Hello.
I'm sure this has been posted about in here before, but I don't know how to
find it. So I'll ask again.

I am running a 220 line for my new (used) tablesaw. What does the ground
attach to in the breaker box? Does it go to the neutral bus bar, or
elsewhere?

Thanks,

Alex

Alexander Rabinovich wrote:

I am running a 220 line for my new (used) tablesaw. What does the ground
attach to in the breaker box? Does it go to the neutral bus bar, or
elsewhere?

It goes to the ground bus bar with all the other grounds.

Chris

"Alexander Rabinovich" writes:
I am running a 220 line for my new (used) tablesaw. What does the ground
attach to in the breaker box? Does it go to the neutral bus bar, or
elsewhere?

[I am not a licensed electrician. Always follow local code and
ordinances.]

Ground (green/bare) always goes to ground. Always. Your main breaker
box may be the ground/neutral strapping point, though, in which case
both bus bars are connected together and it shouldn't matter which you
use (unless the existing wires are segregated, in which case, use the
same as as the other ground wires).

A 120v circuit uses one line to the breaker (black) and one line to
neutral (white), in addition to ground.

A 240v circuit has two options:

1. Two lines to each pole of a dual-pole breaker (supposed to be
black/red, so if you use two-conductor cable (which is black/white)
you should use a red marker to mark the white wires).

2. Two lines to each pole of a dual-pole breaker (as above) and a
third line (white) to neutral.

Table saws almost laways use #1.

Color summary:

Green/bare - ground.

White - neutral.

Black - hot (breaker or dual breaker).

Red - hot #2 (dual breaker).

Now, within the tool the colors may not be so obvious (they should be,
but they may not be). However, one wire should be physically
connected to the metal chassis or the metal case of the motor. This
wire is ground.

Any plugs/outlets you may install should have information on them
about which wires go where, but usually there's one screw that's
greenish (ground), one that's silverish (white, neutral) and one
that's bronze (black, hot). 240v outlets will have two bronze screws,
and may label them "L1" and "L2". No, it doesn't matter which hot is
which.

Other tidbits... In polarized outlets, the wider prong is neutral.
Outlets should be installed with ground "up" so if the plug is loose,
anything falling in there will hit ground first. All metal boxes and
conduits must be connected to ground, but should not be used *as*
ground. Wires should be attached to 2x4 wall studs at the center, to
avoid getting damaged by sheetrock screws.

Alexander Rabinovich wrote:
Hello.
I'm sure this has been posted about in here before, but I don't know
how to find it. So I'll ask again.

I am running a 220 line for my new (used) tablesaw. What does the
ground attach to in the breaker box? Does it go to the neutral bus
bar, or elsewhere?

If you're using three conductors plus ground, red and black go to the
breaker, white goes to the neutral bus bar, green/bare goes to the
ground bus bar.

If you're using two conductors plus ground then black and white (mark
the white conductor red at both ends with paint, tape, or heat
shrink--I forget what marking method code calls for) go to the breaker
and green/bare goes to the ground bus bar.

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

DJ Delorie wrote in :

*snip*

Other tidbits... In polarized outlets, the wider prong is neutral.
Outlets should be installed with ground "up" so if the plug is loose,
anything falling in there will hit ground first. All metal boxes and
conduits must be connected to ground, but should not be used *as*
ground. Wires should be attached to 2x4 wall studs at the center, to
avoid getting damaged by sheetrock screws.


So that's why they switched positions! I got used to the "face" and was
wondering why the new outlets were positioned "upside down." Is this a
NEC requirement, or just something for extra safety?

Puckdropper
--
Wise is the man who attempts to answer his question before asking it.

To email me directly, send a message to puckdropper (at) fastmail.fm

" I am running a 220 line for my new (used) tablesaw.

Thank you everybody for your helpful responses. Now, it's time to grab the
tool belt and go down to the basement...

Alex

"Puckdropper" wrote in message

So that's why they switched positions! I got used to the "face" and was
wondering why the new outlets were positioned "upside down." Is this a
NEC requirement, or just something for extra safety?


Not required by code, but it is becoming an accepted practice.

In article , "J. Clarke" wrote:

If you're using two conductors plus ground then black and white (mark
the white conductor red at both ends with paint, tape, or heat
shrink--I forget what marking method code calls for) go to the breaker
and green/bare goes to the ground bus bar.

Code doesn't specify the marking method -- just that it must be permanent, and
encircle the conductor.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

On Sat, 3 Nov 2007 21:32:42 -0400, "Alexander Rabinovich"
wrote:


" I am running a 220 line for my new (used) tablesaw.

Thank you everybody for your helpful responses. Now, it's time to grab the
tool belt and go down to the basement...

Alex

After turning the breakers off, right?


mac

Please remove splinters before emailing

For some applications there are indeed 2 grounds, a neutral ground and
a machine ground. There is some reason the phase may be out if not
wired correctly (no im not an electrician) It is the difference
between 3 and 4 wire 220. Same voltage with different configuration...

Do yourself a favor, check with a professional or your local township
for codes...110 can kill you, but 220 likely WILL kill you if wired
wrong...

On Sun, 04 Nov 2007 19:48:39 -0800, Joe wrote:

For some applications there are indeed 2 grounds, a neutral ground and
a machine ground. There is some reason the phase may be out if not
wired correctly (no im not an electrician) It is the difference
between 3 and 4 wire 220. Same voltage with different configuration...

Yep.. I hit this last year when we were running off of a generator..

The contractors generator didn't work very well... water pump and water heater
would not both run without blowing the breaker on the gen., so we ran one at a
time..
When we bought our own gen., I noticed that it had a 4 prong outlet, where the
contractor's had 3...
They has wires going to each hot and what I "assumed" was ground..
This was before we had electricity, obviously, and the 2 hot wires ran to lugs
in the box above where the meter would be and the ground ran to one of 2 pieces
of re-bar in the ground in front of the meter "kiosk"..

We ran the 2 hots as they did, the ground to the same place they used and the
neutral to the other grounding rod..
Everything worked well and my son & I were busy congratulating ourselves when my
wife mentioned that the breaker panel (in the kitchen pantry) was "buzzing"...
Found out it wasn't buzzing, just ARCING... oops...
Shut everything down, reversed the ground and neutral and fired up the
generator...Everything worked great for the next couple of months, until we got
"real" electricity...


mac

Please remove splinters before emailing

"mac davis" wrote in message
...


We ran the 2 hots as they did, the ground to the same place they used and
the
neutral to the other grounding rod..
Everything worked well and my son & I were busy congratulating ourselves
when my
wife mentioned that the breaker panel (in the kitchen pantry) was
"buzzing"...
Found out it wasn't buzzing, just ARCING... oops...
Shut everything down, reversed the ground and neutral and fired up the
generator...Everything worked great for the next couple of months, until
we got
"real" electricity...


Something about this doesn't sound right mac. Both of those rods should
have been electrically the same, so it won't matter which wire you run to
which rod.

--

-Mike-

On 04 Nov 2007 00:53:55 GMT, Puckdropper
wrote:

DJ Delorie wrote in :

*snip*

Other tidbits... In polarized outlets, the wider prong is neutral.
Outlets should be installed with ground "up" so if the plug is loose,
anything falling in there will hit ground first. All metal boxes and
conduits must be connected to ground, but should not be used *as*
ground. Wires should be attached to 2x4 wall studs at the center, to
avoid getting damaged by sheetrock screws.


So that's why they switched positions! I got used to the "face" and was
wondering why the new outlets were positioned "upside down." Is this a
NEC requirement, or just something for extra safety?

Annoys the **** out of me. It just looks wrong. And the "reasoning"
(loose plug/falling object) ranks right up there with dust collection
system explosions. I've yet to see or hear any actual documented
example of that happening anywhere.

Things you will never see in my house: Al Sharpton, Bill O'Reilly,
upside down receptacles, Al Sharpton (not redundant).


--
LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net

Proud participant of rec.woodworking since February, 1997

email addy de-spam-ified due to 1,000 spams per month.
If you can't figure out how to use it, I probably wouldn't
care to correspond with you anyway.

On Mon, 5 Nov 2007 14:08:24 -0500, "Mike Marlow"
wrote:


"mac davis" wrote in message
.. .


We ran the 2 hots as they did, the ground to the same place they used and
the
neutral to the other grounding rod..
Everything worked well and my son & I were busy congratulating ourselves
when my
wife mentioned that the breaker panel (in the kitchen pantry) was
"buzzing"...
Found out it wasn't buzzing, just ARCING... oops...
Shut everything down, reversed the ground and neutral and fired up the
generator...Everything worked great for the next couple of months, until
we got
"real" electricity...


Something about this doesn't sound right mac. Both of those rods should
have been electrically the same, so it won't matter which wire you run to
which rod.

That got me, also.. I looked at my neighbor's kiosk and it only has one rod in
the ground...
Someone told me that it depended on where the ground wires went.. on the bar or
on the box, or something like that..
I'm pretty comfortable working with 110v but 220v is a now thing for me..

OH.. sort of a side thing, but might be relevant:
The house is built of insulating block and has no studs to screw the circuit
breaker panel into, so until the did the stucco work, the panel was held in
place with bailing wire twisted around a metal vent pipe and run through the
screw holes in the breaker box..
These wire were RED hot and arcing..
When we reversed the ground and neutral wires, they were fine..

Bottom line was that I should have had someone qualified hook up the generator
up but didn't really believe the bozo that the contractor sent out was an
"electrician"


mac

Please remove splinters before emailing

"mac davis" wrote in message
...


That got me, also.. I looked at my neighbor's kiosk and it only has one
rod in
the ground...
Someone told me that it depended on where the ground wires went.. on the
bar or
on the box, or something like that..
I'm pretty comfortable working with 110v but 220v is a now thing for me..


Help me out here mac - what is this that you refer to as a kiosk?


OH.. sort of a side thing, but might be relevant:
The house is built of insulating block and has no studs to screw the
circuit
breaker panel into, so until the did the stucco work, the panel was held
in
place with bailing wire twisted around a metal vent pipe and run through
the
screw holes in the breaker box..
These wire were RED hot and arcing..
When we reversed the ground and neutral wires, they were fine..

Since your ground and your neutral are tied together in the box, it should
not matter. You can run a generator without a ground (separate ground rod
near the generator) all day long with no problems. It's done every day all
across America. That means you're only running the two hot legs and the
neutral back to the panel. You look just like the public utility at this
point. Tie the ground and the neutral together as you did by clamping to
earth ground, and tie the panel to earth ground and you've effectively done
the same thing. That of course, assumes that both of those ground rods were
indeed making good earth contact. Just being driven into the ground 8' does
not assure good earth ground. As odd as that sounds, when I was in the Air
Force they used to inspect our earth grounds every few months. Sometimes
the ground would read a high resistance and they'd pour water there to see
if that fixed it. Then of course, they'd schedule a follow up inspection to
make sure that the ground was indeed good. At home, nobody measures their
earth ground. We just sink rods and move on.

It's hard to guess in retrospect, what was wrong, but this really sounds
more like a fundamental wiring mistake - either in your cable or how you hit
the panel. Somehow you put a leg of voltage on the panel box. I'll just
about guarantee there was a wiring error in there somewhere.

--

-Mike-

On Wed, 7 Nov 2007 09:31:47 -0500, "Mike Marlow"
wrote:


Help me out here mac - what is this that you refer to as a kiosk?

Sorry.. We're in a new development in Mexico and each house has a 4 foot high
stucco box in front of it for the electrical service.. My wife says it's a
kiosk, which I'm probably spelling wrong and thought it was a small display in a
shopping mall.. ;-]


Since your ground and your neutral are tied together in the box, it should
not matter. You can run a generator without a ground (separate ground rod
near the generator) all day long with no problems. It's done every day all
across America. That means you're only running the two hot legs and the
neutral back to the panel. You look just like the public utility at this
point. Tie the ground and the neutral together as you did by clamping to
earth ground, and tie the panel to earth ground and you've effectively done
the same thing. That of course, assumes that both of those ground rods were
indeed making good earth contact. Just being driven into the ground 8' does
not assure good earth ground. As odd as that sounds, when I was in the Air
Force they used to inspect our earth grounds every few months. Sometimes
the ground would read a high resistance and they'd pour water there to see
if that fixed it. Then of course, they'd schedule a follow up inspection to
make sure that the ground was indeed good. At home, nobody measures their
earth ground. We just sink rods and move on.

Might be what they did on or neighbors house... he has one rod, we have 2..

It's hard to guess in retrospect, what was wrong, but this really sounds
more like a fundamental wiring mistake - either in your cable or how you hit
the panel. Somehow you put a leg of voltage on the panel box. I'll just
about guarantee there was a wiring error in there somewhere.

Very possible... Working with Mexican contractors is a real test of patience and
endurance..
Our blueprints show 3 breakers in the kitchen, in reality there's ONE.. for
everything, including the refrigerator..
We called him on it and he offered to tear up the wall (insulated cement block)
and rewire, but after several fixes of this type we just told him to forget it..
They had to cut walls for the missing wires for the satellite tv, then for the
phone and then for a trap they didn't put in for the laundry... that was enough
wall work..
Oh.. and the water leak that flooded our courtyard every time the water pump ran
was fun, too..
They had to do another roof-to-foundation cut to replace poorly glued joints on
that one... *sigh*



mac

Please remove splinters before emailing

"mac davis" wrote in message
...


Very possible... Working with Mexican contractors is a real test of
patience and
endurance..
Our blueprints show 3 breakers in the kitchen, in reality there's ONE..
for
everything, including the refrigerator..
We called him on it and he offered to tear up the wall (insulated cement
block)
and rewire, but after several fixes of this type we just told him to
forget it..
They had to cut walls for the missing wires for the satellite tv, then for
the
phone and then for a trap they didn't put in for the laundry... that was
enough
wall work..
Oh.. and the water leak that flooded our courtyard every time the water
pump ran
was fun, too..
They had to do another roof-to-foundation cut to replace poorly glued
joints on
that one... *sigh*


You're a man of admirable patience mac.

--

-Mike-

On Wed, 7 Nov 2007 23:49:41 -0500, "Mike Marlow"
wrote:



You're a man of admirable patience mac.

You have to be down here, Mike, or you'll end up in the rubber room...

We figure that's we're guests in their country and go with the flow.. but it's
ain't always easy..
You learn after a while that the only stress down here is what you bring on
yourself... the job will be done when it's done and they don't worry about
deadlines and such.. just not in the culture..

I met a guy last night who's house was "contracted" to be finished 18 months
ago, and they just put windows and doors in...
You don't dare **** off a contractor, because the all have way more work than
they can handle and they'll just wander off to the next job..



mac

Please remove splinters before emailing

On Fri, 9 Nov 2007 17:29:50 -0500, Me wrote:

Been there, done that...

When converting my garage in the States to a "SHOP", I needed more 110v outlets,
and wasn't using the 220v for the dryer plug..
With the helpful advise of a neighbor, I ran the extra ground wire and converted
the 220 into two 110v circuits, each having it's own junction box and all..
Ran 12 gauge three-wire romex (with romex staples) all around the garage to
where needed... the 220v at the breaker panel had a breaker for each leg, so I
was all set..
What they DIDN'T tell me was to replace the two 40 amp breakers with 15 or 20
amp...
We were very lucky... about 2 months later we had a small fire in one outlet box
and we were in the shop at the time, so it was easy to put the fire out...
However, I had to send my wife to the breaker box to TURN OFF the 40 amp
breaker...
I learned later that 12 gauge wire will melt before a 40 amp breaker will pop..

What I should have done was have an electrician do it, but since I did it
myself, I should have replaced the 40 amp breakers with 20 amp AND used breaker
boxes on each shop circuit instead of junction boxes..... and put 15 amp
breakers in each of the "sub panels"..


In article ,
says...

snip


Hi All,
Not exactly on topic, but I had to share this.

In 2005, I bought my home in a city closer to work and everything I do.
It was a fixer-upper, but what better for a weekend woodworking warrior?

The day after I moved in, a new neighbor walked over, introduced himself
and let me know I should be really careful with the electricity in the
garage. "The guy that moved-out thought he knew everything, but wasn't
real good with electricity and he just finished re-wiring the garage.
He couldn't turn the garage electricity on, a breaker would always
'POP' ".

The fact that the romex in the garage was draped over 10d cut masonry
nails gave me my 1st clue.
I also noticed four - individual #4 wires (all the same color, no color
code added) in the main service panel.
I wondered what appliance he had planned for the garage.

OK, let's see;
Four wires for the 220 service,
1 each for the 2 -110's
1 Neutral
1 Safety Ground

Looks good, EXCEPT 2 of the wires went to 20 amp breakers and 1 to a 15
amp breaker. He attached the Neutral to a breaker!

The kitchen was even more fun, but that's for another time.

Be Safe,

Dave


mac

Please remove splinters before emailing