totally useless
comments?

Give that a try and see if you don't feel better about yourself in no
time...

dave

T. wrote:

snip


And, you don't need to call
me Mr. Sir will do fine.

JOAT
Make my shorts. Eat my day.

Life just ain't life without good music. - JOAT
Web Page Update 23 Oct 2003.
Some tunes I like.
http://community-2.webtv.net/Jakofal...OMETUNESILIKE/

T. wrote:

I would say that's when you get a chunk or two of wood and try it,
to see if it works like you want, or not.


Standard (and always good) advice and I'ld love to do it, but I didn't
build the table, I purchased it unfinished, so I don't have any matching
wood to test.

I suppose purchasing a plank from Lowes or Home Depot might possibly
lead me in the correct direction though...

"Ladd Morse" wrote in message
...
T. wrote:

I would say that's when you get a chunk or two of wood and try it,
to see if it works like you want, or not.


Standard (and always good) advice and I'ld love to do it, but I didn't
build the table, I purchased it unfinished, so I don't have any matching
wood to test.

I suppose purchasing a plank from Lowes or Home Depot might possibly
lead me in the correct direction though...

the underside?

What I can't find, is any information on whether or not you CAN thin a
water-based poly and apply via the wipe method. Lots of info on thinning
oil-based poly, but nothing on water-based.


Further exploration leads me to the Target Coatings "Oxford Hybrid
Super-Clear 9000 Polyurethene" which specificially states that it can be
diluted 20% for wipe-on applications.

http://www.targetcoatings.com/produc...uperclear.html

I note that this product (and many others) recommend that it be applied
over a sealer, especially oak. If I am NOT going for a high-gloss
guitar-body finish, but just a casual kitchen table, is a sealer still
recommended?

Still intrigued by the in-a-completely-different-direction Waterlox
recommendation also ...

Charlie Spitzer wrote:

the underside?

Certainly where I plan on starting no matter what I do! :-)

ohhhhhhhhhhhh sheeeeeeeeeeeet......it's gonna hit the fan now......duck n'
run !

"Bay Area Dave" wrote in message
m...
Sir Joat (you didn't invite me to your Knighthood party), I see nothing

snip
Give that a try and see if you don't feel better about yourself in no
time...

dave

On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 19:43:14 GMT, Bay Area Dave
wrote:

Sir Joat (you didn't invite me to your Knighthood party), I see nothing
wrong with the OP asking a question here to see if it's worth his while
to invest in a product he's unfamiliar with.

Dave, this stuff comes in pints for about $3. G

I think JOAT's point is that it may be POSSIBLE to thin it, but the OP
may like the results. Only the OP can make the decision to use it
from there. So, even if WE say it can be done the OP should STILL
try it on some scrap, to see if HE likes it.

Does that make sense?

Barry

On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 15:49:49 -0400, (Ladd Morse)
wrote:

Standard (and always good) advice and I'ld love to do it, but I didn't
build the table, I purchased it unfinished, so I don't have any matching
wood to test.


There's no wood on the underside?

Barry

"B a r r y B u r k e J r ." wrote
in message ...
On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 15:49:49 -0400, (Ladd Morse)
wrote:

Standard (and always good) advice and I'ld love to do it, but I didn't
build the table, I purchased it unfinished, so I don't have any matching
wood to test.


There's no wood on the underside?

Barry

mobius table?

Charlie Spitzer wrote:


mobius table?


Dang!! My secret is out!! :-)

"bs" wrote in message
...
ohhhhhhhhhhhh sheeeeeeeeeeeet......it's gonna hit the fan now......duck n'
run !

Gag reflex activated. Tail Gunner Dave has raised hypocrisy to an art form.

Fri, Oct 24, 2003, 7:43pm (EDT+4) (Bay=A0Area=A0Dave)
puts out:
big snip Give that a try and see if you don't feel better about
yourself in no time...

Read the next post.

JOAT
Make my shorts. Eat my day.

Life just ain't life without good music. - JOAT
Web Page Update 23 Oct 2003.
Some tunes I like.
http://community-2.webtv.net/Jakofal...OMETUNESILIKE/

Fri, Oct 24, 2003, 8:48pm (EDT+4)

(B=A0a=A0r=A0r=A0y=A0B=A0u=A0r=A0k=A0e=A0J=A0r=A0. ) says:
snip I think JOAT's point is that it may be POSSIBLE to thin it, but
the OP may like the results. Only the OP can make the decision to use it
from there. =A0 So, even if WE say it can be done the OP should STILL
try it on some scrap, to see if HE likes it.
Does that make sense?

Ah ha, I was thinking that was what I was saying, and apparently it
was.

JOAT
Make my shorts. Eat my day.

Life just ain't life without good music. - JOAT
Web Page Update 23 Oct 2003.
Some tunes I like.
http://community-2.webtv.net/Jakofal...OMETUNESILIKE/

On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 15:18:52 -0400 (EDT),
(T.) wrote:

I'm as broke as anyone here,

Bet you're not 8-(

--
Die Gotterspammerung - Junkmail of the Gods

Andy Dingley wrote:

On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 15:18:52 -0400 (EDT),
(T.) wrote:

I'm as broke as anyone here,

Bet you're not 8-(

Let's have a contest. I have $40 USD in my pocket. This feels like a
fortune. I haven't seen this much cash in a long time.

--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/

still having a hard time speaking for yourself, huh? Who do you get to
build your projects for you? do you invite your buddies over, crack
open a case of beer and let 'em use one of those famous plans you culled
off the net?

dave

T. wrote:

Fri, Oct 24, 2003, 8:48pm (EDT+4)

(B a r r y B u r k e J r .) says:
snip I think JOAT's point is that it may be POSSIBLE to thin it, but
the OP may like the results. Only the OP can make the decision to use it
from there. So, even if WE say it can be done the OP should STILL
try it on some scrap, to see if HE likes it.
Does that make sense?

Ah ha, I was thinking that was what I was saying, and apparently it
was.

JOAT
Make my shorts. Eat my day.

Life just ain't life without good music. - JOAT
Web Page Update 23 Oct 2003.
Some tunes I like.
http://community-2.webtv.net/Jakofal...OMETUNESILIKE/

Sat, Oct 25, 2003, 3:14am (EDT+5)
(Andy=A0Dingley)
says:
I'm as broke as anyone here,
Bet you're not =A0 8-(

Oh Hell, I lose. Well known fact, second liar always wins. LMAO

If not, there aren't many broker. But, on the other hand, you
could call me rich, 'course that all depends on how you define rich.
Pay my bills, get fed, got a home, a shop, a pickup, some wood, and even
a few $ to spend on myself. All that's missing is money. That's close
enough to rich for me. LOL Basically, life is good.

JOAT
Make my shorts. Eat my day.

Life just ain't life without good music. - JOAT
Web Page Update 23 Oct 2003.
Some tunes I like.
http://community-2.webtv.net/Jakofal...OMETUNESILIKE/

Sat, Oct 25, 2003, 3:23am (EDT+4) (Bay=A0Area=A0Dave)
puts out:
still having a hard time speaking for yourself, huh?

Nope, but Barry generously offered his services as translator;
since, semingly, you weren't understanding anything I was saying.

Who do you get to build your projects for you?

Well gee, nobody. If somone else built them, they wouldn't be my
projects, they'd be someone else's. If they turn out good, then I
accept credit. If they turn out not so good, I still accept credit.
And, if they turn out really lousy, I don't tell anyone, just recycle
them.

do you invite your buddies over, crack open a case of beer and let 'em
use one of those famous plans you culled off the net?

I don't have buddies. I don't drink, smoke any funny weeds, or use
strange chemicals. I wasn't aware any of those plans were famous.
Anyway, I seldom use any plans but my own. I do check other peoplle's
plans, to keep from reinventing the wheel.

JOAT
Make my shorts. Eat my day.

Life just ain't life without good music. - JOAT
Web Page Update 23 Oct 2003.
Some tunes I like.
http://community-2.webtv.net/Jakofal...OMETUNESILIKE/

T. wrote:

I don't have buddies.

Yeah you do.

--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/

Fri, Oct 24, 2003, 10:30pm (Silvan) is
being funny:
Let's have a contest. I have $40 USD in my pocket. This feels like a
fortune. I haven't seen this much cash in a long time.

In US dollars: $13 in my money clip, $50.64 in my checking account
($24.45 of which is earmarked for a bill), 31 cents in my savings
account; for a total of $63.95. Less the $24.45, leaves $39.50
available.
And I foolishly thought I was about broke; actually, I appear to be
doing a bit better this month than usual.

JOAT
Make my shorts. Eat my day.

Life just ain't life without good music. - JOAT
Web Page Update 23 Oct 2003.
Some tunes I like.
http://community-2.webtv.net/Jakofal...OMETUNESILIKE/

T. wrote:

In US dollars: $13 in my money clip, $50.64 in my checking account
($24.45 of which is earmarked for a bill), 31 cents in my savings
account; for a total of $63.95. Less the $24.45, leaves $39.50
available.

OK, I guess you're more broke than I am, but just barely. If we get to take
out earmarked stuff, I have $32 available, so I win again.

I guess either way you slice it, neither of us is any too rich.

--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/

On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 22:30:43 -0400, Silvan
wrote:

Let's have a contest. I have $40 USD in my pocket. This feels like a
fortune. I haven't seen this much cash in a long time.

I've got more than that right now. But it's the end of the month,
and how do I deal with the rent ? 8-(

--
Die Gotterspammerung - Junkmail of the Gods

Ladd Morse wrote:


What I can't find, is any information on whether or not you CAN thin a
water-based poly and apply via the wipe method. Lots of info on thinning
oil-based poly, but nothing on water-based.

Water-based poly is an emulsion in a mixture of water and organic
solvents. There is a lot less organic solvent than solvent-based poly,
but there is some and if you change the composition of the liquid by too
much dilution you risk breaking the emulsion. In that case, the solids
content separates from the solution - i.e. the stuff is ruined. I
would avoid diluting unless the manufacturer says it is OK, and then
don't dilute anymore than they tell you.

I've used water-based poly a lot in the winter when I have to finish
inside the house. (The rest of the year I finish in the garage with
some ventilation). One thing to be aware of is that because of the water
the first coat really raises the grain a lot and the surface will feel
very rough. You will need to sand after the first coat almost to the
point that all the poly on the surface is taken off. So think of the
first coat as a sealer of sorts and let it dry very well before sanding.
With large pore wood like oak you may have to do pretty heavy sanding
after the first two coast.

If it were me, I would use a good brush and finish the underside of the
table with undiluted stuff and see if you like the results. I think the
plasticy look attributed to poly is a myth. Any finish that you build
that has high gloss can look plastic, not just poly. If you don't want
a glossy look, use a satin formulation, or use a gloss formulation and
sand with fine steel wool at the end.

--
To email me use: sjusenet AT comcast DOT net

"Silvan" wrote in message
Let's have a contest. I have $40 USD in my pocket. This feels like a
fortune. I haven't seen this much cash in a long time.


It is a fortune. I get paid once a month. There are five Thursdays in this
month. Normally the last one would have been pay day, but this time it is
next Thursday. Loooooong stretch the next few days.
Ed

Thanks very much for the detailed (and on-topic) answer! :-)


Water-based poly is an emulsion in a mixture of water and organic
solvents. There is a lot less organic solvent than solvent-based poly,
but there is some and if you change the composition of the liquid by too
much dilution you risk breaking the emulsion. In that case, the solids
content separates from the solution - i.e. the stuff is ruined. I
would avoid diluting unless the manufacturer says it is OK, and then
don't dilute anymore than they tell you.

I've used water-based poly a lot in the winter when I have to finish
inside the house. (The rest of the year I finish in the garage with
some ventilation). One thing to be aware of is that because of the water
the first coat really raises the grain a lot and the surface will feel
very rough. You will need to sand after the first coat almost to the
point that all the poly on the surface is taken off. So think of the
first coat as a sealer of sorts and let it dry very well before sanding.
With large pore wood like oak you may have to do pretty heavy sanding
after the first two coast.

If it were me, I would use a good brush and finish the underside of the
table with undiluted stuff and see if you like the results. I think the
plasticy look attributed to poly is a myth. Any finish that you build
that has high gloss can look plastic, not just poly. If you don't want
a glossy look, use a satin formulation, or use a gloss formulation and
sand with fine steel wool at the end.

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:

It is a fortune. I get paid once a month. There are five Thursdays in
this month. Normally the last one would have been pay day, but this time
it is
next Thursday. Loooooong stretch the next few days.

Been there, done that. Those five-week months suck.

I'm at the other extreme now. I get paid every Friday, whether I work or
not. Makes it easy to budget, but I still don't get to keep any of it.

--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/

Sat, Oct 25, 2003, 3:24am (Silvan)
claims:
OK, I guess you're more broke than I am, but just barely. If we get to
take out earmarked stuff, I have $32 available, so I win again.
I guess either way you slice it, neither of us is any too rich.

I didn't put this in as earmarked, because I figured I would be
paying it after I get my monthly stipend, at the first of next month.
Dental appointment on Mon. I've got $30 credit with them, but the visit
is going to cost a bare minimum of $12 more, and proably closser to
$100. Nyah, nayh, nyah, I'm broker than you are. LMAO

Not rich? Depends on your outlook. Like I've said bfore, I've got
food, shelter, my bills paid, a pickup truck (a very important part of
the local culture), some wood, and usualy a few $ to spend on myself.
Somewhat monetarily challenged, but even so, pretty much considered
being rich in a lot of cultures. Basically, life is good.

And, you lose again. ROTFLMAO

JOAT
Make my shorts. Eat my day.

Life just ain't life without good music. - JOAT
Web Page Update 23 Oct 2003.
Some tunes I like.
http://community-2.webtv.net/Jakofal...OMETUNESILIKE/

Sat, Oct 25, 2003, 11:22am (Silvan)
says:
I'm at the other extreme now. I get paid every Friday, whether I work or
not. Makes it easy to budget, but I still don't get to keep any of it.

Damn, I thought you'd have learned something by now, but I guess
not. You're not looking at the bright side of it. Ed goes broke once a
month. But you get to go broke 4 or 5 times a month. Think about how
much luckier you are than him. LMAO

JOAT
Make my shorts. Eat my day.

Life just ain't life without good music. - JOAT
Web Page Update 23 Oct 2003.
Some tunes I like.
http://community-2.webtv.net/Jakofal...OMETUNESILIKE/

Typically "water based" finished are not to be thinned. Some can be brushed
on just fine as is.

--

Rumpty

Radial Arm Saw Forum: http://forums.delphiforums.com/woodbutcher/start

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -


"Ladd Morse" wrote in message
...
I've tried to read everything I can find about finishing my new white
oak kitchen table purchased from an unfinished furniture store, and I'm
currently thinking that after applying a light oil stain (and letting it
dry for at least two days) I would like to apply multiple top coats of
water-based poly as the final finish.

I get the feeling from all that I've read that there is a greater chance
of not getting that "thick plastic" look if I use the "wipe" method as
opposed to the brush/foam/paint pad method. I would like to use
water-based poly because of fewer VOCs (I have to do the finishing in
the living space of my home and it's getting cold outside) and as it's
just the wife and I, we shouldn't suffer from the lesser durability than
what you would get from the oil-based polys.

What I can't find, is any information on whether or not you CAN thin a
water-based poly and apply via the wipe method. Lots of info on thinning
oil-based poly, but nothing on water-based.

I've been leaning towards using Zar "Aqua Zar" or General Finishes "EF
PolyAcrilic". I've received an email from Zar technical support and they
say "don't do it". I have yet to hear back from General Finishes.

While I do like to listen to what the manufactures say about their
products, I would very much like to receive advice and opinions from
experienced netizens and the results of real-world experience.

On Sat, 25 Oct 2003 03:24:52 -0400, Silvan
wrote:


I guess either way you slice it, neither of us is any too rich.

In my book, "rich" is not measured in dollars.

Barry

On Sat, 25 Oct 2003 09:03:38 -0400, (Steve James)
wrote:

If it were me, I would use a good brush and finish the underside of the
table with undiluted stuff and see if you like the results. I think the
plasticy look attributed to poly is a myth. Any finish that you build
that has high gloss can look plastic, not just poly.

I agree for the most part, except for the myth. Any finish, badly
applied, will look like crap. Many bad finishes seem to be Minwax
polyurethanes applied 1/4" thick, because bad finishers are unaware of
the better products and methods. So the plasticky look is real, but
not simply due to the presence of polyurethane, just bad usage. Also,
just as with stains, there ARE better brands than Minwax polyurethane.
G

Even the highest quality tool doesn't do the work itself!

If you don't want
a glossy look, use a satin formulation, or use a gloss formulation and
sand with fine steel wool at the end.

An alternate method is to use gloss all the way to the last coat, with
a satin coat last. Either way will provide more clarity than building
multiple satin coats, as the flattening agents tend to cloud the
finish.

Barry

Steve James wrote:

If it were me, I would use a good brush and finish the underside of the
table with undiluted stuff and see if you like the results. I think the
plasticy look attributed to poly is a myth. Any finish that you build
that has high gloss can look plastic, not just poly.

B a r r y B u r k e J r .
replied:

I agree for the most part, except for the myth. Any finish, badly
applied, will look like crap. Many bad finishes seem to be Minwax
polyurethanes applied 1/4" thick, because bad finishers are unaware of
the better products and methods. So the plasticky look is real, but
not simply due to the presence of polyurethane, just bad usage. Also,
just as with stains, there ARE better brands than Minwax polyurethane.

By the myth of poly and the plastic look what I (mainly) meant was that
this is not something unique to polyurethane. So I agree with you. You
can get a crappy result with a poor product or by improper application
of a good one.

For my own education, what brand of polyurethane finish do you prefer?

Steve

--
To email me use: sjusenet AT comcast DOT net

T. wrote:

is going to cost a bare minimum of $12 more, and proably closser to
$100. Nyah, nayh, nyah, I'm broker than you are. LMAO

You win, for now.

I finally realized that I could get dental coverage through my wife's job,
which was an enormous help.

Not rich? Depends on your outlook. Like I've said bfore, I've got
food, shelter, my bills paid, a pickup truck (a very important part of
the local culture), some wood, and usualy a few $ to spend on myself.
Somewhat monetarily challenged, but even so, pretty much considered
being rich in a lot of cultures. Basically, life is good.

Yeah, mine is good too. Sometimes it gets dicey, but mostly I just go day
by day and enjoy the ride.

I'm definitely not hung up on money. I actually hate money. The more you
make, the more limited your options are. Seems like most people don't see
it that way, but I do. The less money I can get away with earning, the
happier I am. Less money == less stress.

I don't want to earn a six or seven figure income if my life sucks. I
wouldn't mind having heaping piles of the green stuff laying around, but
not if it stresses me out to get it. Never met a guy in a
Lexus/Bimmer/Mercedes/etc. who wasn't always talking some business on his
cell phone. Everything's business, everything's stress, everything's
worrying about the next big thing.

Nah, screw all that. I have a job I can walk away from at the end of the
day. I want to walk away from it soon, once some bills are paid and do
something else. Once my debt is under control, I can lose $700 a month
without feeling it. That opens all kinds of options. I can make car
payments, buy a new expensive tool every month, put some money back for
retirement, or just say screw it and go get a job working only 40 hours a
weeks somewhere and take a big pay cut. I'll probably go for the latter.

I guess you could say I'm lazy, and you'd be right, but it isn't really lazy
so much as just having a clear idea of what I want to get out of life. I
want to do as much enjoyable stuff as I can before I die, and I might die
any second or 100 years from now. There's no telling which, so I try to
make the most of whatever time I have.

--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/