We are planning to redo our kitchen in a year or two. We'll be doing
most of it ourselves, including building the cabinets. I have been
building my skills and my tool collection and think I am just about
ready for this task. We have remodeled another kitchen in the past
using ready made cabinets.

I have one big question though. I'm not sure if it's cost effective to
build my own cabinets or to go out and buy some decent quality ready
made ones. As far as tools go I would have to buy a big router to
handle panel raising and either build or buy a "real" router table (I
am now using the Porter Cable entry level "table" with a PC 691).
Then, there is the cost of materials. My wife wants cherry and I know
it's not cheap. The cost of hardware is obscene and all the other wood
for drawers, shelves and carcasses will add up to a small fortune.

I know I will really enjoy the challenge and feel a major sense of
accomplishment but I'm not sure if it's worth it if I can buy ready
mades for half the price. Has anyone here done a serious cost
comparison?

Also, any advice about ways to save money would be appreciated. I am
planning on building face frame cabinets with raised panel doors and
LOTS of drawers. I can get cherry at my local lumber yard but it costs
a fortune (finished on all 4 sides). I have a jointer and planer but
no source for unfinished kiln dried cherry (I live in NY's Hudson
Valley).

Thanks in advance,
Chuck

Chuck wrote:
We are planning to redo our kitchen in a year or two. We'll be doing
most of it ourselves, including building the cabinets. I have been
building my skills and my tool collection and think I am just about
ready for this task. We have remodeled another kitchen in the past
using ready made cabinets.

I have one big question though. I'm not sure if it's cost effective to
build my own cabinets or to go out and buy some decent quality ready
made ones. As far as tools go I would have to buy a big router to
handle panel raising and either build or buy a "real" router table (I
am now using the Porter Cable entry level "table" with a PC 691).
Then, there is the cost of materials. My wife wants cherry and I know
it's not cheap. The cost of hardware is obscene and all the other wood
for drawers, shelves and carcasses will add up to a small fortune.

I know I will really enjoy the challenge and feel a major sense of
accomplishment but I'm not sure if it's worth it if I can buy ready
mades for half the price. Has anyone here done a serious cost
comparison?

Also, any advice about ways to save money would be appreciated. I am
planning on building face frame cabinets with raised panel doors and
LOTS of drawers. I can get cherry at my local lumber yard but it costs
a fortune (finished on all 4 sides). I have a jointer and planer but
no source for unfinished kiln dried cherry (I live in NY's Hudson
Valley).

Thanks in advance,
Chuck

I really don't think building your own would cost more than buying good
quality ready-made cabinets, even if you have to purchase a few tools to
do it. On the other hand, you probably won't save a tremendous amount by
doing it yourself either. If I were you. I would base the decision on
whether or not it was something I Really wanted to do.

"Charlie M. 1958" wrote in message
...
Chuck wrote:
We are planning to redo our kitchen in a year or two. We'll be doing
most of it ourselves, including building the cabinets. I have been
building my skills and my tool collection and think I am just about
ready for this task. We have remodeled another kitchen in the past
using ready made cabinets.

I have one big question though. I'm not sure if it's cost effective to
build my own cabinets or to go out and buy some decent quality ready
made ones. As far as tools go I would have to buy a big router to
handle panel raising and either build or buy a "real" router table (I
am now using the Porter Cable entry level "table" with a PC 691).
Then, there is the cost of materials. My wife wants cherry and I know
it's not cheap. The cost of hardware is obscene and all the other wood
for drawers, shelves and carcasses will add up to a small fortune.

I know I will really enjoy the challenge and feel a major sense of
accomplishment but I'm not sure if it's worth it if I can buy ready
mades for half the price. Has anyone here done a serious cost
comparison?

Also, any advice about ways to save money would be appreciated. I am
planning on building face frame cabinets with raised panel doors and
LOTS of drawers. I can get cherry at my local lumber yard but it costs
a fortune (finished on all 4 sides). I have a jointer and planer but
no source for unfinished kiln dried cherry (I live in NY's Hudson
Valley).

Thanks in advance,
Chuck

I really don't think building your own would cost more than buying good
quality ready-made cabinets, even if you have to purchase a few tools to
do it. On the other hand, you probably won't save a tremendous amount by
doing it yourself either. If I were you. I would base the decision on
whether or not it was something I Really wanted to do.

I've remodelled a couple of kitchens myself. What you get from doing the
cabinets yourself are custom sizes, custom materials
and you can do unusual stuff. If you contract out for custom cabinets they
will be much more expensive than if you do them yourself.
Comparing the cost to "off the shelf home depot cabinets" .. you probably
are'nt saving much. It might even cost more for your
own depnding on what sort of materials you decide to use.

Mike

I have one big question though. I'm not sure if it's cost effective to
build my own cabinets or to go out and buy some decent quality ready
made ones.

It sure can be. 5 years ago I did my kitchen in Maple, 17 doors and 13
drawers for a sense of scale.

I used plywood carcases and solid wood doors drawers and face frames

Rough costs: $800 plywood ($65/sheet) $800 solids ($3.25/bf rough cut) $600
in hardware. Oh yeah, $2500 for granite :-(.

Even if you count the $1800 cabinet saw (was going to buy it anyway) and a
new planer. I'm sure that I am well ahead


As far as tools go I would have to buy a big router to
handle panel raising and either build or buy a "real" router table (I
am now using the Porter Cable entry level "table" with a PC 691).

What kind of table saw do you have? You *Need* a table saw for this project.

Then, there is the cost of materials. My wife wants cherry and I know
it's not cheap. The cost of hardware is obscene and all the other wood
for drawers, shelves and carcasses will add up to a small fortune.

You can find reasonable cost hardware if you shop around. I was able to find
knobs that I really liked for close to a buck a piece.

Also, any advice about ways to save money would be appreciated. I am
planning on building face frame cabinets with raised panel doors and
LOTS of drawers. I can get cherry at my local lumber yard but it costs
a fortune (finished on all 4 sides). I have a jointer and planer but
no source for unfinished kiln dried cherry (I live in NY's Hudson
Valley).

You are just not looking hard enough; it's out there. Search for "hardwood".

As other have said, you really have to enjoy the process to make it
worthwhile. One other consideration: Do you have adequate shop space to pull
it off?

-Steve


--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Unless you have a "secret" cache of free wood and hardware, it would
be impossible to duplicate a plant build cabinet and come close to
their cost.

The finishing is the real killer in my opinion.

I think most of the average woodworkers can build a nice wall cabinet
with basic tools.

The doors present another problem.

A nice raised panel door while not difficult to build requires
some very accurate machined materials. These materials are not
easy to come by and not easy to produce in large numbers.

My kitchen is a fairly modest affair and it contains 53 raised
panel doors of various sizes. I could not imagine building 53
doors in a reasonable amount of time or where I would put them
when I was finished. Most pro's farm that step out completely.

That brings up another point, where do you put an entire seperate
kitchen in your shop ?

This has been beat to death on this list many times, but at the
end of the day it comes down to "I want to do this" compared to
"this makes no sense at all".

I have all the tools and a 1500 sqft shop.

I will be buying premium cabinets and doing the install
myself.





Chuck wrote:

I have one big question though. I'm not sure if it's cost effective to
build my own cabinets or to go out and buy some decent quality ready
made ones. As far as tools go I would have to buy a big router to
handle panel raising and either build or buy a "real" router table (I
am now using the Porter Cable entry level "table" with a PC 691).
Then, there is the cost of materials. My wife wants cherry and I know
it's not cheap. The cost of hardware is obscene and all the other wood
for drawers, shelves and carcasses will add up to a small fortune.

Hmmm.....

Maybe it's just me.

I have what I call the "Significant Other" factor. The love of my
life can be sweet and wonderful most of the time, but she can also be
impatient, demanding, and very unpleasant when something is disturbing
the karma of the castle.

If the project is outside, she can be very patient. If it is inside,
we need a strong, realistic timetable that I am willing to commit to
without offering any excuses.

I say screw the cost. If the queen ain't happy, the king doesn't
stand a chance. Misery ensues.

Don't underestimate the size of the task. It isn't brain surgery or
piano building, but it certainly can have its challenges. Even when I
go to a homeowner's home and they show me homebuilt cabinets (some
quite good) they don't have the finishing skills to compliment their
woodworking skills, and some build great cabinets and don't know the
little tricks to hang or set them properly. End result: not so good.

I would take on a smaller cabinet first, and time myself. Rip out
that old vanity in the bathroom, rebuild one to your mutual liking,
and keep careful costs and an honest record of your time, including
rounding up all materials, waste (all those off cuts really add up for
certain sizes), cost of finish materials, and the time spent
finishing. And I would hate to think that you would spend a lot of
time getting your cabinets just right, then go out there with a brush
and swab finish on them.

And an excellent point brought up by Steve above, do you have the shop
space to accomodate all the cabinets, and then all the cabinets when
finishing them?

Personally speaking, even as a contractor, unless I was going to die
in the house I would probably buy the cabinets. That doesn't
necessarily mean going to HD or Lowe's, but maybe to a cabinet man in
your town. He can supply you with samples of his work, and you can
talk to his customers. I have a guy here in town that made me give up
building any kind of cabinet for clients, as this is all he does all
day long. He has an enormous shop, has a few old timers that have
been with him for a while and he pays them by the piece. He is fast,
too. Quality, excellent. (As a sidebar, he is getting old himself,
and may be out of the biz soon... crap.... )

If I were to build anything, I think I would build carcasses, then buy
the doors somewhere. They are all over on the net. When you buy a
door online (or locally if you have a shop there) you will most likely
get a quality product at a reasonable price. Carcasses are fast to
build. Building your own doors means that not only do you have to have
the correct machinery to build it, but you must deal with the
challenges that the materials you obtain locally present.

With a shop built/purchased door, you are dealing with a product that
is finish ready, sanded, without major defects, square, and hopefully
built with the wood at the correct moisture level and stored
accordingly. Homebulilt finished wood doors stacked in a garage can
do some really squirelly things over just a month or two.

Whatever you do, good luck. There are guys here that build there own
and it works for them quite well. And a quick search of this newgroup
will give you the proper books to get you on your way (don't forget
the ones on finishing). This topic comes up frequently, so there is
an evening's reading here on this group.

Robert

Chuck wrote:

I have one big question though. I'm not sure if it's cost effective to
build my own cabinets or to go out and buy some decent quality ready
made ones.

Another thing to consider is what a wide range of prices ready-made
cabinets come in. About a year and a half ago, when we remodeled thanks
to Hurricane Katrina, we went with fairly high-end Kemper cabinets
(plywood sides, dovetailed drawers)in maple. A kitchen and den setup
that consists of 33 raised panel doors and 17 drawer fronts, ran well
over $20K just for cabinets (no countertops or installation). A set that
would be perfectly acceptable to most people could probably be had for
1/2 that, if you don't mind skimping on some of the details. So it
really depends on what you want to end up with.

In article . com, Chuck wrote:
We are planning to redo our kitchen in a year or two. We'll be doing
most of it ourselves, including building the cabinets. I have been
building my skills and my tool collection and think I am just about
ready for this task. We have remodeled another kitchen in the past
using ready made cabinets.

I have one big question though. I'm not sure if it's cost effective to
build my own cabinets or to go out and buy some decent quality ready
made ones.

It depends how you value your time. If you put any kind of
realistic price on an hour of your labor it's exceedingly
unlikely that you can save any money compared to simply
buying some good quality cabinets.

Although cabinets are a major item, that only one of many
items to be addressed when completely remodeling a kitchen.
Personally, I would take the view that my time and skills
would be better invested in other aspects of the overall
project. Items that you can't buy ready-made, off-the-shelf.

And even in the case of the cabinets, you might consider
buying some more basic cabinets and enhancing them. For
example, my own home came with some very solid cabinets
with really crappy interiors. I've recently had some fun
lining them with laminate to provide easy-to-clean inside
surfaces.

Of course, if you REALLY want to make the things, go ahead
and do it. But also consider what you might be able to
accomplish with all that time to create an even nicer
kitchen. Trust me, if you're going the gut the existing
kitchen there will be plenty of scope to deploy your
energy and craftsmanship even if you buy ready made
cabinets ;-)

--
|~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|
| Malcolm Hoar "The more I practice, the luckier I get". |
| Gary Player. |
| http://www.malch.com/ Shpx gur PQN. |
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"Chuck" wrote
We are planning to redo our kitchen in a year or two. We'll be doing
most of it ourselves, including building the cabinets. I have been
building my skills and my tool collection and think I am just about
ready for this task. We have remodeled another kitchen in the past
using ready made cabinets.

I have one big question though. I'm not sure if it's cost effective to
build my own cabinets or to go out and buy some decent quality ready
made ones.

Thanks in advance,
Chuck

I built our cabinets and saved quite bit, even after the purchase of some
tools (mostly bits and blades).
Since I didn't have a lot of work room, I did the upper cabinets first and
installed them, then the base cabinets.
The finish I used (and continue to use on most projects) is: a coat of Watco
Danish oil, two coats of poly (I prefer satin finish)
That finish is easy to maintain and repair (IMO) It's also easy to apply.
There were several reasons for my decision to do my own.
1. I don't like the finish on ready mades (too thin, and usually lacquer)
2. Most aren't sturdy enough for me. (material too thin, drawers slides not
strong enough, etc)
3. Save money (on the quality I wanted)
4. I enjoy wood working

Go for it and good luck.

Max

On Nov 2, 11:43 am, "
wrote:
Hmmm.....

Maybe it's just me.

I have what I call the "Significant Other" factor. The love of my
life can be sweet and wonderful most of the time, but she can also be
impatient, demanding, and very unpleasant when something is disturbing
the karma of the castle.

If the project is outside, she can be very patient. If it is inside,
we need a strong, realistic timetable that I am willing to commit to
without offering any excuses.

I say screw the cost. If the queen ain't happy, the king doesn't
stand a chance. Misery ensues.


You are a very wise man. I am in the process of trying to negotiate a
deal where she gets to buy the dining room set and I (hopefully) get
to build the toddler's bedroom set.

Chuck, I have done this on several occasions and helped to build original
kitchens.

YOU CAN SAVE A TON OF MONEY.

I estimate you can take your cost in materials and multiply that by "at
least" 5 and be on the cheap end of having the cabinets prebuilt and
installed.

I did my first kitchen about 19 years ago and to save on space and where to
store cabinets I built a section at a time and when that section was
finished I removed the old cabinets for that section and installed the new
ones. The kitchen was never unusable until I did the section with the sink,
which I was down for a day.


"Chuck" wrote in message
ups.com...
We are planning to redo our kitchen in a year or two. We'll be doing
most of it ourselves, including building the cabinets. I have been
building my skills and my tool collection and think I am just about
ready for this task. We have remodeled another kitchen in the past
using ready made cabinets.

I have one big question though. I'm not sure if it's cost effective to
build my own cabinets or to go out and buy some decent quality ready
made ones. As far as tools go I would have to buy a big router to
handle panel raising and either build or buy a "real" router table (I
am now using the Porter Cable entry level "table" with a PC 691).
Then, there is the cost of materials. My wife wants cherry and I know
it's not cheap. The cost of hardware is obscene and all the other wood
for drawers, shelves and carcasses will add up to a small fortune.

I know I will really enjoy the challenge and feel a major sense of
accomplishment but I'm not sure if it's worth it if I can buy ready
mades for half the price. Has anyone here done a serious cost
comparison?

Also, any advice about ways to save money would be appreciated. I am
planning on building face frame cabinets with raised panel doors and
LOTS of drawers. I can get cherry at my local lumber yard but it costs
a fortune (finished on all 4 sides). I have a jointer and planer but
no source for unfinished kiln dried cherry (I live in NY's Hudson
Valley).

Thanks in advance,
Chuck

wrote in message
ups.com...
Hmmm.....

Maybe it's just me.

If I were to build anything, I think I would build carcasses, then buy
the doors somewhere. They are all over on the net.

My sentiments exactly. I've ordered MDF doors and drawer boxes and
fronts from these people:

http://www.lakesidemoulding.com/


When you buy a
door online (or locally if you have a shop there) you will most likely
get a quality product at a reasonable price. Carcasses are fast to
build. Building your own doors means that not only do you have to have
the correct machinery to build it, but you must deal with the
challenges that the materials you obtain locally present.


--
NuWave Dave in Houston

On Fri, 02 Nov 2007 14:05:13 -0000, Chuck wrote:

I'd buy them at HD or something and install them...
Unless you want something really different or special, you can't make them for
what you can buy them for..

Instant gratification isn't something a wood working person wants, but in this
case, I'd go for just that..

I don't know what your lady is like but if mine didn't have a functional kitchen
for a while, I damn sure wouldn't what that to be MY fault... YMWV

Like the song says, "If mama ain't happy, nobody's happy"

We are planning to redo our kitchen in a year or two. We'll be doing
most of it ourselves, including building the cabinets. I have been
building my skills and my tool collection and think I am just about
ready for this task. We have remodeled another kitchen in the past
using ready made cabinets.

I have one big question though. I'm not sure if it's cost effective to
build my own cabinets or to go out and buy some decent quality ready
made ones. As far as tools go I would have to buy a big router to
handle panel raising and either build or buy a "real" router table (I
am now using the Porter Cable entry level "table" with a PC 691).
Then, there is the cost of materials. My wife wants cherry and I know
it's not cheap. The cost of hardware is obscene and all the other wood
for drawers, shelves and carcasses will add up to a small fortune.



mac

Please remove splinters before emailing

"Chuck" wrote in message

I have one big question though. I'm not sure if it's cost effective to
build my own cabinets or to go out and buy some decent quality ready
made ones.

As you can see by the responses ... it depends.

What it boils down to is expertise, equipment, time, and fortitude.

That said, if you've ever done it once, you can categorically say that you
can indeed on sucessive ocassions; if you've not done it before, it's a
gamble ... particularly throwing in the "fortitude" factor.

Use the following 'real life example' drawings (each drawing is one leg of
an "L" shaped kitchen area) as a rough 'go by' for material cost (updated
today) for a "custom" build, in new construction, in this neck of the woods
(Houston, TX):

http://www.e-woodshop.net/images/381...enElevWest.JPG
http://www.e-woodshop.net/images/3811%20DeskMaster.JPG

You're looking at approximately 32' of upper and lower kitchen cabinets, and
a 3.5' x 7' island not shown.

Face frame cabinets - red oak cabinet grade plywood carcase, with red oak
rails and stiles; drawer/door fronts - raised panel solid red oak; drawers -
5/8" hard maple sides, 1/4" maple ply bottoms.

Material cost for boxes (16) and drawers (22): $2276.00
Door/drawer fronts w/slides & hinges: $2550.51

Factoring in the island as a 10' entity, that is roughly $115/LF for uppers
and lowers _BEFORE_ installation, finish, countertops, backsplash.

A trim carpenter "labor only" bid to fill the same space with 'site built'
cabinets, but a MUCH inferior product - $3700 +/-.

If you have the tools, expertise, time, and MOST importantly _FORTITUDE_, it
is not only doable, but can indeed save money.

If you're lacking any one of these, you will most likely come out ahead by
farming out all, or part, of the job.

And indeed, you may want to pick your poison, do those things you feel
comfortable doing, and outsource the remainder ... particularly the doors
and drawer fronts which will get you into all kinds of issues if they are
not done "straight, square and true". I've done it all, but I now outsource
the latter as a matter of "equipment" and "time" in the above equation.

.... and, as far as the space issue, you can rent a high and dry,
unconditioned storage space in most areas of the country for way less than
$100/month ... and BTW, that's where the above cabinets, drawers, doors and
drawer fronts are residing, real time, at the moment ... as my shop is only
18' x 18'.


--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/25/07
KarlC@ (the obvious)

Wow, lots of input but I can't resist.

1. Build the boxes, buy the doors and drawer fronts and have the doors
pre-drilled for cup hinges.

2. Find a hardwood supplier that is selling to the cabinet industry to
get quality ply and and S21E hardwood stock for the face frames and
any other hardwood components. They will usually sell to the public
via will call if you check around. Make molding from this also or buy
it premade.

3. If going with Cherry get the doors and drawer fronts unstained but
prefinished. After they arrive, practice finishing metods and
materials until you can match the finish for the boxes. Some door
companies will sell you matching finish materials.

4. Build and store all the cabinet boxes (face frames applied) and
drawer boxes built and installed before starting any demolition work
in the kitchen or ordering. Use a 32mm system for the shelf pins,
properly aligned so the door hinges can use the shelf pin holes. You
can get data from the door company about placement requirements.

5. Either build the drawer boxes from Baltic Birch (low cost) or
Maple. This can be a lot of fun, get a dovetail jig and do it up nice.
I'd suggest NOT doevtailing into the drawer front but rather apply
them to a 4 sided box, but if you are adventerous enough go ahead with
a real high-end drawer box setup.

On Nov 2, 7:05 am, Chuck wrote:
We are planning to redo our kitchen in a year or two. We'll be doing
most of it ourselves, including building the cabinets. I have been
building my skills and my tool collection and think I am just about
ready for this task. We have remodeled another kitchen in the past
using ready made cabinets.

I have one big question though. I'm not sure if it's cost effective to
build my own cabinets or to go out and buy some decent quality ready
made ones. As far as tools go I would have to buy a big router to
handle panel raising and either build or buy a "real" router table (I
am now using the Porter Cable entry level "table" with a PC 691).
Then, there is the cost of materials. My wife wants cherry and I know
it's not cheap. The cost of hardware is obscene and all the other wood
for drawers, shelves and carcasses will add up to a small fortune.

I know I will really enjoy the challenge and feel a major sense of
accomplishment but I'm not sure if it's worth it if I can buy ready
mades for half the price. Has anyone here done a serious cost
comparison?

Also, any advice about ways to save money would be appreciated. I am
planning on building face frame cabinets with raised panel doors and
LOTS of drawers. I can get cherry at my local lumber yard but it costs
a fortune (finished on all 4 sides). I have a jointer and planer but
no source for unfinished kiln dried cherry (I live in NY's Hudson
Valley).

Thanks in advance,
Chuck

wrote

too. Quality, excellent. (As a sidebar, he is getting old himself,
and may be out of the biz soon... crap.... )

An opportunity presents itself?

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/25/07
KarlC@ (the obvious)

My 2 cents!!!!!
If your just removing and replacing with the same sizes, styles and
shapes,
buy them. However, you now have the opportunity to create spaces for
uncommon
sized items. For instance, I built a cabinet for a card table a 4
chairs that is in the kitchen
It's skinny and the side of it is also the back of a desk. If I where
to fill that area with
store bought cabinets, I would only have a desk. On the side of one
cabinet I had 3" to
play with, so I built a door with shelve that now hold all the spices.
I can't tell you how much
space that saves. If you build, don't be common.
Lou

On Fri, 02 Nov 2007 14:05:13 -0000, Chuck wrote:

Has anyone here done a serious cost
comparison?


Fifteen years ago I built my own cabinets, solid oak faces and plywood
everywhere else. Wood and hardware run about $1600, and I bought
about six thousand dollars worth of tools, saw, shaper, jointer, etc.
My estimates for what my wife wanted ran from $11,000 to $$18,000.
By building ourselves we got exactly what we wanted, and way cheaper.
Of course we had our kitchen tore apart for almost seven months as I
had to do the work on weekends and at night. That's a big minus!

In article , BeanCounter wrote:
By building ourselves we got exactly what we wanted, and way cheaper.
Of course we had our kitchen tore apart for almost seven months as I
had to do the work on weekends and at night. That's a big minus!

Potentially a big problem! With three kids, SWMBO gave me two
weeks to complete a (partial) kitchen remodel. I made it but it
was two weeks of hell :-(

--
|~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|
| Malcolm Hoar "The more I practice, the luckier I get". |
| Gary Player. |
| http://www.malch.com/ Shpx gur PQN. |
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Wow! I want to thank you guys for a lot of great advice! I really
enjoy woodworking and after seeing what was written here, I am pretty
sure I want to go ahead and take the plunge. My plan is to build the
cabinets and stockpile them in the garage until they are all ready for
installation, then start the remodel. I can put a dehumidifier in
there for humid times and the area is semi heated (never below 40
degrees).

I have a decent TS (Ridgid TS3650 which I really like) and everything
else except the ballsy router and decent router table (which I want
anyway).

I particularly liked the idea about starting on a smaller project to
see how that goes. I have a vanity and cabinet project that fits the
bill perfectly. After seeing how that goes, I will know better if this
is really something I want to do 100% from scratch or farm some of it
out.

Thanks again,
Chuck

Well, you got tons of advice, and there's only one thing I'd add, is that
you'd better get the lady of the house involved. My wife is just plain
unhappy with any project that makes a major mess for more than a week. I've
had to clean up my act a lot to get things done around here.

I suggest that you estimate the time start to finish (and if you're like me,
add 25% for over-optimism and unforeseen problems) then ask SWMBO if she can
live with a torn up kitchen for that long. Might as well know which way the
wind blows before you're committed to the project.

I've done two kitchens, and I did get tired of eating out of the microwave
and the electric fry pan, and washing dishes in the bath tub. (I either
bought or had cupboards custom made, and they were still long drawn out
jobs.).

Good luck, and above all, enjoy the process.

Old Guy



"Chuck" wrote in message
ups.com...
We are planning to redo our kitchen in a year or two. We'll be doing
most of it ourselves, including building the cabinets. I have been
building my skills and my tool collection and think I am just about
ready for this task. We have remodeled another kitchen in the past
using ready made cabinets.

I have one big question though. I'm not sure if it's cost effective to
build my own cabinets or to go out and buy some decent quality ready
made ones. As far as tools go I would have to buy a big router to
handle panel raising and either build or buy a "real" router table (I
am now using the Porter Cable entry level "table" with a PC 691).
Then, there is the cost of materials. My wife wants cherry and I know
it's not cheap. The cost of hardware is obscene and all the other wood
for drawers, shelves and carcasses will add up to a small fortune.

I know I will really enjoy the challenge and feel a major sense of
accomplishment but I'm not sure if it's worth it if I can buy ready
mades for half the price. Has anyone here done a serious cost
comparison?

Also, any advice about ways to save money would be appreciated. I am
planning on building face frame cabinets with raised panel doors and
LOTS of drawers. I can get cherry at my local lumber yard but it costs
a fortune (finished on all 4 sides). I have a jointer and planer but
no source for unfinished kiln dried cherry (I live in NY's Hudson
Valley).

Thanks in advance,
Chuck

On Nov 2, 8:06 pm, "Old guy" wrote:
Well, you got tons of advice, and there's only one thing I'd add, is that
you'd better get the lady of the house involved. My wife is just plain
unhappy with any project that makes a major mess for more than a week.

I'm going to go kiss my wife now...

We tore our main bath down to the studs on July 5th. Since then I've
rewired, installed a fan, new tub, new stool, tiled, painted, and
nearly have new oak wainscoting ready to install. What's missing? No
sink since July 6th. (The old vanity, in fact, is out by the garage.)
We found a nice vessel sink that will require a new vanity, which I
just haven't had time to start yet. My wife hasn't complained once,
though my 6 year old did ask why we decided not to have a sink any
more.

Re the kitchen, we did most of a remodel five years ago but did not do
doors/drawer fronts at that time. Reading this thread prompted me to
get some quotes on doors, but the ballpark figures I got in the
process lead me to believe I can do the 16 doors and four drawers for
a tiny fraction of the cost I'd pay someone else. I have about 400bf
of oak on hand, and since we'd do flat-panel shaker doors I could use
plywood panels. The only tooling I'd likely buy is one of the new
Amana mission sets, and that's really only for convenience. So the
total project would cost me about four sheets of 1/2" oak, a sheet of
baltic birch for drawers, and all the required hardware. Probably
something in the range of $750 total, unless I decide to add some new
cabinets.

Happily, my wife will be just fine with me doing one wall at a time
over the course of the winter.

-kiwanda

I live in western Wisconsin. There are sawmills about every 5 miles in
every direction around here. Some are hobby mills, circle or band, and
some are commercial. You must have them in your area, too. Try
attending some local threshing (or "Steam") shows where they often have
a sawmill. talk to the operator or some of the people standing around
who are remarking about the finer points of the way the operator is
going about his business. I guarantee that you will find out where to
get wood.

For instance: I see a guy every month at our "retirement breakfast"
who just loves to saw wood. At present, he's got a pretty good sized
barn just about full. A LOT of red Oak. But he just stickers it up.
And then goes out and saws more.

Another friend has a portable Jackson mill that he takes to threshing
shows. One of the problems he has is finding enough wood to saw for 2
days in a row. I didnt' realize that until just recently, and have
told him that if that problem ever comes up again, I will fix him up
from my own woods if I have to drop a tree or two on the day of the event.
For furniture, you'll need kiln dried wood, I guess, but if you do
find a sawyer, he'll also know where to get that done unless you want to
dry it yourself. We have a commercial hardwood sawmill 3 miles away
that has its own kiln (for special wood that I might buy from them) and
my sawyer friend knows where to go for "hobby lots" of drying.

All I'm saying is: If you really want to build the cabinets and if part
of the "chase" is to see who inexpensively, from a cash outlay
standpoint you can do it, then take some time to get to know your local
sawyers. You said you live in Hudson Valley NY area, but not whether
you are in a huge metro area or in a small town. Either way, it can't
be too far to the "country". As far as having Cherry around, aren't
you in the part of the country where good old "George" chopped down the
Cherry Tree?

Check this link for shows in your area of the country (just page down to
find "New York"). You don't even have to wait for next year's show to
meet people. Make contact with the event managers and ask questions:

http://www.usgennet.org/usa/topic/st...day/Shows.html

Pete Stanaitis
------------------------


Chuck wrote:

I can get cherry at my local lumber yard but it costs
a fortune (finished on all 4 sides). I have a jointer and planer but
no source for unfinished kiln dried cherry (I live in NY's Hudson
Valley).

Thanks in advance,
Chuck

"Pat Barber" wrote: snip

I'm assuming you didn't get my e-mail that you requested? Let me know.

BTW, it's pretty easy to figure out my addy from the below if you still want
to ask that question.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/25/07
KarlC@ (the obvious)

On Fri, 02 Nov 2007 14:05:13 -0000, Chuck wrote:

We are planning to redo our kitchen in a year or two. We'll be doing
most of it ourselves, including building the cabinets. I have been
building my skills and my tool collection and think I am just about
ready for this task. We have remodeled another kitchen in the past
using ready made cabinets.

I have one big question though. I'm not sure if it's cost effective to
build my own cabinets or to go out and buy some decent quality ready
made ones.
-snip-

Thanks in advance,
Chuck

I am currently about 80% thru my kitchen remodel. I am doing
everything (but the gas line) myself, with scattered help from friends
when 2 hands simply aren't enough.

I have rewired the entire kitchen, adding several circuits (the house
was built in 1961 and wasn't bad, but nothing up to today's needs).
Added a ton of lighting. I tore down an exterior (plaster) wall (to
the masonry structure, not daylight), insulated, and rebuilt it (made
running the wiring much easier). Plumbing was pretty much left alone
except for a new water line to fridge (and installing new sink and
such). Tore down the soffits and closed in the holes. Built(ing) the
cabinets and installed(ing) them. Gee, doesn't sound like as much
work as it turned out to be. ;-)

It's an interesting experience, and I didn't learn enough the first
time I did it.

I an currently in the "why the heck did I do this, again" mode
(primarily because of the amount of time it's dragged on thru), as
well as anxious for it to be finished - seeing the light-tunnel pair.

There were a number of memory lapses between the first job (~10 years
ago) and now.

That said, I'd do it again (build my own cabinets) but with some of
the variations suggested in this thread, depending on the
circumstances (a big one being, 'forever' house or not).

My biggest hurdle the first time and second, has been the finishing.
THE FINISHING IS A ROYAL PAIN!!

I made the mistake of trying something new, on this relatively large
project (one day soon I hope to post a few pics). Lesson: consider
whether you want to add in yet another element to the amount of time
and effort it's gonna take.

Used poly the first time around - brushed on. Pain.

I switched from brushed poly to sprayed (HVLP) lacquer and it's been
quite the experience.

I had A LOT of help from the folks here. It woulda been nicer if some
of them had dropped by to stand at my side whilst I figured things
out. ;-)

The time I saved spraying fast drying lacquer has been well offset
with the trials and tribulations.

But, the issues with the finishing probably vary with the route you
take to resolve them. I sometimes (no, make that, in hindsight, -
often) took the long and windy road.

Personally, I got much better quality cabinets, that suit my needs,
some new tools, a few more lessons, for a good bit less than I'd a
spent buying cabinets (unless they were from Ikea or some such). This
does not take into consideration time. I'll take the lessons and
hopefully do it better next time...


Renata

Renata wrote

Personally, I got much better quality cabinets, that suit my needs,
some new tools, a few more lessons, for a good bit less than I'd a
spent buying cabinets (unless they were from Ikea or some such). This
does not take into consideration time. I'll take the lessons and
hopefully do it better next time...

Good post. To the singular question "Is it cost effective to build my own
kitchen cabinets?", the answer, for even a minimally skilled woodworker with
the time and tools, is almost always a resounding 'yes'. But, as you've
pointed out, the devil is indeed in the details for even the skilled
woodworker.


--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 11/4/07
KarlC@ (the obvious)

On Nov 6, 7:24 am, Blue&White wrote:

[snipped excellent post for brevity]

Personally, I got much better quality cabinets, that suit my needs,
some new tools, a few more lessons, for a good bit less than I'd a
spent buying cabinets (unless they were from Ikea or some such). This
does not take into consideration time. I'll take the lessons and
hopefully do it better next time...

When building your own is approached with some good planning. the
results can be very rewarding both financially and emotionally. The
fit and finish are indeed in the details, as Swing points out. Not
only is the finish visually very important, but it also determines how
well the job wears and how long it will be before you'll have to do it
again. (Even though it looks 'good enough'...put on that extra coat.)

IKEA sells Staron solid surface countertops and as a result, I see
quite a few IKEA modular cabinets. I don't know much about how they
price out, but they are heads and shoulders above the Home Depot RTA
cabinets in quality....and certainly more interesting to look at. But,
like anything else, it all has to do with the care taken during the
installation.

r

On Nov 6, 7:24 am, Blue&White wrote:
On Fri, 02 Nov 2007 14:05:13 -0000, Chuck wrote:
We are planning to redo our kitchen in a year or two. We'll be doing
most of it ourselves, including building the cabinets. I have been
building my skills and my tool collection and think I am just about
ready for this task. We have remodeled another kitchen in the past
using ready made cabinets.

I have one big question though. I'm not sure if it's cost effective to
build my own cabinets or to go out and buy some decent quality ready
made ones.
-snip-

Thanks in advance,
Chuck

I am currently about 80% thru my kitchen remodel. I am doing
everything (but the gas line) myself, with scattered help from friends
when 2 hands simply aren't enough.

I have rewired the entire kitchen, adding several circuits (the house
was built in 1961 and wasn't bad, but nothing up to today's needs).
Added a ton of lighting. I tore down an exterior (plaster) wall (to
the masonry structure, not daylight), insulated, and rebuilt it (made
running the wiring much easier). Plumbing was pretty much left alone
except for a new water line to fridge (and installing new sink and
such). Tore down the soffits and closed in the holes. Built(ing) the
cabinets and installed(ing) them. Gee, doesn't sound like as much
work as it turned out to be. ;-)

It's an interesting experience, and I didn't learn enough the first
time I did it.

I an currently in the "why the heck did I do this, again" mode
(primarily because of the amount of time it's dragged on thru), as
well as anxious for it to be finished - seeing the light-tunnel pair.

There were a number of memory lapses between the first job (~10 years
ago) and now.

That said, I'd do it again (build my own cabinets) but with some of
the variations suggested in this thread, depending on the
circumstances (a big one being, 'forever' house or not).

My biggest hurdle the first time and second, has been the finishing.
THE FINISHING IS A ROYAL PAIN!!

I made the mistake of trying something new, on this relatively large
project (one day soon I hope to post a few pics). Lesson: consider
whether you want to add in yet another element to the amount of time
and effort it's gonna take.

Used poly the first time around - brushed on. Pain.

I switched from brushed poly to sprayed (HVLP) lacquer and it's been
quite the experience.

I had A LOT of help from the folks here. It woulda been nicer if some
of them had dropped by to stand at my side whilst I figured things
out. ;-)

The time I saved spraying fast drying lacquer has been well offset
with the trials and tribulations.

But, the issues with the finishing probably vary with the route you
take to resolve them. I sometimes (no, make that, in hindsight, -
often) took the long and windy road.

Personally, I got much better quality cabinets, that suit my needs,
some new tools, a few more lessons, for a good bit less than I'd a
spent buying cabinets (unless they were from Ikea or some such). This
does not take into consideration time. I'll take the lessons and
hopefully do it better next time...

Renata

I am thinking of finishing by brushing on Sam Maloof's poly/oil
mixture. I have had excellent luck with tung oil in the past but think
kitchen cabinets need more protection than just oil. I have found tung
oil to be very user friendly and never have problems with dust
pimples. Since I haven't used the poly/oil mixture before, I wouldn't
mind hearing what exepeiences everyone here has had with it and if
they would recommend this finish for kitchen cabinets.

Thanks,
Chuck

"Chuck" wrote

I am thinking of finishing by brushing on Sam Maloof's poly/oil
mixture. I have had excellent luck with tung oil in the past but think
kitchen cabinets need more protection than just oil. I have found tung
oil to be very user friendly and never have problems with dust
pimples. Since I haven't used the poly/oil mixture before, I wouldn't
mind hearing what exepeiences everyone here has had with it and if
they would recommend this finish for kitchen cabinets.

I've used Sam Maloof's finish extensively on "furniture" projects, but would
not consider it for kitchen cabinets myself because, IMO, it would be too
high maintenance for a kitchen environment.

And, the jury is still out as to whether you can add a film finish, say with
shellac/lacquer, to the oil/poly with any degree of lasting success.

IOW, I'm of the opinion that any oil/poly/wax finish alone would not be
practical for a kitchen.

.... then again, that and a quarter may buy you a stick of gum.

YMMV


--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 11/4/07
KarlC@ (the obvious)

In article , Blue&White wrote:
My biggest hurdle the first time and second, has been the finishing.
THE FINISHING IS A ROYAL PAIN!!

If you think that's bad, try re-finishing!!!

Used poly the first time around - brushed on. Pain.

Why?

I have recently refinished a ton of cabinets and a front
door. Also finished 8 custom shelves (completed a few
minutes ago, yeah!).

All of the above were done with brushed on poly. It was
quick, easy and satisfying. Key factors:

* Good prep, as always.

* Buy good quality full gloss oil based poly and be prepared
to thin it.

* Use a Woosters foam brush (available at Lowes). They
are just wonderful, IMO.

* Sand lightly (400 grit) between coats.

* Apply lots of thin coats -- I used 5 or 6.

* Personally, I don't like the plastic/wet look of poly
so I knock that down with some 0000 steel wool and wax.

If careful, I've found that I can apply two coats per
day provided the weather is decent and not too cold.

Sprayers can be a pain too. Lots of setup and clean up
plus it's easy to screw up big time!


--
|~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|
| Malcolm Hoar "The more I practice, the luckier I get". |
| Gary Player. |
| http://www.malch.com/ Shpx gur PQN. |
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Blue&White wrote:

My biggest hurdle the first time and second, has been the finishing.
THE FINISHING IS A ROYAL PAIN!!

In a slightly different direction...

The finish can always be outsourced. Although it does cut into the
overall dollar savings, I know several local pros who don't do
finishing. They do all the building and then send it on to a finisher.
The cabinets then come back to them for installation.

Talking to the finisher to arrange what grit to sand to, etc... so the
work is as ready to finish as possible, can keep the job in the
"reasonable" range.

On Nov 6, 1:40 pm, B A R R Y wrote:

ANIP

Talking to the finisher to arrange what grit to sand to, etc... so the
work is as ready to finish as possible, can keep the job in the
"reasonable" range.

Good advice. Prep is always a killer. I would also discuss finish
types, amount of coats of finish (including final thickness), finish
warranties, etc. I would also look strongly at the application
process as well as the brand of finish material.

Your finisher may also want all the doors off the cabinets, or even
give you a discount for delivering them to him that way. Some like to
finish off site, others when installed and trimmed out. All aspects
will affect the price.

Robert



Robert

On Tue, 06 Nov 2007 19:31:41 GMT, (Malcolm Hoar)
wrote:

In article , Blue&White wrote:
My biggest hurdle the first time and second, has been the finishing.
THE FINISHING IS A ROYAL PAIN!!

If you think that's bad, try re-finishing!!!

Used poly the first time around - brushed on. Pain.

Why?

-snip-

Because brushing, brushing, brushing, ad infinitum is Bo-ring. Came
out looking fine, held up real well, it seemed like the brushing never
ended.

Yes, spraying is not altogether simple, what with clean up and such,
but once you figure things out, it beats brushing by a LONG shot on
bigger projects.

I may end up brushing the last few drawer fronts (7 of 'em) and a
couple of doors since it's getting too cold to spray outside. I'm not
really set up to spray non water based stuff inside and it'd be more
trouble to do a set up than just brush the few remaining pieces.

Renata

And I thought I was the only one who always got butterflies in my stomach
when it came to finishing time??

Building my kitchen from scratch 2 years ago was the best overall
woodworking experience I have had in the 20 years I have been woodworking.
As most have mentioned, besides the experience, I got a solid well built
product that would have cost 3 times the "big box" store brands and saved
$30,000.

As for finishing, I was very happy with the application of a good quality
commercial water based poly applied with inexpensive HVLP gun run from a
medium sized air compressor. I brushed the face frames with one of Jeff
Jewitt's $30 synthetic brushes; worked great. If you have not checked out my
kitchen in the past 2 years, visit my site.

Good Luck,

Dennis Slabaugh, Hobbyist Woodworker
www.woodworkinghobby.com

wrote in message
ups.com...
On Nov 6, 1:40 pm, B A R R Y wrote:

ANIP

Talking to the finisher to arrange what grit to sand to, etc... so the
work is as ready to finish as possible, can keep the job in the
"reasonable" range.

Good advice. Prep is always a killer. I would also discuss finish
types, amount of coats of finish (including final thickness), finish
warranties, etc. I would also look strongly at the application
process as well as the brand of finish material.

Your finisher may also want all the doors off the cabinets, or even
give you a discount for delivering them to him that way. Some like to
finish off site, others when installed and trimmed out. All aspects
will affect the price.

Robert



Robert

Blue&White wrote:
On Fri, 02 Nov 2007 14:05:13 -0000, Chuck wrote:

We are planning to redo our kitchen in a year or two. We'll be doing
most of it ourselves, including building the cabinets. I have been
building my skills and my tool collection and think I am just about
ready for this task. We have remodeled another kitchen in the past
using ready made cabinets.

I have one big question though. I'm not sure if it's cost effective to
build my own cabinets or to go out and buy some decent quality ready
made ones.
-snip-
Thanks in advance,
Chuck

I am currently about 80% thru my kitchen remodel. I am doing
everything (but the gas line) myself, with scattered help from friends
when 2 hands simply aren't enough.

I have rewired the entire kitchen, adding several circuits (the house
was built in 1961 and wasn't bad, but nothing up to today's needs).
Added a ton of lighting. I tore down an exterior (plaster) wall (to
the masonry structure, not daylight), insulated, and rebuilt it (made
running the wiring much easier). Plumbing was pretty much left alone
except for a new water line to fridge (and installing new sink and
such). Tore down the soffits and closed in the holes. Built(ing) the
cabinets and installed(ing) them. Gee, doesn't sound like as much
work as it turned out to be. ;-)

It's an interesting experience, and I didn't learn enough the first
time I did it.

I an currently in the "why the heck did I do this, again" mode
(primarily because of the amount of time it's dragged on thru), as
well as anxious for it to be finished - seeing the light-tunnel pair.

There were a number of memory lapses between the first job (~10 years
ago) and now.

That said, I'd do it again (build my own cabinets) but with some of
the variations suggested in this thread, depending on the
circumstances (a big one being, 'forever' house or not).

My biggest hurdle the first time and second, has been the finishing.
THE FINISHING IS A ROYAL PAIN!!

I made the mistake of trying something new, on this relatively large
project (one day soon I hope to post a few pics). Lesson: consider
whether you want to add in yet another element to the amount of time
and effort it's gonna take.

Used poly the first time around - brushed on. Pain.

I switched from brushed poly to sprayed (HVLP) lacquer and it's been
quite the experience.

I had A LOT of help from the folks here. It woulda been nicer if some
of them had dropped by to stand at my side whilst I figured things
out. ;-)

The time I saved spraying fast drying lacquer has been well offset
with the trials and tribulations.

But, the issues with the finishing probably vary with the route you
take to resolve them. I sometimes (no, make that, in hindsight, -
often) took the long and windy road.

Personally, I got much better quality cabinets, that suit my needs,
some new tools, a few more lessons, for a good bit less than I'd a
spent buying cabinets (unless they were from Ikea or some such). This
does not take into consideration time. I'll take the lessons and
hopefully do it better next time...


Renata





I haven't seen anyone post what I did a
few years ago.

My SWMBO moved into my partially
finished house in the country. We live
in a pretty cold part of Canada, and the
place was only partially insulated. The
first winter near did her in. The second
winter she moved out to an apartment in
the city. I stayed in the apartment with
her during the week and came back to the
house on weekends to finish the renovation.

It included everything: bathroom
renovation, laundry room build, rewiring
of most of the house, drywall to about
70% of the house, flooring, painting,
establishment of new rooms and partitions.

As well, the kitchen was gutted
completely, including new cabinets,
stove, fridge, plumbing, etc.

In addition to being female and having
that strange requisite low tolerance
that women have for mess, she's got a
medium-level disability. That
combination would have killed our
relationship had she stayed in the house
during all that work.

She's an architect and has a decent
inner vision that allows her to design
things from a distance, so we used the
Internet for a lot of problem solving.

I'm not recommending this for everyone.
There aren't a lot of people that could
live that way. It's a much more
expensive solution. However, it worked
for us. When I was finished to a point
where she could be comfortable, she
moved back in and stayed.

This isn't a YMMV situation. This is
likely a one-of-a-very-few type of
situation. But - it did work out.

Now she's talking about an addition to
the side of the house. Sigh.

--
Tanus

This is not really a sig.

http://users.compzone.ca/george/shop/