I am thinking of making my own kitchen flat panel doors...and refacing the
cases. I have a good biscuit joiner and would like input on whether the
biscuit techniques is strong enough for kitchen cabinet doors...or should I
go with the traditional mortise and tenon assembly ?

Also..anyone know of a good site for detailed instructions/examples of a
good quality kitchen door assembly ?

Thanks, Tim

"TimR" wrote in message
I am thinking of making my own kitchen flat panel doors...and refacing
the
cases. I have a good biscuit joiner and would like input on whether the
biscuit techniques is strong enough for kitchen cabinet doors...or should
I
go with the traditional mortise and tenon assembly ?

With cabinet doors, stick with M&T. A few hundred years of a tried and true
joinery method is to be ignored at your own peril, IMO.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/01/06

"TimR" wrote in message
news:Wg7_g.33437$tO5.29953@fed1read10...
I am thinking of making my own kitchen flat panel doors...and refacing the
cases. I have a good biscuit joiner and would like input on whether the
biscuit techniques is strong enough for kitchen cabinet doors...or should
I
go with the traditional mortise and tenon assembly ?

Also..anyone know of a good site for detailed instructions/examples of a
good quality kitchen door assembly ?

Thanks, Tim


I vote for m&t or cope and stick. IMO biscuit joints don't have enough glue
surface. Your gluing end grain to long grain in a door.

Doors of any kind take an huge amount of stress over time. If you go
with cope and stick you'll have sufficent glue area to hold it
together. If you are talking mitered or butted then M&T is the way to
go.

I've seen studies where biscuits do add some strength similar to
tennons but no where near the same strength. I consider them only
valuable for alignment.


TimR wrote:
I am thinking of making my own kitchen flat panel doors...and refacing the
cases. I have a good biscuit joiner and would like input on whether the
biscuit techniques is strong enough for kitchen cabinet doors...or should I
go with the traditional mortise and tenon assembly ?

Also..anyone know of a good site for detailed instructions/examples of a
good quality kitchen door assembly ?

Thanks, Tim

TimR wrote:
: I am thinking of making my own kitchen flat panel doors...and refacing the
: cases. I have a good biscuit joiner and would like input on whether the
: biscuit techniques is strong enough for kitchen cabinet doors...or should I
: go with the traditional mortise and tenon assembly ?


I wouldn't hesitate to use biscuits. They're plenty strong
enough for this application.


-- Andy Barss

Andrew Barss wrote:
TimR wrote:
: I am thinking of making my own kitchen flat panel doors...and refacing the
: cases. I have a good biscuit joiner and would like input on whether the
: biscuit techniques is strong enough for kitchen cabinet doors...or should I
: go with the traditional mortise and tenon assembly ?


I wouldn't hesitate to use biscuits. They're plenty strong
enough for this application.


-- Andy Barss

Latest issue of Wood magazine rates biscuits as _barely_ stronger than
butt joints in all directions. Dowels were second in strength to M&T.

http://store.woodstore.net/november173.html

"RayV" wrote:


Andrew Barss wrote:
TimR wrote:
: I am thinking of making my own kitchen flat panel doors...and refacing the
: cases. I have a good biscuit joiner and would like input on whether the
: biscuit techniques is strong enough for kitchen cabinet doors...or should I
: go with the traditional mortise and tenon assembly ?


I wouldn't hesitate to use biscuits. They're plenty strong
enough for this application.


-- Andy Barss

Latest issue of Wood magazine rates biscuits as _barely_ stronger than
butt joints in all directions. Dowels were second in strength to M&T.

http://store.woodstore.net/november173.html

That's surprising. In fact, I don't believe it. I guess I will have to
buy the mag to read about their testing. VERY hard for me to believe
that the long-grain to long-grain gluing, even over the small area of
a biscuit, is not a big improvement over end-grain to long-grain
gluing of a plain butt joint. Maybe the problem is my impression of
the weakness of end-grain gluing. I've always accepted that as an
article of faith, but never tested it.
--
Alex -- Replace "nospam" with "mail" to reply by email. Checked infrequently.

Andrew Barss wrote:

TimR wrote:
: I am thinking of making my own kitchen flat panel doors...and refacing the
: cases. I have a good biscuit joiner and would like input on whether the
: biscuit techniques is strong enough for kitchen cabinet doors...or should I
: go with the traditional mortise and tenon assembly ?


I wouldn't hesitate to use biscuits. They're plenty strong
enough for this application.


I agree. Although my personal bias is in line with Swingman's, I think
you have the right practical answer.

Data point: I built a "doggie gate" from 5/4 SYP (heavy) that was 48"
long (much longer torque arm than the OP will have on kitchen
cabinets) that a 40-poind puppy liked to climb over (OP should shoot
anyone who hangs from his kitchen cabinet doors). And my customer and
wife was more interested in having it NOW than in my having a fun
woodworking project. So I built it with doubled #20 biscuits, and it
has held up just fine.

I'd challenge anyone to break a cabinet door built with biscuits,
while it is hanging on hinges. Unless you use a really heavy piano
hinge with long screws, my money is on the hinges giving out first.

RayV brings up an interesting article, though. Worth checking out for
additional info.

P.S. This weekend, I will chop the mortises for the M&T panel doors
for a cabinet I'm building. But it is more a neander thing than a
sense that I really NEED to.
--
Alex -- Replace "nospam" with "mail" to reply by email. Checked infrequently.

I think the problem lies in the structural nature of the biscuits. The
fiber structure seems to have been purposely crushed as part of the
manufacturing process and they are very porous so to be able to absorb
the glue and expand. Their shape also minimizes their strength with the
full width only at the center and minimal width even just 1/2" away
from the center.

Now a true spline or floating tenon on the other hand is as good as or
better than classic M&T

alexy wrote:
"RayV" wrote:


Andrew Barss wrote:
TimR wrote:
: I am thinking of making my own kitchen flat panel doors...and refacing the
: cases. I have a good biscuit joiner and would like input on whether the
: biscuit techniques is strong enough for kitchen cabinet doors...or should I
: go with the traditional mortise and tenon assembly ?


I wouldn't hesitate to use biscuits. They're plenty strong
enough for this application.


-- Andy Barss

Latest issue of Wood magazine rates biscuits as _barely_ stronger than
butt joints in all directions. Dowels were second in strength to M&T.

http://store.woodstore.net/november173.html

That's surprising. In fact, I don't believe it. I guess I will have to
buy the mag to read about their testing. VERY hard for me to believe
that the long-grain to long-grain gluing, even over the small area of
a biscuit, is not a big improvement over end-grain to long-grain
gluing of a plain butt joint. Maybe the problem is my impression of
the weakness of end-grain gluing. I've always accepted that as an
article of faith, but never tested it.
--
Alex -- Replace "nospam" with "mail" to reply by email. Checked infrequently.

alexy wrote:


That's surprising. In fact, I don't believe it. I guess I will have to
buy the mag to read about their testing.

I guess you will! G

They went to an actual materials testing lab and used widely accepted,
calibrated test equipment.

The article is quite well written, and the testing methods make sense.

RayV wrote:

: Andrew Barss wrote:

: Latest issue of Wood magazine rates biscuits as _barely_ stronger than
: butt joints in all directions. Dowels were second in strength to M&T.

: http://store.woodstore.net/november173.html

Interesting. There have been two previous studies (first one
in FWW, second maybe also there) which showed M&T at the top, with
biscuits very closely behind. Dowels, if I recall, were nowhere near as strong.


-- Andy Barss

Just goes to show, you shouldn't believe everything you read.

"RayV" wrote in message
ups.com...

Latest issue of Wood magazine rates biscuits as _barely_ stronger than
butt joints in all directions. Dowels were second in strength to M&T.

http://store.woodstore.net/november173.html

TimR wrote:
I am thinking of making my own kitchen flat panel doors...and refacing the
cases. I have a good biscuit joiner and would like input on whether the
biscuit techniques is strong enough for kitchen cabinet doors...or should I
go with the traditional mortise and tenon assembly ?

Also..anyone know of a good site for detailed instructions/examples of a
good quality kitchen door assembly ?

Thanks, Tim

If you have a router table, I'd seriously suggest buying a door rail
and style set.. It's maybe around $60-80 (haven't bought in a long
time). Since you are doing a whole kitchen, it will save you tons and
tons of time. Mortise and tenon is ok for just doing a couple doors,
but a whole kitchen? That would take forever. In addition, they will
look better, since they cut a decorative edge on the inside of the
door. (IMO, of course).

In 10 years of the door banging shut the M&T will outperform the
biscuits IMNSHO
alexy wrote:
Andrew Barss wrote:

TimR wrote:
: I am thinking of making my own kitchen flat panel doors...and refacing the
: cases. I have a good biscuit joiner and would like input on whether the
: biscuit techniques is strong enough for kitchen cabinet doors...or should I
: go with the traditional mortise and tenon assembly ?


I wouldn't hesitate to use biscuits. They're plenty strong
enough for this application.


I agree. Although my personal bias is in line with Swingman's, I think
you have the right practical answer.

Data point: I built a "doggie gate" from 5/4 SYP (heavy) that was 48"
long (much longer torque arm than the OP will have on kitchen
cabinets) that a 40-poind puppy liked to climb over (OP should shoot
anyone who hangs from his kitchen cabinet doors). And my customer and
wife was more interested in having it NOW than in my having a fun
woodworking project. So I built it with doubled #20 biscuits, and it
has held up just fine.

I'd challenge anyone to break a cabinet door built with biscuits,
while it is hanging on hinges. Unless you use a really heavy piano
hinge with long screws, my money is on the hinges giving out first.

RayV brings up an interesting article, though. Worth checking out for
additional info.

P.S. This weekend, I will chop the mortises for the M&T panel doors
for a cabinet I'm building. But it is more a neander thing than a
sense that I really NEED to.
--
Alex -- Replace "nospam" with "mail" to reply by email. Checked infrequently.

I'd love to hear your critique of the testing methodology that Wood used.

todd

"CW" wrote in message
hlink.net...
Just goes to show, you shouldn't believe everything you read.

"RayV" wrote in message
ups.com...

Latest issue of Wood magazine rates biscuits as _barely_ stronger than
butt joints in all directions. Dowels were second in strength to M&T.

http://store.woodstore.net/november173.html

Here it is: They're full of ****.
Satisfied?

"todd" wrote in message
...
I'd love to hear your critique of the testing methodology that Wood used.

todd

"CW" wrote in message
hlink.net...
Just goes to show, you shouldn't believe everything you read.

"RayV" wrote in message
ups.com...

Latest issue of Wood magazine rates biscuits as _barely_ stronger than
butt joints in all directions. Dowels were second in strength to M&T.

http://store.woodstore.net/november173.html

No. I get the impression that you haven't read the article. Speaking as
someone with the educational and practical experience to be able to evaluate
their testing, I'll have to read the article before making such a
determination.

todd

"CW" wrote in message
hlink.net...
Here it is: They're full of ****.
Satisfied?

"todd" wrote in message
...
I'd love to hear your critique of the testing methodology that Wood used.

todd

"CW" wrote in message
hlink.net...
Just goes to show, you shouldn't believe everything you read.

"RayV" wrote in message
ups.com...

Latest issue of Wood magazine rates biscuits as _barely_ stronger than
butt joints in all directions. Dowels were second in strength to M&T.

http://store.woodstore.net/november173.html

In article Wg7_g.33437$tO5.29953@fed1read10, TimR wrote:
I am thinking of making my own kitchen flat panel doors...and refacing the
cases. I have a good biscuit joiner and would like input on whether the
biscuit techniques is strong enough for kitchen cabinet doors...or should I
go with the traditional mortise and tenon assembly ?

Also..anyone know of a good site for detailed instructions/examples of a
good quality kitchen door assembly ?

Thanks, Tim



Are your rails going to be wide enough for a biscuit? If so, IMHO it
will be OK. You said "flat panel" if you use plywood you can glue them
in to the frames & they will be plenty strong.


--
No dumb questions, just dumb answers.

Larry Wasserman - Baltimore, Maryland -

in 1322212 20061020 210007 "bf" wrote:
TimR wrote:
I am thinking of making my own kitchen flat panel doors...and refacing the
cases. I have a good biscuit joiner and would like input on whether the
biscuit techniques is strong enough for kitchen cabinet doors...or should I
go with the traditional mortise and tenon assembly ?

Also..anyone know of a good site for detailed instructions/examples of a
good quality kitchen door assembly ?

Thanks, Tim

If you have a router table, I'd seriously suggest buying a door rail
and style set.. It's maybe around $60-80 (haven't bought in a long
time). Since you are doing a whole kitchen, it will save you tons and
tons of time. Mortise and tenon is ok for just doing a couple doors,
but a whole kitchen? That would take forever. In addition, they will
look better, since they cut a decorative edge on the inside of the
door. (IMO, of course).

Seconded. I bought the Freud set at 100 GBP and have done dozens of doors
quite painlessly. Router table is home made (requirements are minimal)
and router is a big (2200W) cheap (60 GBP) job.

On Fri, 20 Oct 2006 10:01:17 -0700, "TimR" wrote:

I am thinking of making my own kitchen flat panel doors...and refacing the
cases. I have a good biscuit joiner and would like input on whether the
biscuit techniques is strong enough for kitchen cabinet doors...or should I
go with the traditional mortise and tenon assembly ?

Also..anyone know of a good site for detailed instructions/examples of a
good quality kitchen door assembly ?

Thanks, Tim



M&T will outlast biscuits. Kitchen cabinet doors get a lot of use
(and sometimes abuse). There are thousands of books on making
doors--take a look at Taunton Press books. Here, you'll be far ahead
with a good set of Bessy K-body clamps and corner blocks.

"SonomaProducts.com" wrote:


Their shape also minimizes their strength with the
full width only at the center and minimal width even just 1/2" away
from the center.

good point. And thinking this way, two dowels relatively near the
outside of the joint would do a much better job of resisting typical
non-linear (e.g. twisting or racking) forces.
--
Alex -- Replace "nospam" with "mail" to reply by email. Checked infrequently.

B A R R Y wrote:

On Fri, 20 Oct 2006 19:41:45 +0000 (UTC), Andrew Barss
wrote:

RayV wrote:

: Andrew Barss wrote:

: Latest issue of Wood magazine rates biscuits as _barely_ stronger than
: butt joints in all directions. Dowels were second in strength to M&T.

: http://store.woodstore.net/november173.html

Interesting. There have been two previous studies (first one
in FWW, second maybe also there) which showed M&T at the top, with
biscuits very closely behind. Dowels, if I recall, were nowhere near as strong.

"Wood" tested the joints two ways, shear strength and pullout
resistance. As I remember, biscuits did OK in pullout resistance, the
comparison to butt joints was in the shear test portion.

M&T came out on top in both.

"Wood" also included pocket screws in the tests.

Question on this: Other than seat rails, bed rails, and maybe table
rails, how important is shear strength? It seems that for many of our
joints, including the cabinet door frame, the forces acting on the
joint are angular. And what is important to the joint integrity is
that the joint not pull apart at the side of the joint under tension.

As another poster pointed out, the strength added by a biscuit is
concentrated on the center, so only has 1/2 the "arm" of an attachment
at the end of the joint.

Thinking this way also points out one reason that M&T is so much
stronger in actual use--the M&T provides no only additional resistance
to pulling out of the side of the joint under tension, but additional
mechanical w00d-to-wood contact from the shoulders of the joint.
e.g., even a relatively loose unglued M&T provides massively more
resistance to a joint opening out at an angel than does a biscuit.
--
Alex -- Replace "nospam" with "mail" to reply by email. Checked infrequently.

"SonomaProducts.com" wrote:

In 10 years of the door banging shut the M&T will outperform the
biscuits IMNSHO

Well, there is no question in my mind that it is stronger; just
whether the difference is relevant.
--
Alex -- Replace "nospam" with "mail" to reply by email. Checked infrequently.

B A R R Y wrote:

On 20 Oct 2006 14:23:17 -0700, "SonomaProducts.com"
wrote:

I'd challenge anyone to break a cabinet door built with biscuits,
while it is hanging on hinges. Unless you use a really heavy piano
hinge with long screws, my money is on the hinges giving out first.


This brings up an interesting point.

You are looking at it from the point of view where one (or maybe
several) blow(s) will destroy the door. From that point of view, I
agree with you.

However... G

I've seen lots of cabinet doors fail slowly, as years of slamming
shut, spills on lower cabinets, etc... takes a toll on the glue. The
only joints I've ever had come apart were biscuited.

Interesting. Sounds almost like "fatiguing" the joint with lots of
little stresses that have a cumulative effect. I don't have the
engineering knowledge to agree or disagree, but that sounds
plausible..
--
Alex -- Replace "nospam" with "mail" to reply by email. Checked infrequently.

alexy wrote:

B A R R Y wrote:

On Fri, 20 Oct 2006 19:41:45 +0000 (UTC), Andrew Barss
wrote:

RayV wrote:

: Andrew Barss wrote:

: Latest issue of Wood magazine rates biscuits as _barely_ stronger than
: butt joints in all directions. Dowels were second in strength to M&T.

: http://store.woodstore.net/november173.html

Interesting. There have been two previous studies (first one
in FWW, second maybe also there) which showed M&T at the top, with
biscuits very closely behind. Dowels, if I recall, were nowhere near as strong.

"Wood" tested the joints two ways, shear strength and pullout
resistance. As I remember, biscuits did OK in pullout resistance, the
comparison to butt joints was in the shear test portion.

M&T came out on top in both.

"Wood" also included pocket screws in the tests.

Question on this: Other than seat rails, bed rails, and maybe table
rails, how important is shear strength? It seems that for many of our
joints, including the cabinet door frame, the forces acting on the
joint are angular. And what is important to the joint integrity is
that the joint not pull apart at the side of the joint under tension.

As another poster pointed out, the strength added by a biscuit is
concentrated on the center, so only has 1/2 the "arm" of an attachment
at the end of the joint.

Thinking this way also points out one reason that M&T is so much
stronger in actual use--the M&T provides no only additional resistance
to pulling out of the side of the joint under tension, but additional
mechanical w00d-to-wood contact from the shoulders of the joint.
^^^^
e.g., even a relatively loose unglued M&T provides massively more
resistance to a joint opening out at an angel than does a biscuit.
^^^^^

Good grief! I think it's time for another cup of coffee!
--
Alex -- Replace "nospam" with "mail" to reply by email. Checked infrequently.

On Fri, 20 Oct 2006 21:45:49 GMT, B A R R Y wrote:
On 20 Oct 2006 14:23:17 -0700, "SonomaProducts.com"
wrote:

I'd challenge anyone to break a cabinet door built with biscuits,
while it is hanging on hinges. Unless you use a really heavy piano
hinge with long screws, my money is on the hinges giving out first.


This brings up an interesting point.

You are looking at it from the point of view where one (or maybe
several) blow(s) will destroy the door. From that point of view, I
agree with you.

However... G

I've seen lots of cabinet doors fail slowly, as years of slamming
shut, spills on lower cabinets, etc... takes a toll on the glue. The
only joints I've ever had come apart were biscuited.

From reading this thread, it seems like most people are saying that
it's the _glue_ around the biscuit that fails - not the biscuit
itself. Which makes me wonder what adhesive the article used (I
haven't seen that particular mag. sold in this country).

Can't you just use a stronger adhesive?

Pete

--
.................................................. .........................
.. never trust a man who, when left alone ...... Pete Lynch .
.. in a room with a tea cosy ...... Marlow, England .
.. doesn't try it on (Billy Connolly) .....................................

B A R R Y wrote:
On Sun, 22 Oct 2006 09:35:07 GMT, Peter Lynch
wrote:


From reading this thread, it seems like most people are saying that
it's the _glue_ around the biscuit that fails - not the biscuit
itself.

I agree. Yellow woodworking glues are weak when filling gaps. A
properly fitted joint features smooth surface mating to smooth
surface.

The biscuit failures I've had all involved the biscuit sliding out of
the slot.

Which makes me wonder what adhesive the article used (I
haven't seen that particular mag. sold in this country).

Standard woodworking glue, just like most woodworkers.

Can't you just use a stronger adhesive?

Epoxy would probably work well, but it adds other complexities.

Use urethane glue. Holds like crazy.

---
************************************************** ****************
* KSI@home KOI8 Net The impossible we do immediately. *
* Las Vegas NV, USA Miracles require 24-hour notice. *
************************************************** ****************

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Standard wood glue is stronger than the wood. If the biscuit is sliding out
of the slot, it wasn't glued right.

"Sergey Kubushin" wrote in message
.. .
B A R R Y wrote:
On Sun, 22 Oct 2006 09:35:07 GMT, Peter Lynch
wrote:


From reading this thread, it seems like most people are saying that
it's the _glue_ around the biscuit that fails - not the biscuit
itself.

I agree. Yellow woodworking glues are weak when filling gaps. A
properly fitted joint features smooth surface mating to smooth
surface.

The biscuit failures I've had all involved the biscuit sliding out of
the slot.

Which makes me wonder what adhesive the article used (I
haven't seen that particular mag. sold in this country).

Standard woodworking glue, just like most woodworkers.

Can't you just use a stronger adhesive?

Epoxy would probably work well, but it adds other complexities.

Use urethane glue. Holds like crazy.

---
************************************************** ****************
* KSI@home KOI8 Net The impossible we do immediately. *
* Las Vegas NV, USA Miracles require 24-hour notice. *
************************************************** ****************

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

"Sergey Kubushin" wrote in message
.. .
B A R R Y wrote:
On Sun, 22 Oct 2006 09:35:07 GMT, Peter Lynch
wrote:


From reading this thread, it seems like most people are saying that
it's the _glue_ around the biscuit that fails - not the biscuit
itself.

I agree. Yellow woodworking glues are weak when filling gaps. A
properly fitted joint features smooth surface mating to smooth
surface.

The biscuit failures I've had all involved the biscuit sliding out of
the slot.

Which makes me wonder what adhesive the article used (I
haven't seen that particular mag. sold in this country).

Standard woodworking glue, just like most woodworkers.

Can't you just use a stronger adhesive?

Epoxy would probably work well, but it adds other complexities.

Use urethane glue. Holds like crazy.

Biscuits are supposed to absorb moisture from the glue and expand. Epoxy
and polyurethane don't provide moisture.

---
************************************************** ****************
* KSI@home KOI8 Net The impossible we do immediately. *
* Las Vegas NV, USA Miracles require 24-hour notice. *
************************************************** ****************

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com