"Upscale" wrote in message
...
"Chris Friesen" wrote in message

I saw the sawstop demoed at the local woodworking expo. Some wiseguy in
the audience suggested that the exibitor use his finger. He refused but
said that the inventor does indeed demo it with his finger.

Well, if I was the inventor, I'd be willing to do the real finger test for
the purposes of marketing the Sawstop. I wouldn't have the courage to move
my finger into the blade fast enough to be capable of taking it off, but
I'd
be willing do it slowly with the possibility of nicking the finger. Hell,
I
don't think I've ever built anything without coming away with a nick
somewhere or a splinter or stubbing a body part or something like that.



You're scary!

--

-Mike-

"Robin Lee" wrote in message

We will take (or have taken ) delivery of our first Sawstop saw.... we
will
eventually (as soon as we can get 'em) replace every table/cabinet saw we
have.... something like 13-15 saws...

If I might ask Robin, what purpose would that number of saws serve for Lee
Valley Tools? I can envision a tablesaw or two for testing purposes and
maybe for research purposes when making new products. But, without my
thumbing through your catalogue, I don't remember seeing too many wooden or
plastic products constructed by LV where a tablesaw might be required.

"Mike Marlow" wrote in message
don't think I've ever built anything without coming away with a nick
somewhere or a splinter or stubbing a body part or something like that.

You're scary!

Think so? Maybe you're just lucky or extra careful or maybe I'm unlucky and
careless. I've always considered a small amount of pain as just part of the
process. Be it a splinter or sore muscles from hand sanding something or
getting a blister on my hand from twisting a screwdriver or whatever. I'd
guess it also depends on what kind of woodworking one is doing too. Of the
woodworking I do, cabinet making using a veneered plywood is my favourite
and that automatically means a few splinters somewhere in the process.

"Todd the wood junkie" wrote in message
oups.com...

There is a very big difference between a demonstration where you have a
scripted and controlled environment, and rigorous, scientific testing
where you explore every possible condition of using the product. I'll
bet that the inventor does the demo exactly the same way every time.
I'd like to see if he would be willing to try the demo differently each
time that simulates all the possible and varied ways people would use
the sawstop. There are different styles, body types, skin types, etc..
How does a pacemaker affect the product? What about if you are
standing in a puddle of water or grease? I'm not an electrical
engineer, but I understand that a product that is claiming to do what
this does better be completely tested.


Yes, there is a difference between a canned demo and an exhaustive
evaluation, but go look at what the claims are by the manufacturer. Read
the FAQ - it clearly states conditions which can overwhelm the capabilities
of the device and result in serious injury. It does not claim to address
every possible condition. It attempts to deliver incremental gain.

This whole thing was beaten up badly a few months ago in threads on this
group. There was a big division between advocates and those with
philosophical problems with the whole thing. Most of the issues really came
down to a lot of us not caring for the heavy handed approach the patent
holders took, in attempt to legislate the use of their product on all saws.
There really was not a lot of objection to the concept of the device in
principle.

As far as standing in a puddle of water, or grease or anything else - those
don't change the electrical capacitance of the human body, which is the
electrical principle that the device works under.

Remember - the product does not suggest it can completely eliminate
injuries. It attempts to address a common form of injury, and bring a
measure of lessened risk. It clearly states that it can be overwhelmed by
certain conditions.

The most annoying aspect of the discussions that took place here in the past
were the arguments that went off on all sorts of assumptions and false
pretenses, and wandered away from the expressed intent of the device.

Whether it's worth the price is up to the individual - for what it's worth,
in my opinion, it's not worth what they get for it, all things considered.
It is a worthwhile effort to examine and to question manufacturer's claims,
but when doing so it's also worthwhile to take a look at what their claims
are, and what they are publishing before throwing the questions on the
floor.

--

-Mike-

"Upscale" wrote in message
.. .
"Mike Marlow" wrote in message
don't think I've ever built anything without coming away with a nick
somewhere or a splinter or stubbing a body part or something like
that.

You're scary!

Think so? Maybe you're just lucky or extra careful or maybe I'm unlucky
and
careless. I've always considered a small amount of pain as just part of
the
process. Be it a splinter or sore muscles from hand sanding something or
getting a blister on my hand from twisting a screwdriver or whatever. I'd
guess it also depends on what kind of woodworking one is doing too. Of the
woodworking I do, cabinet making using a veneered plywood is my favourite
and that automatically means a few splinters somewhere in the process.



I was banking on the fact that I've established myself *not* to be one of
the safety nazi's and was trying to throw a little light hearted jab your
way. I have to admit - I was also thinking more of a little nicked finger
here, a little nicked finger there more than I was thinking about a
splinter...

--

-Mike-

Great to hear.. The saw stops just paid for all the eaten blades and
trouble to get some filters for one problematic operator!

In my home State of Washington, the Labor and Industries costs of an
accident are marked up 35% from what all the costs are, then added to
the experience pool of the employeer. If they are lucky the don't go
into the next tier, but generally they do after an accident requiring
micro-surgeries.

Washington collects EVERY PENNY from you +, their L&I makes money in
this State.

On 20 Dec 2005 12:30:37 GMT, Bruce Barnett wrote:
"Upscale" writes:

Well, if I was the inventor, I'd be willing to do the real finger test for
the purposes of marketing the Sawstop.


Didn't the inventor of the GFI also put "life and limb" on the line in
his marketing? Or rather - put his son at risk?
I tried a google search, and didn't find anything.
Perhaps I just heard a urban legend.

Dunno, but the guy who invented the "Second Chance" ballistic vest
tested it on himself, on tape. Dramatic footage.

"Upscale" wrote in message
news
"Robin Lee" wrote in message

We will take (or have taken ) delivery of our first Sawstop saw.... we
will
eventually (as soon as we can get 'em) replace every table/cabinet saw
we
have.... something like 13-15 saws...

If I might ask Robin, what purpose would that number of saws serve for Lee
Valley Tools? I can envision a tablesaw or two for testing purposes and
maybe for research purposes when making new products. But, without my
thumbing through your catalogue, I don't remember seeing too many wooden
or
plastic products constructed by LV where a tablesaw might be required.



Hi -

Every store has a full woodshop....we make all of our own displays, and
prepare course material etc. ...

Then we have woodshops for the R&D guys, and for general corporate use....

Cheers -

Rob

On Mon, 19 Dec 2005 14:22:09 -0600, with neither quill nor qualm,
Chris Friesen quickly quoth:

Todd the wood junkie wrote:
I
don't think it has been tested on live fingers, in every possible
working condition (only on chickens and hotdogs).

I saw it demoed with a frozen hotdog. The demonstrator said that the
inventor demos it at woodworking shows using his fingers.

He does, does he? (Get ready, Darwin.)


--
Action is eloquence. --William Shakespeare (1564-1616)

On Tue, 20 Dec 2005 09:18:26 -0800, "Joe" wrote:


"Joe" wrote in message
...
Any one have problems with the cartridge firing off when it not supposed
to?
I have had three cartridge go off with no contact with the blade, Saw Stop
replaced the first two, have not called them about this one yet this is in
a
two week period
Joe


IT WORKS!
Well received the filters from saw stop and Rick can now use the saw with no
problems, but Mark proved that the filters don't interferer with the
operation of the machine by using his thumb! Seriously we just avoided a
serious accident Mark has a bandage on this thumb and is back working (a
little shaken) instead of being at the hospital
Joe (OP)


Would be interested in hearing details regarding that potential injury.
i.e, how serious was the "nick" that a bandage was required? What were the
circumstances? etc. It sounds like the saw may have just paid for
itself.


+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

If you're gonna be dumb, you better be tough

+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

On Tue, 20 Dec 2005 08:42:41 -0800, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Mon, 19 Dec 2005 14:22:09 -0600, with neither quill nor qualm,
Chris Friesen quickly quoth:

I saw it demoed with a frozen hotdog. The demonstrator said that the
inventor demos it at woodworking shows using his fingers.

He does, does he? (Get ready, Darwin.)

Unless he's reproducing in an unexpected way, the loss of fingers isn't
a Darwinistic event.

"Joe" wrote in message
...
Any one have problems with the cartridge firing off when it not supposed
to?
I have had three cartridge go off with no contact with the blade, Saw Stop
replaced the first two, have not called them about this one yet this is in
a
two week period
Joe


IT WORKS!
Well received the filters from saw stop and Rick can now use the saw with no
problems, but Mark proved that the filters don't interferer with the
operation of the machine by using his thumb! Seriously we just avoided a
serious accident Mark has a bandage on this thumb and is back working (a
little shaken) instead of being at the hospital
Joe (OP)

"Robin Lee" wrote in message

Every store has a full woodshop....we make all of our own displays, and
prepare course material etc. ...

Yes, my apologies, I completely forgot about the courses that each store
runs. It would be interesting once you get the Sawstops in for some of your
woodworkers to write and post their opinion of the machine.

"arw01" wrote in message
oups.com...
What is the latest from joe, his followup is missing here..

Unless there is some more information could this be a troll?

I posted to my original post a few minutes ago, I don't get to post very
much I like to read them. Unless I have something worth adding and this
morring I did we got a live demo thanks to Mark and his thumb.
Joe

--What are these "filters" you're referring to? I've yet to have a
cartridge activate so maybe I've got a newer iteration?

--
"Steamboat Ed" Haas : Nihil curo de ista tua
Hacking the Trailing Edge! : stulta superstitione...
http://www.nmpproducts.com/intro.htm
---Decks a-wash in a sea of words---

Hi,
Mark was ripping a stair tread to 9-1/2" (we have treads in 9" and 10")
there was a strip of wood less than 1/2" as a drop, for what ever reason he
went to push the drop piece out of the way with his left thumb, he pushed
the blade instead. His thumb much like the hotdog had a nick the width of
the blade but not deep at all. Gave him a good scare and I am sure his thumb
will throb a little tonight but he is fine. It's amazing how little impact
there is on the saw when this happens, it a very well built machine we have
a Powermatic 66 and a Delta unisaw here also and the are not in the same
class as this saw, I even am reusing one of the blades that was imbedded
into a cartridge.
Joe
"Mark & Juanita" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 20 Dec 2005 09:18:26 -0800, "Joe" wrote:


"Joe" wrote in message
...
Any one have problems with the cartridge firing off when it not
supposed
to?
I have had three cartridge go off with no contact with the blade, Saw
Stop
replaced the first two, have not called them about this one yet this is
in
a
two week period
Joe


IT WORKS!
Well received the filters from saw stop and Rick can now use the saw with
no
problems, but Mark proved that the filters don't interferer with the
operation of the machine by using his thumb! Seriously we just avoided a
serious accident Mark has a bandage on this thumb and is back working (a
little shaken) instead of being at the hospital
Joe (OP)


Would be interested in hearing details regarding that potential injury.
i.e, how serious was the "nick" that a bandage was required? What were
the
circumstances? etc. It sounds like the saw may have just paid for
itself.



+---------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----+

If you're gonna be dumb, you better be tough


+---------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----+

On Tue, 20 Dec 2005 11:05:14 -0500, "Robin Lee" wrote:

.... snip
Every store has a full woodshop....we make all of our own displays, and
prepare course material etc. ...

Then we have woodshops for the R&D guys, and for general corporate use....


Is that last one there a thinly veiled "Robin's workshop" with lot's of
cool tools? :-)

Cheers -

Rob



+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

If you're gonna be dumb, you better be tough

+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

On Tue, 20 Dec 2005 12:48:18 -0800, "Joe" wrote:


"Mark & Juanita" wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 20 Dec 2005 09:18:26 -0800, "Joe" wrote:


"Joe" wrote in message
...
.... snip

IT WORKS!
Well received the filters from saw stop and Rick can now use the saw with
no
problems, but Mark proved that the filters don't interferer with the
operation of the machine by using his thumb! Seriously we just avoided a
serious accident Mark has a bandage on this thumb and is back working (a
little shaken) instead of being at the hospital
Joe (OP)


Would be interested in hearing details regarding that potential injury.
i.e, how serious was the "nick" that a bandage was required? What were
the
circumstances? etc. It sounds like the saw may have just paid for
itself.


Hi,
Mark was ripping a stair tread to 9-1/2" (we have treads in 9" and 10")
there was a strip of wood less than 1/2" as a drop, for what ever reason he
went to push the drop piece out of the way with his left thumb, he pushed
the blade instead. His thumb much like the hotdog had a nick the width of
the blade but not deep at all. Gave him a good scare and I am sure his thumb
will throb a little tonight but he is fine. It's amazing how little impact
there is on the saw when this happens, it a very well built machine we have
a Powermatic 66 and a Delta unisaw here also and the are not in the same
class as this saw, I even am reusing one of the blades that was imbedded
into a cartridge.
Joe

Wow, sounds like the saw really did save a thumb and some very serious
injury.






+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

If you're gonna be dumb, you better be tough

+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

We have one guy at work who has more of a static charge than every one else
(I guess?) if it was not for Rick we would not need the filters. What they
are is a little black cylinder, if you open the door on the left side of the
machine (opposite the motor) you can see two wires the thinner of the two
has one filter on it now (the wire loops around it) I now have two more. I
could not loop the wire so my guess is the two filters they sent act like
one additional static filter
Joe
"steamer" wrote in message
...
--What are these "filters" you're referring to? I've yet to have a
cartridge activate so maybe I've got a newer iteration?

--
"Steamboat Ed" Haas : Nihil curo de ista tua
Hacking the Trailing Edge! : stulta superstitione...
http://www.nmpproducts.com/intro.htm
---Decks a-wash in a sea of words---

On Tue, 20 Dec 2005 07:56:28 -0500, "Robin Lee"
wrote:

From an employer's perspective - there's virtually no choice but to adopt
the most stringent safety standards as soon as practical. With an
organisation our size.... the incidence of certain types of injuries
approaches a certainty.... what's 1 in 2000 odds for the average joe is 1 in
2 odds for us....or better!

If it prevents 1 injury, it'll be worth it. We've had 1 injury already....
and it was a guy with decades of experience. It just takes a second....

Plus, I imagine that your insurers who write your policies are going
to be thrilled as well

Matt

The Robin Lee entity posted thusly:

I can't put my finger on it... but I'm pretty sure there's been a contact
"incident" in the installed base of saws already....and it functioned
properly.

Aside from "joe", who just posted about a contact incident, yes, there
have been a few. I just recently started reading the Wreck, and as
soon as I spotted the SawStop threads, checked out their web site.
There are a few testimonials and reports of contact incidents, all
successful.

Love your store, BTW.

Larry
---
There are 10 kinds of people --
those who understand binary, and those who don't.
-- Uncle Phil

Joe said:

We have one guy at work who has more of a static charge than every one else
(I guess?) if it was not for Rick we would not need the filters. snip

I have friend like that - He worked in a computer shop where they
called him Mr. Lightning. Wouldn't let him near any electronic
equipment without discharging him first.

It was the combination of synthetic threads in his socks and his shoes
rubbing against one another. Now he only blows things up from
incompetence. :-\


Greg G.

Greg G. wrote:
Joe said:


We have one guy at work who has more of a static charge than every one else
(I guess?) if it was not for Rick we would not need the filters. snip


I have friend like that - He worked in a computer shop where they
called him Mr. Lightning. Wouldn't let him near any electronic
equipment without discharging him first.

It was the combination of synthetic threads in his socks and his shoes
rubbing against one another. Now he only blows things up from
incompetence. :-\


Greg G.


Restrict him to cotton and sack cloth -- then he can do penance
simultaneously with his misdeeds.


--
Will R.
Jewel Boxes and Wood Art
http://woodwork.pmccl.com
The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those
who have not got it.” George Bernard Shaw

"Robin Lee" wrote in message
.. .



If it prevents 1 injury, it'll be worth it. We've had 1 injury already....
and it was a guy with decades of experience. It just takes a second....


Oh, so you and your crew are not immortal or incapable or making a mistake
either. There are some people that think that they are. LOL

"Joe" wrote in message
...

"arw01" wrote in message
oups.com...
What is the latest from joe, his followup is missing here..

Unless there is some more information could this be a troll?

I posted to my original post a few minutes ago, I don't get to post very
much I like to read them. Unless I have something worth adding and this
morring I did we got a live demo thanks to Mark and his thumb.
Joe


So I strongly suspect that although you are having a problem with misfires,
Joe is happy that he was using a SawStop Saw. Huh?

"Todd the wood junkie" wrote in message
oups.com...
There is a very big difference between a demonstration where you have a
scripted and controlled environment, and rigorous, scientific testing
where you explore every possible condition of using the product. I'll
bet that the inventor does the demo exactly the same way every time.
I'd like to see if he would be willing to try the demo differently each
time that simulates all the possible and varied ways people would use
the sawstop. There are different styles, body types, skin types, etc..
How does a pacemaker affect the product? What about if you are
standing in a puddle of water or grease? I'm not an electrical
engineer, but I understand that a product that is claiming to do what
this does better be completely tested.

With all this to consider, how well do you think you would fare with all of
the above circumstances and a regular saw?

"Joe" wrote in message
...

IT WORKS!
Well received the filters from saw stop and Rick can now use the saw with
no
problems, but Mark proved that the filters don't interferer with the
operation of the machine by using his thumb! Seriously we just avoided a
serious accident Mark has a bandage on this thumb and is back working (a
little shaken) instead of being at the hospital
Joe (OP)


Now aren't you and Mark just thrilled that you purchased that saw. The
misfires were certainly an inconvenience but in the end the product just
paid for it self.

On Wed, 21 Dec 2005 08:31:58 -0500, WillR wrote:
Greg G. wrote:

It was the combination of synthetic threads in his socks and his shoes
rubbing against one another. Now he only blows things up from
incompetence. :-\

Restrict him to cotton and sack cloth -- then he can do penance
simultaneously with his misdeeds.

Iron Age and some other safetey shoe makers make work shoes with
conductive soles. You can use a special wax on the floors, and he'll be
grounded effectively that way.

Let's not kid ourselves for one second. The underlying perception of
the sawstop is to prevent accidental injury when flesh contacts the
blade. SUPER IDEA in every sincerity. If I were to create a business
plan on an idea like this, it would be to open a table saw to several
new markets of users:

1. Those who use tablesaws regularly and want that extra insurance in
case of a mistep.
2. Those who would never have purchased a cabinet saw, but would now
feel protected and safe from harm (until they realize a saw stop can
still throw wood back at them).
3. Those who want something different than anyone else (short term)

Right now, I think #3 above is the prevailing market. If you are
implying that a regular saw isn't as safe, then you have missed my
point. What I am saying is that if this new technology is to be
effective, it must be invisible to any user until needed. When needed
it MUST work right as intended every time, and forget about legal usage
disclaimers. To put any kind of usage disclaimers goes against a large
portion of what I would consider the long term target market.

Until it delivers perfectly against the perceived image, it is purely a
novelty.

"Todd the wood junkie" wrote:

Let's not kid ourselves for one second. The underlying perception of
the sawstop is to prevent accidental injury when flesh contacts the
blade. SUPER IDEA in every sincerity. If I were to create a business
plan on an idea like this, it would be to open a table saw to several
new markets of users:

1. Those who use tablesaws regularly and want that extra insurance in
case of a mistep.
2. Those who would never have purchased a cabinet saw, but would now
feel protected and safe from harm (until they realize a saw stop can
still throw wood back at them).
3. Those who want something different than anyone else (short term)

Right now, I think #3 above is the prevailing market. If you are
implying that a regular saw isn't as safe, then you have missed my
point. What I am saying is that if this new technology is to be
effective, it must be invisible to any user until needed. When needed
it MUST work right as intended every time, and forget about legal usage
disclaimers. To put any kind of usage disclaimers goes against a large
portion of what I would consider the long term target market.

Until it delivers perfectly against the perceived image, it is purely a
novelty.

Do you also avoid wearing seat belts, since they do not prevent death
or serious injury in every accident? How about airbags, which have
been known to CAUSE injuries. No, I don't think that perfection is the
right standard for removing from the novelty category.

Now whether it is sufficiently effective, I don't know; I'm just
quibbling with the idea that perfection should be the standard.
--
Alex -- Replace "nospam" with "mail" to reply by email. Checked infrequently.

Todd the wood junkie wrote:
Let's not kid ourselves for one second. The underlying perception of
the sawstop is to prevent accidental injury when flesh contacts the
blade.

I think it is unrealistic to expect any safety device to *prevent*
accidents. Airbags, brakes, fire extinguishers--they all fail or go off
prematurely under certain conditions.

A more realistic view is that the purpose of the sawstop is to reduce
the likelihood/severity of accidental injury when flesh contacts the blade.

Viewed in this light, I think it's a great idea.

That said, I don't think it should be mandatory, and I don't think it's
worth the current premium for myself as a hobbyist.

Chris

Joe wrote:
"Robatoy" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Joe" wrote:

Any one have problems with the cartridge firing off when it not supposed
to?
I have had three cartridge go off with no contact with the blade, Saw
Stop
replaced the first two, have not called them about this one yet this is
in a
two week period
Joe

Are you in the process of making a cut when this happens?

Yes, only when cutting small parts like stair returns which we use a push
block to cut. But I have now learned that out of the ten people or so that
use this saw during the day it has always misfired on the same person, so it
sounds like the digital watch problem. I will be calling Saw Stop as soon as
the wake up this morning (west coast)

Maybe the bloat is drooling all over your equipment!

On Wed, 21 Dec 2005 11:44:24 -0500, alexy wrote:

Do you also avoid wearing seat belts, since they do not prevent death
or serious injury in every accident? How about airbags, which have
been known to CAUSE injuries. No, I don't think that perfection is the
right standard for removing from the novelty category.

If the sawstop people had just marketed their product as a safety
device, I might have agreed that this is a good analogy. After all, any
automaker can add a seat belt to their cars. However, their tactic was
to try to get the government to _force_ saws to be sold with their
exclusively patented device.

Contrast this to the mentality of automakers like Mercedes and Saab -
Mercedes invented "crumple zones". It's a great safety improvement.
They also specifically decided not to patent it, and to share the
technology, so other makers could use this safety system. Similarly,
Saab has come up with dozens of innovations which they likewise have
decided not to be exclusive on.

The approach of "force everyone to buy a product that they can only get
from us" is, I think, the biggest problem. The quality control and
design problems are secondary.

Upscale wrote:
"Todd the wood junkie" wrote in message
I don't own a saw stop, nor will I in the foreseeable future. I just
want to show some appreciation for all you 'beta' testers out there
helping to mature the technology. I think it's a great idea, and if it
can be proven to not misfire 99.9999 percent of the time, I would
certainly get one on my next table saw, 100 years from now.

Tell me, aside from a few calculations on your computer, what do you own
that is 99.9999% effective? Name one thing.

Computer hard drives. MTBF 500,000 hours.

http://www.byteandswitch.com/document.asp?doc_id=28069

Dave Hinz wrote:

On Wed, 21 Dec 2005 11:44:24 -0500, alexy wrote:

Do you also avoid wearing seat belts, since they do not prevent death
or serious injury in every accident? How about airbags, which have
been known to CAUSE injuries. No, I don't think that perfection is the
right standard for removing from the novelty category.

If the sawstop people had just marketed their product as a safety
device, I might have agreed that this is a good analogy. After all, any
automaker can add a seat belt to their cars. However, their tactic was
to try to get the government to _force_ saws to be sold with their
exclusively patented device.

Actually, while I am AGAINST gov't mandates in this instance, remember
that both seatbelts and airbags appeared as voluntary items only very
briefly before they were mandated (and are airbags mandated, or just
effectively so from the "passive restraint" regs?). And those for
mandated sawstop technology will correctly point out that airbags were
affordable only on Mercedes-class cars before mandates, but now add
not that much cost to a $10,000 car.

Where the analogy breaks down in my opinion is the inability to apply
this technology to very inexpensive saws. How do you add this to a
$150 bench-top "table saw"?
--
Alex -- Replace "nospam" with "mail" to reply by email. Checked infrequently.

On Wed, 21 Dec 2005 12:06:33 -0500, alexy wrote:
Dave Hinz wrote:

If the sawstop people had just marketed their product as a safety
device, I might have agreed that this is a good analogy. After all, any
automaker can add a seat belt to their cars. However, their tactic was
to try to get the government to _force_ saws to be sold with their
exclusively patented device.

Actually, while I am AGAINST gov't mandates in this instance, remember
that both seatbelts and airbags appeared as voluntary items only very
briefly

If you mean "several decades" as "very briefly", then yes.

before they were mandated (and are airbags mandated, or just
effectively so from the "passive restraint" regs?).

Automatic front seatbelts, _or_ airbags, became mandated in 1988 or so.
Airbags suck much less than automatic front seatbelts - the ones mounted
to the doors were particularly useless, since if the doors popped open,
just when you needed the seatbelt to keep you in the car, it wasn't
there.

And those for
mandated sawstop technology will correctly point out that airbags were
affordable only on Mercedes-class cars before mandates, but now add
not that much cost to a $10,000 car.

Well, if they get the technology solid, then let's talk. I'm not
holding my breath.

Where the analogy breaks down in my opinion is the inability to apply
this technology to very inexpensive saws. How do you add this to a
$150 bench-top "table saw"?

You don't. But that's not in their business model, so they don't care.

"Todd the wood junkie" wrote in message
oups.com...
Snip


Right now, I think #3 above is the prevailing market. If you are
implying that a regular saw isn't as safe, then you have missed my
point. What I am saying is that if this new technology is to be
effective, it must be invisible to any user until needed.

I think it is. It has its acute problem right now but that is to be
expected. So far the problem is a nusence.


When needed
it MUST work right as intended every time, and forget about legal usage
disclaimers. To put any kind of usage disclaimers goes against a large
portion of what I would consider the long term target market.

Until it delivers perfectly against the perceived image, it is purely a
novelty.

I bet Joe would beg to differ with you since the saw just saved one of his
employees thumbs by working as advertised.
If the safety feature never works correctly to prevent an injury again Joe
is ahead of the game.

"alexy" wrote in message
Where the analogy breaks down in my opinion is the inability to apply
this technology to very inexpensive saws. How do you add this to a
$150 bench-top "table saw"?

Same way you do it with the expensive saw, only cheaper. Look around you at
anything electronic, many appliances, etc. They are much cheaper now that
the were some years ago. My first bedroom size 6000 Btu AC was over $150 40
years ago. Today I can buy one for $99. Standard features in an economy
car today are better than luxury cars of the past.

Improved design, higher volume to justify new tooling and the price will
come down quite a bit in a few years.

alexy wrote:

"Todd the wood junkie" wrote:


Let's not kid ourselves for one second. The underlying perception of
the sawstop is to prevent accidental injury when flesh contacts the
blade. SUPER IDEA in every sincerity. If I were to create a business
plan on an idea like this, it would be to open a table saw to several
new markets of users:

1. Those who use tablesaws regularly and want that extra insurance in
case of a mistep.
2. Those who would never have purchased a cabinet saw, but would now
feel protected and safe from harm (until they realize a saw stop can
still throw wood back at them).
3. Those who want something different than anyone else (short term)

Right now, I think #3 above is the prevailing market. If you are
implying that a regular saw isn't as safe, then you have missed my
point. What I am saying is that if this new technology is to be
effective, it must be invisible to any user until needed. When needed
it MUST work right as intended every time, and forget about legal usage
disclaimers. To put any kind of usage disclaimers goes against a large
portion of what I would consider the long term target market.

Until it delivers perfectly against the perceived image, it is purely a
novelty.


Do you also avoid wearing seat belts, since they do not prevent death
or serious injury in every accident? How about airbags, which have
been known to CAUSE injuries. No, I don't think that perfection is the
right standard for removing from the novelty category.

Now whether it is sufficiently effective, I don't know; I'm just
quibbling with the idea that perfection should be the standard.


Having a tire blowout or getting wiped out by some airhead chatting on a
cell phone while piloting her SUV 20 MPH over the speed limit is not in
the same category as a usually self-inflicted wound at a table saw.
While woodworking YOU are in charge of what you are doing. On the open
road you are at the mercy of others, as well as a mechanical failure. I
don't know of many (if ANY) finger loses due SOLELY to mechanical
failure of a table saw. If I'm wrong, enlighten me. I'll stick with my
Unisaw for now...

Dave

Larry Bud wrote:


Computer hard drives. MTBF 500,000 hours.

http://www.byteandswitch.com/document.asp?doc_id=28069

So how come one of my hard drives went kaput within 6 years, from
intermittent use?

Dave