"David" wrote in message
...
Larry Bud wrote:


Computer hard drives. MTBF 500,000 hours.

http://www.byteandswitch.com/document.asp?doc_id=28069

So how come one of my hard drives went kaput within 6 years, from
intermittent use?

Dave

You are on the wrong side of the "Mean" time. Some other user has a hard
drive that will last 63 years to offset your loss.

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:

"David" wrote in message
...

Larry Bud wrote:



Computer hard drives. MTBF 500,000 hours.

http://www.byteandswitch.com/document.asp?doc_id=28069


So how come one of my hard drives went kaput within 6 years, from
intermittent use?

Dave


You are on the wrong side of the "Mean" time. Some other user has a hard
drive that will last 63 years to offset your loss.


Hmm...a drive that can last 63 years, but is obsolete within 63 days of
purchase. Every time I've purchased a HD, within a couple of weeks,
there's a newer model that boasts much larger capacity for less money.
Dave

Dave Hinz said:

If the sawstop people had just marketed their product as a safety
device, I might have agreed that this is a good analogy. After all, any
automaker can add a seat belt to their cars. However, their tactic was
to try to get the government to _force_ saws to be sold with their
exclusively patented device.

Contrast this to the mentality of automakers like Mercedes and Saab -
Mercedes invented "crumple zones". It's a great safety improvement.
They also specifically decided not to patent it, and to share the
technology, so other makers could use this safety system. Similarly,
Saab has come up with dozens of innovations which they likewise have
decided not to be exclusive on.

The approach of "force everyone to buy a product that they can only get
from us" is, I think, the biggest problem. The quality control and
design problems are secondary.

Although their initial marketing approach was a bit (!) antagonistic,
our marketplace IS based on capitalism. This was a small group of
individuals who wanted to make a few bucks on their idea. They
initially approached other manufacturers and were turned down.
Admittedly, I don't know the figures they requested for the license on
their device - perhaps they were just to greedy. It's not even a new
technology, per se - only it's application to tablesaws.

But Imagine the flack if you tried to deny Thomas Edison or Steven
Jobs a profit on their 'inventions'.

FWIW,

Greg G.

On Wed, 21 Dec 2005 15:53:05 -0500, Greg G wrote:
Dave Hinz said:

If the sawstop people had just marketed their product as a safety
device, I might have agreed that this is a good analogy. After all, any
automaker can add a seat belt to their cars. However, their tactic was
to try to get the government to _force_ saws to be sold with their
exclusively patented device.

Although their initial marketing approach was a bit (!) antagonistic,
our marketplace IS based on capitalism.

Yes, as in "free market". Make something good and people will choose to
buy it. Not "make something not so good and force people to buy it".

But Imagine the flack if you tried to deny Thomas Edison or Steven
Jobs a profit on their 'inventions'.

How is that even related? Nobody forces you to buy GE lightbulbs, or
Apple computers.

Dave Hinz said:

The approach of "force everyone to buy a product that they can only get
from us" is, I think, the biggest problem. The quality control and
design problems are secondary.


Hummm. The current guards on all TS's all look the same. I wonder why?
Could it be because these safety decvces are mandated also befor many of us
were around?

Dave Hinz said:

On Wed, 21 Dec 2005 15:53:05 -0500, Greg G wrote:

But Imagine the flack if you tried to deny Thomas Edison or Steven
Jobs a profit on their 'inventions'.

How is that even related? Nobody forces you to buy GE lightbulbs, or
Apple computers.

It was derived from this statement, which was snipped:

Contrast this to the mentality of automakers like Mercedes and Saab -
Mercedes invented "crumple zones". It's a great safety improvement.
They also specifically decided not to patent it, and to share the
technology, so other makers could use this safety system. Similarly,
Saab has come up with dozens of innovations which they likewise have
decided not to be exclusive on.

Your comparison of mentalities implies that they should have donated
the idea to the market in a good-will effort rather than obtain a
patent and earn a profit. I doubt they have the resources of MB or
Saab, or for that matter, Delta/Pentair - only an idea they wanted to
capitalize on.

And no, I don't own one, and probably never will.
And I agree that their marketing technique was heavy handed.
Avarice rules - even under the guise of public safety.


Greg G.

In article , Leon
wrote:

Hummm. The current guards on all TS's all look the same. I wonder why?
Could it be because these safety decvces are mandated also befor many of us
were around?

Were they?

--
The moral difference between a soldier and a civilian is that the soldier
accepts personal responsibility for the safety of the body politic of which he
is a member. The civilian does not. ‹ Robert A. Heinlein

On Wed, 21 Dec 2005 16:22:13 -0500, Greg G wrote:
Dave Hinz said:

How is that even related? Nobody forces you to buy GE lightbulbs, or
Apple computers.

It was derived from this statement, which was snipped:

Contrast this to the mentality of automakers like Mercedes and Saab -
Mercedes invented "crumple zones". It's a great safety improvement.

Your comparison of mentalities implies that they should have donated
the idea to the market in a good-will effort rather than obtain a
patent and earn a profit. I doubt they have the resources of MB or
Saab, or for that matter, Delta/Pentair - only an idea they wanted to
capitalize on.

OK, one of us is missing the other's point, and I'm not sure who. What
I was trying to get at, is that Mercedes didn't then patent crumple
zones and lobby the government to force all cars sold to have crumple
zones. The effect would have been to force everyone to buy Mercedes
cars. They didn't do that.

And no, I don't own one, and probably never will.
And I agree that their marketing technique was heavy handed.
Avarice rules - even under the guise of public safety.

Yup. Luckily it wasn't mandated and we have the choice.

"Dave Balderstone" wrote in message
tone.ca...
In article , Leon
wrote:

Hummm. The current guards on all TS's all look the same. I wonder why?
Could it be because these safety decvces are mandated also befor many of
us
were around?

Were they?


I don't know. That is why I was asking. Since most every saw has that
inefficient design I suspect that it was. I have never seen a saw come with
out that style guard. Even the Saw Stop has it IIRC.

Leon said:

I don't know. That is why I was asking. Since most every saw has that
inefficient design I suspect that it was. I have never seen a saw come with
out that style guard. Even the Saw Stop has it IIRC.

Powermatic 66 has a different style design. ;-)
I like it better than the clumsy things that come on the other saws.


Greg G.

"Greg G." wrote in message
...
Leon said:

I don't know. That is why I was asking. Since most every saw has that
inefficient design I suspect that it was. I have never seen a saw come
with
out that style guard. Even the Saw Stop has it IIRC.

Powermatic 66 has a different style design. ;-)
I like it better than the clumsy things that come on the other saws.


Different but basically the same. I was thinking that it was indeed
different but it still comes up from the back and covers the blade. Can't
be used when cutting dado's.
I do see however that the newly designed saw comes with a riving knife.

Leon said:


"Greg G." wrote in message
.. .
Leon said:

I don't know. That is why I was asking. Since most every saw has that
inefficient design I suspect that it was. I have never seen a saw come
with
out that style guard. Even the Saw Stop has it IIRC.

Powermatic 66 has a different style design. ;-)
I like it better than the clumsy things that come on the other saws.


Different but basically the same. I was thinking that it was indeed
different but it still comes up from the back and covers the blade. Can't
be used when cutting dado's.
I do see however that the newly designed saw comes with a riving knife.

OK, I see what you're after now.
Since I don't feel the need to use a guard when cutting dados or using
a sled, I hadn't thought of that aspect. But since dados are not
through cuts, it would require an over-arm type, like the Beisemeyer
and others - or an overhead mount. They're prolly never going to
include those types as standard equipment.

But they should ALL include a pop-out riving knife that tracks the
blade height.

FWIW,

Greg G.

On 12/21/2005 1:30 PM Edwin Pawlowski mumbled something about the following:
"David" wrote in message
...
Larry Bud wrote:


Computer hard drives. MTBF 500,000 hours.

http://www.byteandswitch.com/document.asp?doc_id=28069

So how come one of my hard drives went kaput within 6 years, from
intermittent use?

Dave

You are on the wrong side of the "Mean" time. Some other user has a hard
drive that will last 63 years to offset your loss.



That would be me heading in that direction. I have a hard drive that
I've owned for 12 years now, has been in several different computers
over the years, runs constantly, and still not one single new bad sector
since I brought it home. Typically, I don't keep old hard drives like
this because they're too old and too small, but a firewall doesn't need
speed or size, it just needs to load and log (I've thought of building a
CD-ROM version of this firewall that syslogs to another system).

--
Odinn
RCOS #7 SENS BS ???

"The more I study religions the more I am convinced that man never
worshiped anything but himself." -- Sir Richard Francis Burton

Reeky's unofficial homepage ... http://www.reeky.org
'03 FLHTI ........... http://www.sloanclan.org/gallery/ElectraGlide
'97 VN1500D ......... http://www.sloanclan.org/gallery/VulcanClassic
Atlanta Biker Net ... http://www.atlantabiker.net
Vulcan Riders Assoc . http://www.vulcanriders.org

rot13 to reply

"Leon" wrote in message
...

"Robin Lee" wrote in message
.. .



If it prevents 1 injury, it'll be worth it. We've had 1 injury
already....
and it was a guy with decades of experience. It just takes a second....


Oh, so you and your crew are not immortal or incapable or making a mistake
either. There are some people that think that they are. LOL


Hi Leon -

Everyone makes mistakes... it's how you fix 'em that counts.

Statistics are what makes getting bigger less fun. With about 1000 people
employed, those 1 in 1000 events happen with some regularity ...

We're still installing 1 Sawstop per month, until all the other saws are
gone. So far so good - and no misfires. Our staff really like the saw.

Cheers -

Rob

"Robin Lee" wrote in message
.. .

Hi Leon -

Everyone makes mistakes... it's how you fix 'em that counts.

And or what you do to help prevent them.


Statistics are what makes getting bigger less fun. With about 1000 people
employed, those 1 in 1000 events happen with some regularity ...


Way too often I am sure.

We're still installing 1 Sawstop per month, until all the other saws are
gone. So far so good - and no misfires. Our staff really like the saw.

Cheers -

Rob

Robin Lee wrote:

We're still installing 1 Sawstop per month, until all the other saws are
gone. So far so good - and no misfires. Our staff really like the saw.

Um, what's happening with the old saws?

er
--
email not valid

"Enoch Root" wrote in message
news:aZudnbsiJJf3jcfZnZ2dnUVZ_vWdnZ2d@forethought. net...
Robin Lee wrote:

We're still installing 1 Sawstop per month, until all the other saws are
gone. So far so good - and no misfires. Our staff really like the saw.

Um, what's happening with the old saws?

er

All the ten-year-old 5hp Unisaws with 50" Bies fences
are being scrapped out, due to high scrapmetal prices and
the lawyer's liability recommendations. If they're
replaced with SawStops, which are obviously safer,
then we could be held liable for reselling obviously unsafe
equipment.

Let the games begin...

"Chip"
....who is obviously kidding.

"Chip Chester" wrote in message
.. .
er

All the ten-year-old 5hp Unisaws with 50" Bies fences
are being scrapped out, due to high scrapmetal prices and
the lawyer's liability recommendations. If they're
replaced with SawStops, which are obviously safer,
then we could be held liable for reselling obviously unsafe
equipment.

Let the games begin...

"Chip"
...who is obviously kidding.

That would probably be totally on point in the U.S..

The scrap dealer will undoubtedly be willing to negotiate, and
probably has people who regularly look for machine tools.

Chip Chester wrote:

All the ten-year-old 5hp Unisaws with 50" Bies fences
are being scrapped out, due to high scrapmetal prices and
the lawyer's liability recommendations. If they're
replaced with SawStops, which are obviously safer,
then we could be held liable for reselling obviously unsafe
equipment.

"Enoch Root" wrote in message

Um, what's happening with the old saws?


He paid me $800 per unit to haul them away.

Robin Lee wrote:

We're still installing 1 Sawstop per month, until all the other saws are
gone. So far so good - and no misfires. Our staff really like the saw.

Rob,

Does this mean that Lee Valley might start dealing with SawStop-specific
accessories such as zero-clearance inserts, sliding tables, etc.?

I hope, I hope.

Larry

Larry Spitz wrote:
=
Does this mean that Lee Valley might start dealing with SawStop-specific
accessories such as zero-clearance inserts, sliding tables, etc.?

The local store has an Excalibur table mounted to their SawStop. Works
fine and isn't saw-specific.

Chris

hello,

We're still installing 1 Sawstop per month, until all the other saws are
gone. So far so good - and no misfires. Our staff really like the saw.

Does that mean that you are selling cheap but good 2nd hand saws?

cyrille, interested...

"Cyrille de Brébisson" wrote in message
...
hello,

We're still installing 1 Sawstop per month, until all the other saws are
gone. So far so good - and no misfires. Our staff really like the saw.

Does that mean that you are selling cheap but good 2nd hand saws?

cyrille, interested...



Hi Cyrille (and Enoch) -

Yes - we'll be selling the saws we have...not sure how we're doing it
though... will ask!

Cheers -

Rob

"Robin Lee" wrote in message
.. .
snip

Hi Cyrille (and Enoch) -

Yes - we'll be selling the saws we have...not sure how we're doing it
though... will ask!

Cheers -

Rob



Hi -

Sorry guys - looks like most of the saws are spoken for (by employees)...

Cheers -

Rob