How come a simple skinny plain turned wood spindle with visible tool
marks and a pinched mouth often earns "Oh! Very Artful, Arch".... but If
I add my best finish and a candle cup or lamp harp to the same turning,
I get, "nice candlestick" or "good lamp" in ho-hum sotto voce?

If woodturning in the larger craft/art arena is so small, but within it
are several very active net forums and numerous and widespread websites,
why is it that I recognize so few of you at symposia or large meetings?
Maybe lapel name cards should be in larger print or pinned where they
can be seen. Or just maybe, I need a better memory and new glasses.

I think of rcw as a worldwide list of persons sharing a mutual interest,
but in no way as a consensus group. This forum is composed of
individuals and is certainly not a committee. Is that the reason why we
have little impact on the tools and equipment manufacturers offer us?
Or does our impotence have more to do with more important influences
being market constraints, investor's profits, designers bias and
engineer's inflexibility? Probably few of them turn wood, while most of
us have at least one "why don't they".

While I'm at it, what do some of you wish they would make for us or what
do you think might improve their extant products?


Turn to Safety, Arch
Fortiter



http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings

Arch wrote:

How come a simple skinny plain turned wood spindle with visible tool
marks and a pinched mouth often earns "Oh! Very Artful, Arch".... but If
I add my best finish and a candle cup or lamp harp to the same turning,
I get, "nice candlestick" or "good lamp" in ho-hum sotto voce?

My daughter tells me that there is a saying in the prospecting and
exploration business: "The best drill hole is the one you haven't
drilled yet!" -- or words to that effect.

Perhaps it is because at that stage we can see the potential -- what
might be. Later we see what is -- and the mystery is gone.

The best lamp (bowl etc.) is the one you haven't made yet.

Perhaps the burl is best uncut -- there it has the most potential -- and
our work devalues it. :-)


If woodturning in the larger craft/art arena is so small, but within it
are several very active net forums and numerous and widespread websites,
why is it that I recognize so few of you at symposia or large meetings?
Maybe lapel name cards should be in larger print or pinned where they
can be seen. Or just maybe, I need a better memory and new glasses.


Here we are concentrated -- there we are few.

I think of rcw as a worldwide list of persons sharing a mutual interest,
but in no way as a consensus group. This forum is composed of
individuals and is certainly not a committee. Is that the reason why we
have little impact on the tools and equipment manufacturers offer us?
Or does our impotence have more to do with more important influences
being market constraints, investor's profits, designers bias and
engineer's inflexibility? Probably few of them turn wood, while most of
us have at least one "why don't they".


If we had consistency of methodology, need, customer requirements and
desire, then it would be like manufacturing. Without consensus on at
least methodology we have craft and art. What do _you_ want?

Without consensus, and if that does mean we have art, then there will be
no agreement on the "best" way to do something. Hence there will be less
standardization of tools and methods than there could be otherwise.

If we have art then we have the freedom to express ourselves.

It is the inaccuracies of the standard woodworking lathe that give us
freedom while it robs us of our ability to repeat operations accurately
and precisely =- a fair trade in my mind. (You pays your money and yah
takes your choice.)

(I see no right answer(s) BTW.)


While I'm at it, what do some of you wish they would make for us or what
do you think might improve their extant products?


A self guided skew?

The guys in NZ giving free tools to (un)deserving newbies? (Just to
evaluate for a few years...)

Lots of other things -- mostly unobtainable and not worth mentioning.
(e.g. A trophy wife/mistress? --Providing SWMBO gives permission... both
probably unobtainable singly or in conjunction.)


Turn to Safety, Arch
Fortiter



http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings


You make my head hurt. LOL

--
Will
Occasional Techno-geek
http://woodwork.pmccl.com

WillR wrote:
snip Perhaps the burl is best uncut -- there it has the most
potential -- and our work devalues it. :-)
snip

Interesting. IIRC, the Tau speaks of "The Uncarved Block" as
approaching perfection, if not actually *being* perfect, because therin
lies *all* the potential.

Note: It wasn't my intention to turn this into a religious thread!

Hal

I have talked to a few professionals about why they use the tools they
do. My impression is that not too many go fo the "new" tools on the
block, but stick with tried and true. Their innovations are generally
(but not always) modifications on existing tools.

When I have had a chance to talk to tool vendors, they have often
seemed frustrated that they can't get the big names to try and/or adopt
their tools. Consequently, these tools often do not get the
endorsements that tool vendors would like.

I had a lengthy conversion once with Mike Mahoney about hollowing
tools. Mike still uses Stewart or Stewart-like armbrace tools to
hollow his vessels. When I asked about cutting tools like Exocet (I'm
an Exocet fan), Mikes response was that for his production environment,
speed is everything and nothing he has found beats what he uses.

This leads to the dilemma of how a tool manufacturer gets to the masses
with their tools. One solution is the "every man" turner, Lyn
Mangiameli. Lyn is a prolific writer and is constantly evaluating
tools, accessories, etc. What does mean? Tool makers listen to him
and seek out his counsel. So, Lyn, representing "every turner", does
make a difference on our behalf.

Can the rest of us make a difference collectively or as individuals? I
think the answer is YES. This group spawned the very popular "World of
Woodturners" website as a method for us to post photos of our work. It
has become a turning force of its own renown and now boasts a logo
shirt (which many of us will wear to the KC AAW symposium as an
identifier). Lyn found his voice here first. Many new, "name" turners
found their early fame here too, such as Art Liestman and Andi Wolfe.
Did we make them the great turners they are? Maybe not, but I'll bet
they would give some attribution to the friendships and information
they have found here as part of their development.

Every time we write a book review or comment on a tool, we influence
buying decisions. We encourage and guide the new turners who seek our
advice on tools, lathes, wood and finishes. We promote good and bad
experiences with demonstrators.

Impotence, Arch? No way. Nice candlestick.

Joe Fleming - San Diego

On Sun, 20 Mar 2005 12:13:45 -0500, (Arch) wrote:

How come a simple skinny plain turned wood spindle with visible tool
marks and a pinched mouth often earns "Oh! Very Artful, Arch".... but If
I add my best finish and a candle cup or lamp harp to the same turning,
I get, "nice candlestick" or "good lamp" in ho-hum sotto voce?

If woodturning in the larger craft/art arena is so small, but within it
are several very active net forums and numerous and widespread websites,
why is it that I recognize so few of you at symposia or large meetings?
Maybe lapel name cards should be in larger print or pinned where they
can be seen. Or just maybe, I need a better memory and new glasses.

I think of rcw as a worldwide list of persons sharing a mutual interest,
but in no way as a consensus group. This forum is composed of
individuals and is certainly not a committee. Is that the reason why we
have little impact on the tools and equipment manufacturers offer us?
Or does our impotence have more to do with more important influences
being market constraints, investor's profits, designers bias and
engineer's inflexibility? Probably few of them turn wood, while most of
us have at least one "why don't they".

While I'm at it, what do some of you wish they would make for us or what
do you think might improve their extant products?


Turn to Safety, Arch
Fortiter



http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings

Arch.. as an extension to that muse, (is that a word?), how come that very same
wood spindle or a bowl with tool and sanding marks will get much more "ohs and
ahs" than a finely crafted and finished jewelry box or some other "flat wood"
project?

IMO, producing a good looking wood turning is much easier than producing a good
looking flat wood project, but folks seem to love the turned stuff..
(lucky for me, as my flat wood work is **** poor)



mac

Please remove splinters before emailing

Joe Fleming wrote:
When I have had a chance to talk to tool vendors, they have often
seemed frustrated that they can't get the big names to try and/or adopt
their tools. Consequently, these tools often do not get the
endorsements that tool vendors would like.

I often get the impression that many new tools are designed to fix
problems that don't really exist. They are typically aimed at novices
who will gladly buy a new tool if they are told it will turn them into a
great woodturner. I have one or two such tools on my rack that have been
collecting dust since my early days.

Some of the biggest rip-offs (IMO) often bear the name of a big name
turner. Typically they are a standard tool with a special grind that is
probably going to be lost the first time it is sharpened. The only
turner I know who has done this right is Melvyn Firmager who sells
pewter models of his special grinds for you to compare against your
latest grinding efforts.

There is a lot of BS in tool catalogs. How many of them show a cross
section of a tool? After all, this is what you are really buying. You
are stuck with this until the tool is too short to use. The fancy grind
is only a convenience in that it may save a bit of grinding time to
start with, but essentially is a very short lived feature of the new tool.


--
Derek Andrews, woodturner

http://www.seafoamwoodturning.com
http://chipshop.blogspot.com
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/toolrest/

If some of my musings are considered to be (benign) trolls, as well they
may be, I am glad to have pried up three thought provoking responses,
thanks to Will, Hal and Joe.

I wish that all turning tools would come with smooth shank edges or all
lathes would come with hardened tool rests. Or should I be careful in
what I wish for?


Turn to Safety, Arch
Fortiter



http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings

Thanks for two more good posts.

Mac, even worse for 'flatties' than the unfair advantages 'rounders'
enjoy are the joints high priced surgeons make. Their sloppy joints grow
together, but furniture joints must be 'precise' from the start.

Dereck, Maybe woodturners should melt down all their useless Whimdings
and recast them as the mother of all furniture maker's tools, but they
will just return the favor. I'll refrain from crossposting.


Turn to Safety, Arch
Fortiter



http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings

On Sun, 20 Mar 2005 14:33:21 -0800, Arch wrote
(in message ):

I wish that all turning tools would come with smooth shank edges or all
lathes would come with hardened tool rests. Or should I be careful in
what I wish for?


yes! hardened tool rests, thats a good one. how bout chromed bed ways?

rockhound wrote:

On Sun, 20 Mar 2005 14:33:21 -0800, Arch wrote
(in message ):

I wish that all turning tools would come with smooth shank edges or all
lathes would come with hardened tool rests. Or should I be careful in
what I wish for?


yes! hardened tool rests, thats a good one.

how bout chromed bed ways?

Messy when they get dinged.

When thanks are sincere, one ought to get the name right. Thanks Derek.


Turn to Safety, Arch
Fortiter



http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings

You can smooth the edges of your parting tools, skews, etc. easily
enough on a grinding wheel and they won't hurt the way the tools work.
Then a file does what needs to be done on the tool rest. And it might be
worthwhile to consider a tool rest an easily replaceable item.

I've been thinking about using 2 12" rests, one for rough work and one
for finish work. It doesn't take a second to swap them out.

Bill

rockhound wrote:
On Sun, 20 Mar 2005 14:33:21 -0800, Arch wrote
(in message ):


I wish that all turning tools would come with smooth shank edges or all
lathes would come with hardened tool rests. Or should I be careful in
what I wish for?



yes! hardened tool rests, thats a good one. how bout chromed bed ways?

"Arch" wrote in message
...
If some of my musings are considered to be (benign) trolls, as well they
may be, I am glad to have pried up three thought provoking responses,
thanks to Will, Hal and Joe.

I wish that all turning tools would come with smooth shank edges or all
lathes would come with hardened tool rests. Or should I be careful in
what I wish for?
============================
Arch,
I attached a length of 1/4 inch M4 HSS to the top of my toolrest. Brazed at
end points, then filleted the area in center with steel reenforced epoxy.
Slick and durable. Some loss of hardness was probably incurred at the ends,
but not noticeable in use ... so far.

Ken Moon
Webberville, TX

Hal:

wrote:
WillR wrote:
snip Perhaps the burl is best uncut -- there it has the most
potential -- and our work devalues it. :-)
snip

Interesting. IIRC, the Tau speaks of "The Uncarved Block" as
approaching perfection, if not actually *being* perfect, because therin
lies *all* the potential.

Assuming there is only possibility that would be worth achieving -- if
only we could see it. But what if there were many? How are we to know
which one we have seen? That's the trouble with (advantage of) being a
philosopher -- you can see the tree of possibilities... But then you
need the skill to realize the possibilities (possibility) seen --
troubling in some ways.

I have seen the work of at least one turner who understands this
instinctively I am sure -- judging by the work I viewed... And judging
by the web sites viewed, many turners in their group have surely
achieved this perfection in some or much of their work.

Note: It wasn't my intention to turn this into a religious thread!

Hal


Had to think about this one... :-)

Hadn't really thought about the Tau -- just a couple of off the cuff
comments. Next time I will quote Sun Tzu -- as surely we all feel it is
a battle at one time or another. :-)

Anyone who carves or turns must have these very thoughts at times....
Not sure that you could avoid it.

If you are not sure that this could be so... Then think about this...

What if you could have all the time and money you wanted -- but you
could only have Poplar (or Basswood) blanks to turn -- no knots -- only
clear grain. Would you be happy? Would it limit your artistic abilities?
Could you deal with the subtleties and still find satisfaction?
Minimalists need not answer...

What type of turner or carver are you? Do you "reveal the hidden form"?
Do you imagine a possibility and find the wood with the right character
to achieve your goal? Or do you "switch-hit" and flow with what
confronts you of the two previous possibilities? I won't even ask if you
impose your will on a piece of wood --as only us newbies would make that
error in judgment -- usually through inexperience. :-)

If a tree trunk with burled sections fell in the forest and there
existed no one to turn it -- would it be a burl? (Solipsists only to
comment please!)



--
Will
Occasional Techno-geek
http://woodwork.pmccl.com

Were I a solipsist, No one else could exist to turn a burl which you
can't imagine.

This is getting out of hand and I've gotten way over my head, so back to
less topical queries: why with what they cost, do _we_ have to grind
tool shank edges and put hard steel on tool rests?


Turn to Safety, Arch
Fortiter



http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings

On Sun, 20 Mar 2005 16:47:11 -0800, rockhound wrote:

On Sun, 20 Mar 2005 14:33:21 -0800, Arch wrote
(in message ):

I wish that all turning tools would come with smooth shank edges or all
lathes would come with hardened tool rests. Or should I be careful in
what I wish for?


yes! hardened tool rests, thats a good one. how bout chromed bed ways?

electromagnets on the tail stock & tool rest ways? *g*
Slide in place and activate... sucker doesn't move until you deactivate..


mac

Please remove splinters before emailing

On Mon, 21 Mar 2005 01:35:20 GMT, Bill Rubenstein wrote:

You can smooth the edges of your parting tools, skews, etc. easily
enough on a grinding wheel and they won't hurt the way the tools work.
Then a file does what needs to be done on the tool rest. And it might be
worthwhile to consider a tool rest an easily replaceable item.

I've been thinking about using 2 12" rests, one for rough work and one
for finish work. It doesn't take a second to swap them out.

Bill

or a slide on cover for the "dingable" surfaces?

snip


mac

Please remove splinters before emailing

Arch wrote:
Were I a solipsist, No one else could exist to turn a burl which you
can't imagine.

Reminds me of those infinite mirror painting.... SMOKE ALERT while brain
fizzes...



This is getting out of hand and I've gotten way over my head,

I doubt it! (But if so I can send you a book on "swimming in deep water".)

...so back to
less topical queries: why with what they cost, do _we_ have to grind
tool shank edges and put hard steel on tool rests?


To save a few hundred bucks I will happily take the two minutes per tool
to round the skew edges etc... So my tool rest won't get marked.

Saw the tip here (or on one of the good sites by one of the locals here)
-- re-read my turning books. Said Duh! -- then fixed the tools. LOL

Would of course rather just buy high end tools -- but can't do that all
the time.

Soon though...

Is that more practical?


Turn to Safety, Arch
Fortiter

http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings



--
Will
Occasional Techno-geek

Derek Andrews wrote:

Joe Fleming wrote:

When I have had a chance to talk to tool vendors, they have often
seemed frustrated that they can't get the big names to try and/or adopt
their tools. Consequently, these tools often do not get the
endorsements that tool vendors would like.


I often get the impression that many new tools are designed to fix
problems that don't really exist. They are typically aimed at novices
who will gladly buy a new tool if they are told it will turn them into
a great woodturner. I have one or two such tools on my rack that have
been collecting dust since my early days.

Many of the new tools are designed to scam people for bucks period,
that's there intended purpose. The tool is important but even more so
it knowing how to use it, understanding it. As Gunny Hiway said in
Heartbreak Ridge "Overcome - Adapt - Improvise". Once you do that
you'll be able to tell if you really need a new tool or not.
John

"Bill Rubenstein" wrote in message
.. .
You can smooth the edges of your parting tools, skews, etc. easily
enough on a grinding wheel and they won't hurt the way the tools work.
Then a file does what needs to be done on the tool rest. And it might be
worthwhile to consider a tool rest an easily replaceable item.

I've been thinking about using 2 12" rests, one for rough work and one
for finish work. It doesn't take a second to swap them out.

Bill

rockhound wrote:
On Sun, 20 Mar 2005 14:33:21 -0800, Arch wrote
(in message ):


I wish that all turning tools would come with smooth shank edges or all
lathes would come with hardened tool rests. Or should I be careful in
what I wish for?



yes! hardened tool rests, thats a good one. how bout chromed bed ways?


I'm just slow, I guess.

Why would you whack your toolrest with a tool? I thought you were supposed
to rest them on it before you touched the work.

together, but furniture joints must be 'precise' from the start.


Dont you mean accurate?

Sorry, bad joke
"Michael Lehmann" wrote in message
...


together, but furniture joints must be 'precise' from the start.


Dont you mean accurate?

On Sun, 20 Mar 2005 16:47:11 -0800, rockhound wrote:

On Sun, 20 Mar 2005 14:33:21 -0800, Arch wrote
(in message ):

I wish that all turning tools would come with smooth shank edges or all
lathes would come with hardened tool rests. Or should I be careful in
what I wish for?


yes! hardened tool rests, thats a good one. how bout chromed bed ways?

V-ways to keep that durned tailstock in alignment and tailstock centers
with the correct taper (60 deg, I thunk) for pen mandrels.

Legible gradations on the tailstock ram.

I guess that these aren't actually innovations ... just well-known stuff
that nobody seems to implement.

Bill

Ken Moon wrote:
"Arch" wrote in message
...

If some of my musings are considered to be (benign) trolls, as well they
may be, I am glad to have pried up three thought provoking responses,
thanks to Will, Hal and Joe.

I wish that all turning tools would come with smooth shank edges or all
lathes would come with hardened tool rests. Or should I be careful in
what I wish for?

============================
Arch,
I attached a length of 1/4 inch M4 HSS to the top of my toolrest. Brazed at
end points, then filleted the area in center with steel reenforced epoxy.
Slick and durable. Some loss of hardness was probably incurred at the ends,
but not noticeable in use ... so far.

Ken Moon
Webberville, TX



And when (or if) that wears out, you can just reposition the shaft
another 120 degrees for a new edge, 2 more times.
BTW, where can you get HSS shaft in lengths over 6"?

Ken Grunke
http://www.token.crwoodturner.com/

----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----

"Ken Grunke" wrote in message
...
Ken Moon wrote:
SNIP .....
============================
Arch,
I attached a length of 1/4 inch M4 HSS to the top of my toolrest. Brazed
at end points, then filleted the area in center with steel reenforced
epoxy. Slick and durable. Some loss of hardness was probably incurred at
the ends, but not noticeable in use ... so far.

Ken Moon
Webberville, TX

And when (or if) that wears out, you can just reposition the shaft another
120 degrees for a new edge, 2 more times.
BTW, where can you get HSS shaft in lengths over 6"?

Ken Grunke
========================
Ken,
I got mine from:

Cenco Grinding Corp.
411 Business Park Lane
Allentown, PA. 18103

Phone 610-434-5740

Web Site www.cencogrindding.com

They have stock lengths up to 36 inches in M2 and M42 (sort of an enhanced
M4) in diameters from 1/16 to 1 inch in 1 inch.
(an example from my 5 yr old price sheet; a 1/4 inch X 36 inches M2,
annealed $8.40, hardened and ground, plus/ minus .001", $22.40.) They also
have "semi finished" (hardened, unground) for lower prices. If you're doing
short bits like for an oland tool, a 24 or 36 inch piece will last a LOOOONG
time. :-)

Ken Moon
Webberville, TX